November 5, 2025 • 52 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
What if the fastest path to transformation is slowing down for connection? We sit with attachment-focused therapist Carley Marcouillier to explore how Christian growth and lasting psychological change flow from safety, presence, and honest relationship—first with God, then with ourselves, and finally with others. Instead of chasing quick fixes, Carley invites a new agenda: let connection lead and let change follow.
We unpack the core moves of attachment and IFS: viewing symptoms as messengers, not enemies; trading pressure for inspiration by noticing everyday “glimmers” that expand our capacity; and practicing pacing so the nervous system can settle and receive care. Carley offers a practical, faith-rooted lens for balancing community and solitude, using the question when rather than what to discern wise action. We talk about the challenge of naming needs—especially when past experiences, church messages, or cultural scripts labeled needs as weakness—and how emotions point us toward boundaries, comfort, and support.
From there, we get concrete about building the community you actually need: cultivating voice, choice, and autonomy; starting small with safe-enough risks; and creating spaces like walking groups, book circles, and intentional text threads. We also reframe Jesus’s “light burden” as both lighter weight and illuminating presence, emphasizing that we’re not meant to carry alone. Suffering in isolation wounds, but suffering with heals—through empathic witnesses, faithful friends, and the nearness of God.
If you’re tired of white-knuckling change and ready for a gentler, deeper way forward, this conversation will help you find clarity, reclaim your needs, and take your next safe-enough step. Subscribe, share with someone who needs encouragement, and leave a review to support the show.
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MY HOPE FOR YOU
I hope these episodes bring you closer to Christ and encourage you in your walk with Him. Meditating on Scripture, Being committed to prayer, and Seeking Christian community are all essential to helping us learn more of who He is and who He made us to be.
ABOUT ME 👇
I have been a Christ-follower for the last 20+ years of my life, and have seen the Lord's grace, strength, and faithfulness through it all. He led me to pursue a degree in higher education and has given me a gift for the field of counseling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Alright everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I am excited to announce thatthis is episode 99.
It's been a long road, so afterthis episode, obviously, you're
gonna hear episode 100.
And I do have something specialplanned out for that, so I hope
you're here for that.
Um, but for today, I would liketo welcome Carly Marculier.
(00:28):
Did I say that right?
She did.
Awesome.
Okay, and the first try, too.
I was like, I think I like this.
Now she'll correct me.
And Carly is an attachmentfocused therapist, and I'll let
her introduce herself in alittle bit.
But the topic we're going to becovering today is why genuine
connection is essential forChristian growth.
(00:49):
Um, so both of us kind of havingthis attachment uh-based focus
and therapy and also having aChristian background, we're
really looking to dissect thistopic and looking forward to
hearing from Carly.
And this outline, this podcast,kind of stemmed from one of her
posts.
So um excited to have thisconversation with you, Carly.
(01:11):
Um, yeah, if you just want totake some time and introduce
yourself to the audience, andthen we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_01 (01:17):
Sure.
Thank you so much for having me.
Um, I like to tell people thatI'm a northerner by heart,
southerner by choice.
Um, I moved to the Blue RidgeMountains of Virginia in 2010.
Um, I came hoping to dofull-time ministry.
Uh, and the Lord just has uhreally funny plans how he
directs our path.
(01:38):
And so through through ministry,I was really exposed to an
incongruence betweendiscipleship and mental health
themes that I was seeing in mystudents, um, and just became
really passionate aboutconnecting the two and
understanding our stories inlight of the gospel, but also
recognizing how our storiesshape our view of the gospel.
(02:00):
And so that connection for mewas really um really led me into
full-time work in the mentalhealth field after college,
which then led me to get mymaster's degree in clinical
mental health counseling fromRegent University.
Oh nice back in 2018.
And so from then on, it's beenthis beautiful journey of
connecting the two.
Um and now I have a smallprivate practice here in
(02:22):
Lynchburg.
I am an IFS informed therapist,getting trained in level one
this coming uh January.
So I'm super excited about that.
And I focus on attachment.
I've done some ABFT, which isfamily uh-based attachment work,
uh some spiritual formationintegration and relational
trauma work.
I really am interested in theintersection between trauma as
(02:44):
it relates to spiritual abuserecovery as well.
So those are kind of the spacesI dabble in.
And attachment is what I'mdeeply passionate about,
attachment science, how it helpsus understand um our each unique
framework that we have and howit helps us even inform the way
we experience our faith journeyas well.
So I'm so glad to be here andget to talk about this.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
Thank you for sharing that.
You know, it's so funny as youmentioned attachment, because
when I started the podcast, Iwas trying to figure out well,
what would be a good, good namefor it?
It was super basic.
It was like, I think the firsttitle for it was like Created to
Connect.
The second one was The Genesisof Shame, because that's where
kind of the attachment wasdisrupted, right?
(03:27):
And then I was like, you knowwhat?
I think I'm gonna focus just onthis specific topic of God
attachment, and then just addedthe healing.
So that's what it's been for thelast uh couple of seasons.
So uh yeah, here we are talkingabout attachment and how it is
an important piece torelationships and everything
that you just mentioned, justyour background, your
experience.
Um, I'm looking forward to howthis conversation is gonna
(03:49):
develop.
So yeah, well, let's go aheadand get started, Carly, with
this uh first question.
Um, as I mentioned, one of theum questions, or a lot of all
these questions actually stemfrom a post that you wrote on
your page.
So um it was why is seekingconnection more important than
(04:10):
seeking change?
And it just got me thinking, Iwas like, that's a very good
question, right?
Because most people who come totherapy, they want to see
change.
And in the pursuit of change,often, I think this is what
happens sometimes, they mightmiss the connection.
But am I kind of hearing thatright?
I mean, obviously, I'm gonna letyou elaborate on on the on that
(04:31):
point, but that's kind of whereI went with that question, I
guess.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Yeah, no, that's great.
Yeah, this post kind of came outof a collection of quotes from
clients, actually.
So I'll give it the props.
Um, I just learned so much insitting in this chair.
And so for me, one of thequestions that I guess I took
quotes from clients and I turnedthem into questions.
Yeah, because there was this umwe say in IFS therapy all the
(04:59):
time, the agenda is connection.
Because, right, like you'resaying, oftentimes when you're
coming into therapy, for manyclients entering the therapy
space, it can be really easy towant to just change something.
Most people come to therapybecause they want something to
be different in their life,whether it be internally or
externally in their life.
And so, but the reality of mymaybe a holistic or
(05:20):
attachment-based uhtrauma-informed perspective
would say that that symptomsaren't just things to be fixed,
right?
And and maybe the DSM wouldcould would suggest otherwise if
we're gonna pathologize.
But in this particular realm,when we're looking at it from a
trauma-informed lens, we'reseeing symptoms not just as you
(05:40):
know, distressing, because theysome of them can be very much
so, but they also are uh datathat is trying to communicate
something and in parts, uh IFSuses the language of parts, but
you could say emotions, uhstates, whatever we want to call
it, this idea that um it's oursystems way, our body's way of
(06:01):
trying to get our attention,trying to reconnect what maybe
has been disconnected.
Um this is so beautiful becauseit rather than you know focusing
more on like behavior change,right?
We're actually leaning intoconnection.
And I see this in so manydifferent realms.
We're looking at ittheologically or
attachment-based.
(06:21):
Um, from the internal familysystems model, connection is the
pathway to healing.
And we'd look at so manydifferent modalities that have
different perspectives on this,like behavioral or solution
focus, which can maybe fixbehaviors from a surface level
perspective.
Um, but this type of work,connection work, I would say,
right, integration work, reallyfocuses on allowing ourselves to
(06:47):
feel safe, seen, soothed, right,and brought to security, which
is that that attachmentframework that maybe we missed
growing up.
Um I would say that all of thatthen leads to change, positive
change or transformation,healing, want to call it.
Um, but it's a different way ofdoing it.
And I like to kind of pose it inthe relationship to what does it
(07:11):
feel like, right?
If I say the agenda is fix it,change it, right?
What does that feel like in yourbody?
And I oftentimes ask and clientsthat when they're like, I just
want this to change.
I'm like, what's that like tofeel like you got to fix it?
And if I offer this invitationof what if we could just connect
with that feeling, what doesthat feel like?
Um, oftentimes it's a likeimmediate, like the physical
(07:31):
shift in the body, just is like,oh, that feels so much lighter.
SPEAKER_02 (07:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
And I wonder if maybe that is evidence that
connection is like a beautifulfirst step.
SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it it's it's so goodto hear you say that because I
think one of the barriers, Iguess, that a lot of clients
face is that if I'm not seeingchange right away, then either
I'm doing something wrong or mycounselor is doing something
wrong, right?
Because they want to see change.
And I get it, right?
I think if I was in their shoes,I'd say the reason why I'm here,
(08:03):
why I'm paying you is so I cansee change.
And the work that we do,especially when we're working
with trauma or or justcounseling in general, is that
it takes time.
I mean, we're helping overcome,you know, years of patterns, of
relating and so on.
And um, you know, I kind of umunderstand them when they want
(08:26):
that, and how hard it is for usprobably to just sit with that
too.
At least I've I felt it, wheregosh, I wish I could get you
there, but this is gonna taketime, you know.
Um, yeah, can you speak a littlebit more to that?
Like the desire for people tocome to counseling and wanting
change, and maybe at some pointthe realization is, you know
(08:47):
what, maybe it's thistherapeutic alliance that we've
established that's helping mesee life differently.
Um, yeah, what else would youadd to that, that the connection
piece that people are missing?
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Yeah, something that I like to tell clients when they
first come to see me is becauseoftentimes people have, like
you're saying, they have amisconception of what therapy is
in general.
Um, like I'm gonna come and I'mgonna ask you questions, you're
gonna tell me what to do or tellme how to fix it, right?
And I'm like, oh, that's notwhat I do.
Maybe you don't want to see me.
Um, but one of the things that Ilike to let clients know is, you
(09:24):
know, even more so than even mytherapeutic relationship, which
is I think the most importantpiece because I get to be the
empathic witness that allowsthem to then build that within
themselves.
I like to let them know that mygoal is for them to be able to
connect with themselvesdifferently.
And so this is from like aninternal perspective.
So we have these differentlayers of like the way that I
(09:46):
connect with myself, the waythat I connect with God, that
all is going to change the way Iconnect externally.
Because we're normally coming infor an external problem most of
the time, right?
We say all problems arerelational problems.
Um, and so in that sense, itallows clients to maybe get a
little bit larger of a scope tosee, like, oh, like I've been so
(10:06):
focused on maybe the externaldynamic of my life.
And I haven't given anyattention to connecting with
like what I feel or think orwant or need.
And so um bringing them to thisconcept of what does it mean to
connect with myself?
What does it mean to connectwith God?
And for some people, that wasn'tallowed or that was seen as bad
(10:27):
or sinful, right?
So we have to, there's a lot ofwork to be done, even just
around the concept ofconnection.
Uh, but it that's a beautifulstarting place.
And it is a slow place.
So oftentimes I talk a lot withclients about pacing.
Uh and I ask the question, youknow, what what would happen if
we didn't get there right now?
You know, because there'snormally a valid fear or concern
(10:49):
around what the urgency is.
Um and I don't know if it's aquote, but I heard it recently
and I loved it.
Is this idea like that if we'repatient with something, it means
we care about it.
And so that's kind of thelanguage of this.
It's softer, it's gentle becauseit matters.
