A Sitcom Like "Alice" (1976-1985)

Episode Transcript
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Clips from Alice (00:00):
Sorry to keep you waiting, henry.
No problem, who's in a hurry toeat Mel's cooking?
I can't figure it out.
It opened for over two hoursnow and we've only had one
customer.
Don't worry, there's probably agood reason.
Food is the same as it's alwaysbeen.
That's a good reason.

(00:21):
Frankly, Alice, I could show youa thing or two about raising a
son.
Oh, you could huh.
Gee Mel.
I could show you a thing or twoabout raising a son.
.
Oh, you could huh, gee Mel, Iwish you were my mother.
Nothing personal, Mom, butthat's the way you really feel,
isn't it?
Well, it's either you or thedirt bike.
One of you has got to go.
Last night I just startedhaving this feeling for Mel and

(00:45):
uh, well it.
At first, you know, I thought Imight have low blood sugar.
You know, they say that canaffect the mind.
Hello, yeah, how do youdiscourage a man from making

(01:07):
physical advances to you?
I don't Kiss my grits.

Tony Maietta (01:19):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve (01:22):
And I'm Brad Shreve , who's just a guy who likes
movies.

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.

And, of course, being the average guy, my
opinions are the ones thatmatter.

As does your self-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood, ugh.

What?
What's the matter?

Ugh that beginning .
I'm so bored with it.

Beginning.

Yeah, you know, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da
Ugh, it's boring.
Oh, I don't know about that.
I mean, okay, look, all right,you know it.
All right, it was fine.
It was fine for our firstseason.
But you know, brad, we're intoour second season now.
Don't you think maybe we couldrefresh it, maybe jazz it up a
little bit?

I don't know about that.
What do you mean?
Jazz it up?

Well, you know, maybe a little jazz, a little
scat, a little like dun A littlejazz, a little scat, a little
like you know, I'm not sureabout that, tony.
Oh, come on Just a little bit.
We could just have a little Do,do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do,

(02:41):
do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do,do, do, do, do, do do, and then
we can end it with a boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
What do you think?

It rings a bell.
I think I may have heard thatsong before.

Yes, yes, you have , yes, indeed, yes, yes, you
have, yes, indeed.
Welcome to our Mother's May TVepisode.
And you have heard that songbefore, because it's one of the
most iconic theme songs, I think, in TV history the theme from
Alice, also known as New Girl inTown, by Marilyn and Alan

(03:22):
Bergman and David Shire.

And you're implying we should change our theme song
every season.

Well, Linda Lavin did.
She didn't.
Okay, linda Lavin allegedlyrecorded a new version of the
theme song every single year,almost every single year, but it
is.
I mean, it's like Mary TylerMoore's, which, ironically, you
know.
You know it the minute you hearit.
There are two differentversions amongst all the

(03:50):
versions of the Alice theme song, like Mary Tyler Moore, you
know, for first season, and thenit changed after that.

Well, the first season was the one that made you
want to slit your wrist.

Did you think Early to rest?

No, no, no, Early to rest.
No, no, no, early to rest.
I mean, it's just, she soundsso depressed that she's stuck
there in a diner.

Well, no, she's getting out to her new life and
I promised myself, Brad, that Iwasn't going to sing the theme
song.
I was just going to allowmyself to scat it because we
don't want to, we don't want toawaken the internet spiders, but
I did want to tell yousomething very funny.
Do you know who Mo Rocca is?

Mo Rocca, mo Rocca.
No, I love the name.

He's on the CBS Sunday morning show Okay, and he
interviewed Linda Lavin in 2020.
And God bless him.
I think he did what every gayman of a certain age wants to do
.
And he asked Linda Lavin of thetwo theme songs, which ending
she preferred?
Did she prefer boom boom, boom,boom boom or did she prefer

(05:00):
excuse my falsetto sweet, excusemy falsetto Sweet?
And she said Actually, that wasnot a falsetto.
And she said she preferredFirst of all.
She said she'd never been askedthat before and I'm like really
.
And she said she preferred Boom, boom, boom, boom boom.
I agree, oh my God, it's inagain, the fabric of my

(05:26):
childhood.
I'm so excited to be talkingabout alice today for our
mother's day episode.
You know, bro, what are your,what are your memories of this
show of alice?

um, you know, I I remember watching it and I'm
gonna be honest, I remember Iwatched it probably every week
until the later seasons, I think, like the rest of the world,
and I remember thinking thisisn't so great, but I liked it.
You know, I watched it anyway.
I thought it was kind of a 70sthing, I think so, and I was
always wanting to spend moretime at alice's home oh, really,

(05:59):
not the diner, not the dinner.
No, when they had more storiesat the home, I liked it.
I think it's because I wantedto see a little more of her life
.

There was a time in there where they were going
to eliminate the home storiescompletely when the Stroh was
having some issues its firstyear.
But we'll get into that.
We'll get into that and thatdoesn't surprise me.
This show for me it's a hugechunk of my childhood because I
was thinking about it.
The show premiered in 1976.
And the character of Tommy,alice's son, is 10 and a half,

(06:34):
so he's just a little bit olderthan I was.
So basically, I wasexperiencing the same kind of
adolescent spurts, adolescentangst, that the character of
Tommy was during this.
So that's really interesting tothink about that and what I
remember is it just seems a partof my life and in fact, in that
same Mo Rocca interview heasked her about that and I want

(06:59):
to play something for you.
I actually have something thatI want to play.
This is Linda Lavin talkingabout the show Alice in 2020.

Linda Lavin Clip (07:09):
Latchkey kids that came home from school they
watched it in the afternoon onreruns and that Alice was the
mother they wished they'd had.
And I I hear this and I think,wow it that never occurred to me

(07:34):
that that she was such a goodmother that she was.
She was attractive to youngpeople in that way because she
listened.
I mean, it occurred to me thatwe were doing the right thing by
approaching her as somebody whowas trying to be a good mother.

So that's isn't that interesting.
The people up till 20, this was2020.
People were going up to her andsaying what an effect Alice had
on their lives, which I thinkis kind of amazing.

You know what I mean.
That is amazing.
I'm sure it's much morerewarding than just saying oh,
we love your show.
Can I have your autograph?

No people talk to her about what it meant to them
and so, anyway, so I got to dothis.
So I did that.
I knew Linda Lavin.
I met Linda Lavin I guess inthe early 2010s through my
friend, jim Caruso.
He was very good friends withher and I was lucky enough to
spend some time with her a fewtimes and talk with her, and I

(08:34):
told her that was one of thethings I said to her.
I said I loved your show as akid.
Your show was like my greatbabysitter and she really liked
it and she really was sweet andappreciative about that.
And I think I want to point outtoo that I wasn't the only one
who did that.
One of the reasons we did this,I wanted to do this show for our
Mother's Day episode is because, sadly, we lost Linda Lavin in

(08:56):
December of December 2024.
And you know what?
She was still working.
She died with her boots on, asthey say.
She was working on the TV showMid-Century Modern with Nathan
Lane and friend of the pod, mattBomer, and Matt said that he
was grateful that he was able toexpress his thanks to Linda for

(09:17):
Alice as well.
So I think a lot of people feltthat way about her.
She felt like maybe not yourmother, but she felt like a
surrogate mother.
She was a surrogate mother andthat's why I think it's kind of
nice to talk about her for thisMother's May celebration.

Her and her relationship with Tommy felt
real.

Yes, it did.
It felt like a real mother-sonright, yes.
Yeah, you know, and it'sinteresting, it felt like a real
mother-son, right.
Yes, yeah, you know, and it'sinteresting.
We kind of made we talked abouthow Alice touched so many
people and later in thatinterview Mo Rocca asked her how
Alice affected her and she saidthat the role of Alice I mean
she was an actress, she was aworking actress, she didn't have

(10:00):
any kids, she never worked in adiner, you know.
But she said that the role ofAlice really woke her up to the
inequities of women in theworkforce.
Because when you think, if youreally think about it, alice
Hyatt was really kind of a bluecollar or pink collar version of
Mary Richards.
She was a single working person.

