April 16, 2025 • 56 mins
"Nobody's as good as Bette when she's bad!"
So heralded a famous movie tagline from the 1940s, and nothing could be more appropriate for today’s film, Lillian Helman's tale of mendacity in the moonlight, 1941's The Little Foxes. In this classic film, the one and only Bette Davis plays Regina Giddens, a woman whose ambition knows no boundaries, and whose determination knows no limit. Many film scholars herald Davis’s performance as the greatest of her career…. and we agree. Delivered in mask-like makeup with an icy and lethal hardness, it is a bold and brave performance, and one that ultimately earned her a fourth consecutive Oscar nomination. It is also one that would also irreparably damage her working relationship with her favorite director, the incomparable William Wyler.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tony Maietta (00:00):
So, brad, in the 40s there was a very famous
movie tagline for a Bette Davisfilm and the tagline was nobody
is as good as Betty when she'sbad.
Betty Davis's 1949 film Beyondthe Forest which was the movie
(00:25):
that ended her career, by theway and it has that very famous
line what a dump in it.
But I feel like nobody's asgood as Betty when she's bad
could not be more appropriatefor the film we are talking
about today.
Brad Shreve (00:42):
You are 100% correct.
I like characters occasionallythat you know characters are
supposed to have gray areas, butoccasionally I like a character
that just has no redeemingqualities whatsoever.
Tony Maietta (00:58):
And that is Betty in the Little Foxes.
Well, I'm going to give you anargument about no redeeming
qualities when we get to that,but yeah, it is truly.
In my opinion, it is hergreatest performance of her
halcyon years.
I'm not talking about all aboutEve and her later career and
whatever happened to baby Jane.
I'm talking about her primeWarner Brothers years, which is
(01:19):
like 38 to 49.
And ironically, she didn't makethe Little Foxes for Warner
Brothers.
She was on Loan Out one of hervery, very few loan outs to
Samuel Goldwyn.
But I feel like it is not onlyher greatest evil performance
but her greatest performanceperiod and that's why I'm really
(01:40):
happy and pleased that we'retalking about this today.
It's going to be a real treatto talk about Betty and to talk
about this film, which I thinkis fabulous.
Brad Shreve (01:50):
And I got to agree with you.
I never know where we're goingto go with Betty, and boy, she
was vile.
I just hated her guts in thisfilm, as we were supposed to,
and I know she did everythingshe could to make this person
evil, including the makeup, soshe did a good job in that sense
.
Tony Maietta (02:10):
It's funny because people would say to Betty
people would always talk abouther villain characters.
What's it like to play evilcharacters all the time?
And Betty always pointed out Iplayed just as many heroines she
goes.
It's the evil that peopleremember and she's absolutely
right.
If you look through herfilmography, she plays just as
many heroines.
In fact, probably her twogreatest villains of the 40s the
(02:32):
Letter and the Little Foxes,both, by the way, directed by
William Wyler are bookended byher two greatest heroines, by
Dark Victory Judith Traherne inDark Victory and Charlotte Vale
in Now Voyager.
So she was right, she did playjust as many heroines as she
played bad girls, but peoplelove the bad girls.
Brad Shreve (02:51):
You hear actors say they like to play the bad guy.
Tony Maietta (02:55):
They're more interesting, and Betty's pointed
that out.
Brad Shreve (02:58):
I think of Keanu Reeves, who people say is the
nicest actor in Hollywood,though I refuse to believe he's
nicer than my celebrity crush,paul Rudd.
Yet even though he's this niceguy on John Wick, which he is
supposed to be the good guy, buthe's still blowing people away
right and left.
Tony Maietta (03:18):
Well, they get it all out of their system so they
can be nice as real people.
Brad Shreve (03:21):
Exactly but.
Tony Maietta (03:22):
I think we talked a little bit about this when we
talked about the heiress, and sothey can be nice as real people
, exactly, but I think we talkeda little bit about this when we
talked about the heiress and Isaid it's very dangerous for an
actor to make a judgment on hischaracter, that he's good or bad
, because as people, we don'tjudge ourselves as being good or
bad.
We're just trying to getthrough the day.
We're just trying to do thebest we can to get through the
day and get our goals achieved.
So when Betty, or when anyactor worth his salt approaches
(03:43):
a character that other peoplejudge as bad or villainy, that
actor is not judging thatcharacter.
You can't.
You are just simply playing apart and you're playing the
character's motivations to gettheir goals achieved Right,
because generally speaking, thebad guy doesn't know he's bad.
Never, no, unless.
He's a psychopath and hedoesn't even care.
Brad Shreve (04:05):
Yeah, but actually it's funny because just
yesterday I heard a discussionabout narcissism and they said
one of the reasons whynarcissism is next to impossible
to cure is the narcissism.
No matter what you do, youcan't make them understand that
what they do is wrong where?
Tony Maietta (04:20):
but regina giddens , uh, who is the main character
in the Little Foxes played byBetty Davis, is, yes, she is one
of the screen's greatvillainesses, but again, she
doesn't consider herself avillainess, she is just trying
to do the best she can becauseshe's in a society we're talking
about Alabama in the early1900s.
(04:41):
In the early 1900s she isconfined in this early 20th
century society where only menhad power.
Men were the only legal heirs.
Women were completely dependentupon men and all Regina is
trying to do is build a betterlife for herself and her
daughter, which I always thinkis a valid, which is a point you
(05:02):
want to point that out whenpeople say she's totally evil.
She's doing a lot of this forher daughter and she wants her
daughter to have a better life,which is what makes the end of
the Little Foxes so devastating,and we'll get to that.
But Regina's just trying to dothe best she can and
unfortunately she's in a societywhere women have no power, so
she has to take the power bywhatever means necessary, which
(05:27):
she does.
Brad Shreve (05:29):
And I'm going to tell you right now I have a
cheat sheet because I looked atIMDb, I looked at Wikipedia.
None of them really helped me,because I had a hard time with
this film.
There's a lot of characters andyou were introduced to all of
them at the same time.
So I went to chat GPT and Isaid tell me who these
characters are and what theirrelationship is to each other.
So I have, because I couldn'tkeep the name straight.
(05:51):
So I have a little cheat sheetright in front of me.
Makes sense, it makes sense.
Actually it was nice and neatfor me, much easier than what
were on the other places.
Tony Maietta (05:59):
No, you're right, there are a lot of characters
and it's very and when we talkabout the story of the Little
Foxes, it is incredibly complexand can be a bit convoluted to
follow the twists and the turns.
Yes, because it's based on aplay by Lillian Hellman and the
play is incredibly complex.
So obviously the film is goingto be incredibly complex.
Brad Shreve (06:21):
And before we get into the story itself, I'm going
to tell you my journey withthis was my first thought as I,
as it began, I'm like, wow, thisis a beautifully done movie and
I hate it, and I'll tell you.
When we get into it, I'll tellyou I hate it.
Then I got so, oh, I reallylike this.
And then at the end I'm like,oh, this was satisfying yes, it
(06:42):
is.
Tony Maietta (06:43):
It is beautifully shot, it is phenomenally acted.
It is incredibly directed by,as I said, mr William Wyler and
starring Miss Betty Davis.
But before it became a film, itwas a play, and the film the
Little Foxes is based on the1939 play by Lillian Hellman
that starred Tallulah Bankhead,which was an enormous success,
(07:07):
and Bankhead's performance asRegina became legendary.
It ran for 410 performances andBankhead played every single
one of them.
That's what you love aboutthese old.
You know they never miss aperformance.
They would go on that stagewith 106 fever.
(07:27):
She didn't miss a single one ofthem.
Hellman called this play anangry comedy, which I always
thought was very interesting.
We talk about a lot of filmswhich people think are horror
films or very dramatic films,and their creators refer to them
as comedies, which is reallyinteresting.
Brad Shreve (07:50):
And the title the Little Foxeses comes from the
bible.
Did you know that?
Did you check that out?
Tony Maietta (07:53):
I did and I'm not poetic enough that I get the
references.
Brad Shreve (07:54):
Well, I'll tell you what.
My ex was a poet and we.
That's one area we didn'tconnect the title.
Tony Maietta (07:59):
The little foxes comes from the bible and the
quote is take us the foxes.
The little foxes who spoil thevines, for our vines have tender
grapes, um, so that's where thelittle foxes.
So basically, what they'resaying is the foxes are villains
, the foxes are predators, andthat's who these people are the
family, regina's family, thehubbards regina's name is Regina
(08:24):
Hubbard Giddens.
The Hubbards are the foxes, thepredators, out to take
advantage of everybody and takeeverything they can.
And the title actually is kindof funny.
The title the Little Foxes wassuggested by Dorothy Parker, who
was a friend of LillianHellman's and actually
contributed to the screenplaywhen it was eventually made into
(08:45):
a film.
Do you want to give us I knowit's complex and I will help you
out when you need it Can youtell us a little bit about what
the plot is?
What's the Little Foxes about?
And don't feel like you've gotto get really complicated
because we'll talk as we go on.
Brad Shreve (08:58):
Yeah, it's really just a big scheme to make money.
It is a Southern family thatI'm generalizing here, so if
you're sent from the South don'tget too upset with me.
But having lived a good portionof my life in the South and
North Carolina, it's all aboutappearances, so a lot of times
what looks like the woman is notin control when really she is.
Very frequently.
So.
Anyway, it is a scheme to makemoney by getting a mill put into
(09:23):
the town to produce the cotton,and they are working with an
investor from the north I thinkit's from New York.
Tony Maietta (09:30):
Correct Chicago.
Brad Shreve (09:32):
Okay, chicago, you are correct, and he is going to
put the factory down there sothat they can have the cotton
right into the factory.
Tony Maietta (09:39):
Right.
Brad Shreve (09:40):
And so, betty.
Tony Maietta (09:41):
Davis Cheap labor.
Brad Shreve (09:42):
Cheap labor, cheap labor.
Yes, I know that, for my dad'scompany moved to the South for
the same reason.
It wasn't his company he owned,by the way.
Anyway, so, betty Davis and hertwo brothers her husband is ill
, so at the beginning of themovie he is not in the picture.
He has heart problems.
And so the movie begins.
She and her two brothers areputting together a scheme to
(10:04):
invest into getting this millbuilt so that they can basically
make millions.
Right, right and that's how thestory begins.
Tony Maietta (10:14):
That's how it begins.
So they each say they willinvest a third into this mill to
get it going.
Well, it's no problem for thebrothers.
Why?
Because they're men, they havetheir money.
But Betty Regina, aka Regina,has to turn to her husband for
the money.
And her husband is HoraceGiddens and yes, you're right,
(10:34):
he is not there.
He didn't win.
The play starts.
Horace is out of town.
Horace is poorly.
He's feeling poorly.
They don't really, we don'treally know why Horace is ill,
but he has a very, very badheart condition.
They've been out of eachother's lives for quite a while.
So Regina and Horace is veryhighly principled.
(10:55):
He third so that they couldinvest in this mill.
And she sends her daughter, whois Alexandra Giddens and she's
(11:16):
played by the wonderful TeresaWright, to go and fetch the
father and bring him back.
And that's the way the play andthe film start.
And what's interesting aboutthis and we'll go more into the
plot as it goes on but what'sreally interesting about the
Little Fox is, as I said,tallulah Bankhead played every
single performance.
Tallulah Bankhead, for aBroadway actress, was so closely
(11:38):
identified with the part ofRegina Giddens that she was
actually on the cover of Timemagazine.
She not only played everyperformance, she toured with it.
So you'd think, wow, here's awoman who's not only brilliant
in this role but is so closelyidentified with it.
She's on the cover of TimeMagazine.
Don't you think they'd cast herin the film?
Brad Shreve (11:59):
But I think you're going to tell me Betty Davis had
something to do with this.
Tony Maietta (12:02):
Well, yes and no, we know how Hollywood works.
Unfortunately, TallulahBankhead, who had made films in
the early 30s.
so she was not a stranger tofilms.
She made films in the 20s and30s.
She had not made a film in 10years and she just wasn't a big
enough box office name.
And when Sam Goldwyn bought theLittle Foxes from Lillian
(12:26):
Hellman he brought back almostall of the original Broadway
cast except for Regina Giddens,because he wanted to reunite
William Wyler with Betty Davis.
William Wyler and Betty Davishad done Jezebel together.
Betty won her first Oscar orsecond Oscar, the Letter, the
(12:46):
year before another brilliantperformance and he wanted to
bring them back again because hethought it was a perfect pair.
And actually, in allobjectivity, betty Davis is
perfect for the role of ReginaGiddens.
However, she is kind ofstealing food out of the mouth
of Tallulah Bankhead.
So you know that's nothing new.
These two went back and forthfor years.
(13:07):
You know Betty Davis andTallulah Bankhead were
constantly.
Betty Davis was constantlytaking Tallulah Bankhead's roles
and doing them on film.
She did it with Dark Victory.
She kind of did it with Jezebel.
Miriam Hopkins was on Broadwayand Jezebel, but Bankhead played
her.
She did it with Jezebel.
