March 31, 2025 • 40 mins
God spoke to Craig about healing for a lame Sikh priest. Then the police came…
Jesus said it was for our good that he left the earth (John 16:7). That seems hard to believe. What could be better than sitting down and having a coffee with Jesus?
Jesus is described as the living “word of God” (John 1:14) – that meant everything he said was God’s voice as well as everything he did. The early disciples could hear God’s voice as they were walking down the streets of Jerusalem, as they were sharing a meal with Jesus over bread and olives, as they were listening to Jesus preach on the temple steps. How could anything be better than that?
The answer of course is that Jesus’ departure signalled the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It was better not only because the Holy Spirit would remind us of everything Jesus said and did, he would also speak about things to come – that is, the issues that Jesus didn’t cover while he was on earth! It’s better because unlike Jesus who was limited to a physical body and the language and customs the first century Jews in the Greco-Roman world, the Holy Spirit speaks to apply those truths to new times, places and cultures!
In this episode you’ll see the truth of Jesus’ words. Our guest, Craig Stephens is an officer of the Salvation Army and has heard God speak in places like India, China, Pakistan and communities in his own hometown. Craig ministers as an evangelist across Australia and beyond and trains others to share the good news. He also works with global missions movement, Impact Nations, and loves to take teams across the world to train them in preaching the gospel and healing the sick.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- Craig’s God story, growing up in church but then leaving as he didn’t feel like he could behave well enough to meet the church’s standards. It was a few years later that Craig re-entered the church after a miraculous encounter with the Holy Spirit that changed his heart and gave him boldness to share his faith with others.
The Holy Spirit lit a fuse that wouldn’t go out!
- Craig’s God-conversation that led him into ministry and in particular, working among the marginalised and broken in Sydney. Craig tells how the Holy Spirit showed him a vision of his middle-class church being mobilised to serve the poor with details about the actual building they could use. Later Craig shares how a visit to the local police and an offer to serve in the most difficult area of the town led them to the exact building! Then they watched as God brought transformation…
I could see the people in our church carrying the grace they had in the community… the schoolteachers sitting alongside bedraggled, roughed up kids and coaching them in their schoolwork… the physiotherapists doing therapy in a particular room… the ladies who serve the morning tea hosting the community in a cafe. I couldn’t stop seeing it.
- The incredible God-conversation that led Craig and his team to pray a Sikh priest who had been lame since birth and the God-conversation that subsequently led to a last minute escape from arrest by the Sikh police.
- A God conversation that led Craig and his team to reach people by the side of the road at the Athens Olympics.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
I think it was Mother Teresa andsomeone asked her when does God
speak to you? And she said, whenever he wants.
How could I know if God was speaking to me?
And how could I know that that was actually just me thinking
about I just had some bad pizza?I just thought it was normal to
dream and have experiences. And she said to me, I actually
(00:21):
have a relationship with Jesus and he talks to me and it just
blew my mind. And then hearing the Lord speak
again very clearly and just saying this, this is where I've
called you to love himself. Jesus said we'd recognise his
voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation. Jesus said it was for our good
(00:42):
that he left the earth. Personally, I find that hard to
believe. What could be better than
sitting down and having a coffeewith Jesus?
Jesus is described as the livingword of God.
That meant everything he said was God's voice to us as well as
everything he did. So if you're a disciple in Jesus
(01:03):
day, you could hear God's voice as you're walking down the
streets of Jerusalem. You could hear God speaking as
you're sharing a meal with Jesusover bread and olives and as
you're listening to Jesus preachon the temple steps.
How could anything be better than that?
Hi and welcome to the God Conversations podcast.
(01:23):
My name is Tanya Harris and I'm a pastor, practical theologian,
author, and the founding director of God Conversations.
We're a ministry that is all about equipping you to recognise
and respond to God's voice. The answer, of course, to this
question is that it was best if Jesus left because then he would
(01:43):
send the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit would speak as the
continuing voice of Jesus wherever we went.
It's better because the Holy Spirit isn't limited to a
physical body in the 1st century, speaking the language
of the Jews in the Greco Roman world.
The Holy Spirit speaks to us to take the foundational truths of
(02:05):
Jesus and apply it to New Times and new places, to new cultures
and new countries. And that is why it's better.
And I think you're going to really see that as we talk about
this topic of hearing God among the nations, you'll see the
truth of Jesus's words, why it'sso good to have the Holy Spirit.
(02:25):
And our guest is a bit of an expert in this area.
But before I welcome him to the show, I think you're going to
love this conversation. It's quite profound.
But before I do, can I just say welcome to any new guest to the
podcast. You know, I've been travelling
quite a lot recently throughout the UK and, and Europe and
Western Europe. So if you are listening to this
(02:46):
podcast as a first timer and you're getting to know God,
conversations and a mystery, a special welcome to you.
And we pray the resources will be a blessing to you.
And don't forget, if you don't want to miss out on any new
ones, can I encourage you to jump onto godconversations.com?
There is a fortnightly newsletter that goes out to you
that notifies you of all the newvideos and podcasts and articles
(03:09):
that come up. We don't want to fill up your
inbox with unnecessary mail. You can subscribe at any time,
but we really want to resource you for how to listen and to
walk in the truth and power of the Holy Spirit.
So onto our topic. We're talking to a man who has
heard God speak in places like India, China, Pakistan and
(03:31):
unknown communities in his own hometown.
He is a Salvation Army officer who ministers across Australia
and beyond, working as an evangelist and training others
to share the good news. He also works with Global
Missions Movement Impact Nationsand loves to take teams across
the world to train them in preaching the gospel and healing
(03:53):
the sick. He is also a good friend and a
great guy. Welcome to the show, Craig
Stevens. Craig, we first met, I think it
was, was it only six months ago?It feels like I've already known
you for a lifetime. We met at a Salvation Army
Officers or Pastors conference in South of Sydney.
(04:14):
And from the minute that we met,we had a lot to talk about,
didn't we? So I'm super excited to to talk
with you today. Welcome.
Yeah, thanks a million. Great to be with you.
It's clear to me that our first meeting was not so memorable to
you because I thought we met at the the prophetic summit of NSW
(04:36):
at Jubilee where you were famously the Lady in Red and and
happened to be as well today. Well done.
But, you know, we also hooked upat the the The Salvos State
Conference, which, you know, youwere one of the keynote speakers
and I was not, but it was reallyquite a blast to hear from you.
(04:57):
We had a lot to talk about, it seems, and I think it's so
exciting what you are doing through the Salvation Army,
through your evangelism work, through prayer, through new
expressions. So for those of our audience who
may not have heard you or met you, which is quite surprising
because I feel like Craig knows everybody, every second person I
(05:17):
meet, but perhaps you can introduce yourself a little bit,
perhaps give us the Craig Stevens story, the highlights
perhaps. Oh wow, here we go.
Strap your seat belt on. This would be fun for sure.
Craig Stevens story. I am married to the very
beautiful Danny who I describe as the personification of peace.
(05:41):
You know people think that Jesusis the Prince of Peace.
Well, well Danny, my wife is right up there.
He eventually carries that grace.
That's a spectacular gift in my life.
I have 3 wonderful kids. They're all sort of in the
teenage kind of, you know, season at the moment, which is
keeping us flat chat. But my story is kind of one of
(06:02):
those guys who grew up in the church.
My mum and dad were Salvation Army officers or ministers and,
and so we were at church, I don't know, 25,000 times a week.
And, and that was kind of my experience.
And sometimes my parents were leading the faith community that
(06:22):
we were connected in. Otherwise other times, you know,
they were serving and had a, a different focus in ministry.
But, but my sister and I were forever in church and, and the
context of that was largely a rural setting.
I spent much of my childhood in a, in sort of rural and remote
communities and, and really lovethat it was a, a brilliant way
(06:45):
to, to grow up. But church, in my experience was
by and large, you know, as as seemingly as a, as a young, a
young teenage boy place where you had to really behave well
and, and the whole Christian journey was one of a measure of
how well you behaved. And you know what, I just
(07:07):
struggled so much. It was never articulated like
that. In fact, I could, you know, I
could never say that that was the message that I got loud and
clear from my family. But but it just seemed to be
that my brain packaged up walking with Jesus and a
behaviour modification programmewhich simply wasn't working on
this little black duck. So, you know, when I kind of
(07:31):
nudged into my sort of the earlyadult life, I took every
opportunity as soon as it came to bail out.
