Unraveling Faith, Attachment, and God's Grace w/ Cass Bellino

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
All right, everyone, welcome to the God Attachment
Healing Podcast.
I am excited about today'sepisode because obviously we're
talking about God AttachmentHealing, as always, and one of
the powerful things about doingthis podcast is being able to
hear other people's stories.
I have a very special guest, msCass Bellino, and she has her

(00:27):
own podcast called this isBiblically Speaking, or the
Biblically Speaking Podcast Kindof hard to say that real
quickly.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah it doesn't really roll up the tongue.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
But yeah, she has her podcast and I'll have her share
a little bit about that.
But yeah, Cass, welcome to theshow.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Oh my gosh.
Thank you so much for having me, Sam.
This is my first feature onsomeone else's podcast and I'm
so excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yes, this is so exciting, Okay cool, cool, I
have the privilege of having youon.
I'm excited and you know it'sfunny because the way that we
met you had put up a post aboutdo you have a message to share
about God, something like that.
And I said, well, I talk aboutGod.
I wonder.
I mean, she has theologians,she has scholars on there.
I don't know if this will be ofinterest, but I'm going to give

(01:09):
it a shot.
So I just threw it out there.
We had a great conversation andI saw that you're peak
interested when we were talkingabout God attachment and so I
was like your audience also wasinterested and I was like, well,
let's talk about God attachment.
Everyone has a God attachmentstory.
So you know, I thought ofhaving you on, especially since
you have a heart also forsharing about God's word and
learning more about God's word.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, no, I really appreciate it because it's not
so often that I think we like.
We like to silo, you know,psychology and our own trauma
and therapy and attachmenttheory and how that works out in
our relationships, and then tohave someone say like, well, you

(01:50):
have a relationship with God.
What kind of relationship is itsecure?
That blew my mind when we weretalking on my live and I had
multiple people come up to meafter and just be like dude, I
can't stop thinking about that.
So, even though my podcast ismore so focusing on what does
the Bible say and how do weunderstand it from a 2024
perspective of you know, like Ijust want to talk to scholars
and PhDs of like, okay, theBible's great, I buy into that
idea.

(02:10):
But when we discuss these verses, what was going on?
You know what was going on whenthe original authors wrote it.
What was going on at that time?
Are there pieces of contextthat we miss?
Because we just simply don'thave time in that hour and a
half sermon on Sundays or ourMonday night Bible study, we
just don't get into thosedetails.
And once we do, oh, the Bibleis making a lot more sense.

(02:32):
Oh, that's what the originalmeaning was I mean, we did an
episode on Job.
It's like, oh, why do good badthings happen to good people?
No, that's not at all what Jobis about.
And we spent like an hourtalking about what Job was
actually about.
And is Job a real person?
Who wrote Job?
So all of these things come tothe surface when you spend an
hour with somebody who spentdecades studying specifically

(02:53):
that topic.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Absolutely yeah, and it's been great to see I'm sure
it's been encouraging for otherChristians as well, as they gain
in their understanding of whoGod is and learn more about the
Bible.
So I'm really appreciate youdoing that podcast as well.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, it's been really reallygiving and amazing.
Just for my own Christiangrowth, I would say like, if
we're going to go all the wayback like I was raised in a
Christian household, like I was,you know, raised equal parts,
non denominational one Sundayand then Russian Orthodox the
next Sunday and my dad wasRussian Orthodox and my mom was
non denominational one sundayand then russian orthodox the
next sunday and my dad wasrussian orthodox and my mom was
non-denominational and my momwas like, essentially we're

(03:30):
gonna do every other and thenwhen you're 18, you choose which
one that you want to be a partof.
um, and I really think therussian orthodox, like the I
want to say like the routine,but like the religion of it all
was so beautiful and it was sostructured and the fast and the
feast and the different holidayand the like different calendar
that they go by.
We're not Russian particularly,I feel like just culturally, my

(03:51):
family leans into our Italianside and, like I didn't know
until recently, but I wasUkrainian, not Russian.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Really.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Russian type too?
Of course no, but it's abeautiful way to experience God,
but not speaking the languageis a huge inhibitor, obviously.
And then, even on my mom's side, when we were going to
non-denominational, it still waslike it was too touchy, feely,
it wasn't, it didn't feelapplicable.
It felt like there's Christians.
And then there's me and I and,like you know, just getting

(04:22):
raised, my mom would alwaysbring like oh, you did this in
high school.
You got caught sneaking out,you got caught having sex with
your boyfriend, you got caughtdrinking, like all the things a
kid does.
My mom would always loop itback to like well, that's not
like the child of God that Iraised you to be.
Like it was never like churchon Sundays and then life Monday
through Saturday.
Like my mom was integrating Godin every part of everything and

(04:42):
like praying together, and Imean this is going to be such a
long story, but like leadinginto it.
I think trauma plays a hugerole in knowing God, because you
know the things we experienceon earth got created and when we
were so young we were in like apretty brutal car crash.
And I think every family has atrauma, not like to the extent

(05:05):
of a car crash, but like everyfamily goes through something
hard.
And for us it was a car crashthat essentially like
immobilized my mother for likeseven years, Like it was so, so
long.
She was in and out of surgeriesbut like everybody's fine,
Everyone survived.
But it was like my mom was inbed, Like she couldn't be a
mother, and that was obviouslygoing to put a huge weight on my

(05:26):
older sisters.
And then my brother was out ofthe house, he was at college and
then my dad was like trying towork a job and now he has to
play like the motherly role andI feel like if it wasn't for God
, like it would have torn usapart.
It put an immeasurable amountof strain on my parents'
marriage obviously.
I mean, who wouldn't now?
Now I can see that, but for meit was.

(05:46):
I felt I was the youngest andmy parents and my family, out of
protection, really just kind ofkept me out of it, and I don't
think this was like an exclusionCassie can't handle it.
I think it was like Cassiedoesn't need to handle it.
She's nine years old at thetime.
So I think that that played arole in like me being like seen
in the family, and that's atotally different trauma.

(06:07):
But you know, having my mom berelentless in her relationship
with God and like praying for us, like my mom's a prayer warrior
and she would have instances oflike satanic attacks, of like
she told me she's like one timeit was right before the accident
I was sitting outside thecourthouse I think she had like
jury duty and somebody came upand was like you have beautiful

(06:28):
legs.
Like my mom was a skier, shewas a runner, she was a swimmer
and like a week before theaccident, someone's like you
have beautiful legs and thenwalked away.
And then a week later my momlost her legs.
Like now she walks with a limpto this day, like she didn't
lose them, but like you knowwhat I, you know what I mean,
Like she lost that ability, thatlike beautiful aspect that she
once had, and she was like Ithink that was Satan, Like I

(06:48):
think that was a taunt.
And even when she was in herhospital bed for like months at
a time, she like felt.
She's like one time, like Ijust felt a darkness come into
this room and and I was so sadand I was so upset that I
couldn't be a mother, Like hereI am like hearing you guys come
in and out of the house, but Icouldn't do anything.
I'm like in this room, in thehouse that I can't get up from,

(07:10):
and she's like, and thisdarkness just like descended on
me and I just opened my Bibleand started reading it and it
went away and like thank God fora mother.
That was just like I'm notletting go of you and like my
sisters were like so rebelliousand she's like I'm not letting
go of you guys.
And so I think, being raised ina household where, like

(07:31):
Christianity was its core and itwasn't just a Sunday thing, it
was like who we were.
I felt like I was growing up,but like not at the pace that I
needed to, and I would say likeuntil 22,.
I was still this like lukewarmChristian.
That was like I feel like Ishould, but I don't want to.
I love my sin.
I love sneaking out with myboyfriend Like I had no, I had
no need to like really be a goodChristian.

(07:52):
But I was also petrified of God, like absolutely terrified.
But there was this like he'snot really cool and being
Christian is kind of cringy andthat's not who I am Like.
I had this view of Christianhoodand maybe that was just like
what I was exposed to, but I'mlike I don't want that, like
whatever that is.
That version of that justdoesn't sit well with me.

(08:12):
It's it seems fake and it seemsforced and it seems uninformed.
I'm going to be honest.
But I remember being 22 and Ilived in Thailand at the time
and I was friends with a reallyChristian woman and she was
working on like humantrafficking and she was going to
church with me and I just wasremembering like hey, it's about
time I grew up in my faith,like I need to like start taking

(08:34):
it seriously.
But like where do I start?
And I'll never forget this wewere like eating at my favorite
place ever.
If you're ever in Bangkok go toItai.
It's like at the bottom of themall and it's awesome, and we
were joking about how cool theBible is and I was like, dang,
this is such a good conversation.
Like why isn't this what churchis like?
Or I wish there was like apodcast where, like you had a

(08:54):
funny person and a really smartperson and it was just like
factually informative ratherthan like a feel good sermon of
like isn't God great?
And this is the message out ofthe verse.
But like this is who John isand how can we understand John
and this is how old he was.
And if he, if John, was alivetoday, this is what job he would
have.
Like I want those facts.

