July 28, 2024 • 40 mins
Hearing God in a dream can be a life-changing experience, but it can also be a confusing one! Dreams speak a symbolic and sometimes confusing language and the process of interpretation is not well understood, making it subject to mistakes and abuse. It’s no wonder the claim to hearing God in a dream is often met with skepticism, disinterest and even mockery.
Dream interpretation is more art than science, so it isn’t always straightforward or formulaic, but there are some principles we can learn that will help us hear God more clearly in this creative and powerful way.
In this episode of the show, I talk with British dreams expert Tony Cooke about the common mistakes people make when learning to hear God in dreams. We unpack the dynamics of the God-dream experience so that you can confidently discern God’s voice as we sleep. You’ll discover:
- A little of Tony’s back story and how he became interested in dream interpretation when prophetic experiences broke out in his church.
- Mistake 1: misunderstanding the symbolism of people in our dreams.
One of the biggest mistakes people make is when they see a related person in their dream and they assume the dream is about that person.
- Mistake 2: over-reliance on dream dictionaries. A dream dictionary is helpful in teaching us about symbolism, but has limited use, because symbols must be understood in the context of the dreamer’s life.
- Mistake 3: fixating on individual symbols while not considering the bigger picture.
- Mistake 4: dream interpreters who lapse into prophecy and thereby add to the message of the dream.
- Mistake 5: the inability to discern between soul and spirit in a dream.
- A reminder that making mistakes is part of the learning process! Given our propensity for error, humility in dream interpretation is crucial. We also need to receive training and be willing to reflect on our experiences in community.
The biggest mistake of all is not getting trained properly. Humility says, “I need to know how to do this properly or I can do damage.”
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About Tony Cooke
Tony is the founder of The Dream Academy (www.thedreamacademy.online), an online training and support site for biblical dream interpreters. He and his wife Dwee planted pastored the Cheltenham Vineyard Church in 2009 and later continued to teach and train in many countries including The Netherlands, Canada, Switzerland, India, South Africa, USA, Spain and Ireland. Tony is also on the Leadership Board of Patria Ministries International, a global family of businesses, churches, ministries and itinerant ministers which provides a highly interdependent personal environment where leaders can build relationships and be strengthened and equipped for greater Kingdom influence. Tony and his wife Dwee have two grown up children and live on the south coast of England.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Good conversations with Tanya Harris let.
Me ask you that question what does God tell Well you know
Thunder life is. Mother Teresa.
Someone asked her. When did God speak to you?
And she said. Whatever he wants.
So essentially the Bible is a collection of God conversations
if you. Like I had a.
Vision of a car accident and I'msitting on the couch thinking
(00:21):
why have I just seen this? How could I know if God was
speaking to me? How could I know that that dream
or that thought was actually just me thinking about how I
said the bad? Jesus said we'd recognise his
voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation. Hearing God in a dream can be a
(00:42):
life changing experience, but can also be a bit confusing.
The process of dream interpretation is not well
understood in our day, and it's therefore subject to plenty of
mistakes and abuse. It's no wonder the claim to God
dreams is often met with scepticism, disinterest and
sometimes even mockery. Dream interpretation is more art
(01:05):
than science, so it isn't alwaysstraightforward or formulaic.
But there are some principles wecan all learn that will help us
hear God's voice more clearly inthis creative and powerful form.
Hi and welcome to the God Conversations podcast.
My name is Tanya Harris, and I'ma pastor, practical theologian,
(01:25):
author, and the founding director of God Conversations
and Ministry that equips you to recognise and respond to God's
voice. Welcome to the show.
It's a fascinating one. We're going to talk about the
common mistakes people make whenlearning to hear God in dreams.
I often think it always looks sosimple when we read in the Bible
(01:48):
things like, and the Lord spoke to Abraham in a vision of the
night, or the Lord spoke to Joseph in a dream, and then off
it goes into the story. But when it comes to
understanding our own dreams, there are several things that
can help us in the process. And in this podcast, we're going
to unpack some of those dynamics.
(02:09):
And our goal is to help you to confidently discern God's voice
as you sleep. Now, I should also let you know
that here at God Conversations, we are in the planning for
something super special. I haven't told many people, but
in October of this year, we're launching my new book, God
Dreams, How to Hear God's voice in dreams and visions.
(02:32):
And you know this book, like some of the others too, but this
one's been 10 years in the making, and you might have
already gotten a taster if you've done our God Dreams on
Loss online course or you've been to one of our seminars.
But God Dreams, the book goes a whole lot deeper and it even
draws on the visions from the Book of Revelation in the Bible.
(02:52):
So it's an exciting book that I'm sure you're going to enjoy
reading, and I'm super excited about it.
I believe it's going to help a lot of people across the world,
so we'll keep you posted as we get closer to that launch date.
But back to today's episode. Let me introduce you to our
special guest. This man is the founder of the
(03:12):
Dream Academy, an online training and support site for
dream interpreters based out of the UK.
He was trained under the very well known US Minister John Paul
Jackson and has been involved inpastoral ministry for many
years. A huge welcome to the show.
Tony Cook. It is so great to have you on
(03:34):
the show. Tony, welcome.
Well, thank you so much. It's a real privilege.
A fellow dreamer from across theplanet all the way from the UK.
We've just had a conversation around how cold it and grey it
is over there and how hot and stinky it is over here.
So in keeping with our conversations about the weather,
(03:54):
that we won't talk about the whinging palms and the weather
will be. Indeed, yes.
So we've, we've just been chatting a little bit about your
area of expertise and our sharedlove of God speaking in dreams
and visions. I always joke that God speaks to
me the most in this area becausemy brain is too busy to get
(04:17):
through to me during the day. But Tony, for the sake of our
listeners who are all around theworld, tell us a little bit
about yourself. OK, well apart from being 190
years old, I got into this wholething because Duy Duy, my
(04:38):
wonderful long suffering wife and I were pastoring a church, a
Vineyard church here in the UK and suddenly it was patently
obvious the prophetic was breaking out and we have three
options. We could have just locked it
down and made sure that nobody ventured into the prophetic,
(05:01):
which we had never locked anything down.
It was just against, you know, everything that we believed.
So that was an option we didn't pursue.
We could have ignored it and tried and just hoped that it all
went away in time, which again, we weren't into.
Or we had the option of going out and seeking the best
(05:21):
training we could get so that wecould steward what we had some
experience of in a previous church where I'd been on staff.
Not, not the planter. And so we, we, we kind of knew
the basics of how to handle the prophetic, but we really wanted
(05:43):
to do it properly and well. So we went off to a John Paul
Jackson out of Hearing God course in NE Scotland and it was
life changing. And then towards the end, John
Paul just was, you know, doing arambly thing before the end of
the end of the course. And he just said, oh, by the
(06:05):
way, we're, we're doing some dream interpretation on the
streets of Las Vegas and we've got people queuing around the
block to have their dreams interpreted.
And when he said that, it was like a harpoon had hit me in the
chest, and I turned to Dewey, and both of us knew that we had
(06:26):
been called in to do dream interpretation, biblical dream
interpretation. And the bizarre thing about it
was, I hardly ever dreamed and still don't.
Correction, I hardly ever remember them.
I know I dream, but I hardly ever remember them.
My wife's a dreamer, that's for sure.
But we really weren't interestedin that whole deal at all.
(06:49):
But we knew we'd been called andso then we ran John Paul's
training centre here in England and still do technically,
although it's under somebody else's leadership, John, John
Thomas. And you know, we've just carried
on doing this training thing, which I absolutely love to train
(07:10):
people and teach them how to do this thing.
And then I met this woman calledDoctor Tanya Harris and and
everything changed. Here we are.
Yeah, A friend introduced us, and you are one of the very
helpful beta readers for my book, which comes out later this
year. So, So appreciated your
(07:31):
expertise and your input, picking up on things.
