Dollapalooza! Part One: Exploring the “Valley Of The Dolls”(1967)

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
Oh, yeah, hiding from Helen.
The notices couldn't have beenthat bad.
Don't worry, sweetheart.
If it flops, I can always getyou a job as an understudy for
my grandmother.

SPEAKER_00 (00:19):
Thanks.
I've already turned down thepart you're planning.
Larry's not that crazy.
You should know, honey.
You just came out of the nuthouse.

SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
It was not a nut house.

SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
They drummed you right out of Hollywood.
So you come crawling back toBroadway.
Well, Broadway doesn't go forbooze and dope.
Now you get out of my waybecause I've got a man waiting
for me.
That's a switch from the bagsyou're usually stuck with.
At least I never married one.
You take that back.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maeta.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05):
And I'm Brad Tree, who's just the guy who likes
movies.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09):
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.

SPEAKER_04 (01:15):
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are
the ones that matter.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
As does your self-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood.

SPEAKER_04 (01:29):
Tony, we're already 30 minutes late starting, and I
think the listeners are tired ofme saying, Where are you?
What's the deal?

SPEAKER_01 (01:37):
I'm doing some stretches, some lunges, I'm
warming up.

SPEAKER_02 (01:43):
Um podcast.
Well, we've we've we've got abrutal climb ahead of us.
What the hell are you talkingabout?
Oh, Brad, you're beingobnoxious.
You know you have to climb MountEverest to reach the Valley of
the Dolls.

SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
Well, and that's what we're doing today.
Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
That was my very bad Barbara Parkins.

SPEAKER_04 (02:09):
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (02:13):
Yes, yes.
We are going to climb MountEverest today.
The Mount Everest of camp.
Because we are indeed, it's theday.
Today is finally the day.
I'm so happy.
Today is the day of Valley ofthe Dolls.
But before we go any further,we're having some technical
difficulties, listener.

(02:34):
So Brad might sound a little bitlike he's in a tunnel.
Just FYI.
Hopefully, it won't sound thatbad.
I think it sounds okay on thisend.

SPEAKER_04 (02:43):
I've heard celebrities on podcasts that
said they were crouched in acloset in the in the hotel room.
Uh, so hopefully at least soundbetter than some of them did.

SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
I think you sound fine.
I think you sound fine.
But we are we are indeed uhtoday's the day for Valley of
the Dolls.
It's our final air quote scary,silly movie uh this month, even
though this will drop inNovember.
Um, so I'm very excited.
And this was a listenerrecommendation.
Uh unfortunately, we can't findthe email.

(03:16):
Uh name.
I'm sorry, we're sorry.

SPEAKER_04 (03:20):
I will see if I can find it in the future.
I think I have it packed awayand and we'll get to it later.
I I can't find it for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
Yes, yes.
If we yes, and we will mentionit later.
So apologies, but thank you forthe suggestion.
I have wanted to talk aboutValley of the Dolls for over a
year because, as I said, ittruly is the Mount Everest of
camp.
Because if Chinatown was amountaintop of one type and Baby
Jane was another, Valley of theDolls is right up there.

SPEAKER_04 (03:49):
Don't you think so, Brad?
Well, yes, I do.
I um let me tell you, I I rentedthis movie three times this past
week.
Three times.
The first time I I you know I'vegot a lot going on, so I was
very busy, and I was halfwaywatching it, and I finally
stopped.
I'm like, you know, I'm notgetting any of this.
This I can't do a show likethis.
So I said, I'll watch it later.

(04:10):
And in Amazon, when you rent it,once you start it, you have to
watch it what within 24 hours?
Because that's the only place Icould find it.
So then I tried to watch it asecond time, and it was it had
nothing to do with the movie.
I was absolutely exhausted.
So I fell asleep in 15 minutesand ran uh the film ran in front
of me, but I wasn't there.
So finally I ran it a third timeand I got to watch it.
And you made your way through.

(04:31):
I made my way through.
Um, it wasn't as campy as Ithought, but my god, there were
some wonderful campy moments.

SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Oh wow, really?

SPEAKER_04 (04:39):
It wasn't campy all the way through.
It wasn't non-stop camp.

SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
Well, I don't know.
I don't know that any movies.
But I loved Patty Duke.
Oh my god.
Oh, yeah.
Well, we're gonna talk about Ms.
Duke, we're gonna talk aboutAnna Duke.
Um, you know, but we talked alittle bit, we talked about camp
when we did the bad seed,because this is kind of uh this
is kind of uh a month of camp, Iguess, is better than saying
scary.

(05:02):
And how we said that we feltlike the bad seed, the camp was
intentional.
And most people agree thedefinition of camp is
unintentional humor, notintentional humor.
Um, and that's certainly thecase with Valley of the Dolls.
I mean, Barbara Parkins saidmany times that there was no
intention of this being anythingbut a serious film, a bit

(05:24):
shocking for its time,certainly, but definitely a
serious film.
And somewhere along the line,the the train jumped the track,
and this thing went barreledright into camp because I mean
it's it's Vanity Fair uh did acelebration of it um uh for its
50th.
Uh and they interviewed LeeGrant, and Lee Grant was

(05:46):
laughing and she said, I can'tbelieve you want to talk about
this piece of shit.
But Vanity Fair called it abeloved piece of shit, and it
is, it is because of theunintentional humor.
What do you think that is?
What do you think what do youthink makes it funny?
What is funny about Valley ofthe Dolls that we call it camp?

SPEAKER_04 (06:04):
Well, first of all, if you had quizzed me, I would
have said the bad seed was notsupposed to be funny, but uh
Valley of the Dolls was done uhas a farce to be funny, and uh
because it is that bad.
Why what makes it campy?
Is that what you asked?

SPEAKER_02 (06:23):
Yeah, what do you what do you think makes it
campy?

SPEAKER_04 (06:26):
Well, just with any camp, it's so over to the top
and so melodramatic.
And uh, you know, I heard um I Idon't think I've ever seen this
film.
I really don't.
I I kept typing it.
Was this one of those times thatI don't remember the film?
No, I'm almost certain I neversaw this film.
In fact, I can tell you withouta doubt, I've never seen this
film.

(06:46):
Uh if I saw it, it was onlyclips.
And I knew about the wig in thetoilet, and I kept waiting for
that um because I caught a clipof you know the campiest scene
is that.
And and uh I thought uh wellthat wasn't as campy as some of
the things, but yeah, it'spretty it's pretty over the top.
I mean the the acting well, whatcan more can I say about that?

(07:11):
You have to think about we'llget into it.
We'll get into it.
We'll get into it.
We talked about before, it'sit's hard to define camp.

SPEAKER_02 (07:18):
I f I believe there's many reasons why this
train went off the track.
Um, I think there's one of thereasons why it's camp, and more
importantly, it's gay camp.
There's a reason why, if that'snot redundant, that that the the
gays love it because of the factthat it's campy, because of the
many things.
The Travilla gowns, okay.
Um this it's it's the height ofmid-60s fashion.

(07:42):
Now, William Trevilla is a veryfamous costume designer.
We talked about him earlier.
He designed the famous MarilynMonroe Subway grading dress from
Seven Year Itch.
So he's probably he designed themost famous costume, maybe
arguably, in in movie history.
And Trevilla uh was fabulous atcreating these over-the-top,
luxurious gowns.