It matters to go slow,especially if from an attachment
(11:09):
perspective, you know, oursystem has been forced to adapt
in order to maintain connectionor safety.
There is an urgency because it'sstill in that survival mode.
And so being able to slowclients down to say this can
take as much time as you need.
Uh, and are you willing to letit take as much time as it
needs?
Um, is it's a very differentapproach.
(11:30):
And you know, maybe not foreverybody, but I think it is a
beautiful invitation.
It can really soften, um, andI've seen it soften uh clients
immediately, even just thatinvitation of, hey, we don't
have to rush this.
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
That's true.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
And I think there tends to be sometimes, and maybe
I'm rambling, but this idea ofthe therapist even wants me to
get better quick.
And I I I remind clients likethere is no agenda over here.
The agenda for me is to connectwith you, to connect with
yourself.
And even that pacing and umexpectation can be helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
Yeah.
No, that was great.
That was great.
You know, I don't know, did youexperience this too, Carly?
Where at the beginning, when Ifirst started, because I was, if
I were to go to counseling as aclient, I think that would have
been my approach.
So when I became a counselor, itwas like my thought was I'm
doing something wrong becauseI'm not helping them get to
(12:25):
where they need to get, right?
Where they want to go.
So that was my struggle earlyon.
And I realized with time,especially when doing trauma
work, that it has to take time.
It has to take time.
And to your point, there's thispatience about it, and it's
inviting and it's warm and it'scaring for the process to get
(12:46):
there, you know.
Um, I don't know if youexperienced that, but that was
so hard for me initially, andthen afterwards, now it's just I
can sit there with them, makethat invitation, and walk with
them, right?
Um, one of the trauma experts inthe field is uh Dr.
Guy Bermante, and he talks aboutthis idea of compassion.
(13:07):
He speaks of it in the I want tosay it's Latin, and compassion
means to suffer with.
And that has changed my wholeapproach to sitting with clients
as they walk through, you know,their trauma or whatever the
case is.
But yeah, that was a tough onefor me through uh when I first
started.
SPEAKER_01 (13:23):
Yeah, oh, I totally agree.
Uh and the pressure that put onme, right, as the therapist, um,
to have all the answers.
And to, you know, the way Ipractice now is oftentimes
really letting the client know,like, I believe you have the
answers.
And I I get the honor of likehelping you find them.
(13:45):
And that one takes the pressureoff of my system and also opens
them up to like, oh, like I do,like I can start being curious
about that.
Because but it is it for foranybody listening that's like in
their practicum internship, youknow, it's supervision hours,
like it takes time to like likeslow down and and create that
pace too.
(14:05):
So we can be gentle withourselves just as much as we
learn to be gentle with ourclients.
SPEAKER_00 (14:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um there was this other partthat you mentioned in there, I
guess also from from yourclients, that you said when it
comes to healing, what do youmean by we should be inspired as
opposed to pressured?
So we need to be inspired asopposed to pressured.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
So there, yeah, this is um kind of the idea that
there's a misconception aroundlike really what healing is.
So maybe we can start there.
Um the that healing is somehowlike the destination, like I'm
gonna do therapy and then I'mhealed and then I'm done, right?
And um kind of dancing aroundthis idea that what if it's not
(14:51):
necessarily about a destinationor a like a checkbox, um, or
even like like oh, a reductionof symptoms, because I think so
oftentimes we'll see that aswell.
I just want to stop feelingblank.
And yet if healing is less aboutlike the removal of something
and more about the expansion ofour system into experiencing
(15:13):
goodness, passion, safety,delight, etc.
Right.
Um, and so in that way, if we'review, if we're viewing healing
through that lens of like oursystem's ability to experience
goodness, and goodness can bemany things, then it takes the
pressure off, right?
Because I think there is, again,going back to this idea of like
(15:35):
change and pressure, I think Ithink the two coexist, right?
And that uh if I really wantsomething to change, I'm gonna
be kind of like, I think it'sAndy Kobler that says like white
knuckling it, right?
Like white knuckle thetherapeutic process.
And I love that concept of themore we do that, the actually
the more it actually actuallydecreases or creates barriers to
our work, uh, because thepressure doesn't allow us to
(15:58):
expand, right?
I think it's Peter Levine thathas that really cool.
I don't know if you've seenthese, uh, the little balls that
kind of expand open really largeand then they get really small
and concave on themselves.
Peter Levine has this reallybeautiful analogy of this um the
somatic experience where thenervous system expands to
connection and it it closes, itcontracts to safety.
(16:22):
And so when I when we weretalking about this in session,
the client was like, I want tobe inspired, not pressured.
It was this beautiful languagearound what if what if expansion
is is actually what heals usmore than like the pressure, the
the pressure to perform or thepressure to get better, whatever
the pressure was for thatparticular person.
(16:45):
And so one of the things that Iteach my clients a lot is
connection and safety, they'reboth important.
Um, and so when we focus onexpansion in the system, we have
to do that gently.
And if we do that too fast, wetry to go too quick, if we try
to pressure our system intobeing safe or being whatever
(17:06):
we're the agenda is potentiallyinternally, we can actually do
more damage.
And so inspiration is oftentimesmore of a gentle invitation to
pay attention to delight.
And pay attention, we call itbeauty hunting, right?
In in the therapeutic space ofit can be small moments,
(17:27):
glimmers.
There's lots of different wordsfor this, right?
It can be as like sometimes it'slike the way the sun comes
through the window or uh thecoffee that I drink in the
morning, right?
Whatever it is that just islike, oh this is good.
I love this, right?
These are glimmers and and andhow inspiration actually, right?
(17:47):
The these connections to what isgood is what is increasing our
capacity for healing.
Uh that's kind of where we'rewhat what we were talking about
in that particular question wasjust what if, like what would
that feel like to be inspiredrather than pressured into this
process of becoming whole?
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
Yeah, no, that's great.
That's great.
It's it is amazing how much welearn from our clients as they
give us those little nuggets ofinsight, right?
Um, and it kind of leads to thisidea.
I mean, everything that we'retalking about, I think is
leading to the importance ofconnection and building a
community that we need.
Um, but I think one of thethings that stands out to me as
(18:29):
I think about clients and thinkabout the work that we do is the
difficulty that some people haveexpressing needs, right?
Like I need this.
It sounds, it sounds likeweakness in a sense, or at least
I think that's how some peopleperceive it.
I know how I perceived it when Ifirst started.
It was like, gosh, to say that Ineed something, why?
(18:50):
I'm the oldest of four, you'rethere for younger brothers and
sisters, you kind of put thosethings to the side because you
need to sacrifice yourself forothers, right?
And a lot of people kind of havethis, especially if they
experience trauma, where they'reput in this position where they
have to do the things just tosurvive.
And that's all they've everknown.
So when we see our clients thatcome into the office, why else
(19:12):
do you think it's difficult forpeople to express those needs
out outside of maybe maybe it'sthat they feel that it feels
weak, or maybe it's that theydon't want to ask for help or
want to be a bother, which isanother common um statement that
people make, right?
But yeah, what what have youseen with regarding that?
Why is it hard for people toexpress their needs to even the
(19:34):
people that love them?
SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
Yeah, it's it's such a complex context for this
because I think it'smultifactorial, right?
Whether it be I think it'sprimary, you know, I would go
back to attachment experiencesbecause if we are wired for
connection and that's the basisof our context here, that we
automatically talk about things,like we move towards each other.
(19:59):
That's that's the design.
Then what makes us not?
Right?
That's always my question.
And from um, I think it's likean ABFT perspective, like an
attachment-based perspective.
The question that we askadolescents in this work with
families is um, did you did youor do you feel safe to move
towards your primary caregiveror your parent when you have a
(20:20):
problem?
And oftentimes problems areindicative of needs.
So we could we could fill it inthere if you had a need, if you
have a problem, why or why not?
And the the answer to that isoftentimes really telling,
right?
And so I like to encouragepeople to ask the question, you
know, if it's if it's hard forthem to uh express their needs,
maybe they don't even know whattheir needs are because they've
(20:41):
been so exiled from theirsystem.
Um we're told they shouldn'thave needs, or you know, needs
are selfish if we're gonna usethe Christian context for that,
um, placing other people's needsabove our own, right?
We have all of these burdens umthat can kind of uh eliminate
the beauty and the thereceptivity of what needs I
(21:03):
think can be, right, inrelationship with one another.
Um, and so I like to encouragepeople to ask, like, how are my
needs responded to as a child?
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
Because that can tell us a lot about why it might
be difficult to express ourneeds now.
And that's what I tend to seethe most.
It's like it just wasn't safe.
Or it was dismissed or shamed,right?
There's so many differentresponses that people get to
their needs, and so those thoseexternal responses get
internalized, and then from thatinternalization, we are almost
(21:36):
like telling ourselves we'rebelieving those things, right?
And then um kind of disembodyingin a lot of ways from what what
our system is trying to tell usthat we need.
And I like to use the phraselike our needs, like our
emotions oftentimes tell us whatwe need.
And so there's anotherconnection to maybe a holistic
(21:57):
experience of if you don't knowwhat your needs are, right?
If it's hard to express thembecause we don't even know what
they are, then maybe listen tothe emotion that we're having,
because that sometimes can umget us to, oh, I think I know
what I need.
Like anger is a good example ofthat.
Most people will be like, oh,anger's, you know, anger's bad.
And like, well, rage is bad, badif we want to use a label for
(22:18):
it.
But anger tells me what I don'twant.
Anger tells me what I don'tlike, anger tells me what I
need, which is oftentimes aboundary if I'm getting angry,
right?
So um those are just a fewthoughts that I have when it
comes to like expressing needs.
There's such a um context fordeveloping and and developing
(22:38):
safety really so that needs canbe expressed.
And I would say, and maybe we'llget into this a little bit when
we're talking about community,but um, one of the pieces that I
think is really challenging whenwe're looking at attachment
adaptations, whether you aren'tnaming yourself as like more
anxiously attached, or um, Iwould say we're we have all of
them for sense of attached.
(22:59):
Yeah, yeah, for differentrelationships, right?
Um, but wherever we findourselves on that grid of
attachment, we can really noticethat naming our needs or knowing
that I can meet my needs is onehalf of the equation, and
knowing that people want to meetmy needs is the other half.
SPEAKER_02 (23:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
And so some people are like, I can meet my needs,
like I'm more of avoidantattached individual.
So I'm like, I got it, I'mindependent, I can do it, right?
But then we have someone else,it's like, I can't, I need
someone.
And so we have these imbalancesthat make it really difficult
within relationship with oneanother.
And so when it comes to likeexpressing needs, that building
(23:38):
of safety that I mentioned aminute ago, I'm curious about
what does it look like to buildthat internally first with
myself and with God, so thatwhen I'm going externally into
relationships and buildingcommunity and connection with
others, that that sense ofknowing that God is there for me
and knowing that I am there forme, I can build that agency and
(23:59):
um we call it self-leadership inthe IFS, but uh just the beauty
of those different levels ofconnection that we can make with
ourselves and then how we canhonor our needs.
I think it's Pete Skazeiro thatsays, you know, your needs in
the family of God, your needsare a delight.
And I don't know if many of usbelieve that because we've been
told a different message fromsociety, from our families.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
But it needs oh, sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
No, no, no, and you're right, and that's a good
point too, because we aretalking to a Christian audience,
and I mean you you you said itperfectly where I think most
Christians believe or wemisinterpret or misapply that
passage of sacrificing yourselffor the for others and take it
to an extreme, right?