(10:21):
Oh, totally.
And so Lavin said that thisrole really politicized her.
She became very politicizedover equal rights.
She stumped for the ERA, forequal pay, for equal work, and
she was actually invited by theNational Commission on Working
Women to speak in Washington DCabout equal pay and she said she

(10:42):
was very nervous and the onlyway she could do it was to do it
as Alice Hyatt.
So she did and she wore herAlice uniform when she gave the
speech and later on.
You know that uniform wasdonated to the Smithsonian.
So, I mean, when you thinkabout that, that's pretty
amazing.

That's pretty amazing.
That really is amazing.
I knew nothing of that storywhatsoever.

Yeah, she was an amazing woman.
Like I said, I wanted to dothis because she passed, but
also because she touched my lifein so many ways, even before I
knew her, and she was such atruly unique and gifted actress.
And I think people don'tnecessarily realize that about
her because Alice is so famousand she had a very, very unique

(11:32):
gift as an actress.
I saw her on stage when I wasin college in her Tony Award
winning role on Broadway Bound,which was nothing like Alice
Hyatt nothing and she totallychanged the way I thought about
acting.
She was so wonderful and I wasso grateful that I was able to
express that to her in herlifetime and how much she
affected me.

(11:52):
Yeah, her talent was deep andunpredictable and not at all as
a person.
She was not at all what youwould expect her to be as Alice
Hyatt.

Yeah, and I don't mean this as a diss on the show,
but when I was watching it Ithought she is really too
talented for this.

I know it was a regular paycheck.

Who could blame her ?
But I'm like she really shouldbe doing more than this.

Well, you know, it's funny, that show.
I mean, when I went back towatch the shows again I was like
, oh, this is a lot worse than Iremember this being a wonderful
show.
And I was watching particularlythe pilot, and I was like, oh,
this is bad.

Well, the pilot's terrible, but you kind of like
that slight.
Except I was like how did thissell?

Well, that's it.
I'm thinking they bought this.
I mean think about it, though.
The Mary Tyler Moore Show pilotwas a brilliant TV episode.

Oh it was awesome.
Yeah, it was one of the bestpilots ever Brilliant.

One of the best pilots ever.
You look at Alice and you'relike what?
But then here's the key and Iwant to talk about this in the
history of the series is thatthe later episodes episodes, I'd
say, probably after the thirdseason are really fun and really
good.
So that's what I did.
I went back and I watched thefuture ones.
I was like, oh, this is theshow I remember, this is the

(13:09):
show I remember that I loved andI laughed at.
So we'll talk about that.

But I do just want to give a little bit more
background about Linda Lavin, ifI may Do want to throw one
thing in here we're not going totalk about deeply until towards
the end, sure, but my husband,maurice, his father, was in the
military and during most of thistime period he was in Spain, so
he never saw most of thesesitcoms from that era.

(13:34):
So, yeah, the one show that heremembers most is Los Angeles de
Charlie, charlie's Angels.

How would you translate Alisa Alisa.

Alisa, so this was his first time watching, so
we'll talk about his reaction.

Oh, I want to hear that reaction Very different
perspective than what you and Ihave.
It depends on what season youwatch but anyway, like I said
she was, lavin was.
Her talent was rich and deep andI think you're probably right,
it probably was too rich anddeep for a sitcom.
But she also brought thosegifts to the show and I think it
helped make the show, as theseries went on, richer and

(14:11):
deeper and more substantial.
She moved to New York City.
She worked on Broadway.
She did some great shows onBroadway.
She was in a show called it's aBurn, it's a Plane, it's
Superman, in which she singsthis wonderful song called
You've Got Possibilities.
And then in the early 80s shemoved to Los Angeles with her

(14:35):
husband.
She was married to actor RonRifkin at the time.
She moved to LA and she beganto work on TV and before Alice,
her most prominent role was onBarney Miller.
Did you ever see her on BarneyMiller?

No, I don't, and I really liked Barney Miller,
except like all the 70s shows.
Why do they have one jail?
Yeah well, it's a small prison,you forgive those back then,
but I loved Barney Miller and Idon't remember her at all.

She had a small reoccurring role in Barney
Miller as Detective JaniceWentworth.
But you know, my very favoritepre-Alice role of hers was a
guest shot on Rhoda.
Now, did you ever see that?

I can't believe we did Rhoda and I don't remember
that at all because I did.
I run through the whole series,I did watch the whole series
and I don't remember her.

We touched on this episode.
It's a very funny episode.
It's Rhoda's bridal shower andshe plays this high school
nemesis of Rhoda's and she is sofunny.
If you haven't watched it,watch it.

I remember that episode.
I don't remember that was her.

That's how good she was.
She's so funny because she'snothing like Alice.
I mean she is a real bitch toValerie Harper in this, but
she's funny.
She's so funny.
And that's the thing aboutLinda Lavin is that this talent
was so multifaceted.
I mean she sang, she danced,she played Mama Rose in Gypsy.

(16:00):
For Christ's sake in the 90s,this woman could do anything.
So to limit her to this box ofoh air quotes sitcom actress is
really kind of a myth I'm tryingto dispel here.
And you know the show Alice.
When she was eventually offeredthe show Alice she was a little
hesitant, but she also knewthat this was probably the next.
It would certainly the nextstep forward in her career.

(16:20):
But before we go any further, Ijust want to say we need to lay
some ground rules, because thisshow was on for nine seasons.
Okay.
And this podcast has thepotential of being just as long,
so let's just say this rightnow we are not going to talk
about the film Alice Doesn'tLive here Anymore that this show

(16:40):
is based on.
It's a wonderful film.
Ellen Burstyn won an Oscar forBest Actress.
Please watch it.
Maybe we'll talk about itsometime, but we'll only talk
about Alice Doesn't Live hereAnymore as it pertains to this
TV show.
Right?
Does that seem fair to you?

That seems fair to me.
Okay, great, and it's been along time since I saw that movie
, anyway.
Yeah, what I will say Iremember most and I'm sure we'll
get into it more later is itwas like the transition from
Mary Tyler Moore to Lou Grant.

In reverse.

Yeah, this was reverse, even though it wasn't
really necessarily a spinoff.
The movie was very dark attimes.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

This was a sitcom.
It's really odd to me thatsomebody said let's make a
sitcom out of that movie.
Yes, yes, so yes, yes.

So, yeah, well, what happened?
Well, the guy who said that wasproducer David Suskind.
He was a TV producer and he wasalso a talk show host, and he
hired Robert Getchell to adaptthe movie into a sitcom and they
made some changes in it.
Instead of her wanting toreturn to Monterey, as she does
in the film, she heads toHollywood with Tommy to work as

(17:49):
a singer.
In the TV show, her car breaksdown in Phoenix.
In the movie it's Tucson, and alack of money and the car
trouble forces her to set uplife in Phoenix and get a job
waitressing at Mel's Diner.
In the TV show and in the filmit's Mel and Ruby's Cafe, and
Mel is married and they're bothplayed by Vic Tabak.

Wasn't he a widower in the movie and he kept his
wife's name on the diner, Ithink?
Oh, anyway, we're not going togo into depth in that.
Yeah, I think you're rightthough.
Yeah, you're right, you'reright.
Yeah, he was a widower.

He was a widower.
I apologize about that.
So many notes.
So Susskind's producer, bruceJohnson, reached out to Alan
Burstyn about reprising her roleand she's like no thanks, I won
an Oscar, I'm moving on, I'mnot going to do TV.
And, as I said, lavin was alittle hesitant but she found
the concept really engaging,especially the idea of
sisterhood.

(18:40):
She loved the way thesewaitresses bonded together.
She saw Alice and she saw Floand she saw Vera as survivors.
So this relationship was areally important part of the
success of the show, I think,and the characters and the
actresses who were cast.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about some of those
actresses who were cast in thisTV show?

Yeah, we have Linda Lavin, of course, as Ellis
Hyatt, and yes, she wasdefinitely the star, without a
doubt, but it was somewhat of anensemble show as well.
The other characters didn't gettheir primary focus of the show
that often, but they did attimes and they certainly were
involved enough.
They were almost every scene.
So after Linda Lavin we had VicTabak, very talented actor who

(19:24):
has been in I don't know howmany shows and movies he played
Mal Sharples.
Philip McKeon played Tommyafter the pilot, and I want to
find out from you why.
Beth Holland played Vera.
Polly Holliday was FlorenceJean Castleberry and she ran for
the first four seasons untilthey spun her off to an ungodly

(19:45):
terrible series.
Then we had Diane Ladd as BelleDupree for seasons four and
five and she didn't stay aroundtoo long, and then we ended the
last three seasons with CeliaWeston as Jolene Honeycutt.

