July 9, 2025 • 45 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
What's the difference between shame, guilt, and conviction in the Christian life? This question haunts many believers who struggle to navigate these complex emotions in their spiritual journey.
Jason Glenn returns to unpack these crucial distinctions, revealing that the popular modern psychological framing of these terms often misaligns with biblical understanding. While contemporary culture frequently treats shame as an inherent negative to be eliminated, Scripture presents a more nuanced perspective where shame can serve redemptive purposes.
Our conversation explores biblical guilt as primarily a judicial status rather than an emotion—it's about causality and responsibility before God. Conviction emerges as the Holy Spirit's illuminating work, exposing our hearts and guiding us toward repentance. Shame, meanwhile, addresses our failures in relationship to our identity and community expectations.
We tackle difficult questions about debilitating shame versus healthy contrition. When Christians remain stuck in shame cycles, the problem often isn't shame itself but underlying pride, fear, or the strange comfort found in familiar self-condemnation. The gospel offers freedom from these patterns, though embracing this freedom requires significant faith and courage.
The discussion turns to Jesus' own use of corrective shame in the story of Simon the Pharisee and the sinful woman. While affirming the contrite woman's response to her shame—which brought forgiveness—Jesus exposed Simon's pride through a form of redemptive shame that invited self-reflection.
Whether you've struggled with persistent shame, confused conviction with guilt, or wondered how these emotions fit into your spiritual growth, this episode offers biblical clarity and practical wisdom for your journey toward wholeness in Christ. As Jason reminds us, "We should be more focused on the feeling of shame and less focused on shaming people."
FOLLOW ME ON INSTAGRAM:
@godattachmenthealing
FOLLOW ME ON FACEBOOK:
God Attachment Healing
ABOUT ME 👇
My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
I look forward to walking alongside you as you draw closer to Christ!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
We are moving into episode two,or part two, of our
conversation on shame.
I'm here with Mr Jason Glenn,who is our expert on biblical
shame, and we've had a greatconversation last time about
biblical shame and its role inthe life of the Christian, and
(00:28):
today we're going to talk abouta very important topic, which is
shame, guilt and conviction.
So how do we differentiatebetween these?
Are they different?
What's the role of each one?
And we'll even get into seeinghow this is helpful just for the
church community in general.
But, jason, as always, good tohave you back in.
(00:50):
I mean, we just basicallypaused and got back on.
Here we are.
This is how we do episodes,guys.
This is how it's done.
Same time right here Absolutelyso, yeah, so last time we were
talking about the role of shame,how it influences Christian
life, when it should be used, weended kind of the conversation
on um, how we uh shame, I guess,people, or how we use it in the
(01:18):
context of the church or in theChristian life.
And today, as we're talkingabout this part shame, guilt and
conviction it's, I guess,delineating between those three.
So just to kind of pass theball off to you, jason, when you
hear about these three concepts, they're very closely tied
together, right, and I thinkmost Christians do have a
(01:40):
difficult time discerning.
Is this shame that I'm feelingit guilt?
Is it conviction?
I mean, I see I can see it onboth sides, for one who doesn't
want to make someone feelashamed or wants to maybe
provide a sense of conviction,which only the holy spirit does,
as we know but then there'sother people yeah, and then
(02:00):
there's other people who who itand they oftentimes may feel
ashamed of things that maybedon't require that feeling right
.
So we could talk about, like,those gray areas, like for
someone.
You know, if someone drinks,has a drink, is that?
Should they be feeling shamefor that?
Some cultures do it, or somechurch cultures do that, and
(02:24):
maybe that's a gray area.
I know people have differentstances on that, um, so we'll
talk a little bit about allthose things, but just in
general, uh are, what are thedifferences between these three
terms that we'll be using?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
yeah, um, just let me start with just the biblical uh
understanding, and this is thisis where there's a lot of
misunderstanding, I think, onthis issue, this issue, um.
So, in terms of the actual wordguilt, um, I you know I'm not
the great in pronouncing greekterms, but uh, it itos, uh is.
(03:01):
That is a Greek term that'sused for guilt and it has far
more to do with fault andcausality and a judicial
understanding.
So you see, it used all throughOld Testament and New Testament
(03:23):
in terms of they were guilty ofthis infraction, they were
guilt, they had guilt before theLord because of what they did.
They needed to then perform aguilt offering.
We're speaking of Old Testamentissues here.
They had whole things set upfor various guilt offerings for
(03:47):
various infractions.
You touch a dead animal right,there are various.
You wear the wrong clothing,you come in contact with a woman
in her menstrual cycle thesearen't shameful things, but they
(04:08):
incur guilt, they incur somesort of infraction,
transgression that has to beatoned for.
In the Old Testament and in theNew Testament, again, the guilt
(04:43):
conversation is almostexclusively connected to large
concepts of sin that areaddressed with Jesus and grace.
We are, you know, in our guilt.
He comes and saves us, but it'sreally most of the time that
the New Testament translatessomething as guilt.
It's not the word's not there,it's a context.
(05:04):
They did the wrong thing umwould that be like a
transgression?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
wouldn't that be like ?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
sometimes.
Sometimes it's sin.
Yeah, sometimes it's sinlanguage and they were, they
were caught in their sin and allof a sudden, that's now they
were guilty, right.
And so again, there is a termin the New Testament, but that
term isn't often used and somost of the time it's simply a
(05:39):
reference to a judicial standingbefore God or before a king or
before a people or authorityfigure, and it just is not a
normative concept when it comesto moral infractions that you
(06:03):
feel something about.
It's not a feeling.
It really.
Let's just, let's just clarifythat in the new Testament, guilt
is not a feeling.
It's not nowhere, nowhere is.
Is it really played out, as itis a status you are the cause.
That again, that's you are thecause of the thing.
(06:25):
And they inspected him and hewas found to have not been the
cause.
That'll be the Greek, but inthe translation it'll say he was
found not guilty or no guiltwas found on him.
So that's the sort of use ofguilt and conviction.
(06:47):
You know you already stepped ithome.
It's the Holy Spirit, andthat's the sort of language that
is used in the New Testament isthe Spirit will be sent to come
, and the term that's kind oftranslated conviction is most of
(07:09):
the time like exposureinspection.
Let's see if I wrote downanything else here.
Reproved there's, reproved toconvict.
They will feel convicted intheir heart again in a judicial
stance.
Um, we again the john 16, 8,the holy spirit coming.
(07:33):
That passage, um, firstcorinthians passage uses 14, 24,
when when the, the gathering ofbelievers and an unbeliever
walks in, it uses the termelenco and that is to expose, to
(07:54):
convict.
It has their thoughts exposedand they feel convicted and they
fall on their face and worship,you know, or in repentance.
But yes, it does seem to beconvict, does seem to have that
(08:15):
connotation of an act of God andan inward exposure.
So in some ways it's more.
In some ways it's kind of tiedto both shame and guilt.
Right, the conviction piece.
Yeah, the conviction piece,because it does, it is showing
(08:37):
you your status before theauthority, god, and it is
exposing you to yourself and toothers, and then the whole idea
is that that will cause somesort of contrition in you.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, and I think we addressed this last time too,
and feel free to correct me ifI'm wrong I think the way that
we defined the last time waskind of guilt was this idea of I
did something bad and the shamepart was I am bad, and both of
them have a role in in this walk.
And you know, one of thequestions that comes up for me
(09:22):
when I think about theseparticular concepts is that
there are some people who havethis strong certainty of this is
the Holy Spirit convicting meof this right?
And so it could be.
And this was kind of one of thepoints that I made, I think, in
the last episode was that theycould say I feel so convicted by
(09:45):
the Holy Spirit that Ishouldn't drink alcohol anymore.
Or I feel so convicted by HolySpirit that I shouldn't go visit
my in-laws because they'retoxic, right.
So how do you discern?
Because, again, when someonesays that we know that they're
using an authority, higherauthority, that's being god
right, and that is kind of likethe stamp of approval on their
(10:08):
behavior and this is why you cando that or not do that, right.