(24:45):
Now I I've had a hard timewrestling with that because I
think today the emphasis hasbeen so much on me, right, and
not others, but we'recommunity-oriented people,
right?
So it if you isolate too much orfocus so much on your needs that
(25:05):
you don't use that time away toreinvest back into the
community, then there'ssomething missing, right?
And then there's the other partwhere if you're so invested in
the community but have no timeto yourself, then you don't have
anything else to give, right?
So I often find that with a lotof Christians where I was on
that side where I was burnedout, but in my head, sacrificing
(25:27):
yourself was honorable, noble,the Christian right thing to do.
And I still believe that, but Ihave more balance now.
So can you speak a little bit tothat?
Just just the struggle ofconnecting.
How can I be serving others,meeting other people's needs
while also investing in my ownpersonal walk with Christ so
(25:48):
that I can, you know, come backand serve or invest in the
community in a sense.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
It's such an important conversation.
And the the thing that I thinkabout when you said that was
this idea of balance.
And so right, I hear thepolarization of that is like
either I can have needs or Ican't have needs, right?
It's like one or the other.
And what I've learned and what Itend to try to embody and like
teach is this idea of like, it'snot about what, it's about when,
(26:18):
right?
Like, when is it appropriate totake time for self, right?
Or to to meet my needs uh or tomeet others' needs.
And so it's it's more nuanced,it's not as simple as black or
white, it's not as simple as yesor no.
Um, and so I think that's wherediscernment, and we could you
know talk about this from areally theological perspective,
(26:39):
but what I love about um, Ithink it's within the IFS
framework, it talks about tone,timing, and texture.
And that really helps my systemwith asking the questions of
like when, right?
So it and this helps me findbalance.
So if the tone, timing, andtexture of whatever the ask is
(26:59):
or whatever the need is, right?
Um, that's sometimes it'sslowing down enough to kind of
listen and pay attention tolike, what's the like does this
feel really urgent?
Like, do I need to do it rightnow?
Um, like let's use this in thein the context of like meeting
someone else's needs.
Um, because I think that's wherea lot of Christians get hung up,
right?
It's like I have to meeteverybody's needs because that's
(27:21):
what God's called me to.
And I would say that is aninvitation, but is it always?
Like, did Jesus always go to thepeople, or was there times where
he moved away in solitude?
Like he did this beautifully,where it was like it was time
and it was also time to um restand and be with God.
And so being able to kind ofhold that space of what's the
(27:43):
timing on this?
Does it feel really urgent, ordo I feel like there's enough
space to make this decision,check in?
Um, the texture of it is like,is it really like critical?
Like if you don't, dot, dot,dot, right?
If it it is, is it more of aninvitation of like God's like
opening this opportunity?
Um, and then the the way it'ssaid too, like not just like the
(28:04):
tonation of it, but the textureof the language that we're
saying to ourselves or thatsomeone's saying to us, right?
So those those three T's reallyhelp me and um really allow me
to kind of get curious about thewhen of my needs or the when of
other people's needs, ratherthan automatically, you know.
I I probably lean more as as youdo to this, like, I'll help
(28:26):
others.
Yes, I want to say yes, I wantto help.
Um, and yet that burned me outfast.
And so honoring our edges isalso holy work too.
And that's hard to acknowledgeour limitations and our need for
rest and God too.
So it's it's more of a balance,which is so much more complex
and and allows us into the ideaof inviting God into that space
(28:49):
to ask.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I really like what yousaid there about uh the when,
right?
It's it's um to your point, thethe duality of it's either this
or that, right?
The black and whites, this orthat.
And I remember one of myprofessors said, and maybe this
is what you were kind ofalluding to, is that what if
it's just both?
But to address both, it's okay,when?
(29:10):
When do I address this part?
When do I address that part,right?
And that's that that's such ahard concept, I think, sometimes
for Christians because theythink there's only one right way
to do it.
And one of my professors, he heshared this.
Um, he said, you know, sometimesin life you're making decisions
that's not necessarily right orwrong, but the question that you
(29:31):
want to ask yourself, is itwise?
Is it wise for me to take, makethis decision and so on?
And it kind of removes that thatpiece of I'm gonna make a
mistake, as opposed to I'm gonnatrust God in this process, and
based on what I know about hisword, about his character, I'm
gonna go this way.
And if the door is shut, thenit's shut.
But it seems like the wise thingto do right now, right?
(29:53):
And um, so I think that'susually what I help clients with
too is that when they'restruggling with something, they
want to make it black.
Or white, and they say, Well, ifI don't do this, then it's gonna
go all wrong, right?
Yeah, maybe it's okay to haveboth.
There's fear about entering thatrelationship, but also it sounds
like they're a great person,right?
So it's one of those those typesof things where you try to help
(30:14):
them hold both things at thesame time.
But I really like I really likethat concept you mentioned of
when?
When do I need to tend toothers?
When can I attend to myself?
SPEAKER_01 (30:24):
Yeah, both are important.
SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:27):
That that middle space is that's where the
tension is, right?
It's way harder to be there.
Yeah, to hold that discomfort,but it it gets easier.
We create space in that.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
Now, um, Carly, do you notice a difference between
how men and women respond tothese different needs?
Um, I'm looking at two separatelayers.
One is gender, and the other isculture.
So I'm Latino background, andthis aspect, again, this is one
of the things that I had towrestle with as I, you know, had
(30:59):
my own um journey to becoming acounselor is okay, it is highly
honored in Latino culture to beself-sacrificial.
You have your role, you haveyour role, and you give it all,
right?
And you work hard and all thesedifferent things.
That, and then you're also aman, so you have different
expectations as a man.
So this whole idea, I don't, Idon't think I should, I haven't
(31:20):
shared this with you, but goinginto the field of counseling as
a Latino male received a lot ofpushback.
So, so it was one of thosethings where I was like, okay, I
felt shame, I felt guilt, I feltall these different things.
So I think when we talk aboutneeds, there's a space that
seems to be a little bit moreopen for women to share.
(31:40):
What are your needs?
Not so much for men, but alsomaybe men's needs are a little
bit different.
And Dr.
Honeycutt and I have talkedabout this a lot.
It's like, you know, maybe we'readdressing men's issues in a way
that's not um not that it's nothelpful, but in a way it doesn't
invite them or make them feellike I'm actually listening to
(32:01):
what they're actually needing,if that makes sense.
But have you seen anydifference?
I I don't know if you work justwith pure females or or or mix.
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
Well, I I've I've seen a few males and I see
families sometimes, so I'veworked with some ads.
Um, but I I would say that likejust social, like the
socialization of men, I justhave so much empathy.
Like um, it's justheartbreaking.
And I don't know if you've readthe book, um, You're the One
You've Been Waiting For byRichard Schwartz, but he has a
(32:32):
whole chapter on thesocialization of gender, and
it's fantastic because it reallydoes um showcase like how men
and women, although I don't liketo like generalize on gender,
but I do believe gender andculture play massive roles
because it is multifactorial,but the the idea that men and
(32:54):
women are nurtured differently,like I don't know what the stats
are.
Um I don't want to make some up,but it was like something along
the age of like six or seven,boys are treated drastically
different than girls are.
SPEAKER_03 (33:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
And and the messages around masculinity, right?
And and uh different uh menhaving different different needs
than women.
And it's like all of us havebasic, basically the same needs,
and maybe we express itdifferently, but like needs for
support and love and kindnessand just like those basic ones,
I think get kind of stomped outin some ways culturally, um,
(33:28):
just for for men and versuswomen.
And I think there's somemessages for women too that are
just as toxic and painful.
Um, and so I do see both playinga significant role and how we
perceive them.
And I like to use like thecollection of how past
experiences, our perceptions ofthose past experiences and our
(33:51):
personality all right, all kindof connect to how we maybe
perceive our needs, express ourneeds.
And I think gender and cultureplay a huge aspect in like that
past experience and ourperception, you know,
information of personality.
But it is a really interestingthing to know because I think
(34:12):
men and women maybe havedifferent um challenges, even
though they it's similar in thesense of like maybe we have a
difficult time expressing ourneeds, but maybe for different
reasons.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
Sure.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's superhelpful.
And maybe that's what kind ofleads to this aspect of um even
how we see goals for counseling.
Um in counseling, it seems thatmaybe for some people it's
helpful to gain some clarity,right?
So what when we make the goalclarity, what is what does that
(34:45):
do for clients?
How does that help clients liketo see um I guess this have a
different perspective than whatthey've had?
But yeah, can you elaborate juston uh what was meant by the goal
being clarity?
SPEAKER_01 (34:58):
Yeah.
So this is specific, I rememberthe session um where there was
just like a lot of uncertainty.
And I like that picture of like,have you ever seen that meme?
It's like the yarn ball, andit's like all modeled, and then
the therapist is like it'strying to pull out the yarn and
like organize it.
(35:19):
And oftentimes I think that isthat is where a lot of clients
start from.
There's a lot of uncertainty atthe onset of therapy, and
oftentimes, right, that's wherediscomfort, uncertainty, not
having answers, that's where alot of people have a hard time
just sitting in that.
And so there's a differencebetween getting our questions
(35:39):
answered and clarity, right?
And so, and I think that's kindof the invitation that was made
in that session was just like,what if what if the goal, what
if the goal in therapy couldjust be clarity instead of like
this firm, fixed destination?
Because clarity is an ongoingprocess of understanding to
clear space to understand whythis is in one hand and this is
(36:03):
in the other.
And and through clarity, sure,we maybe get an outcome, but
that's not necessarily the goalof it, right?
Because again, going back topressure and change, if we're
really agenda setting, it cankind of um untie the process a
little bit more.
And so not necessarily seeking aspecific answer to something,
(36:25):
but more on the ways of likeconnecting dots.
Um, we like to call ittrailheads in IFS therapy,
right?
This idea of like following thetrailhead until we understand.
And that leads to a deeper,deeper understanding of myself,
God, and others.
And even just that alone is likeworth going to therapy.
I think a lot of times peoplethink they should go to therapy
(36:46):
if they have like a major thinghappening, but I think anybody
can gain clarity, just learningabout giving themselves time to
know themselves.
And so that's what that's what Iwas kind of hinting at is like,
what if clarity could be a goal?
And that feels soft and gentle.
SPEAKER_00 (37:02):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's it's funny thatyou mentioned as you started to
elaborate on it, thisillustration from again.
I'll do a shout-out, Dr.
Corsini.
He's always embedded a lot oftime with me.
But he uh he kind of gave thisillustration of as counselors,
when we have clients who come tous, they're looking for like
four things, right?
(37:22):
And one of them is kind oftaking the role of the
optometrist.
And we're trying on thesedifferent glasses to see what
helps you see things a littlebit clearer, right?
It's for you like gainingclarity.
Well, maybe one side's a littlebit off, but you know, we'll
correct that and so on.
So they come in and they seeclarity and say, Whoa, wow,
that's their aha moment, right?
Um, and then there's another onewho may look for a survival
(37:43):
guide, someone who's beenthrough the trenches, who's been
through the same road thatthey're going through, and they
just are able to empathize andunderstand exactly what it is
that they're that they're goingthrough.
Um, others want maybe a coach,someone who's just encouraging
them, right?
They don't have anyone on thereum supporting them, they don't
have a social support system.