(08:04):
He wasn't so great at creatingeveryday wear, which you got to
talk to Barbara Parkins aboutthat because she was not happy
with her beige outfits.
But um, so but that's one of thereasons why, because you've got
this the over-the-top hairstylesof the 60s, you've got the
over-the-top clothes of the 60s,yet you have this 1940s

(08:24):
mentality.
This film has a very 1940s typeplot when you really think about
it.
And that's because that's whenthe book takes place.
The book starts in 45 and goesfor two decades.
The movie takes place in the60s, clearly.
Look at the hairstyles, look atthe costumes, look at the this
the environment.

(08:45):
But it's got a very 40smentality, and I think that's
another reason why it's camp.
You're fighting, you're you havetwo eras fighting against each
other, and these things beingthese really 40s kind of like
attitudes coming up againstthese 60s mores, it's very
jarring.
I think that's another reasonwhy it's camp, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_04 (09:03):
Yeah, and when I read that this film cover the
book covers 20-year span,whereas this film is just a few
years, it seems like.
Uh I thought it would be betteras a 20-year span.

SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
Well, yeah, because there's no, it happened all
happen so fast.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
It's like there's no, you don'treally get the time to
understand what's going on withthese people.
Neely's a climb, Neely's ascentto the top happens so fast.
You know, she gets, you know,Susan, Susan Hayward ties a can
to her tail and she's out ofthat show.

(09:36):
And next thing you know, shedoes a little montage, she sings
a she sings a song on atelethon.
She's a star.
Yeah, it's immediate.
You don't get the struggle.
You also don't get the sense ofher unraveling.
Suddenly, she's just a dopefiend, suddenly she's just a
drug addict.
You know, it there's noprogression in it.
And I think that's what's alsomakes it camp, is there's just

(09:57):
no sense to it.
Yeah.
While the rest of them juststand around.

SPEAKER_04 (10:00):
I found the passage of time really difficult because
it seemed like Anne had justgotten there, got her job with
this uh attorney, and startedworking with the celebrity
circuit.
And things were just beginning,and she meets um Lionberg, who
becomes her love interest, andthen it seemed like it was the

(10:23):
next night, and she's tellingthem about all the times that
she came to this bar.
So there obviously had been apassage of time, and I'm like,
well, we should have had amontage of I mean they later we
got montages.
We got a lot of montages,exactly, a lot of fun montages,
talk about camp.
And I'm like, why didn't they doa montage there?
Because I was totally, I'm like,wait a minute.

(10:44):
I was really confused until Ifigured out we've had a passage
of time with nothing telling usthey had a passage of time other
than having to piece ittogether.

SPEAKER_02 (10:52):
And then she's immediately the Jillian girl.
It's like boom, boom, boom.
Now you're a Jillian girl.
I'm sorry, you're a secretary.
No, you're a Jillian girl,you're doing fabulous high
fashion commercials, and thenyou're addicted to dolls.

SPEAKER_04 (11:03):
You're just right.
We want a we don't want a model,we want something plastic
beauty.

SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
It's so funny.
Well, and then the anotherreason that I also think it's
camp is because wait a minute,it's a musical.
Hold on, hold on a minute.
I always, always, always forgetit's a musical because the songs
are so memorable.
Not God.

(11:30):
I'm gonna take out the theme ofValley of the Dolls out of this
because that actually is abeautiful song.
And I think it's one of thereasons why this movie's lasted
because of that haunting theme.
But come on.
I mean, it's probably a goodthing we don't remember it
because who doesn't leave thismovie humming, come live with
me?
Or the lyrical it's impossible,and not the pericomo, it's

(11:53):
impossible, another one, but ofcourse, my favorite is that
greatest of great gangway worldget off of my runway anthems,
I'll plant my own tree.
What the fuck does that mean?

(12:13):
Where are you planting your treeon the side side of Mount
Olympus?
I mean, it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_04 (12:19):
Well, you know, the whole D W Dion Warwick song, it
reminded me so much of Breakfastof Tiffany's because we both
love the theme song forBreakfast Tiffany's.
I still love it.
I love and adore that film.
But by the end of the film,you're like, okay, we've heard
the song.
Let's move, you know, we're donewith this song.
And that's the way I felt aboutI'm like, oh god, here she comes

(12:40):
again.

SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Starting with different lyrics.
She's always trying to get off,she's always trying to get off
that damn merry-go-round, butit's all kinds of different
attitudes, and now where is she?
Well, no, the song is haunting,it's lyrical, it's beautiful.
Andre Prevan and Dory Prevan,who wrote all the songs, and
Dion Warwick does the ultimateversion.
I've heard there are so manyversions of the song.

(13:00):
Katie Lang does a gorgeous,gorgeous rendition of the song
uh on one of her albums.
But you know, it's funny becausethat song is in culture.
Now, I just recently, ironicallyor not, I don't know how this
happened, but I just happened tostart binging uh Nurse Jackie.
Have you ever watched NurseJackie?
No, it's Edie Edie Falco's showabout uh drug addicted nurse.

(13:22):
It's a comedy, it was onShowtime.
Um I I binged it the past fewweeks.
Ironically, well, I'm thinkingabout Valley of the Dolls
because they're both aboutthey're both addicted to dolls.
And Nurse Jackie, the seriesbegins and ends with two
different versions of the themefrom Valley of the Dolls because
it's all about drug addiction.
So this it's funny because thissong just has seeped itself into

(13:43):
the culture, and I think it's agood reason why this movie
continues to uh seep into thisculture also because of that
song.
So, all these reasons, for allthese reasons, this movie, which
is over 50 years old, is stillfascinating to people.
People are fascinated, obsessedwith this film.
It's crazy, a very bad film.

SPEAKER_04 (14:04):
Well, let me tell you what I loved most about this
film, and I actually I I alsothink it's where they did a
downfall.
The opening montage of all thedrugs and the pills, that
actually was uh kind ofdisturbing for me.
Um but um so it then cut to Annein her small town telling people
she's moving to New York, andshe's doing the narration, and

(14:25):
you see uh this innocent uhyoung lady, and uh you know, I
she's leaving her kind of sortof fiance and her family and
going to and it was a very nicenarration.
And what really bothered me wasbecause they did that whole um
uh opening with all the drugsand you know all that kind of
stuff.

(14:45):
Even though I knew this was atragic story, the whole time I'm
watching, I'm like, this is kindof fun because I know you know I
know it's gonna go somewhere,but I knew too much at that
point because of the way theyopened it, that it was gonna go
not just bad, but really bad.
And I thought that was a missedopportunity on their part.
I knew too much because of whatthey did.

SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Well, Lawrenceville will be there forever, Brad.
Yes, to go out and experiencenew things.
I love that opening.
Um, so how are we gonna approachthis?
Because this, again, another oneof these, I don't mind when our
episodes go long because whenit's important, and these this
show has the potential of beingreally long.
So I think that I think weshould talk about just a brief

(15:27):
background about the book andhow the book was received and
how it came to 20th Century Fox.
Do we want to do that and justgive the briefest of backgrounds
because there's so much to talkabout with this movie, and I
don't want to go off on tangentsabout Jackie Suzanne, although
she's a fascinating, fascinatingbroad.
Um can we do you want to do itthat way?