I never saw it. That's the beauty of another
opinion. But it's interesting, isn't it,
John? Paul Jackson.
I don't know if our listeners have heard the name.
He has. He's not alive anymore, is he?
No. He died in 2015.
Okay, but he was a bit of a pioneer I think from the US
because. It's not.
(07:51):
Really a topic that people talk about very often is it's it's a
bit weird for for us, yeah, it is.
People think I'm a bit weird sometimes.
I try to, you know, downplay theweirdness.
But do. You.
Yeah, well, I I try and play it out.
You don't seem too weird, Tony. Yeah, I know.
That's why I play it out. Well, you know, it can get into
(08:14):
the realm of the weird, you know, and so our, our topic that
we're focusing on is common mistakes that people make in
this area. And perhaps one of them that I
thought of is that people can get weird.
But but on the other hand, and there is an element of the
unusual, perhaps because we're not unfamiliar with it, you
know, my book focuses a little bit on the Book of Revelation,
(08:39):
uses that as a bit of a model tohow we can understand our own
dreams and visions. And most people, when they read
that at first glance, find it a bit strange.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, some of them are very
strange. Yeah, but I think they're mostly
strange because we we don't livein that 1st century time, so we
don't understand a lot of it. But let's, so let's launch into
(09:02):
well, first of all, Tony, what about one of your dreams?
Have you had a favourite God dream that stands out to you?
Well, it's interesting, interesting question now because
of course you and I have done lots of them.
So there are lots to choose on, but one I absolutely love is a
(09:22):
really short dream which was sent to us by our friends in
Canada who are pastors and they do dream interpretation, but
because it was their dream, theyjust Anyway, it's a very short
dream. They were sitting on a bench, a
wooden bench in a billiard hall overlooking a billiard table.
(09:48):
And that was it. I love those sort of dreams
because they, there's not a lot to go on, you know, there's not
a lot to go on. So you end up having to ask lots
of questions and, and hoping forsome revelation because you're
just all at sea. But I like that.
It's kind of a real challenge. So I started to ask some
(10:10):
questions. And the obvious question, one of
the ones that John Paul Jackson taught us all, was why this?
Not that. So why billiards North America?
They all play pool or sometimes snooker, but billiards?
Nobody ever plays billiards in the north of America at all.
So. So why?
(10:31):
So I started doing a bit of Googling and I found out that in
Pool the highest break I believeis 147 and in snooker the
highest break is 147, but the highest break in billiards is
something like 1346. Oh, what?
(10:56):
For those of our audience who don't play pool or snooker or
billiards, can you explain what a break is?
Yeah, a break is when you visit the table, your turn and you
just go through all the balls onthe table or as or as many as
you can. And because billiards is a such
a strange game, you can carry onalmost infinitum.
(11:19):
Right, right, right, right. OK.
So I'm asking, you know, I'm asking for revelation.
I'm looking around and suddenly I suddenly I got it.
I just got a phrase in my head. They're waiting for their big
break. So I, I sent that to them.
They were absolutely thrilled because that was exactly what
(11:41):
they were waiting for in the in the natural.
And it was going to be obviouslya big break, too, perhaps bigger
than they anticipated because itwas billiards and not sneaker,
right? Absolutely no.
I love that. It's great.
It's so it's I have reflected onthis a lot because I find that
(12:01):
picture language is so fascinating and so effective in
communicating just like even that simple Little Dream that it
has no words. And yet the comparison because
the contrast between the fact that it wasn't snooker pool that
that they were used to playing, which was kind of, you know, low
(12:24):
level, but it was brilliant. So their break was coming, but
it was going to be bigger than almost ad infinitum, as you were
saying. And and and again, you can use
words, but when you use a symbolor a metaphor like that, it just
captures it so beautifully, doesn't it?
So that's a good, that's a good story.
(12:44):
That's that's one that was understood and received and a
descend to be from God. So let's let's let's go here.
Let's talk about all these horrible mistakes that people
make and the common ones, shall we?
And we talked about this beforehand, Tony, you came up
with seven or eight, which was alot really are people still
(13:05):
steer clear of this area because.
I've been doing that a long timetoo.
I've been doing it a long time too.
So yeah, just. Start with your top common
mistake. Well, I just want to say before
we get on to the mistakes, is everybody makes them and I make
them. I still make some of them, OK,
(13:27):
even after 2025 years of doing this stuff.
What's, what's the one? Well, I think the other thing to
say is that almost none of the dreams, the mistakes in dream
interpretation are irredeemable.It's not like the end of the
world comes. So don't worry.
(13:47):
It, it, it happens, I think one of the most regular ones that we
come across is this whole thing if, if, if you have a close
relative in a dream. So maybe it's your father, maybe
it's your mother, maybe it's a sister or a brother or, or you
know, a close friend or whatever.
And the assumption from the dreamer is that that is that
(14:10):
person in reality. And of course, dreams are
symbolic now, sometimes just to mess your head up.
Sometimes those are real people in the dream.
But most of the time, no, I can't say.
Most of the time, A lot of the time they are not.
(14:31):
They're symbolic of in the case of the Father, for example,
Father God. In the case of a brother, it
might be a Christian brother or a fellow, somebody you're very
close to. And the common mistake is, which
is why interpreting your own dreams is so difficult, because
(14:52):
you it's very hard to remain objective.
But it's I, I agree with you. This is a really common one,
isn't it? Because you see a person and you
immediately think it's about them.
Yeah, of. Course, you.
And if you understand that, you know, you, you had the dream of
the billiard room, you automatically knew that it was
(15:13):
symbolic because obviously they weren't about to be playing
billiards in your time anytime soon.
But when you see a person that makes you think it's not
symbolic. So.
Yeah. So tell us then.
OK. You see a person in the dream,
it's more likely to represent what?
Well, take somebody famous, for example.
Let's just say there's a celebrity.
(15:34):
We live in a celebrity, celebrity culture.
The questions to ask are, when Ithink of this person, whoever it
is in the dream, what do I associate with it?
What do I think they represent? Yes, yes, yes.
Yes, I mean, you know, you've probably had lots of these.
We've had lots of these where where somebody.
(15:54):
I had a few dreams, Tony where Iwas having coffee with Oprah.
Well, there you go. And like, it felt really real.
Like I was like, oh, it's just my buddy.
We're just hanging out with you.I'll be in New York somewhere.
I'm like, Oh yeah. And it's probably.
Only meant I wasn't going to be buddies with Oprah.
I was. I was going to say it's probably
only happened three times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(16:15):
So. But yeah, that's exactly right.
You know who, who. What does this person represent?
Oprah, for example, What does she represent?
Well, of course, the truth is she represents lots of different
things to with different people.But let's just assume it's God
sending the dream. He knows full well how you will
(16:36):
associate with Oprah Winfrey or whatever.
And so we need to ask that question, what does this mean to
me? Is there a special message here
about this person? Because this person, only she,
she or he is symbolic. Therefore it only represents
something and once you. Yeah.
(17:00):
Yeah, once you ask a simple question like that, it begins to
unravel much more easily. It's interesting you hear a lot
of people's dreams about they'redreaming about their pastor.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like, no, no, it's
not about your pastor. It's probably about.
Your spiritual life in something.
It was a nightmare. It was a nightmare.
(17:21):
No. That's it.
That is a good mistake, Tony. I I think you've nailed that.
Well, you know, we've got a few more that we can throw.
All right, OK, so just quick then.
If I have a dream, it's probablyabout a person.
It's probably symbolic, but whatif it really isn't?
Means I'm going to go and meet Oprah.
Well, that that will unravel, ofcourse, won't it?
(17:46):
You know that that's, that's what I would call a 5050
prophecy, you know, or it doesn't happen.
You just. Never know.
