July 28, 2025 • 33 mins
Why Can’t I Hear God’s Voice?
It’s been said that “hearing God’s voice is as natural as breathing,” so why do we often find it a challenge? If we were created to be in relationship with God, why do we find it so hard to hear the Spirit speak?
On this episode, we explore this question at a deeper level with prophetic ministry leader and spiritual director, Christine Westhoff. Christine is the President of The MESH Objective, a collective of psychologists, social workers, spiritual directors, and coaches who work to support the mental, emotional and spiritual health of leaders across the world. She is also a prophetic minister and trains church leaders towards a healthier and biblically based understanding of the Spirit.
You’ll learn about:
- Christine’s spiritual journey and how she navigated the near loss of her son and grandson. Christine shares how pain can create distance between us and God.
- Obstacles to hearing God – perhaps better expressed as “areas of resistance” we experience towards God. Christine highlights the challenge of vulnerability and shows that just like any human relationship, we need to open up the hidden areas of our heart in order to receive Spirit revelation.
- The importance of framing our “hearing God” experiences in the context of relationship. Hearing God is not some sort of mechanical skill. This is why spiritual direction – learning to hear God’s voice with the support of another person – is so valuable. Having another person alongside helps us to identify any areas of resistance we have towards God and how to remove them.
- Another obstacle to hearing God is a lack of understanding that we can receive God’s revelation through all of our senses.
- Some simple spiritual exercises to help us know our own thoughts and sense God’s presence with us. Here we learn the priority of understanding being withGod even above hearing from God.
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About Christine Westhoff
Christine Westhoff is the author and developer of ReFraming the Prophetic (www.reframingtheprophetic.com), a biblical reflection book and online course that aims to anchor the gift of prophecy into its biblical framework and purpose. She is a trained spiritual director and the President of the MESH Objective (meshobjective.org), a collective of psychologists, social Workers, spiritual directors, and coaches working to support the mental, emotional, and spiritual health of leaders and missionaries globally.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
God Conversations with Tanya Harris I.
Think it was mother. Teresa.
Someone asked her When does God speak?
To you. And she said whenever he wants.
How? Could I know if God was speaking
to me? And how could I know that that
was actually just me thinking? About I just had.
Some bad pizza. I just thought it was.
Normal to dream. And have experiences and she
said to me, I actually have a relationship with Jesus and he
(00:23):
talks to me and it just blew my mind.
And then hearing the Lord speak again very clearly.
And just saying. This, this is where I've called
you to love yourself. Jesus said we'd recognise his
voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation. Christine, it is so great to
(00:44):
have you at God Conversations today.
Welcome. Oh, it's such an honour to be
here. I love being a part of this
conversation. It's your favourite thing.
We have a lot in common, don't we?
And as you know, we met at the 24/7 International Prayer
Gathering last year in Rotterdamin the Netherlands.
(01:05):
Had a yeah, had a had a great coffee and compared notes.
I loved reading your book and sogreat to meet you.
We have so much in common. So great to meet you.
I have Pastor and your book on dreams to so many people, so I
have appreciated your work from afar.
That's wonderful, Christine, we are talking all things spiritual
(01:27):
direction. How do I hear God's voice and
what does that look like? How do I breakthrough some of
the obstacles? That it's the question that is
most commonly asked of people, You know, how do I hear God's
voice clearly? But before we get into that
topic, Christine, perhaps you can tell us a little bit about
yourself and how you got to be doing what you are doing now.
(01:49):
Well, I, I live in Tulsa, OK, I have two adult sons that are
both married to grand babies andmy wonderful marriage I'm
thankful for for 34 years. So those are the most important
bits. But how I'm doing what I'm doing
now, I honestly, you know, I sometimes feel like I, I never
(02:11):
could have guessed where God wasgoing to take me in my life.
We early on in our walk with theLord, we pastored a church at a
vineyard. We've been we've been elders and
leaders. I feel like we've done just
about everything inside of the local church.
We've ended up overseeing a lot of churches throughout the years
and stumbled into the 24/7 prayer movement about how 18 to
(02:33):
20 years ago somewhere in there.And they have been my global
tribe. And so everything that I'm doing
now has been out of relationship.
You know, it's where the Lord has I opened doors and the
spiritual direction bit just felt like a natural path for
both my husband and I because ofwell, we've just had a lot of
(02:55):
ups and downs. So, I mean, I think most of us
have, but the the longer you do this, this journey with the Lord
and you go into these deep places and you find all the
struggles, the spiritual direction conversation just gave
us the most room to be able to have those conversations in in
(03:15):
deeper context, if that makes sense.
So yeah, I could bore you with the rest of my story, but that's
about it. We've stumbled our way.
Through Haven't We All? I love that you've had that
strong connection with 24/7 Prayer.
We were just chatting about the beautiful nature of that
movement and how there's such a beautiful godly spirituality
(03:37):
and, you know, with such a breadth and the depth of the
global church. What a privilege to be a part of
that. And obviously prayer is a two
way conversation, both sides of the conversation.
And you've also been involved inleading the prophetic in
different churches as well. You have a kind of a side branch
reframing the prophetic. And I think perhaps seen of a
(03:59):
lot of what I've seen too in thechurch that there is some
reframing to do. There's a lot of reframing that
is necessary for sure when we, especially here in the States,
we have seen quite a lot of abuse in relationship to the
prophetic. I believe in the prophetic with
my whole heart. I see it biblically, I believe
(04:19):
in it theologically, and yet I don't feel like I've ever seen
it fully functioning the way that we see it demonstrated in
Scripture. So it's, it's one of my missions
is to continually open up that conversation within reframing
the prophetic. I have a book and then we've got
a full 14 week kind of a collegesemester course where it's open
(04:42):
conversation or on different like a biblical observation
course. It's it's fascinating.
So we don't claim to know a lot of facts, but we do have a
marvellous time wondering about the scripture together relating
to the prophetic. I'm trying to redeem some of the
misuses we've seen in the world today.
(05:04):
Yeah, I saw that in your book. You were picking up on some of
the things I had observed as well, particularly that
disconnect between the Spirit and Jesus.