(15:48):
Just a brief background of thebook and how the movie came
about from the book.

SPEAKER_04 (15:52):
Uh yeah, I do want to hear that because I know the
very little you're gonna bedoing most of the talking on
this one.
Um, should we talk about whatthe movie's about, or should we
just go straight to the book andthen talk about?

SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Um, yeah, please.
You you do that though.
You give you give the plotsynopsis of this opus, please.

SPEAKER_04 (16:07):
Okay, I'll do a very simple one.
It's about three ambitiouswomen.
We have Ann, Neely, andJennifer, and they are played by
Barbara Parkins, Patty Duke, andSharon Tate.
And they navigate the glamourand the heartbreak of show
business.
And um fame is not good forthem.

(16:29):
Uh, it brings addiction,betrayal, tragedy, um, a lot of
cheating going on.
Um in the end, and chooseindependence over her love,
which will I know that's a bigtwist from the book.
Uh Neely, basically Patty Duke,uh, spirals herself out of

(16:50):
control because of drugs, andthen we have a very sad ending
for um uh Jennifer.
Sharon Tate's character, uhJennifer.
And uh so the there's lots ofstress and despair and longing
to be a star, and uh in the end,that uh the only one that turns
out well is Anne, and that'sbecause she turned her back on

(17:13):
it all.

SPEAKER_02 (17:15):
She does, which is different from the book.
Yes, it is, which we're gonnayes, yes.
So that's pretty much it.
Yeah, it's you know, it's aboutthese three another three women,
another three women.
Fox loved stories of threewomen, a letter of the three
wives.
Love, I mean, it's the same kindof thing.
Fox loved the trip the threes.

SPEAKER_04 (17:31):
And before you go on, I'm gonna give one very,
very super quick synopsis.
Yeah, this is from Roger Ebert.
He said this film is a dirtysoap opera.

SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
It is, it is.
He he trashed it and then hewrote the sequel.
Roger Ebert wrote Beyond theValley of the Dolls.

SPEAKER_04 (17:50):
So I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 (17:52):
Yeah, he did, he did.
After he trashes it, then hewrites the sequel.
Uh, we'll get to the reviews,but yes, to uh to almost every
one of them, of course, justdecimated this film.
So that's yeah, that's prettymuch the idea.
And the book kind of follows thesame thing.
The basic bones of the book arethe same.
So Jacqueline Suzanne was asemi-successful actress who
never really achieved the kindof fame she wanted.

(18:13):
She got some work, but she neverreached that level of fame.
But she was in the show businessworld in the 40s and 50s and
60s, and she was very immersedin it.
She was also married to IrvingMansfield, who was a publicity
agent.
So she had also had access toall these people.
She was personal friends andsome say lovers with Ethel

(18:36):
Merman.
And that relationship came tothe point where it got almost a
little psychotic on Jackie andSuzanne's part.
Um she knew Joan Crawford, sheknew Betty Davis.
She just she was in the world.
And what Valley of the Dolls,after her the success of her
first book, which was calledEvery Night Josephine, uh, she
wrote in 1963, which was abouther dog.

(18:58):
Um, she began writing an exposeof Showbiz and the people that
she knew in Showbiz, and shecalled it Valley of the Dolls.
And for people who don't know,dolls is slang for pills.
So when we say she grabs thedolls, we mean the pills.
Um, but also dolls is also slangfor women, so it kind of serves

(19:19):
a double purpose there.

SPEAKER_04 (19:20):
And I always thought it was just about I pictured
women in the valley.
Um I pictured at night.
Well, Chris, I'm getting thewhole Sharon's uh um charente
image, which is not what I meanto do.
I have never heard dolls usedfor pills.
I was really surprised.

SPEAKER_02 (19:35):
It was a very 60s term for uppers for downers, you
know.
It wasn't it wasn't, I don'tthink it was in the lexicon.
Uh outside of a certain socialHollywood showbiz New York
social settings, I think of whatit was.
They called them dolls, slangfor dolls.
But it also works for girls, Ithink, because we're talking
about three women here, andwell, four if you're gonna count

(19:56):
Helen Lawson.
So there were four protagonists,really, four if you want to say
this, and she what was really uhgalvanizing, what what people
got really excited about isSuzanne based them on
recognizable people, on realpeople.
Brad just talked about uh themain characters.

(20:17):
We have Anne, who is the cool,efficient, suffering wasp.
Somebody said nobody hassuffered so well in Mink since
Betty Davis, and no wasp hassuffered so well in mink since
Betty Davis, and it's true.
Um, and many people believe thatshe was kind of modeled on
Jacqueline Suzanne herself, anda little bit on Grace Kelly, who

(20:40):
Suzanne knew from growing up inPhiladelphia with her.
We have Neely, Neely O'Hara, theupstart, the big-eyed,
incredibly talented upstartwho'd been born in a trunk.
There's a hint for you, andsomeone who had a well-known
addiction to pills, and who alsomay have had a gay husband or

(21:01):
two.
So I don't know if I need toreally spell it out for you, but
I will.
Judy Garland.
Nobody did that.
Shock.
Shocking, shocking.
Nobody even disputed that.
They're like, this is JudyGarland.
From the description in thebook, Jennifer, Jennifer North,
the tragic and beautiful blonde,known more for her body than for
her talent.

(21:22):
Now, who do you think that couldpossibly be based on, Brad?

SPEAKER_04 (21:26):
No, oh, I'm gonna well, known more for her body
than her talent.
I'm gonna say Marilyn.

SPEAKER_02 (21:30):
Very yes.
Many people cite Marilyn Monroe.
However, there was a 40s blondebombshell named Carol Landis,
who had a similar reputation.
She was known as the ping girl.
She was also known as the chest.
Can you believe that?
God, who tragically died bysuicide in 1948.

(21:51):
So that's also up for debate.
If it's it's a little Marilynand a little Carol Landis.
And of course, we got HelenLawson, the Barracuda,
diva-like, ball-breaking FirstLady of Broadway.
Who do you think that is basedon, Brad?

SPEAKER_04 (22:10):
That is when I was betting my head against the
wall, trying to figure out whoit is.
Is it supposed to be Ethel?
Of course.

SPEAKER_02 (22:16):
Yeah.
Okay, yes.
Okay.
First Lady of Broadway.
Because Suzanne allegedly had arelationship with her.
I mean, it's yeah, it's it'sspeculation.
It's speculation.
So anyway, so that's what madethis film, this one, that's what
made this book such a furor.
People were going crazy.
This book, I mean, to say it wasa success is a huge
understatement.
It was the it was the biggestbook of 1966.

(22:39):
And by 2016 estimates, it saidto have sold over 31 million
copies.
Now, this is despite negativeand dismissive reviews.
I mean, it's despite it.
It was on the New York Timesbestseller list for 28
consecutive weeks at number one.
Number one for 28 weeks.
And it was on the list for 65weeks in total.

(23:02):
And in 1974, it was in theGuinness Book of World Records
listed as the best-selling novelof all time.
Behind the Bible, well, it's nota novel.
The Bible's well, the Bible'sarguments about the Bible.