You know, I didn't, I wouldn't say that I had a dynamic
relationship with Jesus. I, I certainly was inquiring at
times, but there wasn't really any substance to my walk with
(07:52):
Jesus. And so when it was no longer
obvious that I was required to do so because I wasn't living at
home and I wasn't having to keepall the rules, you know, I, I
sort of checked out and bailed out.
And then a few years into that journey of me being lauded my
own life as a, as a, you know, ayoung adult and things going
(08:15):
particularly poorly, some friends of mine reached out
with, with some whispers and so on.
And they, they sort of said, oh,we've heard of this thing called
Holy Spirit, you know, like, youknow, there's, there's this
thing called Holy Spirit. There's this person in God
called Holy Spirit. And I, and the way they were
(08:35):
talking, I was just as intrigued.
I'm like, what, what? OK, this is interesting because
I, I definitely knew Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but I just
didn't know actually Father Son or Holy Spirit just knew about
it. And they had just an intriguing
sort of, you know, connotation in their voice.
And I was, I was just leaning inand, and they said, Oh, we're
(08:56):
going to, we're going to plant a, a, a new Salvation Army
church. And we think you should be on
our, on our church planning team.
And I went, Oh, that's hilariousbecause you probably want to
revisit your criteria. I don't, I don't do this thing
anymore, you know, like checked out and they go, no, no, you
should come. And, and so there was like a few
(09:17):
people and we started to just, you know, meet in the house and
and talk. And the way that they were
talking about Jesus, the way that that, you know, we started
to inquire about who Holy Spiritwas, was facilitated actually
through the Alpha course. And, and Nicky Gumbel packaged
that up brilliantly with, you know, those Holy Spirit
(09:38):
sessions. You know, who is the Holy Spirit
and how can I be filled with theHoly Spirit and those sorts of
things. And very quickly a group of us
were on a plane to Toronto airport Christian Fellowship in,
in Canada. And there was a reported
outpouring of the Spirit of God there.
And we thought, well, I don't know what that is, but why don't
(10:00):
we go and have a look? So we all jumped on a plane and
went and had a look. And I, I'd have to say that was
the, the moment where I was absolutely wrecked in the Holy
Ghost and, and came into the most remarkable encounter of
Jesus and, and the father's love, because that was a move of
(10:21):
God that was characterised by the, the father heart of God,
the, the loving fatherly nature of God.
And, and everything just seemed to do it, you know, just to, to
land all at once. And, and my journey was one of,
you know, in the tea room at work.
If someone ever mentioned Jesus,I, I was figuring out how to get
(10:41):
out of the tea room as fast as Icould.
And there was one time when I got trapped in the tea room with
a few work colleagues going you,you go to church.
Don't you crave, I mean, don't you have some sort of Christian
belief system or something like that?
And I'm, I'm, my heart's beatingfast and I'm freaking out and I
just, you know, I was manifesting and ran out of the
(11:02):
room sort of thing. And then after this encounter
with the Spirit of God, I just found I couldn't stop talking
about Jesus. You know, like I could.
Isn't that incredible? Yeah, I just, I had something to
say about this Messiah God, who had changed my whole life, you
know, and. Isn't that interesting when when
(11:23):
God becomes? Evangelism.
Isn't that interesting when God stops being a theory and becomes
a reality? I think that's such a
distinctive of the Holy Spirit. I mean, I was raised in a church
similar to you, Craig. I think I can't even ever
remember anyone talking about the Holy Spirit.
We, you know, was Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but not ever
(11:46):
ever talked about in any shape or form.
And, you know, I was reading something about a discipleship
survey recently, research piece of research by global youth
Culture, I think it was. And they had the traits of a of
a committed Christian and disciple.
And it had things like believe in Jesus, believe in the Bible,
(12:08):
pray, read the Bible and, and and that's it.
And then I looked at that, thosesix traits and I thought, there
is nothing on the Holy Spirit inthere.
It's like a we, This is why we believe in God and three
persons, you know, Trinitarian, but there's no Holy Spirit here.
And, and so I think sometimes there is a tendency for Holy
(12:30):
Spirit to become a theory and not just a not a reality.
And as it turns out, you had a stark reality, didn't you?
So that changed you. You were saying in evangel
evangelism, sharing your faith became easy for you.
Yeah, well, I, I, yes. And, and it's funny because I
(12:50):
really, you know, just had nothing to say prior to that
encounter with God. You know, like I, I just, it was
bankrupt of, of any actual content to share.
And, and what I just found was that I could not stop talking
about the wonder of Jesus. It was lit and it was a fuse
(13:12):
that was lit and it just hasn't gone out.
That was 27, eight years ago now.
And, you know, and I kind of absolutely love the journey,
love the the life that he's LED my wife and I and our family
into, you know, on the other side of it.
And yeah, I feel like there's a lot of people have said, oh,
you've got a grace in this ministry of evangelism and, and,
(13:35):
you know, importantly trying to help, you know, the body of
Christ to, to be comfortable in,in their encounters of Jesus
and, and what they might want to, you know, share of him with
others and who you're not yet walking with him.
Yeah, and, and perhaps you see the role of the Spirit in stark
contrast, don't you? Even with the disciples before
(13:56):
they were filled with the Holy Spirit and afterwards the
difference. You know, Peter was so
frightened and then afterwards he stands up in the front of
everyone at that first day of Pentecost.
He's so bold. And 3000 people are added to the
church that day. So we need the Holy Spirit,
don't we? And that's what God
Conversations is all about. Craig We, we love to hear our
(14:18):
own God conversation story. Perhaps you can.
Apart from that particular encounter you had in Toronto,
what has there been another God conversation that's been
significant in your life that you can share with us?
Yeah, I mean, there's a few, butin fact there's there was a good
conversation that came through our now national leader in the
(14:39):
Salvation Army in Australia. And we were moving in renewal.
We were moving in a space of theHoly Spirit being poured out in
in spaces. And a few of us were taking
these renewal conferences aroundthe country within the Salvos
context and they are now national leaders.
She put me aside in the middle of one of these renewal events
(15:00):
and she said I just have a word for you.
I feel like the Lord's given me a scripture that's to be your
life 1st and I I was like, Oh, wow, this is significant because
I didn't even know you might have a life first.
I didn't know that that was the thing and and she gave me this
scripture out of Isaiah 61. You know, the spirit of the
sovereign Lord is upon you and he has anointed you to preach
(15:24):
good news to the poor and he's anointed you to bind up the
broken hearted and to set free those in captivity.
And, and, and it's like, as she was speaking like the Spirit of
God was saying to me, Craig, this is who you are.
And, and it's, it's really been,I guess, the, the testament of
the spirit that's producing a work that is to proclaim the
(15:48):
gospel of Jesus Christ. That I that I'm kind of walking
in today. But that that question that you
had about a significant God, like not that that wasn't that's
that's a very, very formative conversation, you know, but but
the the moment really when I my my life was ridiculously
hijacked by God conversation wasthrough a ministry of a guy.
(16:12):
You might know, a mini that listeners likely do guy called
Tony Campolo, an American ministry from the state, you
know, States and a a really, really interesting guy.
And we'd had him at an event in Sydney and he was preaching what
he preaches everywhere in the world, which is, where are you
loving people like Jesus loves people, you know, Where are you
(16:34):
immersed in the poor and the marginalised and the broken and
the prostitutes and the lepers, and where are you living out
what Jesus lived out? And I was deeply confronted by
that question and, and I thought, actually the church
that we've just planted is a very lovely middle class, middle
upper class kind of space that'sin renewal now.
(16:56):
And you can look in the car parkany given week and there's, you
know, there's Porsches and there's BMWs and Mercedes Benz.
And it's, it's like this is a really swanky kind of, you know,
space that we're in. And, and to be honest, I don't
know that I would have known thepoor and marginalised if I
tripped over them in the street.And I, I quite possibly had to,
(17:19):
you know, to put it, you know, frankly.
And, and then I, I went home from that challenge and the, the
God conversation that happened was in the form of dream.
Well, well, actually it was a vision.
I felt like the Lord showed me avision.