And you know, you can get all these people operating in a
prophetic gifting, but their characters are so far from
Jesus, unfortunately, which is one of the the tragic issues, I
think. And so we come back to or what
(05:27):
is the spirit saying in an individual's life and perhaps
zoning in on the nature of what that looks like today based on
the revelation that we see in Scripture.
But before we get into perhaps spiritual direction in someone
else's life, what about you? We love to talk about stories at
God conversations. And so I'm going to ask you,
Christine, what's a favourite ora significant God conversation
(05:51):
story that you could share with us from your experience?
Oh my goodness, that's, that's abroad question.
I, you know, I would compare, I often compare my relationship
with Dodd to any other intimate relationship, whether it's a
(06:11):
spouse or a significant other, The most intimate relationship
in your life, the journey that you go on with that person to
grow more and more intimate is, is so complex, it's so nuanced.
It's so full and rich. And that's what it is like with
the Lord as well. And I was saying my most recent
(06:33):
journey with him wouldn't be onespecific man.
I could tell you the big prophetic stories, but those are
not the nor I like the more downto earth normal stories.
You know, I had a really difficult year a couple of years
ago where my grandson almost died and my son almost died 4
(06:53):
times. It was filled with a lot of
trauma. And this is just on the backside
of COVID. So there is, there's a lot,
obviously a lot going on in our country, a lot of challenges, a
lot of the church turning on itself.
And I was in quite a state of woundedness and turmoil.
(07:14):
And of course, I was seeking help.
I was going to a spiritual director myself.
I got into some therapy. But in these moments of crisis,
I knew, like, even though I had a good solid theology around
suffering, I, as I was experiencing that the terror of
losing a son and a grandson, that I shut my heart off.
(07:39):
I could feel me, my, my. Heart.
Just distancing myself from God and I felt powerless to do
anything about it. And but I could talk to him
about it. Like I know I'm doing this, you
know, it's almost like if if a close friend betrays you or if a
spouse lies to you, that that's what it felt like.
(08:01):
God didn't betray me, but it didn't change my emotional
experience where I felt betrayed.
And I understand why that's terrible theology.
I understand why that's simply not true.
But my emotions still felt it right no matter what my brain
understood about what is right theology.
(08:22):
What should my expectations be? Why and why am I reacting this
way in the middle of trauma? I just did and and I have done
that a couple of different timesin my life and then I've had to
take a journey of opening up my Verde again.
And that has been some of the the most challenging, the most
(08:44):
deeply intimate and gut wrenching, but also the most
beautiful times is going on thatjourney of healing in my
intimacy with thought, because it's it's not like I wanted
done. It's not like, oh, now I'm
intimate with God. I'm just going to be there
forever. No, this is a relationship.
It's, it moves in and out and upand down like life does, you
(09:06):
know, yes. Yes, and I think I think that
whole experience of shutting down when difficult times were
becoming distant from God is quite a human reaction to that.
We see in different ways. So how did you get through that,
Christine? Not well.
I would like I said was help from a spiritual director, help
(09:29):
from a therapist who's also a spiritual director, help from
friends. But honestly, it felt like bit
by bit, it felt little by littleas I walked out the last couple
of years in and chipping away atthe whether it was the lies that
(09:49):
I was believing or accusations that I had that a part of me had
made. I like the parts language.
Like it's not all of me. I mean, I could preach the
gospel to you all day long and tell you and mean it like I
wasn't lying to myself. But there was still a small part
of me that didn't know if I trusted God with my the deepest
(10:14):
core of my being. And that was a new feeling for
me. And it was important that I not
try to rush my way out of it, but that I I went deeper.
I could go into those deeper recesses of my heart and deeper
places where I knew him, even though I didn't like the current
(10:35):
feeling that I was experiencing.Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And here perhaps we see the
value of a spiritual director infollowing God in walking with
Jesus, because that's one of your roles now.
And having walked it at the receiving end, I'm sure that
helps and has equipped you to bethe spiritual director that you
(10:56):
are. So I, I want to take you into
that space a little bit. Imagine that I was coming along
and I said, Christine by my spiritual director, I can't hear
God's voice. I, you know, people talk about
this, but I'm, you know, it's not clear for me.
What would you do? How would you help me?
Yeah, I would begin with a lot of questions because everybody's
(11:20):
so unique. Everybody's different, you know,
but I would probably start with questions around vulnerability.
How? Because it's, it's vulnerable to
be loved, right, To let someone love you.
And if we, if we are on a journey, all of us are on a
(11:40):
journey of learning how to be loved, we love other people much
easier than we can allow ourselves to be loved.
And the and the love of God is acontinual revelation throughout
our life. So I would probably ask some
questions around that end. I might poke around and ask
about about shame, about self protection, those kinds of
(12:07):
tendencies that most humans battle with from time to time,
fear of rejection from God. There there's any number of
emotional reactions that we could have that might put up a
wall or a barrier that that tendto, you know, with one hand
we're pulling God towards us, with the other hand we're
(12:29):
pushing him away, right? And that that is quite common
within most of us. I like how you frame that,
Christine, because I think sometimes when we talk about
hearing God's voice, people can expect to hear something
mechanical. You know, how do I do this?
And well, you follow these threesteps and you confess this sin
and you pray this prayer and youspend this time.
(12:51):
I like how you frame it in termsof the relationship and the
ability to be vulnerable. I wonder, you know, most people,
I think when they sign up to hear God's voice, don't think,
oh, I need to learn to be vulnerable.
It's it's not, it's not what? Hang on, what do you mean?
What does that mean? It's.
(13:12):
True, we most often just want tolearn a spiritual skill, right?
But it I wish it simple, but it's not.
He not only wove us together, but He dwells in our innermost
being. I mean, this is a profoundly
intimate relationship and he is invasive in the way that he
(13:33):
pursues us, right? And so that's a complex journey.
And hearing him, let me just say, as I know that you often
talk about as well, isn't alwaysjust hearing a voice, right?
It's, it's sometimes might be, but sometimes it's more sensing
his nearness. It can be discerning his
(13:53):
presence and his hand in your back as he's pushing you
forward, or as the Holy Spirit is drawing you somewhere and and
whispering that the the essence of something, but you're not
quite hearing words. I mean, this is an embodied
communication with God. Yeah, right.
It's so true and I'm thinking too.
(14:15):
Jesus said those have ears to hear, will hear.