Right Celia.

Weston as Jolene Honeycutt, and, I have to add,
you had a rotating group ofcharacters, both family members
and regulars at the restaurantthat you'll recognize, pretty
well known, and I'm just goingto toss out a few of them Marvin
Kaplan, who he's been ineverything and anything.
Henry, henry, he was Henry.
Was he the one that ran thegarage in?

uh, it's a mad, mad, mad world yes, he was good
eye, brad good eye.

It dawned on me like the last episode that we
watched of this, it's thoseglasses.
It's those glasses.
And then Dave Madden, who Ididn't really like on this show,
but I liked him a lot as ReubenKincaid.

Oh yeah.

Partridge Family, but Partridge Family is one of
my favorites from childhood.
We had Martha Ray who playedMel's mother.
Yes, she came and went, dorisRoberts, and you went Doris
Roberts, and you would knowDoris Roberts by face, first of
all, she's most known forplaying Raymond's mother on.

Everybody Loves Raymond.
She's Marie Barone, for God'ssake, yes.

She is just wonderful.
Just love her to death.

She played Alice's mother.
Yes, alice's mother.

On Alice, yes, yes yes, and then we had Robert
Picardo.
He was he's most known forbeing Star Trek Voyager.
He was the doctor, and thoseare the ones I think most people
would know, at least by face.

Yeah, that pretty much rounds out the cast.
I think that's good.
Yeah, yeah, so yes, vic Tabakreprises role as Mel.
Now they originally went toDiane Ladd, who later played
Belle Dupree in the show.
But what's her previousconnection to Alice Brad?
She played Flo in the movie.

(21:44):
She was the original Flo in.
Alice Doesn't Live here Anymore, but when they came time to do
the TV show she was undercontract to NBC and Alice is a
CBS show, so she couldn't do it.
So they looked around and theycame across this wonderful
theater actress named PollyHoliday.
Now we've talked about PollyHoliday briefly in our Tootsie

(22:07):
episode.
Why is that Brad?
uh, because they oh, I can'tremember.
She was good friends withDustin Hoffman.
She appeared in All thePresident's Men with him and she
helped him with his Southerndialect for Dorothy Michaels in
Tootsie Remember.

That's right.
Yes, you did, okay.
Yes.

And they did it for Meryl Streep.

I got to throw something out there because a
lot of people would probablyremember her best as the nasty
old woman in Gremlins where theone that flew out the window
when her elevated chair wentflying up in the sky.

So funny Polly Holliday because of the fact
that she looks nothing like Flo.
I mean that's obviously a wig.
Yeah, she is from Alabama, soshe does have an Alabama accent,
but it's nowhere near as deepas Florence Jean Castleberry's.
So people really don't.
They're watching Polly Holidayand they don't realize that's

(23:07):
Polly Holiday who played Flo,because she just doesn't look
the same, she doesn't appear thesame.
She was in an episode of GoldenGirls and she plays Rose's
sister and she's nothing likeFlo.
I mean, she was a wonderfulactress.
She is a wonderful actress.
She's the last survivingoriginal cast member.
She's still alive.
She's still with us, god blessher.
She was offered the part.
She thought about the time sheworked as a waitress at Howard

(23:28):
Johnson's in New York City andshe's like I've done this before
.
So she punched up that Alabamaaccent, threw that wig on and
Florence Jean Castleberry wasborn.
And, as you said, yes, bethHowland played Vera.
Beth Howland was a stageactress mostly known before this
for singing the very fastpatter song Not Getting Married

(23:49):
in the Sondheim Musical Company.
And you did mention AlfredLutter reprising his role as
Tommy in the pilot.
Only After the pilot was shot,the executives knew this is
going to have some problems andone of the things they didn't
like was they thought AlfredLutter wasn't right for the part

(24:12):
.
They thought he was too old forTommy.
So they found this child actornamed Philip McKeon from New
York and he got the part and wegot an entire acting family when
he said yes, because they allmoved to California and his
sister, nancy, came with him andif you know TV from the 80s,
you know who Nancy McKeon isfrom Facts of Life.

(24:34):
You take the good, you take whonancy mckeon is from facts of
life.

You take the good, you take the bad, exactly,
exactly.

Facts of life exactly so I think.
Uh, what I want to point out isis that.
So they started filming andthat first season was very
problematic.
They brought in five differentproducers that first season
because they just couldn't get ahandle on the show.
They knew there was somethingthere, but they just couldn't
figure out what it was.
They had this handful of very,very talented actors, most of

(25:00):
which are from the theater, sothey knew they had chops, they
knew what they were doing butthey could not make it work and
so they had five differentproducers that first year.
Just to give a littlebackground.
I'm not going to go too muchinto this, but in the 70s I
think it's pretty safe to saythat there were two basic styles
of three-camera sitcoms.
There was the Mary Tyler Moorestyle, which harks back to I

(25:23):
Love Lucy.
It was filmed before a liveaudience with three cameras.
There was music on the play-insat the beginning of the episode
and the play-outs, and it justhad a very rich look for a
sitcom.
Then there was the other sideof that was the Norman Lear
style, which was shot onvideotape.
There's no music to play in orplay out or soften it.

(25:45):
It has a very gritty look moreof a realistic feel, you know.
And the Norman Lear style alsoincorporates a lot of close-ups,
particularly extreme close-ups,to punctuate points of drama.
So that's another differencethere.
So videotape looks moreimmediate, it's like it's more

(26:05):
real, and film has more of afantasy layer, if you want, to a
storytelling layer.
So those are these two styles.
Now, alice wasn't filmed, alicewas shot on videotape.
However, the first season ofAlice is very much in the Norman
Lear style.
You know, the pilot wasactually directed by Paul Bogart
, who directed many episodes ofAll in the Family.

(26:25):
There's no music to bring youinto the episode, there's no
music bringing you out.
You know, there's a lot ofclose-ups to punctuate the drama
.
And there's actually a lot ofdrama in these first season
episodes.
There's actually an episode inthe first season called Good
Night, sweet Vera, in which Veratries to commit suicide.
Now, you would never seesomething like that in a later

(26:49):
episode.
No, the episodes are prettygood the first season, but CBS
just was not happy with it.
You know, they just could notfigure out why this won't work.
So and this is going somewhereI swear On the Warner Brothers
lot where Alice shot about thesame time they were filming the
first season, lucille Ball wasfilming a TV special, and who

(27:11):
was on the set of her TV special?
But her two mainstay writersfrom way back since radio, bob
Carroll Jr and Madeline Davis.
So the EPs of Alice contactedCarolyn Davis and asked them to
come on as producers of AliceNow.
So what did they do?
Well, they brought in that samestyle that began with Lucy.

(27:35):
They didn't start filming it itwas still being videotaped but
they brought with them thatwhole idea of the music playing
in the music playing out lessclose-ups.
They spiffed up the diner so itdidn't look so gritty and, most
important of all, they broughtin many of their old I Love Lucy
cronies.
So think about this this is 25years after I Love Lucy.

(27:59):
And they brought in Mark Danielswho directed much of the first
season of I Love Lucy.
He was the primary director onAlice.
William Asher was there too.
Liz Montgomery's ex-husbandcame in and directed some.
He directed Job Switching, theCandy Factory episode of I Love
Lucy.
They brought in Arthur Marks,son of Groucho Marks, and he
wrote episodes along with RobertFisher and Linda Morris, and

(28:23):
Davis and Carroll reviewed everyaspect of the series and they
served for ways to make itstronger and they went right to
the characters.
They thought the characterswere the show's heart and what
they did was.
They talked with each actorabout their characters and what
they liked and what they didn't.
And Vic Tabak was upset becausehe thought Mel had no depth.

(28:44):
He thought Mel was just tough.
He wanted Mel to have moredepth, be more vulnerable, more
caring, and you see that.
But probably the biggest changewas in the character of Vera.
In the pilot which we're goingto talk about in a bit.
Vera is pretty much a nothing.
There is nothing to thischaracter, don't you think so?

Do you want my real response?

