May 27, 2024 • 44 mins
If you had to sum up the ministry of Jesus, it would include three features: teaching, exorcising demons and healing! As followers of Jesus and recipients of his Spirit, the church should also be known for healing. But how does it work, and what role does the Spirit’s voice have to play?
In this episode of the God Conversations podcast, we talk with Kirk Delaney, Pastor of Pine Rivers Vineyard Church in Brisbane Queensland, Director of the Australian Vineyard Churches and a follower of Jesus who is experienced in hearing God’s voice for healing.
You’ll hear about:
- Kirk’s initial attraction to the Vineyard movement that came about because they were not just concerned with moral and spiritual transformation, but in partnering with the Holy Spirit to do the empowering works of Jesus, including healing the sick and casting out demons.
“My question was, why are signs and wonders happening in the Majority world but not in the West?”
- The first major healing Kirk witnessed when the Holy Spirit fell on a woman with a pronounced curvature of the spine and a large protrusion on one of her shoulders. Over 45 mins of prayer, Kirk watched as her leg grew, her spine straightened and the bump on her shoulder disappeared like a deflating balloon. Kirk’s response was, “God, I don’t know you, do I?!”
- The connection between compassion and the the healing ministry of Jesus. Holy Spirit speaks to move us with love for hurting people in the manner of Jesus.
- The mandate on every person to continue Jesus’ ministry of healing. Everyone has authorisation to engage – not just the “super healers” on stage!
“Everyone gets to do the work of Jesus!”
- The first time Kirk stepped out in hearing God’s voice and healing, involving an unusual story of a woman who had recently lost her husband and was suffering from an arthritic pinkie finger. Kirk explains how we hear God through all the senses – feeling, seeing, hearing – as God draws our attention to something in another person.
“God I know you want to talk to me about healing for someone, but my right pinkie finger is really throbbing!”
- Advice for starting out: start simply – ask God, “is there anyone here on your heart that you would like to touch with your love today?”
- Kirk’s thoughts on why healing doesn’t always happen.
Next Steps
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About Kirk Delaney
Kirk is married to Nichole and they have three young adult children and a new son-in-law. Together they pastor the Pine Rivers Vineyard Church in Brisbane and serve as the national directors of Vineyard Churches Australia (https://vineyard.org.au/). Kirk has been serving in local church ministry for 30 years and has a big heart to see God’s people equipped for living the message, ministry and mission of Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
Let me ask you that question. What does God.
Mother Teresa. Someone asked her when it's got
to speak to you and she said whenever he wants.
So essentially the Bible is a collection of God conversations
if you. Like I had a vision of a car
accident and I'm sitting on the couch thinking why have I just
(00:21):
seen this? How could I know if God was
speaking to me? And how could I know that that
dream or that thought was actually just me thinking about,
I have said some bad beat. Jesus said we'd recognise his
voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation. If you had to sum up the
(00:42):
ministry of Jesus, it would include three key features,
teaching, exercising demons and healing.
As followers of Jesus and recipients of his spirit, the
church should also be known for healing.
But how does it work and what role does the spirits voice have
to play? Hi and welcome to the God
(01:03):
Conversations podcast. My name is Tanya Harris and I'm
a pastor, practical theologian, author, and the founding
director of God Conversations, aministry that equips you to
recognise and respond to God's voice.
Well, welcome to the show Today,those who are new and those who
are our regulars, I'm super excited about this topic.
(01:26):
We're talking all things Holy Spirit and healing.
We're talking to someone who is not just knows about it, but
practises it regularly. And we're very honoured to have
him on the show. But before we go into the show
itself, I just would love to share some good news.
There's always something going on at God Conversations, and
(01:47):
just this week we received a copy of my brand new book.
It's a academic book, so it's a little bit different than the
others and has a very long title, Hearing God's Voice
Towards a Theology of Contemporary Pentecostal
Revelatory Experience. Yeah, in academic world, in the
(02:09):
academic world, you do use a lotof words.
So I'm excited to share that with you, Not because you might
want to go out and buy it, you might.
But one of the strategies we have here at God Conversations
is to bring this message of hearing the voice of the Spirit.
Spirit LED discipleship, what itlooks like to have God's Kingdom
brought from heaven to earth to the global church to the world.
(02:33):
And part of our strategy is to really reach out to the academic
world. If you think about where do we
get our ideas from? Well, kind of in the Christian
Church, we get them from two places, kind of grassroots
level, the experience that we have as everyday Christians
experiencing the Spirit for ourselves.
But then we also get our understandings from books, don't
(02:54):
we? We or from preachers.
And we think about where do theyget their Ender's understandings
from? Well, they often get trained in
a seminary or a Bible college. And where do they get their
understandings from? Well, from the academics, the
researchers, the people who write the textbooks.
So we figured, hey, we need to give some time to really bring
the message of God conversationsto the academic world.
(03:15):
So this book is aiming to do that.
It's basically a rewrite of my PhD thesis.
And one of the big findings, if you've heard me talk about it
before, was that this topic in the academic world is virtually
absent, at least in the Protestant world.
There's a little bit out on the gift of prophecy, but not on the
(03:36):
direct experience of hearing God's voice for yourself.
So we feel that this is super, super strategic and important as
well. So whether you know someone or
perhaps you are an academic and you want to learn more, you can
access that book. But can you pray with us?
Just that the messaging gets outand reaches into Bible colleges,
(03:58):
universities and seminaries and really helps people to
articulate what they're experiencing.
You know, our understandings of God come from our own
experiences, but then we interpret them in the teaching
that we're given. And hopefully this book will
help people to be able to clearly articulate what God is
doing and pass on to others, butalso to kind of prevent some of
(04:21):
the issues and the problems thatwe have in this area.
So that's our latest news. It's exciting stuff.
So celebrate with us, but let meintroduce you to our topic today
all around the Holy Spirit and healing.
And we're talking to someone whoknows a lot about this topic.
He is also a pastor of a local church in Queensland, Australia.
(04:44):
And he is the national director of the Vineyard Movement here in
this country as well. I met him recently, his name is
Kirk Delaney. Welcome to the show, Kirk.
It's so fabulous to have you with us.
We met for the first time, I think it was a couple months ago
in New Zealand, was it? Yeah, that's right.
(05:05):
So January, it was a nice start to the year to go to New
Zealand, to the new Wine Conference.
It was, it was fabulous. I was laughing with some friends
of mine. Actually, someone had noted on
my Facebook feed that I was at the new wine conference and a
friend said, umm, Tanya, you speaking out of wine conference?
OK, can I come? But Kirk, it's great to have
(05:29):
you. You, as I mentioned in the
introduction, you are the leaderof the vineyard movement in
Australia. Everyone may know what that
stream of church is. So perhaps you can give us a
little bit of a background of the vineyard as well as a bit of
an intro to yourself. So hey, first, thanks for having
(05:50):
me on on your programme. It's a real treat to be with you
and share a little bit of story to some of the questions around
here in God. So love to be a part of that
conversation. So thanks for having me.
Vineyard Churches Australia. We've been in Australia since
1995 and we've had a number of hills and valleys in terms of
(06:16):
becoming a church planting movement here in the country
over the years. And obviously we streamed
directly out of the Vineyard movement, out of the USA
historically and John Wimber andall of the reality that came
with John in terms of Kingdom theology and in terms of being
(06:40):
practitioners of the ministry ofJesus in the power of the Holy
Spirit and so. I remember I reading Don
Wimber's book, What was the one that he wrote about the power of
the spirit number of years ago. Yeah, yeah.
So his original ones were power healing and power evangelism.
Yeah. Looking at the context of the
(07:03):
role of the spirit in in missionand seeing the Kingdom come and
particularly with signs and wonders.
And he was looking at it from the perspective of why is it
happening in in many other nations other than in western
developed nations. And so he went that took him on
a journey of figuring out what asigns and wonders look like in a
(07:25):
western context. And so, so that was John's
journey. And for us here in Australia,
we, my wife Nicole and I, we have, we are the second
generation national directors ofthe Vineyard movement here in
Australia. We have been leading the
movement now for eight years andwe are also pretty much where
(07:51):
local church pastors firstly. So we hold this dual role.
