September 23, 2024 • 34 mins
The Salvation Army is an incredible movement that works in 136 countries around the world and began in the streets of nineteenth century London by William and Catherine Booth. It is both a church and charity, known for its focus on justice, compassion, and supporting the welfare of others. But did you know that the Salvos began in the power and revelation of the Holy Spirit?
On this episode of God Conversations, we talk to Major Kim Haworth about the God conversations that shaped the Salvation Army – affectionately known (in Australia!) as the Salvos. Kim is a major in the Salvos and leads the state of NSW/ACT as Divisional commander. She explains that the Holy Spirit was at the centre of the Salvation Army work from the very beginning.
You’ll hear about:
- Kim’s story – how she made a decision to follow Jesus at age 31. Kim tells of her belief in God in her earlier years, but how a life-changing encounter in church introduced her to relationship with God at a personal level.
- Kim’s unexpected God conversation that led her into ministry with the Salvation Army.
I heard in my mind, “you know you’re going to be an officer don’t you?” To which I replied “yes!” and felt this crazy sense of peace from the top of my head to the tips of my toes – that is until I realised what I said!
- The origins of the Salvation Army and how the Holy Spirit led William Booth to reach “the lost, last and least.” These were the people other churches weren’t reaching because they were the “tough ones.” Booth’s approach was to raise up a volunteer army to fight for God’s kingdom in a spiritual battle. He used military vocabulary because it was well respected and widely understood at the time.
- The fundamental understanding of the Salvation Army that salvation is wholistic and involves every part of ourselves.
“There is no gospel, but the social gospel – salvation is wholistic – the total redemption of mind, body and spirit. People can’t hear about the gospel while their tummies are rumbling.”
- A little of William Booth’s story and how he received pushback from the established church because the people he was ministering to didn’t fit in and weren’t welcomed. Booth realised he would have to create a safe place for them to flourish and hence, new churches were founded.
- The role of the Holy Spirit in establishing new movements. Often we begin in the fire of the Holy Spirit, but then we get comfortable and shift into maintenance mode. Hence the need to constantly stir up the Spirit in our hearts, listen to what God is saying and bravely re-pioneer…
“We see God move most in our lives when we’re out of our depth.”
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About Kim Haworth
Major Kim Haworth is the Divisional Commander of the NSW and ACT Division of The Salvation Army. She has served in pastoral ministry for 10 years with her husband, Steve as Corps Officers (lead pastors) in country Victoria and Melbourne, as well as four years as the Divisional Commander for Tasmania. Kim has completed undergraduate and post graduate studies in Ministry and Theology and holds a Vice Chancellor’s Scholar award from the University of Divinity. She have three great adult kids – Jayden, Stacey and Bryce. Kim is passionate about living in the presence of God every day, and sharing the life of freedom and joy, that Jesus died to give all people who call on His name.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
I think it was Mother Teresa andsomeone asked her.
When does God speak to you? And she said, whenever he wants.
How could I know if God was speaking to me?
And how could I know that that was actually just me thinking
about I just had some bad pizza?I just thought it was normal to
dream and have experiences. And she said to me, I actually
(00:21):
have a relationship with Jesus and he talks to me and it just
blew my mind. And then hearing.
The Lord speak again very clearly and just say this.
This is where I've called you tolove and serve.
Jesus said we'd recognise his voice.
It was never meant to be a one way conversation.
Many of you have heard of the Salvation Army working in 136
(00:44):
countries around the world. This incredible movement began
in the streets of 19th century London.
Founded by William and CatherineBooth, The Salvation Army is
both a church and a charity known for its focus on justice,
compassion, and supporting the welfare of others.
But did you know that the salvosbegan in the power and
(01:06):
revelation of the Holy Spirit? Hi and welcome to the God
Conversations podcast. My name is Tanya Harris and I'm
a pastor, practical theologian, author, and the founding
director of God Conversations, aministry that equips you to
recognise and respond to God's voice.
We are talking today about the God Conversations that shaped
(01:29):
the Salvation Army, also affectionately known as The
Salvos. You know, wherever there's a new
movement in and through the church, we know that the Holy
Spirit will be at work. And our guest on the show today
explains how the Holy Spirit wasat the centre of the Salvation
Army movement from the very beginning.
(01:52):
She is a major in The Salvos. She leads the State of NSW and
the ACT in Australia as Divisional Commander and has
served in pastoral ministry for 10 years with her husband in
country, Victoria and Melbourne,as well as leading the State of
Tasmania. She is passionate about living
in the presence of God every dayand sharing in the freedom and
(02:14):
joy that Jesus came to give. I know you are going to love
her. Welcome to the show Major Kim
Howarth. Now we should tell everyone that
we have been getting to know each other a little over the
last six months, haven't we, Kim?
We certainly have Tanya. We've been on a great road trip
haven't we, around NSW ACT? It's been such a wonderful
(02:36):
privilege to meet many of the hard workers at the core of the
Salvation Army movement in the state.
And Kim, you're doing an incredible job heading it up,
and we feel so privileged to have you on the show.
But for those who don't know you, perhaps you can tell us a
little of the Kim Howarth story.Yeah, thanks Tanya.
(02:56):
I'd love to. So my name is Kim Howarth.
I am a Salvation Army officer. I do have the beautiful
privilege of being currently thestate leader for NSW and ACT,
but my story is that God didn't really become real to me in a
way that transformed my life until I was 31.
(03:19):
And so prior to that, if you hadhave said to me, are you a
Christian, I would have said yes, because I did believe that
God existed, but I had no concept of relationship.
My experience of God had been going to an Anglican girls
school, so we had to go to Chapel as part of that.
(03:39):
So I did grow up with an understanding of Bible stories
and of singing hymns and what church was all about.
And, and I also, of course, wentthrough what was christened as
a, as a little person. And so that was my understanding
of, of God and of church. And, and it was important for me
(04:00):
that I would be married in a church.
And it was important for me thatmy children would be christened
because, because I believe that I was a Christian.
But it wasn't until I was 31 when we befriended some
Salvation Army officers. They were part of the
kindergarten that our children or our eldest child was going
(04:21):
to, and we just got friendly. I was on the kindergarten
committee as the assistant treasurer.
The treasurer was a Salvation Army officer who had
purposefully joined that group in order to get outside the
walls of the church, in order tomeet people in the community.
And I didn't know, but the Holy Spirit was working.
(04:43):
They started to pray for us. We didn't know that, but we were
on their, their hit list, if youlike.
And they started to pray for us regularly and just gently invite
us to the Salvation Army. And, and it was after saying yes
to one of those invitations thatI went along thinking that I
would tick it off my list of things to do.
(05:06):
Because while I was open to the idea of God, church had never
really been the place that I sawmyself in.
But I didn't anticipate that during the worship time that I
would have an encounter with theHoly Spirit that would make me
feel like I'd come home, and it changed everything for me.