Absolutely

.
I feel like Vera was a nothingthrough the entire series.
No, her only purpose was tothrow out one one liners that I
felt fell flat almost every timewell, the studio audience did
not agree with you because Iknow they did.

I just watched an episode from they were going to
talk about and vera's linesalmost got applause.
Every time it's very funny.
Um, well, here.
Okay, here's the thing.
Howland said that she found thecharacter of Vera as originally
written to be clumsy andunintelligent, and she said it
made her feel bad.
So I think what they did wasthey made Vera a little more as
opposed to stupid, they made herditzy.

(29:45):
But they also made her a littlebit like Georgette that she was
ditzy but she also had greatinsight.
Great insight.
They made her very vulnerable,very kooky, very Gracie
Allen-like, and I believe thatthe later episodes of the show
are like that.
She's so one-dimensional andthey wanted to give her
qualities of Gracie Allen, ofEdith Bunker, I mean even of

(30:08):
Stan Laurel you can kind of seethat and her self-confidence in
the character grew.
So obviously you don't agreewith that assessment, but that's
what they were going for whenthey revamped the, the character
of vera well, I'm glad theydidn't do the vera that was in
the movie, which she needed tobe put in a mental hospital
because she was so insecure andso depressed she was.

(30:31):
She was a.
She was a difficult characterwatch.
Yeah, to me this character inthe series difficult character
to watch.
To me, this character in theseries is difficult to watch
because, as I said, I saw verylittle depth in her.
I would have loved to seen herbe more of a Georgette or Edith
Bunker and I just saw her as aclown through the entire series.
Except for a few episodes, Inever saw much beyond that.

(30:52):
I remember that distinctly.
When I watched the series as aregular, I kept saying I wish
they'd do more with Vera.
She communicated that Vera wasnot.

(31:12):
I don't feel like Vera in theTV show was the loser after the
first season.
I feel like she was.
She certainly got moreattractive, you know, from that
first season.
I mean she looked a hell of alot prettier.
Remember there's an episodewhere Tommy actually falls in
love with her.
Now, Tommy would have neverfallen in love with season one
Vera.
So I think her attractiveness,her kindness, her love of

(31:32):
animals certainly played in theshow.
Yeah, she was ditzy, but shewasn't dumb.
She wasn't the butt of the joke, unless it was Mel, and then
she could zing him right backagain.
So I see what you're saying,but I feel like there's more to
mention to Vera.
So what we're going to do, theformat of this, is we're going

(31:54):
to talk about four episodesright, Three episodes in the
pilot.
We've already talked a littlebit about the pilot, but I do
have a couple more things I wantto say about the pilot.
So in case you watch it, you'reforewarned it has no
resemblance to the rest of theseries.

It's like a different show If you want to
see Beth Holland as scary asshe's ever been wow, yeah, I
mean, that is a scary.

How can any actress play that role?
I mean, god bless her.
No wonder she was pissed offabout it.
But I think the thing toremember is it's like you know,
these are the people, peoplehelming this show, are the
people that helmed I Love Lucy.
Okay, they even brought DesiArnaz in as a guest star for one
episode.
He made one of his very, veryrare guest appearances and I

(32:41):
wanted to use it today, but Iwatched the episode and it's
just no good.
So I was like, no, I'm notgoing to do that.

He wasn't the only one.
They actually I can't rememberoff the top of my head because I
didn't write them down, butthere was a whole slew of big
stars that oh my God, more starswalked into Mel's Diner than
walked into Lucy's Bank in theLucy show.

Art Carney Telly Savalas, debbie Reynolds Debbie
was there.
Florence Henderson.
It's just yeah it was like isthis Mel's Diner in Phoenix or
Mel's Diner in Brentwood?
I mean, I'm not really surewhich Mel's.

Diner this is.

This is their branch in Phoenix.

It was along the highway.
I guess they all broke down.
It was Well, they were on the10.
They were on the 10 on theirway to LA, so they did that.

So the first episode, the pilot, is called
Pilot.

Yeah, I thought that was funny it is.

Do you want to give us the stats on the pilot,
Brad?

I only know that it came out August 31st of 1976.
And I do want to say one thingabout this I think of this show
as a 70s show.
That's what I think of it as.
This was just as much in the80s as it was the 70s, which
really surprised me when Ilooked at the dates.
But the premiere was August31st 1976.
And I can't wait to talk aboutthis episode because it was much

(33:59):
different, including thehorrible opening.

Yeah, it's kind of funny.
It straddles the 70s and 80s,just like I did.
So, yes, so the pilot waswritten by Robert Goetschel and
directed by Paul Bogart, as Isaid, and Robert Goetzel wrote
the screenplay to Alice Doesn'tLive here Anymore.
So you kind of get a reason,you kind of get the

(34:25):
understanding why maybe thisepisode is so different than all
the other ones, because itwasn't Groucho Marx's son
writing this episode.
It was the guy who wrote thatvery, very serious drama.
Alice Doesn't Live here hereanymore.
I can give you the synopses ofthe pilot in two sentences Alice
agrees to go out on the datewith a diner patron after he
mentions he's an agent.
All goes well until sherealizes he's actually a hosiery

(34:46):
salesman.
That's your pilot.

That's the pilot.
Yes, that's it.

One thing I liked about the pilot.

That I thought they lost to the rest of the series
is Alice's vulnerability.
She seemed most blue collar.

Yeah.

Struggling woman in that pilot than she ever was
again.
She didn't lose it entirely,but I really connected with her.
That's the only thing Iconnected with in that pilot.

Well, it's all those close ups too.
I mean all those close-ups thatPaul Bogart does.
Yeah, yeah.

So I felt like they lost that.
That's the one thing I reallyenjoyed in that pilot.
The rest was just pretty sad.

Yeah, it's just not.
I mean even the plot isterrible.
I mean it's so transparent.
She's like she's not interestedin this guy who keeps coming in
the diner and then he says he'san agent and it's like, doing,
doing, doing.
And suddenly she's oh yeah, wecan go out.
I mean it's so problematic andthere are stupid, stupid jokes.
There's this one old, dirty oldman who comes in oh no, keeps

(35:47):
wanting to take Alice back intothe bathroom offering her candy
bars.
It's so.

It's mind boggogglingly dumb and I can't
believe that cbs went ahead withthank god they did, but I can't
believe that cbs said, yeah,let's do some more of these I
wanted to get into what marisehad to think of these shows
later, but I will say, when shewent in the bathroom and he went
in there and you hear herscream and then the audience
laughed, her marise goes.

(36:12):
There's nothing funny aboutthat, that was practically rape.
I know exactly Exactly.
He wasn't made like a funnylittle old man, he was damn
creepy and he looked like azombie.

It's this horrible late 70s Three's Company humor,
you know, yes, which thankfullywould be gone by the time Bob
Carroll Jr and Madeline Davistook over.
I mean, I'm not saying theywere Noel Coward, but still a
hell of a lot better than this.
The only thing I like aboutthis episode is I like the fact

(36:44):
that Linda gets to sing because,kind of like Irene Dunn, Linda
Lavin's got to sing and sheshould.
She sings it had to Be you.
And the opening shot, the shotof Vera and the exploding straws
, which was in this pilot andwas used in the beginning of
every single season.

Yep, yep, I think it's a great shot.
I want to go back to LindaLavin and her vulnerability.
I do feel like she was morevulnerable.
I felt like she felt more likea struggling character.
However, the one thing that diddrive me crazy is you alluded
to how could any woman be sostupid to believe this guy was
really an agent after that, it'sjust, I'm like I couldn't even

(37:25):
buy in.
I couldn't buy into it at all.
I was like there was no shockat the end.

No, it's, you know there's.
There's suspending yourdisbelief and then there's
firing its ass and you're justlike what the hell come?
It's, no, it's just.
Not all the characters look.
Most tv shows take time to findtheir way.
This is true of any tv show.
There are very few show tvshows that are that hit right
out of the gate and go.

(37:49):
Some shows take longer thanothers.
Alice took a while.
It took an entire year and fivedifferent producers to find its
way, but the characters dideventually change and grow, and
one character who really changedwas Tommy.
He changed into another personBecause Alfred Lutter, the kid

(38:10):
from the film Alice Doesn't Livehere Anymore played Tommy
originally and then he gotcanned, as we said.
So this episode features AlfredLutter and I think they made
the right choice.
This kid would have been soannoying, so annoying.
I mean, phil McKeon is notLaurence Olivier by any stretch
of the imagination, but he's ahell of a lot cuter and just a

(38:32):
much better fit with Linda Lavin, I think.

