December 17, 2025 • 38 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
Ever feel like you’re doing everything “right” and still can’t shake the sense that God is far away? We dig into three core questions many Christians carry in secret: why we can feel anxious or avoidant with a God we call our secure base, how early attachment wounds color our view of His heart, and what’s going on when faithful practices don’t translate into felt closeness.
We unpack the crucial difference between what we know about God (God concept) and how we experience Him (God image), and why both matter. Drawing from Scripture and attachment research, we trace how anxious faith tends to perform to avoid rejection while avoidant faith relies on self-sufficiency to dodge vulnerability. Along the way, we normalize lament as a faithful response, explore divine struggle without shame, and highlight rupture-and-repair as the slow engine of secure attachment with God—where repeated experiences of His presence re-train our bodies to expect safety, not abandonment.
You’ll hear practical pathways for integrating head and heart: treating Scripture as conversation instead of a checklist, approaching prayer as shared life rather than a wish list, and engaging church as a living conduit of God’s nearness. We also contrast correspondence and compensation—how our family stories either echo into faith or are healed by it—and challenge the myth that religious activity automatically equals intimacy. If you’ve wondered why closeness feels elusive, this conversation offers language, tools, and hope.
If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review so others can find it. What’s one small practice that helps you sense God’s nearness today?
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MY HOPE FOR YOU
I hope these episodes bring you closer to Christ and encourage you in your walk with Him. Meditating on Scripture, Being committed to prayer, and Seeking Christian community are all essential to helping us learn more of who He is and who He made us to be.
ABOUT ME 👇
I have been a Christ-follower for the last 20+ years of my life, and have seen the Lord's grace, strength, and faithfulness through it all. He led me to pursue a degree in higher education and has given me a gift for the field of counseling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Alright everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm excited that you're here.
Thank you for tuning in.
And we are on episode 104 of GodAttachment Healing.
And today I think you guys aregonna enjoy this episode.
I'm gonna answer three of themost uh popular questions or
questions that come up for a lotof people who are wanting to
(00:27):
figure out what their attachmentstyle to God is.
Um, but more importantly, justwhat are the barriers or what
are some of the questions thatthey have um about those
barriers in being able toconnect with God?
So I'll touch on three.
Uh uh, I think I'm gonna do thisas a two-part series.
Um, there were so many questionsI could have chosen from, and uh
I picked these three, and Ithink you guys will enjoy um
(00:50):
today's episode.
So, again, thank you for tuningin.
I've been working on getting acouple of guests, some who are
returning, some who uh are new,and I'm looking forward to
presenting those to you guys inthe next couple of weeks,
probably at the start of nextyear.
I'm gonna close out this year.
I think I have maybe two orthree left for this year.
Uh, they'll still be still bereleased.
(01:12):
They're pretty close toChristmas and New Year's.
I'll still release the episodes.
Um, and then we'll just jumpinto a new year and get right
back to it.
So I'm looking forward to that.
And I just have to say, it feelsso good to finally be done with
uh schoolwork, no moredissertation, uh, no more
(01:32):
grading.
I actually finished grading lastnight.
So yeah, it just feels it feelsvery weird, but I feel like I
need to get some rest and thenI'm gonna have some projects
that I'm gonna work on here atthe house.
And uh yeah, it just feels Ijust feel like a different man,
you know.
Hopefully, um that shows in theupcoming episodes.
(01:54):
So again, I appreciate you beinghere.
All right, so today we're gonnatalk about the top three
questions that Christians haveabout their attachment to God or
potential barriers to theirrelationship with God.
So I'm gonna touch on this firstone here.
And the question basically is ifGod is my secure base, why do I
(02:15):
still feel anxious or avoidantwith him?
Now, this is always aninteresting question because,
you know, obviously this podcastfocuses on attachment styles.
And as you, if you've beenfollowing the podcast, one of
the things that you'll knowabout the podcast or about
attachment is that the way thatour relationships are with our
(02:36):
parents kind of shapes the waythat we then view our
relationship with God.
And one of the biggest barriersthat I've seen in churches or
people who grew up in the churchhave is that they feel distant
from God or they feel like theyhave to perform or do something
in order to be accepted by God,right?
(02:56):
We all have the desire to pleaseGod and to honor him because
he's our Father, our HeavenlyFather, and we want to do what's
right because we have arelationship with him, but the
anxiously attached individual toGod has this ongoing thought of
I need to keep on doing in orderto be accepted.
(03:19):
So it's not that they feelanxious just about getting close
to God or or um having questionsabout their relationship with
God, it's that they actuallyfeel that if they don't do these
things, God will reject them.
Right.
And then you have another type,which is the avoidant type.
And this is someone who learnsto be independent, kind of takes
things on their own, and theydon't really need anyone, at
(03:43):
least that's the way that theythat they feel.
You know, they do well withinteracting with other people,
uh, they even do well in churchand you know, can't talk about
having a relationship with God,but they're not really having an
intimate relationship with Godwhere they not just know him,
but are able to experience him.
And I think I talk about ittoday, but I will talk about it
(04:04):
in future episodes where thewhat's the difference?
And I actually have some guestson for that.
What's the difference betweenexperiencing God in the
relationship and just knowingabout God?
I think that's a very importantquestion, especially when it
comes to discussing how we seeGod as a secure base.
So to answer the question, ifGod is my secure base, then why
(04:26):
do I still feel anxious oravoidant with him?
And maybe one of the questionsthat we can start with, or one
of the statements that we canstart with, is we've all heard
the concept or the teaching thatGod is always with you, which is
true, right?
God is always with us.
And but oftentimes we don't feelthat way.
We don't feel that he's close tous.
(04:47):
So again, for the anxious, it'sgonna be this idea of, well,
because I did something wrong,then God is not gonna be close
to me.
He's actually gonna push me awaybecause I've failed him, right?
Uh for the avoidantness, I justdon't know what it is that it
actually feels like.
I don't know if he's close or ifhe's far.
I don't know.
They can't really identifywhether or not God is close to
(05:08):
them.
So what happens is that they'rethey do become or they start to
feel uh distant, disappointed,um, and really don't know how
God views them.
Right?
In the research, one of the waysthat this is described, and I've
talked about this before, is youhave the God concept, which is
what you know about God, andthen you have the God image,
(05:31):
which is how you experience God.
And there's different types ofpeople that are going to lean
one way or the other, okay?
Uh, both of these elements areessential, both having a God
image, which is the experienceof God, and a God concept, which
is our knowledge of God.
So they're both important,right?
(05:52):
There's gonna be some people whofocus more on the experience,
and there's gonna be anothergroup of people who focus more
on the knowledge of God, right?
And both of those are okay,right?
I tend to be more from theknowledge perspective, like if I
know more about God, I feelcloser to him because I'm
learning more about him and Ikeep learning new things.
(06:14):
And it wasn't until maybe Iwouldn't say just a couple of
years ago, but many years ago,where I started to have uh
experience God differently,meaning I had emotions about my
relationship with God, which Ididn't have before.
Like I felt the knowledge wasenough.
I felt like if I had enoughdata, enough facts, enough
verses that I memorized, thatthat would be enough.
(06:36):
So I felt close to God in thatway.
But there was really no emotionattached to that.
And again, I think that'simportant.
So for those of you guys who arelistening who tend to be more
logical based, for you, thatmight be what feels comfortable.
But if you don't are not feelinganything in your relationship
with God, then I think thatcould be uh a sign of trouble in
(06:58):
a sense, or not having the fullum understanding of who God is.
And obviously we we have limitedunderstanding, but I'm trying to
say that you broaden yourexperience and your relationship
with God by having thoseemotions attached to it.
For example, one of the emotionsthat you can have is
disappointment, right?
There are times where we've beendisappointed with God.
I I felt that way before.
(07:19):
I'm sure many of you have feltthat way.
And the question is so is itokay for me to feel
disappointed?
And you might initially kind ofshame yourself, like, why am I
feeling disappointed?
You know, the Lord is faithful,he's just, he's kind, he's all
of these things.
But right now, I don't feel thatway.
I feel like this is unjust,what's happening, right?
(07:40):
It's okay to express thosefeelings, and I think that's
that was missing when I wasgrowing up, is that I felt that
because I knew that God wasfaithful, just, and righteous,
that my feelings wouldeventually align with that.
And that wasn't the case, andthat was part of my my struggle
is that how does this knowledgethat I have about God, how come
(08:02):
my feelings aren't lining upwith that?