(09:16):
And I've always been likeobstinate and reading the Bible
because it felt like every timeI opened it I was like what the
heck's going on?
Like it truly was like adifferent language.
So it's like I just feel likeI'm doing this because I have to
, not because I want to, andthat doesn't feel good either.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Like in your faith, but you wanted to understand it.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
I was constantly praying God, I want to want you.
I see people on fire for youand I feel like their lives are
good.
But like, if I'm gonna behonest, I love my sin more.
But like god, like I want towant you put me on fire for you,
and I just like prayed that Iwant to say for years, I want to
say, like 18 to 22.
I was like dude, I want to wantyou but I don't.

(09:56):
And I think, and I don't knowwhat, gave me the courage to be
able to be like god, I don'twant you.
It's like that's a prettyterrifying thing to say to your
creator, but I think it paid off.
And I would say, when I movedto Hawaii, I was finally like
isolated enough from my family,and my family is really smart.
They're so wise and they wantwhat's best for me.

(10:18):
But sometimes, having people inyour life that want what's best
for you, they put ideas likewell, cassie, if you go, know,
then you're on the internet, andwhat if that comes back to bite
you?
And what if, like, I don't, myfamily only wants to protect me,
but I think that sometimes thatwould have like kept me back.
So I think now that I wasisolated in Hawaii.
Um, I finally was able to belike this is what I need to do.

(10:41):
I mean, I have been looking fora podcast like this for five
years, it feels like, and now Ihaven't found it.
So someone's like sounds likeit's your job, it sounds like
God wants you to do it and I waslike no, like the internet is
forever, like the internet is ascary place.
I don't think I could handlelike if there was bullying.
I don't think I can handle it.

(11:01):
Like it's been a learningprocess.
But I feel like, you know, hadI not been isolated, had I not
met the people I met out here,that like really encouraged me.
I was like doing worship at mychurch out here at the time and
this woman like pulled me asideand like very prophetic to
tourists visiting the city andthey were like Cassian, like I
don't know you, but God clearlyhas isolated you from your

(11:23):
family for a purpose and you'reup here singing.
You have a voice and God wantsyou to use it and I think at the
time I was like I'll be asinger, but I think it's like
evolved obviously into likeusing my voice on a podcast, but
once I, you know, I was likereally debating.
I was like I think I got to dothe podcast.
I don't know the first thingabout editing.
I don't have anything softwareno one in my life podcast, it's

(11:45):
not even like I have a network.
Right when I was like, okay, ifI don't do it, someone else will
, and God's put this on my heartfor five years, so I'm just
going to go for it and if no onelistens, that's okay.
If no one listens, at leastthey did it.
You know, and I talked to a lotof really great people and
they're like it sounds like thisis for you, like maybe God is
just trying to reach you to havethese conversations.

(12:05):
It doesn't even matter if itblows up, and so I I still feel
that way.
I mean, at the end of the day,I do think that I'm talking
about God significantly morethan I ever have in my life,
which is such a gift.
I mean it's just good to belike isn't this cool?
Like I learned this this weekand a lot of my friends aren't
Christian, so like they'regetting exposure, whether they
like it or not.
But they're also supportivepeople.

(12:28):
So even if they don't fully buyinto it, they love me as a
person and they're willing tohear it, so at least they're
getting that exposure.
Who knows?
I think this is part of abigger thing.
But once I like decided, I waslike, ok, I'm going to do it.
I don't know how, but I'm goingto do it.

(12:50):
Like so, so many weird thingshappened that like made it fall
into place.
Like um, I was dating a guy atthe time and he does like tours
here that take people into likethe hawaiian mountains and all
these things, and he was likebragging about, like oh, my
girlfriend just started thispodcast and the guys he was
repelling were like, oh, we'relike theologians and scholars,
like we have tons of friendsthat would love to go on that
podcast.
Like out of nowhere, I suddenlyhad like four people to
interview when, like the weekbefore, I had zero.
And then I was like, okay,maybe, like I'm going to do this

(13:13):
Cause now.
I like now I got to figure outa podcasting software and I sat
next to a pastor on a plane andI was like God, I know that
you're doing this.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
So I could talk to him, but this is weird, I'm not
going to talk to this pastor.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
He's with his family on vacation.
If I'm supposed to talk to thispastor, he has to come up to me
, which is like he's not goingto do that.
He's on vacation, like hedoesn't know me.
Sure enough, tapped me on theshoulder like right when the
plane landed and was like hey,by the way, like this was

(13:46):
actually an answer to prayer, sonow, so that's how the podcast
came to be, and this was a yearago.
Yeah, this was October.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
So just October, so it's only been 10, nine months
maybe.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, I would say, like right around this time last
year I was like, okay, I'mgoing to do it, I'm going to do
it.
I started researchingpodcasting but the first episode
didn't launch until October.
I probably like did a coupleepisodes before I fully launched
because I wasn't sure how to doit.
But it blew up in January and Ithink I like very quickly
realized that a lot of peoplehave been craving the same thing

(14:16):
I've been craving of, like avulnerable space to admit that
I'm Christian and I still don'tunderstand my faith Cause, like
I love, love church, but likeI'm going to be honest, I
understand like maybe 40 percent, and to be able to like sit
down with someone and say, likeI want to know I'm not willing
to go to seminary because, like,time and money is a real thing.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
But you know, and.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
I the more people I spoke to, like, I think, when I
met with Hugh Ross, which wasalso a crazy situation, like Dr
Hugh Ross is a astrophysicist,who he has like a famous video
on the internet that I saw, andit was like I started at the
book of Genesis and by the timeI got to revelations I couldn't
find one contradiction, and so Iwas converted and I was like I
got to interview this guy I haveno idea who he is, I don't even

(15:01):
know his name and then I liketracked down his website and he
was like speaking at a church onKauai the next weekend.
So I was like well that'sperfect.
I'm going to Kauai next weekend.
I'm just going to ambush himand sure enough I like showed up
to this church in Kauai and Iwalked up to him and I was like
hey, dr Ross, um, would love tolike interview you on my podcast
.
I had like a whole spiel and inthe first sentence he's like

(15:23):
okay, here's my card.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
It's crazy how willing people are like to do it
Like.
I mean, they know that they'rea source of information and I
think they just want to be asked.
So once you ask that question,it's just like yeah, sure, you
know 100%, and I think that'swhat I realized.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Sam is like these guys have spent decades learning
about God, but now they arewithin a different generation,
so now, how do we share thatknowledge?
So I come on and I'm like,let's start with the ABCs.
Like I know nothing and that'sokay.
Like I'm slowly learning butlike nowhere near their
knowledge.
So let me like ask the dumbquestions, because I'm sure

(15:59):
someone else had them and forsure you get the comments of
like how did you not know that?
As a Christian, it's like,bring me one Christian that
knows everything.
I would love to interview them.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, well, better to be in your space where you're
asking the questions, as opposedto those who grew up in the
church and think they know theanswers.
But they don't really know theanswers because we're never
pressed on them, right?
And that speaks back into thoseof us who grew up in the church
, because we've been exposed toit so much we almost lose the
value or the desire for itbecause we've just been exposed

(16:31):
to it and we think that that'senough.
And I forget that there's thatpersonal relationship that we
start to understand as we getolder.
It's like, wow, this is morethan just head knowledge stuff.
This is also about heartknowledge, heart connection with
God.
And yeah, it's very easy forpeople who grew up in the church
to think that they know morethan they actually do.
And vice versa, those who cometo know the Lord later on,

(16:54):
they're just ready to just askall the questions.
So they go through discipleshipand so on.
So it's really cool to see thatyou know.
And in a church that's what itshould be.
You have the older believers,the mature believers who are
discipling the younger believers, and then that continues on
right as you mature, youcontinue to disciple and so on.
So I think it's a goodillustration of that

(17:17):
discipleship your podcast, asyou're talking to these people
who know about scripture, likeit's a good way.
Even though they're not doingday-to-day life, they're still
teaching, kind of like it wasback, you know, in the Old
Testament, just teaching andwe're picking up all those
concepts.
So it's really cool, reallycool to see.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
I wouldn't say that I'm teaching anybody.
I think that is like that holdsa weight of responsibility that
I am fortunate enough not tobear because I interview the
smart people that do theteaching.
But I do agree that likediscipleship doesn't have to
come from a teacher, buteveryday conversations about God
, like if we are to seek him ineverything, then we shouldn't
just talk about God at church orlike at the brunch after church

(17:56):
or like Christian uh, sorry,Christmas or Easter.
But I've been so fortunate tolike have a family that was like
taking their Christianityseriously and encouraging me and
I really have to give kudoslike obviously my mom, but my
sister, Maggie, who I'veinterviewed on the live a couple
of times, she was like therefor me, willing to talk about

(18:19):
God and I think as like a childin high school, I couldn't like
maybe college I couldn't talkabout God without crying because
I felt so unworthy of his love,Like I was not taking my faith
seriously at all.
So for me to be like, yeah, Ilove God, Like I couldn't, even
I didn't feel like I deserved tosay that because like I didn't

(18:40):
love him Look at my actions.
So I'm like so ashamed andtalking about God to my sister
which, like I think I'm justfortunate that you have people
that you can have these hardconversations with and they see
you and they encourage you.
And it's outside of church,it's everyday access, and that's
what I wanted to create withthe podcast is like let's just
talk about God all the time,Like it's not a church sermon.