So the counselor kind of playsthis role of coaching them
(38:05):
through this process, like beingan encourager, supporting them,
and so on.
And then there's the last onethat we've kind of addressed,
but is not really our role, isthat of a mechanic where people
come in and they just want tofix the problem, right?
Tell me what the problem is,I'll go in and I'll fix it.
And actually, some clients areable to do that.
Like if you just highlight oneissue for them, it's like, oh,
(38:27):
that's the problem.
I can go and fix it.
But again, I share all this inclarifying that really what
we're looking for, though, isthe connection that is based off
of these things, right?
Because those things, when weprovide those insights for
clients, it does create a deeperconnection because you just help
clarify or you help me identifyor you help me with something,
(38:49):
and that makes me trust you.
Now, a big part of that is alsohow we're relating, right?
Empathy and connecting and soon.
But I really just like thepicture that we're painting of
what therapy can actually looklike because it doesn't just
look one way, you know.
Um, I was doing part of mydissertation was writing on uh
(39:09):
taking in the stories of theseLatina counselors.
And one of them, her big thingwas uh she said, you know what?
I'm not the typical counselor.
Like there's counselors who arejust soft and gentle and kind,
and I I'm just not like that.
So I struggled with thisidentity piece of, well, I'm not
like that.
Can I be a good counselor?
So for her, one of the thingsthat she kind of uh mentioned
(39:32):
was that she is able to help theclients kind of hold a mirror to
themselves and help them reflecton, oh, here's where there's
work that needs to be done,here's where work needs to be
done.
So those of you guys who arelistening, counseling looks very
different.
It depends on your counselor, itdepends on the process.
But one thing that is certain inall of the sessions, it is this
(39:54):
desire for connection, right?
And that we can develop thatinformed that.
Um, you know, obviously we havethis spiritual integration piece
with okay, what is what is God,um, what is God trying to do
through all of this?
Um, there was one other questionthat you had on there, and we'll
get to the community one aswell.
But one of the questions thatyou had was, what if the burden
(40:17):
we are meant to carry is light?
Right.
And I I I read it twice and Ididn't know if you meant what if
the burden we are meant to carryis light, or what if the burden
to carry is light?
I don't know if that makessense.
It makes sense in my head.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
I just don't know if I'm glad you picked up on that
because I I kind of meant inboth ways.
Um, but it it obviously comesfrom Matthew 11 and the idea of
you know when God invites us tobring our burdens to Him, right?
To come, all who are weary andheavy laden, I will give you
(40:52):
rest.
For my yoke is easy, my burdenis light.
And the more I meditate on that,the more I think about it, it
could, I I know it's meant to bethis like like physically light
load, but what if it's alsolight, right?
Like light to the world, uhwitness to the light, all of
those types of things.
But um, in this context, I thinktoo, when we're looking at just
(41:17):
the process of connecting withourselves, with others, with
God, sometimes that's it'sheavy, right?
Sometimes going back and doingthe work of therapy is is hard
and heavy work.
And so this invitation of um theburden that we're carrying.
I remember this interaction witha client and she made a comment
(41:37):
like, oh, well, I have to, Ihave to please everybody, or I
have to, there was some sort oflike burden around her Christian
upbringing.
And I remember saying, I wonderif if the burden isn't light, I
wonder if it's not from God.
Like just being curious aboutthat.
And so that's kind of where thisidea came from with what if when
when when Christ invites us intopartnership with him, because
(42:01):
that's connect ultimately that'swhat we're aiming for is this
connection, this union with God.
And and he's inviting us intonot just carrying the burden of
life of our stories on our own.
And there's some hope in that tosay, like, maybe maybe not not
just because it's heavy doesn'tmean I don't have to carry it,
(42:22):
but that I'm never called tocarry it alone.
And and and if we were to getinto like right the this yoke,
right?
And how the they would normallyput one ox that was um larger
and older with a younger ox,right?
And so the the beautifulinvitation of this is are are we
inviting God in?
Are we connecting?
(42:42):
Um, or have we even been toldthat God wants to connect with
us in our burden?
He wants to carry the load andallow us to learn from him.
Um, and so the question I alwayslike to offer clients is what
amount of my burden that I'mcarrying that, you know, there's
some burdens we unburden from,and there's others that we
aren't called to unburden from,whether that be just things
(43:03):
outside of our control.
And so with those burdens, wecan say, you know, how much of
this burden am I trying to carryalone in my own strength?
And what would it feel like toinvite the comfort of God or the
nearness of God into that withme?
SPEAKER_00 (43:17):
Yeah.
And what would that feel like,right?
Like what what would what do youthink the clients experience in
moving from the weight of lifeto now joining together with
Christ, inviting him into thatsituation and feeling it like?
Like what do they describe thatfeeling as?
SPEAKER_01 (43:38):
So I'm thinking of a few um instances.
So I do a lot of a manual prayerin session and God imagery work.
Um, and and what is always sopowerful about that is is when
clients are experiencing thisand it's more of their
experience than mine, right?
I get to witness it, but thereis this, maybe not even
(43:59):
somatically, but some clientshave described just like um
feeling empowered, right?
There's this empowerment.
Um the the biggest challengethat I think the core, and I
don't know, there's probablylots of research around this,
but this core feeling of beingalone, right?
That is the essence ofdisconnection, right?
And so if we're all marred withthat, that fear, right?
(44:23):
That innate fear ofdisconnection, then this beauty
of connection allows us to feellike I can do it.
And there's there's someincredible research on suffering
and how suffering alone is whatcauses trauma, right?
Like this the lack of anempathic witness, right?
Um, but when we are in it withsomeone, it it's we can endure,
(44:45):
right?
And there is a there's acoexistence, like we were
talking about earlier, whereit's not that it doesn't, it's
not that it's not painful, it'snot that it's not heavy, but
that I'm not, I'm with, I'mwitness in it, and someone is
sharing in that.
And so oftentimes I thinkthere's an experience of God's
compassion or God's grace orGod's just nearness, like
(45:06):
feeling like he gets it, right?
Like feeling that there's awitness to my um experience and
that he cares about thatexperience.
Uh and so those are just a fewthoughts, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, um, I often thinkabout how much Paul even
emphasized in his letters, likethe one another's, right?
See a lot in Corinthians and soon.
And yeah, this aspect of notjust, you know, inviting the
church or inviting people withinthe church community to join in
on that.
And I think one thing maybe thatwe had missed um years ago is
(45:42):
teaching people or or knowinghow to sit with the pain of
other people, right?
So something bad happens tosomeone, and we always want to
have the right words to say, youknow, um, or want to provide
comfort through words whensometimes it's just sitting with
people.
Um, I interviewed a friend lastyear, I think maybe two years
(46:04):
ago, and they had lost a baby.
They had lost two babiesactually.
And he said, I was surprised byhow many people um were trying
to be kind, but in trying to bekind with their words, they
actually hurt us a little bitmore.
And I said, So what so whathelped?
And he said, I think it was whenpeople just sat with us and they
(46:25):
just heard us out and didn'tfeel the need to say anything.
And you know, it's it reminds mejust of those moments of silence
when you know the Israelites orwhen um people in scripture were
going through their strugglesthat they felt like they didn't
hear God was silent, but hewasn't, he was waiting patiently
as they went through thatprocess, right?
(46:45):
And I think um I think that'ssomething that we can take from
this aspect of uh one another'suh of being there for one
another, is sometimes it's justsitting there in the suffering
with that person walking throughwith them.
You know, um you know, earlierCarly, we talked about meeting
needs and um being able toidentify needs.
(47:08):
So how can the audience, peoplelistening, how can they build
this community that is able tomeet their needs?
You know, you talked about itidentifying or speaking those
needs, but how do we build that?
Because I think most peopledon't know how to.
SPEAKER_01 (47:22):
Yeah.
That question is such it's likea podcast episode all in itself,
isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
Um could probably be one.
SPEAKER_01 (47:30):
I know, truly.
Um I if there's one thing I feellike so many, so many of us lack
is just like access to socialconnection.
And so I think that's what we'rereferring to here too, is like
this idea of building communityoutside of myself.
And I would say that um it's sodifficult when we're looking at
our stories and our adaptions,right?
(47:52):
And I talked about this a littlebriefly earlier, but this this
question came out of if I couldactually build the community I
need, what would that be like?
And so it's this this invitationto uh I would say
self-leadership to say if I havea need, um, the need is um lack
of connection socially, right?
(48:14):
Um, then I would say that one ofthe the biggest challenges or
the biggest work that I do withclients is recognizing that in
in some aspect they have powerand control to make that meet
that need um through connectionwith other people.
And so I like to say to myclients, we like voice, choice,
(48:35):
and autonomy, right?
Those when we can build thosethree things, it actually gives
us this agency that's like, oh,I I need community, I need
connection.
And oftentimes, right, we canmaybe lean one way or the other
of like, oh, I'm just no onereaches out, no one asks, no
one's there for me, right?
Or I don't need anybody, I'mgood, right?
(48:55):
Either one of those adaptionskind of is missing out, really,
right?
If we were made for connectionwith God and others, then there
is an invitation here to be withone another.
And so, like, how do we do that?
And I've seen a lot of clientswhen they take ownership of
that, like I am called to be incommunity and building safety
first internally.
(49:16):
I believe that that's primary.
Um, the more that we can buildthat safety internally, the more
that we can have capacity forothers' inability, is what I
say, right?
Like being in community ismessy, right?
Think of any like deeprelationship we have, it's like,
whew, it's hard.
Um, and so I think that thatbecomes like the challenge is
like to enter in relationship,to enter into connection is that
(49:38):
mirror.
And to be able to do that takesa lot of grace.
And so with ownership of our ownexperiences comes
self-compassion, and thatself-compassion, I think, allows
people to then have compassionfor others in their own,
wherever they are, right?
Um, and so what I've seen withmy clients uh that I just think
(50:01):
is beautiful is when they'vebeen able to own that, and uh,
you know, a client was able tosay, I want to build my own
community.
And I was like, Yeah, like dothat.
Um, build the community I need.
This is where I've seen clientsmeet this need by engaging in
just creative problem solving.
Like, okay, I have this need forconnection.
How can I do that?
You know, I've seen some clientscreate book clubs or walking
(50:23):
groups or connect with, youknow, community events in their
neighborhood, starting them.
Like we are people ofcreativity.
And so there's, you know, Ithere's this beautiful
invitation to to create um andto to to add like to put out in
the world and say, hey, likethis is what this is what I want
(50:44):
to do and see who comes.
And then oftentimes those areour people in a lot of ways.
So those are just a few waysthat I think what I've seen,
what I've noticed when peoplestart taking that agency and
saying, I I need community.
And what are some ways I can dothat?
That inner work is thatfoundation, and then that
obviously can lead to takingsome risks and getting out
(51:07):
there.
SPEAKER_00 (51:08):
I'm glad you mentioned that that part too,
the idea of taking risks, right?
Um, because to build community,it is risky, especially if
you've been hurt before.
It's scary to think to putyourself out there again and
feel the rejection orunwantedness and so on.
But would it be fair to say thatthat's part of the process?
SPEAKER_01 (51:28):
I think so, right?
We say like safe enough, right?
unknown (51:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (51:32):
That's good.
That's good.
SPEAKER_01 (51:34):
Safe enough.
It doesn't have to be, it's notgoing to be all the way safe,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (51:39):
But that's so true.
Yeah.
That's good.
Well, this has been a greatconversation, Carly.