Like I know he's faithful, but Idon't feel that way.
I feel like this is very unjust,that this is very wrong.
Like, why, why aren't you here,Lord?
I felt him distant.
So allowing myself to experiencethough that disappointment and
that frustration and maybe evenanger at times was healthy
because it showed me, wow, Ifeel this anger, I feel this
(08:25):
disappointment, even a littlebit of uh of bitterness.
But I feel like God is closereven during this time.
And that was hard for me tounderstand because again, if I'm
not honoring God, or if I'm notletting God use this experience
to actually teach me something,then I must be doing something
(08:46):
wrong.
If I wasn't learning anything,then it must be because I'm
doing something wrong.
And what I learned is that thatGod was kind of the sounding
board for me to air out thesefrustrations.
You know, obviously we see thisin the Psalms, all over the
Psalms and over through thescriptures as well, that there
are these moments where manypeople in the scriptures express
(09:06):
disappointment or confusion oreven anxiety about God and what
he's doing and so on.
So I realized that it was a veryimportant part of our
relationship and experience withGod.
So this is again totally normalto be able to lean on one side
or the other, but what we wantto have is a good balance of
(09:27):
both.
Understanding that you're gonnahave a tendency to lean towards
one more than the other.
So that's important.
You know, the attachmentresearch basically teaches that
people often map their earlycaregiver experiences onto God.
So when theology says that Godis faithful, the inconsistency
really comes with how our bodiesexperience that.
(09:48):
Again, it's it's important tohave the knowledge of God.
And if you grew up in a homethat was dysfunctional and was
aggressive or abusive in manyways, your body records all of
that, right?
And when you get older and youhave these same thoughts of God
being faithful, and let's sayyou grew up in a home where
(10:11):
maybe that was taught, or maybethat was said, but the
experience maybe it was thatyour parents were always
fighting, or it was that theywere very aggressive towards
you, or that they justmisunderstood everything that
you'd say, or you'd get introuble for nothing, or there
was always discipline, but nolove.
All of these things, right, canbe very confusing for you to
(10:32):
experience as a child.
So when you get older and yousee these things start to happen
again, your mind is trying tocounter the beliefs that you had
at that time with biblicaltruth.
But your body is saying, No, butyou've heard that before, and
you actually were scared andhurt and disappointed.
So there's a disconnect here,right?
(10:54):
So that's very, very importantto understand because again,
you're gonna experience that ifyou grew up in a home that was
not um evidenced what you'vebeen taught about who God is and
who Jesus is.
Okay.
So if there's a disconnectthere, your body's gonna feel
off, even though your mind'sgonna try to reconcile those
two.
(11:14):
But you have to pay attention towhat that could actually mean,
right?
The anxious attachment to Godshows up as a preoccupation with
being rejected by God andoverreading negative negative
events as signs of hisdispleasure or of his
discipline.
And that is really what theanxious attachment style is
looking at.
(11:34):
If they're going throughsomething difficult, they will
think to themselves, This is Godpunishing me.
I must have done something wrongto deserve this.
Why is God upset at me?
What did I do to deserve this?
Oh, that's what I did.
Oh, this must be a punishment, apunishment from way back when
when I failed God in thissituation.
Right.
So that's where the anxiousattachment style goes.
(11:57):
They start to think of all thepossibilities of why they're
being disciplined by God.
Because if God is good, then Ishouldn't be experiencing these
things.
But because I am experiencingthese things, then I must have
done something bad, right?
If you've listened to previousepisodes, one of the things that
I talk about a lot is the viewof self and the view of others,
part of the attachment styles.
And God attachment is the viewof self and the view of God.
(12:20):
So in this case, I'm worthless,I'm nothing, everything's my
fault, I failed, all of thosethings.
And God obviously is just,righteous, and good.
That belief is good.
The view of self, thoughnegative, again, that's where
the anxious attachment style umsits, and everything is their
fault.
So it doesn't allow for them toactually experience the grace
(12:42):
and love and forgiveness of God.
So that's really where theanxious attachment style will
remain.
So there is for the avoidantthis over-reliance on self and
discomfort with intimacy andprayer.
And that was really that thatwas really interesting too,
because again, there is thiselement of, you know, I'll go to
(13:07):
church and you know, I'll singthe songs, I'll be in community
with other people, with otherChristians.
And then after that, I'm I'm I'mgone, right?
Um, prayer in and of itself is avery intimate relationship,
communication that we have withGod, not just of what's going on
in our day, but you know, how isGod showing up in the situation
(13:29):
that that I'm in?
It doesn't have to be bad allthe time, it could be good.
Um, and maybe that's what weneed to focus on.
We think that if we focus on thegood, then obviously everything
that we're doing is good.
At least that's what we think.
Um, and if something happensthat's bad, what the avoidant
will do is okay, this is myfault.
I'm gonna take ownership and I'mjust gonna fix this and correct
(13:51):
it, right?
No dependence on God, overdependence on self, if that
makes sense, right?
So, as opposed to the anxiousattachment who says it's my
fault, I need to make this up,and they work even harder to
gain back the Lord's favor.
The avoidant attachment stylewill look at the situation and
say, you know what?
I gotta take care of this, Igotta fix this.
(14:11):
You know, obviously, myrelationship with God matters.
So I'm gonna do what I can tomake this right.
And in their eyes, it's allwithin their power that they're
able to make the changes to feelbetter about themselves, not
necessarily about theirrelationship with God.
So that's how you see theseattachment styles kind of play
(14:32):
out.
And by the way, scriptureacknowledges each of these
things that people can believein God intellectually while
feeling abandoned and afraid,right?
We have David uh in Psalm 13 andPsalm 42.
Um, we see in scripture allthroughout it, we see how God
reveals himself as someone whois near the brokenhearted, and
(14:54):
that's in Psalm 34, verse 18.
God also says, I will neverleave you nor forsake you.
That's in Hebrews 13.
And there is this ongoingmessage again about God's
presence in our lives, which isagain true.
The question is how the avoidantand the anxious interpret that
(15:14):
in their own relationship withwith the Lord, right?
So it's very important that wepay attention to those things
because you're gonna land on oneof these things.
I assume that most people aregonna be on the anxious
attachment style.
Um, avoidance typically, I mean,they're harder to to identify,
especially within within therelationship with God or with
(15:36):
the church, um, because we justlook at people who leave the
church and that's avoidant.
And that's not necessarily thecase.
It could be, but not necessarilythe case.
So here's what we need tounderstand about this question
about why do I still feelanxious or avoidant?
Well, one of the things that weneed to understand is that
healing takes time.
(15:57):
And when we feel distant fromthe Lord, we may think that, oh,
I'm not healing because I stillfeel distant from the Lord.
But sometimes, remember, you'regoing through a difficult
situation.
We don't know what the timelineis on that difficult situation.
I wish I did.
Um, and if I did, would thatmake me cling to God a little
(16:19):
bit more, or would it push meaway?
Like what would happen if I knewwhat the timeline was?
Right?
So we need to understand thatwhen we feel distant or that God
is distant or has abandoned us,that maybe it's a time where
we're just reflecting on youknow who he is in that moment.
(16:40):
Maybe we need that, right?
Um, so as we start to allow Godto heal us with time, then we
start to grow our dependence onhim more and more.
So we need continued experiencesof him responding in safe ways,
which is what I experienced.
When you have multiplesituations where it feels like
(17:03):
everything in your life has justbroken down and it's a
disappointment, and you don'tknow what to do, and you just
feel abandoned, you feel alone,right?
It's in those moments where Godstarts to speak to you, and the
way that we create a safe andsecure attachment to God is that
we see, as we I've said before,the rupture, which is the
(17:25):
disappointment, the despair, thediscouragement, the depression,
whatever it is.
And then you see God show up.
And if you see that enoughtimes, you start to develop a
secure attachment to God.
Like, hey, God's gonna show uplike He's done many times
before.
I know this is very hard whatI'm experiencing right now, but
because of the many times thatGod has shown up, I know that
(17:48):
it's gonna happen again, right?
So that's the security.
It's not that the pain isremoved right away, it's that
you know that after the pain,that God is still going to love,
care, and be there for you.
So that is the first question.
Uh, second question (18:04):
how do my early attachment wounds affect
how I relate to God?
Well, for the insecureattachment style, there's kind
of three factors that that weneed to pay attention to that
they've probably experienced intheir early childhood.
Um, neglect, inconsistency, andemotional unavailability.
(18:27):
Okay.
Neglect, inconsistency,emotional unavailability.