He, the Spirit of God, filled mymind with a with a picture,
(17:42):
which was the church that we were serving in, mobilised in
mission into a distinct and defined community.
I could see the people in our church carrying the grace that
they had and using that in ministry and community.
So I could see the school teachers in our church sitting
(18:03):
alongside, you know, bedraggled,roughed up kids and, and kind of
coaching them in school work. I could see the physiotherapist
in our church, you know, with his table out and, and doing,
you know, physiotherapy on, on people in a particular room.
I could see the ladies who serveour morning tea at church.
I could see them, you know, serving in what looked like a, a
(18:25):
kind of a cafe kind of expression, but in this home and
in within community. And I couldn't stop seeing it.
And I kept thinking about it. It was like my whole life became
obsessed with what I felt Holy Spirit had shown me.
It was a clear, clear image. In fact, it came packaged up in
a building that was a two Storeybuilding that I I could see and
(18:49):
I could see how it all worked. And everyone that I would talk
to you about this, this vision, you know, they just seem to
light up with it. Like, yeah, that's, that's
something I'd love to do. You know, the school teachers, I
say, can you, could you imagine like just outside of school
context, coaching some kids and helping some.
So, you know, and they go, yeah,yeah, I'd love to do that.
(19:10):
Anyway, my wife and I jumped in the car and drove off to the
local area commander for police.And we said, hey, look, you
know, we're the church, we want to serve in our city.
Where's the problems in the city?
And the police commander had a big map on his desk and he
pointed to a spot right in the middle of the map.
He said that's where our call outs are.
(19:31):
Our gang related activity is thedrug houses in our city are
there. The domestic violence is off the
charts there. That's where you should go.
And there happened to be a largegovernment housing estate in in
the city. And so we hadn't even known that
it existed, but we jumped in thecar, drove to the housing
estate. And funnily enough, townhouse
(19:54):
after townhouse after townhouse was exactly the same type of
building that I had seen in thisvision from Holy Spirit the
three months earlier. The same vision that I hadn't
been able to stop thinking aboutwas being realised right in
front of my face. And I've got this is the place.
This is where we're meant to be like.
(20:15):
Owned me this I've seen this building, I've seen this place
and and Long story short is thatthe Department of Housing gave
us a a two Storey townhouse and said, you know, you've got 12
months to make a difference in this community and away you go.
And so my wife and I got the prompting to go live in that
(20:36):
community and and and serve and we did that for a dozen years.
So 12 years, 12 months wasn't enough.
We did 12 years there and watch the the Spirit of God bring an
incredible transformation. Wow, I love those.
Well, to know what we all say, we love those stories.
But if I imagine if you rewound 12 years before that, it would
(20:59):
have also been a bit of a scary adventure as well.
But how beautiful to be led by the Spirit so clearly into
mission and into local communityand into an expression of the
church. I the there's nothing better, is
it when the Holy Spirit gives you the strategy and the place
and the context and you know that God is with you.
(21:21):
You obviously, Craig, you've seen that in your local
community, but you've also seen that beyond your local community
into the nations and you travel and minister overseas with
impact nations. Why don't you tell us a little
bit about that? We're talking about God
conversations among the nations.What is it like to be led by the
(21:42):
Spirit in the nations? Maybe just give us the big
picture. How did that start as well?
You know, and, and like, it's, this is all part of the big God
conversation over my life, really, because even though I
was this young kid with a fairlysignificant disconnect to
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I was still growing up in church
(22:04):
and I, and I had this inclination in my heart that
maybe I should do missions. And it might have even been just
a really wrong left field thought about, you know, maybe
God will be very impressed with me if I dust myself off and
become a missionary of some sort, right.
But I I'm I'm convinced that it was actually a whisper from the
Holy Spirit, as you know, in amongst all of that mess, which
(22:28):
was to say, you know, there's something on you for for, you
know, other nations. And and I'm years and years down
the track from that and going, yeah, actually, I I really feel
that. And I have this great privilege
within the Salvation Army as a Salvation Army officer to be
released, to be able to take, you know, teams around the world
on behalf of impact nations, which is a a wonderful,
(22:51):
wonderful missions movement thathas a very, very beautiful
gospel that seems to be transferred transforming
nations. That's a whole nother good
conversation, I'm sure. But in terms of what we hear
overseas and in particularly in the mission field, I mean, you
know, it's tied to that life verse of Scripture that Holy
(23:11):
Spirit gave me. You know, you've been anointed
to preach good news to the poor.And the reality is that the poor
are in the developing world morethan and and with more
significance than in in most places on earth.
In, in, in India, one of the first times I had opportunity to
minister, I watched the Spirit of God bring a transforming work
(23:36):
in a in a Sikh village, he said to me, this is what I brought
you here for. And we watched an outpouring of
healing happen. Healing miracles.
Oh, I can't wait to hear more about that.
We are talking with Craig Stevens, Salvation Army officer
who is involved in evangelism and mission, talking about
hearing God's voice among the nations.
(23:57):
We'll be back in just a moment. Did you know that dreams and
visions are the most common way God spoke in biblical history?
And God still speaks in this powerful and creative way today.
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strange scenes that appear in our dreams?
(24:19):
The globally renowned God DreamsOnline course answers these
questions and more. It includes 6 teaching videos, a
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(24:44):
Welcome back to God conversations, Craig.
You've got me on the edge of my seat.
You're talking. We're talking about hearing
God's voice in the nations. You've just mentioned this
outpouring of the Spirit in India.
Can you tell us more? What was God saying?
What was God doing? Yeah, I had the privilege of
being in the north of India, in the Punjab, which is where I
(25:04):
guess there's a lot of, you know, volatility and a lot of,
well, violence actually being perpetrated on the Christian
Church. India is a nation where it's
illegal to proselytise and it isillegal to convert.
And so that's a very challengingspace in terms of people who
might encounter Jesus and chooseto fly with him in, in the
(25:28):
context of the Punjab, that means, you know, you you're
getting publicly baptised and making a decision that will end
up having you either arrested orfar worse, far worse.
And so, you know, we're watchingthe Kingdom advance in that
space extraordinarily. But one day I was given the
opportunity. Well, the first day I was in
(25:48):
India, given the opportunity to preach the gospel on a rooftop
of a Sikh village where we had microphones blaring across the
entire village and had felt to pray for and heal the sick.
And in one moment, four men had carried a man up onto the
rooftop where I was preaching from.
(26:10):
Does this sound familiar? It's hilarious.
Well, this man was being carriedup on a rug, so he clearly
couldn't walk. He was lame, had been lame since
birth. Intriguingly, he was wearing a
gold turban, which is to indicate that he was a Sikh
priest. And so these four men have
(26:31):
carried the Sikh priest onto theroof of building in the Punjab.
And the Lord Spirit of God says to me, Craig, This is why I have
you here today. It's to minister the healing
grace into his body. And so we had faith immediately.
I, I felt an explosion in my spirit of faith to see the man
(26:52):
healed. And to that point, I hadn't
actually seen the lame walk. And so this was new territory.
And we're on a, a rooftop in a Sikh village where, you know,
there's lots of question marks around what's gonna happen.
And my friends had their hands on this Sikh man's leg and I
placed my hand on his on, on, onhis forehead.
(27:14):
And we began to pray. And, and the ladies who had
their hands on his legs said they felt their hands expand as
as muscles grew on his legs as we were praying.
And then he stood up in front ofme and began to walk up and down
along the roof, which wasn't a pitch for it was a flat roof.
It was all very safe. But he had never walked.
(27:37):
And so the entire village watching that just erupted and,
and in that moment, it was his encounter of Jesus healing
power. It was, you know, it was was
quite extraordinary. And and it was just the sense
that the spirit had said to me, this is that moment, this is
that that I felt, you know, the confidence in him to to just to
(28:01):
believe God for his healing. He then founded in, you know,
when we invited him. Would you like to follow Jesus
and to trust him in leading you in the, in the days ahead?
But we were able to pray with him and he, he made a, a
decision in his heart. I want to follow this Jesus
who's given me capacity to walk.And of course, being the priest
(28:25):
in Sikhism, then the entire village of Sikhs then converted
to follow Jesus as well. And then I think it was a week
later and I'm ministering in a church in another city and he's
arrived with a crowd of people in a bus and walked down the
main aisle of that church and given a testimony of what Jesus
has done. And I just go, well, that's
(28:47):
just, you know, a, a glorious thing that we see in the
missions fields that, you know, a confidence in when you hear
the Spirit say this is, this is.Yeah, this is.