So it's hard to argue withsomeone who says, well, this is
what god told me to do, and theword that they'll use.
I feel convicted by it, yeah,and maybe they'll even use it
like I feel convicted in needingto tell you this.
So, yeah, this needs to beaddressed.
So how do we differentiate, Iguess, between the holy spirit's
(10:32):
leading and someone who has auh, either a sensitive or more
stronger, a stronger conscienceabout certain?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
things.
Yeah, you, yeah, I mean of all.
You always take them to thetext and show them what the text
says.
You always take them toscriptures and go here's all.
We have on the subject, um, orhave in the past talked about
(11:07):
the fact that there is asubjective element to our
relationship, our moralrelationship to god.
It's not and because that's abig, that's a big conversation
in christian ethics is objectivemorality right there, there's
right and there's wrong.
Well, yes, but there's alsosubjective wrong before God, and
(11:29):
it relates exactly to whatyou're talking about Eating food
, certain foods, meat.
Paul talks about drinkingalcohol, worshiping on certain
Sabbath days and festival days,or not keeping them or not
keeping them.
The text says that some peopleare extra sensitive, feel
(11:54):
convicted that drinking alcoholis a sin, and then the text says
to them it is a sin.
Right sin right, so I?
And?
And then also says who am I tojudge that person?
Because they answer to god.
(12:14):
So, on the issues of, of, um,ambiguous activities, uh, that
are approved, uh are not.
You know, there are abuses ofthem, but there's nothing,
there's no prohibition againstthem.
However, they are things thatpeople feel convicted not to do,
and we have.
We have things like watchingR-rated movies or, you know,
(12:35):
smoking, smoking cigarettes orcigars or whatever.
There are lots of things in theChristian, even among the
Christian community, where we'relike, yeah, so-and-so doesn't
feel convicted that they can dothat, you know.
Or so-and-so doesn't shop atTarget because, well, target,
you know, has trans bathrooms,you know.
I just I can give themprinciples of freedom from the
(13:02):
text and show them whatScripture says about the those
things, but at the end of theday, I I have to say that's
between them and the holy spirit, and who am I to say that the
holy spirit actually didn'tplace them on, on that
conviction on their heart, um,but I can say, oh, god has
convicted me that I have thefreedom to to date a guy and I'm
(13:22):
a guy and you're like, as amatter of fact, no, because here
we have clear outline textsthat say you cannot do that.
So, yes, we have scripturesthat give clarity to that in
terms of objective truths, andthen we have scriptures that
give clarity to the fact thatthere are subjective convictions
that people can have in theirrelationship with God.
(13:47):
My father and this gets to theshame conversation my father,
when he got saved and I think hewas like 25 years old, he was
an army sergeant and he got outof the army immediately.
He stopped drinking.
He was a drunkard, drank allthe time.
He stopped drinking Immediately.
He stopped drinking.
He was a drunkard, drank allthe time.
He stopped drinking.
He stopped smoking.
He loved cigars.
He stopped everything.
(14:08):
He was a fundamentalist Baptistguy that led him to the Lord
and so he walked into thatcommunity and he, you know, I
think maybe like 10 years later,when he was again like 35, he
was out on a business trip andhe was in his hotel room and he
(14:30):
was lonely and he got a cigarand smoked it.
And my mom told me the story andshe said she, he called me, he
felt sick and, uh, morally, ifhe called me and said that he
had a cigar, and he was like,was that wrong?
(14:51):
I feel horrible, you know,about doing that.
Uh, he felt ashamed, yeah, thatbecause he had a conviction, um
that had lasted, you know, andand he violated that conviction,
um.
So you know, yeah, we can havespirit-led personal convictions
(15:14):
that become a standard in ourlife, that we can transgress and
then feel ashamed abouttransgressing, and it's, it's.
I have to be really careful, asa brother in Christ, to say to
that person you should not feelashamed, because the text
(15:36):
actually says that to them it'sa sin, right, right so they feel
it.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
The text supports that.
The holy spirit is likelyconvicting you of that.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, yeah, I got to be really careful about that Now
.
That doesn't mean that overtime I can't have a conversation
with him, going back into thetext and saying, man, do you, do
you see?
You know what I'm seeing in thetext and I feel like it's not
prohibiting alcohol.
You know and and but again,that may not.
(16:09):
It just may not be worthwhilehaving that conversation and it
may be redundant and it just maymake total sense that they keep
that standard of morality forthemselves.
Plenty of Baptist preachers areteetotalers, not because
they're holding some fine line.
I used to get frustrated withthe president of Southeastern
(16:33):
Baptist Seminary, danny Akin,because he's such a legalist on
this issue, but his dad was anabusive drunkard.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And so you're like I can't blame you for having that
conviction and being ashamed ifyou were to trans, I can't blame
you for that.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
When you shared that about your dad and even this
experience right here,immediately I thought of my dad
and I think one of the questionsthat I had for you that I think
will bring some clarity to thisis can shame be debilitating
for the Christian?
And right, so there's this partof okay, you know you feel
shame.
(17:14):
Hopefully it brings you torepentance, if not, it might
lead you to rebellion andhopefully you come back later.
But there's this other piecetoo, in the middle where it
debilitates Christians frombeing able to grow, and I
thought immediately about my dad.
So my dad, you know he wasdivorced and it happened twice
to him and the first time healready felt a lot of shame and
(17:37):
he communicated to us as hischildren I'm sorry, I messed up,
I could have changed, I couldhave done.
All these different thingsHappens a second time, even more
levels of shame and part ofthat was kind of the
conversation within the churchwas never divorce.
You know, you got to fight foryour marriage and he felt that
and I felt that even as a kidgrowing up, and he just every
single time that we would meetafterwards he would say you know
(18:00):
, I'm still sorry for you knowwhat happened between me and
your mom and you know, and how Iwas as a father and all these
things, and every conversationwas like that Jason, every
single one.
I'm like my dad's never goingto grow if he doesn't let go of
this shame.
And we confirmed him in saying,dad, you know, there's nothing
else you can do.
You've asked us, you'veapologized to us, We've forgiven
(18:23):
you.
You don't need to remind us ofit, but he continued to live in
that, and a big part of that wasthe teaching and also how he
internalized that.
So it wasn't just I didsomething bad.
Then it was I am bad, I'm ahorrible father, I'm a horrible
person, I'm a horrible Christian, all these things.
So it was debilitating for him.
So can you speak a little bitto that?
(18:44):
For maybe Christians who livein shame yeah, and they address
it as conviction, because that'show my dad said it.
He said well, the Lordconvicted me.
I'm like Dad, you're living inshame.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, that's the crux of again, and I think we
briefly touched on this in thelast podcast.
That's the crux of thecontroversy.
The controversy amongchristians, yeah, right, is the
debilitating, and of course, youuse the, the technical term,
which is the best.
That's debilitating, um, theproblem also with that term,
(19:17):
though, is is that, um, shamecan be rightly felt and
debilitating at the same time,and the gospel is enabling, and
people don't want to hear this,but a person that refuses to let
(19:41):
their shame go oftentimes is aperson that refuses to either
understand or act upon thegospel.
They refuse to take onsomething that's new and
unfamiliar and risky, and thegospel is that to people that
(20:09):
have been living in adebilitative state, and so a lot
of this conversation, I think,is oriented in the wrong
direction.
They're like shame is theproblem, shame is the.
Well, I get what you're saying.
That feeling, that feeling, Iget it.
I saw my dad, I saw you know, Ifelt I just I was afraid, I was
(20:33):
proud, I don't want to lose myjob, right, and so I hid my
activities, and so they'll blamethat on shame, but it's
actually pride behind shame.
Hmm, you don't want to be seenin the community as a person
(20:54):
that you've as, as opposite ofthe person that you've been
pretending to be, more that theyunderstand you to be.
It's pride that's actuallykeeping you where you're at, not
necessarily this feeling ofshame.
I'm not saying that shame's notthere and it's not at work, but
(21:15):
I am saying that behind it ispride.