We passed the locally and we lead lead nationally as well.
So it keeps us rather busy and focused in many directions at
the one time. I bet it does.
But just a little bit of background on me.
I grew up in a Christian context, a Christian home.
(08:15):
My mom and dad are at various stages in their their life while
we were children growing up had different seasons of being
involved in local church. But my mum in particular, she
was always a person of prayer and I still have memories as a
little kid when my mum would have some local Catholic nuns
(08:41):
would come and pray with her at our house when I was a little
kid. So mum's always been like prayer
and also then she would also then welcome women who were
exiting prison and trying to reengage in, in social life
(09:01):
again. And mum would be a, a place for
women to come to, to help them sort of reengage with life again
back in the community. And so prayer, mercy, those
crazy things are a big part of my story.
I was kind of soaked in it before I realised I even was
(09:21):
soaked in it. And then probably it was
probably when I was about. So went to church, grew up in
church, heard the reality of theneed for Jesus in my life as a,
as a king, as a Lord, as a saviour.
And, and then that happened for me rather dramatically when I
(09:45):
was 19 years of age. And at not long after meeting
Jesus in a rather dynamic way, Ireally felt him calling me to be
involved in local church ministry.
And so went on the journey and did my studies, my theological
studies and was appointed in ministry in that at that time,
(10:10):
the Uniting Church. And, and then while that was
happening, my parents were involved with discovering the
Vineyard movement and they wouldsend me their materials.
I would read the materials and then eventually we, Nicole and
I, encountered a couple of Vineyard people through some
(10:31):
conferences that the Vineyard was running in Australia in the
mid to late 90s. And as a result of that, our
life kind of got turned upside down and inside out.
And we realised that God had puta real longing in us to be
people who do what Jesus did andunderstand what it meant to not
(10:56):
just live with the person or thespirit giving you moral and
spiritual transformation internally and, and, and forming
you into, you know, someone thatlooks like Jesus.
But then also learning to partner with the Holy Spirit to
enact the empowering works of Jesus, healing the sick, casting
(11:19):
out demons and the like. And so so we went on that
journey and ended up in the vineyard and, and here we are.
And I think that's one of the huge strengths of the Vineyard
Church around the world as well,that you are known for your
works and the spirit and, you know, meeting you in January and
(11:42):
just observing your ministry. I love the emphasis on healing
because obviously we know that Jesus did acts of healing.
In fact, that's what he's known for acts of healing and
exercising demons and teaching, but mostly that was what he was
known for. And so therefore, if we have the
spirit, then the spirit calls usto, to do the same.
(12:06):
So the Christian, the normal Christian life, the normal, it
look like that. And I, I love that.
And I think that's something that your church movement is
such a strength to bring to the church that perhaps has been, I
don't know, it ebbs and flows, doesn't it?
I, I wondered if we were to do asurvey of a bunch of Christians,
(12:26):
when did you last pray for someone to be healed?
You know, so, so talk to me about at God conversations.
We're all about hearing the voice of God, following it,
recognising it. What is the connection, then, in
your experience and your understanding of listening to
God's voice and healing people? So to put that in my, in, in the
(12:49):
context of my journey of following Jesus so early on in
my conversion experience, I, I went to a, a seminar that was I,
I don't even know who ran it, but I know it was, it was hosted
in the city in, in Brisbane. And it was a seminar around
learning to hear God's voice. And the material was written by
(13:12):
a guy called Mark Virkler calledCommunion with God.
And really what that was, it wasjust this little weekend of
helping you to realise that's more often than not, the voices,
the voice that you're hearing isactually the Lord speaking to
you and giving you permission tobegin to explore that.
(13:35):
And then learning to journal that and then learning to put
that in the context of biblical knowledge and the character of
God and go actually, that is theLord speaking quite clearly.
And so that was kind of like theshallow end of the pool for me.
Straight after I gave my life toJesus, I was on this journey of
(13:58):
really hunger and to learn how to hear his voice because my
conversion was rather dramatic. And then the next sort of step
in the, in the, the unfolding ofhearing and healing.
I went to a Vineyard conference in, um, in Sydney and I was in
the early 90s and John Wimble was there.
(14:22):
He was teaching us about 5000 people at the Hordon Pavilion
there in Sydney. And you know, on, on the one
evening, John just got up the front, as he casually always
would. And he just said, look, I, I
think God's telling me there's people here with back conditions
that he would like to heal tonight.
(14:44):
And so if that's you, could you either put up your hand or stand
up where you are and so forth. And so there was a lady that
stood up like 2 rows in front ofme.
And by this stage I'm like, I'm interested enough to be nearby
it, but I'm not convinced enoughto actually have my hand in it
to, so to speak. Yeah.
(15:05):
And so, so I will, and then thiswas in at the end of a week of
teaching and training. And so John said, well, OK,
everyone, you, you know, one of the things that God's graced us
with in the vineyard is that we want to equip the Saints for the
ministry. So everyone gets to do the work
of Jesus and you are all anointed by the person of the
(15:27):
Holy Spirit. So just come as you are and
reach into the resource bag of of God and see what tools of
ministry need to be applied in these situations.
So anyway, this lady stands up in front of us.
People get around and pray and I'm sort of two rows away, but
close enough to get a really good eagle eye view on what's
(15:48):
happening. And the Holy Spirit just fell on
this dear woman with great power.
And her condition was that she had a very pronounced curvature
of the spine before they startedpraying with a with a very large
lump protruding on one of her shoulders and and a leg that was
(16:10):
dramatically shorter than the other.
And so over a period of about 45minutes of this little group of
people praying for her, the Lordtouched this woman with power
that I've never seen before in my life.
And her leg grew, her spine straightened and the, and it was
(16:32):
like watching as if a balloon under her shirt had just
deflated and disappeared. And, and this woman was
dramatically healed right in front of my eyes.
And for me, that started a really serious inquiry of the
Lord because I was like God, I thought I had my my theological
(16:53):
boxing in place of who you are and what you do and don't do
today. But as a result of what I've
just witnessed, seeing this woman physically healed in front
of my very eyes, the only conclusion I can say is, I don't
know you, do I? Yeah.
Put it put a hunger in me to want to know God.
(17:15):
And so it and it was just watching these people learning
to listen to God's heart and then pray for this woman and in
such a way that they've been equipped and authorised to do
so. That then began for me the
hearing and the doing going together.
And over the years that has, youknow, grown and developed and
(17:39):
matured in me and, and it sent me on a, a journey of also
pursuit of trying to find peoplewho are doing this that might
have some time to help me understand it.
And so, you know, I spent my ownown coin zipping around the
(17:59):
world trying to get in the, the space of people who are
ministering like, like, like this.
And so some of the people that Iwent and spent time with, the
people like gentleman guy calledKen Fish, he runs Orbis
Ministries. He used to be a part of some of
Wimber's ministry teams that back in the day.
(18:21):
And Randy Clark got went to a number of his conferences and,
and spent time with him and healing evangelist God by the
name of Robbie Dawkins. So and, and, and they just let
me into their world for a littlebit, just enough for me to get
(18:43):
really close and ask lots of questions.
Like when you say the Lord just told you this, like break that
down for me, you know? I think him what can happen in
the church these days is that weoften think of these big leaders
with these profound gifts of healings, and it's so special.
But I don't think that was what was envisaged by the early
(19:06):
church when the Spirit came on. Everyone, everyone has
authorization to engage in the ministry of Jesus.
So go and heal the sick. The Spirit of the Lord is on me
to preach good news to the poor,to set the captives free, to
heal the wounded, the broken hearted.
You know, it's all, it's a part of a mandate of being a
(19:27):
Christian, isn't it? So.
So you've seen this incredible demonstration of power and you
went, I want to be able to do that basically.
So so then you went on this learning journey.
How do I engage? What did you learn?