So when they experience this intheir relationship, think think
what happens in the relationshipwith their parents or primary
caregivers when they get olderand they have these feelings
come up, it's natural totransfer those same feelings
over to God, like, oh, the Lordis neglecting me, or he's being
(18:51):
inconsistent.
Because last time I prayed aboutthis and he answered it in the
positive, and now it doesn'tseem like it's working, right?
So we say, Well, maybe I need topray more, so I'm gonna keep
praying more, keep praying more.
Maybe I need to go preach thegospel more.
So they go and preach thegospel, maybe I need to be
around church people more, andthey go and do that as well.
So they're trying to find waysto build a secure attachment
(19:14):
with God.
And what they think in theirmind is that if things are
working out my way, then thatmeans the Lord is being there
for me.
If they're not working out, thenthat means I'm doing something
wrong.
Right.
And again, that comes from thisidea of I need to establish, I
need to do more in order for meto be valuable enough for the
(19:36):
Lord to be consistent, for himto be emotionally present, and
for him to be um uh a securebase for me.
Right.
So on the other side, for theavoidant attachment, they're
gonna have experiences of theywill have some neglect, um, and
specifically regarding needs.
(19:57):
So again, the avoidant learnshow to meet their own needs.
Because their needs weren't metwhen they were younger.
So when it comes to relationshipwith the Lord, like they can ask
for things, but they're notgoing to go deep dive in it
because they still have thisalmost this moral
responsibility, moralresponsibility to do things, do
things on their own to meettheir own needs.
(20:19):
So they don't really want tofully depend on God, but just
enough so that it sounds likethey are depending on God.
And that's really important tounderstand because people who
grew up with harsh,unpredictable caregivers often
picture God as stern, easilydisappointed, or emotionally
distant.
(20:40):
Right.
So again, the parents I thinkthat this is one of the reasons
why the family is so important.
Um, it really does create thepicture of us of what the church
looks like and what ourrelationship with God looks
like, right?
We have our parents who are tomodel for us, what love, care,
discipline, um uh emotionalattunement, presence, all of
(21:05):
these things that they'resupposed to model that for us.
And when that doesn't happen, wehave we begin to develop a
distorted view of God.
Now, this is very important toobecause there are a lot of
people that I know who grew upwho didn't grow up in the
church.
They came to know the Lord lateron.
So they actually develop a verysecure attachment to God because
of so much chaos and so muchdistress when they were uh
(21:28):
growing up that they didn't knowanything different.
So they come to know the Lord,and it's like the best thing
that they've ever umexperienced, whether it be
through the church or as they'relearning through scripture,
learning more about God'scharacter.
Wow, this is who Jesus is.
Wow, that's amazing! Like, Ididn't know he loved me so much.
I didn't know he died for me onthe cross, I didn't know all of
(21:48):
these things.
And they come to know the Lordin a very special, meaningful
way.
And I'm not saying that those ofus who did grow up in the church
don't have that, but I thinkthere's a point where we take it
for granted.
I think there's a point where,yeah, I'm a Christian, you know,
I grew up in the church and wehave all the knowledge, at least
that's that's how I was.
But like I had all theknowledge, I knew how to um talk
(22:11):
about what that relationshipwith the Lord could look like
without the experience.
Like, what does it really feellike to be close to God, close
to Jesus in a relationship?
So um I knew what to say, but Ididn't actually have that close
relationship relationship withthe Lord.
And I think many of us who grewup in the church have that
(22:32):
experience.
So those who didn't grow up inthe church, they have what would
be called the um compensationtheory, which is for everything
that they lacked growing up, theLord compensates for that
through relationship with Him,through the church, and through
His Word, through prayer and soon.
Right.
So God compensates for what theywere lacking in their childhood.
(22:55):
For those of us who grew up inthe church, we have what's
called the correspondencetheory, which is the way that
our parents treated us andreflected um Christ in the home,
is how we grew up seeing ourrelationship with Jesus when we
get older.
So we see a lot of these um uhverses that talk about God being
(23:17):
a father, right?
Him being a shepherd, him caringfor us in that way.
So again, these pictures thatwe're seeing of okay, here's how
my parents treated me, andhere's what the Bible says about
God being a comforter and like ashepherd and like a father, and
there's a disconnect somewhere,right?
So that disconnects thatdisconnect is obviously gonna
(23:39):
affect how we relate to God andalso how we view God, right?
So, how do we then relate to Godif we had a good upbringing?
Well, it's gonna be the same waythat you relate to your parents,
right?
If you grew up with loving,caring, attentive, faithful
parents, you probably have agood relationship with them.
Uh, and you probably know how totalk about your day, right?
(24:01):
Know how to talk about youremotions, know how to talk about
some beliefs and thoughts thatyou've had as you've grown up,
because they provided a spacefor you to just share
everything, right?
And if you have that, that'sgreat because then you can
transfer that over to yourrelationship with God.
And probably most of you whohave that probably do that
already.
For those who had a more maybeanxiously attached style where
(24:22):
it was inconsistent.
Um, maybe at times it was um uhsometimes your needs were met
and sometimes they weren't, orthey weren't met correctly,
right?
Even though your parents triedas hard as they could, there's
this belief that maybe God can'tmeet all our needs, or maybe I'm
just too much.
Maybe that's why we feel like wehave to work for God's love.
So they start doing that andthey get so involved in the
(24:44):
church, they start doing all ofthese things, all these all of
these activities, hoping thatthat will bring them closer to
God.
And in some ways it does, and inother ways it doesn't, right?
Again, the main thing to keep inmind here is that the anxiously
attached individual believesthat if they do those things,
God will accept them and Godwill love them.
God already loves them, Godalready accepts them.
(25:06):
It's just those things should bea natural outgrowth of our
relationship with Him.
So there's a lot of work thatgets done there.
Now, for this last question, ifGod loves me, this is question
three, if God loves me, why doesHe feel so distant?
Especially when I'm actuallygoing to church and doing the
right things.
(25:26):
Okay, so this is this is very uhsimilar to the first one, but I
wanted to talk about it becauseit focuses on this idea of doing
the right things.
Again, those of us who grew upin the church, we knew what to
do, we knew what to say.
And in many ways, the ourparents and people around us
looked at that and said, Oh,they they love the Lord, they
(25:47):
must be growing in theirrelationship with the Lord.
But we just grew up kind ofknowing what to say, and I think
that's normal.
I I don't think that there's away to get around that.
Like, I mean, I have my kids,I'm teaching them about Jesus,
and they're gonna say and dowhatever I'm teaching them,
right?
And um, and that's gonna benormal.
Now they're gonna reach a pointwhere they're gonna have
(26:08):
questions.
And can I provide a safe spacefor them to ask those questions
and not get defensive or feellike they're falling away
because they're starting tocreate their own um minds or
have their own minds and havequestions?
Like I can't let that scare me.
I have to be very firm in mybeliefs and my convictions about
what I believe about scriptureand what I believe about Jesus
(26:30):
so that I can pass that on tothem.
And when they have questions,that I can ref refer them back
to scripture so that they cancontinue to explore what that
means for them.
I'm not saying it's gonna beeasy.
I actually think it's gonna bepretty hard for me, but I'm
hoping that the Lord gives mesome grace so that they don't
experience what I experiencedgrowing up, or it was I knew the
(26:51):
things about God, but I didn'thave that relationship with Him.
And I'm trying to reallydemonstrate that to my boys that
it's not just the that they knowabout me, but that they also
have um this relationship withme where they feel comfortable
to talk about these variousthings in their lives.
So um that is what I plan to dowith them because what happens
(27:15):
with Christians who grew up inthe church, they experience this
painful dissonance, right?
That regular spiritual practicesand attent to and attendance to
church, to church activitiesshould draw me closer to the
Lord.
So if they're doing all of thosethings, they may falsely believe
that that is that automaticallymeans that they're closer to the
Lord.
(27:36):
But remember, there are manytimes where we can be doing the
right thing, but our hearts canstill be far away from God.
I mean, this was the error ofthe Pharisees and Sadducees,
right?
They were doing all the rightthings, but their hearts were
far from the Lord, and he callsthem out on that, right?
So there's some research thattalks about this struggle with
(27:57):
with understanding God, and theresearch calls it divine
struggles, and suggests thatfeeling abandoned or punished by
God, even when one isreligiously active, predicts
more depressive symptoms andoverall distress, and definitely
have seen that, right?