Yeah. And I think when God speaks,
God's words contain the faith oror the the power that then when
(29:07):
we hear God's words, we can connect with that and that then
gives us the faith to believe for whatever that might be.
I think. Yeah.
Yeah. Because, you know, I'm just
putting myself in your situation.
It's pretty hard to be in that situation.
Yet you have this incredible supernatural input.
(29:27):
It's it's very, it's very early church.
It's very Acts, isn't it? The story of Acts?
It sounds exactly like that. But we shouldn't be surprised,
should we? The same spirit who spoke to
them speaks to us. Love it, Craig.
Yeah. How I've had a similar sort of
experience, but a totally different playing out in this in
(29:49):
a, in a different Sikh village where we had a team of about 40
people and, and we were doing medical clinics and we were
praying for see healing the sick.
We were sharing the gospel in the streets and we're just
moving through. And one of our team had a an
immediate sense of God saying weneed to leave right now.
(30:13):
You know, we were seeing fruitfulness in the outreach of
ministry and whatever we need toleave right now.
And it was like, do we do? Is that from God?
You know, like, is that a what, what's up there?
And felt and prayed and, and theSpirit of God said, get on the
bus, get your team on the bus and go, OK, we were having a
great time, but let's all get onthe bus and go.
(30:35):
We got on the bus and he was sort of driving out and it was
later in the night time and about 3 or 4 minutes on the road
out the, the officials, the police and military arrive with
sirens blaring, driving past us because some drunk Sikhs at the
time had rung and, and alerted the authorities to proselytising
(31:00):
and conversions. All right.
And so they were here to come and arrest the team.
And, and it was just that the spirit had said to us on the
bus. Now you get out and we're
driving out and watching the response come and go.
Oh, that was one of those angelsopening the door moments of, you
(31:20):
know, just move now. Well done.
Well done for heeding that did. Did you have discussion?
Did you say, oh, look, come on, I don't think this is going
right here. Why would we leave?
Why are you thinking that? Are you scared?
What's your problem? Did that kind of conversation
ensue? Absolutely.
(31:41):
And, and, you know, and, and, and that it was somebody that I
had confidence who was familiar with hearing the Spirit of God.
And then we took the moment to just weigh a test and go, yes,
I'm sensing that's the right word for now.
We, we do need that, that, that confidence in God again to go,
yes, we have to act on that now.Now we got the team driving out
(32:04):
right. And, and the sirens are blaring,
driving past us. And one of the one of our team
members says, Craig, could couldwe have been arrested?
And this is a sort of an older lady who's a been at a school
teacher and just a lovely, beautiful Christian lady.
How do I go? Yeah.
(32:25):
And and then we would have been in gaol, but I would have been
in gaol with you and we would have prayed.
And then the Angel would have blown the doors open and we
would have walked out and. And she's looking at me like, am
I in the right place? Yeah, maybe she hadn't more read
the sub clauses warning exactly this could happen.
Wow. Do you know, I was thinking as
(32:47):
you're just talking, the beauty of the Holy Spirit is that you
know, Jesus said it is better ifI go because then I will send
you my spirit. It's for your good if I go.
And I don't think we're fully grappled with that because I
think most of us would rather sit down and have a conversation
with Jesus than have the Holy Spirit.
But what is so distinctive aboutthe Holy Spirit is the the way
(33:09):
that Holy Spirit goes with us wherever we go.
So you're in India, you're in Pakistan, you're in China.
And the Holy Spirit is familiar with that context and knows just
what to say and when to say it. You know God's revelation is not
limited to a physical 30 year old male in 1st century Greco
(33:32):
Roman world of Palestine. So tell me then, with your
experience of hearing God in your own hometown, in your own
home country, how is it different or similar to hearing
God in the nations? Yeah, I, I Gee, this is an
intriguing thought. You know, like, how's it
different with what we hear locally and, and and externally?
(33:56):
And so, you know, it's a really I'm wrestling with the question
because, you know, I wear this, this badge of Salvation Army
officer, you know, and, and, andin every respect, ministry for
us is being LED into, you know, the poor and the marginalised,
the broken within our communities in, you know, where
(34:17):
the salvos right there. We, we show up and pull the
sleeves up and get in the mess and the mayhem and serve, you
know, the addict, the alcoholic,the homeless, the, you know,
that's, that's where we are. And, and you know, his leading
in nations is, has been for me consistently to the poorest and
the marginalised and the broken.So there's been a consistency
(34:40):
and, and I can't help but tie that, you know, to the, the
scripture that our, our nationalleader gave me.
The the purpose is, you know, that he's placed me in, in this
context, He's anointed me to announce, to declare, to
proclaim the Kingdom of God has now come, you know, in different
nations, but in our neighbourhoods and to an
(35:02):
audience who, you know, in many contexts, you might consider
more poor and marginalised, the more broken.
I mean, we were, we were, I might do my best, right?
I'm out there doing outreach, admission and whatever.
We had a team of people doing stuff in the, in the Olympic
Games when it was at in Athens back in 2000.
(35:25):
We had a team, we were working in Athens and, and we're going
gangbusters with the local churches in there and preaching
the gospel on the streets. And people were responding and
we're in a bus driving from one place to the other.
And my wife says we have to stopthe bus now.
And the stop the bus now moment was we, we looked out and we saw
(35:47):
a crowd of people. And the crowd of people were
Roma people. They were gipsies, if you like.
They were the scourge of that city and they're on the outcast
out margins. And they they were, they were
refused to that city. And, and the Lord just
apprehended our bus full of teammembers and we went out and just
poured the love of God into thatcommunity and saw, you know, an
(36:10):
extraordinary response to the gospel.
And we went back a couple of days later.
This was totally off script, except it was the script of
Spirit of God. You know, what's the, IT seems
to me that he's very consistent with me in terms of catching my
attention to, you know, typically the, the more
(36:31):
marginalised and, and, and broken and those on the, on the,
on the outskirts in, in terms ofhis leaving.
And, and I guess the, the beautyof the confidence of my sheep
know my voice. I, I kind of go, Oh yeah, yeah.
I know that, I know that little interruption.
I know that little prompting to stop.
I know that that inclination in my heart to see what he's seeing
(36:55):
that others are driving past. Yeah, I might.
I might describe it like that. Listening to you, Craig, I'm
just thinking of the takeaways for our listeners.
And you know, I think the hallmark of your life is to be
on the edge of your seat, ready to move, ready to listen, ready
to be interrupted. And you know, every part of
(37:18):
those God conversations is connected to God's heart for
people, isn't it? So being able to see, stop the
bus now is to be able to see what as God sees.
And that hearing God's voice is going to shape our hearts and
our orientation, isn't it? To care for people beyond
ourselves, not just in our own little safe enclave.
(37:39):
But I also love how you had thatvision back into your local
community. You saw the physiotherapist
serving the needs of the people in physiotherapy.
You saw the women who were, you know, making food, that you saw
them in a different context as well.
So I think the beauty of what your emphasis is, is that that
(37:59):
call to listen and heed the Spirit wherever we are, that God
is going to open up our hearts to those who are reaching out
for, for, for, for God, for salvation, for understanding,
for a fuller the life that God has promised us.
I think it's the, the absolutelythe, it's the the ministry of
(38:23):
Availability. You know, I think the story that
the world has it on offer is a story of busy.
And in fact, we we wear that badge with great pride.
Oh, how you going? I'm busy, I'm busy.
I've got, you know, with the theimpression that we've got so
much on because we're so important And, and quite
(38:43):
frankly, we're so busy that we're missing, you know, the one
that's in front of us, the one that's off to the side, you
know, the the cluster of people in this location.
And. And I think yeah, that that
that's the the Spirit of God is constantly drawing our attention
to to a suffering humanity. And I don't mean that suffering
(39:06):
purely from poverty, but just, you know, the suffering that
people are going through and andthe space of the work of the
gospel is to exchange those ashes that they're walking in
for the beauty of Christ in our.King Amen.