(05:28):
Beautiful, amazing. We we're talking about the God
conversations that shaped the salvos, But what God
conversation shaped you? Then perhaps this encounter
moment. Yeah, that was certainly the
first one. And my husband, Steven, he said
the woman that came home was different to the woman who went
(05:48):
to church. And I was so hungry for the
Lord. You know, within six months I'd
enrolled in Bible college 'causeI felt like I needed to catch
up. And it was never my intention to
be a Salvation Army officer, butI loved the local church, the
Salvation Army Corps, that we became a part of the community
there. I got involved in leadership.
(06:08):
I started leading Alpha. So I had leaders who were
willing to actually give me an opportunity to grow and to lead
and to be discipled, which was amazing.
And and I thought that's what I do, Tanya, that I would be in
that place for the for the wholeof my life and that I would
contribute to the Kingdom of Godthrough ministry there until one
(06:31):
day sitting in a meeting, a Sunday worship service.
It was now about four years later after that conversion
story and I felt just in an instant, the Holy Spirit speak
really clear clearly to me. And I heard him say, Oh, we just
sung actually a worship song. And and I was saying to the
(06:54):
Lord, I know that I will serve you, Lord, I know that I will.
But of course I thought that wasin the local context and and
then I heard very clearly in, inmy, in my mind, you know, you're
going to be an officer, don't you?
To which I replied yes and I hadthis just crazy amount of peace
(07:15):
that I just felt from the top ofmy head to the tips of my toes.
It lasted for about 5 seconds until I realised what I'd said.
And. Then I started a dialogue with
God that was like, no Lord, no Lord, you don't understand.
I can't do that. And how can we move our three
children and our whole life? You know, I mean, we'd even
(07:36):
looked at living in the next suburb and we hadn't even
managed to move house to do that, so moving wasn't really a
thing. But obviously becoming part of
the Salvation Army would mean moving around to different
appointments. And so that was quite a journey,
you know. Now for those those who just to
translate a little bit because those outside of the Salvation
(07:58):
Army may not even know what an officer is.
Ah, OK, yes, sure. So it's a minister.
Yeah, an ordained minister, right.
It makes me. Smile because when I first, so I
met Kim maybe a year and a half ago at a conference and we just
have had such a synergy about what the Holy Spirit was wanting
to do in the church. And I've been working with Kim
(08:19):
in NSW for the past six months. But when I first started, I
became very aware that there wasa whole different vocab in the
Salvation Army that I didn't know about.
And and I thought, oh, what I need to do is learn some new
words. So I asked him ZA to send me,
you know, some of the vocab and in comes a four page document,
but all the different. But, but perhaps I digress here,
(08:43):
but maybe it's super helpful because we want to talk a little
bit about the role of the Holy Spirit in the Salvation Army.
But I think that some of our listeners may not even realise
that the Salvation Army is a church, right?
It's not that way. But we, we were familiar.
I know that I was, I, you know, seen the Red shield appeal and I
(09:03):
knew that the Salvation Army wasknown for its incredible works
of, you know, social justice. And yeah, everyone thanks God
for the salvos. But I think it was quite a
revelation a few years ago to realise.
Oh, hang on a minute. This.
Yeah. So.
So perhaps you can fill in the blanks a little bit for us, Kim,
before we look at the Holy Spirit and the Salvation Army,
(09:25):
perhaps tell us what the Salvation Army is.
Yeah, sure, I'd love to. Well, we are definitely,
absolutely a part of the Universal Christian Church.
Our, you know, our doctrine is based on the Bible.
We believe that we are called topreach the gospel of good news
of Jesus and, and, and provide assistance to those in need
(09:45):
without discrimination. So we have a very particular
place, I think, in the body of Christ.
Why were you called an army and why the Salvation Army?
Yeah, that's a, that's a good, agood question, Tanya.
Well, it kind of came about a little bit by chance or not.
Not by chance. That's a crazy thing to say,
(10:05):
isn't it? Obviously ordained by the Holy
Spirit. But I think from William Booth,
our founder, William and Catherine Booth, from their
perspective, he was writing somepropaganda to the these people
that he'd raised up as part of the Christian mission.
So that was what the Salvation Army was formally called before
it became the Salvation Army in 1865.
(10:27):
And he was in the East End of London and he was raising up
this team of of people who had been redeemed, who were reaching
out to the lost. The last and the least, you
know, what they actually termed as the submerged 10th in the
East End of London, Those who the other churches were not
reaching, who weren't really interested in because they were
(10:47):
the tough ones, right? They were the poor of the poor.
They were often had lots of addictions and other issues.
And so they were the people thatWilliam Booth felt the Holy
Spirit lead him to. And and he was so after they'd
been going for a little while, he was writing a, an ad really,
if you like, to them. And, and he was talking about
(11:08):
wanting to raise up an army, youknow, and he wanted to call it
the volunteer army. And the story goes that at one
point he just put a line throughthe word volunteer and wrote
salvation, realising that that was his heart was to see people
come to salvation and wholeness in Jesus and to have their lives
(11:29):
transformed. And so, you know, obviously back
in the day, having a military structure that was kind of an
easy structure that he could adopt for the movement that was
being birthed through him and his wife Catherine.
And, and obviously, you know, back then military, it was, it
was kind of a respected thing. And, and it was easier to or
(11:52):
easy to be able to, to, to invite people into what he knew
was this spiritual war that thatall believers in Jesus are
called to be part of. Yeah, it certainly works,
doesn't it? It's certainly a metaphor we see
in Scripture and I think about the Book of Revelation
recruiting everyone to be involved and, and the whole
(12:13):
messaging around that is you arepart of an army that are working
to bring the Kingdom of God fromheaven to earth.
Of course, it's a very differenttype of army, isn't it?
It's a salvation. Yeah, that's wrong.
And one of the things you know, I've observed working with the
salvos is how much, how well youunderstand salvation, because
(12:34):
sometimes in the church we've reduced that to a type of
spiritual salvation, which it is.
But the salvos seem to have a much bigger picture of
salvation. Yeah, it's a thank you for
picking that up too. It's absolutely true.
You know, we would say that there is no gospel but the
social gospel. And that is the total redemption
(12:56):
of body, mind, soul and spirit. And William Booth was always,
you know, known to, to be saying, well, how can I talk to
people about a God who loves them and about a Saviour who
died for them when their, their tummies are rumbling, when
they've got no food, when they're freezing and they've got
nowhere to live, or when they'resuffering because they're part
(13:17):
of a domestic violence relationship or, or something
else. So he realised that in order to
be able to see people fully redeemed and and to be able to
hear the message of salvation, that he had to show them the
love of God as well by making sure that they were fed, they
were clothed, they had somewhereto live and they were.
Cared for. I was just reflecting in
(13:41):
preparation, working with you. I read the the biography of
William Booth, starting of the salvo, who said, as I said at
your conference, Oh my gosh, by the end of it, I was exhausted
because I don't think I ever have seen salvation being
understood at its breadth. I mean, he was sheltering the
(14:02):
homeless, he was getting jobs for the unemployed.
He he was starting off rescue services in natural disasters,
finding lost people, helping people in retirement who had no
money like it. It just the the age of consent
right for for young girls. He just advocating for every
(14:24):
type of attribute of humanity and wholeness and salvation.