That the idea of if there'ssomething happening negatively
in my life or negative in mylife, that I'm being punished by
(28:20):
God.
And because I'm being punishedby God, the creator of the
world, the person who I'msupposed to call father, the
person who is supposed to loveand care for me, if I am feeling
punished or abandoned by him,then that's gonna create in me a
sense of I'm doing somethingwrong, or the way that I'm
feeling doesn't make sense.
I shouldn't be feeling thesethings, because if God is all of
(28:43):
these things for me, then what'swrong with me?
Right?
There's something off here.
And I can't blame God becausehe's perfect, so it must be me.
And there is a humanity part tothat, right?
That this is the effects of sinin our lives.
Original sin, right?
Sin that we're born with, but itcan also be when we look back at
(29:06):
our lives and we see sins thatwe've done and we feel that
we're being punished for thosesins.
Now, does God actually operatethat way?
And I have this is one of thequestions I'm gonna ask for one
of these, um uh one of myguests.
Is does God operate that way?
We know that God punishes hischildren to correct them, to
bring them back into rightalignment with him, right?
(29:27):
We we see that in scripture, Ithink it's in Hebrews.
Um, and we see, I mean, we seewith the children of Israel all
throughout the Old Testament,right?
He's constantly correcting thembecause they're going off track.
So we do see that.
Um, but does he always punish usfor things from our past, or is
it only things in the present,or is it just a natural
(29:49):
consequence of living our dailylife, right?
Just sin in the world.
So it could be a variety ofthings, but that's one of the
questions I want to explore withuh with this with this guest.
So uh that when we have thesethese um religious doubts,
right?
After uh and for feelingdepressed, uh, like I shouldn't
(30:10):
be feeling this way in arelationship with the Lord, um,
obviously it can cause more uhuh dysfunction, depression,
anxiety in a relationship withhim.
However, secure attachment toGod is associated with more
engaged participation incongregational life and a
greater sense of belonging andspiritual vitality.
So when we do have a securerelationship with God, when we
(30:33):
see him as good and we see thework that he's doing in our
lives, and we are drawing closerto him, there is this desire of
wanting to know him more throughreading his word, through
prayer, and through seeking outcommunity, right?
That it brings back thisvitality.
And this is what I mean forthose who did not grow up in the
church, when they come to knowthe Lord, they experience all of
these good things for the firsttime in their life that they
(30:54):
learn to appreciate it and theythey draw closer to God because
of it.
Like they see God as a safehaven, as a secure base, right?
And for us who grew up in thechurch, I think we we kind of
become numb at some point and westart to ask all these
questions, which creates somelevels of distress, which pulls
us back a little bit.
But then we start to realize no,what I've been taught was good,
(31:15):
and this does align withscripture, and now I'm just
experiencing something differentthat I didn't know before,
right?
Um, scripture normalizes theseseasons when God feels hidden.
And by the way, I have a friend,um, Dr.
Josh Waltman.
He actually has a book calledWhy Does God Seem So Hidden?
And you can read to learn moreabout this.
I think we talked about it alittle bit in an episode a long,
(31:37):
long time ago.
But if you're interested, that'sone book that you that you want
to get.
Really smart guy, really greatguy, and I'm sure he has a lot
to say.
And I hope to have him back onthe show as well.
So, his covenant love, hissteadfast attachment.
So let's think about that.
Just God as a secure base, hissecure attachment to us and us
(31:57):
to him, provides in us theability to seek him out during
difficult times, right?
You want to learn about aperson, who do they turn to?
What do they turn to when theyare under stress?
And this is where you start tosee that secure base, that
rupture repair process wherethere's a rupture, the repair is
where do I go?
Um, I always talk about this.
(32:18):
I think I've said this before,where we all have our Peter
moment, right?
Uh, this is the moment whenJesus was healing and doing
miracles and teaching.
And there came a point where thepeople stopped following.
They they start to pull away andleave.
And Jesus looks over to his owndisciples, the 12, and he says,
(32:40):
Uh, would are you guys going toleave me as well?
And Peter makes the most umremarkable comment that he can
make, which was to say, Um,Lord, who do we turn to?
You have the words of eternallife, basically saying, We're
not going anywhere.
You are our secure base.
There's nothing else that wehave to turn to that's gonna
(33:03):
give us the security that youhave given us.
Security both for salvationthrough him, and also just the
life that he's given.
I mean, he gave them a new life,and after that, obviously, they
were willing to die for theirbelief in him.
Um, and there's a whole story,there's so much more beyond
that.
But um, yeah, this is this isvery important as we see all of
(33:26):
these examples in scripture ofhow God is seen as a secure
base.
So just because you're doing theright things doesn't
automatically mean that you'regonna be closer to Jesus, right?
We do those things out of anoutgrowth of our love for him,
but they are not necessarilythings that will automatically
(33:47):
move us closer to him, right?
Again, similar to the Pharisees,you can be doing all the right
things and still feel far fromthe Lord.
Believers are called not only toindividual practices, but to
embody life in the church whereChrist's presence is promised in
gathered community.
So, again, I preach on this allthe time, right?
(34:09):
Scripture, prayer, Christiancommunity.
If you have those three things,those three things are
contributing to yourrelationship with the Lord, and
they all have a differentfunction or a same goal, but
function differently.
They each provide somethingdifferent.
So prayer, that conversationwith God, where you're not just
(34:30):
talking to God and saying,Here's all the things that I
want, where which some peopledo, they just treat God as a
genie.
But it's this relationship, likenot asking necessarily how your
day is, but being able to hearwhat God has to say as a father.
Like I have three boys, andthere are times where I'm trying
to share something with them,and they'll try to interrupt.
I'm like, hey, wait, wait, wait.
I'm trying to teach yousomething.
(34:52):
Uh with my oldest, I was tryingto teach him how to throw
football, and I was telling himall the little details about
here's how you hold it, and soon.
And he said, Okay, okay, I gotit.
No, no, no, you don't got it.
Wait, let me teach you.
You have to grab it like this,and he he calmed down, got
patient, and so on.
Right.
And I think sometimes we we dothat with the Lord, where, yeah,
Lord, I've heard this many, manytimes before.
(35:12):
You don't need to tell me aboutthis again.
Patience.
Let me teach you.
You're going through this rightnow.
Let me show you how I work, howI operate.
Here's my how I uh I'm gonnashow you my love, my grace
through this experience.
And it's very, it's verycomforting to see someone who
cares about you so much thatthey're willing to take the time
(35:33):
to be patient with us as we aswe grow, right?
I love my sons a ton.
And based off of that love, Ican be patient with them when I
see that they're trying to rushthrough things or they're not
really paying attention.
It's not this frustration withthem.
I can be frustrated with them attimes, but for the most part, I
think I understand their age andhow I was as a kid as well.
(35:56):
And I think the Lord understandsour humanity as well and
continues to be patient with usthrough our life.
So in attachment language, Godoften mediates his nearness
through the body of Christ.
Safe, nurturing relationships inthe church can become relational
conduits through which God'spresence is experienced,
gradually softening insecureinternal models of God.
(36:18):
So, this final point here aboutthe reason why community is so
important is because the Bible,especially in the New Testament,
makes a lot of emphasis on theimportance of community, the
importance of the church.
And what I will say is know thatyou can't grow in your Christian
walk if you're not in community.
Like that is a requirement in asense.
(36:41):
And I don't say it's so you cansit note it and say, okay,
there's something I have to do.
It is a natural thing that theChristian should want to do.
And if you don't want to gathertogether with other believers,
if you don't go to churchregularly, if you're not meeting
with other believers, then I cansay that there's something off
there because that is somethingthat we naturally want.
(37:02):
Now you might say I'm anintrovert, I'm an introvert as
well.
That doesn't remove the desireto want to gather together with
other believers, right?
There are moments in life wherewe're busy and we're doing
things and everyone's indifferent stages of life.
Totally get that.
What I'm referring to is nothaving the desire to gather
together with other believers,right?
(37:24):
Almost rejecting wanting to gettogether with other believers,
right?
We should look foropportunities.
Now, everyone has a different umenergy system, meaning, like if
you're extrovert, introvert,whatever the case is.
I again, I get all of that.
For me, what I'm asking is asyou reflect on your relationship
with the Lord, is what is yourrelationship towards the church,
(37:45):
towards community like?
Do you want it?
Do you see purpose for it,right?
Iron sharpens iron.
This idea of if you're aroundother believers, you're going to
continue to grow because they'regoing to expose things or
they're going to sharpen areasof your life that you may not
fully be aware of.
