Immaculate Mary: “Ordinary People” (1980)

Episode Transcript
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Clip (00:01):
Hi what do you think?
Very nice.
What's wrong?
Why don't you ask him what'swrong?
Then maybe you won't have tohear it from Carol Lazenby.
Hear what?
Dad, I quit the swim team.
What?
Carol thought I knew, Of course.

(00:22):
Why wouldn't I?
It happened over a month ago.
Why?
didn't you tell us, connie?
I don't know, I didn't think itmattered.
What do you mean?
Why wouldn't it?
matter, of course it matters?
No, that was meant for me,calvin.
What was meant for you?
It's really important to try tohurt me, isn't it?
Don't you have that backwards?
Oh, and how do I hurt you?
By embarrassing you in.
Poor Beth, she has no idea whather son is up to.

(00:42):
He lies and she believes everyword of it, I didn't lie.
You did.
You lied every time you cameinto this house at 6.30.
If it's starting all over againthe lying, the covering up, the
disappearing for hours I willnot stand for it.
I can't stand it.
I really can't.
Well, don't then Go to Europe,connie no.
Connie, the only reason shecares.
The only reason she gives a fuckelse knew about it first.
Just stop it.
No, you tell her to stop it.

(01:03):
You never tell her a goddamnthing, and I know why she never
came to the hospital.
She's busy going to goddamnspain and and goddamn portugal.
Why should she care if I'm hungup by the balls out there?
maybe this is how they sitaround and talk at the hospital,
but we're not at the hospital.
You never came to the hospitalnow you know that she did.
She had the flu and she couldn'tcome inside, but she came.

(01:23):
Yeah well, she wouldn't have hadany flu.
if Buck was in the hospital, shewould have come.
If Buck was in the hospital,buck never would have been in
the hospital.
That's enough.
That is enough.
I won't do it again.
I really won't do it.
What in hell has happened?

Tony Maietta (01:43):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve (01:46):
And I'm Brad Shreve , who's just a guy who likes
movies.

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.

And, of course, being the average guy, my
opinions are the ones thatmatter.

As does your self-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood.
Happy Mother's May, Brad.

Mother's May.

Mother's May.

You mean Mother's Day?

No, no, no Mother's May.
It's a new holiday here,exclusively on Going Hollywood,
because all month we arecelebrating mothers.

I was going to ask mothers, may what?
But mothers make movies.

Mothers, may I?
No, it's a whole month.
We're doing a whole monthlistener of mother-related films
and in some instances we meanthat literally, and in some we
mean it ironically, and that'sall I'm going to say, but today
I think we mean it literally.
Brad, for our very first one.

Yes, we do, and I want to tell you something
before we begin talking aboutthis film.
Normally I watch these filmsdays in advance.
I watch them two or three timesand I forgot we were recording
today.
I thought it was later in theweek, so I didn't watch it until
last night.

So you should be fresh.

Well, I am fresh.
But there is a movie thatMaurice will not watch.
He says it is a great film.
We're talking about Seven.
He says it's a great film butit's so disturbing he never
wants to watch it again Kind ofthe way I feel about Schindler's
List, I understand that.
Ordinary People is now on there.
Oh really, I was so pent up andso shaken by the end of the

(03:35):
film.
I almost sent you a message tosay I don't think I can do it
today.
Really, oh my God, it was thatemotional for me.

Your reaction was that strong.
Yes, wow, we're talking aboutordinary people.
By the way, we kind of buriedthe lead there.
Today's film from 1980, ourvery first film for our Mother's
May celebration this month isOrdinary People starring Donald
Sutherland, timothy hutton, juddhirsch and, yes, the mother,

(04:09):
none other than ms mary tylermoore.
I'm, I'm really kind of, uh,I'm I kind of love the fact that
it was you were so affected bythis, brad.
That's, that's kind ofwonderful, I think.
I mean, I'm sorry that you feellike you never have to watch it
again.
I'm sorry if you're goingthrough drama, but I love the
fact that this movie was soaffecting I had seen it before

(04:30):
but it was so long ago.

I remembered absolutely nothing.
I I don't know.
I must have been in a moodwhere it didn't bother me.
Who knows, maybe I was drunkokay but uh, I didn't remember
anything at all and uh, so thistime I was like so shooken up,
I'm like wow.

Well, I got to tell you my journey with
Ordinary People.
I watched it I mean, I've seenit off and on throughout the
years, of course, and I watchedit again in preparation for this
a few days ago.
But my journey, my experiencewith Ordinary People goes way
back to 1980.
Because you know how I feelabout Mary Tyler Moore, I mean
it's you know, she's just one ofmy icons, Mary Tyler Moore.

How could she not be?
She's always so bubbly andhappy and carefree.
You know you're talking about.

Mary Richards or Laura Petri.
You're not talking about MaryTyler Moore or God knows, beth
Jarrett.
No, definitely not.
You're not talking about MaryTyler Moore or God knows, beth
Jarrett, no.
So my mother uh, my real mother, um, knew how I much I love
Mary Tyler Moore when this filmcame out, and so she took me and

(05:36):
a friend to see this in thetheater because it was rated R.
So I was too young.
Yes, there was actually a timewhen I was too young to get into
an R-rated movie and I can'ttell you it was a bit awkward
sitting in the theater watchingthis R-rated film with her,
especially when they startedtalking about jerking off and

(05:59):
I'm like, oh, dear, but mostlyit makes me fuck a lot.
Yes, a lot, but mostly becauseand I know I'm not alone with
this with a lot of gay men, Ithink my mother reminded me of
two actresses.
She reminded me at times andit's very funny of Carol Burnett
and she reminded me of MaryTyler Moore, more Mary Tyler

(06:19):
Moore than anyone else, becauseyou know she had that Jackie
Kennedy, laura Petri fliphairstyle in the 60s, like so
many women did, and later shehad the long Mary Richards, you
know, locks, which was actuallya wig, and in About the Time of
Ordinary People her hair wasvery kind of much the feathered
bouffant that Mary has in thismovie.