Craig, if there are any listeners out there, I'm just
thinking, I'm not sure if God isspeaking to people who listen to
(39:28):
your story and go, oh, I'd like to be a part of what God is
doing in the nations. Where do we find about the
Ministry of Impact Nations? Yeah, that's pretty
straightforward. impactnations.com.
You know, you'll find that anywhere in the world.
impactnations.com and it's on socials everywhere as well.
It's, it's a, you know, very, very intentionally a missions
(39:52):
movement all over the world that's, that's working with the
most vulnerable people in the world.
But seeing, for example, our partner in India that I was
sharing about, we're going to mention his name, but has now
over 2,000,000 disciples in his discipleship network is just
great partners, impactnations.com.
You'll find them. Amazing, I love it.
(40:13):
Thank you Craig, our time has gone.
I'm sure we could top stories all day for what God is doing in
the nations and just want to thank you so much for sharing
your wisdom and insight and for walking the path of faith and
and availability. What a privilege.
I really am your biggest fan andI love that we get to do this
together. Bless you.
(40:37):
Thanks for listening to God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
Don't miss the next episode by subscribing to the show and your
favourite podcast app. And remember, the Holy Spirit
was given so we could all hear God's voice.
It was never meant to be a one way conversation.
God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
I think it was Mother Teresa andsomeone asked her when does God
speak to you? And she said, whenever he wants.
How could I know if God was speaking to me?
And how could I know that that was actually just me thinking
about I just had some bad pizza?I just thought it was normal to
dream and have experiences. And she said to me, I actually
(00:21):
have a relationship with Jesus and he talks to me and it just
blew my mind. And then hearing the Lord speak
again very clearly and just saying this, this is where I've
called you to love himself. Jesus said we'd recognise his
voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation. Jesus said it was for our good
(00:42):
that he left the earth. Personally, I find that hard to
believe. What could be better than
sitting down and having a coffeewith Jesus?
Jesus is described as the livingword of God.
That meant everything he said was God's voice to us as well as
everything he did. So if you're a disciple in Jesus
(01:03):
day, you could hear God's voice as you're walking down the
streets of Jerusalem. You could hear God speaking as
you're sharing a meal with Jesusover bread and olives and as
you're listening to Jesus preachon the temple steps.
How could anything be better than that?
Hi and welcome to the God Conversations podcast.
(01:23):
My name is Tanya Harris and I'm a pastor, practical theologian,
author, and the founding director of God Conversations.
We're a ministry that is all about equipping you to recognise
and respond to God's voice. The answer, of course, to this
question is that it was best if Jesus left because then he would
(01:43):
send the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit would speak as the
continuing voice of Jesus wherever we went.
It's better because the Holy Spirit isn't limited to a
physical body in the 1st century, speaking the language
of the Jews in the Greco Roman world.
The Holy Spirit speaks to us to take the foundational truths of
(02:05):
Jesus and apply it to New Times and new places, to new cultures
and new countries. And that is why it's better.
And I think you're going to really see that as we talk about
this topic of hearing God among the nations, you'll see the
truth of Jesus's words, why it'sso good to have the Holy Spirit.
(02:25):
And our guest is a bit of an expert in this area.
But before I welcome him to the show, I think you're going to
love this conversation. It's quite profound.
But before I do, can I just say welcome to any new guest to the
podcast. You know, I've been travelling
quite a lot recently throughout the UK and, and Europe and
Western Europe. So if you are listening to this
(02:46):
podcast as a first timer and you're getting to know God,
conversations and a mystery, a special welcome to you.
And we pray the resources will be a blessing to you.
And don't forget, if you don't want to miss out on any new
ones, can I encourage you to jump onto godconversations.com?
There is a fortnightly newsletter that goes out to you
that notifies you of all the newvideos and podcasts and articles
(03:09):
that come up. We don't want to fill up your
inbox with unnecessary mail. You can subscribe at any time,
but we really want to resource you for how to listen and to
walk in the truth and power of the Holy Spirit.
So onto our topic. We're talking to a man who has
heard God speak in places like India, China, Pakistan and
(03:31):
unknown communities in his own hometown.
He is a Salvation Army officer who ministers across Australia
and beyond, working as an evangelist and training others
to share the good news. He also works with Global
Missions Movement Impact Nationsand loves to take teams across
the world to train them in preaching the gospel and healing
(03:53):
the sick. He is also a good friend and a
great guy. Welcome to the show, Craig
Stevens. Craig, we first met, I think it
was, was it only six months ago?It feels like I've already known
you for a lifetime. We met at a Salvation Army
Officers or Pastors conference in South of Sydney.
(04:14):
And from the minute that we met,we had a lot to talk about,
didn't we? So I'm super excited to to talk
with you today. Welcome.
Yeah, thanks a million. Great to be with you.
It's clear to me that our first meeting was not so memorable to
you because I thought we met at the the prophetic summit of NSW
(04:36):
at Jubilee where you were famously the Lady in Red and and
happened to be as well today. Well done.
But, you know, we also hooked upat the the The Salvos State
Conference, which, you know, youwere one of the keynote speakers
and I was not, but it was reallyquite a blast to hear from you.
(04:57):
We had a lot to talk about, it seems, and I think it's so
exciting what you are doing through the Salvation Army,
through your evangelism work, through prayer, through new
expressions. So for those of our audience who
may not have heard you or met you, which is quite surprising
because I feel like Craig knows everybody, every second person I
(05:17):
meet, but perhaps you can introduce yourself a little bit,
perhaps give us the Craig Stevens story, the highlights
perhaps. Oh wow, here we go.
Strap your seat belt on. This would be fun for sure.
Craig Stevens story. I am married to the very
beautiful Danny who I describe as the personification of peace.
(05:41):
You know people think that Jesusis the Prince of Peace.
Well, well Danny, my wife is right up there.
He eventually carries that grace.
That's a spectacular gift in my life.
I have 3 wonderful kids. They're all sort of in the
teenage kind of, you know, season at the moment, which is
keeping us flat chat. But my story is kind of one of
(06:02):
those guys who grew up in the church.
My mum and dad were Salvation Army officers or ministers and,
and so we were at church, I don't know, 25,000 times a week.
And, and that was kind of my experience.
And sometimes my parents were leading the faith community that
(06:22):
we were connected in. Otherwise other times, you know,
they were serving and had a, a different focus in ministry.
But, but my sister and I were forever in church and, and the
context of that was largely a rural setting.
I spent much of my childhood in a, in sort of rural and remote
communities and, and really lovethat it was a, a brilliant way
(06:45):
to, to grow up. But church, in my experience was
by and large, you know, as as seemingly as a, as a young, a
young teenage boy place where you had to really behave well
and, and the whole Christian journey was one of a measure of
how well you behaved. And you know what, I just
(07:07):
struggled so much. It was never articulated like
that. In fact, I could, you know, I
could never say that that was the message that I got loud and
clear from my family. But but it just seemed to be
that my brain packaged up walking with Jesus and a
behaviour modification programmewhich simply wasn't working on
this little black duck. So, you know, when I kind of
(07:31):
nudged into my sort of the earlyadult life, I took every
opportunity as soon as it came to bail out.
You know, I didn't, I wouldn't say that I had a dynamic
relationship with Jesus. I, I certainly was inquiring at
times, but there wasn't really any substance to my walk with
(07:52):
Jesus. And so when it was no longer
obvious that I was required to do so because I wasn't living at
home and I wasn't having to keepall the rules, you know, I, I
sort of checked out and bailed out.
And then a few years into that journey of me being lauded my
own life as a, as a, you know, ayoung adult and things going
(08:15):
particularly poorly, some friends of mine reached out
with, with some whispers and so on.
And they, they sort of said, oh,we've heard of this thing called
Holy Spirit, you know, like, youknow, there's, there's this
thing called Holy Spirit. There's this person in God
called Holy Spirit. And I, and the way they were
(08:35):
talking, I was just as intrigued.
I'm like, what, what? OK, this is interesting because
I, I definitely knew Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but I just
didn't know actually Father Son or Holy Spirit just knew about
it. And they had just an intriguing
sort of, you know, connotation in their voice.
And I was, I was just leaning inand, and they said, Oh, we're
(08:56):
going to, we're going to plant a, a, a new Salvation Army
church. And we think you should be on
our, on our church planning team.