So that's why we need communityto make us aware of those things
for accountability, forChristian growth, and so on.
(38:06):
So all of those things areextremely important for you to
grow in your walk with Christ.
All right, man, I felt like Icovered so much today.
Um, so yeah, so those were thethree questions for today, guys.
Hopefully you found thathelpful.
Um, next week I'll do a part twoand answer the next couple of
questions.
But as always, thank you againfor tuning into the episode.
(38:27):
Um feel free to share this withyour friends, other people who
may benefit from this.
Again, attachment.
I love talking about thisbecause it seems like there's a
lot of people who are interestedin it and only see it in their
relationship with other people,but they don't see it and how it
applies in their relationshipwith God.
So hopefully I'm opening someroom for you to have those type
of conversations and we'll seehow it goes moving forward.
(38:48):
Thanks for tuning in.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.
Alright everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm excited that you're here.
Thank you for tuning in.
And we are on episode 104 of GodAttachment Healing.
And today I think you guys aregonna enjoy this episode.
I'm gonna answer three of themost uh popular questions or
questions that come up for a lotof people who are wanting to
(00:27):
figure out what their attachmentstyle to God is.
Um, but more importantly, justwhat are the barriers or what
are some of the questions thatthey have um about those
barriers in being able toconnect with God?
So I'll touch on three.
Uh uh, I think I'm gonna do thisas a two-part series.
Um, there were so many questionsI could have chosen from, and uh
I picked these three, and Ithink you guys will enjoy um
(00:50):
today's episode.
So, again, thank you for tuningin.
I've been working on getting acouple of guests, some who are
returning, some who uh are new,and I'm looking forward to
presenting those to you guys inthe next couple of weeks,
probably at the start of nextyear.
I'm gonna close out this year.
I think I have maybe two orthree left for this year.
Uh, they'll still be still bereleased.
(01:12):
They're pretty close toChristmas and New Year's.
I'll still release the episodes.
Um, and then we'll just jumpinto a new year and get right
back to it.
So I'm looking forward to that.
And I just have to say, it feelsso good to finally be done with
uh schoolwork, no moredissertation, uh, no more
(01:32):
grading.
I actually finished grading lastnight.
So yeah, it just feels it feelsvery weird, but I feel like I
need to get some rest and thenI'm gonna have some projects
that I'm gonna work on here atthe house.
And uh yeah, it just feels Ijust feel like a different man,
you know.
Hopefully, um that shows in theupcoming episodes.
(01:54):
So again, I appreciate you beinghere.
All right, so today we're gonnatalk about the top three
questions that Christians haveabout their attachment to God or
potential barriers to theirrelationship with God.
So I'm gonna touch on this firstone here.
And the question basically is ifGod is my secure base, why do I
(02:15):
still feel anxious or avoidantwith him?
Now, this is always aninteresting question because,
you know, obviously this podcastfocuses on attachment styles.
And as you, if you've beenfollowing the podcast, one of
the things that you'll knowabout the podcast or about
attachment is that the way thatour relationships are with our
(02:36):
parents kind of shapes the waythat we then view our
relationship with God.
And one of the biggest barriersthat I've seen in churches or
people who grew up in the churchhave is that they feel distant
from God or they feel like theyhave to perform or do something
in order to be accepted by God,right?
(02:56):
We all have the desire to pleaseGod and to honor him because
he's our Father, our HeavenlyFather, and we want to do what's
right because we have arelationship with him, but the
anxiously attached individual toGod has this ongoing thought of
I need to keep on doing in orderto be accepted.
(03:19):
So it's not that they feelanxious just about getting close
to God or or um having questionsabout their relationship with
God, it's that they actuallyfeel that if they don't do these
things, God will reject them.
Right.
And then you have another type,which is the avoidant type.
And this is someone who learnsto be independent, kind of takes
things on their own, and theydon't really need anyone, at
(03:43):
least that's the way that theythat they feel.
You know, they do well withinteracting with other people,
uh, they even do well in churchand you know, can't talk about
having a relationship with God,but they're not really having an
intimate relationship with Godwhere they not just know him,
but are able to experience him.
And I think I talk about ittoday, but I will talk about it
(04:04):
in future episodes where thewhat's the difference?
And I actually have some guestson for that.
What's the difference betweenexperiencing God in the
relationship and just knowingabout God?
I think that's a very importantquestion, especially when it
comes to discussing how we seeGod as a secure base.
So to answer the question, ifGod is my secure base, then why
(04:26):
do I still feel anxious oravoidant with him?
And maybe one of the questionsthat we can start with, or one
of the statements that we canstart with, is we've all heard
the concept or the teaching thatGod is always with you, which is
true, right?
God is always with us.
And but oftentimes we don't feelthat way.
We don't feel that he's close tous.
(04:47):
So again, for the anxious, it'sgonna be this idea of, well,
because I did something wrong,then God is not gonna be close
to me.
He's actually gonna push me awaybecause I've failed him, right?
Uh for the avoidantness, I justdon't know what it is that it
actually feels like.
I don't know if he's close or ifhe's far.
I don't know.
They can't really identifywhether or not God is close to
(05:08):
them.
So what happens is that they'rethey do become or they start to
feel uh distant, disappointed,um, and really don't know how
God views them.
Right?
In the research, one of the waysthat this is described, and I've
talked about this before, is youhave the God concept, which is
what you know about God, andthen you have the God image,
(05:31):
which is how you experience God.
And there's different types ofpeople that are going to lean
one way or the other, okay?
Uh, both of these elements areessential, both having a God
image, which is the experienceof God, and a God concept, which
is our knowledge of God.
So they're both important,right?
(05:52):
There's gonna be some people whofocus more on the experience,
and there's gonna be anothergroup of people who focus more
on the knowledge of God, right?
And both of those are okay,right?
I tend to be more from theknowledge perspective, like if I
know more about God, I feelcloser to him because I'm
learning more about him and Ikeep learning new things.
(06:14):
And it wasn't until maybe Iwouldn't say just a couple of
years ago, but many years ago,where I started to have uh
experience God differently,meaning I had emotions about my
relationship with God, which Ididn't have before.
Like I felt the knowledge wasenough.
I felt like if I had enoughdata, enough facts, enough
verses that I memorized, thatthat would be enough.
(06:36):
So I felt close to God in thatway.
But there was really no emotionattached to that.
And again, I think that'simportant.
So for those of you guys who arelistening who tend to be more
logical based, for you, thatmight be what feels comfortable.
But if you don't are not feelinganything in your relationship
with God, then I think thatcould be uh a sign of trouble in
(06:58):
a sense, or not having the fullum understanding of who God is.
And obviously we we have limitedunderstanding, but I'm trying to
say that you broaden yourexperience and your relationship
with God by having thoseemotions attached to it.
For example, one of the emotionsthat you can have is
disappointment, right?
There are times where we've beendisappointed with God.
I I felt that way before.
(07:19):
I'm sure many of you have feltthat way.
And the question is so is itokay for me to feel
disappointed?
And you might initially kind ofshame yourself, like, why am I
feeling disappointed?
You know, the Lord is faithful,he's just, he's kind, he's all
of these things.
But right now, I don't feel thatway.
I feel like this is unjust,what's happening, right?
(07:40):
It's okay to express thosefeelings, and I think that's
that was missing when I wasgrowing up, is that I felt that
because I knew that God wasfaithful, just, and righteous,
that my feelings wouldeventually align with that.
And that wasn't the case, andthat was part of my my struggle
is that how does this knowledgethat I have about God, how come
(08:02):
my feelings aren't lining upwith that?
Like I know he's faithful, but Idon't feel that way.
I feel like this is very unjust,that this is very wrong.
Like, why, why aren't you here,Lord?
I felt him distant.
So allowing myself to experiencethough that disappointment and
that frustration and maybe evenanger at times was healthy
because it showed me, wow, Ifeel this anger, I feel this
(08:25):
disappointment, even a littlebit of uh of bitterness.
But I feel like God is closereven during this time.
And that was hard for me tounderstand because again, if I'm
not honoring God, or if I'm notletting God use this experience
to actually teach me something,then I must be doing something
(08:46):
wrong.
If I wasn't learning anything,then it must be because I'm
doing something wrong.
And what I learned is that thatGod was kind of the sounding
board for me to air out thesefrustrations.
You know, obviously we see thisin the Psalms, all over the
Psalms and over through thescriptures as well, that there
are these moments where manypeople in the scriptures express
(09:06):
disappointment or confusion oreven anxiety about God and what
he's doing and so on.