Fear tends to be often behindshame, the foundation of shame.
I am afraid of losing my familyand so therefore, I am.
I don't want to.
I don't want anybody to findout in your father's situation.
(21:37):
That's, that's he.
You know you, everything's outright.
The conversation's been had, um,the truth has been communicated
over and over again.
The truth has been communicatedover and over again.
Guess what it's morecomfortable for a person that
(21:57):
has been living in this shamefulplace?
Oftentimes that's morecomfortable because it's
familiar and they know what toexpect and they've gotten used
to the weight expect, andthey've gotten used to the
weight and sometimes they'veeven dead.
They've been so deadened by thecircumstances that they
actually, lots of times, theydon't actually feel the sham
anymore, even though they theytalk about it right out of out
(22:19):
of you know, out of a sense ofobligation to say something.
Um, but the gospel, uh, whichyou and I know is, is empowering
.
We were like, well, why don'tyou just accept the truth that
you're actually released fromthat shame?
Why don't you accept the truththat you're forgiven completely
(22:40):
for your sins, that you're a newcreation, that all things have
passed away?
All things would be, you know,everything's become new.
Because that takes an enormousamount of faith to some people
and it means stepping in adirection that's unfamiliar and
untrustworthy.
So no, I mean, I just thinkit's far more complex than
(23:02):
simply saying shame's doing itto him.
Man.
How do we get over thisdebilitating shame?
Well then, you better talk tome also about how do you get
over debilitating fear, how doyou get over debilitating pride
and how do you get over the, thehardening of your heart that's
taking place over the years?
yeah, oh yeah, that's good,brother, that's really good but
(23:23):
yes, since they're debilitating,shame for sure, yeah, and but
you, but it's, it's, it's just.
There are other elements thatare involved in that
conversation, that are tied, theother emotions that are tied in
into that, that have to beaddressed.
And if they're not addressed,you're just, you're, you're kind
of just, you're making a littleboogeyman and, and you know,
(23:45):
shooing it away as if that's theonly problem.
And it's not the only problem,you know.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, yeah, and I do, for the audience, want to make
a distinction here, because wewill get to this in the third
episode about theological versustrauma-informed shame.
And there's the shame componentwhere the messaging that you
receive throughout your lifethrough parents, through a
religious leader, through familymembers, whoever the case is,
(24:13):
these things are long-standingand you know, there is this
emotional piece, there is thismental piece, there is this
spiritual piece too, which needsto be addressed.
And I think the factor herethat we're discussing is when we
use scripture and we eithermisunderstand it or misinterpret
it and make that the drivingforce behind everything that we
(24:36):
do.
So, for example, to your point,my dad would take on this
aspect of the passage ofscripture where it says you know
, we're nothing but unclean rags, right, right, you know we're
nothing but unclean rags, right,right and basically so, using
that which we understandtheologically, what that
references, what that meansabout our state before god
(24:57):
there's nothing good in me.
Yeah, there's nothing good in meand all of these things, and so
my dad would often use thatpassage and I've seen other
christians use that as well asthat we're nothing, we're
nothing and therefore I'mnothing.
And they're just kind of stuckthere and feel like they have
nothing to contribute to thelife of others, like my dad's
very well-intended, he's aserviceful guy, he loves being
(25:18):
there for people, but almost tothe point where that's a way of
kind of maybe covering thatshameful part of himself in a
sense's.
It's hard to see it and he doesit with us and we we've talked
about this.
So this is kind of just opentalk, um, but I do see a lot of
christians do that where theysee that shameful, they only
(25:39):
address themselves as thisshameful piece and not so much
as maybe also being sons of godor daughters of god and I almost
hesitate sometimes in sayingthat, because in today's culture
it's almost been glamorizedlike you are a child of god, you
are special, you know sothere's it's not untrue, but the
(26:00):
way that it's been presentedright both sides.
On one it can be very harsh andjudgmental and on the other part
it's too fluffy and maybeunrealistic in a sense.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, I think, gentlemen, like your dad, or
people like your dad, many otherpeople, my own self from time
to time, have these thoughtsright I can see the fruit of the
broken, fleshly old man.
I don't have to have thatproved to me.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I have experienced it .
Speaker 2 (26:37):
It is well established that I am a wretched
human being.
It's well established, right.
I don't have to have somebodycome and talk me into believing
that I'm this horrible person.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
And so in that sense, because you're asking yourself,
right.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
You're asking yourself well, why is it so hard
for me to believe what the Wordof God says about me in Christ
Jesus versus what the Word ofGod says about me in Christ
Jesus, versus what the Word ofGod says about me apart from
Christ Jesus?
Well, because I have felt theease of what it is like to be me
(27:21):
apart from Christ Jesus and Ihave carried that dead man with
me into my relationship withChrist, where I'm said to be a
new creation, and yet the shameof that dead carcass, and say
that's me Versus saying that'sno, and that's why I love that
(28:00):
text.
You know, it is no longer I whosin, but sin that is within me,
right, the old man, the flesh.
The text is clear that inChrist it's talking about this
identity of ours as a dead other.
(28:20):
And it's not me who I am inChrist, it's not the new
creation, me who I am in Christ,it's not the new creation.
But all too often, because it'sso easy to relate with the
sinful fleshly desires andbecause they still come up in
our thoughts and in ourrelationships, it's easy to slip
(28:42):
back into identifying ourselvesas that shameful person rather
than saying I am being shameful,right, I am.
I am doing something shamefulright now, like that old man,
like that old carcass.
Uh, that relates.
(29:02):
And paul paul uses thislanguage, right, yeah, I'm
confident that you guys you know, yeah, you're struggling with
this, but I'm confident thatyou're new creations.
So put it away, put it away,put that old flesh away.
He uses that language, so Ithink.
But the reality of it is, and,of course, in the counseling
(29:25):
industry and rightly so, andpraise God for the good work
that you guys do yes, there aresome individuals that are so
attached to that.
It's Christians that are soattached to that old carcass,
that old, dead person, andsometimes, of course, it has
nothing to do with their actions, has everything to do with what
was done to them, haseverything to do with what was
(29:46):
done to them, but they stillattach themselves to that and
it's so easy to relate to thatthat they don't believe in an
effective way that they can walkin newness of life, because
it's hard.
It's actually hard to walk innewness of life and it takes a
(30:10):
lot of sacrifice and it takes alot of of fighting yourself and
it takes a lot of putting thattrash out of the house, or
watching your mouth, oraccountability, right it.
It's hard and that's what I'msaying In some ways to say that
I'm living with my shame andcarrying with debilitating shame
(30:34):
.
In some ways, that's just theeasiest thing to do, bro.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I definitely agree with that.
I think there are a lot ofChristians who are in that state
of mind.
I think one of the maybe versesthat has been freeing for a lot
of Christians that I've seenthroughout the years has been
Romans 8.1, where it talks aboutthere's therefore now no
condemnation for those who arein Christ.
Jesus and I think so can youelaborate a little bit on that?
(31:03):
Why does Paul emphasize that nocondemnation piece?
Is it referring specifically toshame or guilt, or what is it
referring to?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
This is what I'm talking about.
People have such a boogeyman ofshame right that if I ever
associate it with the Christianlife, I'm somehow projecting
somebody back into their oldflesh, and that's simply not the
way that the text uses shameright.
(31:34):
It uses it as you are doingsomething that is outside of
what is expected of you as aChristian and by your community
in terms of character and youfeel inherently as a Christian.
You might actually feel moreshame as a Christian than you
(31:57):
ever did as a non-Christian.
That's true, yeah, that's agood point, because you have
this ever, should have this everpresence, holy spirit inside of
you, convicting you, exposingyou to yourself right in a
mirror light right, yes, and,and, and it's a peter maybe
(32:19):
you're.
You know, yes, the, the, thedeeds of darkness are exposed to
the light.
Um, so, yeah, you're gonna feelshame.