(19:01):
Let's just like wonder aboutGod all the time.
Let's just like consider thethings that we don't understand
all the time, Even if it's notlike.
I think loving God is justthinking about him and talking
about him and learning about himand through other people's
experiences and testimonies.
I did such an amazing testimonylast week with Paige and it
like has shook me to my core.
So like those types of talks.

(19:21):
But when I spoke to my sisterlike dude, I can't even talk
about God, I'm so unworthy shewas like Cass, like do you
understand how much God lovesyou?
Like just the fact that youcare, that, whether or not he
cares, is enough.
And, Cass, if it's not givingyou peace, then it's not from
God.
And I think that reallyreleased me from like oh gosh,
I'm like at rock bottom.

(19:41):
God's just got nothing butwrath for me.
She's like no, he wants to loveyou.
It like I mean talk aboutattachment, Like that is like a
fatherly love, and I know anearthly fatherly love.
I have an amazing father andbut I think to like be so scared
of God and then to know thatlike love, my gosh, it's gonna
make me cry If I just thinkabout it too much, much.

(20:03):
But I think that like reallyreleased me in my like lacking,
when I was like at the the wrongspectrum of my christianity.
It's like, well, this god justwants to love you.
Like he will hold youaccountable, but like the love
is there and that's not to likewell, he'll condone the sinning
because he loves you so much.
Like I think the love is goingto be first before he like

(20:24):
really puts his wrath on youbecause he loves you so much.
Like I think the love is goingto be first before he like
really puts his wrath on youbecause he loves you so much.
I mean, I don't know it, justand he's patient, so patient,
very patient.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, I'm thinking about how you described your
parents and how they themselvesviewed God, how they viewed
their relationship with God, andhow they both had kind of
different denominationalbackgrounds and that you guys,
as you got older, you had tokind of choose, in a sense.

(20:52):
And it sounds like and I don'tknow what it's like in the
non-denominational church, butdid the churches?
What were the churches teaching?
Was there something that theywere teaching about Jesus, about
God, that didn't align withscripture or that did align with
scripture?
So, for example, one of the youknow, I grew up Southern
Baptist, so the typical thingthat's associated to Southern

(21:14):
Baptist is that, oh, it's fireand brimstone all the time,
which I think for the most ofthe part it was, but there was
also a lot of solid doctrinethat was taught, a lot of
Christianian living, so allthose things were taught.
But I I remember going throughmy teenage years and feeling a
lot of shame and guilt, kind oflike the same experience that
you had, where I just questionedevery single thing that I did,

(21:36):
even if it was not that bad,because that was kind of like
the limit.
It's not that bad, but it'sstill bad and I feel that right.
So there's always this constantshame and guilt, but I never
really understood God's grace,his love, his patience, until I
came to graduate school.
So I'm curious for you whatwere the teachings that you were

(21:58):
hearing from church?
Because it sounds like yourparents were both really good
models of Jesus' love towardsyou.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Can you give some insight on what you were
listening or hearing at thechurches?
Yeah, I think that's a goodquestion.
I mean nothing too significant,I mean Southern Baptist, whoo,
but I think that thenon-denominational church like
think Hillsong, like think, likeamazing worship, and then like
we pull, you know, in the bookof print, like let's go into
first Corinthians, and then theytalk about the story that
you've probably heard a thousandtimes.
You know, on Easter, it'saround, like Pentecost and our
Christian, I mean Christmas it'saround, you know, the birth of

(22:34):
Jesus.
Like we keep hearing the samestories and I think I just kind
of got jaded to church where I'mlike I just feel like we're
like the first 2% of the Bibleis being discussed over and over
again, but none of us, none ofus is like we're not getting
into the grit of like the oldTestament and like the dirty
stuff of the Bible, Like theBible is violent, it is wrathful

(22:56):
and vengeful and we weren'ttouching on that, and so I think
I just got like that's what youmeant by mushy.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Mushy or too soft.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
I was like vanilla, to a point where I was like I'm
not being recognized for thehorrible person that I am,
because at this point I'm goingto church and like, for I just
felt like dude, I don't thinkthese people can handle my sin,
because everyone seems so like,yep, we are totally good and we
totally accept it and everythingis fine.
I'm like I have dirt, like Ihave dirt and I'm struggling.
So where do I put that?

(23:26):
Because what you guys areselling me for Christianity does
not fit where I'm at.
I do not want, because it'sunrealistic, it doesn't feed
into who I am and what I'mstruggling with.
I need someone to like reallymeet me at my level and it felt
like and this like could begeographically based.
I was raised in Ohio, so maybeit was that church, you know,
maybe it was just like me notpaying attention in a church,

(23:46):
like I don't know where the flawwas here, but my perception at
that time in my life was justlike I just don't even feel seen
.
I feel like they're not reallygoing deep enough.
I mean, russian Orthodox is itsown animal.
You can't like you either takeit or you leave it and for it to
be like in a different language, there's only so much you can
take.
But like, going to confessionwas terrifying, highly recommend

(24:08):
it.
It's so humbling and I thinkthere's, just, like you know,
the language barrier.
Like you, just you go inthrough the motions.
It feels like so it's a littlehard to connect to.
Now that I'm older I'm like somuch appreciation for it, but
with the non-denominational itit did feel, yeah, I would say,
unrealistic and unauthentic andwhat I really needed was someone

(24:28):
to explain it to me thoroughlyand to also like recognize my
struggle.
Without that space of like hey,I got to talk about like the sex
that I'm having in high school.
Like where do I put that?
Because it seems like if Ibring it up, I'm not going to
have friends or I'm going to belike that girl.
Because it seems like if Ibring it up, I'm not going to
have friends or I'm going to belike that girl and so like if
those are the struggles thatpeople are having at that time

(24:49):
and they can't find a place toput it, it's really hard to like
have faith in a God when, likehe can't show up Right or even
be encouraged.
And I think I mean we talkabout sex on one of the lives
with Maggie and she was justsaying like listen, god made sex
and he made it in the way thatit should exist in marriage for

(25:09):
a reason, but people stillstruggle with it.
Yet we shy away from it becauseit is, you know, the topic about
sex.
But why can't we say like Iunderstand you're struggling and
recognize it and I don't evenhave the answers because we're
human?
Why can't church be surroundingaround these very realistic
issues of like, addiction andsex and these sins that everyone
struggles with?
But we shy away from and Ithink part of that was in my

(25:33):
household Like my mom had a veryzero tolerance for like she
wanted us to be, you know,children that really honored God
and honored ourselves.
And when we become human andfall short, where can I admit
that without you know beingmisunderstood or feeling like,
ah, I'm just not good enough,versus like no, I understand why
you did it and it sucks thatyou did, but this is how we get

(25:55):
through it, like in no waycondoning it.
But do you know what?

Speaker 1 (25:58):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Like being more so recognized for your faults.
I just felt like the churches Iwent to weren't recognizing me.
And then even in Bangkok, whenI was there, like going through
this, like revolution of likethis is what I need If I'm going
to grow in my faith.
Where can I find it?
I went to my church at the timeamazing church ran by a Swedish
couple and I was like hey, canyou explain this to me?
Like again, it was just achurch with the sermon and like

(26:20):
the worship.
I was like I need like more.
Can we do more at church?
I thought maybe she could takethat feedback.
Who was I?

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Who was I?

Speaker 2 (26:27):
telling this poor woman how to run her church, and
she was like, yeah, I think youshould go to seminary Cass.
Like it sounds like you wantmore, which is on me.
That is a hundred percent up tome to do more, and I wasn't
willing to do it.
I was being very selfish anddemanding and maybe I still am
with the podcast, but I think itserved a purpose because it met
me where I was at and peoplewere willing to share their

(26:49):
knowledge with me.
I think if people were likeabsolutely Like I've done this
for decades and you watch freeinformation, but that's not like
people have been so gracious,gracious and generous with their
time I mean full transparency.
Like I didn't know what I wasgetting into with this podcast
and every guest has come on forfree, and like I feel like yep
like at the end I'm like thankyou for your time, your

(27:10):
knowledge and not charging melike I don't know if I'm about
to get like a venmo requestafter this, but I didn't even
like these people sell atstadiums, you know, like they
should absolutely be chargingand they're giving it away for
free.
They're're amazing.
So, yeah, it's just been.
Yeah, I don't know if thatanswered your question.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
No, no, yeah, it did.
You know.
When we're talking about churchbecause I think one of the
things that I've encountered alot, I mean we're talking about
God, attachment, healing, andthe healing part comes because
either teaching at church hasbeen either not correct, or it's
been hurtful or harmful, butlike significantly so, or bad

(27:48):
modeling by parents.
So typically it's parents first.
They're the ones who kind ofset the stage for how someone's
going to relate to God.
So, starting in infancy, movingto, you know, young childhood,
whatever model parents haveestablished, whether it be
gentle, kind, attentive, caringit's going to be easier for that
child who grows up in that hometo see God as gentle, kind,

(28:11):
attentive and caring.
For the ones who have moremaybe harsh, judgmental,
disciplinarian type of parents,they're going to see God through
that lens, right?
So sometimes we get thoseimplicit messages through our
parents, sometimes throughchurch, right?
So sometimes we get thoseimplicit messages through our
parents, sometimes throughchurch, right.
So I was just curious aboutwhat that experience was for you
, because if the churchcommunicated that God is more of

(28:33):
a judge than he is patient andgracious, then it would make
sense why everything seems likeoh no, you know, no one's going
to accept me.
I can't share my struggles withanyone here because if not,
they're, you know, maybe it'sgoing to create distance between
me and God and so on, butthat's not how God operates.
Now.
God is patient and he's kindand he's loving, but he's also

(28:53):
just and right.
So it's finding the balancebetween those two things.
And I discovered that when Icame to graduate school, because
I encountered so many peoplewho just had a different
background than I did.
You know, I was very doctrinebased, and this is the way that
it is.
But as I started to interactwith more people, I was like,
wait, there's like some nuancehere that I'm not aware of

(29:15):
because I haven't interactedwith as many people.
And especially when you work incounseling, you're seeing a lot
of people's brokenness, andsometimes it was through the
church or through their parents.
So it creates this distortedview of who God is.
So, because of the upbringingthat you had with your parents,
it seems like they were veryloving, caring and attentive.