So I realized that it was a veryimportant part of our
relationship and experience withGod.
So this is again totally normalto be able to lean on one side
or the other, but what we wantto have is a good balance of
(09:27):
both.
Understanding that you're gonnahave a tendency to lean towards
one more than the other.
So that's important.
You know, the attachmentresearch basically teaches that
people often map their earlycaregiver experiences onto God.
So when theology says that Godis faithful, the inconsistency
really comes with how our bodiesexperience that.
(09:48):
Again, it's it's important tohave the knowledge of God.
And if you grew up in a homethat was dysfunctional and was
aggressive or abusive in manyways, your body records all of
that, right?
And when you get older and youhave these same thoughts of God
being faithful, and let's sayyou grew up in a home where
(10:11):
maybe that was taught, or maybethat was said, but the
experience maybe it was thatyour parents were always
fighting, or it was that theywere very aggressive towards
you, or that they justmisunderstood everything that
you'd say, or you'd get introuble for nothing, or there
was always discipline, but nolove.
All of these things, right, canbe very confusing for you to
(10:32):
experience as a child.
So when you get older and yousee these things start to happen
again, your mind is trying tocounter the beliefs that you had
at that time with biblicaltruth.
But your body is saying, No, butyou've heard that before, and
you actually were scared andhurt and disappointed.
So there's a disconnect here,right?
(10:54):
So that's very, very importantto understand because again,
you're gonna experience that ifyou grew up in a home that was
not um evidenced what you'vebeen taught about who God is and
who Jesus is.
Okay.
So if there's a disconnectthere, your body's gonna feel
off, even though your mind'sgonna try to reconcile those
two.
(11:14):
But you have to pay attention towhat that could actually mean,
right?
The anxious attachment to Godshows up as a preoccupation with
being rejected by God andoverreading negative negative
events as signs of hisdispleasure or of his
discipline.
And that is really what theanxious attachment style is
looking at.
(11:34):
If they're going throughsomething difficult, they will
think to themselves, This is Godpunishing me.
I must have done something wrongto deserve this.
Why is God upset at me?
What did I do to deserve this?
Oh, that's what I did.
Oh, this must be a punishment, apunishment from way back when
when I failed God in thissituation.
Right.
So that's where the anxiousattachment style goes.
(11:57):
They start to think of all thepossibilities of why they're
being disciplined by God.
Because if God is good, then Ishouldn't be experiencing these
things.
But because I am experiencingthese things, then I must have
done something bad, right?
If you've listened to previousepisodes, one of the things that
I talk about a lot is the viewof self and the view of others,
part of the attachment styles.
And God attachment is the viewof self and the view of God.
(12:20):
So in this case, I'm worthless,I'm nothing, everything's my
fault, I failed, all of thosethings.
And God obviously is just,righteous, and good.
That belief is good.
The view of self, thoughnegative, again, that's where
the anxious attachment style umsits, and everything is their
fault.
So it doesn't allow for them toactually experience the grace
(12:42):
and love and forgiveness of God.
So that's really where theanxious attachment style will
remain.
So there is for the avoidantthis over-reliance on self and
discomfort with intimacy andprayer.
And that was really that thatwas really interesting too,
because again, there is thiselement of, you know, I'll go to
(13:07):
church and you know, I'll singthe songs, I'll be in community
with other people, with otherChristians.
And then after that, I'm I'm I'mgone, right?
Um, prayer in and of itself is avery intimate relationship,
communication that we have withGod, not just of what's going on
in our day, but you know, how isGod showing up in the situation
(13:29):
that that I'm in?
It doesn't have to be bad allthe time, it could be good.
Um, and maybe that's what weneed to focus on.
We think that if we focus on thegood, then obviously everything
that we're doing is good.
At least that's what we think.
Um, and if something happensthat's bad, what the avoidant
will do is okay, this is myfault.
I'm gonna take ownership and I'mjust gonna fix this and correct
(13:51):
it, right?
No dependence on God, overdependence on self, if that
makes sense, right?
So, as opposed to the anxiousattachment who says it's my
fault, I need to make this up,and they work even harder to
gain back the Lord's favor.
The avoidant attachment stylewill look at the situation and
say, you know what?
I gotta take care of this, Igotta fix this.
(14:11):
You know, obviously, myrelationship with God matters.
So I'm gonna do what I can tomake this right.
And in their eyes, it's allwithin their power that they're
able to make the changes to feelbetter about themselves, not
necessarily about theirrelationship with God.
So that's how you see theseattachment styles kind of play
(14:32):
out.
And by the way, scriptureacknowledges each of these
things that people can believein God intellectually while
feeling abandoned and afraid,right?
We have David uh in Psalm 13 andPsalm 42.
Um, we see in scripture allthroughout it, we see how God
reveals himself as someone whois near the brokenhearted, and
(14:54):
that's in Psalm 34, verse 18.
God also says, I will neverleave you nor forsake you.
That's in Hebrews 13.
And there is this ongoingmessage again about God's
presence in our lives, which isagain true.
The question is how the avoidantand the anxious interpret that
(15:14):
in their own relationship withwith the Lord, right?
So it's very important that wepay attention to those things
because you're gonna land on oneof these things.
I assume that most people aregonna be on the anxious
attachment style.
Um, avoidance typically, I mean,they're harder to to identify,
especially within within therelationship with God or with
(15:36):
the church, um, because we justlook at people who leave the
church and that's avoidant.
And that's not necessarily thecase.
It could be, but not necessarilythe case.
So here's what we need tounderstand about this question
about why do I still feelanxious or avoidant?
Well, one of the things that weneed to understand is that
healing takes time.
(15:57):
And when we feel distant fromthe Lord, we may think that, oh,
I'm not healing because I stillfeel distant from the Lord.
But sometimes, remember, you'regoing through a difficult
situation.
We don't know what the timelineis on that difficult situation.
I wish I did.
Um, and if I did, would thatmake me cling to God a little
(16:19):
bit more, or would it push meaway?
Like what would happen if I knewwhat the timeline was?
Right?
So we need to understand thatwhen we feel distant or that God
is distant or has abandoned us,that maybe it's a time where
we're just reflecting on youknow who he is in that moment.
(16:40):
Maybe we need that, right?
Um, so as we start to allow Godto heal us with time, then we
start to grow our dependence onhim more and more.
So we need continued experiencesof him responding in safe ways,
which is what I experienced.
When you have multiplesituations where it feels like
(17:03):
everything in your life has justbroken down and it's a
disappointment, and you don'tknow what to do, and you just
feel abandoned, you feel alone,right?
It's in those moments where Godstarts to speak to you, and the
way that we create a safe andsecure attachment to God is that
we see, as we I've said before,the rupture, which is the
(17:25):
disappointment, the despair, thediscouragement, the depression,
whatever it is.
And then you see God show up.
And if you see that enoughtimes, you start to develop a
secure attachment to God.
Like, hey, God's gonna show uplike He's done many times
before.
I know this is very hard whatI'm experiencing right now, but
because of the many times thatGod has shown up, I know that
(17:48):
it's gonna happen again, right?
So that's the security.
It's not that the pain isremoved right away, it's that
you know that after the pain,that God is still going to love,
care, and be there for you.
So that is the first question.
Uh, second question (18:04):
how do my early attachment wounds affect
how I relate to God?
Well, for the insecureattachment style, there's kind
of three factors that that weneed to pay attention to that
they've probably experienced intheir early childhood.
Um, neglect, inconsistency, andemotional unavailability.
(18:27):
Okay.
Neglect, inconsistency,emotional unavailability.
So when they experience this intheir relationship, think think
what happens in the relationshipwith their parents or primary
caregivers when they get olderand they have these feelings
come up, it's natural totransfer those same feelings
over to God, like, oh, the Lordis neglecting me, or he's being
(18:51):
inconsistent.
Because last time I prayed aboutthis and he answered it in the
positive, and now it doesn'tseem like it's working, right?
So we say, Well, maybe I need topray more, so I'm gonna keep
praying more, keep praying more.
Maybe I need to go preach thegospel more.
So they go and preach thegospel, maybe I need to be
around church people more, andthey go and do that as well.
So they're trying to find waysto build a secure attachment
(19:14):
with God.
And what they think in theirmind is that if things are
working out my way, then thatmeans the Lord is being there
for me.
If they're not working out, thenthat means I'm doing something
wrong.
Right.