And I went, Oh, that's hilariousbecause you probably want to
revisit your criteria. I don't, I don't do this thing
anymore, you know, like checked out and they go, no, no, you
should come. And, and so there was like a few
(09:17):
people and we started to just, you know, meet in the house and
and talk. And the way that they were
talking about Jesus, the way that that, you know, we started
to inquire about who Holy Spiritwas, was facilitated actually
through the Alpha course. And, and Nicky Gumbel packaged
that up brilliantly with, you know, those Holy Spirit
(09:38):
sessions. You know, who is the Holy Spirit
and how can I be filled with theHoly Spirit and those sorts of
things. And very quickly a group of us
were on a plane to Toronto airport Christian Fellowship in,
in Canada. And there was a reported
outpouring of the Spirit of God there.
And we thought, well, I don't know what that is, but why don't
(10:00):
we go and have a look? So we all jumped on a plane and
went and had a look. And I, I'd have to say that was
the, the moment where I was absolutely wrecked in the Holy
Ghost and, and came into the most remarkable encounter of
Jesus and, and the father's love, because that was a move of
(10:21):
God that was characterised by the, the father heart of God,
the, the loving fatherly nature of God.
And, and everything just seemed to do it, you know, just to, to
land all at once. And, and my journey was one of,
you know, in the tea room at work.
If someone ever mentioned Jesus,I, I was figuring out how to get
(10:41):
out of the tea room as fast as Icould.
And there was one time when I got trapped in the tea room with
a few work colleagues going you,you go to church.
Don't you crave, I mean, don't you have some sort of Christian
belief system or something like that?
And I'm, I'm, my heart's beatingfast and I'm freaking out and I
just, you know, I was manifesting and ran out of the
(11:02):
room sort of thing. And then after this encounter
with the Spirit of God, I just found I couldn't stop talking
about Jesus. You know, like I could.
Isn't that incredible? Yeah, I just, I had something to
say about this Messiah God, who had changed my whole life, you
know, and. Isn't that interesting when when
(11:23):
God becomes? Evangelism.
Isn't that interesting when God stops being a theory and becomes
a reality? I think that's such a
distinctive of the Holy Spirit. I mean, I was raised in a church
similar to you, Craig. I think I can't even ever
remember anyone talking about the Holy Spirit.
We, you know, was Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but not ever
(11:46):
ever talked about in any shape or form.
And, you know, I was reading something about a discipleship
survey recently, research piece of research by global youth
Culture, I think it was. And they had the traits of a of
a committed Christian and disciple.
And it had things like believe in Jesus, believe in the Bible,
(12:08):
pray, read the Bible and, and and that's it.
And then I looked at that, thosesix traits and I thought, there
is nothing on the Holy Spirit inthere.
It's like a we, This is why we believe in God and three
persons, you know, Trinitarian, but there's no Holy Spirit here.
And, and so I think sometimes there is a tendency for Holy
(12:30):
Spirit to become a theory and not just a not a reality.
And as it turns out, you had a stark reality, didn't you?
So that changed you. You were saying in evangel
evangelism, sharing your faith became easy for you.
Yeah, well, I, I, yes. And, and it's funny because I
(12:50):
really, you know, just had nothing to say prior to that
encounter with God. You know, like I, I just, it was
bankrupt of, of any actual content to share.
And, and what I just found was that I could not stop talking
about the wonder of Jesus. It was lit and it was a fuse
(13:12):
that was lit and it just hasn't gone out.
That was 27, eight years ago now.
And, you know, and I kind of absolutely love the journey,
love the the life that he's LED my wife and I and our family
into, you know, on the other side of it.
And yeah, I feel like there's a lot of people have said, oh,
you've got a grace in this ministry of evangelism and, and,
(13:35):
you know, importantly trying to help, you know, the body of
Christ to, to be comfortable in,in their encounters of Jesus
and, and what they might want to, you know, share of him with
others and who you're not yet walking with him.
Yeah, and, and perhaps you see the role of the Spirit in stark
contrast, don't you? Even with the disciples before
(13:56):
they were filled with the Holy Spirit and afterwards the
difference. You know, Peter was so
frightened and then afterwards he stands up in the front of
everyone at that first day of Pentecost.
He's so bold. And 3000 people are added to the
church that day. So we need the Holy Spirit,
don't we? And that's what God
Conversations is all about. Craig We, we love to hear our
(14:18):
own God conversation story. Perhaps you can.
Apart from that particular encounter you had in Toronto,
what has there been another God conversation that's been
significant in your life that you can share with us?
Yeah, I mean, there's a few, butin fact there's there was a good
conversation that came through our now national leader in the
(14:39):
Salvation Army in Australia. And we were moving in renewal.
We were moving in a space of theHoly Spirit being poured out in
in spaces. And a few of us were taking
these renewal conferences aroundthe country within the Salvos
context and they are now national leaders.
She put me aside in the middle of one of these renewal events
(15:00):
and she said I just have a word for you.
I feel like the Lord's given me a scripture that's to be your
life 1st and I I was like, Oh, wow, this is significant because
I didn't even know you might have a life first.
I didn't know that that was the thing and and she gave me this
scripture out of Isaiah 61. You know, the spirit of the
sovereign Lord is upon you and he has anointed you to preach
(15:24):
good news to the poor and he's anointed you to bind up the
broken hearted and to set free those in captivity.
And, and, and it's like, as she was speaking like the Spirit of
God was saying to me, Craig, this is who you are.
And, and it's, it's really been,I guess, the, the testament of
the spirit that's producing a work that is to proclaim the
(15:48):
gospel of Jesus Christ. That I that I'm kind of walking
in today. But that that question that you
had about a significant God, like not that that wasn't that's
that's a very, very formative conversation, you know, but but
the the moment really when I my my life was ridiculously
hijacked by God conversation wasthrough a ministry of a guy.
(16:12):
You might know, a mini that listeners likely do guy called
Tony Campolo, an American ministry from the state, you
know, States and a a really, really interesting guy.
And we'd had him at an event in Sydney and he was preaching what
he preaches everywhere in the world, which is, where are you
loving people like Jesus loves people, you know, Where are you
(16:34):
immersed in the poor and the marginalised and the broken and
the prostitutes and the lepers, and where are you living out
what Jesus lived out? And I was deeply confronted by
that question and, and I thought, actually the church
that we've just planted is a very lovely middle class, middle
upper class kind of space that'sin renewal now.
(16:56):
And you can look in the car parkany given week and there's, you
know, there's Porsches and there's BMWs and Mercedes Benz.
And it's, it's like this is a really swanky kind of, you know,
space that we're in. And, and to be honest, I don't
know that I would have known thepoor and marginalised if I
tripped over them in the street.And I, I quite possibly had to,
(17:19):
you know, to put it, you know, frankly.
And, and then I, I went home from that challenge and the, the
God conversation that happened was in the form of dream.
Well, well, actually it was a vision.
I felt like the Lord showed me avision.
He, the Spirit of God, filled mymind with a with a picture,
(17:42):
which was the church that we were serving in, mobilised in
mission into a distinct and defined community.
I could see the people in our church carrying the grace that
they had and using that in ministry and community.
So I could see the school teachers in our church sitting
(18:03):
alongside, you know, bedraggled,roughed up kids and, and kind of
coaching them in school work. I could see the physiotherapist
in our church, you know, with his table out and, and doing,
you know, physiotherapy on, on people in a particular room.
I could see the ladies who serveour morning tea at church.
I could see them, you know, serving in what looked like a, a
(18:25):
kind of a cafe kind of expression, but in this home and
in within community. And I couldn't stop seeing it.
And I kept thinking about it. It was like my whole life became
obsessed with what I felt Holy Spirit had shown me.
It was a clear, clear image. In fact, it came packaged up in
a building that was a two Storeybuilding that I I could see and
(18:49):
I could see how it all worked. And everyone that I would talk
to you about this, this vision, you know, they just seem to
light up with it. Like, yeah, that's, that's
something I'd love to do. You know, the school teachers, I
say, can you, could you imagine like just outside of school
context, coaching some kids and helping some.
So, you know, and they go, yeah,yeah, I'd love to do that.
(19:10):
Anyway, my wife and I jumped in the car and drove off to the
local area commander for police.And we said, hey, look, you
know, we're the church, we want to serve in our city.