Seek me until you find me. Knock, ask.
And I do think what why? Why seek, ask and knock?
Why not automatically, you know,put your your money in the slot
and get your answer out? And I wonder, yeah, that process
of seeking and asking and knocking asking is an active
(14:38):
vulnerability, isn't it? Because it opens up our heart.
And I think maybe we can't downplay that as part of the
process of receiving what the spirit is saying is posturing
the heart. And actually, if I've got my my
arms crossed in front of me and I'm standing back as a sceptic
(15:01):
or a cynic hardening myself, then this is not the formula,
this is not the posture, this isnot what it's needed.
Perhaps this is where spiritual direction comes into play too,
because you're another person I can relate to where in the human
sense this is going to become obvious.
(15:22):
Very much so. And those things matter.
Like if you find yourself retreated back, we know with
your hands crossed and your heart closed and then you're mad
at God for not talking, or you're like, I, I can't hear
God's voice. And I don't know why it, it
helps to sit with somebody else to, to dig into those places a
(15:43):
bit rather than just try to pretend it's not there, right?
We don't want and like, yeah, myheart's closed right now or I
feel resistant. I don't want to ignore that
that's happening. I want to find out why.
We want to be able to learn how to listen to our resistance and,
and let it have its voice so that it can be heard and
(16:06):
hopefully healed rather than just shoved aside.
And as we try to learn a spiritual skill, you know it all
matters, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Yeah, I it's interesting. I've never had a spiritual
director formally, but I have had some very good friends who
are very good listeners. Yeah, actually my experience has
also been Christine. I wonder if this is connected,
(16:28):
that the times I've really pressed into hearing God are the
times when I have been in pain. And perhaps in our pain there is
a cracks open our vulnerability because if everything is going
on fine, you know, then I'm probably more likely to stand
back. But if I'm in pain, then my pain
will push me into that place of vulnerability where I'm hungry
(16:53):
and I'm seeking more of God. Have you found that with people?
Yeah, very much so. But in fact, sometimes we're, we
have a hard time hearing him because we're resisting going to
the place of pain inside of us. We're in denial of the pain, and
when we're in denial of those deep places inside of us, then
(17:13):
it will be harder to hear him because he, he's having one
conversation with us, but we're trying to have a different
conversation, you know? Yeah, that totally makes sense.
We're talking today with Christine Westhoff, the author
and developer of Reframing the Prophetic, all about the process
of hearing God's voice in the context, particularly of
(17:34):
spiritual direction. We'll be back in just a moment.
Welcome back to God conversation.
Such an honour to chat with a sister and like minded person
from across the planet. Christine, what a joy you are
This trained spiritual director and the president of the Mesh
objective. I like the sound of this.
(17:54):
A collectivist, psychologist, social workers, spiritual
directors and coaches working together to support mental,
emotional and spiritual health of leaders and missionaries
globally. I love that combination of
psychologists and social workersand coach.
Like, I love how it's so holistic.
And, you know, we're talking about hearing God's voice,
(18:15):
something which we think, oh, that happens on a Sunday in a
church service, but you're framing it in a much more
holistic relational sense. Is that a wise way to put it?
Very wise. I would completely agree with
that, yeah. So we've talked about a lack of
vulnerability as an obstacle. What other obstacles can stop us
(18:39):
from hearing the voice of God? I'm pausing because I am.
I sometimes don't think there isany obstacles because God's
bigger than any obstacles. We throw up, right?
I do think that we can put up resistance to God in many ways
(19:03):
and the ways that we resist him,even just a part of us, like I,
I mentioned the parts language, you know, there's a, there's a
part of me that is fully surrendered to God, but another
part of me has fear, a trepidation or another party.
Part of me might be a little scared of what he might tell me,
(19:24):
you know, so it depends on what's going on inside of us
that that might be causing some resistance to hearing him.
The reality is, is that we are hearing God is more natural for
us than eating food and drinkingwater.
It should be the most natural thing in the world that that we
would be in communion with our Creator.
(19:47):
But because of our fallen humanity, we've learned traits
that can be resistant to love, or we could hide be hiding it.
Parts of us can be hiding in shame, or we don't want to give
God access to parts of us that could be one of the ways that we
are resisting him. Or if we like we're, we're
(20:13):
afraid that he's going to ask usto give up what we don't want to
give up. Where I was, I had.
I had. That big I would never forget as
a 21 year old. I was terrified.
I'm like, what is God going to say?
He's going to ask me to do something I don't want to do.
Like I was like, Oh no, please, please God, don't send me out on
you know, some far from place and don't don't ask me to marry
(20:37):
someone I'm not attracted to. Like what if, what if I said God
speak to me? You know what's God going to
say? Yeah.
And I guess having those thoughts is probably a
reflection of my image of God ormy distorted image of God.
(20:59):
Yeah, of course. And we all have different levels
of distorted image of God. I mean, we've no one has seen
God in lived right. So we're all learning more and
more of who he is. But there's many things that
would cause us to maybe miss God's voice.
Sometimes it's just a simple learning how to listen.
(21:23):
How do we even listen to God? And the same way how we learn to
listen to another person. Can I?
Is my heart open to and receive from God through my senses,
through my dreams like you pointout in your dreams?
Am I or does He scare me or intimidate me or my control and
(21:44):
issue in my life? I mean our journey into His
voice is really individual and and deeply intimate.
It really is. I remember a young woman telling
me how she struggled to hear God's voice because she'd had a
really difficult relationship with her earthly father.
(22:05):
And she said it was when God started to change my image of a
father that I began to be able to hear clearly what God was
saying because I was filtering it through this distorted image.
I have what God is like. Well, well, yeah, that happens
quite often. Yeah, you would see that in your
(22:26):
work, I imagine. I often say to people, I think a
great starting point then is to let's have a look at what God is
like in Jesus. Let's just learn about Jesus.
Let's just, you know, plug ourselves in really deeply into
the things of what Jesus said and did.
And knowing that the Spirit sounds like Jesus, then I have
nothing to fear. Jesus said when you ask for
(22:48):
bread, God's not going to give you a stone.
That is exactly right, yeah. We had AI actually had a
testimony this week. I'd love to share this one with
you from a church in in our country in Canberra.