(06:41):
So it was a little bit of a metaexperience and this movie.
So it was a little bit of ameta experience and my mother
was nowhere near as extreme asBeth Jarrett, but my mother did
have a certain reserved qualityand so when I watch Ordinary
People I recognize her in BethJarrett and vice versa.
So I have a lot that I want tosay when we talk about the

(07:04):
character of Beth Jarrett andMary Tyler Moore, how she felt
about it.
So my experience with this filmis it can be very emotional for
me because it does at timesremind me of my own mother, but
I also find it especially MaryTyler Moore gut-wrenching and
beautiful at the same time.

It is extremely gut-wrenching and I'll jump in
here because my family doesn'tlisten.
One of the reasons I did findit so difficult is I watched
this and I thought, God, I wishmy family had been that happy.
I come from a household whereyou talk about nothing.

I wish my family had been that rich.

Well, yeah, they certainly as far as money goes.
They were not ordinary people.

Well, I was going to say that now the title
Ordinary People is not ironic.
It looks ironic now, but whenit was written it was not meant
as an ironic comment.
Robert Redford's idea was thesewere ordinary people and I want
to say, despite the reputationit has now it's yeah, these

(08:10):
lifestyles are far from ordinary.
I mean, we have incrediblyaffluent people living in this
gorgeous house in this wonderfulNorth Shore Chicago
neighborhood.
It's maybe we should call itaspirational.

No, anyway, I'm not going to talk about I'm going
to read you a uh review by acritic that didn't like this
movie, and I'm only going to dothis because the critics love
this movie, right, but in the atthe time, at the time, and as I
was looking at the reviews, acouple of them that were bad,
one pumped, jumped out at me andI normally ignore them, but it
was funny.
So pauline kale, I think that'show you pronounce her last name

(08:45):
yes it is yes, with the newyorker.
She said the movie is just assanitized as the fantasy of
upper middle class life it setsout to expose and it's just as
empty and orderly, to kind ofput a pin on what you were just
talking about you know know what?

Pauline the pill kale, I can't.
I would do three podcasts onPauline Kael.
I can't.
Pauline Kael, very problematicwoman, but anyway, sometimes she
but she was also very funny andvery biting.
But yeah, I mean, no, those arevalid criticisms of the time,
but you were right in that.
You know, as I don't think I'mgiving any spoiler alerts here,

(09:26):
we should probably do spoileralert.
This film won the Oscar in 1980for Best Picture and it beat a
little film called and we'llbeat four other films but it
beat a little film called RagingBull and it was incredibly
popular at the time.
But its reputation over theyears has been become a bit
tarnished because it beat RagingBull, because Raging Bull has

(09:48):
become kind of mythic in filmhistory.
But I got to tell you, when Iwatched this film again I was
like no, I'm glad it won BestPicture.
I think it absolutely deservedall of the Oscar nominations and
the Oscars that it won and ithad six nominations and won four
of thosecars that it won.

And let's say that it had six nominations and won
four of those, which we can getinto now or we'll get into it
later I will say I have neverseen raging bull and there's a
reason why I so dislike boxingas a sport.
I I know it's considered one ofthe classics of classics and
I've just never had desire tosee it but a movie which gained
in reputation over the years.

That's the thing.
Ordinary People at the time wasthe front runner of everything,
and as time went on and RagingBull kind of came to the
forefront and De Niro'sperformance became more and more
mythic, and so did the film andthe things that Scorsese did in
the film.
This is a completely differentfilm.

I don't know how you can compare them.

Go ahead that Scorsese did in the film.
This is a completely differentfilm.
I don't know how you cancompare them, you know, and Go
ahead, do the critics today feelless towards this film as they
did originally.
Yes, I have an idea why.

As I'm watching it and I'm thinking this is a good
movie, but because it was madein the 80s, I felt like I was
watching an adult after-schoolspecial.
Oh my God 80s flashbacks.

Could you die?
Wedge haircuts.
I feel sorry for people whodon't know what a Dorothy Hamill
wedge haircut is.
Both of my sisters had DorothyHamill haircut and I had one
that was pretty damn close.
I'll tell you, right now I'mwatching this.
I'm thinking, oh my God, thoseabove-the the thigh gym shorts
and clogs and cable knitsweaters that Judd Hirsch is

(11:29):
always in and, oh my God, peoplejogging in jogging suits.
Jogging suits yes, they wereactually wearing the jogging
suits to jog in with the towelaround their neck.
Yes, this movie is a huge, huge80s flashback.
So if you weren't alive duringthe 80s and you want a little
taste of the 80s, definitelywatch this movie.

(11:51):
But you know you talked aboutthe Oscar nominations and I want
to say that at the time it wasa big heartbreak for me because
Mary Tyler Moore was nominatedas Best Actress and she did lose
to sissy spacex.
Now it is really hard for me toargue with sissy spacex win,
because sissy spacex is fuckingbrilliant in coal miner's

(12:13):
daughter.
She is loretta lynn.
There's just.
No, you can't say I can'tseparate them.
But you know I'm also sad formary, but mary, for to her
credit, said she felt completelyvindicated just to be nominated
and besides she has how manyEmmys to console her.
So I don't think it wasactually a win for Mary Tyler

(12:33):
Moore just to be nominated atthis point in her career, which
we can get into later.
She probably had no more roomin her cabinet.

Well exactly.
I mean, those Emmys are big youknow, and I would wrestle
anybody that tried to tell methat Sissy Spacek shouldn't have
won that year- yeah, I mean, itwas just, it was a, it was a
brilliant, brilliant performance.

So anyway, yeah.
So I think we need to talk alittle bit about the background
of Ordinary People and kind ofput it in context of the time of
the 80s and how this, how thiswhole thing came about.

Well, let's talk about what the movie is about
first.

All right, Well, I'm going to let you do that
then.

It's a very quick and easy one to do Quick
synopsis Brad, very quicksynopsis.
The oldest son of an ordinaryfamily air quotes in the Chicago
suburbs drowns in a boatingaccident and 18 months later,
after the second son has beenhome for nine months after
attempting to kill himself, eachof the remaining family members

(13:28):
the father, the mother and theson, conrad, conrad, thank you.
I can only remember ConnieWorks.
Each family copes in their ownway, and none of them in a good
way, and the father is theclosest, but he even is a little
too, for lack of a better word.
Patronizing is a word that'scoming to mind, but not really.
But we see Conrad's perspectivemostly from the psychiatric

(13:52):
appointments he goes to notentirely but mostly and the
parents as they try to return tonormal life.