Yeah, yeah. Along with some of that journey
(19:47):
that you went. On like along the way, a lot of
it, a lot of what I learnt was it's a bit like when in the
Gospels, you know, Jesus turned up on the side of the hill that
day and there's all these thousands of people there that
are hungry and have got no food.And Mark's got Luke's Gospel
says that. He he had compassion on them
(20:12):
because they were like sheep without a shepherd.
And I think one of the really big underlying things that I've
discovered about the healing ministry of Jesus for today and
the power of the spirit and hearing the heart of God the
Father, four people, it it really begins with compassion.
(20:35):
And I see that in the person of Jesus right through the Gospels,
he was time and time again movedwith compassion, which is this.
I think it's quite, quite literally a the the word in the
Greek is like, it's like it's a deep grip in the very depths and
(20:56):
bow physical bowl of a person where something that you just
know this isn't right. And yet the heart of God is that
it would be made right and that this person would be free or
this person would be healed or, or come into a new way of life.
And so that was a really big thing I discovered along the way
(21:17):
and continue to learn is just how much the heart of God is
gripped for for the well being of his creation and for people.
And he and he does that through human agency.
He he does that through through people like you and me.
He says, here, here's my heart. Let feel that.
(21:38):
Let that move you. And sometimes I think we need
that help. Yeah, I love that emphasis
because it takes it away from just being the spectacle, the
the, the that kind of apologist idea.
Let me prove that God is real, but actually it reflects the
heart of God. That healing is a part of the
(22:00):
dimension of of transformation that God wants for us, physical
and emotional, doesn't it? We we are talking with Pastor
Kirk Delaney who passes a churchin Brisbane, Australia, but also
leads the Vineyard movement across the nation.
All about the Holy Spirit and healing will be back in just a
(22:20):
moment. Hearing God's voice is one of
the most important ways we get to know God, yet so many fail to
experience it. Here at God Conversations, we're
committed to equipping people all over the world to recognise
and respond to God's voice. It's a big vision, so we'd like
to give you the opportunity to join with us by investing in the
(22:41):
ministry. You can become a partner either
by sponsoring a special project or by giving on a monthly basis.
If you're unable to give financially, we would so value
your prayers for God's continuedhand to favour as we seek to
reach people all over the world.For more information on
partnership, go to godconversations.com/partners.
(23:04):
Welcome back to God conversations.
I just think this topic is so exciting.
We're talking hearing God's voice and healing and the
connection between the two, something that each one of us as
followers of Jesus, if we've made that decision to follow
Jesus, our, our lives should be punctuated by healing, not just
for ourselves, but for others. So Kirk, you've you've been on
(23:27):
the journey for a long time, butin the early days you saw a
demonstration of healing throughthe ministry of John Wimber, and
you started this journey learning about what it meant to
be moved with compassion. Then what happened?
So a, a little story of realising that this wasn't just
about, this was something that Jesus wanted for me as a
(23:50):
disciple to be able to do was Somy wife and I, we go to this
little healing conference in Tasmania and we're still very
much in the early stages of learning to trust what we think
we're hearing. And when I say hearing, I don't
just mean like audible engineering, but but when the
(24:13):
compassion of Jesus touches us, often we'll we'll feel something
in our body, a part of our body that is is the Holy Spirit
trying to highlight to us. Sometimes we'll just when we say
here, we actually see, it's likewe're looking at somebody and
it's like a part of their, theirbody or their physique physique
(24:35):
is sort of drawn. Our attention is drawn to it
like, oh, I think the Lord wantsto touch that as well as hearing
so, and these are all. Just a little bit like what John
Wimber experienced at that conference you attended.
I feel that God wants to heal backs tonight, so probably he
heard God say, felt it in his body perhaps.
(24:58):
Perhaps, and, and one of the things that we tend to do or try
to do in the vineyard is we encourage people just dial down
the language. Don't say thus says the Lord,
just preface it with I think maybe the Lord might be saying
this. And then that way, just that
sort of takes the pressure off. And it also gives permission for
(25:20):
people to learn to listen and torisk sharing what they think
they're hearing. And if you can build a culture
of that, that is such a great hotbed for developing a healing
ministry and a healing culture in the life of a church.
So anyway, Nicole and I go to this little conference in
Tasmania and the gentleman who'sspeaking says, oh, we're just
(25:44):
going to wait on the Lord and see if he wants to give some
words of knowledge for healing. And so anyway, my little pinky
on my right hand starts aching and I'm like, I didn't do
anything. I didn't carry the suitcase
wrong. I didn't injure it.
It was like, but it was really annoying me and I was like, God,
(26:05):
I know you want to talk to me, but this thing's really annoying
me and distracted me and it was anyway.
Thank you, your little finger. My little finger.
It was it was aching or something, was it?
Just it was just like like a throbbing pain was just kind of
gently moving through it very random, except I prefaced it
(26:26):
with Lord, do you want to tell me something for someone to be
healed? And the cultural context was
there was an invitation for the Kingdom to come with healing.
So so anyway, eventually I, I cottoned on that I think this
might be the Lord getting my attention through my little
pinky here. So I went down the front and I
(26:47):
shared with the person up front leading.
I said, I think there might be someone here with a sore pinky
finger that needs to be healed. I know.
Pretty quick, do you think? I was having a little giggle on
the side. I think he was.
Having, well, my son Kirk do what I ask him to.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
(27:08):
It's, it's, um, you know, as you're saying that I'm reminded
of part of John Wimber's testimony when he gave, was
giving his life to Jesus. He remembers that in Las Vegas,
there was someone that used to walk along the street that had a
sandwich board on there. And then on the front it said,
I'm a fool for Christ. And on the back it said, who's
(27:30):
fool are you? And so it's like, I think that's
a really sort of that's, that's the entryway into this stuff as
well. I to make this look good on
Jesus even if it doesn't look good on you.
And so anyways, sure enough thislady came down the front.
(27:50):
This elderly lady came down to the front and was an explained
to me why she had a sore right pinky finger.
Which was she? Her sorry, someone responded
when the call was made. Right.
OK. Well, that's good being going
(28:11):
you, she was about to say. Look, it's my nail.
I broke it on the way here. Can you just set up for me?
So anyway, this dear woman responded and she came and she
told me the, the cause of the pain in her finger was because
her husband had like he couldn'tdress himself, he had some
(28:35):
disabilities, he couldn't dress himself.
So for many, many years she would dress him everyday.
And as a part of that, she wouldput her right pinky finger in
the hook of his trousers to helpsort of lift his trap, dress him
and lift his trousers up every day.
And over time that had become arthritic.
(28:56):
And and then she as she's telling me that, she starts
crying and I'm like, wow, this is I think this is more than
about a pinky finger. And she says to me, and I'm, and
I'm really worried for my husband because he passed away
just recently and I don't know where he is.
And at that moment, you know, that compassion thing I was
(29:20):
talking about before, it was like my heart just broke open in
me. And before I could really, you
know, measure what came out of my mouth, I just, I just said to
it, Jesus wants you to know thathe, your husband is with him and
he is completely OK. And at that, this dear woman,
(29:43):
that just the, the weight of concern about her husband's
eternal well being just lifted off her shoulder.
She was, you know, crying. And some of the ladies that were
there were giving her a big hug and just praying with her and
hold it. And then I said, listen, can we
pray for your finger while we'reat it?
So why not? Dead yes, please so we prayed
(30:04):
for her finger and all the arthritic pain left her finger
and so like was just just a likea super cool little invitation
from Jesus to say hey, that's just what a pinky finger can do
you know and if you just listen to me and risk following what
I'm I'm inviting you into you'llsee even greater things than
(30:25):
that and so. I find it fascinating, part of
that story. I mean, obviously she had a
physical hearing healing of her finger, but this specific
personalised detail of what it meant for her life and her heart
because she's just lost her husband and she's constantly
reminded he's not there because the pain in her finger, pain in
(30:48):
the scrubbing and God's healing her heart at the same.
Time heals her heart, her finger.
He touched her fingers as well with healing.