Miriam Hopkins was on Broadwayand Jezebel, but Bankhead played
her.
She did it with Little Foxes Ina couple years down the road
(13:29):
here.
She's going to do a pretty goodBankhead impression in All
About Eve, so these two werealways at each other.
But the point is that, yes,it's a shame that Tallulah was
not able to recreate herBroadway role, but it's not like
they went out there and castsomebody totally inappropriate.
Betty Davis was kind of born toplay this role, don't you?
Brad Shreve (13:49):
think, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I will say.
I'm looking at a picture ofTallulah Bankhead right now from
1939, and from an appearancestandpoint she is much more of a
close to Teresa Wright beingthe daughter.
Well, yeah, she is a morebeautiful woman, even though she
has a very stern look, becauseit's from the play that I'm
looking at.
But no, bette Davis was awesomein this.
Tony Maietta (14:11):
She was just awesome, she's yes, and Bette
was very hesitant to do this.
Okay, she said to Sam Goldwynand I would love to, I could do
a whole podcast about SamGoldwyn because he's a wonderful
Hollywood guy.
He's just one of those mythichollywood moguls.
He was a true, true, trueindependent.
Okay, no, maybe we'll do a samgoldwyn month.
(14:32):
We oh there, you.
That's a great idea, so I'm notgoing to go into it.
Sam goldwyn, originallyoriginally called schmule
goldfish, born in warsaw, likeall these moguls, they were born
with like this, this crazy,they were born within I don't
know how many miles of each.
Like all these moguls they wereborn with like this, this crazy
, they were born within I don'tknow how many miles of each
other.
All these moguls Louis B, mayerand Zucor and Goldman Goldman
all born together and all endedup in Hollywood as the moguls.
(14:54):
Anyway, uh, goldman was a truepioneer though Goldman was, and
his partners were responsiblefor the first full length
feature film shot in Hollywoodin 1914 called the Squaw man.
So when I say pioneer, he was apioneer, but he was also truly
independent because he keptgetting screwed over by his
partners.
So he went totally independentin the early 30s.
(15:15):
And what was great about Goldwynwas.
I don't know how much you knowabout Goldwyn, but he was a real
character in the fact that hewas known for his malapropisms.
They were called Goldwynisms.
He would say things like anoral agreement isn't worth the
paper it's written on, oranother one that he said that
was very funny was when peoplewould all try to get together
(15:35):
he'd go include me out.
So he was for a guy who had nota great command of the English
language.
He was very.
He had good taste and one ofthe things he did he paid top
dollar for literary propertiesfrom the beginning of his career
and he was funding these allhimself.
Okay, he went to the Bank ofAmerica, took out a loan,
(15:57):
mortgaged his house, made amovie, hoped the movie made a
profit so he could pay the bankand then went on to the next one
.
I mean, this is how this guyworks, so a true independent.
So when he purchased the littlefoxes, he needed a box office
star.
He needed star insurance andthere was nobody bigger in 1941
than Betty Davis.
She was the biggest female boxoffice star in the world.
(16:20):
So what happened was thatGoldwyn wrangled with Warner
Brothers to get her services tohave Warner Brothers loan and I
think I believe he traded.
He did have a Gary Cooper owedGoldwyn a film, so he traded
Gary Cooper for Betty Davis.
He also paid Warner Brothers$300,000 for Betty Davis.
(16:40):
Now Betty Davis didn't get$300,000.
She got her regular salary.
This is one of the shittythings about the studio system
was a studio would loan you outand make $300,000 off of you,
but you'd still make your weeklysalary.
But Betty worked it out so shegot a percentage of that
$300,000 because she was Betty.
Brad Shreve (16:58):
Davis.
Tony Maietta (16:59):
Anyway, they obtained the services of Betty
Davis, as I said.
She said please let Tallulahplay this.
Tallulah should play this.
I don't want to do this.
She claimed she begged Golden,which I kind of doubt.
She begged him.
That doesn't sound like Betty,but she was smart.
She knew that she could comeoff badly here by taking this
(17:22):
part away from Bankhead, aftershe already took away Dark
Victory from Bankhead.
But golden refused and he saidlook, betty, if you're not going
to play at someone else's andnot bankhead.
So betty was like all right,then I might as well do it.
And she also had theconsolation of her favorite
director, william weiler, toguide her through this film.
Brad Shreve (17:38):
And Wyler did a great job.
Everybody did a great job.
Tony Maietta (17:42):
So what happened was that Betty, against her
wishes, went and saw Tallulahplay this role, play the Little
Foxes.
Later in her life Betty claimedthat the only way to play it
was the way Tallulah played it,which is how she played it and
everything else I've read andeverything else that Wyler has
said is exactly not true.
(18:03):
Tallulah played the part ofRegina.
She's a Southern charmer.
You get a lot more flies withhoney than you do with vinegar
and I imagine the way Tallulahplayed it was very sensual, very
syrupy, very sweet, you know,on the surface, and then she's a
(18:24):
viper underneath and Bettydoesn't play it that way at all.
Betty's very harsh, betty'svery cold, betty's very, I guess
, if you think about it, likethe difference between syrup,
sweet syrup and hard candy.
So Tallulah is the sweet syrup,just oozing charm and
sensuality, and Betty is toughas ice cracked hard candy.
Brad Shreve (18:48):
And you know, now that you mentioned that the
whole time I'm watching Betty inthis film, her character was
unlikable from the very firstsecond and it's like nobody
would want to sit with thiswoman and she was controlling
the environment and just alwayshad this very sour look on her
face and I do believe it wouldhave been a little more
realistic.
The best con artists are theones that are lovable and
adoring.
(19:08):
Yeah, so I mean, she's notreally a con artist, but she
certainly has to get by it.
She's a schemer, she's a, she'sa conniver.
So it would have been probablya little more realistic if she
was more likable, but it it'sstill.
Her performance was so I'm notgoing to say it ruined the film
at all.
Tony Maietta (19:22):
Yeah, I want to talk more about her performance
later on, but I just want totalk about the rest of this cast
.
So, as I said, goldwyn sparedno expense when he would make
these films.
He had done Doddsworth, he'ddone Aerosmith, he'd done
Wuthering Heights.
He was known for his greatliterary adaptions.
Later on he would do Guys andDolls.
He would do the Best Years ofOur Lives.
(19:44):
So, alongside Davis and Wyler,which were pretty pricey talents
, greg Toland cinematography.
Now, for those of you who don'tknow who Greg Toland is, greg
Toland was a pioneer of deepfocus photography, which
basically means the foregroundand the middle ground and the
background are all in sharpfocus.
(20:05):
You can see everything andthere are scenes in the little
foxes which I want to talk aboutlater, where that is so clearly
evident.
It's a brilliant use of deepfocus.
Um, for the costumes, ori kellywe talked about ori kelly,
mythic costume designer.
He did the costumes.
Lillian Hellman wrote herscreenplay, wrote her version of
(20:27):
the screenplay with help fromDorothy Parker and Alan Campbell
.
So that ain't too shabby Tohave Dorothy Parker work on your
screenplay with you.
The music was by Meredith theMusic man, wilson.
Obviously this was before theMusic man, but Meredith Wilson
did the music and five membersof the original Broadway cast
(20:47):
repeated their roles PatriciaCollins, who played Bertie, dan
Durea, who plays Leo, thesniveling little simp Leo, who I
love.
Charles Dingle plays Ben, oneof her brothers.
Carl Benton Reed plays herother brother.
Oscar dingle plays ben, one ofher brothers.
Carl benton reed plays herother brother, oscar.
And john marriott is cowell theservant.
Did you say herbert marshall?
(21:08):
I didn't get to him yet.
Okay, sorry was he in the play.
He was not in the play, okay, no.
In.
In addition to the originalcast members theresa wright, who
was making her film debut,plays alexandra giddens, their
daughter, betty davis's uh,regina giddens daughter zan.
Brad Shreve (21:21):
Uh, she Davis' daughter.
Tony Maietta (21:22):
Regina Giddens' daughter Zan.
She got an Oscar nomination forthis.
She later went on to win anOscar for the following year for
Mrs Miniver and she was also inthe Best Years of Our Lives.
Shadow of a Doubt, pride of theEye.
She had a great career in the40s.
Teresa Wright she's wonderful.
The yummy Richard Carlson whoplays David, who's just so
(21:46):
handsome.
I'm always thrown off by howhandsome Richard Carlson is.
I'm like what happened to thisguy?
Why didn't he become WilliamHolden?
Why didn't he be?
Why?
What was it?
I mean, he's every bit as goodlooking as William Holden was.
I don't understand whathappened.
And apparently he leftHollywood not long after this
film for World War II and hecame back and he had difficulty
(22:08):
reestablishing himself as aleading man.
So he did a lot of supportingroles and then went on TV.
But he's just beautiful.
He plays Zan's love interest.
He's the one guy who speakstruth to power.
He does not like the Hubbardsand he lets them know about it.
And finally yes and finally wehave the wonderful Herbert
(22:30):
Marshall who plays Horaceno-transcript movie.
(23:10):
So you're you can be forgivenfor not noticing that, but
there's a very interesting storyabout that which we'll get to
when we talk about the deathscene.
But what's fascinating aboutherbert marshall is is he
managed to not hide it becausepeople knew it, but I don't
think audiences did, because heplayed against.
He wasn't always in awheelchair, he wasn't in a
wheelchair in the letter.
He played against these topactresses throughout the 30s and
(23:35):
was really a really big starand, as I said, he worked with
Bette Davis a couple times Highin demand.
But he managed to hide the factthat he had a prosthetic leg
for most of his career.
Brad Shreve (23:45):
And that's pretty amazing, considering that was a
time period when, if you had ahandicap of any kind, you pretty
much were cast aside.
Yeah, you look at Roosevelt.
Tony Maietta (23:54):
Well, he wasn't.
He wasn't exactly cast aside.
Brad Shreve (23:56):
No, no, he did.
I mean, he did yeah.
Tony Maietta (24:06):
He didn't.
Yeah, we talked a little bitabout that, about the statue.
So, anyway, these people cametogether to make this incredible
film under the direction of oneof my favorite, one of my very
favorite directors, williamWyler.
We talked about him when wetalked about the Heiress and, um
, I want to talk about therelationship between betty davis
and william weiler, because Itruly believe it's what makes
this film so great is the factthat these two, when they work
(24:28):
together, just brought out thebest in each other you want to
talk a little bit more about.
So what happens is is that shebrings horace back to alabama to
get the money to invest in themill and he refuses.
So she's like I knew this wasgoing to happen.
What am I going to do now?
(24:50):
So the brothers aren't surewhat to do either, because if
they don't get her third, thenno one's going to be able to
invest.
And then the little simp, leo,who is Oscar's son, Regina's
nephew, played by the wonderfulDandaria, who has this great mop
of blonde hair which he'salways flipping back.
(25:11):
He's just such a littlenamby-pamby simp.
I love Leo.
He works in Horace's bank intown and he mentions that Horace
has all of these bonds in hissafe deposit box and he never
checks it.
He says, maybe twice a year hecomes in and can you imagine
having all that money and neverchecking it?
I mean, I sound a little bitlike Ron Carey there, but, boss,
(25:35):
that gives the brothers an idea.
You know what would happen,suppose, if somebody borrowed
those bonds?
Do you think you'd ever findout about it?
And Leo goes, he never check.
And so they trick Leo.
They didn't really trick him,but they bully him into stealing
the bonds from Horace's safedeposit box and then they can
(25:57):
therefore invest in the millwithout Regina, in the mill
without regina, and of coursenobody knows about this.
And regina can't figure out howit was.
They were able to invest itwithout her.
So she's her, she, hersuspicions are up right away.
But it happens.
And then what happens afterthat?
Brad Shreve (26:17):
brad, first of all, it was odd to me because I'm
like herbert marshall had secondbilling and he is not in this
film.
Where is this man?
But when he shows up halfwaythrough he obviously has a very
significant role, and I can'tremember why.
But he wants to go to the bankto look at his bonds, which he
never looked at before he needsto go get his some insurance
papers oh out of the safedeposit, it's not about the
(26:40):
bonds, that's.
Tony Maietta (26:42):
He has to look in the box.
He almost leaves.
He has to look in the box, yep,and he leaves without noticing
them.
And then, for some reason,because Leo was acting strangely
, very, you know, because hejust can't, he's like freaking
out because Horace is in thebank, because he's not supposed
to come, he never comes in andlooks at him.
(27:05):
Um, he's freaking out, whichmakes horace suspicious that
leo's freaking out.
So he goes back and he looksand notices the bonds are gone
you only had like fifteenthousand dollars, I think worth
yeah, and he puts one and twotogether and he realizes what's
happened.
so he goes back to the house andhe tells regina that they, leo
and her brothers, stole theirbonds.
Well, regina's all ready topersecute them, you know, or to
(27:29):
blackmail them into giving themthe share.
And not only does horace say no, we're not going to invest in
this mill, she, he, says we arenot going to prosecute them.