It's how you, but we'reequipped to, as christians were
equipped to deal with shame,with truth and the presence of
the holy spirit and thecommunity of christ.
(32:40):
Does the community of christoften fail us in that matter?
Yeah, as a matter of fact, theydo.
However, however, join the club.
We fail people constantly aswell, but we do have the
presence of the Holy Spirit andwe do have the Word of God that
does show us.
The condemnation is talkingabout the judicial condemnation.
(33:02):
There is now no longer anyjudicial judgment sending me
apart from God for my sin, toHades, hell, whatever you want
to say.
We are now no longerjudiciously separated from God.
(33:23):
We are married to him.
We are one with him.
However, we're not completelywithout the old man yet.
And this is where shame comes in.
We still have this old flesh,this old man.
Yet and this is where shamecomes in we still have this old
flesh, this old man, with us andwe still act upon it
(33:45):
periodically and that is not whoGod intended us to be.
And we, internally, are goingto feel exposed and disconnected
from ourselves at times andfrom our God at times and from
our community at times.
And how do we deal with that?
As Christians?
We repent, we have contrition,we go crap, lord, I did this
(34:12):
thing again that I used to doand I feel horrible about it
Again.
Some people would like to usethat term guilt, and say, well,
yeah, that's guilt, jason, andthat's all we should ever feel,
and that's just simply notconsistent with the text and it
is an eisegesis versus exegesis.
(34:34):
You're just taking poppsychology in terms of the guilt
dynamics and you're saying Ilike guilt better and so I'm
going to use guilt as the way toaddress my bad feelings about
being a certain way and doingthe same thing I shouldn't do
over and over again.
(34:54):
I just feel guilty about it andI should repent, and that's the
term I'm going to use.
Well, oftentimes you'reactually feeling shame and you
should be feeling shame and youactually should have a contrite
spirit, you should havecontrition and fall on your face
.
I'm going to use this examplebecause, again, recent sermon I
(35:19):
heard, but it's a helpfulnarrative to address a lot of
these things.
The woman comes in, a greatsinner comes in and Jesus is in
a Pharisee's house, simon thePharisee and the woman begins to
(35:41):
weep at his feet and wipes hisfeet with her hair, face down,
wiping his feet with her hair,crying with tears that are
washing his feet.
We know she's a wretched sinner, uh, and we know that she came
(36:05):
in to see jesus into a placethat would normally not have her
and that the people in thatlocation no doubt kept their
distance from her on the dailyand judged her from afar and in
many ways, okay, rightly so, interms of she's living an ungodly
(36:26):
life, she's violating the laws,she's, you know, because the
text says she's a great sinner,right, but she is in the process
of being contrite.
One could read into the textthat she has already felt the
(36:49):
shame and in some ways isfeeling the shame and can't look
Jesus in the eyes.
But she can weep at his feet incontrition and wash his feet
with her tears and her hair.
And then you have Simon.
Doesn't say it out loud, he'snot being improper in terms of
(37:12):
what he says, but in his mind hesays, man, if Jesus knew who
was touching him, he would knowshe's a great sinner.
And Jesus, knowing his thoughtsin front of everybody, said
Simon, I have something to sayto you.
He didn't say anything out loud, he didn't talk to her, he
(37:36):
didn't say anything.
He says, simon, I've gotsomething to say to you.
And he says you know, simon,who is more appreciative of
forgiveness?
The person who's forgiven much,like my friend here, or a
person that's not forgiven much?
And Simon's like, I guess, theperson that's forgiven much,
(37:58):
right.
And so Jesus essentially shameshim publicly.
He says this woman who is fullof sin is washing my feet, and
you didn't even wash my feetwhen I walked in this house.
(38:20):
She is, she is blessing mebeyond what you can fathom, bro,
but you didn't do anything forme when I walked into your house
.
The basic hospitality that ourculture demands because of the
honor shame dynamics, you didn'toffer to me.
You didn't give me anything todrink, you didn't, you didn't
wash my feet, uh, you didn'toffer to me.
You didn't give me anything todrink, you didn't wash my feet,
(38:40):
you didn't give me oil for myhair.
You didn't do any of that, butshe hasn't stopped doing it
since she came in.
He shames Jesus, shames Simon,and because this woman has a
contrite heart, she iscompletely forgiven of her sin.
That's what the text says aboutshame and contrition and
(39:06):
repentance.
And who should feel shame andcarry it?
The person that doesn't thinkthey need it.
They need it in many ways.
The one that is feeling it andis responding with contrition
with it to it.
(39:27):
That person is going to receivethe forgiveness of Christ and
feel that forgiveness and own it.
Yeah Right, there's Simon.
Didn't.
Didn't seem like a guy that wasowning it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, no, that's powerful, brother.
There's this um, as you'resharing that.
There's this concept in theattachment literature that talks
about God image versus Godconcept.
And God image is the experiencethat we have with Christ, the
experiences that we have withhim through people, through the
church and so on.
And God concept is what wethink about God, right, how we
(40:06):
know him, what we've been taughtabout him and so on.
And I think this aspect of shamethat we're talking about within
the church, we're taughtcertain things about God, how
God does these things in thesedifferent settings, this example
that you just gave with Jesusand Simon Peter.
So we have these examples, right, so we see it and we understand
it, but it's not until weexperience it that it does
(40:28):
something to us.
Kind of like the woman in theexample you just used in that
story, where she experiencedJesus in a different level
because she knew how unworthyshe was.
And she experienced Jesus in adifferent level because she knew
how unworthy she was and sheexperienced Jesus in a different
way.
So that would be an example ofthat God image, which we'll get
into in our next topic.
But, yeah, I think this aspectof God uses the church, uses
(40:52):
people in our lives familymembers and so on to communicate
what we need in differentmoments of our lives.
And it could be grace, it couldbe truth, it could be anything,
but he uses people in our livesto bring us to that point, and
sometimes that does includeshame and sometimes it includes
grace.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
So, yeah, I think before closing out is yeah, I
would just say conviction is abig part of that right.
The church is a partner in whatthings should be addressed with
conviction and what thingsshouldn't be, what things should
(41:32):
be seen as shameful and whatthings shouldn't be seen as
shameful, and how a personshould respond when they feel
guilty or ashamed or convicted,or how they shouldn't respond.
The church has an enormous roleand, yeah, the church messes
that up a good many times, butthat doesn't devalue what God
(41:55):
wants to do through the body ofChrist and often does through
the body of Christ.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Correct, yeah that's a great point.
Yeah, so, as we kind of teasethis out a bit, is there
anything that we missed,anything that you would like to
kind of add before we move intothe next episode?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
No, I don't think this one again was supposed to
be about guilt and shame andconviction.
I think we covered it prettywell just in terms of.
I just want people to reallyunderstand that guilt and shame
often are addressing a lot ofthe same things and conviction
(42:36):
and conviction and I know that'swhy you addressed these three,
because we do oftentimes usethem synonymously and I'm
telling you, the text deals farmore with shame and images.
Shame and how it's addressedand how it's pictured in
people's lives, far more thanthe feeling of guilt that
(43:01):
current psychological traditionwould want to use.
That's, that's just more of amodern concept.
Yeah, whereas shame hasthousands of years, the feeling
of shame as thousands of yearsof being addressed and being
talked about and philosophizedabout and used and seen and
(43:25):
observed and honed, whereasguilt and there are a lot of
people that are trying toreplace shame with guilt and you
can't do it yeah, they're notthe same thing and guilt does
not.
Guilt does have a biblicalreference point, but it's not
what they think it is.
It's this judicial standing, uh, it's this status.
(43:49):
What am I before the community,before god, in terms of my
current status, and am Iinnocent of this and am I guilty
or whatever the case is?
That's a takeaway.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the takeaways also Ithink that is good for us to
have is you emphasize a lot,maybe this new perspective on
shame is that shame is not bad,that it can be something that we
can look at it from a differentperspective, where sheds light
on areas of our lives that needto be addressed in a sense.