And so she, you know, for the next sort of day of
conferencing, whenever I saw her, she was just a different
person. She was, she was just lit up by
the goodness of God. And so, yeah, that was three.
(31:13):
I love that story. That was that was you less than
101, was it Kirk? Yeah, that was pretty much my
one on one. That was a good system of fire.
Fortunately, it was only a smallcrowd.
It was like about 60. People humiliation.
So are you saying that, you know, if you want to get good at
healing, you gotta be prepared to be humiliated?
(31:33):
Is that what? You're saying gotta be you gotta
you. I do think you need to be able.
To like that. Risk humility.
Risk humility in the hands of a loving God.
Yeah. And perhaps in the context it's
compassion driven. So it's not humility that's the
(31:54):
overriding feeling, it's a senseof compassion as well.
So I understand obviously this mission, this ministry we've all
been called to. So what advice would you give to
someone who is back at the, you know, following Jesus, living
their life, perhaps wants to seethis area of their mission and
(32:19):
their ministry increase? Yeah, great question.
I think I would obviously ask the Lord to continue to by the
Holy Spirit just both fan that and then give and then give you
some direction for that to find its way out into life and so
everyday living. And so I would I would do a few
(32:43):
things. I would start even simply,
whether you're shopping at Woolworths and you're in aisle
12 or you're in the car park at the schoolyard, just begin to
ask the Lord. Lord, is there anyone here on
your heart that in the next few minutes while I'm here, you
(33:06):
would love to touch with your love today and just begin to
foster that in yourself first and foremost, let alone risk
reaching towards people. I think that's really important,
really important. Do that.
Let the let the Lord do that groundwork in you and and and
and birth that in you. And then and then, you know, if
(33:29):
you're looking for somewhere or someone, there are lots of
resources now available to us online all over the place to be
able to get equipped in how to do this stuff of Jesus.
But you know also if there's a little conferences around or
nearby where people are, the practitioners are there and
(33:53):
their sincerely given to seeing you equipped to do the ministry.
Not for them to do it to you, but for you to be equipped to go
and do it. Make make some time and
investment. Yeah, it's a real understanding
that we are little Christs, aren't we?
That was the original idea of being a Christian, actually
(34:13):
doing the works of Jesus and, and, and we're following Jesus,
which means doing what Jesus did.
What is the difference for you then?
Sometimes you've heard the voiceof God's word of knowledge, like
you get God downloads you some information about a sickness or
something that you should pray for, or just your average
(34:34):
everyday someone sick and you pray for them.
Yeah. Is there a difference or?
Yeah. Is there a difference with that,
do you think? Is a great question and I I
think the good news of Jesus is that he bursts in on the scene
and he says the Kingdom of God is at hand repent and receive
(34:58):
the good news. In other words, that that the
prophetic prophesied reality of God being king over all of his
creation that had been prophesied would come Jesus
standing there saying that's nowfulfilled.
I'm here. And so that future promise is
(35:19):
for today. And so whether or not whether or
not we're seeing we we experience the Holy Spirit
giving us a word of knowledge orwe just got a family member or a
work colleague, we just go, how are you today?
I've got a terrible head cold. Well, there's a terrible head
cold look any less like the Kingdom of God than than when
(35:43):
the Holy Spirit might give you aword of knowledge.
Well, no, it's the same playing field.
So can I pray for you Sure, you know, and then and away you go.
So I think whether we're gettingwords of knowledge or not, if
it's not looking like God's ruling and reigning, then I
(36:04):
think it's his heart and will that his Kingdom would come and
help alleviate that person's circumstances with his Kingdom.
So that's kind of how I approachit.
And and so some days also like personally, I'll take two
Panadol and then at the same time say, come Holy Spirit, you
(36:25):
know, I'm not, I'm not so super spiritual that I'm like off with
the fairies. It's like actually, you know
what, some Panadol would be goodright now to help with this
sinus throw those in and I'm gonna ask the Holy Spirit to
heal me at the same time. So and and just let the Lord get
busy about how that happens. Totally.
(36:45):
So some of some of the distinctives, I think that
you've highlighted, Kirk, understanding who we are as
ministers of Jesus, letting the Holy Spirit develop compassion
in us, and they're living a lifethat's listening to the Spirit,
perhaps even understanding that you're not walking this mission
alone, that God is here wanting to speak and use us in powerful
(37:10):
ways. I'm going to throw one out to
you which you'll love. Maybe not.
OK, So what do you? So we've, we've heard what
you've said. We go out there, we pray for
people and it doesn't happen. We pray for healing and we don't
see it happening. What do we do then?
Yeah, great question. I you know, we've we try as best
(37:36):
as we can here at our local church level is we're not
interested in building a healingsuperstars, but what we are
interested in growing is a community that heals and so be
in that context. We also hold on to an
understanding of that the Kingdom of God.
(37:58):
While Jesus says the Kingdom of God is at hand.
There's a sense of which it is fully.
It couldn't be any more fully here than it is already because
of who Jesus is. And yet at the same time, the
Kingdom of God seems delayed. So sometimes it's like we pray
for something and then it it doesn't happen immediately, but
(38:21):
might be send a week or week anda half later.
All of a sudden there's a breakthrough and the healing
comes or the deliverance comes or the whatever it is that
prayer is answered. So there's it's a bit of delay,
it's it's within reach, but it'sjust just over there.
And we just have to learn to keep on like Jesus said, keep on
(38:42):
knocking, keep on asking. And then there's also the
reality at the same time that the Kingdom of God is a long way
away, like it's a long way away.And it seems like it's, it's
going to be delayed for a long time.
And, and in circumstances like that where we've, we've had even
(39:05):
just in the last 12 months, a dear, dear woman in our church
had cancer. We all believed that the Kingdom
was now. And so we're praying for the,
for that to happen to be healed.We were all convinced she was
going to be healed, but she wasn't.
And then she wasn't. Not only, not here, then she
went on and then she died and then she went in to be with
(39:29):
Jesus. And so it's learning to build a
robust understanding of those 3 realities of the rule and reign
of God all at the one time and heart.
Just learn to hold them intention.
Because sometimes it's like in the space of an hour of engaging
(39:52):
with people in the course of a day, you will experience all
three of those realities and everything in between.
And so it's it happened, it didn't happen.
Oh, it's where were you got? And then there's so there's got
to be room for being able to as port talks about in Colossians,
(40:13):
I think about sharing in the sufferings of Christ.
It's like there's this as if we're going to be ministers of
Jesus. We got to learn to be able to be
Kingdom now and Kingdom not yet people and but still people of
the Kingdom. And in that context, creating a
(40:33):
postural framework that says to people, God's love for you is
not anything less than his. He sent his Son Jesus to make a
way for you to be able to be in relationship with him and to
have an eternal well being as well.
And so. Yeah, I love that.
(40:56):
I love that approach. Kirka.
We recently interviewed someone who's suffering through cancer
and we talked about hearing aidsthrough cancer, and she said
I've learnt that God's healing is not always the same as a
cure. And I thought that was a really
interesting way to frame it. Yeah, I love and I love what you
(41:17):
said about communities of healing because it it's God is
always moving us towards healingand wholeness.
So whether that's supernatural healing or emotional healing or
the healing through community orthe healing after death, there
is building a church community that is always moving towards
(41:40):
wholeness, however that comes. But I also think as what you've
said, we need to keep stepping out looking for the
supernatural, that Jesus promised greater works.
Will you do that? This is a mandate for every
single one of us, not just the Super healers.
I love that. I love.
That country. I'll just finish with one little
(42:03):
one little story if I could. I most recently over in Cambodia
with some friends doing some church planting work in
Cambodia. And we had we're in a small
group of people. There's like 10 of us in the
room and this guy was just telling us his story of how he
had surgery on his hip. It went wrong.
(42:25):
As a result, his leg was not fully functional and mobile and
he could no longer write his push bike, which was his main
means of transportation. So I just turned to my mate who
was travelling with me. I said this is a no brainer,
let's just ask the Lord to come and heal him and and we asked if
that was OK and he said yes. And then I looked around the
(42:47):
room and I found this like 19 year old university student that
was in the room. And I said, have you ever healed
anyone before? No, I said great, today's your
day, you come over here. And we sat him on the floor and
just coached him with how to move in the power of the spirit.