Do you know those psychiatric appointments with
Judd Hirsch, with the characterof the doctor Berger who is
played by Judd Hirsch, do youknow?
Those were all shot at once,one after the other after the
other, because Judd Hirsch couldonly get like eight days off
from taxi, so they had to filmthem, one after the other after

(14:18):
the other, which, I mean, look,it's not unusual in a movie.
Movies are usually shot out ofsequence.
It's very rare that a movie isshot in sequential order, but I
always think that's like God.
This is why acting is such anemotionally challenging job,
because these actors have tokeep this heightened emotion all
the time.
So it's very taxing.
So, yeah, one taxing, ha ha pun.
So, one after the other afterthe other, because Judd Hirsch

(14:41):
had to get back to taxi.

That might have been to the benefit of the film,
though, because those were soemotional and so exhausting it
was, and both characters,especially Timothy Hutton, were
so worn down.
Maybe that helped those scenes.

I think so, I think so, I really do, I really
do.
You know, things happen for areason in films.
So I think that's true.
But this movie, ordinary People, was based on the book Judith
Guest's first novel, and itbegan as a short story Ordinary
People.
It was published in 1976.
And Judith Guest is thegreat-grandniece of poet Edgar

(15:18):
Guest.
So for our erudite listenersout there, that was for you.
And Robert Redford read thebook when it was in galleys and
all the way back to 1975,redford had told his good friend
and friend of the pod, sidneyPollack we talked about in
Tootsie, that he wanted todirect.

(15:40):
And everyone knew that he wouldeventually end up directing
because Redford thought like adirector, he was a painter after
all.
So he began his life as hewanted to be a painter before he
became an actor.

And who was going to tell Redford?
No, I was going to tell aboutanything.

I wouldn't tell Robert Redford no about anything
.
And Redford, looking back, hesaid he can see that he
collected little bits and piecesof life's observations as he
was growing up.
You know a line from a bookhere or a character in
conversation there, a piece ofmusic, pachelbel Canon, which is

(16:16):
used throughout Ordinary People, which hadn't been heard from
in years, and then it becameubiquitous after this movie came
out.
I remember my sister had analbum of Pachelbel canon.
It's like wow.
So he was ready.
He was primed when he got thisfilm, when he got this book, and
he knew he wanted it to be hisfirst movie.

(16:37):
So he contacted his friendAlvin Sargent, who was a very
well-known, very well-respectedscreenwriter.

He had a whole list of films.
I was impressed.

I can't remember off the top of my head and
according to Alvin Sargent, heworked on it.
Well, redford said that Sargentworked on the screenplay for
about a year and he was having areal trouble relating to the
characters.
So Redford took him to someparties in the North Shore of
Chicago where Ordinary People isset you know this incredible

(17:08):
neighborhood of incredibleaffluence and he said to him, he
took him to a couple partiesand he said look how seamless
these people, look how seamlesstheir facade is.
You have to go past it.
You have to go to the subtext.
You have to go to the subtext.
And one of my favorite scenesin Ordinary People is that party
scene, because people are justtalking nonsense to each other,

(17:29):
ridiculous things, ridiculousthings to each other that make
absolutely no sense.
And one partygoer says toDonald Sutherland's character
I'm not talking to you.
And then he turns and walksaway and you're like what the
hell was that?

Just stupid, stupid things.
At first I was like what washis direct decision to do this?
And then it was well.
Actually, maurice said this israther mundane and I'm like now
I get it.

It's supposed to be, it's important, yeah, but I
want to talk more about theparty sequence, particularly
Mary Tyler Moore and the partysequence, because I think it's a
brilliant scene of hers.
So he got the idea, thescreenplay was done and every
studio all these studios thatRedford had made millions upon
millions of dollars for as anactor turned him down, except
Paramount.

(18:16):
And Paramount said we'll do itfor you, but we want you to star
in it.
And Redford said he absolutelyrefused.
He, I laid down the law.
He said I am not acting in this, I am directing it, and the
only way they would do it is ifthey paid him scale.
So he did.
So he made scale as a director.

Thirty thousand dollars to direct this film, wow
so yeah so, but he knew hebelieved in it he believed in it
, did he get a percentage?

I hope well.
Later he got three hundredthousand dollars, so okay later
the studio needed it.

Clip (18:47):
But you know, it's always nice.

Later the studio was like okay, here's three
hundred thousand you know, okay,fine um, so yeah.
So he had the screenplay doneand he knew he wanted to work on
this and he started to thinkabout people that he wanted to
cast.
And you know who?
The first choice to play conradi'm'm not Conrad.
Calvin the father, the DonaldSutherland part Calvin.
Do you know who the firstchoice was?

No, I know Conrad, but I can't think of Calvin.

Well, it was interesting because Redford had
a cast in mind, all set to goFor Calvin, he wanted Gene
Hackman.
For Beth, he wanted Mary TylerMoore from day one, and we'll
talk about that.
And for the Doctor, he wantedRichard Dreyfuss, which would
have been a really good cast.
I think Gene Hackman would havebeen a beautiful cast, calvin,

(19:35):
but they couldn't come to termswith money.

Yeah, it's interesting.
I do remember that now that youmention it.
I did some research on somebackground on this film and I
kept seeing over and over againthat Gene Hackman couldn't do it
because he was tied up doingSuperman 2.
And then I found an interviewhe did in 85, where he said it

(19:58):
all came down to the money moneyand he regretted the decision.

They always regret the decision when it comes to
money.
They always regret it.
He wanted Hackman, but MichaelEisner was running Paramount at
this time and he had his ownsuggestions, and one of the
people that he suggested forBeth was Lee Remick, and then
Sidney Pollack suggested JaneFonda.
So everybody always had anopinion about who he wanted to
play this part.