Thank you so much again just forum having this conversation with
me about um why connection is soimportant.
Um, but before we close, isthere any are there any final
thoughts?
Anything that I missed, anythingthat you feel like it would be
good for the audience to know umabout our topic that we
(52:00):
discussed today?
SPEAKER_01 (52:01):
I think the only thing I would add to all of this
is just being gentle with whereyou are at in this process, you
know.
Um everybody's in a differentplace.
And so be where we are, and andthat is a really beautiful place
to connect, right?
That's a good first startingplace.
It's like, where do I begin?
Begin where you are.
Start connecting with whereveryou're at um and allow that to
(52:24):
lead you.
SPEAKER_00 (52:26):
That's great.
I love that.
Well, thank you again, Carly.
I really appreciated your timeand this conversation.
And yeah, for those of you whotuned in, I hope this was a
blessing to you.
And tune in next week for the100th episode, which I will
prepare something special forthat.
So I'm looking forward to it.
I'll see you guys then.
Alright everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I am excited to announce thatthis is episode 99.
It's been a long road, so afterthis episode, obviously, you're
gonna hear episode 100.
And I do have something specialplanned out for that, so I hope
you're here for that.
Um, but for today, I would liketo welcome Carly Marculier.
(00:28):
Did I say that right?
She did.
Awesome.
Okay, and the first try, too.
I was like, I think I like this.
Now she'll correct me.
And Carly is an attachmentfocused therapist, and I'll let
her introduce herself in alittle bit.
But the topic we're going to becovering today is why genuine
connection is essential forChristian growth.
(00:49):
Um, so both of us kind of havingthis attachment uh-based focus
and therapy and also having aChristian background, we're
really looking to dissect thistopic and looking forward to
hearing from Carly.
And this outline, this podcast,kind of stemmed from one of her
posts.
So um excited to have thisconversation with you, Carly.
(01:11):
Um, yeah, if you just want totake some time and introduce
yourself to the audience, andthen we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_01 (01:17):
Sure.
Thank you so much for having me.
Um, I like to tell people thatI'm a northerner by heart,
southerner by choice.
Um, I moved to the Blue RidgeMountains of Virginia in 2010.
Um, I came hoping to dofull-time ministry.
Uh, and the Lord just has uhreally funny plans how he
directs our path.
(01:38):
And so through through ministry,I was really exposed to an
incongruence betweendiscipleship and mental health
themes that I was seeing in mystudents, um, and just became
really passionate aboutconnecting the two and
understanding our stories inlight of the gospel, but also
recognizing how our storiesshape our view of the gospel.
(02:00):
And so that connection for mewas really um really led me into
full-time work in the mentalhealth field after college,
which then led me to get mymaster's degree in clinical
mental health counseling fromRegent University.
Oh nice back in 2018.
And so from then on, it's beenthis beautiful journey of
connecting the two.
Um and now I have a smallprivate practice here in
(02:22):
Lynchburg.
I am an IFS informed therapist,getting trained in level one
this coming uh January.
So I'm super excited about that.
And I focus on attachment.
I've done some ABFT, which isfamily uh-based attachment work,
uh some spiritual formationintegration and relational
trauma work.
I really am interested in theintersection between trauma as
(02:44):
it relates to spiritual abuserecovery as well.
So those are kind of the spacesI dabble in.
And attachment is what I'mdeeply passionate about,
attachment science, how it helpsus understand um our each unique
framework that we have and howit helps us even inform the way
we experience our faith journeyas well.
So I'm so glad to be here andget to talk about this.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
Thank you for sharing that.
You know, it's so funny as youmentioned attachment, because
when I started the podcast, Iwas trying to figure out well,
what would be a good, good namefor it?
It was super basic.
It was like, I think the firsttitle for it was like Created to
Connect.
The second one was The Genesisof Shame, because that's where
kind of the attachment wasdisrupted, right?
(03:27):
And then I was like, you knowwhat?
I think I'm gonna focus just onthis specific topic of God
attachment, and then just addedthe healing.
So that's what it's been for thelast uh couple of seasons.
So uh yeah, here we are talkingabout attachment and how it is
an important piece torelationships and everything
that you just mentioned, justyour background, your
experience.
Um, I'm looking forward to howthis conversation is gonna
(03:49):
develop.
So yeah, well, let's go aheadand get started, Carly, with
this uh first question.
Um, as I mentioned, one of theum questions, or a lot of all
these questions actually stemfrom a post that you wrote on
your page.
So um it was why is seekingconnection more important than
(04:10):
seeking change?
And it just got me thinking, Iwas like, that's a very good
question, right?
Because most people who come totherapy, they want to see
change.
And in the pursuit of change,often, I think this is what
happens sometimes, they mightmiss the connection.
But am I kind of hearing thatright?
I mean, obviously, I'm gonna letyou elaborate on on the on that
(04:31):
point, but that's kind of whereI went with that question, I
guess.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Yeah, no, that's great.
Yeah, this post kind of came outof a collection of quotes from
clients, actually.
So I'll give it the props.
Um, I just learned so much insitting in this chair.
And so for me, one of thequestions that I guess I took
quotes from clients and I turnedthem into questions.
Yeah, because there was this umwe say in IFS therapy all the
(04:59):
time, the agenda is connection.
Because, right, like you'resaying, oftentimes when you're
coming into therapy, for manyclients entering the therapy
space, it can be really easy towant to just change something.
Most people come to therapybecause they want something to
be different in their life,whether it be internally or
externally in their life.
And so, but the reality of mymaybe a holistic or
(05:20):
attachment-based uhtrauma-informed perspective
would say that that symptomsaren't just things to be fixed,
right?
And and maybe the DSM wouldcould would suggest otherwise if
we're gonna pathologize.
But in this particular realm,when we're looking at it from a
trauma-informed lens, we'reseeing symptoms not just as you
(05:40):
know, distressing, because theysome of them can be very much
so, but they also are uh datathat is trying to communicate
something and in parts, uh IFSuses the language of parts, but
you could say emotions, uhstates, whatever we want to call
it, this idea that um it's oursystems way, our body's way of
(06:01):
trying to get our attention,trying to reconnect what maybe
has been disconnected.
Um this is so beautiful becauseit rather than you know focusing
more on like behavior change,right?
We're actually leaning intoconnection.
And I see this in so manydifferent realms.
We're looking at ittheologically or
attachment-based.
(06:21):
Um, from the internal familysystems model, connection is the
pathway to healing.
And we'd look at so manydifferent modalities that have
different perspectives on this,like behavioral or solution
focus, which can maybe fixbehaviors from a surface level
perspective.
Um, but this type of work,connection work, I would say,
right, integration work, reallyfocuses on allowing ourselves to
(06:47):
feel safe, seen, soothed, right,and brought to security, which
is that that attachmentframework that maybe we missed
growing up.
Um I would say that all of thatthen leads to change, positive
change or transformation,healing, want to call it.
Um, but it's a different way ofdoing it.
And I like to kind of pose it inthe relationship to what does it
(07:11):
feel like, right?
If I say the agenda is fix it,change it, right?
What does that feel like in yourbody?
And I oftentimes ask and clientsthat when they're like, I just
want this to change.
I'm like, what's that like tofeel like you got to fix it?
And if I offer this invitationof what if we could just connect
with that feeling, what doesthat feel like?
Um, oftentimes it's a likeimmediate, like the physical
(07:31):
shift in the body, just is like,oh, that feels so much lighter.
SPEAKER_02 (07:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
And I wonder if maybe that is evidence that
connection is like a beautifulfirst step.
SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it it's it's so goodto hear you say that because I
think one of the barriers, Iguess, that a lot of clients
face is that if I'm not seeingchange right away, then either
I'm doing something wrong or mycounselor is doing something
wrong, right?
Because they want to see change.
And I get it, right?
I think if I was in their shoes,I'd say the reason why I'm here,
(08:03):
why I'm paying you is so I cansee change.
And the work that we do,especially when we're working
with trauma or or justcounseling in general, is that
it takes time.
I mean, we're helping overcome,you know, years of patterns, of
relating and so on.
And um, you know, I kind of umunderstand them when they want
(08:26):
that, and how hard it is for usprobably to just sit with that
too.
At least I've I felt it, wheregosh, I wish I could get you
there, but this is gonna taketime, you know.
Um, yeah, can you speak a littlebit more to that?
Like the desire for people tocome to counseling and wanting
change, and maybe at some pointthe realization is, you know
(08:47):
what, maybe it's thistherapeutic alliance that we've
established that's helping mesee life differently.
Um, yeah, what else would youadd to that, that the connection
piece that people are missing?
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Yeah, something that I like to tell clients when they
first come to see me is becauseoftentimes people have, like
you're saying, they have amisconception of what therapy is
in general.
Um, like I'm gonna come and I'mgonna ask you questions, you're
gonna tell me what to do or tellme how to fix it, right?
And I'm like, oh, that's notwhat I do.
Maybe you don't want to see me.
Um, but one of the things that Ilike to let clients know is, you
(09:24):
know, even more so than even mytherapeutic relationship, which
is I think the most importantpiece because I get to be the
empathic witness that allowsthem to then build that within
themselves.
I like to let them know that mygoal is for them to be able to
connect with themselvesdifferently.
And so this is from like aninternal perspective.
So we have these differentlayers of like the way that I
(09:46):
connect with myself, the waythat I connect with God, that
all is going to change the way Iconnect externally.
Because we're normally coming infor an external problem most of
the time, right?
We say all problems arerelational problems.
Um, and so in that sense, itallows clients to maybe get a
little bit larger of a scope tosee, like, oh, like I've been so
(10:06):
focused on maybe the externaldynamic of my life.
And I haven't given anyattention to connecting with
like what I feel or think orwant or need.
And so um bringing them to thisconcept of what does it mean to
connect with myself?
What does it mean to connectwith God?
And for some people, that wasn'tallowed or that was seen as bad
(10:27):
or sinful, right?
So we have to, there's a lot ofwork to be done, even just
around the concept ofconnection.
Uh, but it that's a beautifulstarting place.
And it is a slow place.
So oftentimes I talk a lot withclients about pacing.
Uh and I ask the question, youknow, what what would happen if
we didn't get there right now?
You know, because there'snormally a valid fear or concern
(10:49):
around what the urgency is.
Um and I don't know if it's aquote, but I heard it recently
and I loved it.
Is this idea like that if we'repatient with something, it means
we care about it.
And so that's kind of thelanguage of this.
It's softer, it's gentle becauseit matters.
It matters to go slow,especially if from an attachment
(11:09):
perspective, you know, oursystem has been forced to adapt
in order to maintain connectionor safety.
There is an urgency because it'sstill in that survival mode.
And so being able to slowclients down to say this can
take as much time as you need.
Uh, and are you willing to letit take as much time as it
needs?
Um, is it's a very differentapproach.
(11:30):
And you know, maybe not foreverybody, but I think it is a
beautiful invitation.
It can really soften, um, andI've seen it soften uh clients
immediately, even just thatinvitation of, hey, we don't
have to rush this.
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
That's true.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
And I think there tends to be sometimes, and maybe
I'm rambling, but this idea ofthe therapist even wants me to
get better quick.
And I I I remind clients likethere is no agenda over here.
The agenda for me is to connectwith you, to connect with
yourself.
And even that pacing and umexpectation can be helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
Yeah.
No, that was great.
That was great.
You know, I don't know, did youexperience this too, Carly?