(44:25):
Yeah, would that be accurate?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
no, totally, and you know, I I think I said this in
another podcast podcast, I don't, I don't think it was you and
Tim but I said we should be morefocused on the feeling of shame
and less focused on shamingpeople.
That's good, right.
(44:47):
So, yeah, we should help peopleand ourselves go, because God
is, as he works within us, is inthe business of exposing, yeah,
and we are going to feel shameand we should feel that shame,
but oftentimes it's the work ofGod inside of us and not
(45:08):
necessarily our job to go aroundand shame, attack everybody.
Correct, right.
So is it appropriate?
Are there appropriate ways?
Sure To ways, sure To shame?
Yes, um, do we need to be moredelicate about that and
sensitive?
Yes, um, but the feeling ofshame it's huge and and, uh, I
(45:31):
think we're.
You know, we'll get into theappropriateness of certain
feelings of shame in this nextsession.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Absolutely.
I see two great topics down.
All right, brother, we'll seeyou at the next one.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
We are moving into episode two,or part two, of our
conversation on shame.
I'm here with Mr Jason Glenn,who is our expert on biblical
shame, and we've had a greatconversation last time about
biblical shame and its role inthe life of the Christian, and
(00:28):
today we're going to talk abouta very important topic, which is
shame, guilt and conviction.
So how do we differentiatebetween these?
Are they different?
What's the role of each one?
And we'll even get into seeinghow this is helpful just for the
church community in general.
But, jason, as always, good tohave you back in.
(00:50):
I mean, we just basicallypaused and got back on.
Here we are.
This is how we do episodes,guys.
This is how it's done.
Same time right here Absolutelyso, yeah, so last time we were
talking about the role of shame,how it influences Christian
life, when it should be used, weended kind of the conversation
on um, how we uh shame, I guess,people, or how we use it in the
(01:18):
context of the church or in theChristian life.
And today, as we're talkingabout this part shame, guilt and
conviction it's, I guess,delineating between those three.
So just to kind of pass theball off to you, jason, when you
hear about these three concepts, they're very closely tied
together, right, and I thinkmost Christians do have a
(01:40):
difficult time discerning.
Is this shame that I'm feelingit guilt?
Is it conviction?
I mean, I see I can see it onboth sides, for one who doesn't
want to make someone feelashamed or wants to maybe
provide a sense of conviction,which only the holy spirit does,
as we know but then there'sother people yeah, and then
(02:00):
there's other people who who itand they oftentimes may feel
ashamed of things that maybedon't require that feeling right
.
So we could talk about, like,those gray areas, like for
someone.
You know, if someone drinks,has a drink, is that?
Should they be feeling shamefor that?
Some cultures do it, or somechurch cultures do that, and
(02:24):
maybe that's a gray area.
I know people have differentstances on that, um, so we'll
talk a little bit about allthose things, but just in
general, uh are, what are thedifferences between these three
terms that we'll be using?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
yeah, um, just let me start with just the biblical uh
understanding, and this is thisis where there's a lot of
misunderstanding, I think, onthis issue, this issue, um.
So, in terms of the actual wordguilt, um, I you know I'm not
the great in pronouncing greekterms, but uh, it itos, uh is.
(03:01):
That is a Greek term that'sused for guilt and it has far
more to do with fault andcausality and a judicial
understanding.
So you see, it used all throughOld Testament and New Testament
(03:23):
in terms of they were guilty ofthis infraction, they were
guilt, they had guilt before theLord because of what they did.
They needed to then perform aguilt offering.
We're speaking of Old Testamentissues here.
They had whole things set upfor various guilt offerings for
(03:47):
various infractions.
You touch a dead animal right,there are various.
You wear the wrong clothing,you come in contact with a woman
in her menstrual cycle thesearen't shameful things, but they
(04:08):
incur guilt, they incur somesort of infraction,
transgression that has to beatoned for.
In the Old Testament and in theNew Testament, again, the guilt
(04:43):
conversation is almostexclusively connected to large
concepts of sin that areaddressed with Jesus and grace.
We are, you know, in our guilt.
He comes and saves us, but it'sreally most of the time that
the New Testament translatessomething as guilt.
It's not the word's not there,it's a context.
(05:04):
They did the wrong thing umwould that be like a
transgression?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
wouldn't that be like ?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
sometimes.
Sometimes it's sin.
Yeah, sometimes it's sinlanguage and they were, they
were caught in their sin and allof a sudden, that's now they
were guilty, right.
And so again, there is a termin the New Testament, but that
term isn't often used and somost of the time it's simply a
(05:39):
reference to a judicial standingbefore God or before a king or
before a people or authorityfigure, and it just is not a
normative concept when it comesto moral infractions that you
(06:03):
feel something about.
It's not a feeling.
It really.
Let's just, let's just clarifythat in the new Testament, guilt
is not a feeling.
It's not nowhere, nowhere is.
Is it really played out, as itis a status you are the cause.
That again, that's you are thecause of the thing.
(06:25):
And they inspected him and hewas found to have not been the
cause.
That'll be the Greek, but inthe translation it'll say he was
found not guilty or no guiltwas found on him.
So that's the sort of use ofguilt and conviction.
(06:47):
You know you already stepped ithome.
It's the Holy Spirit, andthat's the sort of language that
is used in the New Testament isthe Spirit will be sent to come
, and the term that's kind oftranslated conviction is most of
(07:09):
the time like exposureinspection.
Let's see if I wrote downanything else here.
Reproved there's, reproved toconvict.
They will feel convicted intheir heart again in a judicial
stance.
Um, we again the john 16, 8,the holy spirit coming.
(07:33):
That passage, um, firstcorinthians passage uses 14, 24,
when when the, the gathering ofbelievers and an unbeliever
walks in, it uses the termelenco and that is to expose, to
(07:54):
convict.
It has their thoughts exposedand they feel convicted and they
fall on their face and worship,you know, or in repentance.
But yes, it does seem to beconvict, does seem to have that
(08:15):
connotation of an act of God andan inward exposure.
So in some ways it's more.
In some ways it's kind of tiedto both shame and guilt.
Right, the conviction piece.
Yeah, the conviction piece,because it does, it is showing
(08:37):
you your status before theauthority, god, and it is
exposing you to yourself and toothers, and then the whole idea
is that that will cause somesort of contrition in you.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, and I think we addressed this last time too,
and feel free to correct me ifI'm wrong I think the way that
we defined the last time waskind of guilt was this idea of I
did something bad and the shamepart was I am bad, and both of
them have a role in in this walk.
And you know, one of thequestions that comes up for me
(09:22):
when I think about theseparticular concepts is that
there are some people who havethis strong certainty of this is
the Holy Spirit convicting meof this right?
And so it could be.
And this was kind of one of thepoints that I made, I think, in
the last episode was that theycould say I feel so convicted by
(09:45):
the Holy Spirit that Ishouldn't drink alcohol anymore.
Or I feel so convicted by HolySpirit that I shouldn't go visit
my in-laws because they'retoxic, right.
So how do you discern?
Because, again, when someonesays that we know that they're
using an authority, higherauthority, that's being god
right, and that is kind of likethe stamp of approval on their
(10:08):
behavior and this is why you cando that or not do that, right.
So it's hard to argue withsomeone who says, well, this is
what god told me to do, and theword that they'll use.
I feel convicted by it, yeah,and maybe they'll even use it
like I feel convicted in needingto tell you this.
So, yeah, this needs to beaddressed.
So how do we differentiate, Iguess, between the holy spirit's
(10:32):
leading and someone who has auh, either a sensitive or more
stronger, a stronger conscienceabout certain?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
things.
Yeah, you, yeah, I mean of all.
You always take them to thetext and show them what the text
says.
You always take them toscriptures and go here's all.
We have on the subject, um, orhave in the past talked about
(11:07):
the fact that there is asubjective element to our
relationship, our moralrelationship to god.
It's not and because that's abig, that's a big conversation
in christian ethics is objectivemorality right there, there's
right and there's wrong.