Where's the problems in the city?
And the police commander had a big map on his desk and he
pointed to a spot right in the middle of the map.
He said that's where our call outs are.
(19:31):
Our gang related activity is thedrug houses in our city are
there. The domestic violence is off the
charts there. That's where you should go.
And there happened to be a largegovernment housing estate in in
the city. And so we hadn't even known that
it existed, but we jumped in thecar, drove to the housing
estate. And funnily enough, townhouse
(19:54):
after townhouse after townhouse was exactly the same type of
building that I had seen in thisvision from Holy Spirit the
three months earlier. The same vision that I hadn't
been able to stop thinking aboutwas being realised right in
front of my face. And I've got this is the place.
This is where we're meant to be like.
(20:15):
Owned me this I've seen this building, I've seen this place
and and Long story short is thatthe Department of Housing gave
us a a two Storey townhouse and said, you know, you've got 12
months to make a difference in this community and away you go.
And so my wife and I got the prompting to go live in that
(20:36):
community and and and serve and we did that for a dozen years.
So 12 years, 12 months wasn't enough.
We did 12 years there and watch the the Spirit of God bring an
incredible transformation. Wow, I love those.
Well, to know what we all say, we love those stories.
But if I imagine if you rewound 12 years before that, it would
(20:59):
have also been a bit of a scary adventure as well.
But how beautiful to be led by the Spirit so clearly into
mission and into local communityand into an expression of the
church. I the there's nothing better, is
it when the Holy Spirit gives you the strategy and the place
and the context and you know that God is with you.
(21:21):
You obviously, Craig, you've seen that in your local
community, but you've also seen that beyond your local community
into the nations and you travel and minister overseas with
impact nations. Why don't you tell us a little
bit about that? We're talking about God
conversations among the nations.What is it like to be led by the
(21:42):
Spirit in the nations? Maybe just give us the big
picture. How did that start as well?
You know, and, and like, it's, this is all part of the big God
conversation over my life, really, because even though I
was this young kid with a fairlysignificant disconnect to
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I was still growing up in church
(22:04):
and I, and I had this inclination in my heart that
maybe I should do missions. And it might have even been just
a really wrong left field thought about, you know, maybe
God will be very impressed with me if I dust myself off and
become a missionary of some sort, right.
But I I'm I'm convinced that it was actually a whisper from the
Holy Spirit, as you know, in amongst all of that mess, which
(22:28):
was to say, you know, there's something on you for for, you
know, other nations. And and I'm years and years down
the track from that and going, yeah, actually, I I really feel
that. And I have this great privilege
within the Salvation Army as a Salvation Army officer to be
released, to be able to take, you know, teams around the world
on behalf of impact nations, which is a a wonderful,
(22:51):
wonderful missions movement thathas a very, very beautiful
gospel that seems to be transferred transforming
nations. That's a whole nother good
conversation, I'm sure. But in terms of what we hear
overseas and in particularly in the mission field, I mean, you
know, it's tied to that life verse of Scripture that Holy
(23:11):
Spirit gave me. You know, you've been anointed
to preach good news to the poor.And the reality is that the poor
are in the developing world morethan and and with more
significance than in in most places on earth.
In, in, in India, one of the first times I had opportunity to
minister, I watched the Spirit of God bring a transforming work
(23:36):
in a in a Sikh village, he said to me, this is what I brought
you here for. And we watched an outpouring of
healing happen. Healing miracles.
Oh, I can't wait to hear more about that.
We are talking with Craig Stevens, Salvation Army officer
who is involved in evangelism and mission, talking about
hearing God's voice among the nations.
(23:57):
We'll be back in just a moment. Did you know that dreams and
visions are the most common way God spoke in biblical history?
And God still speaks in this powerful and creative way today.
Of course, not every dream is from God.
So how do we know when it is? And how do we understand the
strange scenes that appear in our dreams?
(24:19):
The globally renowned God DreamsOnline course answers these
questions and more. It includes 6 teaching videos, a
downloadable study guide, and interaction with the God
Conversations team. We've kept the price super low
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Register today at godconversations.com/courses.
(24:44):
Welcome back to God conversations, Craig.
You've got me on the edge of my seat.
You're talking. We're talking about hearing
God's voice in the nations. You've just mentioned this
outpouring of the Spirit in India.
Can you tell us more? What was God saying?
What was God doing? Yeah, I had the privilege of
being in the north of India, in the Punjab, which is where I
(25:04):
guess there's a lot of, you know, volatility and a lot of,
well, violence actually being perpetrated on the Christian
Church. India is a nation where it's
illegal to proselytise and it isillegal to convert.
And so that's a very challengingspace in terms of people who
might encounter Jesus and chooseto fly with him in, in the
(25:28):
context of the Punjab, that means, you know, you you're
getting publicly baptised and making a decision that will end
up having you either arrested orfar worse, far worse.
And so, you know, we're watchingthe Kingdom advance in that
space extraordinarily. But one day I was given the
opportunity. Well, the first day I was in
(25:48):
India, given the opportunity to preach the gospel on a rooftop
of a Sikh village where we had microphones blaring across the
entire village and had felt to pray for and heal the sick.
And in one moment, four men had carried a man up onto the
rooftop where I was preaching from.
(26:10):
Does this sound familiar? It's hilarious.
Well, this man was being carriedup on a rug, so he clearly
couldn't walk. He was lame, had been lame since
birth. Intriguingly, he was wearing a
gold turban, which is to indicate that he was a Sikh
priest. And so these four men have
(26:31):
carried the Sikh priest onto theroof of building in the Punjab.
And the Lord Spirit of God says to me, Craig, This is why I have
you here today. It's to minister the healing
grace into his body. And so we had faith immediately.
I, I felt an explosion in my spirit of faith to see the man
(26:52):
healed. And to that point, I hadn't
actually seen the lame walk. And so this was new territory.
And we're on a, a rooftop in a Sikh village where, you know,
there's lots of question marks around what's gonna happen.
And my friends had their hands on this Sikh man's leg and I
placed my hand on his on, on, onhis forehead.
(27:14):
And we began to pray. And, and the ladies who had
their hands on his legs said they felt their hands expand as
as muscles grew on his legs as we were praying.
And then he stood up in front ofme and began to walk up and down
along the roof, which wasn't a pitch for it was a flat roof.
It was all very safe. But he had never walked.
(27:37):
And so the entire village watching that just erupted and,
and in that moment, it was his encounter of Jesus healing
power. It was, you know, it was was
quite extraordinary. And and it was just the sense
that the spirit had said to me, this is that moment, this is
that that I felt, you know, the confidence in him to to just to
(28:01):
believe God for his healing. He then founded in, you know,
when we invited him. Would you like to follow Jesus
and to trust him in leading you in the, in the days ahead?
But we were able to pray with him and he, he made a, a
decision in his heart. I want to follow this Jesus
who's given me capacity to walk.And of course, being the priest
(28:25):
in Sikhism, then the entire village of Sikhs then converted
to follow Jesus as well. And then I think it was a week
later and I'm ministering in a church in another city and he's
arrived with a crowd of people in a bus and walked down the
main aisle of that church and given a testimony of what Jesus
has done. And I just go, well, that's
(28:47):
just, you know, a, a glorious thing that we see in the
missions fields that, you know, a confidence in when you hear
the Spirit say this is, this is.Yeah, this is.
Yeah. And I think when God speaks,
God's words contain the faith oror the the power that then when
(29:07):
we hear God's words, we can connect with that and that then
gives us the faith to believe for whatever that might be.
I think. Yeah.
Yeah. Because, you know, I'm just
putting myself in your situation.
It's pretty hard to be in that situation.
Yet you have this incredible supernatural input.
(29:27):
It's it's very, it's very early church.
It's very Acts, isn't it? The story of Acts?
It sounds exactly like that. But we shouldn't be surprised,
should we? The same spirit who spoke to
them speaks to us. Love it, Craig.
Yeah. How I've had a similar sort of
experience, but a totally different playing out in this in
(29:49):
a, in a different Sikh village where we had a team of about 40
people and, and we were doing medical clinics and we were
praying for see healing the sick.
We were sharing the gospel in the streets and we're just
moving through. And one of our team had a an
immediate sense of God saying weneed to leave right now.