Well, anyway, this young guy, God uses him to see this other
(43:11):
bloke completely healed the and,and so the next meeting we had
this young bloke, he had gone and found like 20 of his friends
and said, you've got to come because we're, they're teaching
us how to do this stuff. And the guy that got healed, he
was able to run home to his wifewith joy and she brought her
whole family to the next gathering we had because her
(43:33):
husband could now ride his bike and become more employable.
And so I just love all of that. Straight out of the Gospels.
Little little Christs running around doing the work of the
Kingdom. And equipping these guys to do
the stuff. That it is been such a delight
(43:53):
to have you here. Thank you for your time and your
wisdom and for your courage to step out and heal as Jesus did.
And you know, I pray that this will be inspirational and
practical for so many of our listeners.
So thank you so much. Thanks for listening to God
Conversations with Tanya Harris.Don't miss the next episode by
(44:15):
subscribing to the show on your favourite podcast app.
And remember, the Holy Spirit was given so we could all hear
God's voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation.
God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
Let me ask you that question. What does God.
Mother Teresa. Someone asked her when it's got
to speak to you and she said whenever he wants.
So essentially the Bible is a collection of God conversations
if you. Like I had a vision of a car
accident and I'm sitting on the couch thinking why have I just
(00:21):
seen this? How could I know if God was
speaking to me? And how could I know that that
dream or that thought was actually just me thinking about,
I have said some bad beat. Jesus said we'd recognise his
voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation. If you had to sum up the
(00:42):
ministry of Jesus, it would include three key features,
teaching, exercising demons and healing.
As followers of Jesus and recipients of his spirit, the
church should also be known for healing.
But how does it work and what role does the spirits voice have
to play? Hi and welcome to the God
(01:03):
Conversations podcast. My name is Tanya Harris and I'm
a pastor, practical theologian, author, and the founding
director of God Conversations, aministry that equips you to
recognise and respond to God's voice.
Well, welcome to the show Today,those who are new and those who
are our regulars, I'm super excited about this topic.
(01:26):
We're talking all things Holy Spirit and healing.
We're talking to someone who is not just knows about it, but
practises it regularly. And we're very honoured to have
him on the show. But before we go into the show
itself, I just would love to share some good news.
There's always something going on at God Conversations, and
(01:47):
just this week we received a copy of my brand new book.
It's a academic book, so it's a little bit different than the
others and has a very long title, Hearing God's Voice
Towards a Theology of Contemporary Pentecostal
Revelatory Experience. Yeah, in academic world, in the
(02:09):
academic world, you do use a lotof words.
So I'm excited to share that with you, Not because you might
want to go out and buy it, you might.
But one of the strategies we have here at God Conversations
is to bring this message of hearing the voice of the Spirit.
Spirit LED discipleship, what itlooks like to have God's Kingdom
brought from heaven to earth to the global church to the world.
(02:33):
And part of our strategy is to really reach out to the academic
world. If you think about where do we
get our ideas from? Well, kind of in the Christian
Church, we get them from two places, kind of grassroots
level, the experience that we have as everyday Christians
experiencing the Spirit for ourselves.
But then we also get our understandings from books, don't
(02:54):
we? We or from preachers.
And we think about where do theyget their Ender's understandings
from? Well, they often get trained in
a seminary or a Bible college. And where do they get their
understandings from? Well, from the academics, the
researchers, the people who write the textbooks.
So we figured, hey, we need to give some time to really bring
the message of God conversationsto the academic world.
(03:15):
So this book is aiming to do that.
It's basically a rewrite of my PhD thesis.
And one of the big findings, if you've heard me talk about it
before, was that this topic in the academic world is virtually
absent, at least in the Protestant world.
There's a little bit out on the gift of prophecy, but not on the
(03:36):
direct experience of hearing God's voice for yourself.
So we feel that this is super, super strategic and important as
well. So whether you know someone or
perhaps you are an academic and you want to learn more, you can
access that book. But can you pray with us?
Just that the messaging gets outand reaches into Bible colleges,
(03:58):
universities and seminaries and really helps people to
articulate what they're experiencing.
You know, our understandings of God come from our own
experiences, but then we interpret them in the teaching
that we're given. And hopefully this book will
help people to be able to clearly articulate what God is
doing and pass on to others, butalso to kind of prevent some of
(04:21):
the issues and the problems thatwe have in this area.
So that's our latest news. It's exciting stuff.
So celebrate with us, but let meintroduce you to our topic today
all around the Holy Spirit and healing.
And we're talking to someone whoknows a lot about this topic.
He is also a pastor of a local church in Queensland, Australia.
(04:44):
And he is the national director of the Vineyard Movement here in
this country as well. I met him recently, his name is
Kirk Delaney. Welcome to the show, Kirk.
It's so fabulous to have you with us.
We met for the first time, I think it was a couple months ago
in New Zealand, was it? Yeah, that's right.
(05:05):
So January, it was a nice start to the year to go to New
Zealand, to the new Wine Conference.
It was, it was fabulous. I was laughing with some friends
of mine. Actually, someone had noted on
my Facebook feed that I was at the new wine conference and a
friend said, umm, Tanya, you speaking out of wine conference?
OK, can I come? But Kirk, it's great to have
(05:29):
you. You, as I mentioned in the
introduction, you are the leaderof the vineyard movement in
Australia. Everyone may know what that
stream of church is. So perhaps you can give us a
little bit of a background of the vineyard as well as a bit of
an intro to yourself. So hey, first, thanks for having
(05:50):
me on on your programme. It's a real treat to be with you
and share a little bit of story to some of the questions around
here in God. So love to be a part of that
conversation. So thanks for having me.
Vineyard Churches Australia. We've been in Australia since
1995 and we've had a number of hills and valleys in terms of
(06:16):
becoming a church planting movement here in the country
over the years. And obviously we streamed
directly out of the Vineyard movement, out of the USA
historically and John Wimber andall of the reality that came
with John in terms of Kingdom theology and in terms of being
(06:40):
practitioners of the ministry ofJesus in the power of the Holy
Spirit and so. I remember I reading Don
Wimber's book, What was the one that he wrote about the power of
the spirit number of years ago. Yeah, yeah.
So his original ones were power healing and power evangelism.
Yeah. Looking at the context of the
(07:03):
role of the spirit in in missionand seeing the Kingdom come and
particularly with signs and wonders.
And he was looking at it from the perspective of why is it
happening in in many other nations other than in western
developed nations. And so he went that took him on
a journey of figuring out what asigns and wonders look like in a
(07:25):
western context. And so, so that was John's
journey. And for us here in Australia,
we, my wife Nicole and I, we have, we are the second
generation national directors ofthe Vineyard movement here in
Australia. We have been leading the
movement now for eight years andwe are also pretty much where
(07:51):
local church pastors firstly. So we hold this dual role.
We passed the locally and we lead lead nationally as well.
So it keeps us rather busy and focused in many directions at
the one time. I bet it does.
But just a little bit of background on me.
I grew up in a Christian context, a Christian home.
(08:15):
My mom and dad are at various stages in their their life while
we were children growing up had different seasons of being
involved in local church. But my mum in particular, she
was always a person of prayer and I still have memories as a
little kid when my mum would have some local Catholic nuns
(08:41):
would come and pray with her at our house when I was a little
kid. So mum's always been like prayer
and also then she would also then welcome women who were
exiting prison and trying to reengage in, in social life
(09:01):
again. And mum would be a, a place for
women to come to, to help them sort of reengage with life again
back in the community. And so prayer, mercy, those
crazy things are a big part of my story.
I was kind of soaked in it before I realised I even was
(09:21):
soaked in it. And then probably it was
probably when I was about. So went to church, grew up in
church, heard the reality of theneed for Jesus in my life as a,
as a king, as a Lord, as a saviour.