They had just gone through our 50 days of God conversations and
there was one woman there who God spoke to about loving her
father, forgiving her father. And she found that difficult to
(23:11):
do because the father was very performance oriented.
And she had this childhood experience where her father had
said if you do well at school, I'll give you a horse.
So of course she performs. She wanted a horse desperately
and she works really hard at hergrades and she comes out with a
high grade and then her father didn't give her a horse.
(23:31):
He tricked her, he used her and it's.
Horrible. Right.
And then so in the process of really focusing on hearing God's
voice in their church, she felt God say forgive your father for
that. And she did.
She went on this journey of forgiving her father and very
(23:52):
soon afterwards someone miraculously out of the blue
gave her a horse. Oh, you are kidding.
No. No, it's it's the best.
Profound testimony, Ever. But isn't that classic?
That is so beautiful, I love that so much.
(24:14):
That's classic Holy Spirit. So I just love it.
So some some things that perhapswe need to work through to
change those distortions of whatGod is like in order to hear his
voice clearly. But you also talk about in your
book about paying attention. Yes.
What does it mean to pay attention?
(24:35):
Yeah, you know, pay attention. I would say it's, it's learning
to become be more aware of what is going on inside of us and
become more aware of of God's presence and action within us
and through US and around us. We are surrounded by him.
(24:59):
The incarnation of Christ is so profound to me that he, he put
himself inside of frail humanity, frail, broken
humanity, forever redeeming our,our life and every day of our
journey. He walked in our footsteps.
It's just amazing. And so to to shift and be able
(25:22):
to see the, the whole world as aburning Bush, so to speak, that
he is everywhere revealing himself everywhere.
The time he reveals himself and the Holy Spirit does his job
very well and revealing the person of Christ.
And and as we know, the person of Christ is the meeting place
(25:42):
between heaven and earth. And so when Christ as the
meeting place between heaven andearth, as the temple blind
inside of human flesh, the question, is it possible that
human flesh is the divine meeting place with God like this
is our meeting place with God? And so in paying attention, it's
(26:06):
first knowing and trusting that he is already moving, He's
already communicating. We are living in communion with
Him as his created ones, as as the dwelling place of his Spirit
on the earth. It's amazing to me.
And if we can grow in our awareness of that, of Him, as
(26:30):
well as our awareness of ourselves, we will be able to
begin to sort out like, Oh yeah,this is my emotional trigger,
but this is what God is actuallysaying, or this is my
resistance. I can tell I'm trying to push
God away a bit right now, but I'm not going to do that, Lord.
I'm going to open up my heart and let you in.
(26:50):
It's that growing in our abilityto listen to our own interior
landscape as well as listening to the presence and action of
God, not just for his words. Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely. Being aware that God could
reveal God's self any time. Everything that every part of
(27:11):
our lives is, is part of God's world.
So I love that. What does that look like
practically? So I wake up in the morning.
How do I how do I love what you said, but if I am one of your
clients, how do I actually enactthat?
(27:32):
We I have some exercises that I I like to lead people through
just in a quiet, prayerful spaceso they can begin their days
with. One of them is just an awareness
of spending some time paying attention to your thoughts,
what's going on in your head. Maybe jot down like these are
the pervasive thoughts of my mind today and I give those over
(27:55):
to the Lord. These are my invasive emotions
that are rolling around inside of me.
And then and then trying to dropinto some deeper places with the
Lord, to just listen and be withhim.
Not necessarily listen for specific words, but to open up
our heart to be with Him and to be aware of Him.
(28:17):
And so every morning I'm asking for Him to help me because I'm
not always aware of Him. I can get so distracted
throughout my day, right? I'm so distracted by whatever is
going on around me, and most of us are.
I can turn my attention as oftenas possible throughout the day.
Back to the fact that He is withme.
(28:38):
He is Emmanuel, He is here and Ican simply be with Him just like
if my husband was in the room with me, even if we weren't
talking, we would still be with each other.
There's a an awareness that we can grow in that that I think is
life changing when we so. I do want to hear his voice,
(29:00):
don't get me wrong, but the witness of God feels even more
important. Yeah, that's his.
Yeah, that's the starting point,isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah, isn't it?
I think sometimes when we talk about hearing God's voice, we
expect that to be identifiable, this moment when God spoke.
And that is true and important. But in actual fact, there's much
(29:23):
a much bigger picture, isn't there?
Relationship with someone is notjust one little conversation at
a particular moment, it's a witness, as you say.
I love that. I was even perhaps thinking
particularly with your connection with 24/7 prayer.
One of the things that they havereleased is the Lectio 365 app,
which has a morning prayer and evening prayer, and I think
(29:44):
we're working towards a midday one.
Perhaps that's something too, asa tool to help us keep
connecting with God, just helping those that distractive
tendency that we have, that busyness that we have just to
keep clocking in at points during the day, to maintain that
openness to God throughout the day.
(30:04):
Yeah, absolutely. I love the morning, midday and
evening, those touch points, those and Lectio 365 is just
brilliant. It's deep and beautiful and
that's that, that's a tool that helps to lead us into that place
with God. I just, I love it.
And every time of day rhythm as well.
(30:24):
It's it's just beautiful. I love that Christine, it's been
such a blessing to have you herewith your incredible wisdom and
insight. I feel like I've had my own
spiritual direction session. I hope that everyone else has
felt that. I wonder, I wonder if you could
just bring your wisdom to a prayer for our audience today.
We don't always pray on the podcast, but I just really feel
(30:46):
that there'll be people listening in that really want to
go deeper and perhaps asking Godto show them the parts of
themselves, that language that you use that are perhaps
withholding from God and in doing so, inhibiting that depth
of relationship. Perhaps you can pray into that
for us. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
(31:13):
Lord, thank you so much for the air that we breathe, the air
that fills our lungs. Thank you for sustaining your
life today. We do ask you to help us.
(31:34):
You know us better than we know ourselves.
Will you bring the things insideof us to the surface, those
things that might be resisting you or your voice, or be afraid
or ashamed, whatever it might bein each of us?
Lord, you know the journey that you have us on, and we simply
(31:56):
say yes. We say yes.
Will you help us? To trust.
You more and more every day helpus to lean in to Your presence.
We lean in, Lord. Thank you.
(32:20):
Amen. Amen.