SPEAKER_04 (23:14):
The Bible's number one selling book of all time.

SPEAKER_02 (23:16):
Right.
But this was the number oneselling novel of all time.
And then Harry Potter happened.
And but still, it's still upthere.
I mean, it's still huge, huge.
It was a huge, huge book.
And you know, if it's gonna be ahuge, huge book, you can
guarantee there's a movie comingalong.
Yep.
And that's what happened.
That's what happened.

SPEAKER_04 (23:36):
Let me tell you the most tragic thing in this movie.
Oh, please do.
It's also the most ironic thingin this movie.
Uh, I only knew Sharon Tate fromuh Beverly Hill Bellies.
She was on the earliest season,she was one of the secretaries.
Uh, one of the only secretariesthat had a few more lines uh
before all of a sudden they allvanished and it was only Ms.

(23:57):
Jane Hathaway.

SPEAKER_02 (23:58):
But um in a black wig, by the way.
You recognized her in a blackwig.

SPEAKER_04 (24:02):
Yes, yes, in the black wig.
So I I that's the only thing Iremembered ever seeing her in.
So I'm sitting here watchingthis movie and I'm thinking,
okay, she is playing thischaracter who is talentless.
How ironic that I'm watching aperson who's talentless.

SPEAKER_02 (24:20):
Oh, I don't know about it.

SPEAKER_04 (24:21):
But maybe it was her role, maybe it was the role, but
I'm like, this is awful.

SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
You know, out of all of them, Sharon Tate probably
came off the best out of all ofthe actresses.
But we'll we'll get to thatbecause I don't I don't agree
with you in that.
I think there's an angelicquality that Sharon Tate has,
which which makes Jennifer justit adds another layer to
Jennifer, but we will get tothat.
We will get to that.
Um, so 20th Century Fox actuallybought the rights to the book

(24:46):
before it was published.
Way to go, 20th Century Fox.
Very, very smart because theyheard rumors.

And here's the thing (24:55):
at this point in 20th Century Fox, they
had made the sound of music, sothey were rolling in the dough
again.
You know, Cleopatra was over,they'd done 20, they had done uh
sound of music.
Richard Zanek was now runningthe studio, son of Daryl Zanek.
And 20th Century Fox had done afilm in 1957 based on another

(25:17):
problematic, scandalous booknamed Peyton Place.
Peyton Place was a tremendoussuccess.
Not only a financial success, itgot seven Oscar nominations.
So it was a critical andfinancial success made from uh
allegedly unfilmable bookbecause of the scandalous nature

(25:37):
of and it was directed by noneother than the director of
Valley of the Dolls, MarkRobeson.
Now we're gonna talk about thatand Mark Robeson, and there's
lots of ties to Peyton Place andto Valley of the Dolls.
Well, I just want to say thatbecause they had the template of
Peyton Place, they knew theycould make this into a saleable

(25:59):
movie.
And that's what they did.
They bought the rights to it,and it went into production.
It went into production in thein the mid-60s.
And what's interesting about thePeyton Place connection, too, is
not only do we have Mark Robsonwho directed Peyton Place, we
have two of the stars of the TVshow, Peyton Place, in this
movie.

(26:19):
This was also the time of PeytonPlace, the TV show, which was
the biggest thing on television.
I think it aired three times aweek.
Can you imagine that?
Three times a week.

SPEAKER_04 (26:28):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
And I know Ryan was in that.
Yes, he was in it.
And Mia was in it.
We talked about it with MiaFarrow last year when we talked
about Rosemary's baby.
She played Allison.
Everybody thought Mia Farrow wasgoing to be the breakout star
from Peyton Place, and she was,but the real breakout star from
Peyton Place was BarbaraParkins.
That's what really you have toremember this because when you

(26:51):
look at the ads for Valley ofthe Dolls, Barbara Parkins gets
top billing.
Barbara Parkins was first on thecall sheet.
Okay, you have an Oscar winner.
Patty Duke had won an Oscaralready, yet Barbara Parkins
gets top billing because she wasso famous because of Peyton
Place.
She was in people's homes threetimes a week.

(27:12):
So um, so Peyton Place and Lukewas also in Peyton Place.
So there's another star.
So we had two stars who are inthe TV show of Peyton Place who
are in this film, and you havethe director of Peyton Place.
So this film was really modeledto be like Peyton Place and be a
huge financial and criticalsuccess.
And somewhere along the line,they missed the mark.

(27:37):
Well, it was a financialsuccess.
It was a huge financial success.
But so uh the little bit of thedifferences with the book and
the film, um, and what we weretalking about earlier.
As we said, the the book startsin 1945 and it runs over two
decades.
And this is a major problem withthe film because it's a 40s
story set in the 60s.
And the idea that Neely canbecome a huge star doing the

(28:00):
kind of musicals they did in the40s, hello, Judy Garland, is
laughable.
It wasn't happening anymore.
So that you have a real problemthere.
Also in the book, um, as wesaid, the time frame is much
longer.
And at the end of the book, Anneand Lion are married.
At the end of the book, and Anneis using those dolls to numb

(28:21):
herself over Lion's affairs.
So it is very different.
And we know in the end of themovie, Anne famously, another
reason why people laugh at thisfilm, walks into the, I don't
know, three feet of snow, fourfeet of snow in her flats.
She leaves Lion behind at herhouse.
It's her house.
Why is she leaving when shegives Lion the brush off?

SPEAKER_04 (28:44):
Well, because she wasn't furious with him.
She wasn't, she just tells themit's time for them to move on.
But it would have a differentending.
It would have a whole differentending if she threw him out.
Why wouldn't she?
Why wouldn't she open the doorand say goodbye?
Well, because this is herwandering off in her thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Then put some boots on, girl.
She climbed, she's climbing inthose snow drifts in flats, and
then she's grabbing that stick.
The first stick wasn't goodenough, then she grabs another
stick.
We're getting to the end of themovie.
I don't want to get to the endof the movie yet, but it's just
it's so funny.
Another reason why this movie isfunny is camp because of because
of choices like this, because ofMark Robeson, the director, he

(29:27):
is to blame for almost everysingle way this film went off
track.
So I want to talk about the thecasting because the casting is
the big thing with Valley of theDolls.
But I just want to give anoverview about how exactly this
all came down.
Mark Robeson, Fred Zinneman wasoriginally supposed to direct,
and they thought, hey, why don'tthey get the director of Peyton

(29:49):
Place?
Because this film's like PeytonPlace.
And so he was set to direct.
They had a bunch ofscreenwriters.
Um, originally it was writtenHarlan Ellison, um, who the
producer.
Was would hope give it a like acontemporary and hip uh effect
to the story, but he succeededtoo much and it went way off
track.
So they brought a much more umthey said his his finished

(30:11):
script was filthy, so he wastaken off and he was replaced by
much more run-of-the-millscreenwriters, Helen Deutsch and
Dorothy Kingsley.
And the movie went intoproduction.
But here was the big thing, herewas the big thing: the casting.
The casting of these women.
Because as we said, this bookwas the biggest thing in the
world.

(30:31):
And when they found out it wasgoing to be a movie, you better
believe every single actress inHollywood was either considered
for it or wanted it.
And I just want to go over someof the choices for that were
either told they were that waseither advertised they were cast
or it's either advertised thatthey wanted to be cast or they
wanted to be in it.