(29:37):
It sounds like maybe, as yougot older, that's kind of the
way that she viewed God.
Would that be a fair assessment, or what would you add to that?

Speaker 2 (29:47):
How my parents viewed God, or how I viewed God now.
Yeah, I would say um, yeah, Iwould say like younger, I was
absolutely terrified of my mombecause she was like if you're
sneaking out, god will reveal itto me.
And I'm like oh no.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
I'm sneaking out.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
So I was terrified of my mom, terrified of God, like
I just felt like they were bothkind of out to get me, but I was
also like doing horrible things.
So good thing they did, it wasa really great thing that they
caught me.
But I think the like goingthrough this process, I want to
say like as I grow up, but liketruly, in the last nine months,
all of these revelations havelike come to the surface of,

(30:24):
like how expansive God is andhow I've had 26 hours of
conversation now.
And like in no way havescratched the surface.
Like God is, his depths areimmeasurable and I think I have
like been able to like I feellike one of my guests, justin
Gerhardt.
He's like the life you liveshould not make sense if God
doesn't exist, like the amountof trust you put in God.

(30:46):
It should be ridiculous whatyour life looks like If God
doesn't like the amount of trustfall that you're expecting him
to catch you on.
If God doesn't, I guess youshould be screwed.
But God does exist and you'reputting his trust in him, so
you'll be fine.
But like that's how much weshould trust God with.
And I think before I'd be likea control freak, needing to have
total control on like what myfuture looks like, what my

(31:08):
relationships look like, howmuch money I make, all of those
things I need to handle, or elseit won't get handled.
And I think that's just.
I don't know the way I wasraised, I guess, but the deeper
I get into this faith journey islike God does not have bounds
and in order for us to even umtry to understand him, we need

(31:30):
him to give us thatunderstanding.
Anything that we have isbecause of God, the skin that we
have.
When I did the testimony withRabbi Michael Lepoff he was
talking about, you know he wentthrough like a moment of
experiencing God and he lookedat himself in the mirror and
like in this moment, he's likemy skin was falling off, like

(31:52):
like there was a hole in hisface and his skin turned black.
It was this like crazy momentof experiencing God, like it
wasn't actually happening, buthe saw it.
He's like, without God, I don'thave skin, like I don't have
anything put together and Ididn't um another live.
I'm slipping my mind, oh mygosh.
But she was talking aboutpraying and how to pray and, um,

(32:13):
she was just saying, like Idon't know how to pray unless
God teaches me, so like I haveto pray to learn how to pray.
So these experiences that areshaping is like God is truly
boundless and the ways that heshows up is something that we
will never be able to fathom.
And even if we thought we couldpredict God, even if we thought
we could predict how the end ofthe world is going to happen,
the one consistent thing aboutGod is that he will always

(32:35):
surpass our expectations.
I mean, that's how he arrivedto the Israelites is they were,
you know, polytheistic.
You had to make sacrifices forthe gods to be able to live, and
if you don't make sacrifices,your gods will be angry.
And now we have thismonotheistic God that comes down
and is like I've got everythingthat you need, so you're going
to have to come to me for yourneeds.
I don't need you to provide formy needs and that was mind

(32:56):
blowing.
And then Jesus shows up in theembodiment of God and they're
like I can't hit.
Like everything God doesdisrupts everything that we can
ever expect.
So I think at this point I'vegone from like oh, I should
believe in God, to likebelieving in God is great.
To like Jesus take the way.
Like at this point, like it'sjust him.
Like I am just grateful to havebreath in this very moment.

(33:18):
Like I went from like planningmy life out to years to like I
will see what happens in thenext hour.
I gotta take life one hour at atime, because that's more than
I actually have.
Like I've got the next second,but I'm gonna start talking
because God's can take's takenaway in a minute.
Like everything I have is fromGod, the.
Like the moment that we haveright now, the, the ability for

(33:39):
me to like breathe right now,the skin on my face like not to
mention the job and the houseand the health and the thing
like the things that we're like.
Oh yeah, thanks God forhappiness.
It's like no, everything thatwe have is from God and he
allows it to happen and if hedoesn't, then it will be gone.
And this is so much more likeminute than just like the good
things that happen or the badthings that happen.

(34:00):
But I think that has truly beenlike the biggest learned lesson
of like God is everything he is.
He's not just like the religion.
On Sunday, and where our soulgoes when we die.
He is ever living right now,and I think that's what they
mean, like the living God.
That's now what it's become tome, and like every minute God is
in it or else we don't havethat.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
You know, as you're sharingthat like, it sounds so freeing
the way that you're expressingthat belief, like the belief
that I don't have anything, godis in control of everything,
he's given me everything Likeit's freeing because we put this
pressure on ourselves to obtainthose things.
Again, this goes back to thataspect of attachment of wanting

(34:42):
security, of wanting to have ourneeds met.
And where do we seek thatsecurity and where do we seek to
have our needs met and theseother things that have nothing
to do with God or have verylittle to do with God.
Right, needs met and theseother things that have nothing
to do with God or have verylittle to do with God, right.
There's a really interestingconcept in the attachment space
about spirituality versusreligiosity, and spirituality is
how people view the emotionalaspect of their relationship

(35:04):
with God.
How do I feel when I thinkabout God?
Religiosity has to do with whatI do for God, so going to
church, reading my Bible,praying and so on, and these are
ways in which people want toconnect with God and we forget
that.
You know you brought up thispoint about.
I think it starts with the veryfirst part of understanding

(35:24):
that everything that we havestarts with God, our parents
where we grew up, our culturalbackground, all of these things
that we had no control over.
Those are all given to us byGod for a purpose, for a reason.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
I agree.
I feel like it's thatrealization that, oh, I didn't
go to church this week so Ididn't get God.
It's like, no, you have Godright now, it's not just God at
church Everything.
I think it's right.
What do we go seek God in isnow like well, God's already in
everything.
You going to church was a greatencouragement and you should
keep doing it, but that wasn'twhere God was that you had to go
get.
He's always here, he'severywhere.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
Right and the importance of even that is the
community of believers right?
Because God shows himself a lotthrough the body of Christ,
Because God shows himself a lotthrough the body of Christ so
that church attends, because Ithink even Tim and I did an
episode on this is it a sin tonot go to church?
And we talked about theimportance of Christian

(36:23):
community, how much it'semphasized in the New Testament,
and so we explore more there.
It's not really part of ourtopic necessarily today, but we
discuss that topic and theimportance of it and what that
says to us about Jesus, aboutGod, about community and so on.
But, Cass, I'm curious, as we'vekind of, you know, explored a
lot of your childhood and yourupbringing, were there any

(36:45):
explicit things that yourparents told you about God,
about Jesus?
So, for example, something likeyou know, it sounds like your
sister was a pretty criticalrole.
So she, you know, you don'tknow how much Jesus loves you,
he cares about you, he wants tohear your struggles.
But from your parents, did youhear anything explicitly from
them?
Like you know, God is a judgeor he's going to judge you for

(37:09):
all the things that you didwrong and so on.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
What were some explicit messages that you heard
from either mom or dad yeah,it's tough because from a sister
there's more of a peer, there'sthat understanding, there's a
vulnerability of like maggie,I'm struggling with this and
she's like that's okay, godstill loves you, god wants to
love you with a parent dynamic.
And at the times that Istruggling, I was so young,

(37:32):
being able to be like mom, Iwant to have sex with my
boyfriend and like I'm trying tobe authentic and like you have
me, have you meet me where I'mat, the parent doesn't want to
have that conversation.
And that's not to say myparents were bad.
I think they were just likeunwilling to lower their
standard, which I'm so glad thatthey didn't.
But as a child, in thatmentality of not being seen or

(37:56):
recognized for having sinful butvery human thoughts, that
definitely gave me like a guiltcomplex of like um, I, you know,
if I do something wrong, I'mnot going to be like validated,
like oh, that was human and it'sokay, there's forgiveness and
grace.
It was like you'll, that's whathappens when you sin.
What did you think was going tohappen?