Well, yes, but there's alsosubjective wrong before God, and
(11:29):
it relates exactly to whatyou're talking about Eating food
, certain foods, meat.
Paul talks about drinkingalcohol, worshiping on certain
Sabbath days and festival days,or not keeping them or not
keeping them.
The text says that some peopleare extra sensitive, feel
(11:54):
convicted that drinking alcoholis a sin, and then the text says
to them it is a sin.
Right sin right, so I?
And?
And then also says who am I tojudge that person?
Because they answer to god.
(12:14):
So, on the issues of, of, um,ambiguous activities, uh, that
are approved, uh are not.
You know, there are abuses ofthem, but there's nothing,
there's no prohibition againstthem.
However, they are things thatpeople feel convicted not to do,
and we have.
We have things like watchingR-rated movies or, you know,
(12:35):
smoking, smoking cigarettes orcigars or whatever.
There are lots of things in theChristian, even among the
Christian community, where we'relike, yeah, so-and-so doesn't
feel convicted that they can dothat, you know.
Or so-and-so doesn't shop atTarget because, well, target,
you know, has trans bathrooms,you know.
I just I can give themprinciples of freedom from the
(13:02):
text and show them whatScripture says about the those
things, but at the end of theday, I I have to say that's
between them and the holy spirit, and who am I to say that the
holy spirit actually didn'tplace them on, on that
conviction on their heart, um,but I can say, oh, god has
convicted me that I have thefreedom to to date a guy and I'm
(13:22):
a guy and you're like, as amatter of fact, no, because here
we have clear outline textsthat say you cannot do that.
So, yes, we have scripturesthat give clarity to that in
terms of objective truths, andthen we have scriptures that
give clarity to the fact thatthere are subjective convictions
that people can have in theirrelationship with God.
(13:47):
My father and this gets to theshame conversation my father,
when he got saved and I think hewas like 25 years old, he was
an army sergeant and he got outof the army immediately.
He stopped drinking.
He was a drunkard, drank allthe time.
He stopped drinking Immediately.
He stopped drinking.
He was a drunkard, drank allthe time.
He stopped drinking.
He stopped smoking.
He loved cigars.
He stopped everything.
(14:08):
He was a fundamentalist Baptistguy that led him to the Lord
and so he walked into thatcommunity and he, you know, I
think maybe like 10 years later,when he was again like 35, he
was out on a business trip andhe was in his hotel room and he
(14:30):
was lonely and he got a cigarand smoked it.
And my mom told me the story andshe said she, he called me, he
felt sick and, uh, morally, ifhe called me and said that he
had a cigar, and he was like,was that wrong?
(14:51):
I feel horrible, you know,about doing that.
Uh, he felt ashamed, yeah, thatbecause he had a conviction, um
that had lasted, you know, andand he violated that conviction,
um.
So you know, yeah, we can havespirit-led personal convictions
(15:14):
that become a standard in ourlife, that we can transgress and
then feel ashamed abouttransgressing, and it's, it's.
I have to be really careful, asa brother in Christ, to say to
that person you should not feelashamed, because the text
(15:36):
actually says that to them it'sa sin, right, right so they feel
it.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
The text supports that.
The holy spirit is likelyconvicting you of that.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, yeah, I got to be really careful about that Now
.
That doesn't mean that overtime I can't have a conversation
with him, going back into thetext and saying, man, do you, do
you see?
You know what I'm seeing in thetext and I feel like it's not
prohibiting alcohol.
You know and and but again,that may not.
(16:09):
It just may not be worthwhilehaving that conversation and it
may be redundant and it just maymake total sense that they keep
that standard of morality forthemselves.
Plenty of Baptist preachers areteetotalers, not because
they're holding some fine line.
I used to get frustrated withthe president of Southeastern
(16:33):
Baptist Seminary, danny Akin,because he's such a legalist on
this issue, but his dad was anabusive drunkard.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And so you're like I can't blame you for having that
conviction and being ashamed ifyou were to trans, I can't blame
you for that.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
When you shared that about your dad and even this
experience right here,immediately I thought of my dad
and I think one of the questionsthat I had for you that I think
will bring some clarity to thisis can shame be debilitating
for the Christian?
And right, so there's this partof okay, you know you feel
shame.
(17:14):
Hopefully it brings you torepentance, if not, it might
lead you to rebellion andhopefully you come back later.
But there's this other piecetoo, in the middle where it
debilitates Christians frombeing able to grow, and I
thought immediately about my dad.
So my dad, you know he wasdivorced and it happened twice
to him and the first time healready felt a lot of shame and
(17:37):
he communicated to us as hischildren I'm sorry, I messed up,
I could have changed, I couldhave done.
All these different thingsHappens a second time, even more
levels of shame and part ofthat was kind of the
conversation within the churchwas never divorce.
You know, you got to fight foryour marriage and he felt that
and I felt that even as a kidgrowing up, and he just every
single time that we would meetafterwards he would say you know
(18:00):
, I'm still sorry for you knowwhat happened between me and
your mom and you know, and how Iwas as a father and all these
things, and every conversationwas like that Jason, every
single one.
I'm like my dad's never goingto grow if he doesn't let go of
this shame.
And we confirmed him in saying,dad, you know, there's nothing
else you can do.
You've asked us, you'veapologized to us, We've forgiven
(18:23):
you.
You don't need to remind us ofit, but he continued to live in
that, and a big part of that wasthe teaching and also how he
internalized that.
So it wasn't just I didsomething bad.
Then it was I am bad, I'm ahorrible father, I'm a horrible
person, I'm a horrible Christian, all these things.
So it was debilitating for him.
So can you speak a little bitto that?
(18:44):
For maybe Christians who livein shame yeah, and they address
it as conviction, because that'show my dad said it.
He said well, the Lordconvicted me.
I'm like Dad, you're living inshame.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, that's the crux of again, and I think we
briefly touched on this in thelast podcast.
That's the crux of thecontroversy.
The controversy amongchristians, yeah, right, is the
debilitating, and of course, youuse the, the technical term,
which is the best.
That's debilitating, um, theproblem also with that term,
(19:17):
though, is is that, um, shamecan be rightly felt and
debilitating at the same time,and the gospel is enabling, and
people don't want to hear this,but a person that refuses to let
(19:41):
their shame go oftentimes is aperson that refuses to either
understand or act upon thegospel.
They refuse to take onsomething that's new and
unfamiliar and risky, and thegospel is that to people that
(20:09):
have been living in adebilitative state, and so a lot
of this conversation, I think,is oriented in the wrong
direction.
They're like shame is theproblem, shame is the.
Well, I get what you're saying.
That feeling, that feeling, Iget it.
I saw my dad, I saw you know, Ifelt I just I was afraid, I was
(20:33):
proud, I don't want to lose myjob, right, and so I hid my
activities, and so they'll blamethat on shame, but it's
actually pride behind shame.
Hmm, you don't want to be seenin the community as a person
(20:54):
that you've as, as opposite ofthe person that you've been
pretending to be, more that theyunderstand you to be.
It's pride that's actuallykeeping you where you're at, not
necessarily this feeling ofshame.
I'm not saying that shame's notthere and it's not at work, but
(21:15):
I am saying that behind it ispride.
Fear tends to be often behindshame, the foundation of shame.
I am afraid of losing my familyand so therefore, I am.
I don't want to.
I don't want anybody to findout in your father's situation.
(21:37):
That's, that's he.
You know you, everything's outright.
The conversation's been had, um,the truth has been communicated
over and over again.
The truth has been communicatedover and over again.
Guess what it's morecomfortable for a person that
(21:57):
has been living in this shamefulplace?
Oftentimes that's morecomfortable because it's
familiar and they know what toexpect and they've gotten used
to the weight expect, andthey've gotten used to the
weight and sometimes they'veeven dead.
They've been so deadened by thecircumstances that they
actually, lots of times, theydon't actually feel the sham
anymore, even though they theytalk about it right out of out
(22:19):
of you know, out of a sense ofobligation to say something.
Um, but the gospel, uh, whichyou and I know is, is empowering
.