You are going to say you lentthem the bonds.
So she's getting screwed twiceby Horace.
(27:51):
So what happens later?
Then?
It's a little justified forthis because she's getting
thwarted twice now by herhusband and you're just like why
are you punishing this woman?
But when you see therelationship it's clear she's a
cold hearted bitch.
She's a cold hearted bitch, shewants to be in that mill.
(28:11):
So what happens when he refusesto prosecute the brothers,
oscar and Ben?
Brad Shreve (28:21):
Oh, he starts to have a heart attack and she is
just sitting there, just sittingthere waiting for him to die.
Tony Maietta (28:28):
He is yes, he has a heart attack because we've
already established he has avery weak heart and he has this
medicine he always takes and inscenes prior when he would need
his medicine, she'd run and getit for him.
You know this wasn't her plan,but she's now defeated and what
happens is is that and we'lltalk about this a little bit
more with soft focus and deepfocus is that he, they're having
(28:50):
a battle and that in this scenethis is one of the deep focus
scenes and this is why, when youwant an example of a scene
that's shot in deep focus, inthe foreground, herbert Marshall
all you see his face and BettyDavis is behind him, in sharp
focus, and she's just going offtelling him that he was a small
(29:10):
town clerk when she met him.
He's still a small town clerk,he hasn't done anything with his
life.
And she says you know, eventhough they're pretty well off,
she said you know, that's when Ibegan to hate you, when I
realized you weren't going totake me out of here.
I'm paraphrasing and finally,the coup de grace is I didn't
even.
I got to the point where Ihated when you touched me, or
(29:31):
something like that.
Brad Shreve (29:32):
But she also.
He mentioned that how much heloved her.
At one time I think she said Ilove you, but I and I don't
remember the actual wording, butsomething of the nature of I
don't have any respect for you,she said.
Tony Maietta (29:48):
She said I thought you were going to bring me the
moon.
You were, and again you weresmall town clerk.
Then you haven't changed.
And so she keeps giving thesedaggers to him.
But the real dagger is I hated.
I got to the point where Ihated, where you even touched me
.
And when she says that she'svery sharply in the back but
she's her's to the camera, he'sin the front and that's when he
has his first attack.
So what's important?
She's saying these things, buthe's in the foreground, really
(30:09):
sharp, and he has the attack.
And then the camera moves andshe goes and sits down on the
sofa and he goes to reach forhis medicine and he spills it.
And she looks at him and theylook at at each other and she
realizes he needs his medicine,but he's just spilled it.
(30:31):
He has more medicine upstairsin his bedroom.
Go get it.
And she does not move, she justlooks at him.
And then he looks at her andyou realize, oh, she's going to
let him die.
Brad Shreve (30:41):
So, evil.
Tony Maietta (30:42):
And so he struggles to get up and he goes
behind her, he staggers behindher on the sofa and he goes
around and he goes out of camerarange.
And now this is just a regularuh shot.
This is not deep focus, becausehe starts to climb up the
stairs and she is just sittingthere, she is not moving her
(31:05):
head, she is not blinking, hermouth is tight because she's
listening.
She's listening for thecollapse and he's going up the
staircase a William Wylerstaircase and as he goes up the
staircase he collapses.
And that's when she gets up andyells for help because she
(31:25):
knows he's just had his heartattack.
He's still barely alive, butshe knows that he's going to die
.
There is in any kind of WilliamWellman battlefield when you're
working with William Weiler,and that's a perfect example.
(31:46):
This woman has just committedmurder by not lifting a finger.
Brad Shreve (31:49):
Yeah, you know, I really liked it when he showed
up into town and she didn't actlike she hated him, she just
acted like she didn't care forhim.
There was no love.
I mean, he showed up, she hadhis room ready.
You know, as it was common atthe time they had separate
bedrooms.
She's like make up the bedroomand he shows up and she hasn't
seen him in ages because he'dbeen in baltimore, and she just
kind of walks over and gives hima quick peck and right, hello,
(32:11):
hello, welcome back home.
But here is where you saw thecontempt right because he's just
gone too far.
Tony Maietta (32:18):
He's now like I said.
He's he's screwed her overtwice now and this is what this.
Now she sees her way out.
So when he dies, of course it'sup to her.
Now what's she going to do ifhe dies?
And she even says that to herbrothers.
She says after he's upstairsand he's not, he hasn't got long
to live.
And she says the brothers comebecause they're all concerned
about him.
And she says you know, ifhorace lives, then I will
(32:40):
continue to say that you lent methe bonds.
But the doctor doesn't thinkHorace is going to live, and so
not only does she demand a third, she wants even more.
And it's just so amazingbecause they look at her like
what have we been dealing withhere?
I'm like you should know whatyour sister's like.
You've been dealing with heryour entire life.
And she said you should know mewell enough to know that I
(33:09):
don't ask for anything I don'texpect I'll be able to get.
And that's it exactly.
So she is primed, she is like acobra.
And so when that scene happens,I just want to mention one of
the great reasons that scene,the death scene on the staircase
, is so amazing is because it isin regular focus, so the
background is out of focus whenhe's climbing the stairs,
because that's not what'simportant.
What's important is bettydavis's face what's important is
(33:29):
watching her not move a muscle.
I think ellen burston said that, talking about that scene.
She said you know she holds.
She holds her mouth so tightbecause she doesn't want any of
the milk of human kindness toseep out of it, and it's so true
.
And then he collapses.
So that's number one why it'simportant, because all that
really matters is her face.
(33:50):
The second thing the reasonthat shot is not in deep focus
and is blurred in the back isbecause it's not Herbert
Marshall walking up the stairs.
Herbert Marshall had aprosthetic leg.
Oh, that's right.
He couldn't do that, so theyhad to get a stand in to do it.
So it makes perfect sense.
It works artistically for thescene.
That's what's so genius aboutWyler it works artistically,
(34:14):
it's brilliant, and it's alsopractically brilliant.
So there was an artistic reasonand a practical reason for it.
Brad Shreve (34:19):
Yeah, her face was the most important thing at that
moment and a practical reasonfor it.
Tony Maietta (34:22):
Yeah, her face was the most important thing at
that moment.
Yes, yes, and you talked alittle bit about her makeup in
this, and this was so whentalking about Betty Davis and
William Wyler I don't, we coulddo a whole podcast on those two.
She loved Wyler.
She considered Wyler thegreatest director of all time.
He led her to her second Oscarfor Jezebel because Wyler was as
(34:44):
much a perfectionist as she was.
She loved the fact.
You know she wanted to do moretakes than he did.
We said he was 40 take Willie.
You know she could have been 50take Davis.
She was that much perfectionistand he met her toe to toe
because he could control her.
And she talks about when theywere first working on Jezebel
how he would yell at her.
If you know, you move your headanymore and I'm going to throw
(35:06):
a chain around your neck and sheloved it.
She like ate it up.
So she loved this man.
They actually had a love affair.
They almost got married.
That ended.
Jezebel was a huge hit.
Then they did the lettertogether and they got along very
well on the letter to anothergreat Davis villainous
performance.
They argued over the take ofone line at the end of the
(35:29):
letter.
She did it his way, but shenever let him forget it that she
did it his way and if she could, she said she would have gone
back and redone it in a minute.
But on Little Foxes they cameto heads, and that's what's
really sad, because he didn'tunderstand why she was playing
it this way.
He said you've got to besensual, you've got to have some
charm.
(35:49):
This woman has a great charm.
That's how she gets what shewants.
And she said no, no, no, no.
This woman is hard, this womanis cold.
This woman is tight.
She came to the set with thatwhite makeup, that kabuki makeup
, and a very small mouth thatbarely opened.
Her hair was piled high on herhead.
She looks like a mask.
She looks like, yeah, she'salmost like performance art,
(36:12):
don't you think?
Yes, yeah.
And so they fought continually,and that's what's so sad about
this.
They fought, battled andbattled and battled on the set.
Betty Davis actually, for oneof the only times in her career,
walked off a set.
She was so upset and so angryJust once.
And then she came back and shedid it, but she did it her way.
The sad thing is that these twopeople who truly brought out
(36:34):
the best in each other, neverworked together again.
They remained friends and theyrespected each other greatly,
but it was really to BetteDavis's detriment, because I
also think it was Alan Bursonwho said after that Bette Davis
rarely showed so much by doingso little, because what Wyler
(36:56):
did was rein her in to hersimplest, and that's why it's an
astounding performance.
Brad Shreve (37:01):
I really lean more towards Wyler.
My favorite character in thisfilm is Herbert Marshall as
Horace, because he was the mostlikable person.
He's the only one that I feltreally the boyfriend.
What's his name again?
David David yes.
He was a good guy too, butHorace was a much bigger
character.
I liked him a lot.
He had scruples, he had morals.
Tony Maietta (37:22):
Yes, he does Well.
Yeah, he's the moral core ofthe movie.
Brad Shreve (37:24):
But my really favorite character, as far as
being complex, was her brotherBen, who was played by Charles
Dingle.
Tony Maietta (37:31):
Yes.
Brad Shreve (37:34):
Ben was my most lovable character.
In the beginning.
He was annoying her, but he wastalking about.
The people that didn't surviveafter the war were those that
thought they were aristocrats,and the ones that knew that they
had to adapt and change werethe ones that survived and
that's why their family wassuccessful.
I'm like boy.
This guy's real.
I like this guy, only to findout later that he was just as
unscrupulous as a sister.
Tony Maietta (37:53):
He's probably the most unscrupulous yes, of all of
them, yes, but he was a likableguy and so that's what I like.
Brad Shreve (37:59):
That's why I liked him.
He was was more complex.
He had charm.
I think she would have been.
Yes, he was charming and he wasfun to be around.
So I kind of feel like hischaracter was more realistic.
That's not to pull away fromwhat Betty did, because she did
a great job, but if I look atthe story realistically, I think
that character would have beenmore successful if she acted
more like her brother.
Tony Maietta (38:19):
Right.
Well, the great thing aboutCharles Ding dingle about ben is
he has a great deal of humor,yeah, and charm, and that's yeah
, that's what weiler wanted outof davis.
But davis davis said no, thiswoman, this woman is, is
ruthless.
This woman is cold.
She does get, I'm sorry, butshe does give regina little
touches of humor.
You know, there's that momentwhere Alexandra's playing the
(38:42):
piano with Aunt Bertie and Ithink it's Oscar is making
noises, and she looks over athim and she kicks him, yes, with
her foot, she kicks his footwith her foot and then she
realizes everyone saw her andshe laughs.
Brad Shreve (38:54):
Yes.
Tony Maietta (38:56):
I mean, there are moments of laughter and moments
of charm and moments oflightness, but it's not nearly
as much as Wyler wanted.
Yeah, the reason she wore thatmask was because she wanted to
hide any unintentional humanemotion.
She really saw this woman asthat hard candy.
You know, she did that.
Well, she did, she did, andthat's why I feel like I feel
(39:17):
this is her greatest performance, her greatest villainous
performance.
But some of these otherperformances, what did you think
of Birdie?
Of Patricia Collins?
She broke my heart.
Brad Shreve (39:31):
Patricia played it so well, but I, oh my God, I
ached for Birdie.
I just so wanted to give her ahug.
Tony Maietta (39:38):
Birdie is Regina's sister-in-law.
She's Oscar's wife and it'sexplained in the play that she
comes from a wealthy family.
She's always talking.
She's a little bit like BlancheDubois she always talks about
her old life at her oldplantation of the way oscar
(40:04):
marries her.
For the money to, to get herfamily money, because the
hubbards come from nothing andthey're slowly, they're pulling
their way up.
Uh, he, and then he mistreatsher horribly and she begins to
drink.
She's an alcoholic, so she'skind of she's in a haze most of
the time and she has very, verysad, very pathetic scenes.
Leo is their son and sheconfesses at one point that she
doesn't like leo because it'snot a horrible thing to say.
I don't like my own son, butit's heartbreaking and it's
(40:27):
touching.
And leo's such a moron youunderstand why he's just such a
simp he's.
Brad Shreve (40:32):
He's the puppet of these people and they're just
playing him it's also obviousthat birdie had very little
input in how he was being raisedanyway.
I mean, oscar was socontrolling.
Tony Maietta (40:41):
Yes, exactly, exactly.
So what happens is that TeresaWright's character, zan, the
daughter who's very close to herfather and who was devastated
by her father being sick afterHorace, does indeed die.
Alexandra, who's been talkingto David, kind of been like
flirting with David and kind ofbeing courted by David, the
(41:04):
luscious Richard Carlson and hesays to her you know, you start
paying attention, start usingyour head as to what's going on.
He's trying to educate her andshe's getting smarter and she
starts asking questions, and oneof the questions she asked her
mother is why was daddy lying onthe stairs?
And it just stuns Regina and shemoves on, she brushes it off,
(41:27):
she brushes it off.
And then Oscar, I'm sorry.
And then Ben says at the end,when he realizes he's been
beaten and Regina is going toget what she wants, he goes.
You know, someday it'll be myturn, another day will be my
turn.