(20:21):
But when it came to the part ofBeth, the mother Redford was
pretty adamant.
And the reason is is because heand Mary Tyler Moore didn't know
each other.
They knew each other in theHollywood sense.
They knew each other, but theydidn't know each other
personally.
But they were neighbors inMalibu and they would often pass

(20:44):
each other on the sand and MaryTyler Moore would never speak
to him, she would just look upand smile or nod her head and
would never engage.
And then there were other timeswhere Redford said he would see
her walking along the shore, onthe beach, you know, apparently
deep in thought.
And he said and that's when Ibegan to wonder about the dark

(21:05):
side of Mary Tyler Moore,because Mary Tyler Moore at this
time of course, as we all know,had just finished her seven
year, her iconic seven year runon the Mary Tyler Moore show.
She was Mary Richards andbefore that she was Laura Petri,
so she was America's sweetheart.
Here's another America'ssweetheart we've got here, but

(21:29):
she truly owned that.
But I think it's so genius thatRedford saw something in her
untapped.
This is what a good directordoes.
He sees something in heruntapped and he's like I wonder
what the dark side of Mary TylerMoore is like.
I think that's a brilliant.
It was a brilliant castingchoice and he went to the mat
for Mary Tyler Moore.
Mary Tyler Moore said that hecalled her in and he said they

(21:52):
talked during the interview andhe confessed to her that you
know, he was really intriguedcasting her and she was very
excited about that opportunity.
But he was concerned that herimage as Mary Richards might
destroy her believability everysingle actor in Hollywood and he

(22:21):
finally was convinced that itshould be back to his first
choice, mary Tyler Moore.
And that's because, see, maryTyler Moore was at a crossroads
in her career.
At this point she said herselfmy comedy years were over, her
marriage to Grant Tinker wasending, her two variety show
follow-ups to the Mary TylerMoore show were not successful.
And she said I was in a stateof forced reevaluation.
So this felt like the next stepfor her, the perfect step.

(22:43):
But again they took someconvincing and about this time
Mary's agent suggested to aBroadway producer, manny
Eisenberg that Mary replaced TomConti in a production of whose
life is it anyway?
On Broadway, which is a playabout a character who is facing
their own mortality.
They've been in a severeaccident and it's about

(23:05):
euthanasia, basically.

Great movie with Richard Dreyfuss yeah.

So here's the thing.
And it was played by Tom Conti.
So Mary went in as a femalecharacter, which was a brilliant
casting coup.
And it also showed Paramountand proved Robert Redford's
point that, hey, if Eisenberg isgoing to believe that Mary
Tyler Moore could handle adramatic role on Broadway, then
she could do Ordinary People.

(23:29):
So that's what happened.
That's what happened.
It convinced Paramount, itconvinced Redford that she was
right for the part.
But she had to film OrdinaryPeople before she even went to
Broadway to do this play.
So I think that's kind offascinating that Mary Tyler
Moore had to prove that shecould play this part.

And that seems more common.
Now, what do you?

mean.

For an actor to go from comedy to drama and vice
versa.
Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean itwas done before.

but comedy the famous line dying is easy,
comedy is hard.
If somebody can do comedy,pretty damn good chance they can
do drama.
I mean it's the other wayaround Very frequently.
I mean you know how much I loveBetty Davis, but, ooh,
sometimes when Betty Davis did acomedy you're just like oh,
betty, please go back to LittleFoxes.

You know, yeah, both Jim Carrey, who I do not
like his comedy, but both JimCarrey and Robin Williams, I
like both of them better indramas.

Brilliant.

As much as I love Robin Williams, both as a
comedian and as a dramatic actor, I really appreciate his dramas
.

Yeah, no, it's true, it's true.
If you have the chops to docomedy and do comedy well and
nobody did comedy better thanMary Tyler Moore then chances
are you can do drama.
Same thing with Lucille Ball, Imean, it's the same thing,
they're actresses, they can doanything.
So anyway, the whole GeneHackman situation.

(24:58):
Redford didn't know what he wasgoing to do and he actually
turned to Donald Sutherland toplay the therapist, to play the
part of Dr Berger, andSutherland came in to read and
he told Redford that he reallywanted to play Calvin the father
.
And Redford said he was soimpressed with his, with his
honesty and his passion for therole that he's like okay, done
Cast, pretty easy.

One thing I was disappointed in is, of the four
main leads, donald Sutherlandwas the only one not nominated
for an Oscar.
I don't know who else wasnominated that year.
So I can't judge whether he wasbetter or worse.
But I thought he wasoutstanding in this role.

Well, yeah, but I mean you have De Niro in Raging
Bull.
I mean, how do you argue withthat performance?
I think Robert Duvall wasnominated, I think that year
John Hurt.
You know it was also the yearof the Elephant man we talked
about during Mel Brooks' episode, which also nominated for Best
Picture.
Yeah, I think also was it PeterO'Toole and Jack Lemmon um.

(25:57):
Yeah, I think also was it petero'toole, um, and jack lemon
yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, thatwas it.
That was it, because petero'toole has never won an oscar
and this was one of the manytimes he was nominated.
So, yeah, it's unfortunate thathe was the only one of the main
cast who wasn't nominated, andhe should have been.
But who are you going to knockoff?

Clip (26:13):
there.

You know, I don't I don't want to knock off any of
those people.
They, they were all prettybrilliant.
I mean the Elephant man.

Wow, yeah, that's quite the royalty there.
Yeah, it really was.

But he's wonderful .
It was an unusual role forSutherland.
We think of Sutherland fromClute, we think of Sutherland
from MASH and this was, I mean,this kind of.
You can see the GeneHackman-esque qualities of
Sutherland in this role and Ithink he's absolutely wonderful

(26:42):
in it.

And I don't know if you caught it.
There was something meta inthis film because, as Judd
Hirsch is talking to ConradTimothy Hutton, he says you look
like one of the body snatchers.

I didn't catch that when it happened, but yeah
you're absolutely right, thatdoes kind of matter.
And that leads us to nice seguethere, brad to Timothy Hutton,
who did win an Oscar for thisrole as Best Supporting Actor.
And Redford said that Conrad,not surprisingly, was the
hardest role to cast because youneed a teenage-ish actor to

(27:20):
play a very, very heavy,dramatic, difficult, complex
role.
And I guess there was a bigsearch.
They searched high and low.
They searched in theaterrepertories in LA, in New York,
in St Louis, no-transcript ofhis father.

(28:11):
So his emotions were rightthere, you know.
I mean they're right there.

Now he did say in an interview he did not use that
, but that's impossible to shakethat off.
You can't not, yeah, you can'tnot, it may not have been a
conscious thing, but it wasthere.