We were like, well, why don'tyou just accept the truth that
you're actually released fromthat shame?
Why don't you accept the truththat you're forgiven completely
(22:40):
for your sins, that you're a newcreation, that all things have
passed away?
All things would be, you know,everything's become new.
Because that takes an enormousamount of faith to some people
and it means stepping in adirection that's unfamiliar and
untrustworthy.
So no, I mean, I just thinkit's far more complex than
(23:02):
simply saying shame's doing itto him.
Man.
How do we get over thisdebilitating shame?
Well then, you better talk tome also about how do you get
over debilitating fear, how doyou get over debilitating pride
and how do you get over the, thehardening of your heart that's
taking place over the years?
yeah, oh yeah, that's good,brother, that's really good but
(23:23):
yes, since they're debilitating,shame for sure, yeah, and but
you, but it's, it's, it's just.
There are other elements thatare involved in that
conversation, that are tied, theother emotions that are tied in
into that, that have to beaddressed.
And if they're not addressed,you're just, you're, you're kind
of just, you're making a littleboogeyman and, and you know,
(23:45):
shooing it away as if that's theonly problem.
And it's not the only problem,you know.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, yeah, and I do, for the audience, want to make
a distinction here, because wewill get to this in the third
episode about theological versustrauma-informed shame.
And there's the shame componentwhere the messaging that you
receive throughout your lifethrough parents, through a
religious leader, through familymembers, whoever the case is,
(24:13):
these things are long-standingand you know, there is this
emotional piece, there is thismental piece, there is this
spiritual piece too, which needsto be addressed.
And I think the factor herethat we're discussing is when we
use scripture and we eithermisunderstand it or misinterpret
it and make that the drivingforce behind everything that we
(24:36):
do.
So, for example, to your point,my dad would take on this
aspect of the passage ofscripture where it says you know
, we're nothing but unclean rags, right, right, you know we're
nothing but unclean rags, right,right and basically so, using
that which we understandtheologically, what that
references, what that meansabout our state before god
(24:57):
there's nothing good in me.
Yeah, there's nothing good in meand all of these things, and so
my dad would often use thatpassage and I've seen other
christians use that as well asthat we're nothing, we're
nothing and therefore I'mnothing.
And they're just kind of stuckthere and feel like they have
nothing to contribute to thelife of others, like my dad's
very well-intended, he's aserviceful guy, he loves being
(25:18):
there for people, but almost tothe point where that's a way of
kind of maybe covering thatshameful part of himself in a
sense's.
It's hard to see it and he doesit with us and we we've talked
about this.
So this is kind of just opentalk, um, but I do see a lot of
christians do that where theysee that shameful, they only
(25:39):
address themselves as thisshameful piece and not so much
as maybe also being sons of godor daughters of god and I almost
hesitate sometimes in sayingthat, because in today's culture
it's almost been glamorizedlike you are a child of god, you
are special, you know sothere's it's not untrue, but the
(26:00):
way that it's been presentedright both sides.
On one it can be very harsh andjudgmental and on the other part
it's too fluffy and maybeunrealistic in a sense.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, I think, gentlemen, like your dad, or
people like your dad, many otherpeople, my own self from time
to time, have these thoughtsright I can see the fruit of the
broken, fleshly old man.
I don't have to have thatproved to me.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I have experienced it .
Speaker 2 (26:37):
It is well established that I am a wretched
human being.
It's well established, right.
I don't have to have somebodycome and talk me into believing
that I'm this horrible person.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
And so in that sense, because you're asking yourself,
right.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
You're asking yourself well, why is it so hard
for me to believe what the Wordof God says about me in Christ
Jesus versus what the Word ofGod says about me in Christ
Jesus, versus what the Word ofGod says about me apart from
Christ Jesus?
Well, because I have felt theease of what it is like to be me
(27:21):
apart from Christ Jesus and Ihave carried that dead man with
me into my relationship withChrist, where I'm said to be a
new creation, and yet the shameof that dead carcass, and say
that's me Versus saying that'sno, and that's why I love that
(28:00):
text.
You know, it is no longer I whosin, but sin that is within me,
right, the old man, the flesh.
The text is clear that inChrist it's talking about this
identity of ours as a dead other.
(28:20):
And it's not me who I am inChrist, it's not the new
creation, me who I am in Christ,it's not the new creation.
But all too often, because it'sso easy to relate with the
sinful fleshly desires andbecause they still come up in
our thoughts and in ourrelationships, it's easy to slip
(28:42):
back into identifying ourselvesas that shameful person rather
than saying I am being shameful,right, I am.
I am doing something shamefulright now, like that old man,
like that old carcass.
Uh, that relates.
(29:02):
And paul paul uses thislanguage, right, yeah, I'm
confident that you guys you know, yeah, you're struggling with
this, but I'm confident thatyou're new creations.
So put it away, put it away,put that old flesh away.
He uses that language, so Ithink.
But the reality of it is, and,of course, in the counseling
(29:25):
industry and rightly so, andpraise God for the good work
that you guys do yes, there aresome individuals that are so
attached to that.
It's Christians that are soattached to that old carcass,
that old, dead person, andsometimes, of course, it has
nothing to do with their actions, has everything to do with what
was done to them, haseverything to do with what was
(29:46):
done to them, but they stillattach themselves to that and
it's so easy to relate to thatthat they don't believe in an
effective way that they can walkin newness of life, because
it's hard.
It's actually hard to walk innewness of life and it takes a
(30:10):
lot of sacrifice and it takes alot of of fighting yourself and
it takes a lot of putting thattrash out of the house, or
watching your mouth, oraccountability, right it.
It's hard and that's what I'msaying In some ways to say that
I'm living with my shame andcarrying with debilitating shame
(30:34):
.
In some ways, that's just theeasiest thing to do, bro.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I definitely agree with that.
I think there are a lot ofChristians who are in that state
of mind.
I think one of the maybe versesthat has been freeing for a lot
of Christians that I've seenthroughout the years has been
Romans 8.1, where it talks aboutthere's therefore now no
condemnation for those who arein Christ.
Jesus and I think so can youelaborate a little bit on that?
(31:03):
Why does Paul emphasize that nocondemnation piece?
Is it referring specifically toshame or guilt, or what is it
referring to?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
This is what I'm talking about.
People have such a boogeyman ofshame right that if I ever
associate it with the Christianlife, I'm somehow projecting
somebody back into their oldflesh, and that's simply not the
way that the text uses shameright.
(31:34):
It uses it as you are doingsomething that is outside of
what is expected of you as aChristian and by your community
in terms of character and youfeel inherently as a Christian.
You might actually feel moreshame as a Christian than you
(31:57):
ever did as a non-Christian.
That's true, yeah, that's agood point, because you have
this ever, should have this everpresence, holy spirit inside of
you, convicting you, exposingyou to yourself right in a
mirror light right, yes, and,and, and it's a peter maybe
(32:19):
you're.
You know, yes, the, the, thedeeds of darkness are exposed to
the light.
Um, so, yeah, you're gonna feelshame.
It's how you, but we'reequipped to, as christians were
equipped to deal with shame,with truth and the presence of
the holy spirit and thecommunity of christ.
(32:40):
Does the community of christoften fail us in that matter?
Yeah, as a matter of fact, theydo.
However, however, join the club.
We fail people constantly aswell, but we do have the
presence of the Holy Spirit andwe do have the Word of God that
does show us.
The condemnation is talkingabout the judicial condemnation.
(33:02):
There is now no longer anyjudicial judgment sending me
apart from God for my sin, toHades, hell, whatever you want
to say.
We are now no longerjudiciously separated from God.
(33:23):
We are married to him.
We are one with him.
However, we're not completelywithout the old man yet.
And this is where shame comes in.
We still have this old flesh,this old man.
Yet and this is where shamecomes in we still have this old
flesh, this old man, with us andwe still act upon it
(33:45):
periodically and that is not whoGod intended us to be.
And we, internally, are goingto feel exposed and disconnected
from ourselves at times andfrom our God at times and from
our community at times.