(38:17):
And it like puts so much weighton the soul and it makes you
like I mean I've, yeah, I don'tknow it would.
It's hard.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
That's a good point, though, because you know, this
is, this is the struggle I thinkthat, whether it be parents or
us as children, encounter as weget older.
Because you said, I'm gratefulthat they held the standard and
it made me realize that therewas a boundary or something that
I was, that I was not meetingor I was crossing Right.
But then, on the flip side,there's the other side, where

(38:52):
some people would say theirparents let them do everything
and they regret that.
They said I wish they wouldhave given me more boundaries,
right?
So it's trying to find thatsweet spot between having
boundaries and our relation withGod, and also the other side,
which is they have nothing, sothey do whatever they want and
they don't feel any guilt.
I mean, there's some people whowill do sin and they don't feel

(39:12):
any remorse and guilt, there'sno conviction of the Holy Spirit
, but still they'll say I'm aChristian.
So it's always finding thatmiddle ground and, as you're
sharing, yeah, I'm wonderingwhat would you think would have
been different had they taken amore listening approach, like
really tuning into you andhearing you out Like Cass, I

(39:34):
hear you, I know that it's toughLike what do you think would
have changed?
I'm curious.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, I think it's taken a long time to feel the
love that God has for me andlike truly the value that he has
on like who I am to him.
I think because of this likeoppression almost, and this like
need to do what I want and lackof conviction, absolutely Like
as a child, like I felt bad butnot bad enough Apparently, I

(40:00):
think there is that trauma oflike I absolutely had a insecure
attachment, anxious attachment,very anxious attachment, and
like that absolutely manifestedin my relationships with men, of
like tolerating things anddealing with like soul ties that
absolutely weighed me down.
And I think that if I was ableto have, you know and I saw this

(40:23):
in other friendships of like, Ican talk about sex with my mom
and she tells me like all therisks that are associated with
it and I honestly just don'twant to do it anymore I think I
would have been able to feelempowered enough and like, seen
as valued in that way of likewell, I don't have anything to
prove, I already know Cause,like my mother has, like,
validated or whatever.
I just and who knows, I could bewrong but I do feel like that

(40:47):
anxious attachment and that likefeeling of like.
Am I good enough and now I needto act on it to see and prove?
Am I good enough that made mestay longer in relationships
that were clearly leading medown a dark road, that were
clearly weighing me down andjust like breaking me down?
I mean, the trauma got me tovery beautiful relationships now
and, like you know, you makeyour way to that point where

(41:08):
you're like oh yeah, I am veryvaluable and there are things I
will never tolerate again, but Iwish it could happen sooner.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Sure, absolutely, and it's interesting too to see how
all that has shaped us into thepeople that we are today.
Had that not had happened,would I be the same person that
I was before, that I am todayand we don't know.
We don't know what would havechanged.
We just know what did happenand how that shaped our view of
God and of our parents at thepresent moment.

(41:36):
So it sounds like there was nospecifically anything explicit
other than, hey, if you sin,there's going to be a
consequence to that right, kindof like you reap what you sow,
type of you reap what you sow.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
Kind of like shame complex, but like my family like
over talks about their trauma.
So now we've like gottenthrough that.
I think like as a child, you'realways going to like make
mistakes, but I think once Istarted really searching for God
and being like God, I want towant you.
I don't know what's going on,but I know that this is the
track I'm supposed to be on,kind of like absolute blind
faith, of like I haven't evenlearned anything new, but I just

(42:11):
absolutely want to know you.
Like through a breakup, Godrevealed himself to me and like
gave me a vision and that's likeprobably one of the most like
cornerstone moments of my faithwhere I'm like, oh, the power is
real.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Like it wasn't even a big vision.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Like it was like it was one of those things where
I'm like that's what's happening, that's why this relationship
isn't good for me or meant forme.
It was like a total vision oflike being unequally yoked to my
partner at the time and I toldhim about it and he wasn't even
like that Christian and he'slike yeah, that is a hundred
percent what's happening and Ithink it was just like God
wanted me to know.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Wait, he said that.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Like I told my partner that I was like breaking
up with.
I was like, hey, I feel likethis is our problem.
Is this vision that God gave meof being unequally yoked and
we're always going to bedragging each other down and
we're just not what's meant foreach other.
And the guy was like, yeah, Ithink that's what's going on
here.
I was like, okay, so we brokeup, but I think it was like, oh,
god actually wanted me to knowsomething like who am I that

(43:07):
like God, let me in on his planfor me and let me know.
Like hey, by the way, this iswhy I'm very I'm breaking you up
.
This is why he's not yourhusband.
And I think, just like, having alittle bit of truth, a little
bit of like God's wisdomrevealed to you is always going
to be shaking and I would saythat's one of like the bigger

(43:29):
moments.
But I think once you kind ofopen yourself up to like there
are no consequences I mean what?
There are no coincidences, andGod wants to talk to you and you
know we all fall off.
You have weeks where you'relike man, I'm on fire for God.
I'm listening to worship musicall day.
To like man, all I've listenedto all week was Meg the Stallion
.
You just like have those weekson and have those weeks off, and

(43:51):
getting back into the groove ofit and like, okay, god, you're
right, everything is from you.
What am I doing?
Why am I listening to thismusic?
Why am I tolerating thesethings?
Or slipping into gossiping?
I really struggle with that.
His grace is unbounding and hejust always comes back and like
wants to put you back on thatand once you open yourself, like

(44:13):
I want to receive that, I wantto make decisions that draw me
closer to you.
There are no coincidences.
God constantly reveals himselfand I think I like posted a
video the other day and likeit's always dumb.
It's always like something thatlike culturally, isn't like God
appeared to me in a dream.
It's always like, well, Ididn't know if I should adopt a
dog, and then God made it veryclear that I shouldn't adopt a
dog.
It's like so dumb, but it's likeWhoa God is directing me and I

(44:36):
have an opportunity to trust inhim because I can't wait to see
what he does next.
Like sucks that I didn't getthe dog, but it sounds like he's
got something better planned.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
It's great, you know it's.
It's interesting too because Ithink all of those continue to
build your secure attachmentwith God.
Right, because part of it isconsistency and repetitive
instances or situation ofmeeting a need.
Right, whatever that need wasfor you.
Right, and gosh.
It's so cool to hear that,because I think what I've heard

(45:08):
more often is that Christiansgrew up in the church.
At this stage of life, they'reactually on the other side,
where they're deconstructing andalmost moving away from God.
Did you experience that?
I mean, I haven't heard thatfrom what we've been discussing,
but did you experience a timewhere you were deconstructing
and maybe wanting nothing to dowith God?

Speaker 2 (45:32):
I think I'm way too scared of God to even like touch
that topic I'm like, so scaredof God.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
But it was so common, like the last five, 10 years,
like I was hearing it all thetime, I mean, even even worship
leaders and pastors were talkingabout their deconstruction and
they will leave the church andleave their faith and all this
stuff.
So it was so common.
So so yeah, so you said Iwouldn't even go there because I
was so afraid of even thinkingabout it.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
That could be a couple of reasons.
I could just be like willfullyignorant.
I could be, you know, beingunwise and like unopened, like
closed minded of like nope, I'lljust take the blind faith, and
maybe that's ignorant of me.
But A terrified of God.
B it might happen.
And C I feel like when youdeconstruct God and you start
just like finding holes in it,that's just an attack from the

(46:17):
enemy, and I do feel like youknow God's going to show up
stronger because God will win.
I mean God.
God is the product that sellsitself.
Like God is the almightyproduct, and I just think of
like a salesman coming up onyour door and being like, do you
need pest control?
Like God is that product wherehe just like leaves it on your
doorstep and like it changed,like he'll sell itself, like
it'll work, it'll make changes.
So it's interesting, though,because I've had a friend who,

(46:41):
like, has supported the podcast.
She's like my childhood friend,and she's like it's so
interesting because you're thefirst person that I've ever
known that's like reallyresearched their faith and come
out stronger as a Christian, andkind of like what you just said
.
Like most people, you know,they get to this point and then
they start losing faith and Ijust again maybe I'm ignorant,
but I just like all I hear ismiracles Like every single

(47:03):
person that I talk to hassomething amazing to say has
like a truth revealed that justmakes the Bible more credible,
that makes God's vision and lovefor us more aware and more seen
.
And even beyond the podcast,beyond the research and learning
God's work in my life and howit's impacting my community that

(47:26):
is not very Christian and thenme finding a more Christian
community the work of God isjust so positive in my life I
don't know why I would startdoubting it, to be honest.
And the spiritual attacks arereal, super real, and this was
something that the family warnedme about Like hey, you're like
preaching God, of course Satan'sgoing to come for you, and he

(47:46):
absolutely did.
He came in like bouts ofconfusion and depression and
anxiety and like worry and justlike corrupting my peace.
Um, not like a physical, likeI've been grateful that it's not
like a physical attachment or,you know, attacker anyway, but
definitely these moments of likeweakness and confusion and it's
really hard to like be on firefor god when you're like I wake

(48:09):
up every day like filled withanxiety, like that's pretty
tough.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Right.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
You just have to like declare more on that.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
And would you say that you had those things prior
to starting the podcast?
You know, it's one of thosethings where you count the cost
right, Count the cost ofdiscipleship.
Where you're saying, okay, ifI'm going to do this, here's
what I'm expecting to see.
Do I really want that, or am Ihappy with how my life is right
now?
Right, it's one of those thingswhere why would I do that?