No, any good actor is going to use it.
You use it, subconsciouslyperhaps, but yeah, you use it,
use it.
But Redford's such a genius inthis and he does this, and we've
talked about William Wyler didthis.
Sidney Pollack did this.
He told the cast and crewduring filming to leave Timothy

(28:43):
alone.
Leave him alone.
You can say hello to him in themorning, you can be pleasant to
him.
Don't engage him.
And Timothy started to get acomplex.
Well, what is going on withConrad?
Conrad is feeling alienated.
Conrad is feeling alienated.
Conrad is feeling unseen.
That's how good directors do it,you know.
You may think, oh, that waskind of cruel, but it's no

(29:04):
crueler than loading a suitcasefull of books and giving them to
Olivia Haviland and saying goup the stairs for the 1900th
time.
That's what good directors do,you know.
So he put his actor in theright emotional state, adding to
the emotional state he wasalready in.
And Redford said he felt likeHutton was pretty much an open
wound during this whole filming,which, if you watch it, you can

(29:28):
see it.
That's what's so wonderfulabout Timothy Hutton in this
part, the I know what I wantedto say.
So he went to the firstaudition and elizabeth mcgovern
was already cast um as janineconrad's uh school friend and he
said that when mcgovern andhutton were together in the

(29:48):
reading he said it just blew himaway.
He said there was no question,these were the right two people
for this part.
But I have to ask because thiswas my reaction seeing this
again after many years ElizabethMcGovern, what the hell
happened to her?
She is wonderful in this,speaking of Invasion, of the

(30:08):
Body Snatchers who came and tookElizabeth McGovern's soul,
because she ain't nothing likethis on Downton Abbey.
She's a walking ghost inDownton Abbey.
She's so wonderful in this,she's so alive, she's so funny,
she's so quirky.
I just want to know whathappened to her.
What happened to her?

I think she's having a baby is what happened
to her.
You think so?
Well, you know I like that filmbecause there's aspects of it
that I think are wonderful, butit's actually not a very good
film.

Oh, you mean the film.
She's having a baby.
I'm like what.

She had a baby.

What are you talking about?

Okay, yeah, maybe that's what happened to her.
I don't know.

I was just like I was doing double and triple
takes.
I was like wait because herfrom that.

But I thought what the hell happened?
You were a wonderful actressnot so much anymore, but you
know who was what I wanted tosee more of dinah manoff, she
was great.

I was gonna say, I was gonna say, you know who was
wonderful is dinah manoff yeah,I hate that she left acting,
but um well, you know, daughterof lee grant, you know, so
pretty damn good gene pool there, you know, and dinah manoff was
so.
Oh my God, it is a shame sheleft because she was so
wonderful in this.
She was wonderful in Grease, asMarty Maraschino Remember her

(31:26):
in Grease she was so great, shewas hysterical in Empty Nest and
you know I'm not huge in EmptyNest.
She was great on Soap even Iremember there she was wonderful
on soap.
So yeah, she's wonderful inthis.
She's great.
This entire cast is wonderful.
I think that this is one of themost perfectly cast films.
Not I don't know if ever.

I don't want to make that kind of hyperbolic
statement, but you can't denythat, despite the the problems
that he may have had in initialcasting, he got the right cast
for this yeah, and when I sawdinah manoff's uh scene I knew,
right away from her phonyeverything's that she was going
to end up dying and I keptsaying, oh, I hope she comes

(32:04):
back before that happens.
And she never did.
I was so disappointed Becauseshe was wonderful to watch.

Yeah, she did so well.
One scene, one scene and she'sjust let's have a good Christmas
Conrad.
Let's have the best Christmasit's just like, oh my God, and
we know what happens.
I think one of the brilliantthings about this film and the
passage of time, and in TimothyHutton in particular.
You see it because when thismovie starts he looks like

(32:30):
someone who just came out of Idon't want to call the mental
institution, but he was.
He was, you know, after hetries to commit suicide he is
taken away to a hospital and hecomes out and you look at him
and his hair is really short andhe's got those dark circles on
his eyes and he's so gaunt andhe's so jumpy and edgy and
nervous.
And then as he slowly, as themovie progresses and he slowly

(32:51):
begins healthier and healthier,till the end of the movie he
looks great.
You know what I mean.
Looks like a typical teenagerwho's just on, you know, just
coming home from school.
It's it's.
It's a really slow progression.
But you see, the, the emotionalchanges that Conrad goes through
through working with the doctorum are are manifested in his

(33:11):
physical change.
He looks, he looks bigger, helooks heftier.
I mean, he's just, it'swonderful's wonderful, it's it's
he's a wonderful performance.
It absolutely deserved hisoscar for this performance.
So this a lot of the film wasfilmed.
A lot of the movie was filmedon location in lake forest,
illinois, because those are, youcan't fake those incredible

(33:32):
chicago suburbs yeah and I guessredford.
You know this was redford'sfirst film, so pretty amazing
that you win.
Win an Oscar for directing yourfirst film.

And the film being an Oscar winner as well.

Yeah, and the film being an Oscar winner, I mean
and Redford was the first.
After this, warren Beatty wenton to win the Oscar for Reds and
then Clint Eastwood.
So I mean, yeah, so Redford wasprobably the very first movie
star to then turn to.
It never won an Oscar for anactor as an actor, but then we
wouldn't want for directing Umand Redford.
I guess Redford approachesactors like he was approached,

(34:07):
like Mike Nichols worked withhim.
You know, he stayed very closeto the actor.
He's just an actor's director,you know.
And um Sutherland said that hetotally handed his trust to the
actors.
He gave him the space theyneeded to find the role.
And Mary Tyler Moore said thathe was very kind to her and he

(34:29):
gave her time to investigate therole.
He restricted nothing, he justkept an eye on her.
Mary Richards gestures that wasthe only thing he watched.
He was like, oh no, that's aMary Richards gesture.
Oh, don't slap your thigh,that's what Mary Richards would
do.
So it's kind of interesting.
He kept an eye on that and kepther in check.

(34:51):
And I'm sorry, but when I watchher there is no resemblance to
Mary Richards here in thisperformance.
I mean, it's just no, notwhatsoever, it's just amazing.
So I'd like to talk about acouple scenes I want to speak on
.