Yeah, I was really uncomfortable watching him.
I I think he worked in themovie because it was a much,
though it was a much differentfeel.
Yeah, and he was younger.
Uh, I, I cringed when I watchedhim in the pilot because it
just didn't work yeah, yeahnothing wrong with it, it just
didn't click yeah, this, thispilot's weird because it's also
a different.

It's kind of a different set.
The the diner is called mel andruby's cafe in this pilot, just
like in the film.
Oh, I didn't remember yeah justlike in the film, and then by
episode two, it's mel's diner.
It's difficult to watch, itreally is difficult to watch and
sit through, but they sawsomething in it.
You know, because night and day, uh, when we go to my neck, we

(39:13):
go to our next episode.
We're going to jump ahead threeyears, but is there something
else you want to say about this?
I was only you want to sayother than see the end of it I
did mention how vera looked.

It was scary and sad.
Yeah, because this guy thatpretended to be an agent, vera,
thought she he was interested inher to be a star and she put on
this makeup and this hair it.
I think it was supposed to befunny, I'm not really sure, but
it was.
It was sad, it was scary, shewas like a psychotic scary yeah,

(39:45):
yeah.
And the fact that she was socertain, for no reason
whatsoever, that she was goingto be a star, it just it made no
sense it was sad.

It was sad, this show never could have flown but
we didn't have to worry aboutthat.
No, because, moving on threeyears later actually four years
later, to January 6th 1980, oursecond episode we're going to
talk about from season four,episode 12, 84 in the series,
and it's called Good Buddy Flowand can I tell you it was
written by Linda Morris and VicRossio and directed by Mark I

(40:18):
Love Lucy Daniels.
So Carol and Davis have been inplace securely now for a couple
of years and this, to me, iswhen the show really starts to
take off.
It's not the only thing.
The show didn't just take off,flo took off, but anyway, I love
this episode.
It's all about Flo and we hadto do an episode about Flo

(40:39):
Because Flo was I hate to saythis, knowing how I feel about
Linda Lavin, but Flo really wasthe show for many years.
And in this episode Flo isdating this big rig trucker
named Cy Smiling Cy Davis, andwhen she finds out that he has a
young new female drivingpartner, she becomes jealous and

(41:00):
she asks Alice to teach her howto drive a rig, because Alice's
late husband was a truck driver.
So along with Vera, they pileinto Cy's truck for a driving
lesson and of course, mayhemensues when Flo decides she
wants to take it for a spin andshe steps on the gas instead of

(41:22):
the brake and you can guess whathappens the semi plows straight
through the front of Mel'sdiner.
It is one of the most brilliantsight gags ever on this show I
think on any show the way thatsemi comes barreling through the
front of the diner.

You knew something was going to go wrong, but to
actually crash and destroy thewhole front of the diner is a
lot more than you would expect.

They destroyed the entire front of the diner and
Linda Lavin didn't want to dothat.
Linda Lavin's like uh-uh, I'mnot getting my Broadway ass into
this rig.
No, no, no, no, no.
But they convinced her to do it.
And you know what?
It's such a great scene.
It's such a funny side gag.
Such a great scene.
It reminds me of Mel and Floare very Lucy and Ricky at the

(42:11):
end of this episode, becausePolly Holliday is so Lucy in the
way.
She's just gotten a mess.
Remind me of the episode whereLucy learns to drive and she has
the confrontation with Ricky inthe end after she destroys the
cars.
Very Lucy and Ricky.
But this is such a fun episode.
I got to ask you about theactor who plays a smiling Cy

(42:31):
Davis.
Woo, woof brad, what was hisname was michael mccray and I
was like you go florence, jeancastleberry, this is not earl or
this is not one of her.
You know one of her usual guys.
This guy was hot.

He was a hot 70s trucker yeah, I was like wow
yeah right and I was like, whatelse have I seen him in?
And I couldn't I don't know ifI ever did, but through the
whole thing I kept thinkingwhere have I seen him?

because he is hot.
He was.
He was very, very handsome guy,so I'm like you go flow, you go
flow.
This episode features henrymarvin caplan playing henry
bessemer, who works for thetelephone company.
In case you don't remember,listener, and he talks about his
wife.
Yes, he did the frequentlymentioned, but only seen once,

(43:19):
chloe.
And do you know who playedChloe?
And it's very sad because ofwhat just happened.

When I saw that I was like what timing.

I'm so sad, ruth Buzzi yes, yes, she only played
her in one episode, but howperfect, how perfect was that.

Oh yes.

This episode is so different from the pilot.
I mean it's incredible.
This is the Alice I rememberand this is the Alice I think
people have such affection for.
You know, vera is dingy andscattered.
She's not pathetic.
Alice is warm and sarcastic,but a little bit softer.
Mel is Mel, mel's always Mel.
He cries in the end when hisdiner's destroyed.

(43:56):
And I said, you know, he andFlo were very Lucy and Ricky.
But I got to tell you the mainreason why I love this episode
is Polly Holiday.
I mean I'm watching theseepisodes again and I forget I
had forgotten and I was remindedhow fucking funny Polly Holiday
is.
And it wasn't just kiss mygrits, I mean, she was fantastic

(44:18):
.
I forgot about that.
Almost every single line ofhers gets applause.
I mean she's so good, don't youthink so?

Yeah, I do.
I think she was tremendous.
Like you just said, I hope tonever hear kiss my grits
dynamite, and did I do that everagain?

in my life.

Yeah, she was.
She was much more than that andit was funny.
I was really surprised thatthey even had that in the in the
uh pilot the kiss my grits.

Yes, well, you know it was originally supposed
to be kiss my honeydew, andpaulie holliday said that.
What does that mean?
I don't know what that means.
Not that Kiss my Grits is thatmuch more descriptive, but it's
just funnier.
It's the sound of grits is justvery funny and the way she
punches it, especially with thatsouthern accent oh, the way she
punches it.

(45:06):
And the buildup is always Melkiss my grits.
I mean you know it's coming.
You know it's coming.
But yeah, how about the?
The 70s is kind of the era ofthe catchphrase.
You know, when you think aboutdynamite and all the, you know
fonzie and a, isn't that funnyhow that this seemed to be like
this time, you know, and thesecharacters who got, got these

(45:26):
catchphrases and then kind oftook over the show, you know,
yes, and I.
I think that that's importantto point.
I want to talk about now thatwe're talking about flow is not
all actors are perhaps asmagnanimous as Ron Howard was
when Henry Winkler kind ofbecame the focus of Happy Days.
So you're Linda Lavin, thinkabout this.

(45:46):
You've been working your buttoff in theater your entire life.
You get a TV show that you'rethe title character and then
here comes this other characterup behind you which, just by
nature of the character and bynature of the brilliant actress
playing the character, justtakes off.

(46:08):
And so, yeah, there was tensionon the set.
They're people, they're human.
Who can blame her?

I mean, really think about it for a yeah, and
you asked me what I thought ofher and I went on about Kiss my
Grits.
I thought it really showed herskill in this, because she was
funny.
She was also terrified, she wasalso terrified.

Yes, what do you mean?

After she went through the— oh, yeah, she
seemed legitimately upset thatshe drove through the dining
room and she looked legitimatelyterrified of mel when he
started climbing through windowto get to her throat.
Well it's just it's.

It's a brilliant original characterization.
She is nowhere.
Polly holiday made it a pointnot to see the film alice
doesn't live here anymorebecause she wanted to create her
own flow and not be influencedby the movie.
And boy did she.
If you watch alice doesn't livehere anymore you'remore you're
like, where's Flo?
Yeah, I don't see her.
And then you see Diane Ladd,who I love, who we'll talk about

(47:07):
, and you're like, oh, it's atotally different character.
Holiday had seen women like Floworking as cashiers at truck
stops.
She had her own experience as awaitress.
She really created thisoriginal, funny, hysterical
character.
That, yeah, unfortunately andlook, I wasn't on the set, so I
don't know about the tensions, Idon't know about the stories,

(47:29):
but you know, you have to kindof think.
Well, maybe there was a littlebit of tension here, because
this woman is obviously stealinga show that's not even under
her name.
So that's one of the reasonswhy, not long after this episode

(47:51):
, flo left Alice and got her ownshow called Flo, and it debuted
that same year.
So it's, you know, it'sunfortunate but so funny.
It's like when Rhoda left MaryTyler Moore Show, the Mary Tyler
Moore Show stayed strongbecause it had a ground.
It had the structure towithstand the departure of one
of its most popular characters.
So did Alice, and that's whenthe strength of Linda Lavin
really shows.