It was quite profound and beautiful.
I don't know how he did it all, but I think that the salvos have
something to show the church globally.
What about what salvation means?And I love that about what you
(14:44):
do. But let's think about this is
we're talking about God conversations.
We're thinking we're talking about the voice of the Spirit.
So can you tell us then, what role did the Holy Spirit play,
particularly at the beginning ofthe Salvation Army?
Yeah, well, you know, we say that the The Salvation Army was
born in the fire of Pentecostal force, and that's the truth.
(15:07):
William Booth, you know, as a 13year old apparently knelt and
actually said, God, you can haveall there is of me.
And that was his, him consecrating himself to the work
of God for all of his life. And then as he went through his
life, you know, he found his destiny with those who are
outcast, with those who are marginalised, with those who are
(15:27):
lost. And I believe that the Holy
Spirit absolutely was speaking to him and guiding him and
leading him to his people. And, and once he found that once
he knew what his life was about and his destiny, as he called
it, then he just said about creating this army to to
actually address injustice and hardship.
(15:49):
You know, as he read the Gospel,read Matthew 25, you know, which
says whatever you've done to theleast of these, you've done for
me. And he took that seriously.
And he also believed that, you know, if we did rise up as his
people and make him real, make him known and, and know him
ourselves and, you know, work together to make this world a
(16:12):
better place that that then we would create heaven on earth.
Sadly, he received some pushbackfrom the established church,
didn't he? Because of that, he.
Yeah, he did. He received a lot of pushback,
in fact, that the truth is he never set out to create a
church. You know, he just was saw these
people and wanted to rescue themfrom misery and, and said about
(16:34):
that. And, and of course, once he,
once he saw them reach a place of salvation and want to change
their circumstances, he would try and introduce them to other
churches, but but they weren't welcome and they didn't fit.
And he very quickly recognised that if he was going to not see
these people slip back into the lives of which they've been
(16:57):
pulled from, that he would have to create a place for them.
And that's how come really, the The Salvation Army as we know it
today was born. It's a classic case of the move
of the Spirit re establishing the true foundations of the
gospel, isn't it? Because reading the scriptures,
God has always showed God self to be for the marginalised and
(17:19):
the oppressed and the least goodnews to the poor.
It's classic Jesus stuff, isn't it?
So wherever and I think sometimes the church just gets
comfortable in its, you know, inits prosperity sometimes and
seems to forget that I I think about then what is the link then
between the spirit and social justice?
(17:42):
What can? What connection is there?
Perhaps I've already answered that question.
Yeah. Well, I think this, it's the
Spirit that brings conviction, right?
And it's the Holy Spirit that gives us a hunger.
And I think the more that we hunger after God, the more that
we seek him, the more we see there's his love, his heart for
all people. And we do see then we look at
(18:03):
people differently. We understand that people land
in certain, certain circumstances in their life, not
always of their own doing. Some, you know, I, I, they
choose to believe that people, they make the best decisions
they can at certain times in their life and it leads them
down an interesting path. And all they themselves have
actually been victim to injustice and to hardship.
(18:27):
And so we believe, we want to see everybody made in the image
of God, right? And, and we know that the Lord
is drawing all people unto himself.
And so we by extension, become those feet, those hands of
Jesus. And yeah, I think that's the
heart. And and the Holy Spirit
absolutely directs our path. Yeah, I think whenever Holy
(18:48):
Spirit speaks, that's where we're going to find ourselves.
Because on the margins in the tough.
Places God's heart and it it means that God's heart's for
everyone. But because I think humanity
naturally is drawn towards the privileged and the prosperous
and we naturally forget. It's almost like Holy Spirit
(19:09):
intentionally works in the opposite spirit to redirect and
say, hang on, this person is just as valuable as this person.
Even though the world says the the wealthy or the the beautiful
or the high status person is of greater importance.
Actually, God is constantly saying no everyone, and
(19:32):
especially these, because we keep overlooking them, we keep
forgetting them. We are talking to the wonderful
Kim Howarth, the district commander of NSW and ACT of the
Salvation Army in Australia. We'll be back to talk more in
just a moment. What does God sound like?
(19:53):
How do I know it's him? They're the questions I asked
myself at 21. I'd read stories of God speaking
throughout the Bible, but I'd never heard His voice for
myself, so I decided to try it out.
Lord, and if you make it really clear, I'll do whatever you say.
My new book, God Conversations, is all about what happened when
(20:14):
I heard God's voice. It won't tell you how to hear it
as much as it will show you, as Jesus promised.
We can all recognise his voice and know it enough to follow.
Buy it now at godconversations.com.
We're back talking with now. I missed up the title.
The Major Howarth, the divisional commander.
(20:37):
See. It's the vocab again.
Lieutenant Major, soldier, Officer.
There's even a, there's even a general, isn't there?
There is the general is the worldwide leader of the
Salvation Army. And and and ATC a territorial
commander because I almost introduced you as ATC instead of
ADC. Yeah, Well, that's yeah.
(20:59):
And and you know, we're in 136 countries around the world, the
Salvation Army. So yes.
But we do have that quasi military terminology.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't You love titles. We've been having a lot of fun
with my Reverend Dr titles of lately because everyone drops
the Reverend and and says doctor, I said, but I'm I'm I'm
more holy than I am smart. But yeah, don't you love it?
(21:25):
Us humans, we love our titles. Back to our conversation.
I would like to know. So you and I met because we have
a shared passion over seeing more of the Holy Spirit move.
And I think just observing the nature of humanity, we tend to
default to safety, passivity, routine, comfort.
(21:51):
So let's talk about the Holy Spirit working in the movement
of the Salvation Army. What's your heart for the salvos
at the moment? Look, I think, I think my heart
for this elbows is that as we continue to journey, because
we've been through a lot of transformation in the last few
years in Australia especially. And I think that we are
(22:12):
rediscovering in a beautiful wayour identity and who we are in
Christ and who the Holy Spirit has raised us up to be.
You know, the part that we play in the body and, and I love
that, right, because there's such a, a sense of the Lord
moving on unity at the moment across the, the body of Christ,
But we do all play some different parts of that body.
(22:35):
And I love that. And so I think that for us in
the Salvation Army, you know, that Holy Spirit power was what
brought us into being. You know, the early army didn't
have all the bells and whistles that it does now.
It didn't have the resources it does now.
But, but we, we always had Jesus.
We always had the Holy Spirit And I love the boldness and the,
(22:58):
you know, the, the, the bravery and the, and just the pioneering
of the early army. And, and if there's a time for
pioneering, it's certainly now within the body of Christ
because we're in a place, aren'twe, where, and I say this more
broadly, that, you know, the church, Christendom is gone.
We're not what we were, but I dobelieve that we're not yet what
(23:19):
we're becoming. And in this time of going
through, I think it's now that we need to rediscover the Spirit
and, and being, you know, being people who listen, listen to the
Spirit, who discern what the Spirit says and, and who act on
that. And so, yeah, that's certainly
where we are in full agreement, Tanya, aren't we, about the way
(23:40):
God's moving in these days? I remember studying a piece of
research that was done that looked at what happens to
movements over time and it applies to every type of
movement. And each movement often starts
in the power of the Spirit, lotsof miracles and revelation and
spirit guidance and stepping outin faith and doing crazy radical
(24:04):
things, which is so true of William Boo's ministry.