And, and then that happened for me rather dramatically when I
(09:45):
was 19 years of age. And at not long after meeting
Jesus in a rather dynamic way, Ireally felt him calling me to be
involved in local church ministry.
And so went on the journey and did my studies, my theological
studies and was appointed in ministry in that at that time,
(10:10):
the Uniting Church. And, and then while that was
happening, my parents were involved with discovering the
Vineyard movement and they wouldsend me their materials.
I would read the materials and then eventually we, Nicole and
I, encountered a couple of Vineyard people through some
(10:31):
conferences that the Vineyard was running in Australia in the
mid to late 90s. And as a result of that, our
life kind of got turned upside down and inside out.
And we realised that God had puta real longing in us to be
people who do what Jesus did andunderstand what it meant to not
(10:56):
just live with the person or thespirit giving you moral and
spiritual transformation internally and, and, and forming
you into, you know, someone thatlooks like Jesus.
But then also learning to partner with the Holy Spirit to
enact the empowering works of Jesus, healing the sick, casting
(11:19):
out demons and the like. And so so we went on that
journey and ended up in the vineyard and, and here we are.
And I think that's one of the huge strengths of the Vineyard
Church around the world as well,that you are known for your
works and the spirit and, you know, meeting you in January and
(11:42):
just observing your ministry. I love the emphasis on healing
because obviously we know that Jesus did acts of healing.
In fact, that's what he's known for acts of healing and
exercising demons and teaching, but mostly that was what he was
known for. And so therefore, if we have the
spirit, then the spirit calls usto, to do the same.
(12:06):
So the Christian, the normal Christian life, the normal, it
look like that. And I, I love that.
And I think that's something that your church movement is
such a strength to bring to the church that perhaps has been, I
don't know, it ebbs and flows, doesn't it?
I, I wondered if we were to do asurvey of a bunch of Christians,
(12:26):
when did you last pray for someone to be healed?
You know, so, so talk to me about at God conversations.
We're all about hearing the voice of God, following it,
recognising it. What is the connection, then, in
your experience and your understanding of listening to
God's voice and healing people? So to put that in my, in, in the
(12:49):
context of my journey of following Jesus so early on in
my conversion experience, I, I went to a, a seminar that was I,
I don't even know who ran it, but I know it was, it was hosted
in the city in, in Brisbane. And it was a seminar around
learning to hear God's voice. And the material was written by
(13:12):
a guy called Mark Virkler calledCommunion with God.
And really what that was, it wasjust this little weekend of
helping you to realise that's more often than not, the voices,
the voice that you're hearing isactually the Lord speaking to
you and giving you permission tobegin to explore that.
(13:35):
And then learning to journal that and then learning to put
that in the context of biblical knowledge and the character of
God and go actually, that is theLord speaking quite clearly.
And so that was kind of like theshallow end of the pool for me.
Straight after I gave my life toJesus, I was on this journey of
(13:58):
really hunger and to learn how to hear his voice because my
conversion was rather dramatic. And then the next sort of step
in the, in the, the unfolding ofhearing and healing.
I went to a Vineyard conference in, um, in Sydney and I was in
the early 90s and John Wimble was there.
(14:22):
He was teaching us about 5000 people at the Hordon Pavilion
there in Sydney. And you know, on, on the one
evening, John just got up the front, as he casually always
would. And he just said, look, I, I
think God's telling me there's people here with back conditions
that he would like to heal tonight.
(14:44):
And so if that's you, could you either put up your hand or stand
up where you are and so forth. And so there was a lady that
stood up like 2 rows in front ofme.
And by this stage I'm like, I'm interested enough to be nearby
it, but I'm not convinced enoughto actually have my hand in it
to, so to speak. Yeah.
(15:05):
And so, so I will, and then thiswas in at the end of a week of
teaching and training. And so John said, well, OK,
everyone, you, you know, one of the things that God's graced us
with in the vineyard is that we want to equip the Saints for the
ministry. So everyone gets to do the work
of Jesus and you are all anointed by the person of the
(15:27):
Holy Spirit. So just come as you are and
reach into the resource bag of of God and see what tools of
ministry need to be applied in these situations.
So anyway, this lady stands up in front of us.
People get around and pray and I'm sort of two rows away, but
close enough to get a really good eagle eye view on what's
(15:48):
happening. And the Holy Spirit just fell on
this dear woman with great power.
And her condition was that she had a very pronounced curvature
of the spine before they startedpraying with a with a very large
lump protruding on one of her shoulders and and a leg that was
(16:10):
dramatically shorter than the other.
And so over a period of about 45minutes of this little group of
people praying for her, the Lordtouched this woman with power
that I've never seen before in my life.
And her leg grew, her spine straightened and the, and it was
(16:32):
like watching as if a balloon under her shirt had just
deflated and disappeared. And, and this woman was
dramatically healed right in front of my eyes.
And for me, that started a really serious inquiry of the
Lord because I was like God, I thought I had my my theological
(16:53):
boxing in place of who you are and what you do and don't do
today. But as a result of what I've
just witnessed, seeing this woman physically healed in front
of my very eyes, the only conclusion I can say is, I don't
know you, do I? Yeah.
Put it put a hunger in me to want to know God.
(17:15):
And so it and it was just watching these people learning
to listen to God's heart and then pray for this woman and in
such a way that they've been equipped and authorised to do
so. That then began for me the
hearing and the doing going together.
And over the years that has, youknow, grown and developed and
(17:39):
matured in me and, and it sent me on a, a journey of also
pursuit of trying to find peoplewho are doing this that might
have some time to help me understand it.
And so, you know, I spent my ownown coin zipping around the
(17:59):
world trying to get in the, the space of people who are
ministering like, like, like this.
And so some of the people that Iwent and spent time with, the
people like gentleman guy calledKen Fish, he runs Orbis
Ministries. He used to be a part of some of
Wimber's ministry teams that back in the day.
(18:21):
And Randy Clark got went to a number of his conferences and,
and spent time with him and healing evangelist God by the
name of Robbie Dawkins. So and, and, and they just let
me into their world for a littlebit, just enough for me to get
(18:43):
really close and ask lots of questions.
Like when you say the Lord just told you this, like break that
down for me, you know? I think him what can happen in
the church these days is that weoften think of these big leaders
with these profound gifts of healings, and it's so special.
But I don't think that was what was envisaged by the early
(19:06):
church when the Spirit came on. Everyone, everyone has
authorization to engage in the ministry of Jesus.
So go and heal the sick. The Spirit of the Lord is on me
to preach good news to the poor,to set the captives free, to
heal the wounded, the broken hearted.
You know, it's all, it's a part of a mandate of being a
(19:27):
Christian, isn't it? So.
So you've seen this incredible demonstration of power and you
went, I want to be able to do that basically.
So so then you went on this learning journey.
How do I engage? What did you learn?
Yeah, yeah. Along with some of that journey
(19:47):
that you went. On like along the way, a lot of
it, a lot of what I learnt was it's a bit like when in the
Gospels, you know, Jesus turned up on the side of the hill that
day and there's all these thousands of people there that
are hungry and have got no food.And Mark's got Luke's Gospel
says that. He he had compassion on them
(20:12):
because they were like sheep without a shepherd.
And I think one of the really big underlying things that I've
discovered about the healing ministry of Jesus for today and
the power of the spirit and hearing the heart of God the
Father, four people, it it really begins with compassion.
(20:35):
And I see that in the person of Jesus right through the Gospels,
he was time and time again movedwith compassion, which is this.
I think it's quite, quite literally a the the word in the
Greek is like, it's like it's a deep grip in the very depths and
(20:56):
bow physical bowl of a person where something that you just
know this isn't right. And yet the heart of God is that
it would be made right and that this person would be free or
this person would be healed or, or come into a new way of life.
And so that was a really big thing I discovered along the way
(21:17):
and continue to learn is just how much the heart of God is
gripped for for the well being of his creation and for people.
And he and he does that through human agency.
He he does that through through people like you and me.
He says, here, here's my heart. Let feel that.