And again, that comes from thisidea of I need to establish, I
need to do more in order for meto be valuable enough for the
(19:36):
Lord to be consistent, for himto be emotionally present, and
for him to be um uh a securebase for me.
Right.
So on the other side, for theavoidant attachment, they're
gonna have experiences of theywill have some neglect, um, and
specifically regarding needs.
(19:57):
So again, the avoidant learnshow to meet their own needs.
Because their needs weren't metwhen they were younger.
So when it comes to relationshipwith the Lord, like they can ask
for things, but they're notgoing to go deep dive in it
because they still have thisalmost this moral
responsibility, moralresponsibility to do things, do
things on their own to meettheir own needs.
(20:19):
So they don't really want tofully depend on God, but just
enough so that it sounds likethey are depending on God.
And that's really important tounderstand because people who
grew up with harsh,unpredictable caregivers often
picture God as stern, easilydisappointed, or emotionally
distant.
(20:40):
Right.
So again, the parents I thinkthat this is one of the reasons
why the family is so important.
Um, it really does create thepicture of us of what the church
looks like and what ourrelationship with God looks
like, right?
We have our parents who are tomodel for us, what love, care,
discipline, um uh emotionalattunement, presence, all of
(21:05):
these things that they'resupposed to model that for us.
And when that doesn't happen, wehave we begin to develop a
distorted view of God.
Now, this is very important toobecause there are a lot of
people that I know who grew upwho didn't grow up in the
church.
They came to know the Lord lateron.
So they actually develop a verysecure attachment to God because
of so much chaos and so muchdistress when they were uh
(21:28):
growing up that they didn't knowanything different.
So they come to know the Lord,and it's like the best thing
that they've ever umexperienced, whether it be
through the church or as they'relearning through scripture,
learning more about God'scharacter.
Wow, this is who Jesus is.
Wow, that's amazing! Like, Ididn't know he loved me so much.
I didn't know he died for me onthe cross, I didn't know all of
(21:48):
these things.
And they come to know the Lordin a very special, meaningful
way.
And I'm not saying that those ofus who did grow up in the church
don't have that, but I thinkthere's a point where we take it
for granted.
I think there's a point where,yeah, I'm a Christian, you know,
I grew up in the church and wehave all the knowledge, at least
that's that's how I was.
But like I had all theknowledge, I knew how to um talk
(22:11):
about what that relationshipwith the Lord could look like
without the experience.
Like, what does it really feellike to be close to God, close
to Jesus in a relationship?
So um I knew what to say, but Ididn't actually have that close
relationship relationship withthe Lord.
And I think many of us who grewup in the church have that
(22:32):
experience.
So those who didn't grow up inthe church, they have what would
be called the um compensationtheory, which is for everything
that they lacked growing up, theLord compensates for that
through relationship with Him,through the church, and through
His Word, through prayer and soon.
Right.
So God compensates for what theywere lacking in their childhood.
(22:55):
For those of us who grew up inthe church, we have what's
called the correspondencetheory, which is the way that
our parents treated us andreflected um Christ in the home,
is how we grew up seeing ourrelationship with Jesus when we
get older.
So we see a lot of these um uhverses that talk about God being
(23:17):
a father, right?
Him being a shepherd, him caringfor us in that way.
So again, these pictures thatwe're seeing of okay, here's how
my parents treated me, andhere's what the Bible says about
God being a comforter and like ashepherd and like a father, and
there's a disconnect somewhere,right?
So that disconnects thatdisconnect is obviously gonna
(23:39):
affect how we relate to God andalso how we view God, right?
So, how do we then relate to Godif we had a good upbringing?
Well, it's gonna be the same waythat you relate to your parents,
right?
If you grew up with loving,caring, attentive, faithful
parents, you probably have agood relationship with them.
Uh, and you probably know how totalk about your day, right?
(24:01):
Know how to talk about youremotions, know how to talk about
some beliefs and thoughts thatyou've had as you've grown up,
because they provided a spacefor you to just share
everything, right?
And if you have that, that'sgreat because then you can
transfer that over to yourrelationship with God.
And probably most of you whohave that probably do that
already.
For those who had a more maybeanxiously attached style where
(24:22):
it was inconsistent.
Um, maybe at times it was um uhsometimes your needs were met
and sometimes they weren't, orthey weren't met correctly,
right?
Even though your parents triedas hard as they could, there's
this belief that maybe God can'tmeet all our needs, or maybe I'm
just too much.
Maybe that's why we feel like wehave to work for God's love.
So they start doing that andthey get so involved in the
(24:44):
church, they start doing all ofthese things, all these all of
these activities, hoping thatthat will bring them closer to
God.
And in some ways it does, and inother ways it doesn't, right?
Again, the main thing to keep inmind here is that the anxiously
attached individual believesthat if they do those things,
God will accept them and Godwill love them.
God already loves them, Godalready accepts them.
(25:06):
It's just those things should bea natural outgrowth of our
relationship with Him.
So there's a lot of work thatgets done there.
Now, for this last question, ifGod loves me, this is question
three, if God loves me, why doesHe feel so distant?
Especially when I'm actuallygoing to church and doing the
right things.
(25:26):
Okay, so this is this is very uhsimilar to the first one, but I
wanted to talk about it becauseit focuses on this idea of doing
the right things.
Again, those of us who grew upin the church, we knew what to
do, we knew what to say.
And in many ways, the ourparents and people around us
looked at that and said, Oh,they they love the Lord, they
(25:47):
must be growing in theirrelationship with the Lord.
But we just grew up kind ofknowing what to say, and I think
that's normal.
I I don't think that there's away to get around that.
Like, I mean, I have my kids,I'm teaching them about Jesus,
and they're gonna say and dowhatever I'm teaching them,
right?
And um, and that's gonna benormal.
Now they're gonna reach a pointwhere they're gonna have
(26:08):
questions.
And can I provide a safe spacefor them to ask those questions
and not get defensive or feellike they're falling away
because they're starting tocreate their own um minds or
have their own minds and havequestions?
Like I can't let that scare me.
I have to be very firm in mybeliefs and my convictions about
what I believe about scriptureand what I believe about Jesus
(26:30):
so that I can pass that on tothem.
And when they have questions,that I can ref refer them back
to scripture so that they cancontinue to explore what that
means for them.
I'm not saying it's gonna beeasy.
I actually think it's gonna bepretty hard for me, but I'm
hoping that the Lord gives mesome grace so that they don't
experience what I experiencedgrowing up, or it was I knew the
(26:51):
things about God, but I didn'thave that relationship with Him.
And I'm trying to reallydemonstrate that to my boys that
it's not just the that they knowabout me, but that they also
have um this relationship withme where they feel comfortable
to talk about these variousthings in their lives.
So um that is what I plan to dowith them because what happens
(27:15):
with Christians who grew up inthe church, they experience this
painful dissonance, right?
That regular spiritual practicesand attent to and attendance to
church, to church activitiesshould draw me closer to the
Lord.
So if they're doing all of thosethings, they may falsely believe
that that is that automaticallymeans that they're closer to the
Lord.
(27:36):
But remember, there are manytimes where we can be doing the
right thing, but our hearts canstill be far away from God.
I mean, this was the error ofthe Pharisees and Sadducees,
right?
They were doing all the rightthings, but their hearts were
far from the Lord, and he callsthem out on that, right?
So there's some research thattalks about this struggle with
(27:57):
with understanding God, and theresearch calls it divine
struggles, and suggests thatfeeling abandoned or punished by
God, even when one isreligiously active, predicts
more depressive symptoms andoverall distress, and definitely
have seen that, right?
That the idea of if there'ssomething happening negatively
in my life or negative in mylife, that I'm being punished by
(28:20):
God.
And because I'm being punishedby God, the creator of the
world, the person who I'msupposed to call father, the
person who is supposed to loveand care for me, if I am feeling
punished or abandoned by him,then that's gonna create in me a
sense of I'm doing somethingwrong, or the way that I'm
feeling doesn't make sense.
I shouldn't be feeling thesethings, because if God is all of
(28:43):
these things for me, then what'swrong with me?
Right?
There's something off here.
And I can't blame God becausehe's perfect, so it must be me.
And there is a humanity part tothat, right?
That this is the effects of sinin our lives.
Original sin, right?
Sin that we're born with, but itcan also be when we look back at
(29:06):
our lives and we see sins thatwe've done and we feel that
we're being punished for thosesins.
Now, does God actually operatethat way?