I mean, he constantly did thingswithout money.
He just started a ministry. He just felt LED of the Spirit,
believed to God and saw the miracle work of God.
But what happens over time, again in every movement, is that
as we start to organise and we start to build the institutional
(24:26):
part of what we do, the the structures and formalise things
and get more resources, we get comfortable and we start
shifting into maintenance mode. And it's almost like we revert
back to reliance on our humanityand our human ability to get
things done, and we lose that sense of the power and the
(24:49):
leading of the spirit. And sociologists call this the
institutionalisation of the charismata.
Charismata mean meaning, moves of the spirit, graces of the
spirit. And it's almost like humanity is
destined to it. And that's what we have to to
keep doing, is recognise that that's our human default and
(25:12):
then intentionally work against it to come back to hang on.
We can't do this without God. Jesus said that you can't do
this without me. We can't save anyone.
We can't convict anyone. We can't heal anyone.
We, we play our part humanly. So how do we do that?
How do we focus back on the Spirit again?
(25:35):
Yeah, that's a, that's a great question.
I think you're absolutely right.You know, when, when movements
start, they have, they have basically have nothing to lose,
right? So they pioneer, they're bold,
they go for it because they knowwhat they're going after.
They're absolutely empowered by the Spirit.
And then you're right, over time, I think as it grows, as it
(25:55):
becomes successful and you know,in whatever success looks like
achieving its mission would be success for the Salvation Army,
then then all of a sudden you dohave something to lose.
You do have something that that create that needs to be
organised. It needs to be done well and it
needs to be done professionally and good.
And certainly that's the the place of the Salvation Army.
(26:18):
You know, professional social work now is it's huge, right?
And there's so much regulation and legislation and around what
we do in caring for people. And, and so it's really
important that we do that reallywell and we need to honour that.
That's part of being who we are as a Salvation Army.
But you're right, how do we, howdo we keep that pioneering
(26:39):
spirit? How do we make sure that even
though we're a big movement, youknow, we have lots of employees,
lots of volunteers and, and we're charged with doing this
incredible work. You know, we partner with
government and with others to dothis great work, but we do have
to try and keep our edge. And, and that is about going
(27:02):
back to the Lord, isn't it? It's about being surrendered
enough to be able and yielded enough to be able to hear what
Holy Spirit is saying, to be able to hear what God's telling
us in these days. And and then I think to have the
the steadfast faith to be obedient to that, even
(27:23):
potentially if it doesn't look like what the world thinks it
should look like. Yeah.
It's, it's a reminder to understand that the core of
salvation is the Spirit too, isn't it?
That we could do all these otherworks that are producing good
things, but actually the Kingdomof God is invisible.
(27:43):
It's spiritual and spiritual fruit is not quite the same as
what humans can do in their own strength.
So spirit leading leads to transformation at the very heart
level, isn't it so? That's right, I always.
Say focus on that. Yeah, that's right.
Like I always say, you know, we can do good things for God and
(28:04):
that's good. Like they are good things, you
know, but how much better is it to do God things for good
because they're the eternal things.
And and the Lord's just been reminding me of that in these
days that we're called to do thegreater things.
You know Jesus said you'll do what I've done and more in my
name, and so let's do God thingsfor good.
(28:27):
I love that. I often think too as being like
a partnership. So we start off with all of, you
know, relying on God, this this great interdependency in terms
of what God does and what I do. So this integral two way
partnership, God does God's bit and I do mine.
But then as we go along, God's part tends to diminish
(28:47):
sometimes, and it's all about what we do.
Right. I think we get really
proficient, you know what I mean?
Like proficient at things and I think then it's easy for us to.
Right to. Settle in that and and we're
good at it and we're and it's going well.
But I mean for just using my ownpersonal experience, Tanya, I
know that for me, when I've seenGod move the most in my life is
(29:12):
when I'm absolutely out of my depth.
Yes, yeah. And Adam, because the danger is
we, we do the stuff so well and then well, God's left the
building. We go, oops.
I've, I personally, Kim, I confess, I, I been working hard
at what I have done, been doing God conversations for 15 years.
(29:34):
And I know my stuff and I deliver it the best way I can.
But I'm just so aware that my words fall to the dust, whereas
God's words are the words that linger and that stay in that
produce power and life and miracles.
So that dependency on him. And, and perhaps we've been
talking about the Salvation Armymovement broadly, but perhaps
(29:59):
one way to to bring correctives to movements that need to keep
being in reinvigorated is that my spiritual life needs to keep
being reinvigorated, keep stirring it up, and never use
that cutting edge myself. Does that make sense?
That makes absolute sense. I think you're absolutely right.
(30:20):
It, it always starts with the one and you know, and then and
then the many together who are on a similar journey.
So I think it's vital that we that we continue to have our own
hearts stirred. Tanya, I think you're right.
I think we have to keep pushing ourselves out into the places
where maybe we don't have enoughresources.
Maybe we don't have what it takes, but that's where we find
(30:42):
the Lord and that's where the Spirit beckons us, I think.
And and then, and then we see him, we see him move.
And I love that, you know, that's, that's what we're all
about. So I'm thinking about our
listeners and I'm thinking aboutthe challenge of this
conversation. I wonder if you could give us
some wisdom on how an individualmight continue to reinvigorate
(31:07):
and keep refocusing on the work of the Spirit.
Because I think the older that we get, and you and I, we're not
that old, but we kind of are older than what we were in our
20s, but we knew nothing. We still don't know much.
Some wisdom on, on anyone who's listening to this, whoever you
(31:28):
are and wherever you're at, whatever age you're at, some
wisdom on how do we keep stirring up the work of the
Spirit in our lives? What does that?
Look like, yeah, look, I, I think probably one of the most
full, risky, but amazing ways todo that is to ask what's next
(31:50):
for me and what do you want me to do?
Because if you ask the Lord, that Holy Spirit will speak to
you, I have no doubt. And, you know, if you put your
plate yourself in a place of consecration and a place of
yielding, a place of surrender, then the Lord will absolutely
speak to you. And and then, but then there's
(32:12):
that, that piece of obedience, right?
That's the tough part. It's the, it's the part of
actually saying, all right, thenor OK, or, you know, I'm with
you and let's do this. And I think there's nothing
quite like stepping out into that place of unknown, which can
feel quite, you know, quite scary and quite overwhelming.
(32:34):
But if you know that law, the Lord has called you to that, if
you know that Holy Spirit is leading you to that, then then
being faithful in that, then youjust, you just, you see him move
and then you hunger for more of that.
And it becomes a, you know, a pattern.
But also what you see is this beautiful relationship of
(32:54):
partnering, of commissioning with the Lord in what we're
called to do. And there's nothing, there's no,
what better life could there be really then a life lived that
way? You know, it's, it's so much
richer, so much deeper, so much more beautiful than than all the
things this world can offer, really.