(30:51):
I'll like to go over that, butbefore we do that, we have to
talk about the ruby slippers inthe room.
Because another reason whyValley of the Dolls is Are you
referring to Judy?
What gave it away?
Another reason why Valley of theDolls is so legendary is
because, yes, the originalchoice, not only the original

(31:13):
choice, the woman who was hiredto play Helen Lawson, the ball
busting Barracuda, first lady ofBroadway, was indeed Judy
Garland.
It's probably one of thegreatest what-ifs in Hollywood
history.
And I want you to think aboutthis for a minute, okay?
So we've already establishedthat the character of Neely

(31:37):
O'Hara was based on JudyGarland.
Helen Lawson is based on EthelMerman.
So here's what's crazy Judy Gwoof the last belters.
The last of the big Beltas.
Um Judy Garland is playing in afilm opposite a character who is

(32:00):
based on her.
She's basically playing EthelMerman, playing in a film with a
character who is based on JudyGarland.
And do you know who JacquelineSuzanne wanted to play Neely?
Her first choice was?
Oh um.
Think about it for a minute.

SPEAKER_04 (32:22):
Um, I know Mia was for was considered for
something.
No, I don't know.
Liza Manelli.
Okay.
Oh, see, I almost said that, butit just seems so absurd.
I mean, this whole thing wouldhave been a if this had
happened, it would have been oneof the most surreal movies ever.

SPEAKER_02 (32:39):
Exactly.
You have Judy Garland's daughterplaying a character based on
Judy Garland opposite hermother, Judy Garland, playing a
character based on Ethel Merman.
Folks, I can't top that.
That's it.

SPEAKER_01 (32:54):
Thanks for listening.
Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
It's mind boggling.
It's mind-boggling.

SPEAKER_04 (33:01):
Talk about missed opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 (33:03):
I mean, it's just, it's, yeah, it's it's but
anyway, it's it's safe to saythat the casting of this film
was Hollywood had not seenanything of the casting of the
film since the casting ofScarlett O'Hara, since the
search for Scarlet.
Okay.
So I'm just going to give youthe characters' names and some
of the care the actresses whowere either up for it or who

(33:23):
either expressed interest in itor was said in the press that
they were interested in it, andthen we'll be really quick about
it.
So Anne Wells, the maincharacter, uh the based on
Jacqueline Suzanne herself, uh,the actress was very close to
playing who they really wantedto play Anne Wells was Candace
Bergen.
Oh Candace Bergen was justbeginning her film career.

(33:46):
She had some really early hitscoming out, and she came very
close.
They even did costume sketchesof her as Anne, but she wasn't
having any of it.
Um, a couple of the otheractresses who were named to
possibly be play Anne wereNatalie Wood, but Natalie Wood
wanted to play Neely.

(34:06):
Almost all these actresses,almost all of these actresses
wanted to play Nealy.
It's so funny.
They're like, well, we see youas Anne.
No, but we I want to play Neely.
Um Julie Christie and FayeDunaway.
They were also bandied about.
And we all know that BarbaraParkins ended up with Anne.
Jennifer North, the characterbased on Marilyn Monroe, but
also Carol Andis.

(34:26):
So most famously, Raquel Welsh,she came closer than anybody
else.
She was almost signed, but atthe last minute, she said no.
Now, Raquel Welsh, when youthink about the character of
Jennifer, the body, Raquel Welshreally is kind of perfect for
her.

SPEAKER_04 (34:46):
I didn't know this, and I'm thinking she would have
been perfect in this role.

SPEAKER_02 (34:49):
Yes, she's actually much closer to the Jennifer in
the book.
Sharon Tate, as we said before,in my opinion, brings an angelic
kind of otherworldly quality toit.
That might also be hindsightfrom what we know what happened
to Sharon Tate.
Yeah.
But I don't, I don't, I don'tthink so, though.
I I think there's a softness toSharon Tate, there's a
genuineness to Sharon Tate, avulnerability to Sharon Tate

(35:13):
that I love Raquel Welsh.
She doesn't have it.
She doesn't have it.
She is much more Jennifer asJennifer is in the book, the
body, the one without talent, asshe says.
She's just a body.
She's doing her bust exercisesall the time.
So she was very close.
Uh, they also talked about TinaLouise, but they thought she was
too old.
Poor Tina Louise.

(35:34):
What was she?
32?
I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_04 (35:37):
Yeah, and that would have been a hard uh, you know,
uh, maybe Gilligan's Islandwasn't stuck in people's heads
the way it was later when itwent into mass syndication, but
uh that one I have a real hardtime with.

SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (35:49):
Um, unless they really wanted to go for camp.

SPEAKER_02 (35:52):
Ursula Andress, who apparently who just made a
splash in Dr.
No, and who Suzanne apparentlydidn't realize was dubbed in Dr.
No, so she would have beendubbed.
And here's one Jane Fonda.
They thought of Jane Fonda forJennifer because this was almost
Barbarella time.
So think about Jane Fonda'simage in the mid-60s.

(36:12):
So kind of makes sense, but Janewasn't.
She was also offered Neely, andshe's like, I'm not doing any of
this shit.
And here it is.

Here's the big one (36:20):
Mary Tyler Moore.

unknown (36:24):
Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_02 (36:25):
Oh my god.
Uh yeah, that'd be crazy.
That'd be crazy.

SPEAKER_04 (36:30):
Laura Petri gone bad.

SPEAKER_02 (36:32):
Okay, so here's the big one, and I'm gonna go
through this quickly because Ithere's just a lot, but Neely,
Neely O'Hara, everybody wantedto play Neely.
Neely was by far the meediestrole in this story.
Think about it.
She's a drug-addicted superstar,and she runs the gamut of
emotions throughout this entirestory.

(36:55):
Some of the actresses whoexpressed interest, and some of
these are really funny.
Uh, Tuesday Weld and Margaret,who I think would have been
brilliant, Shirley McLean, Liza,as we said, Debbie Reynolds, who
at 34 had just played thesinging nun, but she wanted to
change her image.
So I'll play a drug-addictedsuperstar because I just played

(37:16):
a nun.
Um, Lee Remick, Patula Clark,Elizabeth Hartman, Marlo Thomas.
Oh, I did hear that one, andAndy Warhol superstar, baby Jane
Holzer.
But the biggest catch of all,the one that everybody from
Suzanne Tzanick to DavidWeisbart, who was one another

(37:39):
producer, to Mark Robson wantedmost of all, was can you guess
who this might be, Brad?
Barbara.
Yes.
Oh, they wanted Barbara becausewhen you look at the character
of Nealie O'Hara, aside from theJudy Garland similarities, think
about it.
Super singing superstar comesout of nowhere, a quirky,

(38:02):
awkward girl.
Barbara would have been the mostideal casting for Neely.
If this was a different movie,yeah, Barbara would have been
perfect.
Because she is Nealie, she wasnot the personality of Neely
O'Hara, but the qualities ofNeely that made her a superstar.

SPEAKER_04 (38:19):
So when you're saying a different movie, you
mean if it was done well.