(48:37):
Well, your love for God isdriving that, right.
It's driving like I want toknow more, and with that comes
this price, and some people justaren't willing to pay a certain
price for it, right.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah, I mean, you'll probably have way more insight
on this, sam, but I feel like,if I'm going to be honest,
because I'm the youngest in myfamily and I have always kind of
entrusted my future to others,like that's just like I've got
an old, I've got a dad, I've gotolder siblings, I've just
always been taken care of, andso maybe if I'm going to like
really psychoanalyze it rightnow, I think I just like trust

(49:09):
God because I'm like, yeah, he'ssmarter than me, he's got it.
Right now, I think I just liketrust God Cause I'm like, yeah,
he's smarter than me, he's gotit, whereas my friend who kind
of made that comment, she had away different childhood where,
like, she was kind of raisingherself and so maybe she just
approached faith of like, well,I'm in control, do I trust this
source because I've got ithandled, or you know, she just
is more cautious about it,whereas like I'm like, yeah,

(49:32):
he's been doing good so far.
So, like you know, it's atotally different approach in
authority and like where you putyour trust, whereas, like for
me, I don't question having myfuture put in the hands of
someone else.
I've done it my whole lifephysically.
And then, if it comes up to God, my creator, it's like, why
would I have better plans thanhim at this point?
At this point yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Well, that's a really good psychoanalysis and a very
good conclusion there.
I think I think you have made alot of great points with it.
With that, that's true, it'svery true, yeah, thanks.
Yeah, I mean it really pointsto our relationship with God and
that's what I love about this,like if you know there's always

(50:13):
someone in your life that'sgoing to take that primary
caregiver type of role For you.
It sounds like the spiritualrole and primary caregiver in
that regard seem to be yoursister.
Now, you mentioned othersiblings.
How many of there are you guys?

Speaker 2 (50:27):
My other siblings are also amazing Christians.
I just that sister is like atherapist, so we would always
have deep conversations, sothat's just probably why it
happened.
Uh, she's the oldest girl, butI have an older brother and he's
like the artistic, hilarious,amazing older brother.
And then there's Maggie, who'sthe therapist, she's the feeler,
she's the guider, she's theintercessor, um, and then my the

(50:48):
next sister.
I'm the youngest.
So then there's a next sisterand she's like the powerhouse,
the machine.
She can do anything she setsher mind to.
Like she's a genius much morelogical, much more pragmatic
does not fail.
It feels like.
I mean, you know what I meanshe just does everything so well
, like literally, so you're thelast out of five.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
So you're the last out of five.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
I'm the last of four and then, okay, both sisters are
married and like I wouldconsider their husbands my
brothers, like it's a great big,happy family.
But, um, I think just thevulnerable conversations were
facilitated by maggie and thefamily and that just like
enabled a safe place, uh, for usto really be able to admit,
like I'm struggling with thisand I don't know, or this is
where I need support right now.

(51:36):
And if you don't have anability to admit that and then
have like a safe place for it tobe received and then supported
rather than like, ooh, thatsucks, don't know, like can't
help you there, like no,everything was like received
with an open heart.
So, yeah, a really safe place,and Maggie was really the driver
of that.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
That's great.
Wow, yeah, that's good.
You know I'm the oldest of four, so yeah, so right, when you
said that and you were talkingabout, you said the oldest one
is usually kind of going throughthis process of I got to figure
it out, I was pressure on me,got to make sure everything's
safe for everyone else.
I mean, that was literally theway that I felt and that caused

(52:14):
an anxious attachment with God,because I feel if I didn't take
control of it or if I didn'tcreate the setting for it, then
everything was going to fail.
So my ability to trust God wascontingent on all the things
that I did.
So I did or performed a lot sothat I'd be acceptable in God's
eyes.
Right, and my dad wasn't a badthat he just wasn't as

(52:35):
emotionally present, but he wasa great provider and protector.
But he wasn't emotionallypresent.
My mom was present, but whenshe started working during our
teenage years, then that kind ofaffected the way that we handle
things at home, because I wasin charge and then you know, 12,

(52:55):
13 years old, how do you handlethat Right With, with three
younger siblings?
So yeah, I mean, again, you hitit right on the nail.
So it was, it was a really goodanalysis.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
And I think that it's , you know, a conversation worth
having more often of like,recognizing your role in the
family.
You probably understand birthorder a lot more than I do, but
I I would agree that, like, mybrother definitely takes on the
burden of like.
Are we good?
And you know, self-sacrifice isa way of like, I'm gonna make
sure you're good before I makesure I'm good and as, like the
younger sister, all you want isfor your older brother to be,

(53:26):
like, good and happy, but Ican't do anything like if you're
raised first like I have noability to fathom what he's
going through.
As the oldest brother and theoldest sibling who wants what's
best for his younger sisters.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
You sound very much so likethat trusting of the older or
the oldest sibling and so on.
That's such a key role.
Sounds like you guys have alsoa great relationship.
I have a good one with mysiblings, More so when we get
older.
As we've gotten older, we'veappreciated it a lot more.
But isn't it interesting howall of this is tying to how we

(54:00):
attach to people and how weattach to God?
All the secure people that wehave in our lives are some
reflection of who God is right.
Any type of authority figure.
So sometimes when parents arenot present, then it's the next
people in line which would bespiritual leaders in the church
or teachers at school.
So it kind of goes through thatdynamic.

(54:21):
So if it's not your parents,then when you go to church
community, it can become leaders.
And you have family members souncles, aunts, it could be that.
Or, lastly, teachers andcoaches.
So just any type of authorityfigure that you have family
members so uncles, aunts, itcould be that.
Or, lastly, teachers andcoaches, so just any type of
authority figure that you have alot of time with.
They can be what we would callcorrective attachment figures.
So, for example, for anunpresent father with his sons

(54:44):
or daughters, someone who couldtake on that role of correcting
that attachment is a coach or ateacher.
Attachment is a coach or ateacher, so that those any type
of programs like a boys andgirls club type of thing where
there's mentorship involved,like those people, become
corrective attachment figuresfor those children.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Oh my gosh, Wow, I didn't realize that that was the
order that it would fall If youdidn't have it at home.
It would go to church and thenfrom there I'd go to coaches.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Yeah, and it could vary.
It's just where are theyspending most of their time?
So for some parents who aren'tas involved, they try to keep
their kids busy, so they putthem in sports.
So who becomes the closest tothem?
Their coach?
Or they're at school all thetime and they have to stay after
school, so they're there withtheir teachers.
So it's just who do they spendthe most time with?
And for us, growing up, I mean,it was always around church

(55:29):
people.
So if we weren't visiting abrother or sister from church,
we were at church and we weredoing service and we were doing
here and playing games, and somost of my upbringing was within
that.
So my uncle, who was one of thepastors, one of the pastors
there, so I was really closewith them and their families.
So they became kind of likethose corrective attachment
figures for me as I was growingup.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Wow, that's incredible.
Thanks for mapping that out.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Yeah, and they shape your view.
They shape your view of God andyou know, for me, again, the
biggest thing was having theknowledge of God but not knowing
what an actual relationshipwith him would look like.
So I knew stuff about the Bible, I knew like the stories and
everything, but I didn't knowwhat it looked like to the
stories and everything, but Ididn't know what it looked like
to actually maintain theirrelationship, because I didn't

(56:15):
have that with my own dad, right, and so I started to develop
that as I got older with withother other men, oh so what's
the kind of support that youwould need or have gotten in the
past that like really helpedyou develop a secure attachment
with God?

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Go from like secure.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
So, honestly, the one that helped me the most was
when it came to to Liberty forgrad school, my very first
professor.
So I was first, first semesterof grad school professor.
So I was first semester of gradschool and one of my professors
.
About halfway through thesemester, I mean, I would speak
up in class and give a couple ofcomments here and there and ask
questions, and halfway throughthe semester he asked me to be

(56:59):
his GSA graduate studentassistant for the following
semester.
And I was just shocked becauseI needed a job.
I wasn't working at the time,so I had to take out a loan for
that first semester and I waslooking for a job, praying about
it.
And here's this guy, you know,who thinks that I can be a
benefit to him and I'm just, youknow, excited about it.
So I say yes, and you know,let's do it, and I become his

(57:22):
GSA.
And through that whole processhe mentored me and he I was able
to share things with him littleby little, like about my past,
about my background, and he justheard me out.
And that's never what I heard.
I always had some piece ofadvice that was given to me and
I was almost frustrated that hedidn't give me advice, he just
listened.
He listened, asked me morequestions and that made me feel

(57:44):
at ease, like okay.
So maybe it is okay for me tobring stuff to God and maybe
this is how he responds, because, you see, in the Psalms these
you know they're sharing theirhearts with God, they're sharing
their fears and their doubtsand everything, and God's not
responding harshly to them RightNow with Job.

(58:04):
You know, I think you did anepisode of that with Job and how
his attitude was.
But that wasn't my attitude.
I was fearful of sharing mysins and doubts and fears that I
had.
But when I shared it with thatprofessor who became a mentor
and now we're really closefriends that changed my view of
God.
God used this man in my life tohelp me understand him in a

(58:27):
different light, that he isgracious, that he is patient,
that he is kind and willing tolisten and is not always looking
for correction.
And everything that I did in mymind was wrong, like it could
have been better.
I could have done better, right, so it was kind of that aspect,
but I didn't feel that wayaround.