Timothy Hutton first.
Oh, please do, please do,because when it started Maurice
and I had different reactions,well, very similar.
The first thing Maurice saidwas, oh, this is a movie about
him on drugs, and of course Ididn't correct him, I let him
figure it out on his own.
But he looked so bad, yeah,yeah, so bad, yeah, yeah.
My first reaction was oh, mygoodness, timothy hutton really
grew into his looks.

(35:21):
But then at the end of the filmI'm like, oh no, that's timothy
hutton yeah, you know veryyoung hot man.

So yeah, it's true .
No, it was a real physicalchange in an emotional change,
and it really was, and he wonthe oscar.
He won the oscar, um.
So I love.
I love to talk about some ofthese scenes.
I love, as we talked about justa bit earlier, the party scene,
because what I love about thatscene is not only the ridiculous
dialogue, which means nothingbut says everything underneath,

(35:48):
is how loose and engaged Beth is, if you notice when Beth is in
a social setting.
Why?
Because it's all surfacy whenshe's in a social setting she is
the warmest, the most charming.
Mary Tyler Moore is smiling andlaughing.
Because it's all show, becauseshe doesn't have to go deep.

(36:08):
You know, she's one of thesepeople.
She can do that easily becauseit's not engaging with someone
on a profound level.
That's the problem with someoneon a profound level.
That's the problem.
So she's very good at that.
She's always very good inpublic.
She's always very good in thesesocial settings.
But in that party scene she'swonderful until she overhears
Calvin talking with a friend oftheirs about Conrad and his

(36:31):
doctor and it immediatelychanges because it suddenly just
got real.
Yep.

Yeah.

And she can't deal with it.

Yeah, and she handled that so well because she
didn't get angry, she didn'tact angry or upset, but you
could see the tension and theway she walked over and talk.
Just like what happened in reallife, honey.

You know kind of steer the direction and then
we're going to talk about thislater.

It was really well done.

It was very real and then you know they're in the
car and it's Iceland reallywell done it was very real.
And then you know they're inthe car and it's Iceland.
There is, I mean, on the drivethere, they're warm and they're
funny, they're talking aboutgoing to a movie instead of the
party and they're laughing.
And then I drive back andapparently Calvin's had a couple
of martinis.
So I'm like, well, why is hedriving?

But you know, hey, it was the eighties.
Yes, it was the eighties.
Iceland, iceland, and I knowBeth Jarrett.
Yeah, now, my dad was like thatit was all about appearances,
but nothing to this degree.
But I know some Beth Jarrett'swho doesn't matter what's
happening in the world.

You act like everything's wonderful well, I
mean, that's the thing, and whenyou, when you think about um,
should we talk about Mary TylerMoore and the character Beth?
Do you think um?

sure, let's go there, we're already there I
think that's that's probably agood time.

So so mary tyler moore hated when people called
beth come up to her and say shewas such a bitch.
And mary tyler moore said shewas not a bitch, she was a
victim.
She was taught by her motherand you kind of get a glimpse of
this in the movie.
You see, just enough to know,just enough to know that it
comes from mother to daughter.

(38:00):
She was taught to do the rightthing and that's what she
responded to to do.
She had to do the right thing.
And I, thinking about thischaracter of Beth and, as I said
, and how she reminds me of myown mother in certain ways.
You know, it's like it's thething I feel about.
It is sometimes people who actso cold are the exact opposite.

(38:20):
They're just so sensitive thatthey can't deal with the
difficulties of life.
And that's how I feel aboutBeth.
Beth is so sensitive, she's sowounded.
She allowed herself to open upto one person and that was her
son, Buck.
And what happened to Buck?
Buck died.

(38:41):
So she's not going to openherself up again, she's not
going to allow herself to behurt that deeply.
And, Mary, you know, obviouslyMary Tyler Moore had some of her
own issues with her own son,which we'll talk about in a bit.
You know, very tragic, We'lltalk about in a bit, you know,
very tragic.
But she also said that thisrole of Beth reminded her very

(39:02):
much of her own family.
She said particularly herfather.
Her father was veryunaccessible, like Beth.
He was unable to access hisemotions and express his love to
his daughter.
You know, even after hersuccess I remember her telling
stories about he would come tothe taping of the Mary Tyler
Moore show and he would just sitthere stone-faced.

(39:22):
You're like, your daughter isMary Tyler Moore.
For Christ's sake, she turnsthe world on with a smile and
you're just totally unemotional.
So I think she had such a greathandle on that character,
because that's the way thosepeople are.
They're so brittle they'llbreak.
You know, they can't allowthemselves.
They can't allow the facade togo down, because when they have,

(39:45):
they've been devastated.

Yeah, I could see that clearly.
I did have a very hard timebeing sympathetic towards her.
Maurice was totally sympathetic.
He's like, he got it.
He's like, like you said, she'sa victim.
She is hurting, probably morethan the rest of them, and I saw
all of that.
You know, it was very clear tome the pain she was in and how

(40:07):
she was raised and everything.
And despite all that, I stilljust couldn't stand the woman.

Well, I just wouldn't slap her across the
face.
She did a great job.
I mean, she did, she did, shedid beautifully.
You know what the key is, thekey to that character are those
flashback scenes, those sceneswhere she's there's that one
scene where she's got her longhair and she's remembering a
scene with Bucky and Conrad andshe's almost, it's almost
incestual the way she looks atBuck, the way she let.

(40:34):
I mean she's flirtatious withher son, she's looking at him,
you know, like she'd look at alover, and that tells you, right
there, this woman opened up forone person and I believe that
you know Calvin says that to her.
You know, all of the best ofyou went with Buck.
You gave love to one person.
And I love those flashbackscenes because you kind of see,

(40:57):
I love seeing how she was withbuck and you realize that she
did, she held.
That boy was her pride, herheart, and that heart was
shattered when he was killed sohow's she gonna react?