Where at the beginning, when Ifirst started, because I was, if
I were to go to counseling as aclient, I think that would have
been my approach.
So when I became a counselor, itwas like my thought was I'm
doing something wrong becauseI'm not helping them get to
(12:25):
where they need to get, right?
Where they want to go.
So that was my struggle earlyon.
And I realized with time,especially when doing trauma
work, that it has to take time.
It has to take time.
And to your point, there's thispatience about it, and it's
inviting and it's warm and it'scaring for the process to get
(12:46):
there, you know.
Um, I don't know if youexperienced that, but that was
so hard for me initially, andthen afterwards, now it's just I
can sit there with them, makethat invitation, and walk with
them, right?
Um, one of the trauma experts inthe field is uh Dr.
Guy Bermante, and he talks aboutthis idea of compassion.
(13:07):
He speaks of it in the I want tosay it's Latin, and compassion
means to suffer with.
And that has changed my wholeapproach to sitting with clients
as they walk through, you know,their trauma or whatever the
case is.
But yeah, that was a tough onefor me through uh when I first
started.
SPEAKER_01 (13:23):
Yeah, oh, I totally agree.
Uh and the pressure that put onme, right, as the therapist, um,
to have all the answers.
And to, you know, the way Ipractice now is oftentimes
really letting the client know,like, I believe you have the
answers.
And I I get the honor of likehelping you find them.
(13:45):
And that one takes the pressureoff of my system and also opens
them up to like, oh, like I do,like I can start being curious
about that.
Because but it is it for foranybody listening that's like in
their practicum internship, youknow, it's supervision hours,
like it takes time to like likeslow down and and create that
pace too.
(14:05):
So we can be gentle withourselves just as much as we
learn to be gentle with ourclients.
SPEAKER_00 (14:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um there was this other partthat you mentioned in there, I
guess also from from yourclients, that you said when it
comes to healing, what do youmean by we should be inspired as
opposed to pressured?
So we need to be inspired asopposed to pressured.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
So there, yeah, this is um kind of the idea that
there's a misconception aroundlike really what healing is.
So maybe we can start there.
Um the that healing is somehowlike the destination, like I'm
gonna do therapy and then I'mhealed and then I'm done, right?
And um kind of dancing aroundthis idea that what if it's not
(14:51):
necessarily about a destinationor a like a checkbox, um, or
even like like oh, a reductionof symptoms, because I think so
oftentimes we'll see that aswell.
I just want to stop feelingblank.
And yet if healing is less aboutlike the removal of something
and more about the expansion ofour system into experiencing
(15:13):
goodness, passion, safety,delight, etc.
Right.
Um, and so in that way, if we'review, if we're viewing healing
through that lens of like oursystem's ability to experience
goodness, and goodness can bemany things, then it takes the
pressure off, right?
Because I think there is, again,going back to this idea of like
(15:35):
change and pressure, I think Ithink the two coexist, right?
And that uh if I really wantsomething to change, I'm gonna
be kind of like, I think it'sAndy Kobler that says like white
knuckling it, right?
Like white knuckle thetherapeutic process.
And I love that concept of themore we do that, the actually
the more it actually actuallydecreases or creates barriers to
our work, uh, because thepressure doesn't allow us to
(15:58):
expand, right?
I think it's Peter Levine thathas that really cool.
I don't know if you've seenthese, uh, the little balls that
kind of expand open really largeand then they get really small
and concave on themselves.
Peter Levine has this reallybeautiful analogy of this um the
somatic experience where thenervous system expands to
connection and it it closes, itcontracts to safety.
(16:22):
And so when I when we weretalking about this in session,
the client was like, I want tobe inspired, not pressured.
It was this beautiful languagearound what if what if expansion
is is actually what heals usmore than like the pressure, the
the pressure to perform or thepressure to get better, whatever
the pressure was for thatparticular person.
(16:45):
And so one of the things that Iteach my clients a lot is
connection and safety, they'reboth important.
Um, and so when we focus onexpansion in the system, we have
to do that gently.
And if we do that too fast, wetry to go too quick, if we try
to pressure our system intobeing safe or being whatever
(17:06):
we're the agenda is potentiallyinternally, we can actually do
more damage.
And so inspiration is oftentimesmore of a gentle invitation to
pay attention to delight.
And pay attention, we call itbeauty hunting, right?
In in the therapeutic space ofit can be small moments,
(17:27):
glimmers.
There's lots of different wordsfor this, right?
It can be as like sometimes it'slike the way the sun comes
through the window or uh thecoffee that I drink in the
morning, right?
Whatever it is that just islike, oh this is good.
I love this, right?
These are glimmers and and andhow inspiration actually, right?
(17:47):
The these connections to what isgood is what is increasing our
capacity for healing.
Uh that's kind of where we'rewhat what we were talking about
in that particular question wasjust what if, like what would
that feel like to be inspiredrather than pressured into this
process of becoming whole?
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
Yeah, no, that's great.
That's great.
It's it is amazing how much welearn from our clients as they
give us those little nuggets ofinsight, right?
Um, and it kind of leads to thisidea.
I mean, everything that we'retalking about, I think is
leading to the importance ofconnection and building a
community that we need.
Um, but I think one of thethings that stands out to me as
(18:29):
I think about clients and thinkabout the work that we do is the
difficulty that some people haveexpressing needs, right?
Like I need this.
It sounds, it sounds likeweakness in a sense, or at least
I think that's how some peopleperceive it.
I know how I perceived it when Ifirst started.
It was like, gosh, to say that Ineed something, why?
(18:50):
I'm the oldest of four, you'rethere for younger brothers and
sisters, you kind of put thosethings to the side because you
need to sacrifice yourself forothers, right?
And a lot of people kind of havethis, especially if they
experience trauma, where they'reput in this position where they
have to do the things just tosurvive.
And that's all they've everknown.
So when we see our clients thatcome into the office, why else
(19:12):
do you think it's difficult forpeople to express those needs
out outside of maybe maybe it'sthat they feel that it feels
weak, or maybe it's that theydon't want to ask for help or
want to be a bother, which isanother common um statement that
people make, right?
But yeah, what what have youseen with regarding that?
Why is it hard for people toexpress their needs to even the
(19:34):
people that love them?
SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
Yeah, it's it's such a complex context for this
because I think it'smultifactorial, right?
Whether it be I think it'sprimary, you know, I would go
back to attachment experiencesbecause if we are wired for
connection and that's the basisof our context here, that we
automatically talk about things,like we move towards each other.
(19:59):
That's that's the design.
Then what makes us not?
Right?
That's always my question.
And from um, I think it's likean ABFT perspective, like an
attachment-based perspective.
The question that we askadolescents in this work with
families is um, did you did youor do you feel safe to move
towards your primary caregiveror your parent when you have a
(20:20):
problem?
And oftentimes problems areindicative of needs.
So we could we could fill it inthere if you had a need, if you
have a problem, why or why not?
And the the answer to that isoftentimes really telling,
right?
And so I like to encouragepeople to ask the question, you
know, if it's if it's hard forthem to uh express their needs,
maybe they don't even know whattheir needs are because they've
(20:41):
been so exiled from theirsystem.
Um we're told they shouldn'thave needs, or you know, needs
are selfish if we're gonna usethe Christian context for that,
um, placing other people's needsabove our own, right?
We have all of these burdens umthat can kind of uh eliminate
the beauty and the thereceptivity of what needs I
(21:03):
think can be, right, inrelationship with one another.
Um, and so I like to encouragepeople to ask, like, how are my
needs responded to as a child?
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
Because that can tell us a lot about why it might
be difficult to express ourneeds now.
And that's what I tend to seethe most.
It's like it just wasn't safe.
Or it was dismissed or shamed,right?
There's so many differentresponses that people get to
their needs, and so those thoseexternal responses get
internalized, and then from thatinternalization, we are almost
(21:36):
like telling ourselves we'rebelieving those things, right?
And then um kind of disembodyingin a lot of ways from what what
our system is trying to tell usthat we need.
And I like to use the phraselike our needs, like our
emotions oftentimes tell us whatwe need.
And so there's anotherconnection to maybe a holistic
(21:57):
experience of if you don't knowwhat your needs are, right?
If it's hard to express thembecause we don't even know what
they are, then maybe listen tothe emotion that we're having,
because that sometimes can umget us to, oh, I think I know
what I need.
Like anger is a good example ofthat.
Most people will be like, oh,anger's, you know, anger's bad.
And like, well, rage is bad, badif we want to use a label for
(22:18):
it.
But anger tells me what I don'twant.
Anger tells me what I don'tlike, anger tells me what I
need, which is oftentimes aboundary if I'm getting angry,
right?
So um those are just a fewthoughts that I have when it
comes to like expressing needs.
There's such a um context fordeveloping and and developing
(22:38):
safety really so that needs canbe expressed.
And I would say, and maybe we'llget into this a little bit when
we're talking about community,but um, one of the pieces that I
think is really challenging whenwe're looking at attachment
adaptations, whether you aren'tnaming yourself as like more
anxiously attached, or um, Iwould say we're we have all of
them for sense of attached.
(22:59):
Yeah, yeah, for differentrelationships, right?
Um, but wherever we findourselves on that grid of
attachment, we can really noticethat naming our needs or knowing
that I can meet my needs is onehalf of the equation, and
knowing that people want to meetmy needs is the other half.
SPEAKER_02 (23:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
And so some people are like, I can meet my needs,
like I'm more of avoidantattached individual.
So I'm like, I got it, I'mindependent, I can do it, right?
But then we have someone else,it's like, I can't, I need
someone.
And so we have these imbalancesthat make it really difficult
within relationship with oneanother.
And so when it comes to likeexpressing needs, that building
(23:38):
of safety that I mentioned aminute ago, I'm curious about
what does it look like to buildthat internally first with
myself and with God, so thatwhen I'm going externally into
relationships and buildingcommunity and connection with
others, that that sense ofknowing that God is there for me
and knowing that I am there forme, I can build that agency and
(23:59):
um we call it self-leadership inthe IFS, but uh just the beauty
of those different levels ofconnection that we can make with
ourselves and then how we canhonor our needs.
I think it's Pete Skazeiro thatsays, you know, your needs in
the family of God, your needsare a delight.
And I don't know if many of usbelieve that because we've been
told a different message fromsociety, from our families.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
But it needs oh, sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
No, no, no, and you're right, and that's a good
point too, because we aretalking to a Christian audience,
and I mean you you you said itperfectly where I think most
Christians believe or wemisinterpret or misapply that
passage of sacrificing yourselffor the for others and take it
to an extreme, right?
(24:45):
Now I I've had a hard timewrestling with that because I
think today the emphasis hasbeen so much on me, right, and
not others, but we'recommunity-oriented people,
right?
So it if you isolate too much orfocus so much on your needs that
(25:05):
you don't use that time away toreinvest back into the
community, then there'ssomething missing, right?
And then there's the other partwhere if you're so invested in
the community but have no timeto yourself, then you don't have
anything else to give, right?
So I often find that with a lotof Christians where I was on
that side where I was burnedout, but in my head, sacrificing
(25:27):
yourself was honorable, noble,the Christian right thing to do.
And I still believe that, but Ihave more balance now.
So can you speak a little bit tothat?
Just just the struggle ofconnecting.
How can I be serving others,meeting other people's needs
while also investing in my ownpersonal walk with Christ so
(25:48):
that I can, you know, come backand serve or invest in the
community in a sense.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
It's such an important conversation.