(58:48):
My professor and I was scaredabout that.
I was like this is weird.
But the more we spent timetogether he was correcting in a
sense my attachment to god andmy attachment to people, because
I now start to learn that truefriendship has space for both.
It has space for truth and ithas space for grace.
So those two things kind of wasvery powerful in that

(59:11):
friendship relationship.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yeah, oh, my gosh.
I truly like the power oftherapy and friendships and safe
places.
I was curious you know, likewell, what gave you the courage
to be able to open up and admitall of those things, for them to
be well-received.
But it sounds like just beingable to know from a historical
experience with this person thatit was consistently going to be
received well.
So you just over time develop atrust with it.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
But I imagine you know that first couple sharings
were terrifying.
Oh yeah, it was in, like it waslittle by little, like the
smallest sin you could share,right.
And then you're like how did herespond to that?
Okay, that wasn't too bad.
Then the next one you slowlywork your way up, but he was
just such a safe presence, right, and very nonjudgmental, and
just kind of listened and hewanted to understand more, like

(59:54):
what was actually going on.
Similar to kind of what you weresharing is that I think we all
just wanted to be heard andunderstood, not necessarily that
our sin would be accepted, likewe know that it's going to
carry its consequence.
But who do I share this with?
Because am I the only one whoexperiences this type of sin or
doubt?
And you realize, as you talk tomore people I'm sure you've

(01:00:15):
found that that we're all kindof struggling through similar
situations.
Just one has an area over here,one has another over here, and
we're able to kind of empathizewith that pain, but we also
encourage each other towardsgodliness, right Towards,
becoming more like Christ.
So that's the importance ofthat community piece there.
And he did do a good job ofbalancing those two things out

(01:00:39):
Truth and also grace.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
I do, who does?

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Oh, my professor did.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was like I don't think I do
that no it sounds like he didthat perfectly, and I think it
is just this like like, once weget over this hurdle of like,
okay, I have a sin that I'mstruggling with and I want to
admit it to this person, andthey're either going to judge me
or they're going to tell mewhat to do, or they're going to
say I don't know.
But I see it and I strugglewith that too, and I think it's

(01:01:08):
like the slow realization that alot of people are the latter, a
lot of people are like dude,I'm struggling with that too,
and I still don't know what todo.
And then you feel seen andheard, even if you don't have
the answer.
It's like, okay, we are allliving this human experience and
trying to do our best.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Dr Robert Miller.
I'll share this because heshared on my podcast, so
obviously he's okay talkingabout it.
But he was talking about how,like when he was an adult, he
was really struggling with likeself-loathing and like hating
himself.
And one of his friends was likedude, you have to get over this
.
This is not a good thing.
And he's like why, you know,it's a, it's a victimless crime,
like it's okay, like, admit itto a friend, but he still was

(01:01:49):
like kind of pushing it off,minimizing this thing.
He didn't really see why it wasa big deal that he hated himself
.
What was the point of solvingit?
This was just a thing that hefelt about himself.
And then when he was like he'slike I was raking leaves, he's
like the dumbest thing ever,like it wasn't even a holy
moment but any amount of holymoment, but he's raking leaves,
praying to God, and he was likeGod, why is like, what's the big
deal?
Like, why does it matter if Ihate myself?

(01:02:10):
And God like very clearly spoketo him Like this was one of
those moments, uh, saying it'sbecause you hate the thing that
I love.
And he's like, oh, okay, uh,but I, I think it is just like
that.
That's a huge God moment, justlike the fact that God spoke to
him, the fact that God revealedthat to him.
That really, really impactedhim and I'm so glad he shared
that.
But I do think that, likeability for him to admit it and

(01:02:33):
talk about it and address it,took him leaps and bounds in his
faith.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Yeah, no, it does.
It does you know?
It took me back to kind ofGenesis.
You know what was the firstthing that Adam and Eve did
after they found out that theyhad sinned?
They run and hide right andthey cover themselves, and it's
a reminder of that's exactlywhat we do.
Right, and that is the effect orthe impact of sin is that it

(01:03:03):
moves us to hide from God asopposed to move towards him.
And I always talk about thatwith attachment.
It's what is that sin, thatfalling or that failure or that
perception of yourself?
Where does it take you?
And for some, it's like itpushes me towards God, like I
have to go and confess and Ihave to go and pray to him right
away because I can't deal withit.
For others, oh, it pushes metowards this addiction.

(01:03:25):
Okay, so how do you?
How to remove that?
There's shame involved there,right?
Because the belief is that,because I have this or because I
struggled with this, goddoesn't want me or doesn't love
me, and that doesn't line upwith with biblical truth.
Right, god came out into thegarden and started to take them
out.
Where are you Right?
So he seeks reconciliation, heseeks that attachment, even

(01:03:48):
though we think that he doesn'tRight.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
So and isn't that so terrifying.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Yes yes it really is and and but it's something that
I just never experienced, thatlike it was discipline.
Actually, my dad did startdoing that a little bit once I
hit teenagers like we weredisciplined if we did something
wrong, but then he'd come in alittle bit later and he'd say
hey, do you know why?
Why that happened?
You don't know that.
I still love you.
So there was, there was therepair afterwards.

(01:04:16):
Right Attachment ruptures arecreated when there is distance
and no reconciliation.
Because if that becomes thepattern, what does that person
begin to believe?
You're not safe, you're nottrustworthy.
But if there's reconciliationafter the rupture, then that
reestablishes the secureattachment, because we want to

(01:04:36):
see consistency with repair.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Yeah, I remember Justin Gerhardt on one of our
episodes.
He was saying he's like Godwants to shine a flashlight in
your soul and he wants to findthe parts of you that you are
hiding and bring them to light.
And not in a shameful let'sexpose it so everyone can see
kind of way, but in a way oflike let's bring to surface what
you're struggling with.
I want to find it so I can helpyou through it.

(01:04:59):
And that was like a lesson hewas teaching his daughter of
like what you did is wrong, butlet's talk about it so we can
work through it.
And I remember when he wassaying that to me on the podcast
, I was struggling withsomething that I was hiding and
I was unwilling to talk aboutbecause it was like a sense of
like, shame and struggle.
And I was like I'll just likeagain that spiritual attack of
like it'll be fine, I'll gothrough it.

(01:05:19):
And I just felt like God waslike I'm ready with my
flashlight to walk you throughthis, but you have to show me
where it is.
And I was so unwilling to handit to God.
And so he was telling me thisI'm like, oh yeah, really,
that's how it works.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
But you're right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Who on this earth does that in such a loving way?
We want to know the dirt aboutevery celebrity and every like
gossipy thing, at least.
Like maybe I do, I don't know,I really struggle with gossiping
of like.
Let's talk about it and see howlike.
Oh, they do that.
I don't do that, so I must bebetter.
Like we want to bring and shinethat flashlight on the things
to like really set ourselvesapart from like.

(01:05:55):
Well, that's bad and I don't dothat.
So I'm good.
And God wants to say like let'stalk about it you deeper and
heal you through that.
I mean that just it's so rareit feels that you have a friend
on earth that does that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Yeah, yeah, I remember there being a quote
similar to what you said there.
Like we should, we should seeour sin as greater than our
neighbors, because that gives usthe ability to empathize with
our neighbors who are struggling.
Right, because the opposite,where my neighbor's sin is
greater than mine, that makes usprideful and therefore we can't

(01:06:34):
address sin in our lives.
But, we point the directionelsewhere, so that the
flashlight, as you're mentioning, is not on us but on other
people's dark places.
So that's a big principle andit can be a double-edged sword
where, if you make your sinbigger than your neighbor's, yes
, it gives you the humility tounderstand that, okay, you know

(01:06:55):
my sin is great, right, but thenwe have to also think but my
God is greater than this andthat's why I can go to him with
this sin.
But all that is based off ofthat, that secure attachment
that we're able to establishwith God.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Is it?
Do you think possible to havelike an anxious attachment or
avoidant attachment in likerelationships with your partner
but have a secure attachmentwith God, or do you think both
of them are happening at thesame time, Like if you have a
secure attachment then it'llhappen both ways or avoidant,
both ways?

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
No, because because people, certain people, would
trigger a specific type ofattachment, right so there's
some people who, because of aprevious relationship or
something in your past, thateven though you might be secure
in your I don't know you withyour best friend or you with
your sister, that might be asecure attachment and your
secure attachment with God even.

(01:07:48):
But there are some people thatwhen they kind of enter into
your life and they create someanxiety, right so your
attachment to that person mightbe anxious or avoidant, but that
doesn't mean that because youhave that type of attachment
with them means that you'regoing to have that attachment
with God.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Yeah, that makes total sense.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
That feels like a dumb question now.
No, no, because it's true,though, because we think that if
I have a anxious attachmentwith God, I'm going to have
anxious attachment with people.
That's not true.
You can have an anxiousattachment with God and actually
have a secure attachment withother people because of the way
that they make you feel, of theconsistency, right, but it's
where does that relationshipcome from?

(01:08:28):
And going back to your point ofeverything comes from God.
If I see that relationship assomething from God, then I start
to see God as someone who is asecure base because he's
provided for me, someone that isa secure base for me, right so?