(48:12):
As the Mary Richards of Mel'sDiner.
She was the one that held thattogether and Flo had a really
strong debut.
It finished its first season atnumber seven and Holiday
actually was nominated for anEmmy.
But in its second year theyshouldn't have done this.
Cbs moved it against thislittle juggernaut called Little

(48:33):
House on the Prairie and in thelate 1970s it was pretty hard to
buck the Ingalls family.
I mean it was not good.
So they moved it around againand again and eventually it was
canceled and that was the end ofFlo.
I mean it's so sad this hugerise and this star is truly born

(48:54):
and then it's over.
But for her part, holiday wasvery circumspect about it.
She continued to do film and TVroles.
We said she did Gremlins, shewas in Mrs Doubtfire.
The only thing she would neverdo is say kiss my grits.
Whenever anybody asked her sherefused to do it.

I don't blame her.
There's two things I want tosay about Polly Holiday.
First of all, I was questioningwhy didn't she go back?
Because not many peopleremember this.
But on the Jeffersons, I wasquestioning why didn't she go
back, because not many peopleremember this.
But on the Jeffersons, Florencewas spun off to her own series.
Yeah, yeah For one, and it wasreally bad.
It had Larry Linville and shewent to work at a hotel and when
her show got canceled theyburned the hotel down and she

(49:34):
went back to work at theJeffersons and everybody was
happy again.
I wondered why because she wasso integral to this series why
when Flo was canceled, theydidn't have her move back.
Now I understand the antagonismwhy that didn't happen.
Plus, maybe she wasn't eveninterested.
I don't know about that.

She probably wasn't.
I mean, some people are justlike no moving on, you know.

The other thing I want to say is that, because she
is so Flo, it's hard to pictureher as anything else.
And I'm going to tell you alittle incident that happened
many, many years ago when Istarted the hotel industry.
I was working the front deskwith a friend of mine and this
very elegant woman walked upvery prim and proper.
She walked up to check in thehotel and my friend said oh,

(50:18):
minnie Pearl, I love you.
And the woman responded thankyou, I really appreciate it.
For the rest of this weekend.
I'm Sarah Colley she went rightback to herself.
And that's what I when I watchPolly Holliday.
That's who I think of.

Yeah, no, I see it .
I can see that.
I can see that, yeah, she wasan actress.
It was a part she played.
She it.
I can see that.
I can see that.
Yeah, she was an actress, itwas a part she played.
She had a great run and shecontinued to work.
I mean, she worked for the restof her until she retired.
So I mean, she did, she did,but she was gone.
So what did the writers do?
They turned to Diane Ladd tocome and take her place.

(50:58):
But here's the problem shecouldn't really play Flo.
Who could she play?
She was out of her NBC contractby this point, so they had to
create a air quotes newcharacter for her.
But how do you follow PollyHolliday as Flo?
I don't know how you do that.

Well, it's a good thing they didn't try to do a
Darren and have her actuallyplay.
Flo, because that would havefelt flat,

, I mean.
But what are you going to do?
So you're going to have to youdo like a kind of a Flo
character named Belle Dupree.
That's kind of like Flo, butnot really like Flo, and you
know it's just.
I love Diane Ladd, and DianeLadd was a brilliant actress.
I mean three Oscar nominations.
She was in Chinatown, forChrist's sake, we talked about

(51:43):
her in Chinatown.
So I just got the feeling.
I get the feeling when I seeDiane Ladd as Belle she's kind
of slumming a little bit.
She's like I'm anOscar-nominated actress and here
I am doing a sitcom andunfortunately it just didn't
work.
She appeared in a year and ahalf of the show before she said
you know what, this ain'tworking, this ain't working,

(52:08):
this character.
She never really, even thoughshe won a Golden Globe as Best
Supporting Actress for this part, she felt like there was no
substance to this character.
She could never reallyunderstand what this character
was or who this character was,and I think that's how the
audience felt too.
You know, it's like who's thischaracter character was, and I
think that's how the audiencefelt too.
You know, it's like who is thischaracter?
She's kind of Flo, but she'snot Flo and it just.
It just didn't work.

Yeah, they should have.
Didn't even try to copy Flo.
Yeah, mash, when Trapper Johnleft and they brought in BJ
Honeycutt, they didn't try tomake him the same character in
any way.
No, exactly.

It was a totally different character.
They were too close to theoriginal template, I think.
So I don't think they shouldhave gone to Diane Ladd.
I think Diane Ladd would havebeen fine if she hadn't done it,
but that's what happened.
So I did want to talk about anepisode really quickly that
features Belle but also featuresanother wonderful character
from Alice.
It's season five, episode eight.

(52:59):
It's 104 in the series and it'scalled Carrie Sings the Blues.
It was originally broadcastDecember 21st 1980.
It was written by Mark Egan andMark Solomon and directed by
Christine Ballard and Linda.

Lavin.

Yes, she did direct two episodes a year after
the fourth season, and itfeatures the one and only Martha
Ray as Mel's mother, carrie,what happened in this episode,
brad, do you remember?

Mel's mother is coming to visit.
She was bringing her newhusband to celebrate their
anniversary even though itwasn't really a year anniversary
to celebrate with Mel, and sheshows up alone because her new
husband she's very flirtatiousand her new husband did not like
it.

Wasn't she flirting with a TSA agent?
Is that?

who it was.
I couldn't remember who she?
Was, I couldn't remember who itwas.
So she's very down and that'swhy the name of the episode is
carrie sings the blues.
She even sings and they try tocheer up, and everything is
happy in the end, of course.

yeah, yeah I think it's.
Yeah, it's fun.
You know it's fun to have anepisode with martha ray.
You know she was originallysupposed to do just one episode
but the character was such a hitthat she came back 11 more
times.
She she appeared in 12 episodesas Carrie Sharples, mel's
mother.
She always called Mel chubbyand, for people who don't know

(54:29):
who Martha Ray was, martha Raywas a wonderful actress and
singer band singer.
She was in films.
She appeared in CharlieChaplin's notorious film
Monsieur Verdue, in whichChaplin it was the first film
Chaplin made after he retiredthe tramp character and he plays
a blue beard type characterwhich you know.

(54:50):
We really should talk aboutthis film sometime because it's
a really wonderful film.
Anyway, in this film he marriesrich women and then kills them
for their money, and Martha Rayplays his rich American wife
that he can't kill.
She will not die.

It's very funny.

And it's kind of a key to Martha Ray.
Martha Ray is this over-the-topzany mugging crazy, crazy
character, just like she is inAlice, and it's a really I would
love to talk about Mr Verdusometime because it's a
wonderful film, but in thisepisode that's who she is.
I mean, this episode isbasically Martha Ray mugging and

(55:29):
of course it features a piethrowing, because it's Martha
Ray and yeah, that's pretty muchit.
That's it's.
It's just a fun episode.
It's a fun episode.

When this series was on, I cringed every time
Martha Ray walked in the door.

Did you?

really yeah.

I can understand that.

There's actors I like and actors I dislike.
I hated Martha Ray andeverything she was in.
You said Muggy.

Yeah.

You know, I remember my mom hating Bob Hope
because she's like he's such aham.
And that's what I feel aboutmartha ray.
It's like she's, she's like, amI not?
I'm funny right, I'm funnyright, and but she is funny, she
is.
I don't find her funny and Ifelt like she was a terrible
actress, who who just was a hamand thought everything she said

(56:15):
was brilliant and I never foundher the least bit.
That's funny.
It's funny.
Well, she has that for being asourpuss.

That's no that's well, that's an opinion, brad.
Listen, she certainly is anacquired taste.
A little bit of Martha Ray cango a very long way.

Yes.