Thank you so much, Christine. Appreciate you all that you do
and your incredible leadership and just your heart.
If someone wanted to connect with you, perhaps a leader or
someone who's interested in spiritual direction or reframing
the prophetic, how would they find you?
(32:41):
We have two websites, one is reframing theprophetic.com and
reframing is like we said before, it's a book.
And of course and we have a discernment course on The Voice
of God. It's it has everything right
there and there is contact information if you want to reach
out to me there. And then the other one you
mentioned was the mesh objective.org.
(33:02):
It's MESH objective for mental, emotional and spiritual health
and we have contact information there as well.
So two different websites and you can find us there.
Beautiful. Thank you again for joining us
on God Conversations. Christine, it's been such a
blessing to have you. Thank you so much.
(33:25):
Thanks for listening to God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
Don't miss the next episode by subscribing to the show and your
favourite podcast app. And remember, the Holy Spirit
was given so we could all hear God's voice.
It was never meant to be a one way conversation.
God Conversations with Tanya Harris I.
Think it was mother. Teresa.
Someone asked her When does God speak?
To you. And she said whenever he wants.
How? Could I know if God was speaking
to me? And how could I know that that
was actually just me thinking? About I just had.
Some bad pizza. I just thought it was.
Normal to dream. And have experiences and she
said to me, I actually have a relationship with Jesus and he
(00:23):
talks to me and it just blew my mind.
And then hearing the Lord speak again very clearly.
And just saying. This, this is where I've called
you to love yourself. Jesus said we'd recognise his
voice. It was never meant to be a one
way conversation. Christine, it is so great to
(00:44):
have you at God Conversations today.
Welcome. Oh, it's such an honour to be
here. I love being a part of this
conversation. It's your favourite thing.
We have a lot in common, don't we?
And as you know, we met at the 24/7 International Prayer
Gathering last year in Rotterdamin the Netherlands.
(01:05):
Had a yeah, had a had a great coffee and compared notes.
I loved reading your book and sogreat to meet you.
We have so much in common. So great to meet you.
I have Pastor and your book on dreams to so many people, so I
have appreciated your work from afar.
That's wonderful, Christine, we are talking all things spiritual
(01:27):
direction. How do I hear God's voice and
what does that look like? How do I breakthrough some of
the obstacles? That it's the question that is
most commonly asked of people, You know, how do I hear God's
voice clearly? But before we get into that
topic, Christine, perhaps you can tell us a little bit about
yourself and how you got to be doing what you are doing now.
(01:49):
Well, I, I live in Tulsa, OK, I have two adult sons that are
both married to grand babies andmy wonderful marriage I'm
thankful for for 34 years. So those are the most important
bits. But how I'm doing what I'm doing
now, I honestly, you know, I sometimes feel like I, I never
(02:11):
could have guessed where God wasgoing to take me in my life.
We early on in our walk with theLord, we pastored a church at a
vineyard. We've been we've been elders and
leaders. I feel like we've done just
about everything inside of the local church.
We've ended up overseeing a lot of churches throughout the years
and stumbled into the 24/7 prayer movement about how 18 to
(02:33):
20 years ago somewhere in there.And they have been my global
tribe. And so everything that I'm doing
now has been out of relationship.
You know, it's where the Lord has I opened doors and the
spiritual direction bit just felt like a natural path for
both my husband and I because ofwell, we've just had a lot of
(02:55):
ups and downs. So, I mean, I think most of us
have, but the the longer you do this, this journey with the Lord
and you go into these deep places and you find all the
struggles, the spiritual direction conversation just gave
us the most room to be able to have those conversations in in
(03:15):
deeper context, if that makes sense.
So yeah, I could bore you with the rest of my story, but that's
about it. We've stumbled our way.
Through Haven't We All? I love that you've had that
strong connection with 24/7 Prayer.
We were just chatting about the beautiful nature of that
movement and how there's such a beautiful godly spirituality
(03:37):
and, you know, with such a breadth and the depth of the
global church. What a privilege to be a part of
that. And obviously prayer is a two
way conversation, both sides of the conversation.
And you've also been involved inleading the prophetic in
different churches as well. You have a kind of a side branch
reframing the prophetic. And I think perhaps seen of a
(03:59):
lot of what I've seen too in thechurch that there is some
reframing to do. There's a lot of reframing that
is necessary for sure when we, especially here in the States,
we have seen quite a lot of abuse in relationship to the
prophetic. I believe in the prophetic with
my whole heart. I see it biblically, I believe
(04:19):
in it theologically, and yet I don't feel like I've ever seen
it fully functioning the way that we see it demonstrated in
Scripture. So it's, it's one of my missions
is to continually open up that conversation within reframing
the prophetic. I have a book and then we've got
a full 14 week kind of a collegesemester course where it's open
(04:42):
conversation or on different like a biblical observation
course. It's it's fascinating.
So we don't claim to know a lot of facts, but we do have a
marvellous time wondering about the scripture together relating
to the prophetic. I'm trying to redeem some of the
misuses we've seen in the world today.
(05:04):
Yeah, I saw that in your book. You were picking up on some of
the things I had observed as well, particularly that
disconnect between the Spirit and Jesus.
And you know, you can get all these people operating in a
prophetic gifting, but their characters are so far from
Jesus, unfortunately, which is one of the the tragic issues, I
think. And so we come back to or what
(05:27):
is the spirit saying in an individual's life and perhaps
zoning in on the nature of what that looks like today based on
the revelation that we see in Scripture.
But before we get into perhaps spiritual direction in someone
else's life, what about you? We love to talk about stories at
God conversations. And so I'm going to ask you,
Christine, what's a favourite ora significant God conversation
(05:51):
story that you could share with us from your experience?
Oh my goodness, that's, that's abroad question.
I, you know, I would compare, I often compare my relationship
with Dodd to any other intimate relationship, whether it's a
(06:11):
spouse or a significant other, The most intimate relationship
in your life, the journey that you go on with that person to
grow more and more intimate is, is so complex, it's so nuanced.
It's so full and rich. And that's what it is like with
the Lord as well. And I was saying my most recent
(06:33):
journey with him wouldn't be onespecific man.
I could tell you the big prophetic stories, but those are
not the nor I like the more downto earth normal stories.