Do you watch this space? Yeah, all right #2 what's our
next common mistake? Next one.
There's a real bug there for me.OK, I'll confess that straight
(18:07):
up front. The use of dream symbol
dictionaries. Oh, you're the same as me.
They drive me nuts and I've tried to be gracious about it.
But. I'm like, oh, when people bring
out the dictionary and and go, it means this and that means
this. And I'm like, Oh no, yeah, all
right, you tell me you bug. You tell me the bugbear.
(18:29):
Well, the bugbear is quite simple.
I'm not totally against them because when we first started,
of course we bought one. I say weed, my wife and I,
because we tend to do dreams together and we like working in
teams. But we, we started off and it
was helpful because it got into our brain that this can
(18:51):
represent that the weakness, theweaknesses that any dream symbol
has to be assessed in the context of the dream in which it
occurs. In other words, some people like
dogs. Therefore, if they get a, a dog
in what I call a positive attitude, atmosphere, dream,
(19:13):
that's a good sign. But for me, for example, if it's
dogs in a dream, I'm happy, happy, happy.
But for some people who've been bitten by a dog when they were a
kid or early, that is not a gooddeal.
And if it's in a negative atmosphere dream, it's a very
bad deal. So it totally depends on the
(19:34):
context of the dream. If you go to your symbols
dictionary, you'll find, oh, dogis a man's best friend.
Almost inevitably, that's what they say.
So it just doesn't work that way.
It's a great way to start, but please, once you get into it a
little bit and your thinking's changed to a symbolic
metaphorical way of thinking, put them on the side.
(19:57):
Don't use them. I think that's a brilliant way
to describe it, Tony, and you'respot on.
You know, I remember reading a quote by Carl Jung.
He said that symbols and imageryis the language of the soul.
It's the language of art and music and culture.
And it's a language that I think, I'm not sure if it was
(20:22):
John Sanford that wrote a book called God's Forgotten Language,
but it's a language that has perhaps in the West not been
acknowledged or we are unfamiliar with.
So it's, it's, I agree with you,those symbolic dictionaries help
us to think symbolically to, to think the what the association
(20:43):
is, but they are so limited onceyou get how it works.
But again, I think it's about tapping into the language that
our, our heart already knows. We, we, we look at a painting
and there's that famous paintingof a storm and a bird sheltering
in a Cliff on a rock face. And there's this wild storm
(21:05):
going on. And the waves are flashing and
the Thunder and the grey storm. But this little bird is quietly
resting in this safe cleft of the rock.
And I think it's called peace the the principle piece.
And everyone sees that and understands that.
That's cool. Yeah.
That's the language of of pictures, isn't it?
(21:28):
So. So it's not that it's weird,
it's that it's just unfamiliar because we haven't articulated
before, which seems to be a problem more in the Western
world because we are so logic data.
Absolutely. Numbers.
We, you know, rational. We are talking to Tony Cook, the
(21:51):
leader of the Dream Academy based out of the UK, talking
about the common mistakes that we all make.
We'll be back in just a moment. There's nothing quite like
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Available in hard copy or digital at your favourite
bookstore and godconversations.com.
Welcome back to God conversations.
I am loving this chat with Tony.We, we are both big fans of
hearing God in dreams and visions and we've both seen a
lot of mistakes, but we've already only covered two.
And Tony, you've got 7 or 8, so let's push on to the next one.
(23:18):
What's another mistake that we make?
It's kind of it's another one along the symbols deal because
it's interpreting a dream just by the symbols and and what
people do is they go through thedream, they make a note of the
symbols, they go in the other hand, they have a symbols
dictionary and they try and interpret the dream just through
(23:42):
that and it and it's just like adog's dinner at the end.
You cannot do that. I I understand why you might
want to try and do that as a shortcut doesn't work, so don't
do it and say. People get fixated on the
details, don't they? Absolutely.
And of course, if you do that, you run into all sorts of
(24:04):
trouble. Dreams.
It's about the form of a dream, not the detail.
You get the form first, like theskeleton, and then you get the
detail with the bones and not the bones, the flesh and the and
the lungs and all that goes on top of it.
Yeah, try and do it the other way.
You you make a mess. It just falls apart very
(24:26):
quickly. You've got to kind of synthesise
all those different elements andfeel like what, what is the
main, what, what impacted me? What was the, what was, what was
hitting me the most? Because otherwise you can fixate
on different symbols in your dream.
I I've noticed people do that the same thing as well.
Yeah. So in that in that sense, it is
an art rather than a science, isn't it?
(24:47):
I think if you, if you cut it all up, you're you're being a
little bit scientific about it. You've got to step back.
And there's a certain sort of desperation about that because
basically what you, what you're kind of saying in parentheses
is, I don't know what this is about, but I know what those
symbols might mean. Yeah, that's it.
Love it. Very true.
What's another mistake for us? OK, this is a big one for me,
(25:14):
But the trouble is I get all wound up about this, and this is
dream interpreter, dream interpreters who lapse into
prophecy. Let me try and put some flesh on
that. The trouble is that a lot of the
people who get into dreams, of course, have a sort of
(25:35):
revelatory background, prophecy,etcetera.
And I get that, but it so bugs me when they start on a dream
and then they see something thattriggers the prophetic in them
and they suddenly they're out inthe Bay with the dolphins
frolicking about. Is is is it about letting the
(25:58):
dream speak for itself? Yeah, I guess so.
I mean, I think there's nothing wrong with with being stimulated
to prophecy during your interpretation at all.
That's great. But my view is very strongly
interpret the dream and then make a a real break and say,
(26:18):
well, as I was doing this, this is what I felt or this is what I
saw when I saw with with you, I felt this, this was, you know,
God was saying this. And the reason for that is it's
quite simple. They came to you for a dream
interpretation, not for your wonderful prophetic words.
Now you may have wonderful prophetic words, but they came
(26:40):
to you for a dream interpretation.
So do that. Do them the honour of doing the
dream, and then if God gives yousomething, then go for it.
But make sure that the dreamer knows, because otherwise they
can become really confused by the whole deal.
Yeah, and I think perhaps a sense of overzealousness is not
helpful in this area. Is it?
(27:00):
You, you, we just let the dream speak, let it say what it says
and don't try and find more in it.
It's, it's not, you know, going back to that story of the
billiard table, It's, it's not, well, how many colours are on
the table? And this ball means that, you
know, like people do go a littlebit over the top.
It's, it's keeping a little bit simple, isn't it?
(27:22):
I think, I think some one of themain assumptions that we start
with, particularly with God, dreams and visions, is that God
is a communicator, a very good communicator, the best.
And God frames God's messages ina way that we will understand so
that they're not, so that they're straightforward.
(27:43):
They're meant to be understood. They're not meant to be
complicated, even though they can be complex.
Divisions of Revelation give us a lot of layers of complexity
there. But at the same time, we come to
the understanding that God wantsto be heard.
God wants to be understood. And so I don't need to project
(28:04):
or be too overzealous in trying to, you know, find the secret
messages in every little elementbecause it does lead to
confusion, as you just said. Well, I think the other thing
that that we all need to be veryaware of if we're not careful is
that as we become more enthusiastic and go, you know,
(28:24):
we want to put our stamp on thisthing.
What we're doing is taking from the essence of what God's got in
his heart for the dreamer. And it points towards us rather
than towards God and his child. And once you start doing that,
you're in big trouble in my personal opinion.
(28:45):
How many mistakes is that? What are we up to, Tony?
No, but that's that's the sort of three pointer that.
One that covered a lot, didn't it?
What's your next? One next one.
This doesn't just apply to dreaminterpretation, it applies to
all sorts of ministry. It certainly applies to
prophetic the inability to discern between soul and spirit.
(29:13):
Oh, that's a big one. That is a big one, you know
that? Yeah, That's, you know.