(33:16):
I love that there's always more,isn't there?
There's always more. If we're brave enough to keep
asking, keep expecting, keep having that faith to and and
perhaps understanding that we'reprone to becoming a bit lazy.
So let's keep. Right.
I think we naturally seek comfort, don't we?
(33:37):
It's a natural thing, right? I've been praying of like Kim.
God give me something that scares me.
Oh wow, time. Now that's a break.
Where do I get that prayer from?It's nuts.
Oh, it's good. You know, I have such a heart to
see renewal of the Spirit amongst the global church and
(33:57):
and to see the works of God be greater than what they were even
in the early church. So we're continuing to pray for
that. But Kim, thank you so much for
your precious time. Thank you for all the work you
do in leading the salvos in NSW and ACT.
May God expand your territory and may we see a real move of
God. Thanks again for joining us on
the podcast. Tanya, thank you and thank you
(34:20):
for your faithfulness in actually stepping out and for
you and doing what you believe the Lord has called you to.
And I believe that it is a now word that you have for the
church and God bless you and thank you that you so faithfully
share it. Well, thank you Kim, Love
chatting with you. Thanks for listening to God
(34:42):
Conversations with Tanya Harris.Don't miss the next episode by
subscribing to the show and yourfavourite podcast app.
And remember, the Holy Spirit was given so we could all hear
God's voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation.
God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
I think it was Mother Teresa andsomeone asked her.
When does God speak to you? And she said, whenever he wants.
How could I know if God was speaking to me?
And how could I know that that was actually just me thinking
about I just had some bad pizza?I just thought it was normal to
dream and have experiences. And she said to me, I actually
(00:21):
have a relationship with Jesus and he talks to me and it just
blew my mind. And then hearing.
The Lord speak again very clearly and just say this.
This is where I've called you tolove and serve.
Jesus said we'd recognise his voice.
It was never meant to be a one way conversation.
Many of you have heard of the Salvation Army working in 136
(00:44):
countries around the world. This incredible movement began
in the streets of 19th century London.
Founded by William and CatherineBooth, The Salvation Army is
both a church and a charity known for its focus on justice,
compassion, and supporting the welfare of others.
But did you know that the salvosbegan in the power and
(01:06):
revelation of the Holy Spirit? Hi and welcome to the God
Conversations podcast. My name is Tanya Harris and I'm
a pastor, practical theologian, author, and the founding
director of God Conversations, aministry that equips you to
recognise and respond to God's voice.
We are talking today about the God Conversations that shaped
(01:29):
the Salvation Army, also affectionately known as The
Salvos. You know, wherever there's a new
movement in and through the church, we know that the Holy
Spirit will be at work. And our guest on the show today
explains how the Holy Spirit wasat the centre of the Salvation
Army movement from the very beginning.
(01:52):
She is a major in The Salvos. She leads the State of NSW and
the ACT in Australia as Divisional Commander and has
served in pastoral ministry for 10 years with her husband in
country, Victoria and Melbourne,as well as leading the State of
Tasmania. She is passionate about living
in the presence of God every dayand sharing in the freedom and
(02:14):
joy that Jesus came to give. I know you are going to love
her. Welcome to the show Major Kim
Howarth. Now we should tell everyone that
we have been getting to know each other a little over the
last six months, haven't we, Kim?
We certainly have Tanya. We've been on a great road trip
haven't we, around NSW ACT? It's been such a wonderful
(02:36):
privilege to meet many of the hard workers at the core of the
Salvation Army movement in the state.
And Kim, you're doing an incredible job heading it up,
and we feel so privileged to have you on the show.
But for those who don't know you, perhaps you can tell us a
little of the Kim Howarth story.Yeah, thanks Tanya.
(02:56):
I'd love to. So my name is Kim Howarth.
I am a Salvation Army officer. I do have the beautiful
privilege of being currently thestate leader for NSW and ACT,
but my story is that God didn't really become real to me in a
way that transformed my life until I was 31.
(03:19):
And so prior to that, if you hadhave said to me, are you a
Christian, I would have said yes, because I did believe that
God existed, but I had no concept of relationship.
My experience of God had been going to an Anglican girls
school, so we had to go to Chapel as part of that.
(03:39):
So I did grow up with an understanding of Bible stories
and of singing hymns and what church was all about.
And, and I also, of course, wentthrough what was christened as
a, as a little person. And so that was my understanding
of, of God and of church. And, and it was important for me
(04:00):
that I would be married in a church.
And it was important for me thatmy children would be christened
because, because I believe that I was a Christian.
But it wasn't until I was 31 when we befriended some
Salvation Army officers. They were part of the
kindergarten that our children or our eldest child was going
(04:21):
to, and we just got friendly. I was on the kindergarten
committee as the assistant treasurer.
The treasurer was a Salvation Army officer who had
purposefully joined that group in order to get outside the
walls of the church, in order tomeet people in the community.
And I didn't know, but the Holy Spirit was working.
(04:43):
They started to pray for us. We didn't know that, but we were
on their, their hit list, if youlike.
And they started to pray for us regularly and just gently invite
us to the Salvation Army. And, and it was after saying yes
to one of those invitations thatI went along thinking that I
would tick it off my list of things to do.
(05:06):
Because while I was open to the idea of God, church had never
really been the place that I sawmyself in.
But I didn't anticipate that during the worship time that I
would have an encounter with theHoly Spirit that would make me
feel like I'd come home, and it changed everything for me.
(05:28):
Beautiful, amazing. We we're talking about the God
conversations that shaped the salvos, But what God
conversation shaped you? Then perhaps this encounter
moment. Yeah, that was certainly the
first one. And my husband, Steven, he said
the woman that came home was different to the woman who went
(05:48):
to church. And I was so hungry for the
Lord. You know, within six months I'd
enrolled in Bible college 'causeI felt like I needed to catch
up. And it was never my intention to
be a Salvation Army officer, butI loved the local church, the
Salvation Army Corps, that we became a part of the community
there. I got involved in leadership.
(06:08):
I started leading Alpha. So I had leaders who were
willing to actually give me an opportunity to grow and to lead
and to be discipled, which was amazing.
And and I thought that's what I do, Tanya, that I would be in
that place for the for the wholeof my life and that I would
contribute to the Kingdom of Godthrough ministry there until one
(06:31):
day sitting in a meeting, a Sunday worship service.
It was now about four years later after that conversion
story and I felt just in an instant, the Holy Spirit speak
really clear clearly to me. And I heard him say, Oh, we just
sung actually a worship song. And and I was saying to the
(06:54):
Lord, I know that I will serve you, Lord, I know that I will.
But of course I thought that wasin the local context and and
then I heard very clearly in, inmy, in my mind, you know, you're
going to be an officer, don't you?
To which I replied yes and I hadthis just crazy amount of peace
(07:15):
that I just felt from the top ofmy head to the tips of my toes.
It lasted for about 5 seconds until I realised what I'd said.
And. Then I started a dialogue with
God that was like, no Lord, no Lord, you don't understand.