You know, I had a really difficult year a couple of years
ago where my grandson almost died and my son almost died 4
(06:53):
times. It was filled with a lot of
trauma. And this is just on the backside
of COVID. So there is, there's a lot,
obviously a lot going on in our country, a lot of challenges, a
lot of the church turning on itself.
And I was in quite a state of woundedness and turmoil.
(07:14):
And of course, I was seeking help.
I was going to a spiritual director myself.
I got into some therapy. But in these moments of crisis,
I knew, like, even though I had a good solid theology around
suffering, I, as I was experiencing that the terror of
losing a son and a grandson, that I shut my heart off.
(07:39):
I could feel me, my, my. Heart.
Just distancing myself from God and I felt powerless to do
anything about it. And but I could talk to him
about it. Like I know I'm doing this, you
know, it's almost like if if a close friend betrays you or if a
spouse lies to you, that that's what it felt like.
(08:01):
God didn't betray me, but it didn't change my emotional
experience where I felt betrayed.
And I understand why that's terrible theology.
I understand why that's simply not true.
But my emotions still felt it right no matter what my brain
understood about what is right theology.
(08:22):
What should my expectations be? Why and why am I reacting this
way in the middle of trauma? I just did and and I have done
that a couple of different timesin my life and then I've had to
take a journey of opening up my Verde again.
And that has been some of the the most challenging, the most
(08:44):
deeply intimate and gut wrenching, but also the most
beautiful times is going on thatjourney of healing in my
intimacy with thought, because it's it's not like I wanted
done. It's not like, oh, now I'm
intimate with God. I'm just going to be there
forever. No, this is a relationship.
It's, it moves in and out and upand down like life does, you
(09:06):
know, yes. Yes, and I think I think that
whole experience of shutting down when difficult times were
becoming distant from God is quite a human reaction to that.
We see in different ways. So how did you get through that,
Christine? Not well.
I would like I said was help from a spiritual director, help
(09:29):
from a therapist who's also a spiritual director, help from
friends. But honestly, it felt like bit
by bit, it felt little by littleas I walked out the last couple
of years in and chipping away atthe whether it was the lies that
(09:49):
I was believing or accusations that I had that a part of me had
made. I like the parts language.
Like it's not all of me. I mean, I could preach the
gospel to you all day long and tell you and mean it like I
wasn't lying to myself. But there was still a small part
of me that didn't know if I trusted God with my the deepest
(10:14):
core of my being. And that was a new feeling for
me. And it was important that I not
try to rush my way out of it, but that I I went deeper.
I could go into those deeper recesses of my heart and deeper
places where I knew him, even though I didn't like the current
(10:35):
feeling that I was experiencing.Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And here perhaps we see the
value of a spiritual director infollowing God in walking with
Jesus, because that's one of your roles now.
And having walked it at the receiving end, I'm sure that
helps and has equipped you to bethe spiritual director that you
(10:56):
are. So I, I want to take you into
that space a little bit. Imagine that I was coming along
and I said, Christine by my spiritual director, I can't hear
God's voice. I, you know, people talk about
this, but I'm, you know, it's not clear for me.
What would you do? How would you help me?
Yeah, I would begin with a lot of questions because everybody's
(11:20):
so unique. Everybody's different, you know,
but I would probably start with questions around vulnerability.
How? Because it's, it's vulnerable to
be loved, right, To let someone love you.
And if we, if we are on a journey, all of us are on a
(11:40):
journey of learning how to be loved, we love other people much
easier than we can allow ourselves to be loved.
And the and the love of God is acontinual revelation throughout
our life. So I would probably ask some
questions around that end. I might poke around and ask
about about shame, about self protection, those kinds of
(12:07):
tendencies that most humans battle with from time to time,
fear of rejection from God. There there's any number of
emotional reactions that we could have that might put up a
wall or a barrier that that tendto, you know, with one hand
we're pulling God towards us, with the other hand we're
(12:29):
pushing him away, right? And that that is quite common
within most of us. I like how you frame that,
Christine, because I think sometimes when we talk about
hearing God's voice, people can expect to hear something
mechanical. You know, how do I do this?
And well, you follow these threesteps and you confess this sin
and you pray this prayer and youspend this time.
(12:51):
I like how you frame it in termsof the relationship and the
ability to be vulnerable. I wonder, you know, most people,
I think when they sign up to hear God's voice, don't think,
oh, I need to learn to be vulnerable.
It's it's not, it's not what? Hang on, what do you mean?
What does that mean? It's.
(13:12):
True, we most often just want tolearn a spiritual skill, right?
But it I wish it simple, but it's not.
He not only wove us together, but He dwells in our innermost
being. I mean, this is a profoundly
intimate relationship and he is invasive in the way that he
(13:33):
pursues us, right? And so that's a complex journey.
And hearing him, let me just say, as I know that you often
talk about as well, isn't alwaysjust hearing a voice, right?
It's, it's sometimes might be, but sometimes it's more sensing
his nearness. It can be discerning his
(13:53):
presence and his hand in your back as he's pushing you
forward, or as the Holy Spirit is drawing you somewhere and and
whispering that the the essence of something, but you're not
quite hearing words. I mean, this is an embodied
communication with God. Yeah, right.
It's so true and I'm thinking too.
(14:15):
Jesus said those have ears to hear, will hear.
Seek me until you find me. Knock, ask.
And I do think what why? Why seek, ask and knock?
Why not automatically, you know,put your your money in the slot
and get your answer out? And I wonder, yeah, that process
of seeking and asking and knocking asking is an active
(14:38):
vulnerability, isn't it? Because it opens up our heart.
And I think maybe we can't downplay that as part of the
process of receiving what the spirit is saying is posturing
the heart. And actually, if I've got my my
arms crossed in front of me and I'm standing back as a sceptic
(15:01):
or a cynic hardening myself, then this is not the formula,
this is not the posture, this isnot what it's needed.
Perhaps this is where spiritual direction comes into play too,
because you're another person I can relate to where in the human
sense this is going to become obvious.
(15:22):
Very much so. And those things matter.
Like if you find yourself retreated back, we know with
your hands crossed and your heart closed and then you're mad
at God for not talking, or you're like, I, I can't hear
God's voice. And I don't know why it, it
helps to sit with somebody else to, to dig into those places a
(15:43):
bit rather than just try to pretend it's not there, right?