And I have this is one of thequestions I'm gonna ask for one
of these, um uh one of myguests.
Is does God operate that way?
We know that God punishes hischildren to correct them, to
bring them back into rightalignment with him, right?
(29:27):
We we see that in scripture, Ithink it's in Hebrews.
Um, and we see, I mean, we seewith the children of Israel all
throughout the Old Testament,right?
He's constantly correcting thembecause they're going off track.
So we do see that.
Um, but does he always punish usfor things from our past, or is
it only things in the present,or is it just a natural
(29:49):
consequence of living our dailylife, right?
Just sin in the world.
So it could be a variety ofthings, but that's one of the
questions I want to explore withuh with this with this guest.
So uh that when we have thesethese um religious doubts,
right?
After uh and for feelingdepressed, uh, like I shouldn't
(30:10):
be feeling this way in arelationship with the Lord, um,
obviously it can cause more uhuh dysfunction, depression,
anxiety in a relationship withhim.
However, secure attachment toGod is associated with more
engaged participation incongregational life and a
greater sense of belonging andspiritual vitality.
So when we do have a securerelationship with God, when we
(30:33):
see him as good and we see thework that he's doing in our
lives, and we are drawing closerto him, there is this desire of
wanting to know him more throughreading his word, through
prayer, and through seeking outcommunity, right?
That it brings back thisvitality.
And this is what I mean forthose who did not grow up in the
church, when they come to knowthe Lord, they experience all of
these good things for the firsttime in their life that they
(30:54):
learn to appreciate it and theythey draw closer to God because
of it.
Like they see God as a safehaven, as a secure base, right?
And for us who grew up in thechurch, I think we we kind of
become numb at some point and westart to ask all these
questions, which creates somelevels of distress, which pulls
us back a little bit.
But then we start to realize no,what I've been taught was good,
(31:15):
and this does align withscripture, and now I'm just
experiencing something differentthat I didn't know before,
right?
Um, scripture normalizes theseseasons when God feels hidden.
And by the way, I have a friend,um, Dr.
Josh Waltman.
He actually has a book calledWhy Does God Seem So Hidden?
And you can read to learn moreabout this.
I think we talked about it alittle bit in an episode a long,
(31:37):
long time ago.
But if you're interested, that'sone book that you that you want
to get.
Really smart guy, really greatguy, and I'm sure he has a lot
to say.
And I hope to have him back onthe show as well.
So, his covenant love, hissteadfast attachment.
So let's think about that.
Just God as a secure base, hissecure attachment to us and us
(31:57):
to him, provides in us theability to seek him out during
difficult times, right?
You want to learn about aperson, who do they turn to?
What do they turn to when theyare under stress?
And this is where you start tosee that secure base, that
rupture repair process wherethere's a rupture, the repair is
where do I go?
Um, I always talk about this.
(32:18):
I think I've said this before,where we all have our Peter
moment, right?
Uh, this is the moment whenJesus was healing and doing
miracles and teaching.
And there came a point where thepeople stopped following.
They they start to pull away andleave.
And Jesus looks over to his owndisciples, the 12, and he says,
(32:40):
Uh, would are you guys going toleave me as well?
And Peter makes the most umremarkable comment that he can
make, which was to say, Um,Lord, who do we turn to?
You have the words of eternallife, basically saying, We're
not going anywhere.
You are our secure base.
There's nothing else that wehave to turn to that's gonna
(33:03):
give us the security that youhave given us.
Security both for salvationthrough him, and also just the
life that he's given.
I mean, he gave them a new life,and after that, obviously, they
were willing to die for theirbelief in him.
Um, and there's a whole story,there's so much more beyond
that.
But um, yeah, this is this isvery important as we see all of
(33:26):
these examples in scripture ofhow God is seen as a secure
base.
So just because you're doing theright things doesn't
automatically mean that you'regonna be closer to Jesus, right?
We do those things out of anoutgrowth of our love for him,
but they are not necessarilythings that will automatically
(33:47):
move us closer to him, right?
Again, similar to the Pharisees,you can be doing all the right
things and still feel far fromthe Lord.
Believers are called not only toindividual practices, but to
embody life in the church whereChrist's presence is promised in
gathered community.
So, again, I preach on this allthe time, right?
(34:09):
Scripture, prayer, Christiancommunity.
If you have those three things,those three things are
contributing to yourrelationship with the Lord, and
they all have a differentfunction or a same goal, but
function differently.
They each provide somethingdifferent.
So prayer, that conversationwith God, where you're not just
(34:30):
talking to God and saying,Here's all the things that I
want, where which some peopledo, they just treat God as a
genie.
But it's this relationship, likenot asking necessarily how your
day is, but being able to hearwhat God has to say as a father.
Like I have three boys, andthere are times where I'm trying
to share something with them,and they'll try to interrupt.
I'm like, hey, wait, wait, wait.
I'm trying to teach yousomething.
(34:52):
Uh with my oldest, I was tryingto teach him how to throw
football, and I was telling himall the little details about
here's how you hold it, and soon.
And he said, Okay, okay, I gotit.
No, no, no, you don't got it.
Wait, let me teach you.
You have to grab it like this,and he he calmed down, got
patient, and so on.
Right.
And I think sometimes we we dothat with the Lord, where, yeah,
Lord, I've heard this many, manytimes before.
(35:12):
You don't need to tell me aboutthis again.
Patience.
Let me teach you.
You're going through this rightnow.
Let me show you how I work, howI operate.
Here's my how I uh I'm gonnashow you my love, my grace
through this experience.
And it's very, it's verycomforting to see someone who
cares about you so much thatthey're willing to take the time
(35:33):
to be patient with us as we aswe grow, right?
I love my sons a ton.
And based off of that love, Ican be patient with them when I
see that they're trying to rushthrough things or they're not
really paying attention.
It's not this frustration withthem.
I can be frustrated with them attimes, but for the most part, I
think I understand their age andhow I was as a kid as well.
(35:56):
And I think the Lord understandsour humanity as well and
continues to be patient with usthrough our life.
So in attachment language, Godoften mediates his nearness
through the body of Christ.
Safe, nurturing relationships inthe church can become relational
conduits through which God'spresence is experienced,
gradually softening insecureinternal models of God.
(36:18):
So, this final point here aboutthe reason why community is so
important is because the Bible,especially in the New Testament,
makes a lot of emphasis on theimportance of community, the
importance of the church.
And what I will say is know thatyou can't grow in your Christian
walk if you're not in community.
Like that is a requirement in asense.
(36:41):
And I don't say it's so you cansit note it and say, okay,
there's something I have to do.
It is a natural thing that theChristian should want to do.
And if you don't want to gathertogether with other believers,
if you don't go to churchregularly, if you're not meeting
with other believers, then I cansay that there's something off
there because that is somethingthat we naturally want.
(37:02):
Now you might say I'm anintrovert, I'm an introvert as
well.
That doesn't remove the desireto want to gather together with
other believers, right?
There are moments in life wherewe're busy and we're doing
things and everyone's indifferent stages of life.
Totally get that.
What I'm referring to is nothaving the desire to gather
together with other believers,right?
(37:24):
Almost rejecting wanting to gettogether with other believers,
right?
We should look foropportunities.
Now, everyone has a different umenergy system, meaning, like if
you're extrovert, introvert,whatever the case is.
I again, I get all of that.
For me, what I'm asking is asyou reflect on your relationship
with the Lord, is what is yourrelationship towards the church,
(37:45):
towards community like?
Do you want it?
Do you see purpose for it,right?
Iron sharpens iron.
This idea of if you're aroundother believers, you're going to
continue to grow because they'regoing to expose things or
they're going to sharpen areasof your life that you may not
fully be aware of.
So that's why we need communityto make us aware of those things
for accountability, forChristian growth, and so on.
(38:06):
So all of those things areextremely important for you to
grow in your walk with Christ.
All right, man, I felt like Icovered so much today.
Um, so yeah, so those were thethree questions for today, guys.
Hopefully you found thathelpful.
Um, next week I'll do a part twoand answer the next couple of
questions.
But as always, thank you againfor tuning into the episode.
(38:27):
Um feel free to share this withyour friends, other people who
may benefit from this.
Again, attachment.
I love talking about thisbecause it seems like there's a
lot of people who are interestedin it and only see it in their
relationship with other people,but they don't see it and how it
applies in their relationshipwith God.
So hopefully I'm opening someroom for you to have those type
of conversations and we'll seehow it goes moving forward.
(38:48):
Thanks for tuning in.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.
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