I can't do that. And how can we move our three
children and our whole life? You know, I mean, we'd even
(07:36):
looked at living in the next suburb and we hadn't even
managed to move house to do that, so moving wasn't really a
thing. But obviously becoming part of
the Salvation Army would mean moving around to different
appointments. And so that was quite a journey,
you know. Now for those those who just to
translate a little bit because those outside of the Salvation
(07:58):
Army may not even know what an officer is.
Ah, OK, yes, sure. So it's a minister.
Yeah, an ordained minister, right.
It makes me. Smile because when I first, so I
met Kim maybe a year and a half ago at a conference and we just
have had such a synergy about what the Holy Spirit was wanting
to do in the church. And I've been working with Kim
(08:19):
in NSW for the past six months. But when I first started, I
became very aware that there wasa whole different vocab in the
Salvation Army that I didn't know about.
And and I thought, oh, what I need to do is learn some new
words. So I asked him ZA to send me,
you know, some of the vocab and in comes a four page document,
but all the different. But, but perhaps I digress here,
(08:43):
but maybe it's super helpful because we want to talk a little
bit about the role of the Holy Spirit in the Salvation Army.
But I think that some of our listeners may not even realise
that the Salvation Army is a church, right?
It's not that way. But we, we were familiar.
I know that I was, I, you know, seen the Red shield appeal and I
(09:03):
knew that the Salvation Army wasknown for its incredible works
of, you know, social justice. And yeah, everyone thanks God
for the salvos. But I think it was quite a
revelation a few years ago to realise.
Oh, hang on a minute. This.
Yeah. So.
So perhaps you can fill in the blanks a little bit for us, Kim,
before we look at the Holy Spirit and the Salvation Army,
(09:25):
perhaps tell us what the Salvation Army is.
Yeah, sure, I'd love to. Well, we are definitely,
absolutely a part of the Universal Christian Church.
Our, you know, our doctrine is based on the Bible.
We believe that we are called topreach the gospel of good news
of Jesus and, and, and provide assistance to those in need
(09:45):
without discrimination. So we have a very particular
place, I think, in the body of Christ.
Why were you called an army and why the Salvation Army?
Yeah, that's a, that's a good, agood question, Tanya.
Well, it kind of came about a little bit by chance or not.
Not by chance. That's a crazy thing to say,
(10:05):
isn't it? Obviously ordained by the Holy
Spirit. But I think from William Booth,
our founder, William and Catherine Booth, from their
perspective, he was writing somepropaganda to the these people
that he'd raised up as part of the Christian mission.
So that was what the Salvation Army was formally called before
it became the Salvation Army in 1865.
(10:27):
And he was in the East End of London and he was raising up
this team of of people who had been redeemed, who were reaching
out to the lost. The last and the least, you
know, what they actually termed as the submerged 10th in the
East End of London, Those who the other churches were not
reaching, who weren't really interested in because they were
(10:47):
the tough ones, right? They were the poor of the poor.
They were often had lots of addictions and other issues.
And so they were the people thatWilliam Booth felt the Holy
Spirit lead him to. And and he was so after they'd
been going for a little while, he was writing a, an ad really,
if you like, to them. And, and he was talking about
(11:08):
wanting to raise up an army, youknow, and he wanted to call it
the volunteer army. And the story goes that at one
point he just put a line throughthe word volunteer and wrote
salvation, realising that that was his heart was to see people
come to salvation and wholeness in Jesus and to have their lives
(11:29):
transformed. And so, you know, obviously back
in the day, having a military structure that was kind of an
easy structure that he could adopt for the movement that was
being birthed through him and his wife Catherine.
And, and obviously, you know, back then military, it was, it
was kind of a respected thing. And, and it was easier to or
(11:52):
easy to be able to, to, to invite people into what he knew
was this spiritual war that thatall believers in Jesus are
called to be part of. Yeah, it certainly works,
doesn't it? It's certainly a metaphor we see
in Scripture and I think about the Book of Revelation
recruiting everyone to be involved and, and the whole
(12:13):
messaging around that is you arepart of an army that are working
to bring the Kingdom of God fromheaven to earth.
Of course, it's a very differenttype of army, isn't it?
It's a salvation. Yeah, that's wrong.
And one of the things you know, I've observed working with the
salvos is how much, how well youunderstand salvation, because
(12:34):
sometimes in the church we've reduced that to a type of
spiritual salvation, which it is.
But the salvos seem to have a much bigger picture of
salvation. Yeah, it's a thank you for
picking that up too. It's absolutely true.
You know, we would say that there is no gospel but the
social gospel. And that is the total redemption
(12:56):
of body, mind, soul and spirit. And William Booth was always,
you know, known to, to be saying, well, how can I talk to
people about a God who loves them and about a Saviour who
died for them when their, their tummies are rumbling, when
they've got no food, when they're freezing and they've got
nowhere to live, or when they'resuffering because they're part
(13:17):
of a domestic violence relationship or, or something
else. So he realised that in order to
be able to see people fully redeemed and and to be able to
hear the message of salvation, that he had to show them the
love of God as well by making sure that they were fed, they
were clothed, they had somewhereto live and they were.
Cared for. I was just reflecting in
(13:41):
preparation, working with you. I read the the biography of
William Booth, starting of the salvo, who said, as I said at
your conference, Oh my gosh, by the end of it, I was exhausted
because I don't think I ever have seen salvation being
understood at its breadth. I mean, he was sheltering the
(14:02):
homeless, he was getting jobs for the unemployed.
He he was starting off rescue services in natural disasters,
finding lost people, helping people in retirement who had no
money like it. It just the the age of consent
right for for young girls. He just advocating for every
(14:24):
type of attribute of humanity and wholeness and salvation.
It was quite profound and beautiful.
I don't know how he did it all, but I think that the salvos have
something to show the church globally.
What about what salvation means?And I love that about what you
(14:44):
do. But let's think about this is
we're talking about God conversations.
We're thinking we're talking about the voice of the Spirit.
So can you tell us then, what role did the Holy Spirit play,
particularly at the beginning ofthe Salvation Army?
Yeah, well, you know, we say that the The Salvation Army was
born in the fire of Pentecostal force, and that's the truth.
(15:07):
William Booth, you know, as a 13year old apparently knelt and
actually said, God, you can haveall there is of me.
And that was his, him consecrating himself to the work
of God for all of his life. And then as he went through his
life, you know, he found his destiny with those who are
outcast, with those who are marginalised, with those who are
(15:27):
lost. And I believe that the Holy
Spirit absolutely was speaking to him and guiding him and
leading him to his people. And, and once he found that once
he knew what his life was about and his destiny, as he called
it, then he just said about creating this army to to
actually address injustice and hardship.
(15:49):
You know, as he read the Gospel,read Matthew 25, you know, which
says whatever you've done to theleast of these, you've done for
me. And he took that seriously.
And he also believed that, you know, if we did rise up as his
people and make him real, make him known and, and know him
ourselves and, you know, work together to make this world a
(16:12):
better place that that then we would create heaven on earth.
Sadly, he received some pushbackfrom the established church,
didn't he? Because of that, he.