I asked myself, like what Zansaid, why was a man with a heart
condition climbing a staircase,a heart condition climbing a
(41:51):
staircase?
He goes.
Maybe someday I'll figure itout.
And they all laugh about it.
But you know it's not over.
It's not over.
But Alexandra is finally wisingup to who her mother really is.
And so what's devastating nowis that Regina has done all of
this allegedly for her daughterwell, for herself too, obviously
, but to better her daughter'slife.
And what ends up happening isthe exact opposite.
(42:13):
Alexander realizes what'shappened.
She doesn't know exactly.
She doesn't know that hermother let her father die, but
she knows something happenedbecause she saw her mother say
to her father at one pointduring their fights I'm waiting
for you to die, which is astunning moment.
So she realizes something'sgoing on here.
So she ends up at the end whenAlexandra says why don't you
(42:36):
come up?
Or when Betty Davis says toTeresa Wright because Horace has
just died up in the bedroom andthey don't sleep in the same
bedroom.
But she says why don't you comeand spend the night in my room
tonight, zan, we have a nicetalk, we haven't had a talk in a
long time.
And Alexandra looks at him andgoes why, Mama, are you afraid?
(42:57):
And the look between them,because now she knows and she
leaves.
She leaves at the end.
So Betty Davis has done all ofthis at the end end, only to be
completely abandoned by the oneperson that if she cared for
anybody, she cared for herdaughter and that's the end of
it yeah, I want to go through myfeelings throughout this movie,
(43:18):
but I will say the end.
Brad Shreve (43:20):
I was initially disappointed but actually ended
up being better than what Ithought and I'll tell you later
why.
I was disappointed because Ithought it was going to be
almost kind of like a heistmovie Not really, but that's for
lack of a better term.
But this was a very moralending because Betty Davis the
quote and I know it's from theBible for what is a man profited
(43:41):
if he shall gain the wholeworld and lose his own soul?
She wins everything she wants inthe end, but she loses
everything Exactly, yes.
Yes, she loses everythingExactly, yes.
Yes, that's very true.
She's empty inside.
She got what she wanted andshe's empty, careful, what you
wish for.
Tony Maietta (43:55):
Yep, you know, yeah, she wins and she loses
everything.
Brad Shreve (44:01):
Because I had been looking forward through the
whole movie for in the end thereto be this twist and she ended
up with nothing.
So that didn't happen.
I was initially like damn.
And then I'm like no.
Look at her, and just herlooking out the window at her
daughter.
Tony Maietta (44:13):
Yeah, her daughter leaves with David.
They run off in the rain.
Brad Shreve (44:16):
This is more satisfying, yeah.
Tony Maietta (44:17):
They run off in the rain and she watches them go
away and she slowly steps backand the curtain goes across her
face and like a ghost.
Yeah, such a brilliant shot.
Greg toland, wow thatphotography.
The photography is is stunning.
Greg toland, um pioneered thatstyle of photography with orson
welles in citizen kane and, uhgod, what an incredible,
(44:39):
incredible ending incrediblefilm.
So, uh, let's talk a little bitabout how this movie performed.
Yes, there was a greatcontroversy about the fact that
Betty was playing a part thatTallulah Bank had made famous.
However, that's what happenedand the movie was a hit.
Do you have stats on the movie,brad?
I have some.
Yes, okay.
Brad Shreve (45:00):
Well, as you said, the movie came out in 1941,
produced by Samuel Goldwyn.
It was an RKO Pictures movie.
It was nominated for nineAcademy Awards.
It won none, but one of those,as you were talking about the
cinematography, which was greatfor this film because the set
design was amazing, the outfits,costumes were amazing, and it
(45:22):
was nominated for those.
Yeah, but unfortunately it didnot win.
It also was nominated for BestPicture, best Director, best
Actress, best was she?
Best Supporting Actress?
Tony Maietta (45:30):
Yes, Teresa Wright was Best Supporting Actress.
Brad Shreve (45:32):
Yeah, best Supporting Actress Rotten
Tomatoes.
The critics gave it 100%, whichis very rare.
The audience score is 87%.
Now the box office numbers.
I'm going to give these andyou're going to have to tell me
if I'm wrong, because it wasreally hard to find numbers on
this.
So I'm wrong, because it wasreally hard to find numbers on
this.
So I'm kind of having to go alittle off of what I found on
Wikipedia, which I usually tryto find backup on.
(45:53):
What I had is that this moviemade, or the box office take,
was 2.1 million worldwide, butit lost 140,000 because of the
way the rights were set up andthe way the money was
distributed.
I'm sure, I'm sure.
So it wasn't a flop in thesense that it wasn't a big film.
It was a flop in the sense thatthe finances weren't handled
(46:13):
well.
Tony Maietta (46:14):
Yes, yes, well, it's another success Destime.
You know what I mean.
It's one of those films whichwas certainly a financial,
certainly an artistic success.
I mean again, nine Oscars,nominations and, yes, no wins.
And it actually the littlefoxes held the record for the
(46:34):
most nominations with no winsuntil 1977, with the turning
point, and the turning point got11 nominations and no wins.
So that's not really a recordyou want to hold, um, but here's
the way.
Here's what I feel about it.
I feel feel that forget aboutAll About Eve, forget about
whatever happened to Baby Jane.
This really should have beenBetty Davis's third Oscar.
It was her fourth consecutiveOscar nomination.
(46:57):
She went on to get six more.
She had 10 by the time she cameto Baby Jane.
Never won another one.
And so you're like well, whydidn't she win?
I look at that and I look ather competition that year.
And it was not the strongestyear, Okay, but it was a very
interesting year.
This was the year that JoanFontaine beat her sister, olivia
(47:22):
de Havilland, for best actress.
So for that reason alone, it'sthe only time siblings have ever
been nominated against eachother so far.
And for that reason alone, Imean talk about a feud, talk
about the de Havilland sistersfeud is fun to talk about.
So it was.
Greer Garson was also nominatedBetty Joan Fontaine Olivia de
(47:46):
Havilland, and did I say Greer Garson?
I don't remember I was anywayanyway, joan fontaine won for a
very I mean, come on a very weakperformance.
She's not, she's never been, agreat actress.
She's not a great actress, shewon for suspicion.
What's interesting about thatis it's the only time the
(48:08):
Hitchcock actress actually wonAnybody won an Oscar for being
in a Hitchcock film.
So you have to think so whydidn't Betty win against this
kind of weak competition she hadthat year?
Well, there's the TallulahBankhead controversy, because
some people were still holdingthe belief that Tallulah
Bankhead should have won.
But here's something even moreinteresting In 1941, in January
(48:30):
of this year, betty wasnominated.
Not nominated, betty was electedpresident of the Academy of
Motion Picture Arts and Sciencesthe very first woman to be
elected president and, of course, being Betty Davis, she went in
with her guns blazing.
She wanted to make all thesechanges and she wanted to take
the award ceremony out of thefancy banquet because it was
(48:53):
wartime.
She thought it would be betterif it was in a theater, in more
sedate.
She wanted to do all thesechanges and the Academy's like
oh, no, no, no, no, no, no,you're just a figurehead.
You're not going to make allthese changes and, being Betty
Davis, of course she got pissedoff and she resigned.
So there could be that residualresentment for her for
(49:18):
resigning from the Academy, inwhich PS then, a few months
later, the Academy did make herchanges that she says, yes, but
she was already gone.
They took the award ceremonyinto a theater, out of a banquet
hall.
So I really believe, despitethe controversy with the
performance, despite thedifferent way she played it,
that she really should have wonthat Oscar for this performance.
Brad Shreve (49:39):
I would agree.
I won't agree with the way shechose to play it, but I can't
argue that she played itbeautifully.
That was just a artistic choice.
You can say that's right orwrong.
Tony Maietta (49:49):
It was a strong artistic choice and,
interestingly, you should saythat because you know the Little
Foxes, being a great play, hashad many revivals.
There was a revival withElizabeth Taylor in 1981, which
was very much closer to TallulahBankett, as you can imagine.
Elizabeth Taylor, a verysensual woman, I mean, come on
(50:11):
Elizabeth Taylor.
So she went back to that modelof Regina as a woman who uses
her wiles, who uses her charm,who uses her lethal charm to get
what she wants.
And then that was in 81.
And then it was very recentlyrevived and this is so fabulous
and I cannot believe I didn'tsee this.
I kick myself all the time.
(50:31):
Not that long ago, maybe 10, 15years ago, I didn't look up the
date it was revived for alimited run with Cynthia Nixon
and Laura Linney.
Oh, two actresses I love.
Yeah, they played Regina andBertie.
They would rotate roles.
So one night Cynthia Nixonplayed Regina and Laura Linney
(50:54):
played Birdie, and then the nextnight Laura Linney played
Regina and Cynthia Nixon playedBirdie.
Oh, my God, isn't that fabulous.
Why didn't I see that?
What is wrong with me?
That would have been awesome.
I mean, that's worth a planetrip to New York, definitely.
And you'd have to go bothnights.
You would have to go bothnights.
That's how they got you.
They got you to buy two ticketsand I believe Laura Linney was
(51:16):
nominated for a Tony.
I don't think Cynthia Nixon was, but for which part?
Who knows?
It could have been for Birdie,it could have been for Regina.
So anyway, yeah, that's um gosh,that's the little foxes brad.
We.
We talked a lot about it.
I think it's uh, I think we dida good job on it.
I I'm I'm very pleased with uh,with what we our take on uh on
(51:37):
this great film but let me tellyou my emotions during this film
, please do.
Brad Shreve (51:42):
I thought, wow, this is a beautiful production
and I'm hating every second ofit.
And the reason why, first ofall, was, as I said, the the
portrayal of the Southern family, which to me was the one thing
I didn't like about being in theSouth, dealing with those
stereotypes where I said it wasall about appearances.
For example, a friend of minein North Carolina you had what
are called the ABC stores, whichonly alcohol can be sold
(52:04):
through a government-owned store.
You cannot go to thesupermarket or the pharmacy or
whatever to buy alcohol, and Ibelieve that's still true.
I can't say for sure becauseit's been ages since I've been
there.
So each town has its own ABCstore.
Well, there was a little towncalled Liberty where a friend of
mine lived and her father waswell-known in that town.
And there was another littletown called Ramsewer.
(52:26):
Well, all the people in Libertywould go to the Ramseur ABC
store because they didn't wantanybody in Liberty to see them
buying alcohol.
And guess what all the peoplein Ramseur would do?
And that whole lifestyle, justanyway, drives me crazy.
The other thing I didn't likeand later I was proven wrong,
but initially it was shown veryracist that the Negro knew their
(52:50):
place and they were happy there.
That was really, I mean, okay,they all knew their place.
That was a survival mode.
You know, the blacks knew theirplace, but the fact that they
all were portrayed as beinghappy, it's one of the
complaints people had about Songin the South.
Oh yeah, complaints people hadabout song in the south.
Oh yeah, was then that changed?
and you saw in the middle whenthey're having the conversation
(53:12):
with the father and, um, hername, uh, xander, xander
alexandra and addy and addy the,the main housekeeper, in there,
and they start really talkingabout how the poor blacks have
been taken advantage of and andbecause they're ignorant, they,
they don't know that they'realways being taken advantage of
and and because they're ignorant, they, they don't know that
they're always being takenadvantage of because they don't
have the education, etc.
(53:32):
Then I'm like, okay, so nowwe're getting real here, and and
so then I said I liked it a lotbetter.
I'm like, okay, we're not doingthis whole portrayal where
everybody was happy, their wholeworld revolved around what were
their masters and really stillare today.
Just, they have a differenttitle, right, but they liked it
(53:52):
there.
But then we found out realitywasn't.
That wasn't the case.
Didn't get really deep into itat all, wasn't the point of this
movie, but it gave me justenough that I realized, okay,
that's not what they're sayinghere, okay.
And then I did like the ending.
I was expecting it to be a turnon betty dav Davis, that she
would end up penniless and Iwould be happy.
(54:13):
It didn't work out that way,but she did lose everything she
had inside of her soul and thatwas very satisfying.
Tony Maietta (54:20):
Yes, it is.
I think it's a satisfyingending.
Brad Shreve (54:23):
My emotions went different ways throughout this
film, and all of it werenecessarily not the only.
The beginning was the only timeI was really disappointed, but
then it all changed for me.
Tony Maietta (54:31):
Yeah, I know, and I urge people who only know
Betty Davis from whateverhappened to baby Jane or from
her later roles even all aboutEve, do yourself a favor, please
, please, go back into herforties work.
Go watch now Voyager.
Go watch dark victory, God.
Go watch this film, LittleFoxes.
You know there's a reason whythis woman was the greatest film
(54:51):
actress of her generation andshe was.
She was.
Hepburn is another ilk, but shetruly was.
You can't deny with the factthat she certainly was the most
nominated and the most awarded.
So go watch her in thisphenomenal performance.
I guarantee you it will staywith you for a long time.
Brad Shreve (55:09):
I will agree 100%.
She was tremendous.