I don't know about you. You probably get a lot in, in
your conferences, in your workshops and things, you know,
people come up and they give youa dream and they think they
believe it's from God. I even read some.
(29:34):
I even read in a book. Somewhere someone was saying
that every dream comes from. I'm like.
I know. No, why would you think that?
So that's a massive mistake. No, not every dream is from God
in the same way that not every thought we have.
Exactly. It's embarrassingly wrong.
(29:55):
So it is. Yeah.
And of course there is. There is a great little hack.
Practical hack. How do you know whether it's a
God dream or a soul dream? Do tell.
Or a black and white dream whichis the demonic.
If you get a dream from God, it isn't always true, but it's
(30:17):
probably true. It's it's from God if it's in
vibrant colour. Oh, I've never noticed that.
If, on the other hand, you get adream where the colours are
there but they're kind of muted,as if someone's put a sort of,
in film terms, a scrim over the lights and just dialled
(30:38):
everything back, it looks kind of muddy and foggy and it has a
lack of life and vibrancy in it.That's probably from your soul.
Interesting, I have never noticed that.
And if you get a black and whiteone, which is very unusual
because we're all colour, aren'twe all know colour.
But when we see a black and white one, it's it's a bit like
(31:00):
that. That film Schindler's List, it
was made more powerful by the fact that it was in black and
white. And then there was a little red
dressed girl who came up every now and then to.
Look out for that I I have found.
I think part of this mistake comes because people are so
eager to hear from God. Yes, and, and I understand that.
(31:25):
I think that's a, it's a good heart to have.
So we don't want to put that down.
But I think it's also worth understanding that the soul
dreams, the dream, the natural dreams that come just out of
product, the fact that we're human.
And scientists, neuroscientists now have some incredible
insights into the value of dreaming, that dreaming keeps us
(31:48):
healthy. It's like the filing cabinet of
our brains, sorting stuff out aswe sleep, solving problems,
making connections. It's, it's wonderful.
But even natural dreams can havevalue.
Oh my gosh, they really? Are great value.
Yeah, absolutely. They're really important because
God can point out things that are going on in your life or
attitudes you have or opinions that need sorting out.
(32:11):
Right. And the trouble is, so often
people say it's a soul dream that I'm not interested.
Well, wrong. Hello there.
Right? But you know, you know, and the
way that I understood this because I remember early on in
my dream journey, I remember thinking, but God made us and in
the same way that he has a healing mechanism in the body so
(32:32):
that when I'm injured, all of the immune system starts to kick
in to heal myself. The same thing happens as we
sleep psychologically, our emotions and our thoughts are
all being processed when we sleep.
So actually those natural dreamscan tell us a lot about
ourselves and be super helpful in that regard.
So, so perhaps you know, I oftentalk about a healthy dose of
(32:56):
scepticism around claiming God revelation just because we know
we can get it wrong. So it and if if it is from God,
it has a level of authority on it.
So I want to be slow to put words into God's mouth.
Absolutely. It's it's humility, isn't it?
Basic humility. You know something?
(33:17):
I'm not God and he's I'm not Godand he really is.
So let's just get that one straight.
But but yes, I mean, I love the neuroscience stuff.
I found out something from, what's his name, Matthew
somebody, brilliant neurosciencething, scientist over in the
States, he's English. But in the States I had never
(33:38):
realised before, sometimes when you wake up from a dream, you're
absolutely rigid. You can't move.
Doesn't that very often, but you're literally rigid, you
can't move. He told me what that was about.
Certain chemicals are released at that time when you're having
one of those scary dreams. And the reason for that is
(34:00):
you're paralysed so that you don't injure yourself exactly,
so you don't go rushing off and do something silly.
And I just think, Oh my gosh, God is so clever and kind.
That is so wonderful. Yeah, yeah, it is.
It's so clever, isn't it? And I think historically in the
West, in the West, we've kind ofrejected, you know, he said, oh,
(34:21):
it's just a dream. It's a silly thing.
But actually now the West is discovering through science that
they actually have that this value in dreaming and that from
a understanding about who God is, we would say, well, that's
because God made us for wholeness.
And so this process helps helps lead us towards wholeness.
You know, it's interesting, Tony, I've done quite a few
(34:45):
teaching within festivals that spiritual festivals in the city,
mind and body spirit festivals, they're called, I'm not talk
about the language dreams. And those people are
particularly interested in the spirit realm.
And I, I often say God could be speaking to them.
But what happens afterwards is that people share their dreams.
And what you see is that we're all made in the image of God.
(35:11):
So we're all, when you hear people's dreams, you can see
there's a direction towards wholeness which is quite
profound. And I love that.
So yeah, a natural dream can be valuable.
I think Tony, we've got time forone more mistake.
It's a bit of a worry that we'vegot so many mistakes, we're
going to run out of time. Well, actually, I think we've
(35:34):
probably done the mistakes, but but one of the things that I
want to say is because, you know, how can we avoid making
mistakes? That's what we all want to know
as Westerners, I must avoid making a mistake because I'm
wrong and it'll be embarrassing and all that.
Making mistakes is part of a learning process.
It's absolutely essential. It's not how many times you fall
(35:57):
down, it's how many times you get up afterwards.
And you know, if we're not open to making mistakes, we won't
learn. It's it's tough.
Nobody likes it but you. We really do have to grab onto
this thing when we're as dream interpreters.
I think it's an amazing privilege.
(36:18):
And what we're doing is trying to find through questions,
through discernment, through ourknowledge and skill set, to find
out what the essence of the message from the Father's heart
to the dreamer is. Yes, that's a big
responsibility. But if you make a mistake, it's
(36:40):
not the end of the world. Because if God wants to tell us
something so badly, he'll write it in the butter in the fridge
so that when we open the door, it'll be there staring at us.
I'm a firm believer of that. And so you make mistakes, it's
OK, but learn from them. That's the key.
Issue I, I, I think, I think what I'm hearing from you Tony,
(37:03):
is that it is a process. It is.
It really is. I know I heard it.
I heard it said once. It's more art than science.
And so the learning process doesinvolve some working out and
some stumbling. And, and given that that is
true, and I think what we were talking about earlier about the
(37:24):
need for humility is really important.
So to be open and, and, and thisis where we see in the beauty of
the new covenant is that the Holy Spirit was poured out on
sons and daughters, young and old.
And so discernment, recognising the voice of the Spirit happens
within community. So we need to be able to talk
about our experiences with thosewho know and love us and who can
(37:47):
point us towards God's heart in Jesus.
I think that's crucial in this process.
And perhaps those kind of more serious mistakes can be avoided
when we do that. Yeah.
And, and you know, I think the biggest mistake of all is not to
get trained properly. Yes, it's the sort of arrogance
somehow that that lack of humility and and servanthood
(38:13):
that says actually I need to know how to do this properly.
I can do damage if I don't get trained properly.
Therefore, that's what I need todo and and it takes that.
Provides a nice little segue into where do we find about more
about what you're doing. You run a dream Academy.
(38:34):
We have a good dreams course. I think that this learning needs
to happen more and so if someonewanted to find you and learn a
bit more about what you do, where would they find you, Tony?
Well. They can go to
www.thedreamacademyalloneword.online.Right.
(38:56):
Awesome. It's unusual, but.
And I just want to, yeah, I wantto encourage our our listeners
to really commit to the process.I often, I was just reflecting
on this as you were talking willoften get people contacting us
and say, Tanya, can you help interpret this dream?
And I would, I say, I would muchprefer that you go on a journey
(39:17):
of learning to do this yourself.And the problem is it's too late
at that point to go learning because you've had the dream and
you want to know what it means now.
So yeah, I encourage our listeners to to to invest some
time. If God truly does speak in dream
visions, as scripture says that he does the most favourite form
(39:37):
of communication, then it's definitely worth committing
yourself to doing some learning and get into a community.