(21:38):
Let that move you. And sometimes I think we need
that help. Yeah, I love that emphasis
because it takes it away from just being the spectacle, the
the, the that kind of apologist idea.
Let me prove that God is real, but actually it reflects the
heart of God. That healing is a part of the
(22:00):
dimension of of transformation that God wants for us, physical
and emotional, doesn't it? We we are talking with Pastor
Kirk Delaney who passes a churchin Brisbane, Australia, but also
leads the Vineyard movement across the nation.
All about the Holy Spirit and healing will be back in just a
(22:20):
moment. Hearing God's voice is one of
the most important ways we get to know God, yet so many fail to
experience it. Here at God Conversations, we're
committed to equipping people all over the world to recognise
and respond to God's voice. It's a big vision, so we'd like
to give you the opportunity to join with us by investing in the
(22:41):
ministry. You can become a partner either
by sponsoring a special project or by giving on a monthly basis.
If you're unable to give financially, we would so value
your prayers for God's continuedhand to favour as we seek to
reach people all over the world.For more information on
partnership, go to godconversations.com/partners.
(23:04):
Welcome back to God conversations.
I just think this topic is so exciting.
We're talking hearing God's voice and healing and the
connection between the two, something that each one of us as
followers of Jesus, if we've made that decision to follow
Jesus, our, our lives should be punctuated by healing, not just
for ourselves, but for others. So Kirk, you've you've been on
(23:27):
the journey for a long time, butin the early days you saw a
demonstration of healing throughthe ministry of John Wimber, and
you started this journey learning about what it meant to
be moved with compassion. Then what happened?
So a, a little story of realising that this wasn't just
about, this was something that Jesus wanted for me as a
(23:50):
disciple to be able to do was Somy wife and I, we go to this
little healing conference in Tasmania and we're still very
much in the early stages of learning to trust what we think
we're hearing. And when I say hearing, I don't
just mean like audible engineering, but but when the
(24:13):
compassion of Jesus touches us, often we'll we'll feel something
in our body, a part of our body that is is the Holy Spirit
trying to highlight to us. Sometimes we'll just when we say
here, we actually see, it's likewe're looking at somebody and
it's like a part of their, theirbody or their physique physique
(24:35):
is sort of drawn. Our attention is drawn to it
like, oh, I think the Lord wantsto touch that as well as hearing
so, and these are all. Just a little bit like what John
Wimber experienced at that conference you attended.
I feel that God wants to heal backs tonight, so probably he
heard God say, felt it in his body perhaps.
(24:58):
Perhaps, and, and one of the things that we tend to do or try
to do in the vineyard is we encourage people just dial down
the language. Don't say thus says the Lord,
just preface it with I think maybe the Lord might be saying
this. And then that way, just that
sort of takes the pressure off. And it also gives permission for
(25:20):
people to learn to listen and torisk sharing what they think
they're hearing. And if you can build a culture
of that, that is such a great hotbed for developing a healing
ministry and a healing culture in the life of a church.
So anyway, Nicole and I go to this little conference in
Tasmania and the gentleman who'sspeaking says, oh, we're just
(25:44):
going to wait on the Lord and see if he wants to give some
words of knowledge for healing. And so anyway, my little pinky
on my right hand starts aching and I'm like, I didn't do
anything. I didn't carry the suitcase
wrong. I didn't injure it.
It was like, but it was really annoying me and I was like, God,
(26:05):
I know you want to talk to me, but this thing's really annoying
me and distracted me and it was anyway.
Thank you, your little finger. My little finger.
It was it was aching or something, was it?
Just it was just like like a throbbing pain was just kind of
gently moving through it very random, except I prefaced it
(26:26):
with Lord, do you want to tell me something for someone to be
healed? And the cultural context was
there was an invitation for the Kingdom to come with healing.
So so anyway, eventually I, I cottoned on that I think this
might be the Lord getting my attention through my little
pinky here. So I went down the front and I
(26:47):
shared with the person up front leading.
I said, I think there might be someone here with a sore pinky
finger that needs to be healed. I know.
Pretty quick, do you think? I was having a little giggle on
the side. I think he was.
Having, well, my son Kirk do what I ask him to.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
(27:08):
It's, it's, um, you know, as you're saying that I'm reminded
of part of John Wimber's testimony when he gave, was
giving his life to Jesus. He remembers that in Las Vegas,
there was someone that used to walk along the street that had a
sandwich board on there. And then on the front it said,
I'm a fool for Christ. And on the back it said, who's
(27:30):
fool are you? And so it's like, I think that's
a really sort of that's, that's the entryway into this stuff as
well. I to make this look good on
Jesus even if it doesn't look good on you.
And so anyways, sure enough thislady came down the front.
(27:50):
This elderly lady came down to the front and was an explained
to me why she had a sore right pinky finger.
Which was she? Her sorry, someone responded
when the call was made. Right.
OK. Well, that's good being going
(28:11):
you, she was about to say. Look, it's my nail.
I broke it on the way here. Can you just set up for me?
So anyway, this dear woman responded and she came and she
told me the, the cause of the pain in her finger was because
her husband had like he couldn'tdress himself, he had some
(28:35):
disabilities, he couldn't dress himself.
So for many, many years she would dress him everyday.
And as a part of that, she wouldput her right pinky finger in
the hook of his trousers to helpsort of lift his trap, dress him
and lift his trousers up every day.
And over time that had become arthritic.
(28:56):
And and then she as she's telling me that, she starts
crying and I'm like, wow, this is I think this is more than
about a pinky finger. And she says to me, and I'm, and
I'm really worried for my husband because he passed away
just recently and I don't know where he is.
And at that moment, you know, that compassion thing I was
(29:20):
talking about before, it was like my heart just broke open in
me. And before I could really, you
know, measure what came out of my mouth, I just, I just said to
it, Jesus wants you to know thathe, your husband is with him and
he is completely OK. And at that, this dear woman,
(29:43):
that just the, the weight of concern about her husband's
eternal well being just lifted off her shoulder.
She was, you know, crying. And some of the ladies that were
there were giving her a big hug and just praying with her and
hold it. And then I said, listen, can we
pray for your finger while we'reat it?
So why not? Dead yes, please so we prayed
(30:04):
for her finger and all the arthritic pain left her finger
and so like was just just a likea super cool little invitation
from Jesus to say hey, that's just what a pinky finger can do
you know and if you just listen to me and risk following what
I'm I'm inviting you into you'llsee even greater things than
(30:25):
that and so. I find it fascinating, part of
that story. I mean, obviously she had a
physical hearing healing of her finger, but this specific
personalised detail of what it meant for her life and her heart
because she's just lost her husband and she's constantly
reminded he's not there because the pain in her finger, pain in
(30:48):
the scrubbing and God's healing her heart at the same.
Time heals her heart, her finger.
He touched her fingers as well with healing.
And so she, you know, for the next sort of day of
conferencing, whenever I saw her, she was just a different
person. She was, she was just lit up by
the goodness of God. And so, yeah, that was three.
(31:13):
I love that story. That was that was you less than
101, was it Kirk? Yeah, that was pretty much my
one on one. That was a good system of fire.
Fortunately, it was only a smallcrowd.
It was like about 60. People humiliation.
So are you saying that, you know, if you want to get good at
healing, you gotta be prepared to be humiliated?
(31:33):
Is that what? You're saying gotta be you gotta
you. I do think you need to be able.
To like that. Risk humility.
Risk humility in the hands of a loving God.
Yeah. And perhaps in the context it's
compassion driven. So it's not humility that's the
(31:54):
overriding feeling, it's a senseof compassion as well.
So I understand obviously this mission, this ministry we've all
been called to. So what advice would you give to
someone who is back at the, you know, following Jesus, living
their life, perhaps wants to seethis area of their mission and
(32:19):
their ministry increase? Yeah, great question.