Tony Maietta (55:12):
Well, that's the little foxes.
So I guess there's just onething left to say, brad, and I
don't want to say it.
So let's not say goodbye, let'ssay Barbara Stanwyck that was
the actress that I forgot, whowas nominated that year.
Barbara Stanwyck, ball of Fire.
I love that movie.
Brad Shreve (55:32):
Goodbye, everybody, goodbye.
So, brad, in the 40s there was a very famous
movie tagline for a Bette Davisfilm and the tagline was nobody
is as good as Betty when she'sbad.
Betty Davis's 1949 film Beyondthe Forest which was the movie
(00:25):
that ended her career, by theway and it has that very famous
line what a dump in it.
But I feel like nobody's asgood as Betty when she's bad
could not be more appropriatefor the film we are talking
about today.
Brad Shreve (00:42):
You are 100% correct.
I like characters occasionallythat you know characters are
supposed to have gray areas, butoccasionally I like a character
that just has no redeemingqualities whatsoever.
Tony Maietta (00:58):
And that is Betty in the Little Foxes.
Well, I'm going to give you anargument about no redeeming
qualities when we get to that,but yeah, it is truly.
In my opinion, it is hergreatest performance of her
halcyon years.
I'm not talking about all aboutEve and her later career and
whatever happened to baby Jane.
I'm talking about her primeWarner Brothers years, which is
(01:19):
like 38 to 49.
And ironically, she didn't makethe Little Foxes for Warner
Brothers.
She was on Loan Out one of hervery, very few loan outs to
Samuel Goldwyn.
But I feel like it is not onlyher greatest evil performance
but her greatest performanceperiod and that's why I'm really
(01:40):
happy and pleased that we'retalking about this today.
It's going to be a real treatto talk about Betty and to talk
about this film, which I thinkis fabulous.
Brad Shreve (01:50):
And I got to agree with you.
I never know where we're goingto go with Betty, and boy, she
was vile.
I just hated her guts in thisfilm, as we were supposed to,
and I know she did everythingshe could to make this person
evil, including the makeup, soshe did a good job in that sense
.
Tony Maietta (02:10):
It's funny because people would say to Betty
people would always talk abouther villain characters.
What's it like to play evilcharacters all the time?
And Betty always pointed out Iplayed just as many heroines she
goes.
It's the evil that peopleremember and she's absolutely
right.
If you look through herfilmography, she plays just as
many heroines.
In fact, probably her twogreatest villains of the 40s the
(02:32):
Letter and the Little Foxes,both, by the way, directed by
William Wyler are bookended byher two greatest heroines, by
Dark Victory Judith Traherne inDark Victory and Charlotte Vale
in Now Voyager.
So she was right, she did playjust as many heroines as she
played bad girls, but peoplelove the bad girls.
Brad Shreve (02:51):
You hear actors say they like to play the bad guy.
Tony Maietta (02:55):
They're more interesting, and Betty's pointed
that out.
Brad Shreve (02:58):
I think of Keanu Reeves, who people say is the
nicest actor in Hollywood,though I refuse to believe he's
nicer than my celebrity crush,paul Rudd.
Yet even though he's this niceguy on John Wick, which he is
supposed to be the good guy, buthe's still blowing people away
right and left.
Tony Maietta (03:18):
Well, they get it all out of their system so they
can be nice as real people.
Brad Shreve (03:21):
Exactly but.
Tony Maietta (03:22):
I think we talked a little bit about this when we
talked about the heiress, and sothey can be nice as real people
, exactly, but I think we talkeda little bit about this when we
talked about the heiress and Isaid it's very dangerous for an
actor to make a judgment on hischaracter, that he's good or bad
, because as people, we don'tjudge ourselves as being good or
bad.
We're just trying to getthrough the day.
We're just trying to do thebest we can to get through the
day and get our goals achieved.
So when Betty, or when anyactor worth his salt approaches
(03:43):
a character that other peoplejudge as bad or villainy, that
actor is not judging thatcharacter.
You can't.
You are just simply playing apart and you're playing the
character's motivations to gettheir goals achieved Right,
because generally speaking, thebad guy doesn't know he's bad.
Never, no, unless.
He's a psychopath and hedoesn't even care.
Brad Shreve (04:05):
Yeah, but actually it's funny because just
yesterday I heard a discussionabout narcissism and they said
one of the reasons whynarcissism is next to impossible
to cure is the narcissism.
No matter what you do, youcan't make them understand that
what they do is wrong where?
Tony Maietta (04:20):
but regina giddens , uh, who is the main character
in the Little Foxes played byBetty Davis, is, yes, she is one
of the screen's greatvillainesses, but again, she
doesn't consider herself avillainess, she is just trying
to do the best she can becauseshe's in a society we're talking
about Alabama in the early1900s.
(04:41):
In the early 1900s she isconfined in this early 20th
century society where only menhad power.
Men were the only legal heirs.
Women were completely dependentupon men and all Regina is
trying to do is build a betterlife for herself and her
daughter, which I always thinkis a valid, which is a point you
(05:02):
want to point that out whenpeople say she's totally evil.
She's doing a lot of this forher daughter and she wants her
daughter to have a better life,which is what makes the end of
the Little Foxes so devastating,and we'll get to that.
But Regina's just trying to dothe best she can and
unfortunately she's in a societywhere women have no power, so
she has to take the power bywhatever means necessary, which
(05:27):
she does.
Brad Shreve (05:29):
And I'm going to tell you right now I have a
cheat sheet because I looked atIMDb, I looked at Wikipedia.
None of them really helped me,because I had a hard time with
this film.
There's a lot of characters andyou were introduced to all of
them at the same time.
So I went to chat GPT and Isaid tell me who these
characters are and what theirrelationship is to each other.
So I have, because I couldn'tkeep the name straight.
(05:51):
So I have a little cheat sheetright in front of me.
Makes sense, it makes sense.
Actually it was nice and neatfor me, much easier than what
were on the other places.
Tony Maietta (05:59):
No, you're right, there are a lot of characters
and it's very and when we talkabout the story of the Little
Foxes, it is incredibly complexand can be a bit convoluted to
follow the twists and the turns.
Yes, because it's based on aplay by Lillian Hellman and the
play is incredibly complex.
So obviously the film is goingto be incredibly complex.
Brad Shreve (06:21):
And before we get into the story itself, I'm going
to tell you my journey withthis was my first thought as I,
as it began, I'm like, wow, thisis a beautifully done movie and
I hate it, and I'll tell you.
When we get into it, I'll tellyou I hate it.
Then I got so, oh, I reallylike this.
And then at the end I'm like,oh, this was satisfying yes, it
(06:42):
is.
Tony Maietta (06:43):
It is beautifully shot, it is phenomenally acted.
It is incredibly directed by,as I said, mr William Wyler and
starring Miss Betty Davis.
But before it became a film, itwas a play, and the film the
Little Foxes is based on the1939 play by Lillian Hellman
that starred Tallulah Bankhead,which was an enormous success,
(07:07):
and Bankhead's performance asRegina became legendary.
It ran for 410 performances andBankhead played every single
one of them.
That's what you love aboutthese old.
You know they never miss aperformance.
They would go on that stagewith 106 fever.
(07:27):
She didn't miss a single one ofthem.
Hellman called this play anangry comedy, which I always
thought was very interesting.
We talk about a lot of filmswhich people think are horror
films or very dramatic films,and their creators refer to them
as comedies, which is reallyinteresting.
Brad Shreve (07:50):
And the title the Little Foxeses comes from the
bible.
Did you know that?
Did you check that out?
Tony Maietta (07:53):
I did and I'm not poetic enough that I get the
references.
Brad Shreve (07:54):
Well, I'll tell you what.
My ex was a poet and we.
That's one area we didn'tconnect the title.
Tony Maietta (07:59):
The little foxes comes from the bible and the
quote is take us the foxes.
The little foxes who spoil thevines, for our vines have tender
grapes, um, so that's where thelittle foxes.
So basically, what they'resaying is the foxes are villains
, the foxes are predators, andthat's who these people are the
family, regina's family, thehubbards regina's name is Regina
(08:24):
Hubbard Giddens.
The Hubbards are the foxes, thepredators, out to take
advantage of everybody and takeeverything they can.
And the title actually is kindof funny.
The title the Little Foxes wassuggested by Dorothy Parker, who
was a friend of LillianHellman's and actually
contributed to the screenplaywhen it was eventually made into
(08:45):
a film.
Do you want to give us I knowit's complex and I will help you
out when you need it Can youtell us a little bit about what
the plot is?
What's the Little Foxes about?
And don't feel like you've gotto get really complicated
because we'll talk as we go on.
Brad Shreve (08:58):
Yeah, it's really just a big scheme to make money.
It is a Southern family thatI'm generalizing here, so if
you're sent from the South don'tget too upset with me.
But having lived a good portionof my life in the South and
North Carolina, it's all aboutappearances, so a lot of times
what looks like the woman is notin control when really she is.
Very frequently.
So.
Anyway, it is a scheme to makemoney by getting a mill put into
(09:23):
the town to produce the cotton,and they are working with an
investor from the north I thinkit's from New York.
Tony Maietta (09:30):
Correct Chicago.
Brad Shreve (09:32):
Okay, chicago, you are correct, and he is going to
put the factory down there sothat they can have the cotton
right into the factory.
Tony Maietta (09:39):
Right.
Brad Shreve (09:40):
And so, betty.
Tony Maietta (09:41):
Davis Cheap labor.
Brad Shreve (09:42):
Cheap labor, cheap labor.
Yes, I know that, for my dad'scompany moved to the South for
the same reason.
It wasn't his company he owned,by the way.
Anyway, so, betty Davis and hertwo brothers her husband is ill
, so at the beginning of themovie he is not in the picture.
He has heart problems.
And so the movie begins.
She and her two brothers areputting together a scheme to
(10:04):
invest into getting this millbuilt so that they can basically
make millions.
Right, right and that's how thestory begins.
Tony Maietta (10:14):
That's how it begins.
So they each say they willinvest a third into this mill to
get it going.
Well, it's no problem for thebrothers.
Why?
Because they're men, they havetheir money.
But Betty Regina, aka Regina,has to turn to her husband for
the money.
And her husband is HoraceGiddens and yes, you're right,
(10:34):
he is not there.
He didn't win.
The play starts.
Horace is out of town.
Horace is poorly.
He's feeling poorly.
They don't really, we don'treally know why Horace is ill,
but he has a very, very badheart condition.
They've been out of eachother's lives for quite a while.
So Regina and Horace is veryhighly principled.
(10:55):
He third so that they couldinvest in this mill.
And she sends her daughter, whois Alexandra Giddens and she's
(11:16):
played by the wonderful TeresaWright, to go and fetch the
father and bring him back.
And that's the way the play andthe film start.
And what's interesting aboutthis and we'll go more into the
plot as it goes on but what'sreally interesting about the
Little Fox is, as I said,tallulah Bankhead played every
single performance.
Tallulah Bankhead, for aBroadway actress, was so closely
(11:38):
identified with the part ofRegina Giddens that she was
actually on the cover of Timemagazine.
She not only played everyperformance, she toured with it.
So you'd think, wow, here's awoman who's not only brilliant
in this role but is so closelyidentified with it.
She's on the cover of TimeMagazine.
Don't you think they'd cast herin the film?
Brad Shreve (11:59):
But I think you're going to tell me Betty Davis had
something to do with this.
Tony Maietta (12:02):
Well, yes and no, we know how Hollywood works.
Unfortunately, TallulahBankhead, who had made films in
the early 30s.
so she was not a stranger tofilms.
She made films in the 20s and30s.
She had not made a film in 10years and she just wasn't a big
enough box office name.
And when Sam Goldwyn bought theLittle Foxes from Lillian
(12:26):
Hellman he brought back almostall of the original Broadway
cast except for Regina Giddens,because he wanted to reunite
William Wyler with Betty Davis.
William Wyler and Betty Davishad done Jezebel together.
Betty won her first Oscar orsecond Oscar, the Letter, the
(12:46):
year before another brilliantperformance and he wanted to
bring them back again because hethought it was a perfect pair.
And actually, in allobjectivity, betty Davis is
perfect for the role of ReginaGiddens.
However, she is kind ofstealing food out of the mouth
of Tallulah Bankhead.
So you know that's nothing new.
These two went back and forthfor years.
(13:07):
You know Betty Davis andTallulah Bankhead were
constantly.
Betty Davis was constantlytaking Tallulah Bankhead's roles
and doing them on film.
She did it with Dark Victory.
She kind of did it with Jezebel.
Miriam Hopkins was on Broadwayand Jezebel, but Bankhead played
her.
She did it with Jezebel.
Miriam Hopkins was on Broadwayand Jezebel, but Bankhead played
her.
She did it with Little Foxes Ina couple years down the road
(13:29):
here.
She's going to do a pretty goodBankhead impression in All
About Eve, so these two werealways at each other.
But the point is that, yes,it's a shame that Tallulah was
not able to recreate herBroadway role, but it's not like
they went out there and castsomebody totally inappropriate.