That way you can talk about these things.
The value of the Dream Academy is that you have an online
community. Is that right?
We do and we do regular events at sort of where the the public
can go and bring their dreams tous online and we do us what we
(40:00):
call a dream party. And it's such fun.
And I think that's the thing, you know, the learning process
with dreams is such fun. It really is.
Don't, don't back off because itsounds a bit weird.
Press in and let's take this thing to the next level.
(40:21):
Richard Brother, thank you againTony for coming onto God
Conversations podcast today. It's been wonderful to have you.
Bless you heaps and may the British weather improve for you
and. I hope it, I hope it rains, and
certainly too. Oh no, just get cold.
We don't want rain, we just wantcool.
Bye for now. Thanks for listening to God
(40:42):
Conversations with Tanya Harris.Don't miss the next episode by
subscribing to the show on your favourite podcast.
And remember, the Holy Spirit was given so we could all hear
God's voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation.
Good conversations with Tanya Harris let.
Me ask you that question what does God tell Well you know
Thunder life is. Mother Teresa.
Someone asked her. When did God speak to you?
And she said. Whatever he wants.
So essentially the Bible is a collection of God conversations
if you. Like I had a.
Vision of a car accident and I'msitting on the couch thinking
(00:21):
why have I just seen this? How could I know if God was
speaking to me? How could I know that that dream
or that thought was actually just me thinking about how I
said the bad? Jesus said we'd recognise his
voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation. Hearing God in a dream can be a
(00:42):
life changing experience, but can also be a bit confusing.
The process of dream interpretation is not well
understood in our day, and it's therefore subject to plenty of
mistakes and abuse. It's no wonder the claim to God
dreams is often met with scepticism, disinterest and
sometimes even mockery. Dream interpretation is more art
(01:05):
than science, so it isn't alwaysstraightforward or formulaic.
But there are some principles wecan all learn that will help us
hear God's voice more clearly inthis creative and powerful form.
Hi and welcome to the God Conversations podcast.
My name is Tanya Harris, and I'ma pastor, practical theologian,
(01:25):
author, and the founding director of God Conversations
and Ministry that equips you to recognise and respond to God's
voice. Welcome to the show.
It's a fascinating one. We're going to talk about the
common mistakes people make whenlearning to hear God in dreams.
I often think it always looks sosimple when we read in the Bible
(01:48):
things like, and the Lord spoke to Abraham in a vision of the
night, or the Lord spoke to Joseph in a dream, and then off
it goes into the story. But when it comes to
understanding our own dreams, there are several things that
can help us in the process. And in this podcast, we're going
to unpack some of those dynamics.
(02:09):
And our goal is to help you to confidently discern God's voice
as you sleep. Now, I should also let you know
that here at God Conversations, we are in the planning for
something super special. I haven't told many people, but
in October of this year, we're launching my new book, God
Dreams, How to Hear God's voice in dreams and visions.
(02:32):
And you know this book, like some of the others too, but this
one's been 10 years in the making, and you might have
already gotten a taster if you've done our God Dreams on
Loss online course or you've been to one of our seminars.
But God Dreams, the book goes a whole lot deeper and it even
draws on the visions from the Book of Revelation in the Bible.
(02:52):
So it's an exciting book that I'm sure you're going to enjoy
reading, and I'm super excited about it.
I believe it's going to help a lot of people across the world,
so we'll keep you posted as we get closer to that launch date.
But back to today's episode. Let me introduce you to our
special guest. This man is the founder of the
(03:12):
Dream Academy, an online training and support site for
dream interpreters based out of the UK.
He was trained under the very well known US Minister John Paul
Jackson and has been involved inpastoral ministry for many
years. A huge welcome to the show.
Tony Cook. It is so great to have you on
(03:34):
the show. Tony, welcome.
Well, thank you so much. It's a real privilege.
A fellow dreamer from across theplanet all the way from the UK.
We've just had a conversation around how cold it and grey it
is over there and how hot and stinky it is over here.
So in keeping with our conversations about the weather,
(03:54):
that we won't talk about the whinging palms and the weather
will be. Indeed, yes.
So we've, we've just been chatting a little bit about your
area of expertise and our sharedlove of God speaking in dreams
and visions. I always joke that God speaks to
me the most in this area becausemy brain is too busy to get
(04:17):
through to me during the day. But Tony, for the sake of our
listeners who are all around theworld, tell us a little bit
about yourself. OK, well apart from being 190
years old, I got into this wholething because Duy Duy, my
(04:38):
wonderful long suffering wife and I were pastoring a church, a
Vineyard church here in the UK and suddenly it was patently
obvious the prophetic was breaking out and we have three
options. We could have just locked it
down and made sure that nobody ventured into the prophetic,
(05:01):
which we had never locked anything down.
It was just against, you know, everything that we believed.
So that was an option we didn't pursue.
We could have ignored it and tried and just hoped that it all
went away in time, which again, we weren't into.
Or we had the option of going out and seeking the best
(05:21):
training we could get so that wecould steward what we had some
experience of in a previous church where I'd been on staff.
Not, not the planter. And so we, we, we kind of knew
the basics of how to handle the prophetic, but we really wanted
(05:43):
to do it properly and well. So we went off to a John Paul
Jackson out of Hearing God course in NE Scotland and it was
life changing. And then towards the end, John
Paul just was, you know, doing arambly thing before the end of
the end of the course. And he just said, oh, by the
(06:05):
way, we're, we're doing some dream interpretation on the
streets of Las Vegas and we've got people queuing around the
block to have their dreams interpreted.
And when he said that, it was like a harpoon had hit me in the
chest, and I turned to Dewey, and both of us knew that we had
(06:26):
been called in to do dream interpretation, biblical dream
interpretation. And the bizarre thing about it
was, I hardly ever dreamed and still don't.
Correction, I hardly ever remember them.
I know I dream, but I hardly ever remember them.
My wife's a dreamer, that's for sure.
But we really weren't interestedin that whole deal at all.
(06:49):
But we knew we'd been called andso then we ran John Paul's
training centre here in England and still do technically,
although it's under somebody else's leadership, John, John
Thomas. And you know, we've just carried
on doing this training thing, which I absolutely love to train
(07:10):
people and teach them how to do this thing.
And then I met this woman calledDoctor Tanya Harris and and
everything changed. Here we are.
Yeah, A friend introduced us, and you are one of the very
helpful beta readers for my book, which comes out later this
year. So, So appreciated your
(07:31):
expertise and your input, picking up on things.
I never saw it. That's the beauty of another
opinion. But it's interesting, isn't it,
John? Paul Jackson.
I don't know if our listeners have heard the name.
He has. He's not alive anymore, is he?
No. He died in 2015.
Okay, but he was a bit of a pioneer I think from the US
because. It's not.
(07:51):
Really a topic that people talk about very often is it's it's a
bit weird for for us, yeah, it is.
People think I'm a bit weird sometimes.
I try to, you know, downplay theweirdness.
But do. You.
Yeah, well, I I try and play it out.
You don't seem too weird, Tony. Yeah, I know.
That's why I play it out. Well, you know, it can get into
(08:14):
the realm of the weird, you know, and so our, our topic that
we're focusing on is common mistakes that people make in
this area. And perhaps one of them that I
thought of is that people can get weird.
But but on the other hand, and there is an element of the
unusual, perhaps because we're not unfamiliar with it, you
know, my book focuses a little bit on the Book of Revelation,
(08:39):
uses that as a bit of a model tohow we can understand our own
dreams and visions. And most people, when they read
that at first glance, find it a bit strange.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, some of them are very
strange. Yeah, but I think they're mostly
strange because we we don't livein that 1st century time, so we
don't understand a lot of it. But let's, so let's launch into
(09:02):
well, first of all, Tony, what about one of your dreams?