We don't want and like, yeah, myheart's closed right now or I
feel resistant. I don't want to ignore that
that's happening. I want to find out why.
We want to be able to learn how to listen to our resistance and,
and let it have its voice so that it can be heard and
(16:06):
hopefully healed rather than just shoved aside.
And as we try to learn a spiritual skill, you know it all
matters, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Yeah, I it's interesting. I've never had a spiritual
director formally, but I have had some very good friends who
are very good listeners. Yeah, actually my experience has
also been Christine. I wonder if this is connected,
(16:28):
that the times I've really pressed into hearing God are the
times when I have been in pain. And perhaps in our pain there is
a cracks open our vulnerability because if everything is going
on fine, you know, then I'm probably more likely to stand
back. But if I'm in pain, then my pain
will push me into that place of vulnerability where I'm hungry
(16:53):
and I'm seeking more of God. Have you found that with people?
Yeah, very much so. But in fact, sometimes we're, we
have a hard time hearing him because we're resisting going to
the place of pain inside of us. We're in denial of the pain, and
when we're in denial of those deep places inside of us, then
(17:13):
it will be harder to hear him because he, he's having one
conversation with us, but we're trying to have a different
conversation, you know? Yeah, that totally makes sense.
We're talking today with Christine Westhoff, the author
and developer of Reframing the Prophetic, all about the process
of hearing God's voice in the context, particularly of
(17:34):
spiritual direction. We'll be back in just a moment.
Welcome back to God conversation.
Such an honour to chat with a sister and like minded person
from across the planet. Christine, what a joy you are
This trained spiritual director and the president of the Mesh
objective. I like the sound of this.
(17:54):
A collectivist, psychologist, social workers, spiritual
directors and coaches working together to support mental,
emotional and spiritual health of leaders and missionaries
globally. I love that combination of
psychologists and social workersand coach.
Like, I love how it's so holistic.
And, you know, we're talking about hearing God's voice,
(18:15):
something which we think, oh, that happens on a Sunday in a
church service, but you're framing it in a much more
holistic relational sense. Is that a wise way to put it?
Very wise. I would completely agree with
that, yeah. So we've talked about a lack of
vulnerability as an obstacle. What other obstacles can stop us
(18:39):
from hearing the voice of God? I'm pausing because I am.
I sometimes don't think there isany obstacles because God's
bigger than any obstacles. We throw up, right?
I do think that we can put up resistance to God in many ways
(19:03):
and the ways that we resist him,even just a part of us, like I,
I mentioned the parts language, you know, there's a, there's a
part of me that is fully surrendered to God, but another
part of me has fear, a trepidation or another party.
Part of me might be a little scared of what he might tell me,
(19:24):
you know, so it depends on what's going on inside of us
that that might be causing some resistance to hearing him.
The reality is, is that we are hearing God is more natural for
us than eating food and drinkingwater.
It should be the most natural thing in the world that that we
would be in communion with our Creator.
(19:47):
But because of our fallen humanity, we've learned traits
that can be resistant to love, or we could hide be hiding it.
Parts of us can be hiding in shame, or we don't want to give
God access to parts of us that could be one of the ways that we
are resisting him. Or if we like we're, we're
(20:13):
afraid that he's going to ask usto give up what we don't want to
give up. Where I was, I had.
I had. That big I would never forget as
a 21 year old. I was terrified.
I'm like, what is God going to say?
He's going to ask me to do something I don't want to do.
Like I was like, Oh no, please, please God, don't send me out on
you know, some far from place and don't don't ask me to marry
(20:37):
someone I'm not attracted to. Like what if, what if I said God
speak to me? You know what's God going to
say? Yeah.
And I guess having those thoughts is probably a
reflection of my image of God ormy distorted image of God.
(20:59):
Yeah, of course. And we all have different levels
of distorted image of God. I mean, we've no one has seen
God in lived right. So we're all learning more and
more of who he is. But there's many things that
would cause us to maybe miss God's voice.
Sometimes it's just a simple learning how to listen.
(21:23):
How do we even listen to God? And the same way how we learn to
listen to another person. Can I?
Is my heart open to and receive from God through my senses,
through my dreams like you pointout in your dreams?
Am I or does He scare me or intimidate me or my control and
(21:44):
issue in my life? I mean our journey into His
voice is really individual and and deeply intimate.
It really is. I remember a young woman telling
me how she struggled to hear God's voice because she'd had a
really difficult relationship with her earthly father.
(22:05):
And she said it was when God started to change my image of a
father that I began to be able to hear clearly what God was
saying because I was filtering it through this distorted image.
I have what God is like. Well, well, yeah, that happens
quite often. Yeah, you would see that in your
(22:26):
work, I imagine. I often say to people, I think a
great starting point then is to let's have a look at what God is
like in Jesus. Let's just learn about Jesus.
Let's just, you know, plug ourselves in really deeply into
the things of what Jesus said and did.
And knowing that the Spirit sounds like Jesus, then I have
nothing to fear. Jesus said when you ask for
(22:48):
bread, God's not going to give you a stone.
That is exactly right, yeah. We had AI actually had a
testimony this week. I'd love to share this one with
you from a church in in our country in Canberra.
They had just gone through our 50 days of God conversations and
there was one woman there who God spoke to about loving her
father, forgiving her father. And she found that difficult to
(23:11):
do because the father was very performance oriented.
And she had this childhood experience where her father had
said if you do well at school, I'll give you a horse.
So of course she performs. She wanted a horse desperately
and she works really hard at hergrades and she comes out with a
high grade and then her father didn't give her a horse.
(23:31):
He tricked her, he used her and it's.
Horrible. Right.
And then so in the process of really focusing on hearing God's
voice in their church, she felt God say forgive your father for
that. And she did.
She went on this journey of forgiving her father and very
(23:52):
soon afterwards someone miraculously out of the blue
gave her a horse. Oh, you are kidding.
No. No, it's it's the best.
Profound testimony, Ever. But isn't that classic?
That is so beautiful, I love that so much.
(24:14):
That's classic Holy Spirit. So I just love it.
So some some things that perhapswe need to work through to
change those distortions of whatGod is like in order to hear his
voice clearly. But you also talk about in your
book about paying attention. Yes.