Betty Davis was kind of born toplay this role, don't you?
Brad Shreve (13:49):
think, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I will say.
I'm looking at a picture ofTallulah Bankhead right now from
1939, and from an appearancestandpoint she is much more of a
close to Teresa Wright beingthe daughter.
Well, yeah, she is a morebeautiful woman, even though she
has a very stern look, becauseit's from the play that I'm
looking at.
But no, bette Davis was awesomein this.
Tony Maietta (14:11):
She was just awesome, she's yes, and Bette
was very hesitant to do this.
Okay, she said to Sam Goldwynand I would love to, I could do
a whole podcast about SamGoldwyn because he's a wonderful
Hollywood guy.
He's just one of those mythichollywood moguls.
He was a true, true, trueindependent.
Okay, no, maybe we'll do a samgoldwyn month.
(14:32):
We oh there, you.
That's a great idea, so I'm notgoing to go into it.
Sam goldwyn, originallyoriginally called schmule
goldfish, born in warsaw, likeall these moguls, they were born
with like this, this crazy,they were born within I don't
know how many miles of each.
Like all these moguls they wereborn with like this, this crazy
, they were born within I don'tknow how many miles of each
other.
All these moguls Louis B, mayerand Zucor and Goldman Goldman
all born together and all endedup in Hollywood as the moguls.
(14:54):
Anyway, uh, goldman was a truepioneer though Goldman was, and
his partners were responsiblefor the first full length
feature film shot in Hollywoodin 1914 called the Squaw man.
So when I say pioneer, he was apioneer, but he was also truly
independent because he keptgetting screwed over by his
partners.
So he went totally independentin the early 30s.
(15:15):
And what was great about Goldwynwas.
I don't know how much you knowabout Goldwyn, but he was a real
character in the fact that hewas known for his malapropisms.
They were called Goldwynisms.
He would say things like anoral agreement isn't worth the
paper it's written on, oranother one that he said that
was very funny was when peoplewould all try to get together
(15:35):
he'd go include me out.
So he was for a guy who had nota great command of the English
language.
He was very.
He had good taste and one ofthe things he did he paid top
dollar for literary propertiesfrom the beginning of his career
and he was funding these allhimself.
Okay, he went to the Bank ofAmerica, took out a loan,
(15:57):
mortgaged his house, made amovie, hoped the movie made a
profit so he could pay the bankand then went on to the next one
.
I mean, this is how this guyworks, so a true independent.
So when he purchased the littlefoxes, he needed a box office
star.
He needed star insurance andthere was nobody bigger in 1941
than Betty Davis.
She was the biggest female boxoffice star in the world.
(16:20):
So what happened was thatGoldwyn wrangled with Warner
Brothers to get her services tohave Warner Brothers loan and I
think I believe he traded.
He did have a Gary Cooper owedGoldwyn a film, so he traded
Gary Cooper for Betty Davis.
He also paid Warner Brothers$300,000 for Betty Davis.
(16:40):
Now Betty Davis didn't get$300,000.
She got her regular salary.
This is one of the shittythings about the studio system
was a studio would loan you outand make $300,000 off of you,
but you'd still make your weeklysalary.
But Betty worked it out so shegot a percentage of that
$300,000 because she was Betty.
Brad Shreve (16:58):
Davis.
Tony Maietta (16:59):
Anyway, they obtained the services of Betty
Davis, as I said.
She said please let Tallulahplay this.
Tallulah should play this.
I don't want to do this.
She claimed she begged Golden,which I kind of doubt.
She begged him.
That doesn't sound like Betty,but she was smart.
She knew that she could comeoff badly here by taking this
(17:22):
part away from Bankhead, aftershe already took away Dark
Victory from Bankhead.
But golden refused and he saidlook, betty, if you're not going
to play at someone else's andnot bankhead.
So betty was like all right,then I might as well do it.
And she also had theconsolation of her favorite
director, william weiler, toguide her through this film.
Brad Shreve (17:38):
And Wyler did a great job.
Everybody did a great job.
Tony Maietta (17:42):
So what happened was that Betty, against her
wishes, went and saw Tallulahplay this role, play the Little
Foxes.
Later in her life Betty claimedthat the only way to play it
was the way Tallulah played it,which is how she played it and
everything else I've read andeverything else that Wyler has
said is exactly not true.
(18:03):
Tallulah played the part ofRegina.
She's a Southern charmer.
You get a lot more flies withhoney than you do with vinegar
and I imagine the way Tallulahplayed it was very sensual, very
syrupy, very sweet, you know,on the surface, and then she's a
(18:24):
viper underneath and Bettydoesn't play it that way at all.
Betty's very harsh, betty'svery cold, betty's very, I guess
, if you think about it, likethe difference between syrup,
sweet syrup and hard candy.
So Tallulah is the sweet syrup,just oozing charm and
sensuality, and Betty is toughas ice cracked hard candy.
Brad Shreve (18:48):
And you know, now that you mentioned that the
whole time I'm watching Betty inthis film, her character was
unlikable from the very firstsecond and it's like nobody
would want to sit with thiswoman and she was controlling
the environment and just alwayshad this very sour look on her
face and I do believe it wouldhave been a little more
realistic.
The best con artists are theones that are lovable and
adoring.
(19:08):
Yeah, so I mean, she's notreally a con artist, but she
certainly has to get by it.
She's a schemer, she's a, she'sa conniver.
So it would have been probablya little more realistic if she
was more likable, but it it'sstill.
Her performance was so I'm notgoing to say it ruined the film
at all.
Tony Maietta (19:22):
Yeah, I want to talk more about her performance
later on, but I just want totalk about the rest of this cast
.
So, as I said, goldwyn sparedno expense when he would make
these films.
He had done Doddsworth, he'ddone Aerosmith, he'd done
Wuthering Heights.
He was known for his greatliterary adaptions.
Later on he would do Guys andDolls.
He would do the Best Years ofOur Lives.
(19:44):
So, alongside Davis and Wyler,which were pretty pricey talents
, greg Toland cinematography.
Now, for those of you who don'tknow who Greg Toland is, greg
Toland was a pioneer of deepfocus photography, which
basically means the foregroundand the middle ground and the
background are all in sharpfocus.
(20:05):
You can see everything andthere are scenes in the little
foxes which I want to talk aboutlater, where that is so clearly
evident.
It's a brilliant use of deepfocus.
Um, for the costumes, ori kellywe talked about ori kelly,
mythic costume designer.
He did the costumes.
Lillian Hellman wrote herscreenplay, wrote her version of
(20:27):
the screenplay with help fromDorothy Parker and Alan Campbell
.
So that ain't too shabby Tohave Dorothy Parker work on your
screenplay with you.
The music was by Meredith theMusic man, wilson.
Obviously this was before theMusic man, but Meredith Wilson
did the music and five membersof the original Broadway cast
(20:47):
repeated their roles PatriciaCollins, who played Bertie, dan
Durea, who plays Leo, thesniveling little simp Leo, who I
love.
Charles Dingle plays Ben, oneof her brothers.
Carl Benton Reed plays herother brother.
Oscar dingle plays ben, one ofher brothers.
Carl benton reed plays herother brother, oscar.
And john marriott is cowell theservant.
Did you say herbert marshall?
(21:08):
I didn't get to him yet.
Okay, sorry was he in the play.
He was not in the play, okay, no.
In.
In addition to the originalcast members theresa wright, who
was making her film debut,plays alexandra giddens, their
daughter, betty davis's uh,regina giddens daughter zan.
Brad Shreve (21:21):
Uh, she Davis' daughter.
Tony Maietta (21:22):
Regina Giddens' daughter Zan.
She got an Oscar nomination forthis.
She later went on to win anOscar for the following year for
Mrs Miniver and she was also inthe Best Years of Our Lives.
Shadow of a Doubt, pride of theEye.
She had a great career in the40s.
Teresa Wright she's wonderful.
The yummy Richard Carlson whoplays David, who's just so
(21:46):
handsome.
I'm always thrown off by howhandsome Richard Carlson is.
I'm like what happened to thisguy?
Why didn't he become WilliamHolden?
Why didn't he be?
Why?
What was it?
I mean, he's every bit as goodlooking as William Holden was.
I don't understand whathappened.
And apparently he leftHollywood not long after this
film for World War II and hecame back and he had difficulty
(22:08):
reestablishing himself as aleading man.
So he did a lot of supportingroles and then went on TV.
But he's just beautiful.
He plays Zan's love interest.
He's the one guy who speakstruth to power.
He does not like the Hubbardsand he lets them know about it.
And finally yes and finally wehave the wonderful Herbert
(22:30):
Marshall who plays Horaceno-transcript movie.
(23:10):
So you're you can be forgivenfor not noticing that, but
there's a very interesting storyabout that which we'll get to
when we talk about the deathscene.
But what's fascinating aboutherbert marshall is is he
managed to not hide it becausepeople knew it, but I don't
think audiences did, because heplayed against.
He wasn't always in awheelchair, he wasn't in a
wheelchair in the letter.
He played against these topactresses throughout the 30s and
(23:35):
was really a really big starand, as I said, he worked with
Bette Davis a couple times Highin demand.
But he managed to hide the factthat he had a prosthetic leg
for most of his career.
Brad Shreve (23:45):
And that's pretty amazing, considering that was a
time period when, if you had ahandicap of any kind, you pretty
much were cast aside.
Yeah, you look at Roosevelt.
Tony Maietta (23:54):
Well, he wasn't.
He wasn't exactly cast aside.
Brad Shreve (23:56):
No, no, he did.
I mean, he did yeah.
Tony Maietta (24:06):
He didn't.
Yeah, we talked a little bitabout that, about the statue.
So, anyway, these people cametogether to make this incredible
film under the direction of oneof my favorite, one of my very
favorite directors, williamWyler.
We talked about him when wetalked about the Heiress and, um
, I want to talk about therelationship between betty davis
and william weiler, because Itruly believe it's what makes
this film so great is the factthat these two, when they work
(24:28):
together, just brought out thebest in each other you want to
talk a little bit more about.
So what happens is is that shebrings horace back to alabama to
get the money to invest in themill and he refuses.
So she's like I knew this wasgoing to happen.
What am I going to do now?
(24:50):
So the brothers aren't surewhat to do either, because if
they don't get her third, thenno one's going to be able to
invest.
And then the little simp, leo,who is Oscar's son, Regina's
nephew, played by the wonderfulDandaria, who has this great mop
of blonde hair which he'salways flipping back.
(25:11):
He's just such a littlenamby-pamby simp.
I love Leo.
He works in Horace's bank intown and he mentions that Horace
has all of these bonds in hissafe deposit box and he never
checks it.
He says, maybe twice a year hecomes in and can you imagine
having all that money and neverchecking it?
I mean, I sound a little bitlike Ron Carey there, but, boss,
(25:35):
that gives the brothers an idea.
You know what would happen,suppose, if somebody borrowed
those bonds?
Do you think you'd ever findout about it?
And Leo goes, he never check.
And so they trick Leo.
They didn't really trick him,but they bully him into stealing
the bonds from Horace's safedeposit box and then they can
(25:57):
therefore invest in the millwithout Regina, in the mill
without regina, and of coursenobody knows about this.
And regina can't figure out howit was.
They were able to invest itwithout her.
So she's her, she, hersuspicions are up right away.
But it happens.
And then what happens afterthat?
Brad Shreve (26:17):
brad, first of all, it was odd to me because I'm
like herbert marshall had secondbilling and he is not in this
film.
Where is this man?
But when he shows up halfwaythrough he obviously has a very
significant role, and I can'tremember why.
But he wants to go to the bankto look at his bonds, which he
never looked at before he needsto go get his some insurance
papers oh out of the safedeposit, it's not about the
(26:40):
bonds, that's.
Tony Maietta (26:42):
He has to look in the box.
He almost leaves.
He has to look in the box, yep,and he leaves without noticing
them.
And then, for some reason,because Leo was acting strangely
, very, you know, because hejust can't, he's like freaking
out because Horace is in thebank, because he's not supposed
to come, he never comes in andlooks at him.
(27:05):
Um, he's freaking out, whichmakes horace suspicious that
leo's freaking out.
So he goes back and he looksand notices the bonds are gone
you only had like fifteenthousand dollars, I think worth
yeah, and he puts one and twotogether and he realizes what's
happened.
so he goes back to the house andhe tells regina that they, leo
and her brothers, stole theirbonds.
Well, regina's all ready topersecute them, you know, or to
(27:29):
blackmail them into giving themthe share.
And not only does horace say no, we're not going to invest in
this mill, she, he, says we arenot going to prosecute them.
You are going to say you lentthem the bonds.
So she's getting screwed twiceby Horace.
(27:51):
So what happens later?
Then?
It's a little justified forthis because she's getting
thwarted twice now by herhusband and you're just like why
are you punishing this woman?
But when you see therelationship it's clear she's a
cold hearted bitch.
She's a cold hearted bitch, shewants to be in that mill.