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
we can make that connection there.
That's good.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
So yeah, so I think that is something that we often
do think about.
If I have a secure relationshipwith God I've been praying,
I've been reading my Bible, Ihave community, like I have a
relationship with God why can'tI have this relationship over
here?
Well, because they're not asafe, secure person, like God is
right.
Or, you know, I've really beenstruggling in my relationship
with God, but I have arelationship with this person
over here and it's a cure.

(01:09:08):
Why can't I transfer this overto my relationship with God?
Well?
maybe there's something elsegoing on, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
Like you're not fully trusting God the way you're
fully trusting that other person.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
Exactly, that's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Oh my gosh, this is really shining that flashlight,
Sam.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
Oh yeah, this is good , this is good, it's good, yeah.
So so, cassidy, we get to theend of our episode here.
Are there anything?
Is there anything that youwould like to share with others?
You, you've done a really greatjob of sharing your testimony
and I really appreciate that.
And what is a lesson or twothat you've taken, you know,

(01:09:50):
from your relationship with withChrist?
Um, that you'd like to forothers to share?
Maybe others who have been inyour situation or have your
background or your story?
Uh, what is one or two thingsthat you would say, oh, let's do
it this way.
What are one or two things thatyou would share with younger
cast?

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Oh, this is gonna make me cry.
Oh my gosh, I would.
I would probably share withyounger cast.
I mean younger cast like reallystruggled with, like knowing
she was, like loved and seen,and like fighting for her own
sense of power.
Like, oh, younger cast lackedconfidence, she didn't know
herself, she didn't know.

(01:10:32):
Oh my gosh, I got confidencelike a couple years ago.
Before that I was allpretending I think, um, I think
like, do not stop seeking.
I think persistence isabsolutely key, because that's
what got me here is like, do notgive up.
Like it is worth the fight ofsaying I don't know and being
able to admit that I think it'sbeing persistent and then being

(01:10:57):
vulnerable about I'm strugglingwith this to a point where I
have to be persistent Like Iwant God and I'm not doing it
well, so it's taking a long time.
It's okay to admit that andit's actually going to get you
closer to the finish line.
Not that I've reached thefinish line at any point, but
the finish line of like, yes, Ifinally want God.
Like I remember I startedordering Christian merch when I

(01:11:17):
first got into the podcast.
I was like I got a sweatshirtthat was like living proof of a
loving God and I would neverwear Christian wear in front of
my friends.
That seemed lame.
And I remember like, right whenI started the podcast, I like
found the sweatshirt and I waslike this is the coolest
sweatshirt I've ever seen.
I cannot wait to wear thishoodie in public, at the airport
, at these parties, at the beach.
And I remember being like Ihave never thought that thought

(01:11:40):
before.
I feel like I'm finally likeit's clicking, like I finally
want God and that is justsomething I've wanted for so
long.
It's worth the fight.
And like God is going to blowyour doors off, like whatever
you think you want right now,like God has something so much
better planned in anunfathomable way.
You'll never be able to see itcoming, you'll never be able to

(01:12:01):
predict how it happens, you'llnever be able to explain it, but
it's worth the fight to staypersistent If you don't know God
or want God.
But you're a little bit curious, you're a little bit confused.
Keep asking, keep searching,and being vulnerable is very,
very powerful.
I think learning the power ofvulnerability was something that
a friend taught me, and hewasn't even Christian, but he
said the strongest thing youcould ever do is be vulnerable.

(01:12:23):
And I don't know if this wasexplicitly said in my household,
but I definitely was like, donot give people ammo to use
against you.
Vulnerability is like thedumbest way, but it's like
that's how people hurt you iswhen you admit what's going to
hurt you.
And I had a friend just likereally teach me that
vulnerability and being able tobe like, hey, I'm really
struggling right now.
Could you be there for me?
Hey, I actually like I'mstruggling in this way, whatever

(01:12:50):
it might be, that's really hardand it actually creates
strength and connections a lotfaster than pretending like they
don't exist.
And I think being vulnerable oflike, yeah, having a sister
that I could say like I'm reallystruggling with, like sex
before marriage, like what do Ido?
And she's like, yeah, I get it.
This is why you shouldn't.
This is like God sees thatGod's want something so much
more for you.
So I also would tell youngercast like the things that you

(01:13:11):
think are filling you up areactual change.
That are chains, chains thatare bounding you, the, the drugs
and the drinking and the sexyou think it's freeing you, but
it's not.
It's weighing you down.
It is putting you behind.
You think it makes you lookcool and powerful and
experienced, but it's not.
That is not the type ofexperience and power that you
want.
It does not fill your cup, itempties it, and seeing the

(01:13:34):
riches that God provides instead, when you do align with the
fruits of the spirit, are somuch more bountiful it's
overflowing my cup.
It's actual joy.
It's lasting joy.
It's peace that helps yourecover and that absolutely
outbeats a hangover.
It absolutely outbeats a reallycool story for that one night

(01:13:54):
that it exists.
Like I kind of, like you said,like it sounds freeing, it is
freeing.
I have so much peace.
Like I don't.
I used to have plans and I justknow that they're not going to
measure up to what God hasplanned.
So like, why bother?

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
Yeah, is that like a 180 for you?

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
Yeah, I do.
I feel like in high school myfriend he's like I just feel
like there's so many chainswrapped around you right now.
Cass and I was like, well, Ilike those chains keep them on,
Like I couldn't even fathom likeletting go of like the
pleasures that I had.
And now I'm like, oh God has.
And I think it's interesting topoint out that I think a lot of
early Christians and myself islike well, I don't want to go

(01:14:32):
Christian because I have to giveup these things.
I have to give up and sacrificethe things that I enjoy in order
to fit within the mold of whatGod wants me to be, and the
crazy thing about God is that hechanges your heart to no longer
want them is like my heartposture has shifted 180 of like,
oh, I got to give up drinkingor drugs or whatever.

(01:14:55):
And I'm like, oh, I don't evenwant to do that.
Like giving up drinking, I Idon't, I'm not fully sober, but
like there was about the summerwhere I was fully sober and it
was amazing I didn't want to goout, I didn't crave going out.
It was like, oh, I'm so lame.
I'm like no, God has changed myheart that I want things that
like give me good rest and makeme feel good Saturday morning.

(01:15:16):
Like I've changed.
So you're not ever going tolike leave the things behind and
miss them in your distantChristian memories.
Like, no, you're going to be aChristian.
That's like I don't even wantthose things.
They're unattractive, they'reunappealing.
I don't hunger for them.
Like I hunger for somethingelse that actually fills my cup
yeah, so I think that's like thedon't worry about it aspect of
becoming christian.

(01:15:37):
Like it'll work out, because godliterally changes your heart
posture on how you feel aboutsin your heart posture, your
desires increase, your desiresfor him increase and desire for
everything else decreases.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
It's yeah, it's such a powerful thing For those who
have had like a bad past ingrowing up in the church.
I think they often see it thatway, where not that they're
irredeemable.
They may feel that way like ohno, because of everything
they've done, I'm not going tobe able to reestablish this

(01:16:09):
relationship with God.
But actually that's a big partof their testimony, right, and
you know it creates such a starkcontrast that it gives other
people hope that if they're gonethrough that and they're where
you are at today, that they canbe there today as well.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
Yeah, if you're like at rock bottom, like your
testimony's gonna be so good,you really add to that testimony
, right?
It's got to come through.
If you seek him, you just haveto knock on, he'll answer the
door absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
I think those are great three.
I think you get about threetips for for young cast and for
the audience, so I hope so yeahI hope so.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
I like all the glory to God.
I mean everything that'shappened.
I'm just so thankful to be apart of it.
I mean to like very clearly,like, oh, god wants me to do
this.
I'm honored.
I mean I don't want reallypeople to know my name and I
think I've definitely struggledwith, like, how big do I get my
brand, all the things that weretaught in, like the internet of
today, but I'm just gratefulthat, like, I get to be a part
of this, that I get to haveconversations that lead me on

(01:17:11):
other people's podcasts, that,like we get to like celebrate
and know that our heart posturehas changed.
Like that is a gift and I'mjust glad to be a part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for forcoming on the show.
And for those who are tuning in, cass's podcast is the
Biblically Speaking Podcast andshe interviews a lot of great
theologians and Bible scholarsand talks about all things
related to God and the Bible.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
Yeah, check it out on Apple and Spotify and we're on
Instagram called the BiblicallySpeaking Podcast, or this is
Biblically Speaking, is thehandle.
It's on TikTok, it's on YouTube, it's on Facebook, I think.
I mean, it might be on mypersonal Facebook at this point,
but yeah, we just ask questions.
We ask dumb questions becauseI'm curious and I'm confused
because this is so much deeperthan you think it is.

(01:17:57):
It's not just all the books ofthe Bible, it's everything ever
is connected to God.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Absolutely.
Thanks for coming on the show,yeah absolutely, I'm looking
forward to coming on as well.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Yeah, talk soon.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
Thank you, cass.
See you the show.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
Yeah, absolutely, I'm looking forward to coming on as
well.
Yeah, talk soon.
All right, thank you guys, seeyou.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Unraveling Faith, Attachment, and God's Grace w/ Cass Bellino

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Unraveling Faith, Attachment, and God's Grace w/ Cass Bellino

On Purpose with Jay Shetty