Have you had a favourite God dream that stands out to you?
Well, it's interesting, interesting question now because
of course you and I have done lots of them.
So there are lots to choose on, but one I absolutely love is a
(09:22):
really short dream which was sent to us by our friends in
Canada who are pastors and they do dream interpretation, but
because it was their dream, theyjust Anyway, it's a very short
dream. They were sitting on a bench, a
wooden bench in a billiard hall overlooking a billiard table.
(09:48):
And that was it. I love those sort of dreams
because they, there's not a lot to go on, you know, there's not
a lot to go on. So you end up having to ask lots
of questions and, and hoping forsome revelation because you're
just all at sea. But I like that.
It's kind of a real challenge. So I started to ask some
(10:10):
questions. And the obvious question, one of
the ones that John Paul Jackson taught us all, was why this?
Not that. So why billiards North America?
They all play pool or sometimes snooker, but billiards?
Nobody ever plays billiards in the north of America at all.
So. So why?
(10:31):
So I started doing a bit of Googling and I found out that in
Pool the highest break I believeis 147 and in snooker the
highest break is 147, but the highest break in billiards is
something like 1346. Oh, what?
(10:56):
For those of our audience who don't play pool or snooker or
billiards, can you explain what a break is?
Yeah, a break is when you visit the table, your turn and you
just go through all the balls onthe table or as or as many as
you can. And because billiards is a such
a strange game, you can carry onalmost infinitum.
(11:19):
Right, right, right, right. OK.
So I'm asking, you know, I'm asking for revelation.
I'm looking around and suddenly I suddenly I got it.
I just got a phrase in my head. They're waiting for their big
break. So I, I sent that to them.
They were absolutely thrilled because that was exactly what
(11:41):
they were waiting for in the in the natural.
And it was going to be obviouslya big break, too, perhaps bigger
than they anticipated because itwas billiards and not sneaker,
right? Absolutely no.
I love that. It's great.
It's so it's I have reflected onthis a lot because I find that
(12:01):
picture language is so fascinating and so effective in
communicating just like even that simple Little Dream that it
has no words. And yet the comparison because
the contrast between the fact that it wasn't snooker pool that
that they were used to playing, which was kind of, you know, low
(12:24):
level, but it was brilliant. So their break was coming, but
it was going to be bigger than almost ad infinitum, as you were
saying. And and and again, you can use
words, but when you use a symbolor a metaphor like that, it just
captures it so beautifully, doesn't it?
So that's a good, that's a good story.
(12:44):
That's that's one that was understood and received and a
descend to be from God. So let's let's let's go here.
Let's talk about all these horrible mistakes that people
make and the common ones, shall we?
And we talked about this beforehand, Tony, you came up
with seven or eight, which was alot really are people still
(13:05):
steer clear of this area because.
I've been doing that a long timetoo.
I've been doing it a long time too.
So yeah, just. Start with your top common
mistake. Well, I just want to say before
we get on to the mistakes, is everybody makes them and I make
them. I still make some of them, OK,
(13:27):
even after 2025 years of doing this stuff.
What's, what's the one? Well, I think the other thing to
say is that almost none of the dreams, the mistakes in dream
interpretation are irredeemable.It's not like the end of the
world comes. So don't worry.
(13:47):
It, it, it happens, I think one of the most regular ones that we
come across is this whole thing if, if, if you have a close
relative in a dream. So maybe it's your father, maybe
it's your mother, maybe it's a sister or a brother or, or you
know, a close friend or whatever.
And the assumption from the dreamer is that that is that
(14:10):
person in reality. And of course, dreams are
symbolic now, sometimes just to mess your head up.
Sometimes those are real people in the dream.
But most of the time, no, I can't say.
Most of the time, A lot of the time they are not.
(14:31):
They're symbolic of in the case of the Father, for example,
Father God. In the case of a brother, it
might be a Christian brother or a fellow, somebody you're very
close to. And the common mistake is, which
is why interpreting your own dreams is so difficult, because
(14:52):
you it's very hard to remain objective.
But it's I, I agree with you. This is a really common one,
isn't it? Because you see a person and you
immediately think it's about them.
Yeah, of. Course, you.
And if you understand that, you know, you, you had the dream of
the billiard room, you automatically knew that it was
(15:13):
symbolic because obviously they weren't about to be playing
billiards in your time anytime soon.
But when you see a person that makes you think it's not
symbolic. So.
Yeah. So tell us then.
OK. You see a person in the dream,
it's more likely to represent what?
Well, take somebody famous, for example.
Let's just say there's a celebrity.
(15:34):
We live in a celebrity, celebrity culture.
The questions to ask are, when Ithink of this person, whoever it
is in the dream, what do I associate with it?
What do I think they represent? Yes, yes, yes.
Yes, I mean, you know, you've probably had lots of these.
We've had lots of these where where somebody.
(15:54):
I had a few dreams, Tony where Iwas having coffee with Oprah.
Well, there you go. And like, it felt really real.
Like I was like, oh, it's just my buddy.
We're just hanging out with you.I'll be in New York somewhere.
I'm like, Oh yeah. And it's probably.
Only meant I wasn't going to be buddies with Oprah.
I was. I was going to say it's probably
only happened three times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(16:15):
So. But yeah, that's exactly right.
You know who, who. What does this person represent?
Oprah, for example, What does she represent?
Well, of course, the truth is she represents lots of different
things to with different people.But let's just assume it's God
sending the dream. He knows full well how you will
(16:36):
associate with Oprah Winfrey or whatever.
And so we need to ask that question, what does this mean to
me? Is there a special message here
about this person? Because this person, only she,
she or he is symbolic. Therefore it only represents
something and once you. Yeah.
(17:00):
Yeah, once you ask a simple question like that, it begins to
unravel much more easily. It's interesting you hear a lot
of people's dreams about they'redreaming about their pastor.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like, no, no, it's
not about your pastor. It's probably about.
Your spiritual life in something.
It was a nightmare. It was a nightmare.
(17:21):
No. That's it.
That is a good mistake, Tony. I I think you've nailed that.
Well, you know, we've got a few more that we can throw.
All right, OK, so just quick then.
If I have a dream, it's probablyabout a person.
It's probably symbolic, but whatif it really isn't?
Means I'm going to go and meet Oprah.
Well, that that will unravel, ofcourse, won't it?
(17:46):
You know that that's, that's what I would call a 5050
prophecy, you know, or it doesn't happen.
You just. Never know.
Do you watch this space? Yeah, all right #2 what's our
next common mistake? Next one.
There's a real bug there for me.OK, I'll confess that straight
(18:07):
up front. The use of dream symbol
dictionaries. Oh, you're the same as me.
They drive me nuts and I've tried to be gracious about it.
But. I'm like, oh, when people bring
out the dictionary and and go, it means this and that means
this. And I'm like, Oh no, yeah, all
right, you tell me you bug. You tell me the bugbear.
(18:29):
Well, the bugbear is quite simple.
I'm not totally against them because when we first started,
of course we bought one. I say weed, my wife and I,
because we tend to do dreams together and we like working in
teams. But we, we started off and it
was helpful because it got into our brain that this can
(18:51):
represent that the weakness, theweaknesses that any dream symbol
has to be assessed in the context of the dream in which it
occurs. In other words, some people like
dogs. Therefore, if they get a, a dog
in what I call a positive attitude, atmosphere, dream,
(19:13):
that's a good sign. But for me, for example, if it's
dogs in a dream, I'm happy, happy, happy.
But for some people who've been bitten by a dog when they were a
kid or early, that is not a gooddeal.
And if it's in a negative atmosphere dream, it's a very
bad deal. So it totally depends on the
(19:34):
context of the dream. If you go to your symbols
dictionary, you'll find, oh, dogis a man's best friend.
Almost inevitably, that's what they say.
So it just doesn't work that way.