SPEAKER_02 (38:22):
Yeah, a good movie.
If it had been a good movie,Barbara would have, yeah.
Barb Barbara's perfect castingfor this.
I mean, if it had been adifferent film.
Um, but Barbara was pregnantwhen this happened with Jason,
and she was doing Funny Girl inLondon, but but her but Marty
Ehrlichman like was like, thisis not, no, this is not what we

(38:43):
want Barbara in.
I mean, they had a very they hada plan for launching Barbara
Streisand's film career, and itwas not in Valley of the Dolls.
So that was just not going tohappen.
But everybody desperately wantedher.
So for Helen Lawson, based onEthel Merman, we had Suzanne's
first choice and someone whoreally, really lobbied for the
role, Betty Davis, who obviouslywould have had to have been

(39:07):
dubbed, even though she probablywouldn't think she had to be
dubbed, she would have had tohave been dubbed, but would have
been amazing.
Um, Rita Hayworth, BarbaraHutton, and can you guess who
I'm gonna say?
Here it comes.
It's your Lucy moment, yes,Lucille Ball.

(39:30):
She would have been anastounding Helen, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_04 (39:35):
She would have been awesome, yes.

SPEAKER_02 (39:37):
Um, she, you know, like the Manchurian candidate,
you know.
I don't think that this wouldhave sat very well with her
general foods public.
But I don't know.
What do you think?
I mean, playing a ball-rustingBroadway diva or an incestuous
communist mother, which would bebetter for her career?
Who knows?

SPEAKER_04 (39:55):
I think well, I think she could have done the uh
this movie had uh the Lucy shownot been still playing.

SPEAKER_02 (40:02):
It would have been a very interesting choice.
It would have been a very, veryOr is it here's Lucy?

SPEAKER_03 (40:06):
Which one was the second one?

SPEAKER_02 (40:07):
It was the it was the Lucy show.
It was a Lucy show.
Okay.
Uh the Lucy show was windingdown though.
But but Lucy wanted the partbuilt up, she wanted more more
meat on it, and it didn't happenfor one reason or another.
And then, of course, came thechoice, Judy.
Um, because think about this fora minute.
So we have we have, and this iswhat Patty Duke said, and that

(40:32):
the producers, the directorswere never really serious about
Judy, that it was all a bigpublicity stunt.
Because despite what we knowabout Judy's life, she's nothing
like Helen Lawson.
Now, Judy was a brilliantactress.
I'm not saying she could nothave played it, however,
inherently ball busting, youknow, uh diva.

(40:54):
No, that's not who Judy Garlandwas.
But Judy Garland was at thepoint in her life, this is one
of the lowest points of herlife.
She just lost her house.
She was basically unhoused.
You know, she was doing herhotel thing, going from hotel to
hotel and not paying her billand you know, putting all her
clothes on and walking out.
Um, she was a real low point,and she needed the job.

(41:15):
So, according to many people,the speculation is, and I want
to be your opinion on this, thereason, obviously, for the
publicity and the pedigree thatyou have a star the caliber of
Judy Garland cast in this,playing in this scandalous book,
it's one thing, but you're alsokind of insuring yourself from a

(41:35):
lawsuit.
Because if you have a characterbased on Judy Garland and she's
drug addicted and she'sscreaming and yelling, and she's
just a nightmare, you know, whatdo you do to ensure there's not
a lawsuit?
Well, maybe you cast JudyGarland in the movie, so there's
no so it nullifies it.
What do you think about what doyou think about that that

(41:56):
theory?

SPEAKER_04 (41:59):
I don't know if it holds water.
No, um, because you know themovie that I always think of uh
when it comes to portrayals isum the Greek Tycoon.
Because that movie put you knowthe usual this was not uh uh
based on any character reel oror imagined blah blah blah.

(42:21):
And people would laughhysterically because clearly it
was Jackie Onassus and and uh doI have the movie right?

SPEAKER_02 (42:28):
Onassis and Jackie Kennedy, yeah, Greek, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (42:32):
So it was so clear as day, they put that up there
and and they get away with it.
I think that was so commonlydone, I don't believe that
story.

SPEAKER_02 (42:41):
Yeah, it's it seems like a lot to go through.
I think they did it, I thinkthey did it, it was definitely a
publisher a publicity boon.
Definitely a publicity boon.
Um, I you know I wasn't there,so I don't know.
Um, but I tell you, it's aninteresting take.
Um, knowing what happened withJudy uh during the filming, you

(43:02):
kind of can see the writing onthe wall because as everybody
knows who's seen this movie,Judy Garland ain't in Valley of
the Dolls.
She didn't, she does not makeit, but she was cast.
She there was a big publicity.
There was a press conferencewith Jackie Suzanne.
So it was happening.
It was big, and everybody wasexcited because you have this
legend who you're going to workwith.

(43:22):
Um, the only other character Ican think of that talked about
is Miriam Polar, uh, who umplays Tony Poehler's sister, the
one who has to go heat up thelasagna played by Lee Grant.
Um, some of the thoughts of thatwere Lee Remick again.
Carolyn Jones was almost signed,but she couldn't get her
scheduling.
Colin Dewhurst, Angela Lansbury,Arlene Heckert again, and

(43:45):
Maureen Stapleton.
And as far as the men, whocares?
I mean, really.
Yeah.
Yeah, really.
Uh this movie ain't about themen, the dopes.
No, you got the dolls and thedopes.
This movie ain't about thedopes.
And it's funny becauseJacqueline Suzanne had these
ideas about Cary Grant and FrankSinatra and Paul Newman, and

(44:07):
they're all like, huh?
Excuse us, excuse us, you know,because who's the men were props
in this film?
They were total props.
And you know, Tony Polar, whoplays the tragic singer that
Jennifer North falls in lovewith, played by Tony Scotty, his
one and only film acting job.
He was in, he was out.
One, done.

SPEAKER_04 (44:28):
Uh what an odd storyline.
I'm I'm guessing there was moreto it in the book.
There was, but he's there, andnext thing you know, he has a
disease and and he's never seenagain except to sing a song.

SPEAKER_02 (44:40):
Well, he was kind of based on uh, you know, the the
lounge the loungy groovy singerwas based on, of course, Dean
Martin.
You see Dean Martin when you seehim, and also Bobby Darren in
the fact that he had a tragichealth issue that shortened his
life.
So that was the idea with that.
But yeah, and the rest of them,Lion and uh Ted Casablanca.
I mean, Paul Burke was a TVactor, he was doing Naked City,

(45:03):
so he was well known, butthere's nothing to these
characters, they're just they'rethey're they're mannequins,
they're mannequins.
So the idea that she thought shecould get Cary Grant or Kirk
Douglas is just like wow.

SPEAKER_04 (45:14):
I I know I thought the Ted Casablanca character
could have been veryinteresting.
Um, and they're first of all, itwas the first movie I ever heard
that that's old that theydropped the F-bomb, and I'm not
talking about fuck that theydropped the F-bomb right and
left.
I was really surprised by that.
Not offended, but uh surprised.
The um Martin Milner.

(45:34):
Yeah, I kind of that guy's kindof cute.
What is he from?
And it drove me crazy untillater I read that he was from
Adam 12.
Was it Adam 12 or divergence?
One of those.
But again, I'm I saw him, I'mlike, oh, I like this guy, and
nothing ever happened to him.
Yeah, I mean, who cares aboutthese men?