That's why she wasn't a regular character.
She was recurring and she worksbest in supporting roles.
She's very funny in Mr Verdueand, yeah, I can understand that
.
She's Martha Ray the big mouth.
You remember those Paula Dentcommercials she used to do?

Yes, I do, and I always hated those commercials.
There's another thing I didn'tlike about Martha Ray in this
role.
I didn't feel her connectionwith Mel was real in any way.
They had no chemistry.

Oh, you don't think so.
I think they're very sweettogether.

I like her and Vic Tay back together.
I couldn't picture Mel beingraised by this woman and I
didn't feel like her.
Just making fun of him andcalling him chubby did not
endear me to her as a motherwhether she was a good mother or
bad mother she was just aperson that walked on the set
and said I'm your mother.

Yeah, the episode is not really a Chuckles Bites,
the Dust episode it's not like ahallmark of the series.
There are cream pies, waterbedsand Martha Ray, and that's all
you need to know.

And there are actually funny moments in this
episode and I thought thewaterbed was very, very funny.

Yeah, that was Because.

I remember those waterbeds.
In fact I had that waterbed andit's funny because this is one
that Maurice watched and he hadthat waterbed and it's funny
because marie, this is one thatmarie's watching he had that
waterbed, that's, and they, theyweren't the kind that stayed
firm, they were like a giantocean.

That was crazy, that was crazy.

Yeah, yeah, that was crazy and the whole cast was
on the bed oh yes of course,that's how the episode ends, of
course, of course.

So that's hasa la vista.
Belle dupree uh, she lasted ayear and a half.
Her final appearance consistedof one scene in an episode and
Belle calls the diner and tellsher co-workers she's taking a
job in Nashville as a backupsinger and she gone.
So Diane Ladd out of here.

She's like I'm gonna go make movies and I don't
remember the final episode, butit's a lot of flashbacks and my
understanding is they did notuse any clips with her in it
there was not one.

there were ones with Polly Holiday, which was
really wonderful, but there werenone with Belle.
It's like it never happened.
It was Bobby Ewing dream.
It was never happened becausethey woke up and there was the
wonderful Celia Weston as Jolene.

Jolene Honeycutt.

Our last episode of Alice.
We're going to talk about fromall the way up in season nine,
the last season episode five,number 191 in the series called
Tommy's Lost Weekend, and youpicked this episode, Brad.
Why did you want to do thisepisode?

I picked this episode because it's Mother's
Day month and I wanted one thatfocused on Tommy.

Yeah it is and it's.
The story was by Arnold Schmidt, the tell play by Bob Bentenson
and Howard Bentenson, and itwas directed by our old stalwart
Mark Daniels.
Well, it's an interestingepisode.
It does focus on Tommy anddrinking.
It explores teenage drinkingand how Tommy's social use of

(59:25):
alcohol just may have turnedinto an addiction.
So it was a very serious topicfor Alice.

And I chose this episode.
I went through different onesthat had Tommy and he did really
well, but I didn't likenecessarily the storyline as
well there is actually.
I looked through how people thestoryline as well there is
actually.
I look through how people ratedthe episode.
There is another episode thatpeople rated as one of the best
Alice episodes that focus onTommy.
I think it's Tommy was datingMel's niece or something like

(59:53):
that and that didn't reallyinterest me.
So because it was really moreTommy and Mel.
So I saw this one and Iactually really enjoyed this
episode.
I had a challenge with it,which you may know what it is
off the top of your head butit's a very 70s thing.
But I really enjoyed thisepisode.
It was both funny and sad.
Fortunately they did not makeit one of those.

(01:00:15):
It's a very special episodewhere it was all dark, like they
did with.
Like the Special Facts of life,episodes about suicide and
teenage years, when you feellike you're getting to the end
of your rope, tie a knot andhang on girls that was facts of
life, sorry it was a goodepisode, michael J Fox, the one

(01:00:38):
where he has been, and then wasalso one there was the what was
the facts of life spun off ofdifferent struggles where.
Arnold was almost molested by aman.

Tony Maietta (01:00:51):
Yeah, it's not that bad at all.
The worst thing about thisepisode is Tommy's wig.

Brad Shreve (01:00:58):
I thought it was pretty good, did you really?
Oh, my God, I kept looking forthe creases in his bald thing
and I couldn't find them.

In the episode, tommy comes into the diner with
a big cap on and eventually thecap comes on and he's got a
mohawk and the story is that hewas passed out and he doesn't
remember when he had gotten themohawk by one of his frat
brothers, and apparently PhilipMcKeon endured four-hour-long
process of makeup for this asthe artist cemented the wig to

(01:01:29):
his head.
Now, I'm sorry, that looks likeit was slapped on.
I can't believe it took fourhours.
I thought it was terrible.
I was like oh, you could havegotten a better wig for Tommy,
come on.

Okay, I did not like the wig.
It did not look real the waythey had the hair yeah but I was
impressed with the bald cap.

That's what I was saying okay, okay, that looked
real, okay I could not see thecreases, but the the hair.

It was supposed to be funny like they shaved his
head and it didn't even looklike his hair.

I mean, that was bad, yeah, no so anyway, the
episode, it's a good episode.
It was nominated for an EmmyAward for writing, so it was a
good episode.
It didn't overplay thealcoholism.
I thought Linda Lavin waswonderful in this episode and I
also love Celia Weston as JoleneHoneycutt.
So Celia Weston joined theseries after Diane Ladd left in

(01:02:19):
season five and I think they'relike okay, we have to get away
from the older, we need to bringsomeone younger and someone
different.
They can't be a ghost of Flo.
And interestingly, you know,celia Weston appeared in 90
episodes, the exact same numberas Polly Holliday Isn't that
funny.

Oh, really, the exact same number.
Yeah, because.

I don't think you think of that, but but yeah, she
was on the show just as long aspolly holiday was.
She was just, and they finallyfound one that stuck.
You know, I think was a verysmart move of them to get a
younger actress and to get areally good actress.
Celia weston has proven, sincealice is over, I mean, all you
gotta do is watch in the bedroomdead man walking.

(01:03:00):
She is a wonderful actress andshe really lends this kind of a
youthful quality to the show.
That really needed it.

But she's not threatening, she was also snarky
, like Flo had been, but a verydifferent character.

Very different character, very different energy
, and I think it reallycomplemented the other two
actresses really well and nobodyfelt threatened anymore.
She was popular but she wasn'tabout to take over the show and
she's a really good actress andshe knew that this was a great
opportunity for her and she did.
She went on, she started intheater and after Alice she went

(01:03:37):
on to do some wonderful work.
So, yeah, it was a fun episode.
I liked everybody in it.
I thought it was a movingepisode and I'm really glad we
got to see.
And thank you for picking thisone, because I love the fact
that, since it's our Mother'sDay show, we get to have a real
episode which really highlightsAlice the mother.
And it was, as I said, seasonnumber nine, the last season, so

(01:04:03):
there was a final episode.
Linda lavin originally wantedto stop after season eight and
they convinced her to do onemore season.
Uh, unfortunately that lastseason the ratings were kind of
in the toilet, but anyway, itwas time to move on.
Everybody wanted to move on.
In the final episode of theseries features an exciting new
beginning for each of thecharacters, because Mel sells

(01:04:23):
the diner.
You knew this show had to endwith Mel selling the diner.
Did you watch the last episode,by any chance?

Brad, no, I was going to and I ran out of time.
But I do have a question,because I've read the synopsis
many times.
Did Mel sell the diner first?
Because the way it's allwritten is Alice decides to go
pursue her career, jolenedecides to open her own hair
salon and Vera announces she'spregnant and then Mel says he's

(01:04:52):
sold the diner.

No, it all happens in the same day.

Well, no, I get that, Welcome to sitcom.
Yes, I know.

Mel.
The episodes opens with melannouncing that he sold the
diner.
Okay, that's better.
The girls come in with thisnews jolene is quitting because
she wants to open up a beautyparlor.
Alice is quitting because shegot a job as a singer and wants
to move to nashville.
The only thing that no one hashappened to is Vera, and so when
Mel announces that he sold thediner, vera faints and then we

(01:05:25):
cut to a commercial and then wecome back and Vera comes back
from the doctor and, guess what?
She's pregnant because she gotmarried in the season before.
So, yes, so everybody is movingon and Mel sells the diner to a
developer who plans to turninto a parking lot.
So not only has he sold thediner, it's going to be gone.