It's a great way to start, but please, once you get into it a
little bit and your thinking's changed to a symbolic
metaphorical way of thinking, put them on the side.
(19:57):
Don't use them. I think that's a brilliant way
to describe it, Tony, and you'respot on.
You know, I remember reading a quote by Carl Jung.
He said that symbols and imageryis the language of the soul.
It's the language of art and music and culture.
And it's a language that I think, I'm not sure if it was
(20:22):
John Sanford that wrote a book called God's Forgotten Language,
but it's a language that has perhaps in the West not been
acknowledged or we are unfamiliar with.
So it's, it's, I agree with you,those symbolic dictionaries help
us to think symbolically to, to think the what the association
(20:43):
is, but they are so limited onceyou get how it works.
But again, I think it's about tapping into the language that
our, our heart already knows. We, we, we look at a painting
and there's that famous paintingof a storm and a bird sheltering
in a Cliff on a rock face. And there's this wild storm
(21:05):
going on. And the waves are flashing and
the Thunder and the grey storm. But this little bird is quietly
resting in this safe cleft of the rock.
And I think it's called peace the the principle piece.
And everyone sees that and understands that.
That's cool. Yeah.
That's the language of of pictures, isn't it?
(21:28):
So. So it's not that it's weird,
it's that it's just unfamiliar because we haven't articulated
before, which seems to be a problem more in the Western
world because we are so logic data.
Absolutely. Numbers.
We, you know, rational. We are talking to Tony Cook, the
(21:51):
leader of the Dream Academy based out of the UK, talking
about the common mistakes that we all make.
We'll be back in just a moment. There's nothing quite like
hearing God's voice. With one word.
People's lives are forever changed.
But at the same time, hearing God's voice is also risky.
(22:12):
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How do we know it's God? And what does it all look like
in the life of the Church? In my book, The Church Who Hears
God's Voice, I bring history, theology, and real life
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questions. The book provides both the
(22:34):
comprehensive theology and pastoral strategy for building a
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happen, and God's mission is fulfilled.
May we be the Church who hears God's voice.
(22:54):
Available in hard copy or digital at your favourite
bookstore and godconversations.com.
Welcome back to God conversations.
I am loving this chat with Tony.We, we are both big fans of
hearing God in dreams and visions and we've both seen a
lot of mistakes, but we've already only covered two.
And Tony, you've got 7 or 8, so let's push on to the next one.
(23:18):
What's another mistake that we make?
It's kind of it's another one along the symbols deal because
it's interpreting a dream just by the symbols and and what
people do is they go through thedream, they make a note of the
symbols, they go in the other hand, they have a symbols
dictionary and they try and interpret the dream just through
(23:42):
that and it and it's just like adog's dinner at the end.
You cannot do that. I I understand why you might
want to try and do that as a shortcut doesn't work, so don't
do it and say. People get fixated on the
details, don't they? Absolutely.
And of course, if you do that, you run into all sorts of
(24:04):
trouble. Dreams.
It's about the form of a dream, not the detail.
You get the form first, like theskeleton, and then you get the
detail with the bones and not the bones, the flesh and the and
the lungs and all that goes on top of it.
Yeah, try and do it the other way.
You you make a mess. It just falls apart very
(24:26):
quickly. You've got to kind of synthesise
all those different elements andfeel like what, what is the
main, what, what impacted me? What was the, what was, what was
hitting me the most? Because otherwise you can fixate
on different symbols in your dream.
I I've noticed people do that the same thing as well.
Yeah. So in that in that sense, it is
an art rather than a science, isn't it?
(24:47):
I think if you, if you cut it all up, you're you're being a
little bit scientific about it. You've got to step back.
And there's a certain sort of desperation about that because
basically what you, what you're kind of saying in parentheses
is, I don't know what this is about, but I know what those
symbols might mean. Yeah, that's it.
Love it. Very true.
What's another mistake for us? OK, this is a big one for me,
(25:14):
But the trouble is I get all wound up about this, and this is
dream interpreter, dream interpreters who lapse into
prophecy. Let me try and put some flesh on
that. The trouble is that a lot of the
people who get into dreams, of course, have a sort of
(25:35):
revelatory background, prophecy,etcetera.
And I get that, but it so bugs me when they start on a dream
and then they see something thattriggers the prophetic in them
and they suddenly they're out inthe Bay with the dolphins
frolicking about. Is is is it about letting the
(25:58):
dream speak for itself? Yeah, I guess so.
I mean, I think there's nothing wrong with with being stimulated
to prophecy during your interpretation at all.
That's great. But my view is very strongly
interpret the dream and then make a a real break and say,
(26:18):
well, as I was doing this, this is what I felt or this is what I
saw when I saw with with you, I felt this, this was, you know,
God was saying this. And the reason for that is it's
quite simple. They came to you for a dream
interpretation, not for your wonderful prophetic words.
Now you may have wonderful prophetic words, but they came
(26:40):
to you for a dream interpretation.
So do that. Do them the honour of doing the
dream, and then if God gives yousomething, then go for it.
But make sure that the dreamer knows, because otherwise they
can become really confused by the whole deal.
Yeah, and I think perhaps a sense of overzealousness is not
helpful in this area. Is it?
(27:00):
You, you, we just let the dream speak, let it say what it says
and don't try and find more in it.
It's, it's not, you know, going back to that story of the
billiard table, It's, it's not, well, how many colours are on
the table? And this ball means that, you
know, like people do go a littlebit over the top.
It's, it's keeping a little bit simple, isn't it?
(27:22):
I think, I think some one of themain assumptions that we start
with, particularly with God, dreams and visions, is that God
is a communicator, a very good communicator, the best.
And God frames God's messages ina way that we will understand so
that they're not, so that they're straightforward.
(27:43):
They're meant to be understood. They're not meant to be
complicated, even though they can be complex.
Divisions of Revelation give us a lot of layers of complexity
there. But at the same time, we come to
the understanding that God wantsto be heard.
God wants to be understood. And so I don't need to project
(28:04):
or be too overzealous in trying to, you know, find the secret
messages in every little elementbecause it does lead to
confusion, as you just said. Well, I think the other thing
that that we all need to be veryaware of if we're not careful is
that as we become more enthusiastic and go, you know,
(28:24):
we want to put our stamp on thisthing.
What we're doing is taking from the essence of what God's got in
his heart for the dreamer. And it points towards us rather
than towards God and his child. And once you start doing that,
you're in big trouble in my personal opinion.
(28:45):
How many mistakes is that? What are we up to, Tony?
No, but that's that's the sort of three pointer that.
One that covered a lot, didn't it?
What's your next? One next one.
This doesn't just apply to dreaminterpretation, it applies to
all sorts of ministry. It certainly applies to
prophetic the inability to discern between soul and spirit.
(29:13):
Oh, that's a big one. That is a big one, you know
that? Yeah, That's, you know.
I don't know about you. You probably get a lot in, in
your conferences, in your workshops and things, you know,
people come up and they give youa dream and they think they
believe it's from God. I even read some.
(29:34):
I even read in a book. Somewhere someone was saying
that every dream comes from. I'm like.
I know. No, why would you think that?
So that's a massive mistake. No, not every dream is from God
in the same way that not every thought we have.
Exactly. It's embarrassingly wrong.
(29:55):
So it is. Yeah.
And of course there is. There is a great little hack.
Practical hack. How do you know whether it's a
God dream or a soul dream? Do tell.
Or a black and white dream whichis the demonic.
If you get a dream from God, it isn't always true, but it's
(30:17):
probably true. It's it's from God if it's in
vibrant colour. Oh, I've never noticed that.
If, on the other hand, you get adream where the colours are
there but they're kind of muted,as if someone's put a sort of,
in film terms, a scrim over the lights and just dialled
(30:38):
everything back, it looks kind of muddy and foggy and it has a
lack of life and vibrancy in it.That's probably from your soul.