(30:13):
You know, we were seeing fruitfulness in the outreach of
ministry and whatever we need toleave right now.
And it was like, do we do? Is that from God?
You know, like, is that a what, what's up there?
And felt and prayed and, and theSpirit of God said, get on the
bus, get your team on the bus and go, OK, we were having a
great time, but let's all get onthe bus and go.
(30:35):
We got on the bus and he was sort of driving out and it was
later in the night time and about 3 or 4 minutes on the road
out the, the officials, the police and military arrive with
sirens blaring, driving past us because some drunk Sikhs at the
time had rung and, and alerted the authorities to proselytising
(31:00):
and conversions. All right.
And so they were here to come and arrest the team.
And, and it was just that the spirit had said to us on the
bus. Now you get out and we're
driving out and watching the response come and go.
Oh, that was one of those angelsopening the door moments of, you
(31:20):
know, just move now. Well done.
Well done for heeding that did. Did you have discussion?
Did you say, oh, look, come on, I don't think this is going
right here. Why would we leave?
Why are you thinking that? Are you scared?
What's your problem? Did that kind of conversation
ensue? Absolutely.
(31:41):
And, and, you know, and, and, and that it was somebody that I
had confidence who was familiar with hearing the Spirit of God.
And then we took the moment to just weigh a test and go, yes,
I'm sensing that's the right word for now.
We, we do need that, that, that confidence in God again to go,
yes, we have to act on that now.Now we got the team driving out
(32:04):
right. And, and the sirens are blaring,
driving past us. And one of the one of our team
members says, Craig, could couldwe have been arrested?
And this is a sort of an older lady who's a been at a school
teacher and just a lovely, beautiful Christian lady.
How do I go? Yeah.
(32:25):
And and then we would have been in gaol, but I would have been
in gaol with you and we would have prayed.
And then the Angel would have blown the doors open and we
would have walked out and. And she's looking at me like, am
I in the right place? Yeah, maybe she hadn't more read
the sub clauses warning exactly this could happen.
Wow. Do you know, I was thinking as
(32:47):
you're just talking, the beauty of the Holy Spirit is that you
know, Jesus said it is better ifI go because then I will send
you my spirit. It's for your good if I go.
And I don't think we're fully grappled with that because I
think most of us would rather sit down and have a conversation
with Jesus than have the Holy Spirit.
But what is so distinctive aboutthe Holy Spirit is the the way
(33:09):
that Holy Spirit goes with us wherever we go.
So you're in India, you're in Pakistan, you're in China.
And the Holy Spirit is familiar with that context and knows just
what to say and when to say it. You know God's revelation is not
limited to a physical 30 year old male in 1st century Greco
(33:32):
Roman world of Palestine. So tell me then, with your
experience of hearing God in your own hometown, in your own
home country, how is it different or similar to hearing
God in the nations? Yeah, I, I Gee, this is an
intriguing thought. You know, like, how's it
different with what we hear locally and, and and externally?
(33:56):
And so, you know, it's a really I'm wrestling with the question
because, you know, I wear this, this badge of Salvation Army
officer, you know, and, and, andin every respect, ministry for
us is being LED into, you know, the poor and the marginalised,
the broken within our communities in, you know, where
(34:17):
the salvos right there. We, we show up and pull the
sleeves up and get in the mess and the mayhem and serve, you
know, the addict, the alcoholic,the homeless, the, you know,
that's, that's where we are. And, and you know, his leading
in nations is, has been for me consistently to the poorest and
the marginalised and the broken.So there's been a consistency
(34:40):
and, and I can't help but tie that, you know, to the, the
scripture that our, our nationalleader gave me.
The the purpose is, you know, that he's placed me in, in this
context, He's anointed me to announce, to declare, to
proclaim the Kingdom of God has now come, you know, in different
nations, but in our neighbourhoods and to an
(35:02):
audience who, you know, in many contexts, you might consider
more poor and marginalised, the more broken.
I mean, we were, we were, I might do my best, right?
I'm out there doing outreach, admission and whatever.
We had a team of people doing stuff in the, in the Olympic
Games when it was at in Athens back in 2000.
(35:25):
We had a team, we were working in Athens and, and we're going
gangbusters with the local churches in there and preaching
the gospel on the streets. And people were responding and
we're in a bus driving from one place to the other.
And my wife says we have to stopthe bus now.
And the stop the bus now moment was we, we looked out and we saw
(35:47):
a crowd of people. And the crowd of people were
Roma people. They were gipsies, if you like.
They were the scourge of that city and they're on the outcast
out margins. And they they were, they were
refused to that city. And, and the Lord just
apprehended our bus full of teammembers and we went out and just
poured the love of God into thatcommunity and saw, you know, an
(36:10):
extraordinary response to the gospel.
And we went back a couple of days later.
This was totally off script, except it was the script of
Spirit of God. You know, what's the, IT seems
to me that he's very consistent with me in terms of catching my
attention to, you know, typically the, the more
(36:31):
marginalised and, and, and broken and those on the, on the,
on the outskirts in, in terms ofhis leaving.
And, and I guess the, the beautyof the confidence of my sheep
know my voice. I, I kind of go, Oh yeah, yeah.
I know that, I know that little interruption.
I know that little prompting to stop.
I know that that inclination in my heart to see what he's seeing
(36:55):
that others are driving past. Yeah, I might.
I might describe it like that. Listening to you, Craig, I'm
just thinking of the takeaways for our listeners.
And you know, I think the hallmark of your life is to be
on the edge of your seat, ready to move, ready to listen, ready
to be interrupted. And you know, every part of
(37:18):
those God conversations is connected to God's heart for
people, isn't it? So being able to see, stop the
bus now is to be able to see what as God sees.
And that hearing God's voice is going to shape our hearts and
our orientation, isn't it? To care for people beyond
ourselves, not just in our own little safe enclave.
(37:39):
But I also love how you had thatvision back into your local
community. You saw the physiotherapist
serving the needs of the people in physiotherapy.
You saw the women who were, you know, making food, that you saw
them in a different context as well.
So I think the beauty of what your emphasis is, is that that
(37:59):
call to listen and heed the Spirit wherever we are, that God
is going to open up our hearts to those who are reaching out
for, for, for, for God, for salvation, for understanding,
for a fuller the life that God has promised us.
I think it's the, the absolutelythe, it's the the ministry of
(38:23):
Availability. You know, I think the story that
the world has it on offer is a story of busy.
And in fact, we we wear that badge with great pride.
Oh, how you going? I'm busy, I'm busy.
I've got, you know, with the theimpression that we've got so
much on because we're so important And, and quite
(38:43):
frankly, we're so busy that we're missing, you know, the one
that's in front of us, the one that's off to the side, you
know, the the cluster of people in this location.
And. And I think yeah, that that
that's the the Spirit of God is constantly drawing our attention
to to a suffering humanity. And I don't mean that suffering
(39:06):
purely from poverty, but just, you know, the suffering that
people are going through and andthe space of the work of the
gospel is to exchange those ashes that they're walking in
for the beauty of Christ in our.King Amen.
Craig, if there are any listeners out there, I'm just
thinking, I'm not sure if God isspeaking to people who listen to
(39:28):
your story and go, oh, I'd like to be a part of what God is
doing in the nations. Where do we find about the
Ministry of Impact Nations? Yeah, that's pretty
straightforward. impactnations.com.
You know, you'll find that anywhere in the world.
impactnations.com and it's on socials everywhere as well.
It's, it's a, you know, very, very intentionally a missions
(39:52):
movement all over the world that's, that's working with the
most vulnerable people in the world.
But seeing, for example, our partner in India that I was
sharing about, we're going to mention his name, but has now
over 2,000,000 disciples in his discipleship network is just
great partners, impactnations.com.
You'll find them. Amazing, I love it.
(40:13):
Thank you Craig, our time has gone.
I'm sure we could top stories all day for what God is doing in
the nations and just want to thank you so much for sharing
your wisdom and insight and for walking the path of faith and
and availability. What a privilege.
I really am your biggest fan andI love that we get to do this
together. Bless you.
(40:37):
Thanks for listening to God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
Don't miss the next episode by subscribing to the show and your
favourite podcast app. And remember, the Holy Spirit
was given so we could all hear God's voice.
It was never meant to be a one way conversation.
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