Yeah, he did. He received a lot of pushback,
in fact, that the truth is he never set out to create a
church. You know, he just was saw these
people and wanted to rescue themfrom misery and, and said about
(16:34):
that. And, and of course, once he,
once he saw them reach a place of salvation and want to change
their circumstances, he would try and introduce them to other
churches, but but they weren't welcome and they didn't fit.
And he very quickly recognised that if he was going to not see
these people slip back into the lives of which they've been
(16:57):
pulled from, that he would have to create a place for them.
And that's how come really, the The Salvation Army as we know it
today was born. It's a classic case of the move
of the Spirit re establishing the true foundations of the
gospel, isn't it? Because reading the scriptures,
God has always showed God self to be for the marginalised and
(17:19):
the oppressed and the least goodnews to the poor.
It's classic Jesus stuff, isn't it?
So wherever and I think sometimes the church just gets
comfortable in its, you know, inits prosperity sometimes and
seems to forget that I I think about then what is the link then
between the spirit and social justice?
(17:42):
What can? What connection is there?
Perhaps I've already answered that question.
Yeah. Well, I think this, it's the
Spirit that brings conviction, right?
And it's the Holy Spirit that gives us a hunger.
And I think the more that we hunger after God, the more that
we seek him, the more we see there's his love, his heart for
all people. And we do see then we look at
(18:03):
people differently. We understand that people land
in certain, certain circumstances in their life, not
always of their own doing. Some, you know, I, I, they
choose to believe that people, they make the best decisions
they can at certain times in their life and it leads them
down an interesting path. And all they themselves have
actually been victim to injustice and to hardship.
(18:27):
And so we believe, we want to see everybody made in the image
of God, right? And, and we know that the Lord
is drawing all people unto himself.
And so we by extension, become those feet, those hands of
Jesus. And yeah, I think that's the
heart. And and the Holy Spirit
absolutely directs our path. Yeah, I think whenever Holy
(18:48):
Spirit speaks, that's where we're going to find ourselves.
Because on the margins in the tough.
Places God's heart and it it means that God's heart's for
everyone. But because I think humanity
naturally is drawn towards the privileged and the prosperous
and we naturally forget. It's almost like Holy Spirit
(19:09):
intentionally works in the opposite spirit to redirect and
say, hang on, this person is just as valuable as this person.
Even though the world says the the wealthy or the the beautiful
or the high status person is of greater importance.
Actually, God is constantly saying no everyone, and
(19:32):
especially these, because we keep overlooking them, we keep
forgetting them. We are talking to the wonderful
Kim Howarth, the district commander of NSW and ACT of the
Salvation Army in Australia. We'll be back to talk more in
just a moment. What does God sound like?
(19:53):
How do I know it's him? They're the questions I asked
myself at 21. I'd read stories of God speaking
throughout the Bible, but I'd never heard His voice for
myself, so I decided to try it out.
Lord, and if you make it really clear, I'll do whatever you say.
My new book, God Conversations, is all about what happened when
(20:14):
I heard God's voice. It won't tell you how to hear it
as much as it will show you, as Jesus promised.
We can all recognise his voice and know it enough to follow.
Buy it now at godconversations.com.
We're back talking with now. I missed up the title.
The Major Howarth, the divisional commander.
(20:37):
See. It's the vocab again.
Lieutenant Major, soldier, Officer.
There's even a, there's even a general, isn't there?
There is the general is the worldwide leader of the
Salvation Army. And and and ATC a territorial
commander because I almost introduced you as ATC instead of
ADC. Yeah, Well, that's yeah.
(20:59):
And and you know, we're in 136 countries around the world, the
Salvation Army. So yes.
But we do have that quasi military terminology.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't You love titles. We've been having a lot of fun
with my Reverend Dr titles of lately because everyone drops
the Reverend and and says doctor, I said, but I'm I'm I'm
more holy than I am smart. But yeah, don't you love it?
(21:25):
Us humans, we love our titles. Back to our conversation.
I would like to know. So you and I met because we have
a shared passion over seeing more of the Holy Spirit move.
And I think just observing the nature of humanity, we tend to
default to safety, passivity, routine, comfort.
(21:51):
So let's talk about the Holy Spirit working in the movement
of the Salvation Army. What's your heart for the salvos
at the moment? Look, I think, I think my heart
for this elbows is that as we continue to journey, because
we've been through a lot of transformation in the last few
years in Australia especially. And I think that we are
(22:12):
rediscovering in a beautiful wayour identity and who we are in
Christ and who the Holy Spirit has raised us up to be.
You know, the part that we play in the body and, and I love
that, right, because there's such a, a sense of the Lord
moving on unity at the moment across the, the body of Christ,
But we do all play some different parts of that body.
(22:35):
And I love that. And so I think that for us in
the Salvation Army, you know, that Holy Spirit power was what
brought us into being. You know, the early army didn't
have all the bells and whistles that it does now.
It didn't have the resources it does now.
But, but we, we always had Jesus.
We always had the Holy Spirit And I love the boldness and the,
(22:58):
you know, the, the, the bravery and the, and just the pioneering
of the early army. And, and if there's a time for
pioneering, it's certainly now within the body of Christ
because we're in a place, aren'twe, where, and I say this more
broadly, that, you know, the church, Christendom is gone.
We're not what we were, but I dobelieve that we're not yet what
(23:19):
we're becoming. And in this time of going
through, I think it's now that we need to rediscover the Spirit
and, and being, you know, being people who listen, listen to the
Spirit, who discern what the Spirit says and, and who act on
that. And so, yeah, that's certainly
where we are in full agreement, Tanya, aren't we, about the way
(23:40):
God's moving in these days? I remember studying a piece of
research that was done that looked at what happens to
movements over time and it applies to every type of
movement. And each movement often starts
in the power of the Spirit, lotsof miracles and revelation and
spirit guidance and stepping outin faith and doing crazy radical
(24:04):
things, which is so true of William Boo's ministry.
I mean, he constantly did thingswithout money.
He just started a ministry. He just felt LED of the Spirit,
believed to God and saw the miracle work of God.
But what happens over time, again in every movement, is that
as we start to organise and we start to build the institutional
(24:26):
part of what we do, the the structures and formalise things
and get more resources, we get comfortable and we start
shifting into maintenance mode. And it's almost like we revert
back to reliance on our humanityand our human ability to get
things done, and we lose that sense of the power and the
(24:49):
leading of the spirit. And sociologists call this the
institutionalisation of the charismata.
Charismata mean meaning, moves of the spirit, graces of the
spirit. And it's almost like humanity is
destined to it. And that's what we have to to
keep doing, is recognise that that's our human default and
(25:12):
then intentionally work against it to come back to hang on.
We can't do this without God. Jesus said that you can't do
this without me. We can't save anyone.
We can't convict anyone. We can't heal anyone.
We, we play our part humanly. So how do we do that?
How do we focus back on the Spirit again?
(25:35):
Yeah, that's a, that's a great question.