And how do we deal with that?
As Christians?
We repent, we have contrition,we go crap, lord, I did this
(34:12):
thing again that I used to doand I feel horrible about it
Again.
Some people would like to usethat term guilt, and say, well,
yeah, that's guilt, jason, andthat's all we should ever feel,
and that's just simply notconsistent with the text and it
is an eisegesis versus exegesis.
(34:34):
You're just taking poppsychology in terms of the guilt
dynamics and you're saying Ilike guilt better and so I'm
going to use guilt as the way toaddress my bad feelings about
being a certain way and doingthe same thing I shouldn't do
over and over again.
(34:54):
I just feel guilty about it andI should repent, and that's the
term I'm going to use.
Well, oftentimes you'reactually feeling shame and you
should be feeling shame and youactually should have a contrite
spirit, you should havecontrition and fall on your face
.
I'm going to use this examplebecause, again, recent sermon I
(35:19):
heard, but it's a helpfulnarrative to address a lot of
these things.
The woman comes in, a greatsinner comes in and Jesus is in
a Pharisee's house, simon thePharisee and the woman begins to
(35:41):
weep at his feet and wipes hisfeet with her hair, face down,
wiping his feet with her hair,crying with tears that are
washing his feet.
We know she's a wretched sinner, uh, and we know that she came
(36:05):
in to see jesus into a placethat would normally not have her
and that the people in thatlocation no doubt kept their
distance from her on the dailyand judged her from afar and in
many ways, okay, rightly so, interms of she's living an ungodly
(36:26):
life, she's violating the laws,she's, you know, because the
text says she's a great sinner,right, but she is in the process
of being contrite.
One could read into the textthat she has already felt the
(36:49):
shame and in some ways isfeeling the shame and can't look
Jesus in the eyes.
But she can weep at his feet incontrition and wash his feet
with her tears and her hair.
And then you have Simon.
Doesn't say it out loud, he'snot being improper in terms of
(37:12):
what he says, but in his mind hesays, man, if Jesus knew who
was touching him, he would knowshe's a great sinner.
And Jesus, knowing his thoughtsin front of everybody, said
Simon, I have something to sayto you.
He didn't say anything out loud, he didn't talk to her, he
(37:36):
didn't say anything.
He says, simon, I've gotsomething to say to you.
And he says you know, simon,who is more appreciative of
forgiveness?
The person who's forgiven much,like my friend here, or a
person that's not forgiven much?
And Simon's like, I guess, theperson that's forgiven much,
(37:58):
right.
And so Jesus essentially shameshim publicly.
He says this woman who is fullof sin is washing my feet, and
you didn't even wash my feetwhen I walked in this house.
(38:20):
She is, she is blessing mebeyond what you can fathom, bro,
but you didn't do anything forme when I walked into your house
.
The basic hospitality that ourculture demands because of the
honor shame dynamics, you didn'toffer to me.
You didn't give me anything todrink, you didn't, you didn't
wash my feet, uh, you didn'toffer to me.
You didn't give me anything todrink, you didn't wash my feet,
(38:40):
you didn't give me oil for myhair.
You didn't do any of that, butshe hasn't stopped doing it
since she came in.
He shames Jesus, shames Simon,and because this woman has a
contrite heart, she iscompletely forgiven of her sin.
That's what the text says aboutshame and contrition and
(39:06):
repentance.
And who should feel shame andcarry it?
The person that doesn't thinkthey need it.
They need it in many ways.
The one that is feeling it andis responding with contrition
with it to it.
(39:27):
That person is going to receivethe forgiveness of Christ and
feel that forgiveness and own it.
Yeah Right, there's Simon.
Didn't.
Didn't seem like a guy that wasowning it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, no, that's powerful, brother.
There's this um, as you'resharing that.
There's this concept in theattachment literature that talks
about God image versus Godconcept.
And God image is the experiencethat we have with Christ, the
experiences that we have withhim through people, through the
church and so on.
And God concept is what wethink about God, right, how we
(40:06):
know him, what we've been taughtabout him and so on.
And I think this aspect of shamethat we're talking about within
the church, we're taughtcertain things about God, how
God does these things in thesedifferent settings, this example
that you just gave with Jesusand Simon Peter.
So we have these examples, right, so we see it and we understand
it, but it's not until weexperience it that it does
(40:28):
something to us.
Kind of like the woman in theexample you just used in that
story, where she experiencedJesus in a different level
because she knew how unworthyshe was.
And she experienced Jesus in adifferent level because she knew
how unworthy she was and sheexperienced Jesus in a different
way.
So that would be an example ofthat God image, which we'll get
into in our next topic.
But, yeah, I think this aspectof God uses the church, uses
(40:52):
people in our lives familymembers and so on to communicate
what we need in differentmoments of our lives.
And it could be grace, it couldbe truth, it could be anything,
but he uses people in our livesto bring us to that point, and
sometimes that does includeshame and sometimes it includes
grace.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
So, yeah, I think before closing out is yeah, I
would just say conviction is abig part of that right.
The church is a partner in whatthings should be addressed with
conviction and what thingsshouldn't be, what things should
(41:32):
be seen as shameful and whatthings shouldn't be seen as
shameful, and how a personshould respond when they feel
guilty or ashamed or convicted,or how they shouldn't respond.
The church has an enormous roleand, yeah, the church messes
that up a good many times, butthat doesn't devalue what God
(41:55):
wants to do through the body ofChrist and often does through
the body of Christ.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Correct, yeah that's a great point.
Yeah, so, as we kind of teasethis out a bit, is there
anything that we missed,anything that you would like to
kind of add before we move intothe next episode?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
No, I don't think this one again was supposed to
be about guilt and shame andconviction.
I think we covered it prettywell just in terms of.
I just want people to reallyunderstand that guilt and shame
often are addressing a lot ofthe same things and conviction
(42:36):
and conviction and I know that'swhy you addressed these three,
because we do oftentimes usethem synonymously and I'm
telling you, the text deals farmore with shame and images.
Shame and how it's addressedand how it's pictured in
people's lives, far more thanthe feeling of guilt that
(43:01):
current psychological traditionwould want to use.
That's, that's just more of amodern concept.
Yeah, whereas shame hasthousands of years, the feeling
of shame as thousands of yearsof being addressed and being
talked about and philosophizedabout and used and seen and
(43:25):
observed and honed, whereasguilt and there are a lot of
people that are trying toreplace shame with guilt and you
can't do it yeah, they're notthe same thing and guilt does
not.
Guilt does have a biblicalreference point, but it's not
what they think it is.
It's this judicial standing, uh, it's this status.
(43:49):
What am I before the community,before god, in terms of my
current status, and am Iinnocent of this and am I guilty
or whatever the case is?
That's a takeaway.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the takeaways also Ithink that is good for us to
have is you emphasize a lot,maybe this new perspective on
shame is that shame is not bad,that it can be something that we
can look at it from a differentperspective, where sheds light
on areas of our lives that needto be addressed in a sense.
(44:25):
Yeah, would that be accurate?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
no, totally, and you know, I I think I said this in
another podcast podcast, I don't, I don't think it was you and
Tim but I said we should be morefocused on the feeling of shame
and less focused on shamingpeople.
That's good, right.
(44:47):
So, yeah, we should help peopleand ourselves go, because God
is, as he works within us, is inthe business of exposing, yeah,
and we are going to feel shameand we should feel that shame,
but oftentimes it's the work ofGod inside of us and not
(45:08):
necessarily our job to go aroundand shame, attack everybody.
Correct, right.
So is it appropriate?
Are there appropriate ways?
Sure To ways, sure To shame?
Yes, um, do we need to be moredelicate about that and
sensitive?
Yes, um, but the feeling ofshame it's huge and and, uh, I
(45:31):
think we're.
You know, we'll get into theappropriateness of certain
feelings of shame in this nextsession.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Absolutely.
I see two great topics down.
All right, brother, we'll seeyou at the next one.
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com