I do have to say, though, they did.
I agree it was the.
The one with buck was reallywell done when they showed the
dance scene where the flashbackwith her and her husband yeah
they put the ponytail on her,which was kind of funny, but you
know they're trying to make herlook young they did absolutely
nothing to make donald southernlook, they didn't even change
his hairstyle I'm like what nowshe's with an old man?

she married her more.
Bet always had a differenthairstyle for every flashback.
She had the long hair and thenshe kind of had a feathered
thing when conrad tried to killhimself, and then she had the
ponytail, but the way shecarried herself and her look and
everything she clearly she dida good job of looking young oh,
she did.
She did you know, in that thatscene, the camera scene where
they're trying to take thepicture which is just like the

(41:53):
tensest scene.

Oh my god I love that scene that I was literally
sick to my stomach.

It is so tense.
What's happening is that thefamily is visiting Beth's
parents and they're trying totake a family photo and the
father Beth's father can't workthe camera.
I'm like, how difficult is it.
Is this your first time workinga camera?
Dude?
Come on, it was a new camera tohim, who knows?
I guess, so, but the tensionbetween Beth and Conrad.

(42:23):
And then they want to get apicture of the three of them.
And then, uh, donaldSutherland's character, calvin,
says I want to get a picture ofBeth and Conrad.
And they look at each other andlet's not do this.
No, no, not, not a good idea,no-transcript.

(43:01):
Hear a plate drop and she'sbroken a plate and she's sitting
on it.
She's kneeling on the floor andher mother comes in and Beth
says it's a clean break.
And that's her life summed upin that line If something is
going to break, it has to be aclean break so it can be saved.
What happened with Bucky wasnot a clean break and that's why

(43:25):
she can't deal with it.
And she continually says in therest of that scene with her
mother I think this can be saved.

I think this can be saved.

And that's the key to that character.
She has to have a clean break.
She can't deal with somethingif it's a mess, and that's what
her life has become is a mess.

There were a lot of painful scenes in this film,
and that was one that it wasphysically painful to me.
I just was.
You could see that sheet of icebetween her and her son.

Yeah.

And I, just I wanted to take him and hold him.

I wanted to take her and hold her.
That scene in the they bothneeded a hug yeah her.

That scene in the.
They both needed a hug yeah.

Well, that scene in the garden, another one of
those scenes she's trying shewas trying.
She sees him sitting out thereand she's trying to just have
some kind of connection with himand he has to go and bring up
Buck and she just can't take itand she immediately shuts down,
immediately shuts down, and theystart talking down.
Immediately shuts down andgives up and they start talking
over each other.

(44:22):
And then he does the dog barksand she's just like put that
sweater on, I'm out of here,you're a nut job.
I mean, she just she can't deal.

She can't deal.
And and the scene in the garage, I felt so sad for the father
just finally wanting to talkabout it and he just couldn't
break through that.

Yeah, it's, it's just so it's.
It's a heartbreaking film.
And you know, at the end, when,uh, calvin says I don't think I
love you anymore, you know, andshe just looks at him and
silently turns around and walksup the stairs and then goes to
that closet and brings thatsuitcase down and then for a
second it hits her and shealmost loses it, but she doesn't

(45:07):
.
It is heartbreaking, it's just.
It's heartbreaking because youwonder how's this woman going to
continue?

Yeah.

You know she's, she's now.
She's lost her husband and youknow both of her sons.

It's, yeah, it, it gets me every time I was again.
She is a tragic character, butI was very happy for her husband
and her son I that they aretogether and I think they can
move forward.
Donald sutherland's characterhe was clearly hurt.
Timothy dalton's character itwas just like a shrug timothy
dalton.
Timothy hudson yeah, timothydalton, when he was young he

(45:42):
played no uh yeah timothy hutton.
His character was somewhatnonchalant.
He was more concerned about hisfather.
Well, he's.
He didn't really ask fordetails, he's healed or he's
healing.

Yeah, that's the thing.
Think about him at thebeginning of the movie.
He is dealing with his, withhis demons.
He's dealing with his issues.
Now it's their turn yeah, at theend of the movie he's the
strongest character he's thestrongest character at the end
of the movie and he and he tellshis father he loves him and
that's so.
You know there's hope forcalvin, because that's a
beautiful scene at the end whenthe camera just pulls back.

(46:13):
And then they are, and you know, mary teller moore is gone in
the taxi.
God knows, she's going back toTexas to her brother, and so you
know they're going to be okay,but wow.

Yeah, and I.
It's not that I'm unsympathetictowards Mary's character, but
there comes a point where youjust have to realize there's
nothing I can do to chip away.
No, it's true, I have to.

I have to move on and look, I don't and I don't
think you need necessarily tohave understanding for her or
sympathy for her.
But I don't like either whenpeople say she's a bitch,
because she's not a bitch.
That's too easy, that's tooclean, that's too surfacy.
No, this is an incrediblywounded woman and I don't think
you're supposed to feel warm forher.
You're supposed to feel exactlywhat you feel, you know

(46:56):
uncomfortable around her.

I'm sympathetic in the fact that I understood where
her pain was coming from.
I was not sympathetic in thatshe didn't even.
I know she seemed to try inthat year but she didn't really
seem to try.
She just she wouldn't let thosebarriers drop.
I just don't think she couldmore than a second.

She couldn't, she couldn't.
I mean there's some people whojust can't and you just have to
get to a point in your lifewhere you say God bless you and
move on.

(47:42):
Wish you the best genius ofRobert Redford to look at what
someone would derogatively calla sitcom actress and realize
these depths, the depths of thistalent and the depths of the
emotion in this woman.
You know, it's just, it'sstaggering.
You know, the very, very tragicthing about this is is that
three months I'm sorry, no,three weeks after Ordinary

(48:03):
People was released life kind ofimitated art and Mary Tyler
Moore's only son, richie, diedof a.
He accidentally shot himself inthe head.
So her only son.
And she had a very, veryconflicted relationship with her
son.
Basically, richie was a child.

(48:25):
When Richie on the Dick Van Dykeshow was a child, they used to
play together.
So he saw his mother throughthis incredible career, but she
was never there.
She tried to be there, so shehad a very difficult
relationship with him.
So can you imagine I mean triedto be there, so she had a very
difficult relationship with him.
So can you imagine, I meanthat's so her sister had died.
Now her son dies, mary TylerMoore a survivor for sure, you

(48:48):
know, dealing with her diabetesand all of these tragedies in
her life, it's just so I neverforget.
That adds an extra layer to me,that meta layer, knowing what
happened to her real son shortlyafter this film was released.