SPEAKER_02 (45:49):
Yep, yeah.
It's you know, it's just whocares?
Who cares?
We we watched this Valley of theDolls, not Valley of the Dopes.
Nobody cares, even though dollsare pills, dolls are also women.
So who was cast?
We had Barbara Parkins, as wejust said, Peyton Place, big in
Peyton Place, the biggest thingon television at this time.
And it's funny because um shewas under contract at 20th

(46:10):
Century Fox, and she kept seeingall these women coming in and
reading for this new huge moviewith all this buzz.
And she's like, Hey, hi, I'mkind of the biggest star on the
lot right now.
Everybody knows Betty Anderson.
She actually went to RichardZanek's office and demanded the
screen test for Valley of theDolls.
Oh, and she threatened, she saidshe was, she said she wasn't

(46:32):
gonna go back to Peyton Placetoday.
She said she put the today inreally quickly.
So she goes, I'm not going backto Peyton Place today, um, if I
don't get it.
And she did, but you know whatshe wanted to be again?
She screen tested for Neely.
These actresses wanted to playNeely.
She originally, and she wouldhave been a really interesting

(46:53):
if the if the Nealie O'Harecharacter was like Joan
Crawford, she would have been agreat Nealie because her screen
test is actually really good.
But she did something very funnyin the in the screen test.
She um she pulled a uh ElaineStretch because Neely has the
line um I'm a big star.
And and Barbara Parkins says,I'm a big fucking star.

SPEAKER_04 (47:18):
I knew you were gonna say that.
I knew that you were gonna saythat.
You know, I liked her in thisrole.
I I um what caught me is Ithought she was gorgeous in the
beginning, and then when shebecame a glamorous, and it's
it's probably because of thewhole 60s styles, I found her
very unattractive.
But you know, it's kind of likeI watched the sets.

(47:38):
The sets were amazing, and thewhole time I'm like, thank god
that era is over.
Yeah, um I think she she lookedthe role at that period, but it
just I I just found it uh I Ithere's nothing about that look,
the hair.
It's fun, fun to look back on,but not uh it it was hard for me
to see it uh in today's world aslooking glamorous.

(48:01):
Well, she would have she wouldhave been.
It looked like it is, it lookeddrugged out and skanky.

SPEAKER_02 (48:05):
She was gonna be, she'd be an interesting, an
interesting Neely, but she wasoffered the role of Anne because
they said to her, you know,Neely is sandpaper, you're
velvet.
We need you as Anne.
And she she assigned it becauseAnne was I can see that the part
of Ann is so different from fromBetty Anderson.
So she's like, okay, I'll do it.
All right.
Um, we talked about RaquelWelsh.
Uh, the part of Jennifer went toSharon Tate, who as Brad said,

(48:28):
you know, did bid parts around.
She was under contract to acompany called Filmways, which
produced the Barely Hillbook.
This has been a Filmwayspresentation.

SPEAKER_04 (48:35):
Presentation darling.

SPEAKER_02 (48:37):
So she's always she was always doing uh her she with
the guy who ran Filmways, a guynamed Martin Ransahoff, was
pretty much her mentor andguiding her along.
And this was the next big thing.
She was she had done some lowerbudget movies in Europe, one of
which with a director namedRoman Polanski, the Fearless
Vampire Killers.
Uh, she began an affair withhim.

(48:57):
And about this time is when shegot all this new publicity about
this exciting new sex symbol.
And when Raquel Welsh hesitatedto sign, they called in Tate for
a screen test, and she got thepart.
She is her screen test is sowonderful.
This is the thing.
These actresses all gave amazingscreen tests because Mark
Robeson didn't direct screentests.

(49:20):
So many of their screen testsare nuanced and subtle and
beautiful.
And then when they filmed it,they're off the charts.
Um, but everybody to a person inthat set spoke of what a lovely,
angelic young woman Sharon Tatewas.
They all loved her.
And finally, we have Patty Duke.
Now, I don't want to go toodeeply into the background of

(49:40):
Patty Duke because if you dowant to know about Patty Duke,
she's a wonderful book calledCall Me Anna for her whole
tragic, triumphant story ofdealing with her bipolar
disorder and her life with hermanagers when she was a kid and
the miracle worker.
We all know she won an Oscar forthe Miracle Worker.
And this was her first job afterthe Patty Duke show ended.

(50:01):
And if you think about it, youknow, her managers basically
treated her like MGM treatedJudy Garland.
Her managers were just asabusive with the pills and the
controlling of her life.
So she knew this life.
She knew this story, and she wasalso had the mental instability
she was discovering of a youngJudy Garland.

(50:22):
And she had just finishedplaying three years on the
iconic Patty Duke show, whichone of my favorite shows when I
was a kid.
And she wanted to establishherself as an adult, you know,
because she was always a kid.
She was a kid and the miracleworker.
Then she was a kid, the teenagerplaying Patty Duke.
So she's like, I want a role tomake me an adult.
And she decided to do that inone fell swoop with Nealie

(50:44):
O'Hara.
Because there's like, Wow, yeah,there ain't no going back once
you've once you've played NealieO'Hara.
I mean, it's just uh she tookcare of that.
Um, but it was a struggle.

SPEAKER_04 (50:54):
And I love Patty Duke.
I uh obviously I have a hugerespect for her for coming out
about mental illness way beforethat was uh acceptable to do so.
And she is the one, and I thinkshe's a good actress, but in
this movie, she is the one thatmade it feel like this was
supposed to be camp.
Well, yeah, her her rages andeverything were just oh my god,

(51:18):
they weren't over the top, theywere above and beyond anything
I've seen before.
And I just every time she's onthe screen, I'd laugh in a good
way.

SPEAKER_02 (51:27):
Yes, well, it's just yeah, I I tell you, it's it's
it's so unfortunate because shejust wasn't directed.
She wasn't Mark Robson wantedeverything balls to the wall,
and we'll we'll we'll talk aboutthat when we talk about uh the
production.
But you know, so these are theseare your three main leads, and I
said Lee Grant playing uhMiriam.

(51:49):
Um, and then we have Judyplaying Helen Lawson.
So, you know, Judy hadn't made afilm in in five years, so she
was incredibly nervous.
And from what, you know, and I'mjust gonna shorthand this um
because we want to talk aboutthe movie too.
From everything I've read andeverything I've heard, instead
of the background of the movie,um, you know, she was not
treated well.
She would Robson would, becauseof her reputation for being late

(52:11):
and being causing problems,Robeson would call her at 6:30
a.m.
call and then keep her waitinguntil almost three.
And you don't do that to JudyGarland because Judy Garland has
too many people hanging aroundher who are going to keep her
occupied, if you know what Imean.
Um, going to take care of her.
You also don't do that tosomebody who hasn't made a film
in five years, to this legend,and then not escort her on the

(52:34):
set.
He would send an A D to get her.
You're very nervous.
You haven't worked in fiveyears, you don't know if you can
do this.
It's very scary.
Andrew Judy Garland, you needsome comfort.
You need to be, you you need tobe treated like the legend.
They hired her because she was alegend, because of the pedigree.
And then he proceeded to treather like crap.
Um, so that's one angle of it.