(28:11):
So what happens when he refusesto prosecute the brothers,
oscar and Ben?
Brad Shreve (28:21):
Oh, he starts to have a heart attack and she is
just sitting there, just sittingthere waiting for him to die.
Tony Maietta (28:28):
He is yes, he has a heart attack because we've
already established he has avery weak heart and he has this
medicine he always takes and inscenes prior when he would need
his medicine, she'd run and getit for him.
You know this wasn't her plan,but she's now defeated and what
happens is is that and we'lltalk about this a little bit
more with soft focus and deepfocus is that he, they're having
(28:50):
a battle and that in this scenethis is one of the deep focus
scenes and this is why, when youwant an example of a scene
that's shot in deep focus, inthe foreground, herbert Marshall
all you see his face and BettyDavis is behind him, in sharp
focus, and she's just going offtelling him that he was a small
(29:10):
town clerk when she met him.
He's still a small town clerk,he hasn't done anything with his
life.
And she says you know, eventhough they're pretty well off,
she said you know, that's when Ibegan to hate you, when I
realized you weren't going totake me out of here.
I'm paraphrasing and finally,the coup de grace is I didn't
even.
I got to the point where Ihated when you touched me, or
(29:31):
something like that.
Brad Shreve (29:32):
But she also.
He mentioned that how much heloved her.
At one time I think she said Ilove you, but I and I don't
remember the actual wording, butsomething of the nature of I
don't have any respect for you,she said.
Tony Maietta (29:48):
She said I thought you were going to bring me the
moon.
You were, and again you weresmall town clerk.
Then you haven't changed.
And so she keeps giving thesedaggers to him.
But the real dagger is I hated.
I got to the point where Ihated, where you even touched me
.
And when she says that she'svery sharply in the back but
she's her's to the camera, he'sin the front and that's when he
has his first attack.
So what's important?
She's saying these things, buthe's in the foreground, really
(30:09):
sharp, and he has the attack.
And then the camera moves andshe goes and sits down on the
sofa and he goes to reach forhis medicine and he spills it.
And she looks at him and theylook at at each other and she
realizes he needs his medicine,but he's just spilled it.
(30:31):
He has more medicine upstairsin his bedroom.
Go get it.
And she does not move, she justlooks at him.
And then he looks at her andyou realize, oh, she's going to
let him die.
Brad Shreve (30:41):
So, evil.
Tony Maietta (30:42):
And so he struggles to get up and he goes
behind her, he staggers behindher on the sofa and he goes
around and he goes out of camerarange.
And now this is just a regularuh shot.
This is not deep focus, becausehe starts to climb up the
stairs and she is just sittingthere, she is not moving her
(31:05):
head, she is not blinking, hermouth is tight because she's
listening.
She's listening for thecollapse and he's going up the
staircase a William Wylerstaircase and as he goes up the
staircase he collapses.
And that's when she gets up andyells for help because she
(31:25):
knows he's just had his heartattack.
He's still barely alive, butshe knows that he's going to die
.
There is in any kind of WilliamWellman battlefield when you're
working with William Weiler,and that's a perfect example.
(31:46):
This woman has just committedmurder by not lifting a finger.
Brad Shreve (31:49):
Yeah, you know, I really liked it when he showed
up into town and she didn't actlike she hated him, she just
acted like she didn't care forhim.
There was no love.
I mean, he showed up, she hadhis room ready.
You know, as it was common atthe time they had separate
bedrooms.
She's like make up the bedroomand he shows up and she hasn't
seen him in ages because he'dbeen in baltimore, and she just
kind of walks over and gives hima quick peck and right, hello,
(32:11):
hello, welcome back home.
But here is where you saw thecontempt right because he's just
gone too far.
Tony Maietta (32:18):
He's now like I said.
He's he's screwed her overtwice now and this is what this.
Now she sees her way out.
So when he dies, of course it'sup to her.
Now what's she going to do ifhe dies?
And she even says that to herbrothers.
She says after he's upstairsand he's not, he hasn't got long
to live.
And she says the brothers comebecause they're all concerned
about him.
And she says you know, ifhorace lives, then I will
(32:40):
continue to say that you lent methe bonds.
But the doctor doesn't thinkHorace is going to live, and so
not only does she demand a third, she wants even more.
And it's just so amazingbecause they look at her like
what have we been dealing withhere?
I'm like you should know whatyour sister's like.
You've been dealing with heryour entire life.
And she said you should know mewell enough to know that I
(33:09):
don't ask for anything I don'texpect I'll be able to get.
And that's it exactly.
So she is primed, she is like acobra.
And so when that scene happens,I just want to mention one of
the great reasons that scene,the death scene on the staircase
, is so amazing is because it isin regular focus, so the
background is out of focus whenhe's climbing the stairs,
because that's not what'simportant.
What's important is bettydavis's face what's important is
(33:29):
watching her not move a muscle.
I think ellen burston said that, talking about that scene.
She said you know she holds.
She holds her mouth so tightbecause she doesn't want any of
the milk of human kindness toseep out of it, and it's so true
.
And then he collapses.
So that's number one why it'simportant, because all that
really matters is her face.
(33:50):
The second thing the reasonthat shot is not in deep focus
and is blurred in the back isbecause it's not Herbert
Marshall walking up the stairs.
Herbert Marshall had aprosthetic leg.
Oh, that's right.
He couldn't do that, so theyhad to get a stand in to do it.
So it makes perfect sense.
It works artistically for thescene.
That's what's so genius aboutWyler it works artistically,
(34:14):
it's brilliant, and it's alsopractically brilliant.
So there was an artistic reasonand a practical reason for it.
Brad Shreve (34:19):
Yeah, her face was the most important thing at that
moment and a practical reasonfor it.
Tony Maietta (34:22):
Yeah, her face was the most important thing at
that moment.
Yes, yes, and you talked alittle bit about her makeup in
this, and this was so whentalking about Betty Davis and
William Wyler I don't, we coulddo a whole podcast on those two.
She loved Wyler.
She considered Wyler thegreatest director of all time.
He led her to her second Oscarfor Jezebel because Wyler was as
(34:44):
much a perfectionist as she was.
She loved the fact.
You know she wanted to do moretakes than he did.
We said he was 40 take Willie.
You know she could have been 50take Davis.
She was that much perfectionistand he met her toe to toe
because he could control her.
And she talks about when theywere first working on Jezebel
how he would yell at her.
If you know, you move your headanymore and I'm going to throw
(35:06):
a chain around your neck and sheloved it.
She like ate it up.
So she loved this man.
They actually had a love affair.
They almost got married.
That ended.
Jezebel was a huge hit.
Then they did the lettertogether and they got along very
well on the letter to anothergreat Davis villainous
performance.
They argued over the take ofone line at the end of the
(35:29):
letter.
She did it his way, but shenever let him forget it that she
did it his way and if she could, she said she would have gone
back and redone it in a minute.
But on Little Foxes they cameto heads, and that's what's
really sad, because he didn'tunderstand why she was playing
it this way.
He said you've got to besensual, you've got to have some
charm.
(35:49):
This woman has a great charm.
That's how she gets what shewants.
And she said no, no, no, no.
This woman is hard, this womanis cold.
This woman is tight.
She came to the set with thatwhite makeup, that kabuki makeup
, and a very small mouth thatbarely opened.
Her hair was piled high on herhead.
She looks like a mask.
She looks like, yeah, she'salmost like performance art,
(36:12):
don't you think?
Yes, yeah.
And so they fought continually,and that's what's so sad about
this.
They fought, battled andbattled and battled on the set.
Betty Davis actually, for oneof the only times in her career,
walked off a set.
She was so upset and so angryJust once.
And then she came back and shedid it, but she did it her way.
The sad thing is that these twopeople who truly brought out
(36:34):
the best in each other, neverworked together again.
They remained friends and theyrespected each other greatly,
but it was really to BetteDavis's detriment, because I
also think it was Alan Bursonwho said after that Bette Davis
rarely showed so much by doingso little, because what Wyler
(36:56):
did was rein her in to hersimplest, and that's why it's an
astounding performance.
Brad Shreve (37:01):
I really lean more towards Wyler.
My favorite character in thisfilm is Herbert Marshall as
Horace, because he was the mostlikable person.
He's the only one that I feltreally the boyfriend.
What's his name again?
David David yes.
He was a good guy too, butHorace was a much bigger
character.
I liked him a lot.
He had scruples, he had morals.
Tony Maietta (37:22):
Yes, he does Well.
Yeah, he's the moral core ofthe movie.
Brad Shreve (37:24):
But my really favorite character, as far as
being complex, was her brotherBen, who was played by Charles
Dingle.
Tony Maietta (37:31):
Yes.
Brad Shreve (37:34):
Ben was my most lovable character.
In the beginning.
He was annoying her, but he wastalking about.
The people that didn't surviveafter the war were those that
thought they were aristocrats,and the ones that knew that they
had to adapt and change werethe ones that survived and
that's why their family wassuccessful.
I'm like boy.
This guy's real.
I like this guy, only to findout later that he was just as
unscrupulous as a sister.
Tony Maietta (37:53):
He's probably the most unscrupulous yes, of all of
them, yes, but he was a likableguy and so that's what I like.
Brad Shreve (37:59):
That's why I liked him.
He was was more complex.
He had charm.
I think she would have been.
Yes, he was charming and he wasfun to be around.
So I kind of feel like hischaracter was more realistic.
That's not to pull away fromwhat Betty did, because she did
a great job, but if I look atthe story realistically, I think
that character would have beenmore successful if she acted
more like her brother.
Tony Maietta (38:19):
Right.
Well, the great thing aboutCharles Ding dingle about ben is
he has a great deal of humor,yeah, and charm, and that's yeah
, that's what weiler wanted outof davis.
But davis davis said no, thiswoman, this woman is, is
ruthless.
This woman is cold.
She does get, I'm sorry, butshe does give regina little
touches of humor.
You know, there's that momentwhere Alexandra's playing the
(38:42):
piano with Aunt Bertie and Ithink it's Oscar is making
noises, and she looks over athim and she kicks him, yes, with
her foot, she kicks his footwith her foot and then she
realizes everyone saw her andshe laughs.
Brad Shreve (38:54):
Yes.
Tony Maietta (38:56):
I mean, there are moments of laughter and moments
of charm and moments oflightness, but it's not nearly
as much as Wyler wanted.
Yeah, the reason she wore thatmask was because she wanted to
hide any unintentional humanemotion.
She really saw this woman asthat hard candy.
You know, she did that.
Well, she did, she did, andthat's why I feel like I feel
(39:17):
this is her greatest performance, her greatest villainous
performance.
But some of these otherperformances, what did you think
of Birdie?
Of Patricia Collins?
She broke my heart.
Brad Shreve (39:31):
Patricia played it so well, but I, oh my God, I
ached for Birdie.
I just so wanted to give her ahug.
Tony Maietta (39:38):
Birdie is Regina's sister-in-law.
She's Oscar's wife and it'sexplained in the play that she
comes from a wealthy family.
She's always talking.
She's a little bit like BlancheDubois she always talks about
her old life at her oldplantation of the way oscar
(40:04):
marries her.
For the money to, to get herfamily money, because the
hubbards come from nothing andthey're slowly, they're pulling
their way up.
Uh, he, and then he mistreatsher horribly and she begins to
drink.
She's an alcoholic, so she'skind of she's in a haze most of
the time and she has very, verysad, very pathetic scenes.
Leo is their son and sheconfesses at one point that she
doesn't like leo because it'snot a horrible thing to say.
I don't like my own son, butit's heartbreaking and it's
(40:27):
touching.
And leo's such a moron youunderstand why he's just such a
simp he's.
Brad Shreve (40:32):
He's the puppet of these people and they're just
playing him it's also obviousthat birdie had very little
input in how he was being raisedanyway.
I mean, oscar was socontrolling.
Tony Maietta (40:41):
Yes, exactly, exactly.
So what happens is that TeresaWright's character, zan, the
daughter who's very close to herfather and who was devastated
by her father being sick afterHorace, does indeed die.
Alexandra, who's been talkingto David, kind of been like
flirting with David and kind ofbeing courted by David, the
(41:04):
luscious Richard Carlson and hesays to her you know, you start
paying attention, start usingyour head as to what's going on.
He's trying to educate her andshe's getting smarter and she
starts asking questions, and oneof the questions she asked her
mother is why was daddy lying onthe stairs?
And it just stuns Regina and shemoves on, she brushes it off,
(41:27):
she brushes it off.
And then Oscar, I'm sorry.
And then Ben says at the end,when he realizes he's been
beaten and Regina is going toget what she wants, he goes.
You know, someday it'll be myturn, another day will be my
turn.
I asked myself, like what Zansaid, why was a man with a heart
condition climbing a staircase,a heart condition climbing a
(41:51):
staircase?
He goes.
Maybe someday I'll figure itout.
And they all laugh about it.
But you know it's not over.
It's not over.
But Alexandra is finally wisingup to who her mother really is.
And so what's devastating nowis that Regina has done all of
this allegedly for her daughterwell, for herself too, obviously
, but to better her daughter'slife.