Interesting, I have never noticed that.
And if you get a black and whiteone, which is very unusual
because we're all colour, aren'twe all know colour.
But when we see a black and white one, it's it's a bit like
(31:00):
that. That film Schindler's List, it
was made more powerful by the fact that it was in black and
white. And then there was a little red
dressed girl who came up every now and then to.
Look out for that I I have found.
I think part of this mistake comes because people are so
eager to hear from God. Yes, and, and I understand that.
(31:25):
I think that's a, it's a good heart to have.
So we don't want to put that down.
But I think it's also worth understanding that the soul
dreams, the dream, the natural dreams that come just out of
product, the fact that we're human.
And scientists, neuroscientists now have some incredible
insights into the value of dreaming, that dreaming keeps us
(31:48):
healthy. It's like the filing cabinet of
our brains, sorting stuff out aswe sleep, solving problems,
making connections. It's, it's wonderful.
But even natural dreams can havevalue.
Oh my gosh, they really? Are great value.
Yeah, absolutely. They're really important because
God can point out things that are going on in your life or
attitudes you have or opinions that need sorting out.
(32:11):
Right. And the trouble is, so often
people say it's a soul dream that I'm not interested.
Well, wrong. Hello there.
Right? But you know, you know, and the
way that I understood this because I remember early on in
my dream journey, I remember thinking, but God made us and in
the same way that he has a healing mechanism in the body so
(32:32):
that when I'm injured, all of the immune system starts to kick
in to heal myself. The same thing happens as we
sleep psychologically, our emotions and our thoughts are
all being processed when we sleep.
So actually those natural dreamscan tell us a lot about
ourselves and be super helpful in that regard.
So, so perhaps you know, I oftentalk about a healthy dose of
(32:56):
scepticism around claiming God revelation just because we know
we can get it wrong. So it and if if it is from God,
it has a level of authority on it.
So I want to be slow to put words into God's mouth.
Absolutely. It's it's humility, isn't it?
Basic humility. You know something?
(33:17):
I'm not God and he's I'm not Godand he really is.
So let's just get that one straight.
But but yes, I mean, I love the neuroscience stuff.
I found out something from, what's his name, Matthew
somebody, brilliant neurosciencething, scientist over in the
States, he's English. But in the States I had never
(33:38):
realised before, sometimes when you wake up from a dream, you're
absolutely rigid. You can't move.
Doesn't that very often, but you're literally rigid, you
can't move. He told me what that was about.
Certain chemicals are released at that time when you're having
one of those scary dreams. And the reason for that is
(34:00):
you're paralysed so that you don't injure yourself exactly,
so you don't go rushing off and do something silly.
And I just think, Oh my gosh, God is so clever and kind.
That is so wonderful. Yeah, yeah, it is.
It's so clever, isn't it? And I think historically in the
West, in the West, we've kind ofrejected, you know, he said, oh,
(34:21):
it's just a dream. It's a silly thing.
But actually now the West is discovering through science that
they actually have that this value in dreaming and that from
a understanding about who God is, we would say, well, that's
because God made us for wholeness.
And so this process helps helps lead us towards wholeness.
You know, it's interesting, Tony, I've done quite a few
(34:45):
teaching within festivals that spiritual festivals in the city,
mind and body spirit festivals, they're called, I'm not talk
about the language dreams. And those people are
particularly interested in the spirit realm.
And I, I often say God could be speaking to them.
But what happens afterwards is that people share their dreams.
And what you see is that we're all made in the image of God.
(35:11):
So we're all, when you hear people's dreams, you can see
there's a direction towards wholeness which is quite
profound. And I love that.
So yeah, a natural dream can be valuable.
I think Tony, we've got time forone more mistake.
It's a bit of a worry that we'vegot so many mistakes, we're
going to run out of time. Well, actually, I think we've
(35:34):
probably done the mistakes, but but one of the things that I
want to say is because, you know, how can we avoid making
mistakes? That's what we all want to know
as Westerners, I must avoid making a mistake because I'm
wrong and it'll be embarrassing and all that.
Making mistakes is part of a learning process.
It's absolutely essential. It's not how many times you fall
(35:57):
down, it's how many times you get up afterwards.
And you know, if we're not open to making mistakes, we won't
learn. It's it's tough.
Nobody likes it but you. We really do have to grab onto
this thing when we're as dream interpreters.
I think it's an amazing privilege.
(36:18):
And what we're doing is trying to find through questions,
through discernment, through ourknowledge and skill set, to find
out what the essence of the message from the Father's heart
to the dreamer is. Yes, that's a big
responsibility. But if you make a mistake, it's
(36:40):
not the end of the world. Because if God wants to tell us
something so badly, he'll write it in the butter in the fridge
so that when we open the door, it'll be there staring at us.
I'm a firm believer of that. And so you make mistakes, it's
OK, but learn from them. That's the key.
Issue I, I, I think, I think what I'm hearing from you Tony,
(37:03):
is that it is a process. It is.
It really is. I know I heard it.
I heard it said once. It's more art than science.
And so the learning process doesinvolve some working out and
some stumbling. And, and given that that is
true, and I think what we were talking about earlier about the
(37:24):
need for humility is really important.
So to be open and, and, and thisis where we see in the beauty of
the new covenant is that the Holy Spirit was poured out on
sons and daughters, young and old.
And so discernment, recognising the voice of the Spirit happens
within community. So we need to be able to talk
about our experiences with thosewho know and love us and who can
(37:47):
point us towards God's heart in Jesus.
I think that's crucial in this process.
And perhaps those kind of more serious mistakes can be avoided
when we do that. Yeah.
And, and you know, I think the biggest mistake of all is not to
get trained properly. Yes, it's the sort of arrogance
somehow that that lack of humility and and servanthood
(38:13):
that says actually I need to know how to do this properly.
I can do damage if I don't get trained properly.
Therefore, that's what I need todo and and it takes that.
Provides a nice little segue into where do we find about more
about what you're doing. You run a dream Academy.
(38:34):
We have a good dreams course. I think that this learning needs
to happen more and so if someonewanted to find you and learn a
bit more about what you do, where would they find you, Tony?
Well. They can go to
www.thedreamacademyalloneword.online.Right.
(38:56):
Awesome. It's unusual, but.
And I just want to, yeah, I wantto encourage our our listeners
to really commit to the process.I often, I was just reflecting
on this as you were talking willoften get people contacting us
and say, Tanya, can you help interpret this dream?
And I would, I say, I would muchprefer that you go on a journey
(39:17):
of learning to do this yourself.And the problem is it's too late
at that point to go learning because you've had the dream and
you want to know what it means now.
So yeah, I encourage our listeners to to to invest some
time. If God truly does speak in dream
visions, as scripture says that he does the most favourite form
(39:37):
of communication, then it's definitely worth committing
yourself to doing some learning and get into a community.
That way you can talk about these things.
The value of the Dream Academy is that you have an online
community. Is that right?
We do and we do regular events at sort of where the the public
can go and bring their dreams tous online and we do us what we
(40:00):
call a dream party. And it's such fun.
And I think that's the thing, you know, the learning process
with dreams is such fun. It really is.
Don't, don't back off because itsounds a bit weird.
Press in and let's take this thing to the next level.
(40:21):
Richard Brother, thank you againTony for coming onto God
Conversations podcast today. It's been wonderful to have you.
Bless you heaps and may the British weather improve for you
and. I hope it, I hope it rains, and
certainly too. Oh no, just get cold.
We don't want rain, we just wantcool.
Bye for now. Thanks for listening to God
(40:42):
Conversations with Tanya Harris.Don't miss the next episode by
subscribing to the show on your favourite podcast.
And remember, the Holy Spirit was given so we could all hear
God's voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation.
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