(52:54):
And you know, Patty Duke veryfamously called Mark Robson the
meanest son of a bitch she everknew in her life.
Um, and from from everything,from the way he treated Judy,
you can kind of see that.
And I see, I don't know that asthey said, it was it a publicity
stunt, was it a publicity stunt?
I think she had every intentionof of completing this because

(53:18):
she needed the money very badly.
But I don't think at this pointin her life, I mean, she died
two years later, that she reallyhad the strength and the energy
to be able to do it.
And that's what's really sadbecause she began to falter.
She just couldn't pull ittogether.
Her life was unraveling.
And unfortunately, this was aproduct of it being fired from

(53:43):
Valley of the Dolls.
That is very sad.
Yeah, I guess she worked for 10days, and out of 10 days of
work, they had a minute and ahalf of usable footage.
Um, so she was.
She was very famously fired.
They were all stunned becauseshe had filmed these scenes.
Um, they were all stunned aboutit, they didn't know what they
were going to do.
So when they were deciding whatthey are going to do with this,

(54:07):
um, and now this is funny.
Patty Duke actually said lateron, she goes, I realized that
Judy was the one who got offeasy.
She got out, and the rest of uswere stuck in this turkey.
And as I said during our JudyGarland show episodes, Judy
Garland, being Judy Garland,took the wardrobe.
But Trevia actually gave it toher because Judy would wear it

(54:28):
later in her later concert.
She'd come out in the pantsuitthat Helen wears in the famous
uh bathroom scene.
Uh, so we gave it to her.
But there's a very funny storythat Judy um Judy said during
one of her concerts in '68, shesaid, Did you all see that movie
that came out?
That horrible movie.
What's it called?
Valley of the Hoo-Ha.

(54:50):
So I like to think of Valley ofthe Dolls as Valley of the Hoo.

SPEAKER_04 (54:53):
Okay, so we've talked about the production in
the cast, which is we could goon for days about that, but I
think we need to get into themovie.

SPEAKER_02 (55:01):
Yeah, we do, we do.
I've been talking, talking,talking.
So production on this film beganin February of 1967.
And um, most people, as I saidbefore, most people lay the
blame for the what happened tothis movie at the feet of the
director, Mark Robeson.
Um, and as I said, it's muchit's interesting that all the
actresses gave better screentests than they actually were in

(55:22):
the film.
Because you know, Mark Robesonwasn't John Waters.
He didn't, he had done PeytonPlace, but he was better known
for these macho films that hedid, like Champion and Von
Ryan's Express.
He was not the right man tohandle these very complex
characters.
Case in point, he used to walk,he used to stay around the set
with a stopwatch.
He actually timed the actors.

(55:45):
Lee Grant said at one point hewent up to her and asked her if
she could make a three-minutescene into a two and a half
minute scene.
Oh no.
Now you Lee Grant, methodactress, you don't say that to
any actor.
You he was an editor.
He was actually editing the filmin his head as that's when he

(56:06):
had the stopwatch.
That's why he was doing it.
He had no empathy for theseactresses, for these characters.
Barbara Parkins said that henever talked to her about the
effects of pills.
Never.
He was more interested ingetting the shots of the pills,
of the bright red pills, fallinginto the water, falling on the
tray.
He never discussed with her whatpills do to you.

(56:27):
She said, If us if I had adirector like Martin Scorsese,
he would have talked to me aboutwhat I was feeling, what I was
experiencing.
So they all pretty much justplay bad drunk when they're high
on the pills.
You know, when she's stumblingaround the beach and she falls
in the water with the with thewater coming in her mouth, it's
like she's drunk.
She's not, he didn't, he didn'tcommunicate that with her.
And he also treated them allvery differently.

(56:49):
He was very detached with withBarbara Parkins, didn't really
give her much direction.
She didn't know what she wasdoing, which is pretty much why
she's always a mannequin.
She seems like a mannequinthrough this whole thing.
His idea was to make to try toget Sharon Tate to cry to get
that vulnerability.
And she never gave it to him,but he was always haranguing her
and haranguing her.

(57:10):
And with Patty Duke, he justscreamed.
He just he and Patty Duke andMark Robson had some of the most
legendary clashes during themaking of this screaming matches
during the making of this film.
And you can see that's why she'sso over the top.
That's why she screamseverything because she's being
directed that way.

(57:30):
She's being told, give it more,give it more, Patty, give it
more.
This is not Patty Duke is anOscar-winning actress.
This is not the way anOscar-winning actress behaves.
You know, it's it's he really isthe reason this film went off
the rails.
He really is.
So when Judy dropped out, it washis idea to go to Susan Hayward.

(57:51):
He had worked with Susan Haywardbefore.
And this is what I like aboutSusan Hayward.
Um, she said she would only doit if Judy was paid her entire
salary, which I think wasreally, really classy.
And she said isn't that cool?
And she said the only reason shewas doing the movie was because
of Mark Robson.
And she got$50,000 for fourscenes and, of course, the

(58:12):
special billing.
So now you have the casttogether and they're all kind of
combative and they're all comingat each other to create this
film.
So, do we want to talk aboutsome of the the campier scenes
that happen in this film andsome of the legendary campy
scenes in this film?

SPEAKER_03 (58:30):
I think that's a good place to start, and I'm
gonna want you to lead the wayon this.

SPEAKER_02 (58:35):
All right, all right, we'll do it.
But it's gonna have to wait tillnext week because once again I
talked too much and we ran outof time.
So we're gonna tackle part twoof Valley of the Dolls, the
continuing story of this saganext week.
But before we do that, before wego, Brad, I think you have

(59:00):
something you want to say to thepeople.

SPEAKER_04 (59:03):
Uh I will do it, and I'm gonna apologize to you,
Tony.
Tony and I um had plans thisweek, but I have run out of time
because exactly 24 hours and 15minutes from now, I will be
boarding a plane and leaving mylife to move to Spain, packing
everything we own in threesuitcases.

SPEAKER_02 (59:24):
So the point of all this is to let you know that
next week I will be back talkingabout Valley of the Dolls, and
I'm gonna be Karen Black and flythis plane solo.
Hmm.
I think I I think I'm up to it.
I think I'm up to it.
Send me in, coach.
I'm ready.

(59:45):
And then after that, uh for thenext few weeks, I'm gonna have
some great co-hosts joining me.
Of course, they won't be Brad,but they're good, they're
fabulous people.
I'm excited about uh having themon the show.
Well, so yeah, that's what'shappened.
That's what's happening.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:01):
I thought it was gonna be fine because we got all
the red tape out the out of theway, and I'm like, okay, this is
gonna be easy, no problem.
We have a lot of shit to gothrough.
So, and that is why I have tocontinue.
Uh, and I have I don't know howwe're gonna do it in 24 hours,
but if we don't do it, we'rewe're just going anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:20):
So and then Brad can join us again from Espana.
So, Brad, I think I only haveone thing left to say, but huh,
this is so sad.
I don't want to say it.
Really don't want to say it thistime.
So let's not say goodbye.
Let's really just say au revoir.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:40):
No, Tony.
Let's say buenos noches.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:44):
Oh, better, better, yes.
See you soon.
Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:56):
That's all, folks.

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