What does it mean to pay attention?
(24:35):
Yeah, you know, pay attention. I would say it's, it's learning
to become be more aware of what is going on inside of us and
become more aware of of God's presence and action within us
and through US and around us. We are surrounded by him.
(24:59):
The incarnation of Christ is so profound to me that he, he put
himself inside of frail humanity, frail, broken
humanity, forever redeeming our,our life and every day of our
journey. He walked in our footsteps.
It's just amazing. And so to to shift and be able
(25:22):
to see the, the whole world as aburning Bush, so to speak, that
he is everywhere revealing himself everywhere.
The time he reveals himself and the Holy Spirit does his job
very well and revealing the person of Christ.
And and as we know, the person of Christ is the meeting place
(25:42):
between heaven and earth. And so when Christ as the
meeting place between heaven andearth, as the temple blind
inside of human flesh, the question, is it possible that
human flesh is the divine meeting place with God like this
is our meeting place with God? And so in paying attention, it's
(26:06):
first knowing and trusting that he is already moving, He's
already communicating. We are living in communion with
Him as his created ones, as as the dwelling place of his Spirit
on the earth. It's amazing to me.
And if we can grow in our awareness of that, of Him, as
(26:30):
well as our awareness of ourselves, we will be able to
begin to sort out like, Oh yeah,this is my emotional trigger,
but this is what God is actuallysaying, or this is my
resistance. I can tell I'm trying to push
God away a bit right now, but I'm not going to do that, Lord.
I'm going to open up my heart and let you in.
(26:50):
It's that growing in our abilityto listen to our own interior
landscape as well as listening to the presence and action of
God, not just for his words. Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely. Being aware that God could
reveal God's self any time. Everything that every part of
(27:11):
our lives is, is part of God's world.
So I love that. What does that look like
practically? So I wake up in the morning.
How do I how do I love what you said, but if I am one of your
clients, how do I actually enactthat?
(27:32):
We I have some exercises that I I like to lead people through
just in a quiet, prayerful spaceso they can begin their days
with. One of them is just an awareness
of spending some time paying attention to your thoughts,
what's going on in your head. Maybe jot down like these are
the pervasive thoughts of my mind today and I give those over
(27:55):
to the Lord. These are my invasive emotions
that are rolling around inside of me.
And then and then trying to dropinto some deeper places with the
Lord, to just listen and be withhim.
Not necessarily listen for specific words, but to open up
our heart to be with Him and to be aware of Him.
(28:17):
And so every morning I'm asking for Him to help me because I'm
not always aware of Him. I can get so distracted
throughout my day, right? I'm so distracted by whatever is
going on around me, and most of us are.
I can turn my attention as oftenas possible throughout the day.
Back to the fact that He is withme.
(28:38):
He is Emmanuel, He is here and Ican simply be with Him just like
if my husband was in the room with me, even if we weren't
talking, we would still be with each other.
There's a an awareness that we can grow in that that I think is
life changing when we so. I do want to hear his voice,
(29:00):
don't get me wrong, but the witness of God feels even more
important. Yeah, that's his.
Yeah, that's the starting point,isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah, isn't it?
I think sometimes when we talk about hearing God's voice, we
expect that to be identifiable, this moment when God spoke.
And that is true and important. But in actual fact, there's much
(29:23):
a much bigger picture, isn't there?
Relationship with someone is notjust one little conversation at
a particular moment, it's a witness, as you say.
I love that. I was even perhaps thinking
particularly with your connection with 24/7 prayer.
One of the things that they havereleased is the Lectio 365 app,
which has a morning prayer and evening prayer, and I think
(29:44):
we're working towards a midday one.
Perhaps that's something too, asa tool to help us keep
connecting with God, just helping those that distractive
tendency that we have, that busyness that we have just to
keep clocking in at points during the day, to maintain that
openness to God throughout the day.
(30:04):
Yeah, absolutely. I love the morning, midday and
evening, those touch points, those and Lectio 365 is just
brilliant. It's deep and beautiful and
that's that, that's a tool that helps to lead us into that place
with God. I just, I love it.
And every time of day rhythm as well.
(30:24):
It's it's just beautiful. I love that Christine, it's been
such a blessing to have you herewith your incredible wisdom and
insight. I feel like I've had my own
spiritual direction session. I hope that everyone else has
felt that. I wonder, I wonder if you could
just bring your wisdom to a prayer for our audience today.
We don't always pray on the podcast, but I just really feel
(30:46):
that there'll be people listening in that really want to
go deeper and perhaps asking Godto show them the parts of
themselves, that language that you use that are perhaps
withholding from God and in doing so, inhibiting that depth
of relationship. Perhaps you can pray into that
for us. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
(31:13):
Lord, thank you so much for the air that we breathe, the air
that fills our lungs. Thank you for sustaining your
life today. We do ask you to help us.
(31:34):
You know us better than we know ourselves.
Will you bring the things insideof us to the surface, those
things that might be resisting you or your voice, or be afraid
or ashamed, whatever it might bein each of us?
Lord, you know the journey that you have us on, and we simply
(31:56):
say yes. We say yes.
Will you help us? To trust.
You more and more every day helpus to lean in to Your presence.
We lean in, Lord. Thank you.
(32:20):
Amen. Amen.
Thank you so much, Christine. Appreciate you all that you do
and your incredible leadership and just your heart.
If someone wanted to connect with you, perhaps a leader or
someone who's interested in spiritual direction or reframing
the prophetic, how would they find you?
(32:41):
We have two websites, one is reframing theprophetic.com and
reframing is like we said before, it's a book.
And of course and we have a discernment course on The Voice
of God. It's it has everything right
there and there is contact information if you want to reach
out to me there. And then the other one you
mentioned was the mesh objective.org.
(33:02):
It's MESH objective for mental, emotional and spiritual health
and we have contact information there as well.
So two different websites and you can find us there.
Beautiful. Thank you again for joining us
on God Conversations. Christine, it's been such a
blessing to have you. Thank you so much.
(33:25):
Thanks for listening to God Conversations with Tanya Harris.
Don't miss the next episode by subscribing to the show and your
favourite podcast app. And remember, the Holy Spirit
was given so we could all hear God's voice.
It was never meant to be a one way conversation.
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