I think I would obviously ask the Lord to continue to by the
Holy Spirit just both fan that and then give and then give you
some direction for that to find its way out into life and so
everyday living. And so I would I would do a few
(32:43):
things. I would start even simply,
whether you're shopping at Woolworths and you're in aisle
12 or you're in the car park at the schoolyard, just begin to
ask the Lord. Lord, is there anyone here on
your heart that in the next few minutes while I'm here, you
(33:06):
would love to touch with your love today and just begin to
foster that in yourself first and foremost, let alone risk
reaching towards people. I think that's really important,
really important. Do that.
Let the let the Lord do that groundwork in you and and and
and birth that in you. And then and then, you know, if
(33:29):
you're looking for somewhere or someone, there are lots of
resources now available to us online all over the place to be
able to get equipped in how to do this stuff of Jesus.
But you know also if there's a little conferences around or
nearby where people are, the practitioners are there and
(33:53):
their sincerely given to seeing you equipped to do the ministry.
Not for them to do it to you, but for you to be equipped to go
and do it. Make make some time and
investment. Yeah, it's a real understanding
that we are little Christs, aren't we?
That was the original idea of being a Christian, actually
(34:13):
doing the works of Jesus and, and, and we're following Jesus,
which means doing what Jesus did.
What is the difference for you then?
Sometimes you've heard the voiceof God's word of knowledge, like
you get God downloads you some information about a sickness or
something that you should pray for, or just your average
(34:34):
everyday someone sick and you pray for them.
Yeah. Is there a difference or?
Yeah. Is there a difference with that,
do you think? Is a great question and I I
think the good news of Jesus is that he bursts in on the scene
and he says the Kingdom of God is at hand repent and receive
(34:58):
the good news. In other words, that that the
prophetic prophesied reality of God being king over all of his
creation that had been prophesied would come Jesus
standing there saying that's nowfulfilled.
I'm here. And so that future promise is
(35:19):
for today. And so whether or not whether or
not we're seeing we we experience the Holy Spirit
giving us a word of knowledge orwe just got a family member or a
work colleague, we just go, how are you today?
I've got a terrible head cold. Well, there's a terrible head
cold look any less like the Kingdom of God than than when
(35:43):
the Holy Spirit might give you aword of knowledge.
Well, no, it's the same playing field.
So can I pray for you Sure, you know, and then and away you go.
So I think whether we're gettingwords of knowledge or not, if
it's not looking like God's ruling and reigning, then I
(36:04):
think it's his heart and will that his Kingdom would come and
help alleviate that person's circumstances with his Kingdom.
So that's kind of how I approachit.
And and so some days also like personally, I'll take two
Panadol and then at the same time say, come Holy Spirit, you
(36:25):
know, I'm not, I'm not so super spiritual that I'm like off with
the fairies. It's like actually, you know
what, some Panadol would be goodright now to help with this
sinus throw those in and I'm gonna ask the Holy Spirit to
heal me at the same time. So and and just let the Lord get
busy about how that happens. Totally.
(36:45):
So some of some of the distinctives, I think that
you've highlighted, Kirk, understanding who we are as
ministers of Jesus, letting the Holy Spirit develop compassion
in us, and they're living a lifethat's listening to the Spirit,
perhaps even understanding that you're not walking this mission
alone, that God is here wanting to speak and use us in powerful
(37:10):
ways. I'm going to throw one out to
you which you'll love. Maybe not.
OK, So what do you? So we've, we've heard what
you've said. We go out there, we pray for
people and it doesn't happen. We pray for healing and we don't
see it happening. What do we do then?
Yeah, great question. I you know, we've we try as best
(37:36):
as we can here at our local church level is we're not
interested in building a healingsuperstars, but what we are
interested in growing is a community that heals and so be
in that context. We also hold on to an
understanding of that the Kingdom of God.
(37:58):
While Jesus says the Kingdom of God is at hand.
There's a sense of which it is fully.
It couldn't be any more fully here than it is already because
of who Jesus is. And yet at the same time, the
Kingdom of God seems delayed. So sometimes it's like we pray
for something and then it it doesn't happen immediately, but
(38:21):
might be send a week or week anda half later.
All of a sudden there's a breakthrough and the healing
comes or the deliverance comes or the whatever it is that
prayer is answered. So there's it's a bit of delay,
it's it's within reach, but it'sjust just over there.
And we just have to learn to keep on like Jesus said, keep on
(38:42):
knocking, keep on asking. And then there's also the
reality at the same time that the Kingdom of God is a long way
away, like it's a long way away.And it seems like it's, it's
going to be delayed for a long time.
And, and in circumstances like that where we've, we've had even
(39:05):
just in the last 12 months, a dear, dear woman in our church
had cancer. We all believed that the Kingdom
was now. And so we're praying for the,
for that to happen to be healed.We were all convinced she was
going to be healed, but she wasn't.
And then she wasn't. Not only, not here, then she
went on and then she died and then she went in to be with
(39:29):
Jesus. And so it's learning to build a
robust understanding of those 3 realities of the rule and reign
of God all at the one time and heart.
Just learn to hold them intention.
Because sometimes it's like in the space of an hour of engaging
(39:52):
with people in the course of a day, you will experience all
three of those realities and everything in between.
And so it's it happened, it didn't happen.
Oh, it's where were you got? And then there's so there's got
to be room for being able to as port talks about in Colossians,
(40:13):
I think about sharing in the sufferings of Christ.
It's like there's this as if we're going to be ministers of
Jesus. We got to learn to be able to be
Kingdom now and Kingdom not yet people and but still people of
the Kingdom. And in that context, creating a
(40:33):
postural framework that says to people, God's love for you is
not anything less than his. He sent his Son Jesus to make a
way for you to be able to be in relationship with him and to
have an eternal well being as well.
And so. Yeah, I love that.
(40:56):
I love that approach. Kirka.
We recently interviewed someone who's suffering through cancer
and we talked about hearing aidsthrough cancer, and she said
I've learnt that God's healing is not always the same as a
cure. And I thought that was a really
interesting way to frame it. Yeah, I love and I love what you
(41:17):
said about communities of healing because it it's God is
always moving us towards healingand wholeness.
So whether that's supernatural healing or emotional healing or
the healing through community orthe healing after death, there
is building a church community that is always moving towards
(41:40):
wholeness, however that comes. But I also think as what you've
said, we need to keep stepping out looking for the
supernatural, that Jesus promised greater works.
Will you do that? This is a mandate for every
single one of us, not just the Super healers.
I love that. I love.
That country. I'll just finish with one little
(42:03):
one little story if I could. I most recently over in Cambodia
with some friends doing some church planting work in
Cambodia. And we had we're in a small
group of people. There's like 10 of us in the
room and this guy was just telling us his story of how he
had surgery on his hip. It went wrong.
(42:25):
As a result, his leg was not fully functional and mobile and
he could no longer write his push bike, which was his main
means of transportation. So I just turned to my mate who
was travelling with me. I said this is a no brainer,
let's just ask the Lord to come and heal him and and we asked if
that was OK and he said yes. And then I looked around the
(42:47):
room and I found this like 19 year old university student that
was in the room. And I said, have you ever healed
anyone before? No, I said great, today's your
day, you come over here. And we sat him on the floor and
just coached him with how to move in the power of the spirit.
Well, anyway, this young guy, God uses him to see this other
(43:11):
bloke completely healed the and,and so the next meeting we had
this young bloke, he had gone and found like 20 of his friends
and said, you've got to come because we're, they're teaching
us how to do this stuff. And the guy that got healed, he
was able to run home to his wifewith joy and she brought her
whole family to the next gathering we had because her
(43:33):
husband could now ride his bike and become more employable.
And so I just love all of that. Straight out of the Gospels.
Little little Christs running around doing the work of the
Kingdom. And equipping these guys to do
the stuff. That it is been such a delight
(43:53):
to have you here. Thank you for your time and your
wisdom and for your courage to step out and heal as Jesus did.
And you know, I pray that this will be inspirational and
practical for so many of our listeners.
So thank you so much. Thanks for listening to God
Conversations with Tanya Harris.Don't miss the next episode by
(44:15):
subscribing to the show on your favourite podcast app.
And remember, the Holy Spirit was given so we could all hear
God's voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation.
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