I think you're absolutely right.You know, when, when movements
start, they have, they have basically have nothing to lose,
right? So they pioneer, they're bold,
they go for it because they knowwhat they're going after.
They're absolutely empowered by the Spirit.
And then you're right, over time, I think as it grows, as it
(25:55):
becomes successful and you know,in whatever success looks like
achieving its mission would be success for the Salvation Army,
then then all of a sudden you dohave something to lose.
You do have something that that create that needs to be
organised. It needs to be done well and it
needs to be done professionally and good.
And certainly that's the the place of the Salvation Army.
(26:18):
You know, professional social work now is it's huge, right?
And there's so much regulation and legislation and around what
we do in caring for people. And, and so it's really
important that we do that reallywell and we need to honour that.
That's part of being who we are as a Salvation Army.
But you're right, how do we, howdo we keep that pioneering
(26:39):
spirit? How do we make sure that even
though we're a big movement, youknow, we have lots of employees,
lots of volunteers and, and we're charged with doing this
incredible work. You know, we partner with
government and with others to dothis great work, but we do have
to try and keep our edge. And, and that is about going
(27:02):
back to the Lord, isn't it? It's about being surrendered
enough to be able and yielded enough to be able to hear what
Holy Spirit is saying, to be able to hear what God's telling
us in these days. And and then I think to have the
the steadfast faith to be obedient to that, even
(27:23):
potentially if it doesn't look like what the world thinks it
should look like. Yeah.
It's, it's a reminder to understand that the core of
salvation is the Spirit too, isn't it?
That we could do all these otherworks that are producing good
things, but actually the Kingdomof God is invisible.
(27:43):
It's spiritual and spiritual fruit is not quite the same as
what humans can do in their own strength.
So spirit leading leads to transformation at the very heart
level, isn't it so? That's right, I always.
Say focus on that. Yeah, that's right.
Like I always say, you know, we can do good things for God and
(28:04):
that's good. Like they are good things, you
know, but how much better is it to do God things for good
because they're the eternal things.
And and the Lord's just been reminding me of that in these
days that we're called to do thegreater things.
You know Jesus said you'll do what I've done and more in my
name, and so let's do God thingsfor good.
(28:27):
I love that. I often think too as being like
a partnership. So we start off with all of, you
know, relying on God, this this great interdependency in terms
of what God does and what I do. So this integral two way
partnership, God does God's bit and I do mine.
But then as we go along, God's part tends to diminish
(28:47):
sometimes, and it's all about what we do.
Right. I think we get really
proficient, you know what I mean?
Like proficient at things and I think then it's easy for us to.
Right to. Settle in that and and we're
good at it and we're and it's going well.
But I mean for just using my ownpersonal experience, Tanya, I
know that for me, when I've seenGod move the most in my life is
(29:12):
when I'm absolutely out of my depth.
Yes, yeah. And Adam, because the danger is
we, we do the stuff so well and then well, God's left the
building. We go, oops.
I've, I personally, Kim, I confess, I, I been working hard
at what I have done, been doing God conversations for 15 years.
(29:34):
And I know my stuff and I deliver it the best way I can.
But I'm just so aware that my words fall to the dust, whereas
God's words are the words that linger and that stay in that
produce power and life and miracles.
So that dependency on him. And, and perhaps we've been
talking about the Salvation Armymovement broadly, but perhaps
(29:59):
one way to to bring correctives to movements that need to keep
being in reinvigorated is that my spiritual life needs to keep
being reinvigorated, keep stirring it up, and never use
that cutting edge myself. Does that make sense?
That makes absolute sense. I think you're absolutely right.
(30:20):
It, it always starts with the one and you know, and then and
then the many together who are on a similar journey.
So I think it's vital that we that we continue to have our own
hearts stirred. Tanya, I think you're right.
I think we have to keep pushing ourselves out into the places
where maybe we don't have enoughresources.
Maybe we don't have what it takes, but that's where we find
(30:42):
the Lord and that's where the Spirit beckons us, I think.
And and then, and then we see him, we see him move.
And I love that, you know, that's, that's what we're all
about. So I'm thinking about our
listeners and I'm thinking aboutthe challenge of this
conversation. I wonder if you could give us
some wisdom on how an individualmight continue to reinvigorate
(31:07):
and keep refocusing on the work of the Spirit.
Because I think the older that we get, and you and I, we're not
that old, but we kind of are older than what we were in our
20s, but we knew nothing. We still don't know much.
Some wisdom on, on anyone who's listening to this, whoever you
(31:28):
are and wherever you're at, whatever age you're at, some
wisdom on how do we keep stirring up the work of the
Spirit in our lives? What does that?
Look like, yeah, look, I, I think probably one of the most
full, risky, but amazing ways todo that is to ask what's next
(31:50):
for me and what do you want me to do?
Because if you ask the Lord, that Holy Spirit will speak to
you, I have no doubt. And, you know, if you put your
plate yourself in a place of consecration and a place of
yielding, a place of surrender, then the Lord will absolutely
speak to you. And and then, but then there's
(32:12):
that, that piece of obedience, right?
That's the tough part. It's the, it's the part of
actually saying, all right, thenor OK, or, you know, I'm with
you and let's do this. And I think there's nothing
quite like stepping out into that place of unknown, which can
feel quite, you know, quite scary and quite overwhelming.
(32:34):
But if you know that law, the Lord has called you to that, if
you know that Holy Spirit is leading you to that, then then
being faithful in that, then youjust, you just, you see him move
and then you hunger for more of that.
And it becomes a, you know, a pattern.
But also what you see is this beautiful relationship of
(32:54):
partnering, of commissioning with the Lord in what we're
called to do. And there's nothing, there's no,
what better life could there be really then a life lived that
way? You know, it's, it's so much
richer, so much deeper, so much more beautiful than than all the
things this world can offer, really.
(33:16):
I love that there's always more,isn't there?
There's always more. If we're brave enough to keep
asking, keep expecting, keep having that faith to and and
perhaps understanding that we'reprone to becoming a bit lazy.
So let's keep. Right.
I think we naturally seek comfort, don't we?
(33:37):
It's a natural thing, right? I've been praying of like Kim.
God give me something that scares me.
Oh wow, time. Now that's a break.
Where do I get that prayer from?It's nuts.
Oh, it's good. You know, I have such a heart to
see renewal of the Spirit amongst the global church and
(33:57):
and to see the works of God be greater than what they were even
in the early church. So we're continuing to pray for
that. But Kim, thank you so much for
your precious time. Thank you for all the work you
do in leading the salvos in NSW and ACT.
May God expand your territory and may we see a real move of
God. Thanks again for joining us on
the podcast. Tanya, thank you and thank you
(34:20):
for your faithfulness in actually stepping out and for
you and doing what you believe the Lord has called you to.
And I believe that it is a now word that you have for the
church and God bless you and thank you that you so faithfully
share it. Well, thank you Kim, Love
chatting with you. Thanks for listening to God
(34:42):
Conversations with Tanya Harris.Don't miss the next episode by
subscribing to the show and yourfavourite podcast app.
And remember, the Holy Spirit was given so we could all hear
God's voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation.
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