(01:05:46):
And this is kind of sweet.
As a going away present, melgives each of the waitresses a
check for $5,000 from the moneyhe made from this huge profit
for selling the diner.
And you know, I have to admit Iwas watching this and I started
to get choked up.
He gives them the first.
He gives them the littlecreamer shaped as the cowl, you

(01:06:08):
know, and you're like, oh, it'sa sweet going away present.
And then they pull, they reach,they look inside and there's a
check for $5,000.
And I was.
I have to admit I was reallymoved.
I'm such a softie with thesesitcoms.
I was really moved by it.
I started I felt a littleteared up.
I'm like Alice is over.
I'm like, well, it was over 45years ago.

The synopsis that you just gave is one of the
reasons I did want to reallywatch it so we could discuss it.
But I didn't want to watch itbased on what I read, because it
wouldn't have changed that muchand would have been such a
better written show if Melannounced the diner's closing
and they then went to what am Igoing to do?
Yeah, I can see that Alicecomes in an epiphany and says

(01:06:51):
you know what?
I think this is the sign fromabove that I need to pursue my
career.
Jolene says you know, I've beenwanting to open a salon.
Yeah, I guess I'm going.
That would have been so muchbetter.
Vera could say I want to go getpregnant.
Well, vera could have.
It could have actually startedwith fear being pregnant.
Yeah, no, and then you know,cause?
Cause, that would have beenlike oh and I'm, I'm going to
get pregnant because that's.

That's a little bit more of a what do I do with
my life?
I get that, I love that, but youknow, sitcom land, the you know
, the thing about Alice is likeall those celebrities walking in
the diner every five minutes,you know, not exactly rooted in
the reality, but yes, it's it.
It wraps things up.

(01:07:32):
The show was over, so they allhad very illustrious careers.
After Alice ended, linda Lavinreturned to Broadway after the
show was over.
As I said, she won a Tony Awardfor Broadway Bound.
She replaced Tyne Daly in Gypsy.
In 1997, she founded the LindaLavin Arts Foundation to support
education in the arts because,you know, she made a couple

(01:07:53):
bucks from Alice and shecontinued to work on stage
sitcoms the rest of her life.
She came back in the show in 92.
I don't know if you rememberthis, brad, it's called Room for
Two.
I love this show.
And she starred with PatriciaHeaton from Everybody Loves
Raymond.
They played mother and daughter.
And it was a really sweet showbut it didn't make it.
And then she did a show withSean Hayes which didn't make it.

(01:08:17):
And then she was doingmid-century modern and well, she
didn't make it.
But you know, she justcontinued to rack up Tony
nominations and Emmy nominationsand cabaret TV film work.
So she had a very healthycareer when Alice ended.
And I think what's amazing tome is there is a legacy to this

(01:08:37):
TV show which we could look atas a silly sitcom.
But you just heard when weplayed Linda in the beginning
that people, this is a touchpoint for many people in their
lives.
This podcast, co-host included.
I measure many of the things inmy life by television big
surprise, and Alice is one ofthose things I use as a
benchmark.
It really is.

Let me tell you my feelings on the show show.
I'm not going to try and dissit entirely, because it was the
70s and that is the, theframework I you know I knew when
we decided to do this.
I'm like do I really want towatch alice?
I don't remember it being allthat great.
And I said no, put yourselfinto the 70s.
So I did, because I did enjoythis show when it aired but,
there are things and I'm goingto bring up the negatives,

(01:09:20):
because these are the negativesI even felt during the 70s.
So these are things that droveme crazy.
First of all, the thing istying everything up in a nice
bow.
We learned that tommy'sdrinking a lot.
He has horrible incidences fromhis drinking.
He talks to his mom and at theend they decide to go see his
counselor.
Okay, I'm not saying to was analcoholic.

(01:09:41):
There is a huge differencebetween problem drinking and
alcohol.
If everybody that drank a lotwas an alcoholic, everybody
would be dead during college.

Right, right.

There is a huge difference, but the fact that he
just okay, you're right, I havea drinking problem, let's go.
Yes, I know that was the 70s.
I know that's how all thosesitcoms were.
They rarely carried storylinesover, unless it was a very thin
storyline, but that drove mecrazy.
The other thing that drove mecrazy is the two Good Buddy, flo
and Carrie Sings the Blues.

(01:10:11):
This was also a very 70s sitcom.
The things that made Flojealous and the things that made
Carrie's husband jealous wereso minuscule, silly, especially
Flo, who was sleeping with everyman in town, I know.
For her to get jealous justbecause he had a female driver
just did not.
By the way, she was the mostwell-manicured.

I know I've never seen a truck driver look like
that yeah.

Yes, cleanest truck driver I've ever seen, but
that's neither here nor there.
The fact that she was upsetjust because he had a female
truck driver who was standingright there and not acting the
least bit jealous when he wantedto be with flow, I didn't buy
that at all.
Right, polly holiday is reallygood, but the way they wrote her
I drove me crazy she has towork with what she was given.
Same thing I felt about carrie Idid.

(01:10:55):
Now, granted, when her, herhusband walked in and found her
in the bed with dave mad which,for those who haven't seen it,
it wasn't anything going on.
I could see why he was upsetbecause it looked like something
was going on, but his wholereasoning?
Just because she wasflirtatious?
No, I had a challenge with thattoo.
So those are my challenges.
It was so 70s.

(01:11:17):
That's really what it comesdown to and I'm glad things
changed.

It's not just 70s, it's the style of the sitcom.
You know, I think these thingsat least and I'm speaking about
myself here these things loomlarge in my memory, much larger
than it's like when you go backto a house you used to live in
and you're like, wow, it seemsso small, you know, but when
you're a kid it seems so big.

(01:11:41):
So when you're a kid and you'rewatching these shows from the
70s and 80s which seem likethese great fun shows, and you
watch them, you're like, well,that's really kind of silly,
that's really kind of stupid,that's really kind of bad.
Now, I don't think that wayabout Alice, but I know some
shows.
For instance, I always thoughtThree's Company was silly and
stupid and bad, but anyway.

(01:12:02):
So that's the way I feel aboutit.
You know, in our memory theyloom much larger than they
really were and that's the way Ichoose to look at them.
Hello, I'm a film historian wholives in the past, so it's
that's the way I approach it.
I approach it is how this, thememories I have attached to this
show.
The reality of the show isdifferent than my memory and I

(01:12:23):
prefer my memory.

Yes, I agree.
There are a lot of shows that Ireally enjoyed at that time,
and I probably wouldn't enjoythem at all today.

Different Strokes is one of them.

I couldn't imagine watching Different Strokes.

No, I can't, but I enjoyed most of it.
But I can't imagine watchingAlice because, as I said, just
for these, performances arewonderful.
Polly Holiday is one of thegreatest sitcom characters.
Flo is one of the greatestsitcom characters I think ever
played by this brilliant actress, and I think that's important.
I think they were all verygifted individuals, very gifted

(01:12:56):
performers, very gifted actorswho had a long run on the show.
Most of them, and mostimportantly, it brought Linda
Lavin into the publicconsciousness and this
incredible talent and thisincredible heart and this
incredible spirit that she wasand the world.

(01:13:18):
I miss her.
I think we all miss her and Ithink that's a nice way to wrap
up our Mother's Day episode.
I think Don't you.

Yeah, I agree, and I do want to reiterate that my
challenges with Alice.
It was so sad to hear about thedeath of Linda Lavin because I
knew she was an incrediblytalented woman.

She's part of our lives.
She's part of our lives.
Well, I believe we have onemore episode for our Mother's
May coming up next week.
Brad, is that right?

We do and it's one of my favorite movies that I
think gets overlooked too much.

And I've been vamping it for the past three
weeks and I'll vamp it one moretime.
I feel like it features thebiggest mother of them all.
That's all I'm going to say.

A very loving mother.

Well, brad I guess that was Alice and there's only
one thing left to say, but Idon't want to say it.
So let's not say goodbye, let'ssay good-bom-bom-bom-bom-bom.

No, let's say goodbye.

Goodbye everybody.

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A Sitcom Like "Alice" (1976-1985)

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