And what ends up happening isthe exact opposite.
(42:13):
Alexander realizes what'shappened.
She doesn't know exactly.
She doesn't know that hermother let her father die, but
she knows something happenedbecause she saw her mother say
to her father at one pointduring their fights I'm waiting
for you to die, which is astunning moment.
So she realizes something'sgoing on here.
So she ends up at the end whenAlexandra says why don't you
(42:36):
come up?
Or when Betty Davis says toTeresa Wright because Horace has
just died up in the bedroom andthey don't sleep in the same
bedroom.
But she says why don't you comeand spend the night in my room
tonight, zan, we have a nicetalk, we haven't had a talk in a
long time.
And Alexandra looks at him andgoes why, Mama, are you afraid?
(42:57):
And the look between them,because now she knows and she
leaves.
She leaves at the end.
So Betty Davis has done all ofthis at the end end, only to be
completely abandoned by the oneperson that if she cared for
anybody, she cared for herdaughter and that's the end of
it yeah, I want to go through myfeelings throughout this movie,
(43:18):
but I will say the end.
Brad Shreve (43:20):
I was initially disappointed but actually ended
up being better than what Ithought and I'll tell you later
why.
I was disappointed because Ithought it was going to be
almost kind of like a heistmovie Not really, but that's for
lack of a better term.
But this was a very moralending because Betty Davis the
quote and I know it's from theBible for what is a man profited
(43:41):
if he shall gain the wholeworld and lose his own soul?
She wins everything she wants inthe end, but she loses
everything Exactly, yes.
Yes, she loses everythingExactly, yes.
Yes, that's very true.
She's empty inside.
She got what she wanted andshe's empty, careful, what you
wish for.
Tony Maietta (43:55):
Yep, you know, yeah, she wins and she loses
everything.
Brad Shreve (44:01):
Because I had been looking forward through the
whole movie for in the end thereto be this twist and she ended
up with nothing.
So that didn't happen.
I was initially like damn.
And then I'm like no.
Look at her, and just herlooking out the window at her
daughter.
Tony Maietta (44:13):
Yeah, her daughter leaves with David.
They run off in the rain.
Brad Shreve (44:16):
This is more satisfying, yeah.
Tony Maietta (44:17):
They run off in the rain and she watches them go
away and she slowly steps backand the curtain goes across her
face and like a ghost.
Yeah, such a brilliant shot.
Greg toland, wow thatphotography.
The photography is is stunning.
Greg toland, um pioneered thatstyle of photography with orson
welles in citizen kane and, uhgod, what an incredible,
(44:39):
incredible ending incrediblefilm.
So, uh, let's talk a little bitabout how this movie performed.
Yes, there was a greatcontroversy about the fact that
Betty was playing a part thatTallulah Bank had made famous.
However, that's what happenedand the movie was a hit.
Do you have stats on the movie,brad?
I have some.
Yes, okay.
Brad Shreve (45:00):
Well, as you said, the movie came out in 1941,
produced by Samuel Goldwyn.
It was an RKO Pictures movie.
It was nominated for nineAcademy Awards.
It won none, but one of those,as you were talking about the
cinematography, which was greatfor this film because the set
design was amazing, the outfits,costumes were amazing, and it
(45:22):
was nominated for those.
Yeah, but unfortunately it didnot win.
It also was nominated for BestPicture, best Director, best
Actress, best was she?
Best Supporting Actress?
Tony Maietta (45:30):
Yes, Teresa Wright was Best Supporting Actress.
Brad Shreve (45:32):
Yeah, best Supporting Actress Rotten
Tomatoes.
The critics gave it 100%, whichis very rare.
The audience score is 87%.
Now the box office numbers.
I'm going to give these andyou're going to have to tell me
if I'm wrong, because it wasreally hard to find numbers on
this.
So I'm wrong, because it wasreally hard to find numbers on
this.
So I'm kind of having to go alittle off of what I found on
Wikipedia, which I usually tryto find backup on.
(45:53):
What I had is that this moviemade, or the box office take,
was 2.1 million worldwide, butit lost 140,000 because of the
way the rights were set up andthe way the money was
distributed.
I'm sure, I'm sure.
So it wasn't a flop in thesense that it wasn't a big film.
It was a flop in the sense thatthe finances weren't handled
(46:13):
well.
Tony Maietta (46:14):
Yes, yes, well, it's another success Destime.
You know what I mean.
It's one of those films whichwas certainly a financial,
certainly an artistic success.
I mean again, nine Oscars,nominations and, yes, no wins.
And it actually the littlefoxes held the record for the
(46:34):
most nominations with no winsuntil 1977, with the turning
point, and the turning point got11 nominations and no wins.
So that's not really a recordyou want to hold, um, but here's
the way.
Here's what I feel about it.
I feel feel that forget aboutAll About Eve, forget about
whatever happened to Baby Jane.
This really should have beenBetty Davis's third Oscar.
It was her fourth consecutiveOscar nomination.
(46:57):
She went on to get six more.
She had 10 by the time she cameto Baby Jane.
Never won another one.
And so you're like well, whydidn't she win?
I look at that and I look ather competition that year.
And it was not the strongestyear, Okay, but it was a very
interesting year.
This was the year that JoanFontaine beat her sister, olivia
(47:22):
de Havilland, for best actress.
So for that reason alone, it'sthe only time siblings have ever
been nominated against eachother so far.
And for that reason alone, Imean talk about a feud, talk
about the de Havilland sistersfeud is fun to talk about.
So it was.
Greer Garson was also nominatedBetty Joan Fontaine Olivia de
(47:46):
Havilland, and did I say Greer Garson?
I don't remember I was anywayanyway, joan fontaine won for a
very I mean, come on a very weakperformance.
She's not, she's never been, agreat actress.
She's not a great actress, shewon for suspicion.
What's interesting about thatis it's the only time the
(48:08):
Hitchcock actress actually wonAnybody won an Oscar for being
in a Hitchcock film.
So you have to think so whydidn't Betty win against this
kind of weak competition she hadthat year?
Well, there's the TallulahBankhead controversy, because
some people were still holdingthe belief that Tallulah
Bankhead should have won.
But here's something even moreinteresting In 1941, in January
(48:30):
of this year, betty wasnominated.
Not nominated, betty was electedpresident of the Academy of
Motion Picture Arts and Sciencesthe very first woman to be
elected president and, of course, being Betty Davis, she went in
with her guns blazing.
She wanted to make all thesechanges and she wanted to take
the award ceremony out of thefancy banquet because it was
(48:53):
wartime.
She thought it would be betterif it was in a theater, in more
sedate.
She wanted to do all thesechanges and the Academy's like
oh, no, no, no, no, no, no,you're just a figurehead.
You're not going to make allthese changes and, being Betty
Davis, of course she got pissedoff and she resigned.
So there could be that residualresentment for her for
(49:18):
resigning from the Academy, inwhich PS then, a few months
later, the Academy did make herchanges that she says, yes, but
she was already gone.
They took the award ceremonyinto a theater, out of a banquet
hall.
So I really believe, despitethe controversy with the
performance, despite thedifferent way she played it,
that she really should have wonthat Oscar for this performance.
Brad Shreve (49:39):
I would agree.
I won't agree with the way shechose to play it, but I can't
argue that she played itbeautifully.
That was just a artistic choice.
You can say that's right orwrong.
Tony Maietta (49:49):
It was a strong artistic choice and,
interestingly, you should saythat because you know the Little
Foxes, being a great play, hashad many revivals.
There was a revival withElizabeth Taylor in 1981, which
was very much closer to TallulahBankett, as you can imagine.
Elizabeth Taylor, a verysensual woman, I mean, come on
(50:11):
Elizabeth Taylor.
So she went back to that modelof Regina as a woman who uses
her wiles, who uses her charm,who uses her lethal charm to get
what she wants.
And then that was in 81.
And then it was very recentlyrevived and this is so fabulous
and I cannot believe I didn'tsee this.
I kick myself all the time.
(50:31):
Not that long ago, maybe 10, 15years ago, I didn't look up the
date it was revived for alimited run with Cynthia Nixon
and Laura Linney.
Oh, two actresses I love.
Yeah, they played Regina andBertie.
They would rotate roles.
So one night Cynthia Nixonplayed Regina and Laura Linney
(50:54):
played Birdie, and then the nextnight Laura Linney played
Regina and Cynthia Nixon playedBirdie.
Oh, my God, isn't that fabulous.
Why didn't I see that?
What is wrong with me?
That would have been awesome.
I mean, that's worth a planetrip to New York, definitely.
And you'd have to go bothnights.
You would have to go bothnights.
That's how they got you.
They got you to buy two ticketsand I believe Laura Linney was
(51:16):
nominated for a Tony.
I don't think Cynthia Nixon was, but for which part?
Who knows?
It could have been for Birdie,it could have been for Regina.
So anyway, yeah, that's um gosh,that's the little foxes brad.
We.
We talked a lot about it.
I think it's uh, I think we dida good job on it.
I I'm I'm very pleased with uh,with what we our take on uh on
(51:37):
this great film but let me tellyou my emotions during this film
, please do.
Brad Shreve (51:42):
I thought, wow, this is a beautiful production
and I'm hating every second ofit.
And the reason why, first ofall, was, as I said, the the
portrayal of the Southern family, which to me was the one thing
I didn't like about being in theSouth, dealing with those
stereotypes where I said it wasall about appearances.
For example, a friend of minein North Carolina you had what
are called the ABC stores, whichonly alcohol can be sold
(52:04):
through a government-owned store.
You cannot go to thesupermarket or the pharmacy or
whatever to buy alcohol, and Ibelieve that's still true.
I can't say for sure becauseit's been ages since I've been
there.
So each town has its own ABCstore.
Well, there was a little towncalled Liberty where a friend of
mine lived and her father waswell-known in that town.
And there was another littletown called Ramsewer.
(52:26):
Well, all the people in Libertywould go to the Ramseur ABC
store because they didn't wantanybody in Liberty to see them
buying alcohol.
And guess what all the peoplein Ramseur would do?
And that whole lifestyle, justanyway, drives me crazy.
The other thing I didn't likeand later I was proven wrong,
but initially it was shown veryracist that the Negro knew their
(52:50):
place and they were happy there.
That was really, I mean, okay,they all knew their place.
That was a survival mode.
You know, the blacks knew theirplace, but the fact that they
all were portrayed as beinghappy, it's one of the
complaints people had about Songin the South.
Oh yeah, complaints people hadabout song in the south.
Oh yeah, was then that changed?
and you saw in the middle whenthey're having the conversation
(53:12):
with the father and, um, hername, uh, xander, xander
alexandra and addy and addy the,the main housekeeper, in there,
and they start really talkingabout how the poor blacks have
been taken advantage of and andbecause they're ignorant, they,
they don't know that they'realways being taken advantage of
and and because they're ignorant, they, they don't know that
they're always being takenadvantage of because they don't
have the education, etc.
(53:32):
Then I'm like, okay, so nowwe're getting real here, and and
so then I said I liked it a lotbetter.
I'm like, okay, we're not doingthis whole portrayal where
everybody was happy, their wholeworld revolved around what were
their masters and really stillare today.
Just, they have a differenttitle, right, but they liked it
(53:52):
there.
But then we found out realitywasn't.
That wasn't the case.
Didn't get really deep into itat all, wasn't the point of this
movie, but it gave me justenough that I realized, okay,
that's not what they're sayinghere, okay.
And then I did like the ending.
I was expecting it to be a turnon betty dav Davis, that she
would end up penniless and Iwould be happy.
(54:13):
It didn't work out that way,but she did lose everything she
had inside of her soul and thatwas very satisfying.
Tony Maietta (54:20):
Yes, it is.
I think it's a satisfyingending.
Brad Shreve (54:23):
My emotions went different ways throughout this
film, and all of it werenecessarily not the only.
The beginning was the only timeI was really disappointed, but
then it all changed for me.
Tony Maietta (54:31):
Yeah, I know, and I urge people who only know
Betty Davis from whateverhappened to baby Jane or from
her later roles even all aboutEve, do yourself a favor, please
, please, go back into herforties work.
Go watch now Voyager.
Go watch dark victory, God.
Go watch this film, LittleFoxes.
You know there's a reason whythis woman was the greatest film
(54:51):
actress of her generation andshe was.
She was.
Hepburn is another ilk, but shetruly was.
You can't deny with the factthat she certainly was the most
nominated and the most awarded.
So go watch her in thisphenomenal performance.
I guarantee you it will staywith you for a long time.
Brad Shreve (55:09):
I will agree 100%.
She was tremendous.
Tony Maietta (55:12):
Well, that's the little foxes.
So I guess there's just onething left to say, brad, and I
don't want to say it.
So let's not say goodbye, let'ssay Barbara Stanwyck that was
the actress that I forgot, whowas nominated that year.
Barbara Stanwyck, ball of Fire.
I love that movie.
Brad Shreve (55:32):
Goodbye, everybody, goodbye.
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