And the the thing that I thinkabout when you said that was
this idea of balance.
And so right, I hear thepolarization of that is like
either I can have needs or Ican't have needs, right?
It's like one or the other.
And what I've learned and what Itend to try to embody and like
teach is this idea of like, it'snot about what, it's about when,
(26:18):
right?
Like, when is it appropriate totake time for self, right?
Or to to meet my needs uh or tomeet others' needs.
And so it's it's more nuanced,it's not as simple as black or
white, it's not as simple as yesor no.
Um, and so I think that's wherediscernment, and we could you
know talk about this from areally theological perspective,
(26:39):
but what I love about um, Ithink it's within the IFS
framework, it talks about tone,timing, and texture.
And that really helps my systemwith asking the questions of
like when, right?
So it and this helps me findbalance.
So if the tone, timing, andtexture of whatever the ask is
(26:59):
or whatever the need is, right?
Um, that's sometimes it'sslowing down enough to kind of
listen and pay attention tolike, what's the like does this
feel really urgent?
Like, do I need to do it rightnow?
Um, like let's use this in thein the context of like meeting
someone else's needs.
Um, because I think that's wherea lot of Christians get hung up,
right?
It's like I have to meeteverybody's needs because that's
(27:21):
what God's called me to.
And I would say that is aninvitation, but is it always?
Like, did Jesus always go to thepeople, or was there times where
he moved away in solitude?
Like he did this beautifully,where it was like it was time
and it was also time to um restand and be with God.
And so being able to kind ofhold that space of what's the
(27:43):
timing on this?
Does it feel really urgent, ordo I feel like there's enough
space to make this decision,check in?
Um, the texture of it is like,is it really like critical?
Like if you don't, dot, dot,dot, right?
If it it is, is it more of aninvitation of like God's like
opening this opportunity?
Um, and then the the way it'ssaid too, like not just like the
(28:04):
tonation of it, but the textureof the language that we're
saying to ourselves or thatsomeone's saying to us, right?
So those those three T's reallyhelp me and um really allow me
to kind of get curious about thewhen of my needs or the when of
other people's needs, ratherthan automatically, you know.
I I probably lean more as as youdo to this, like, I'll help
(28:26):
others.
Yes, I want to say yes, I wantto help.
Um, and yet that burned me outfast.
And so honoring our edges isalso holy work too.
And that's hard to acknowledgeour limitations and our need for
rest and God too.
So it's it's more of a balance,which is so much more complex
and and allows us into the ideaof inviting God into that space
(28:49):
to ask.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I really like what yousaid there about uh the when,
right?
It's it's um to your point, thethe duality of it's either this
or that, right?
The black and whites, this orthat.
And I remember one of myprofessors said, and maybe this
is what you were kind ofalluding to, is that what if
it's just both?
But to address both, it's okay,when?
(29:10):
When do I address this part?
When do I address that part,right?
And that's that that's such ahard concept, I think, sometimes
for Christians because theythink there's only one right way
to do it.
And one of my professors, he heshared this.
Um, he said, you know, sometimesin life you're making decisions
that's not necessarily right orwrong, but the question that you
(29:31):
want to ask yourself, is itwise?
Is it wise for me to take, makethis decision and so on?
And it kind of removes that thatpiece of I'm gonna make a
mistake, as opposed to I'm gonnatrust God in this process, and
based on what I know about hisword, about his character, I'm
gonna go this way.
And if the door is shut, thenit's shut.
But it seems like the wise thingto do right now, right?
(29:53):
And um, so I think that'susually what I help clients with
too is that when they'restruggling with something, they
want to make it black.
Or white, and they say, Well, ifI don't do this, then it's gonna
go all wrong, right?
Yeah, maybe it's okay to haveboth.
There's fear about entering thatrelationship, but also it sounds
like they're a great person,right?
So it's one of those those typesof things where you try to help
(30:14):
them hold both things at thesame time.
But I really like I really likethat concept you mentioned of
when?
When do I need to tend toothers?
When can I attend to myself?
SPEAKER_01 (30:24):
Yeah, both are important.
SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:27):
That that middle space is that's where the
tension is, right?
It's way harder to be there.
Yeah, to hold that discomfort,but it it gets easier.
We create space in that.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
Now, um, Carly, do you notice a difference between
how men and women respond tothese different needs?
Um, I'm looking at two separatelayers.
One is gender, and the other isculture.
So I'm Latino background, andthis aspect, again, this is one
of the things that I had towrestle with as I, you know, had
(30:59):
my own um journey to becoming acounselor is okay, it is highly
honored in Latino culture to beself-sacrificial.
You have your role, you haveyour role, and you give it all,
right?
And you work hard and all thesedifferent things.
That, and then you're also aman, so you have different
expectations as a man.
So this whole idea, I don't, Idon't think I should, I haven't
(31:20):
shared this with you, but goinginto the field of counseling as
a Latino male received a lot ofpushback.
So, so it was one of thosethings where I was like, okay, I
felt shame, I felt guilt, I feltall these different things.
So I think when we talk aboutneeds, there's a space that
seems to be a little bit moreopen for women to share.
(31:40):
What are your needs?
Not so much for men, but alsomaybe men's needs are a little
bit different.
And Dr.
Honeycutt and I have talkedabout this a lot.
It's like, you know, maybe we'readdressing men's issues in a way
that's not um not that it's nothelpful, but in a way it doesn't
invite them or make them feellike I'm actually listening to
(32:01):
what they're actually needing,if that makes sense.
But have you seen anydifference?
I I don't know if you work justwith pure females or or or mix.
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
Well, I I've I've seen a few males and I see
families sometimes, so I'veworked with some ads.
Um, but I I would say that likejust social, like the
socialization of men, I justhave so much empathy.
Like um, it's justheartbreaking.
And I don't know if you've readthe book, um, You're the One
You've Been Waiting For byRichard Schwartz, but he has a
(32:32):
whole chapter on thesocialization of gender, and
it's fantastic because it reallydoes um showcase like how men
and women, although I don't liketo like generalize on gender,
but I do believe gender andculture play massive roles
because it is multifactorial,but the the idea that men and
(32:54):
women are nurtured differently,like I don't know what the stats
are.
Um I don't want to make some up,but it was like something along
the age of like six or seven,boys are treated drastically
different than girls are.
SPEAKER_03 (33:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
And and the messages around masculinity, right?
And and uh different uh menhaving different different needs
than women.
And it's like all of us havebasic, basically the same needs,
and maybe we express itdifferently, but like needs for
support and love and kindnessand just like those basic ones,
I think get kind of stomped outin some ways culturally, um,
(33:28):
just for for men and versuswomen.
And I think there's somemessages for women too that are
just as toxic and painful.
Um, and so I do see both playinga significant role and how we
perceive them.
And I like to use like thecollection of how past
experiences, our perceptions ofthose past experiences and our
(33:51):
personality all right, all kindof connect to how we maybe
perceive our needs, express ourneeds.
And I think gender and cultureplay a huge aspect in like that
past experience and ourperception, you know,
information of personality.
But it is a really interestingthing to know because I think
(34:12):
men and women maybe havedifferent um challenges, even
though they it's similar in thesense of like maybe we have a
difficult time expressing ourneeds, but maybe for different
reasons.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
Sure.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's superhelpful.
And maybe that's what kind ofleads to this aspect of um even
how we see goals for counseling.
Um in counseling, it seems thatmaybe for some people it's
helpful to gain some clarity,right?
So what when we make the goalclarity, what is what does that
(34:45):
do for clients?
How does that help clients liketo see um I guess this have a
different perspective than whatthey've had?
But yeah, can you elaborate juston uh what was meant by the goal
being clarity?
SPEAKER_01 (34:58):
Yeah.
So this is specific, I rememberthe session um where there was
just like a lot of uncertainty.
And I like that picture of like,have you ever seen that meme?
It's like the yarn ball, andit's like all modeled, and then
the therapist is like it'strying to pull out the yarn and
like organize it.
(35:19):
And oftentimes I think that isthat is where a lot of clients
start from.
There's a lot of uncertainty atthe onset of therapy, and
oftentimes, right, that's wherediscomfort, uncertainty, not
having answers, that's where alot of people have a hard time
just sitting in that.
And so there's a differencebetween getting our questions
(35:39):
answered and clarity, right?
And so, and I think that's kindof the invitation that was made
in that session was just like,what if what if the goal, what
if the goal in therapy couldjust be clarity instead of like
this firm, fixed destination?
Because clarity is an ongoingprocess of understanding to
clear space to understand whythis is in one hand and this is
(36:03):
in the other.
And and through clarity, sure,we maybe get an outcome, but
that's not necessarily the goalof it, right?
Because again, going back topressure and change, if we're
really agenda setting, it cankind of um untie the process a
little bit more.
And so not necessarily seeking aspecific answer to something,
(36:25):
but more on the ways of likeconnecting dots.
Um, we like to call ittrailheads in IFS therapy,
right?
This idea of like following thetrailhead until we understand.
And that leads to a deeper,deeper understanding of myself,
God, and others.
And even just that alone is likeworth going to therapy.
I think a lot of times peoplethink they should go to therapy
(36:46):
if they have like a major thinghappening, but I think anybody
can gain clarity, just learningabout giving themselves time to
know themselves.
And so that's what that's what Iwas kind of hinting at is like,
what if clarity could be a goal?
And that feels soft and gentle.
SPEAKER_00 (37:02):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's it's funny thatyou mentioned as you started to
elaborate on it, thisillustration from again.
I'll do a shout-out, Dr.
Corsini.
He's always embedded a lot oftime with me.
But he uh he kind of gave thisillustration of as counselors,
when we have clients who come tous, they're looking for like
four things, right?
(37:22):
And one of them is kind oftaking the role of the
optometrist.
And we're trying on thesedifferent glasses to see what
helps you see things a littlebit clearer, right?
It's for you like gainingclarity.
Well, maybe one side's a littlebit off, but you know, we'll
correct that and so on.
So they come in and they seeclarity and say, Whoa, wow,
that's their aha moment, right?
Um, and then there's another onewho may look for a survival
(37:43):
guide, someone who's beenthrough the trenches, who's been
through the same road thatthey're going through, and they
just are able to empathize andunderstand exactly what it is
that they're that they're goingthrough.
Um, others want maybe a coach,someone who's just encouraging
them, right?
They don't have anyone on thereum supporting them, they don't
have a social support system.
So the counselor kind of playsthis role of coaching them
(38:05):
through this process, like beingan encourager, supporting them,
and so on.
And then there's the last onethat we've kind of addressed,
but is not really our role, isthat of a mechanic where people
come in and they just want tofix the problem, right?
Tell me what the problem is,I'll go in and I'll fix it.
And actually, some clients areable to do that.
Like if you just highlight oneissue for them, it's like, oh,
(38:27):
that's the problem.
I can go and fix it.
But again, I share all this inclarifying that really what
we're looking for, though, isthe connection that is based off
of these things, right?
Because those things, when weprovide those insights for
clients, it does create a deeperconnection because you just help
clarify or you help me identifyor you help me with something,
(38:49):
and that makes me trust you.
Now, a big part of that is alsohow we're relating, right?
Empathy and connecting and soon.
But I really just like thepicture that we're painting of
what therapy can actually looklike because it doesn't just
look one way, you know.
Um, I was doing part of mydissertation was writing on uh
(39:09):
taking in the stories of theseLatina counselors.
And one of them, her big thingwas uh she said, you know what?
I'm not the typical counselor.
Like there's counselors who arejust soft and gentle and kind,
and I I'm just not like that.
So I struggled with thisidentity piece of, well, I'm not
like that.
Can I be a good counselor?
So for her, one of the thingsthat she kind of uh mentioned
(39:32):
was that she is able to help theclients kind of hold a mirror to
themselves and help them reflecton, oh, here's where there's
work that needs to be done,here's where work needs to be
done.
So those of you guys who arelistening, counseling looks very
different.
It depends on your counselor, itdepends on the process.
But one thing that is certain inall of the sessions, it is this
(39:54):
desire for connection, right?
And that we can develop thatinformed that.
Um, you know, obviously we havethis spiritual integration piece
with okay, what is what is God,um, what is God trying to do
through all of this?
Um, there was one other questionthat you had on there, and we'll
get to the community one aswell.
But one of the questions thatyou had was, what if the burden
(40:17):
we are meant to carry is light?
Right.
And I I I read it twice and Ididn't know if you meant what if
the burden we are meant to carryis light, or what if the burden
to carry is light?
I don't know if that makessense.
It makes sense in my head.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
I just don't know if I'm glad you picked up on that
because I I kind of meant inboth ways.
Um, but it it obviously comesfrom Matthew 11 and the idea of
you know when God invites us tobring our burdens to Him, right?
To come, all who are weary andheavy laden, I will give you
(40:52):
rest.
For my yoke is easy, my burdenis light.
And the more I meditate on that,the more I think about it, it
could, I I know it's meant to bethis like like physically light
load, but what if it's alsolight, right?
Like light to the world, uhwitness to the light, all of
those types of things.
But um, in this context, I thinktoo, when we're looking at just
(41:17):
the process of connecting withourselves, with others, with
God, sometimes that's it'sheavy, right?
Sometimes going back and doingthe work of therapy is is hard
and heavy work.
And so this invitation of um theburden that we're carrying.
I remember this interaction witha client and she made a comment
(41:37):
like, oh, well, I have to, Ihave to please everybody, or I
have to, there was some sort oflike burden around her Christian
upbringing.
And I remember saying, I wonderif if the burden isn't light, I
wonder if it's not from God.
Like just being curious aboutthat.
And so that's kind of where thisidea came from with what if when
when when Christ invites us intopartnership with him, because
(42:01):
that's connect ultimately that'swhat we're aiming for is this
connection, this union with God.
And and he's inviting us intonot just carrying the burden of
life of our stories on our own.
And there's some hope in that tosay, like, maybe maybe not not
just because it's heavy doesn'tmean I don't have to carry it,
(42:22):
but that I'm never called tocarry it alone.
And and and if we were to getinto like right the this yoke,
right?
And how the they would normallyput one ox that was um larger
and older with a younger ox,right?
And so the the beautifulinvitation of this is are are we
inviting God in?
Are we connecting?
(42:42):
Um, or have we even been toldthat God wants to connect with
us in our burden?
He wants to carry the load andallow us to learn from him.
Um, and so the question I alwayslike to offer clients is what
amount of my burden that I'mcarrying that, you know, there's
some burdens we unburden from,and there's others that we
aren't called to unburden from,whether that be just things
(43:03):
outside of our control.
And so with those burdens, wecan say, you know, how much of
this burden am I trying to carryalone in my own strength?
And what would it feel like toinvite the comfort of God or the
nearness of God into that withme?
SPEAKER_00 (43:17):
Yeah.
And what would that feel like,right?
Like what what would what do youthink the clients experience in
moving from the weight of lifeto now joining together with
Christ, inviting him into thatsituation and feeling it like?
Like what do they describe thatfeeling as?
SPEAKER_01 (43:38):
So I'm thinking of a few um instances.
So I do a lot of a manual prayerin session and God imagery work.
Um, and and what is always sopowerful about that is is when
clients are experiencing thisand it's more of their
experience than mine, right?
I get to witness it, but thereis this, maybe not even
(43:59):
somatically, but some clientshave described just like um
feeling empowered, right?
There's this empowerment.
Um the the biggest challengethat I think the core, and I
don't know, there's probablylots of research around this,
but this core feeling of beingalone, right?
That is the essence ofdisconnection, right?
And so if we're all marred withthat, that fear, right?
(44:23):
That innate fear ofdisconnection, then this beauty
of connection allows us to feellike I can do it.
And there's there's someincredible research on suffering
and how suffering alone is whatcauses trauma, right?
Like this the lack of anempathic witness, right?
Um, but when we are in it withsomeone, it it's we can endure,
(44:45):
right?
And there is a there's acoexistence, like we were
talking about earlier, whereit's not that it doesn't, it's
not that it's not painful, it'snot that it's not heavy, but
that I'm not, I'm with, I'mwitness in it, and someone is
sharing in that.
And so oftentimes I thinkthere's an experience of God's
compassion or God's grace orGod's just nearness, like
(45:06):
feeling like he gets it, right?
Like feeling that there's awitness to my um experience and
that he cares about thatexperience.
Uh and so those are just a fewthoughts, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, um, I often thinkabout how much Paul even
emphasized in his letters, likethe one another's, right?
See a lot in Corinthians and soon.
And yeah, this aspect of notjust, you know, inviting the
church or inviting people withinthe church community to join in
on that.
And I think one thing maybe thatwe had missed um years ago is
(45:42):
teaching people or or knowinghow to sit with the pain of
other people, right?
So something bad happens tosomeone, and we always want to
have the right words to say, youknow, um, or want to provide
comfort through words whensometimes it's just sitting with
people.
Um, I interviewed a friend lastyear, I think maybe two years
(46:04):
ago, and they had lost a baby.
They had lost two babiesactually.
And he said, I was surprised byhow many people um were trying
to be kind, but in trying to bekind with their words, they
actually hurt us a little bitmore.
And I said, So what so whathelped?
And he said, I think it was whenpeople just sat with us and they
(46:25):
just heard us out and didn'tfeel the need to say anything.
And you know, it's it reminds mejust of those moments of silence
when you know the Israelites orwhen um people in scripture were
going through their strugglesthat they felt like they didn't
hear God was silent, but hewasn't, he was waiting patiently
as they went through thatprocess, right?
(46:45):
And I think um I think that'ssomething that we can take from
this aspect of uh one another'suh of being there for one
another, is sometimes it's justsitting there in the suffering
with that person walking throughwith them.
You know, um you know, earlierCarly, we talked about meeting
needs and um being able toidentify needs.
(47:08):
So how can the audience, peoplelistening, how can they build
this community that is able tomeet their needs?
You know, you talked about itidentifying or speaking those
needs, but how do we build that?
Because I think most peopledon't know how to.
SPEAKER_01 (47:22):
Yeah.
That question is such it's likea podcast episode all in itself,
isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
Um could probably be one.
SPEAKER_01 (47:30):
I know, truly.
Um I if there's one thing I feellike so many, so many of us lack
is just like access to socialconnection.
And so I think that's what we'rereferring to here too, is like
this idea of building communityoutside of myself.
And I would say that um it's sodifficult when we're looking at
our stories and our adaptions,right?
(47:52):
And I talked about this a littlebriefly earlier, but this this
question came out of if I couldactually build the community I
need, what would that be like?
And so it's this this invitationto uh I would say
self-leadership to say if I havea need, um, the need is um lack
of connection socially, right?
(48:14):
Um, then I would say that one ofthe the biggest challenges or
the biggest work that I do withclients is recognizing that in
in some aspect they have powerand control to make that meet
that need um through connectionwith other people.
And so I like to say to myclients, we like voice, choice,
(48:35):
and autonomy, right?
Those when we can build thosethree things, it actually gives
us this agency that's like, oh,I I need community, I need
connection.
And oftentimes, right, we canmaybe lean one way or the other
of like, oh, I'm just no onereaches out, no one asks, no
one's there for me, right?
Or I don't need anybody, I'mgood, right?
(48:55):
Either one of those adaptionskind of is missing out, really,
right?
If we were made for connectionwith God and others, then there
is an invitation here to be withone another.
And so, like, how do we do that?
And I've seen a lot of clientswhen they take ownership of
that, like I am called to be incommunity and building safety
first internally.
(49:16):
I believe that that's primary.
Um, the more that we can buildthat safety internally, the more
that we can have capacity forothers' inability, is what I
say, right?
Like being in community ismessy, right?
Think of any like deeprelationship we have, it's like,
whew, it's hard.
Um, and so I think that thatbecomes like the challenge is
like to enter in relationship,to enter into connection is that
(49:38):
mirror.
And to be able to do that takesa lot of grace.
And so with ownership of our ownexperiences comes
self-compassion, and thatself-compassion, I think, allows
people to then have compassionfor others in their own,
wherever they are, right?
Um, and so what I've seen withmy clients uh that I just think
(50:01):
is beautiful is when they'vebeen able to own that, and uh,
you know, a client was able tosay, I want to build my own
community.
And I was like, Yeah, like dothat.
Um, build the community I need.
This is where I've seen clientsmeet this need by engaging in
just creative problem solving.
Like, okay, I have this need forconnection.
How can I do that?
You know, I've seen some clientscreate book clubs or walking
(50:23):
groups or connect with, youknow, community events in their
neighborhood, starting them.
Like we are people ofcreativity.
And so there's, you know, Ithere's this beautiful
invitation to to create um andto to to add like to put out in
the world and say, hey, likethis is what this is what I want
(50:44):
to do and see who comes.
And then oftentimes those areour people in a lot of ways.
So those are just a few waysthat I think what I've seen,
what I've noticed when peoplestart taking that agency and
saying, I I need community.
And what are some ways I can dothat?
That inner work is thatfoundation, and then that
obviously can lead to takingsome risks and getting out
(51:07):
there.
SPEAKER_00 (51:08):
I'm glad you mentioned that that part too,
the idea of taking risks, right?
Um, because to build community,it is risky, especially if
you've been hurt before.
It's scary to think to putyourself out there again and
feel the rejection orunwantedness and so on.
But would it be fair to say thatthat's part of the process?
SPEAKER_01 (51:28):
I think so, right?
We say like safe enough, right?
unknown (51:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (51:32):
That's good.
That's good.
SPEAKER_01 (51:34):
Safe enough.
It doesn't have to be, it's notgoing to be all the way safe,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (51:39):
But that's so true.
Yeah.
That's good.
Well, this has been a greatconversation, Carly.
Thank you so much again just forum having this conversation with
me about um why connection is soimportant.
Um, but before we close, isthere any are there any final
thoughts?
Anything that I missed, anythingthat you feel like it would be
good for the audience to know umabout our topic that we
(52:00):
discussed today?
SPEAKER_01 (52:01):
I think the only thing I would add to all of this
is just being gentle with whereyou are at in this process, you
know.
Um everybody's in a differentplace.
And so be where we are, and andthat is a really beautiful place
to connect, right?
That's a good first startingplace.
It's like, where do I begin?
Begin where you are.
Start connecting with whereveryou're at um and allow that to
(52:24):
lead you.
SPEAKER_00 (52:26):
That's great.
I love that.
Well, thank you again, Carly.
I really appreciated your timeand this conversation.
And yeah, for those of you whotuned in, I hope this was a
blessing to you.
And tune in next week for the100th episode, which I will
prepare something special forthat.
So I'm looking forward to it.
I'll see you guys then.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.