Yeah, I can't imagine having this movie come
out at that same time.
I mean it's yeah, and then tolose the Oscar, what the so yes,
but I mean, I can imaginepeople praising her for what a
great movie is, continuouslyreminding her that life imitated
art.
Here it's just well.

Yeah, I mean how do you ever watch, how painful?
How do you ever watch this filmagain and not think about the
on tragedy in your life whichmirrors it?

Clip (49:29):
Do you know?

I even wonder if she could, I guess, we'll never
know, We'll never know.
But yes, ordinary people.

I got to bring up one of the conversations that
just also hit me in the gutplease was when I'm not.
I'm gonna use their real namesbecause I can't think of the
characters.
When donald southern asked herdo you love me, rather than
saying I do love you, she said Ifeel the same way I always did.
Yes, yes, it's like.

(49:55):
Oh, my god, it's a daggerthrough the heart.
Yeah, the look on his face,that look alone, should have
gotten him an Oscar.
No it's just.

He should have.
Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know how youeliminate some of the other guys
, but yeah, I agree with you, Iagree.

Or at least a nomination.

So, yes, ordinary People won Best Picture.
It won four Oscars, sixnominations Jud nominated for
Best Supporting Actor.
As in Mary.
Tyler Moore was nominated forBest Actress.
It won Best Picture.
Best Director Robert.

Redford Best Adapted Screenplay.
Alvin Sargent and SupportingActor was Timothy Hutton, who
was 20 years old at the time andis still the youngest winner of
Best Supporting Actor.
Isn't that amazing?
And you know, he really.
To me he was the primarycharacter and he really deserved
to win the Best Actor Award.
I get it.
There's no way in the world hewould have won.
It just would never havehappened.
So it's best for him.

Clip (50:46):
But it still drove me crazy.
Well, yeah, not to me.

Yeah, unfortunately it's been kind of.
It hasn't gotten a badreputation, but his reputation
has kind of gone down over theyears as time has gone on and
people, mostly, as I said, dueto Raging Bull, but it also beat
the Elephant man.
It beat Coal Miner's Daughter,it beat Tess.
I think it's a brilliant,brilliant best picture winner

(51:13):
and I got to tell you a veryfunny story.
For some reason I have thismemory Lillian Gish presented
robert redford with bestdirector oscar and I swear to
god, when she was, however, oldI was 12 year old when she was
reading nominees.
I'm watching she and I believeshe said robert redford for
ordinary purple.

(51:33):
So whenever I think of thismovie now, I think of Ordinary
Purple.

That was the prequel to the Color Purple.

The Color Purple, exactly, exactly, exactly.
So anyway, I just want to wrapup something.
You've talked aboutnarcissistic personality
disorders on this podcast and Iwant to read something to you.
I got something to read thatjournalist Julia Hall said and
she's written extensively aboutnarcissistic personality

(52:06):
disorder and she praised MaryTyler Moore for taking such a
career risk.
She said scaffolding gapingemptiness, with a persona of
perfection supported by denial,blame, rejection and rage.
And that's the thing.
The rage in Beth is sostaggering that she can't let it

(52:28):
out.
It's just, it's.
The complexities of thisperformance, of this character
are phenomenal.

Yeah, she's that person.
When she walks in the room,when she's in that state, you
can't wait for her to leave.
Yeah, exactly, that householdis one.
When you walk in the front door, you feel like you have to kind
of push the tension aside toget through.

Oh, wow, yeah, or wear a really, really big parka
because it's cold in that house,it's cold in that Jared house.
So this obviously startedRobert Redford on an incredibly
successful directing career.
He directed nine more films sofar Quiz Show, which I love, a
River Runs Through it, somethingelse I love, yeah, and

(53:10):
unfortunately we know we justlost Donald Sutherland recently.
It wasn't that long ago thatDonald Sutherland died, but we
lost Mary, of course, very, verysad, but God, what a legacy of
this woman, and I mean, even ifshe had just been Laura Petri
and Mary Richards, you know,case closed, full stop.
Yeah.
To add this performance to thatis just phenomenal, phenomenal.

(53:34):
So, brad, why don't you tell ushow this film performed when it
was released?

Well, you know, you've got to remind me in the
future.
I want to talk, to get peoplein the perspective of the time.
I want to talk about otherfilms that came out during that
same year.
So to give people an idea,here's oh good idea.
Here's what came out that yearthat you'll remember.
There were a lot of movies butCaddyshack, private Benjamin,
the Blues Brothers, the Shining,and then the ones that were the

(54:02):
top grossing films.
I'm going to start with thisfilm.
This film was made with a $6.2million budget.
Yeah, it grossed $52 million.
Now, adjusted for inflation,you know I love to do that yeah,
adjusted for inflation, itearned $202 million by today's
dollars.
Wow, pretty damn good, prettydamn good.

(54:23):
But it was only number 10ththat year.
Number 10 and the reason isbecause we had some big ones.
Some hold up, some I don't everwant to see again.
One the number one should be nosurprise.
Star wars, episode 5 the empirestrikes back.
Well, yeah, then.
A movie that I know will notshould be no surprise.
Star Wars, episode V the EmpireStrikes Back.
Well, yeah, then.

(54:43):
A movie that I know will nothold up is Stir Crazy, I know
that Richard Pryor, was thatalso with Gene Wilder?

Gene?

Wilder Okay, I wasn't sure if he was the
co-star.
Then we had Kramer vs Kramer.
Ah, we had Airplane, and theone that certainly does not hold
up it didn't even hold up atthat time was Any which Way you
Can.

Oh, which was the reggaetang we talked about that,
but I love Ruth Gordon Goddamnape eating all my.

Clip (55:11):
Oreos.

Crapping all over the place.
12 ribs, my ass.
No, I know it's funny.

It doesn't hold up.
I love Ruth Gordon.
I can't believe she was even inthat film.
I remember nothing about it.
It's the only thing I watch,probably on purpose.
It's the only thing.

I watch in that.
I think Kramer vs Kramer was 79.
It must have been 79-80 kind ofthing, because Hoffman won.
Hoffman won Best Actor 79.

Oh, really that's kind of weird.

It was probably one of those ones, maybe it
wasn't, maybe it was on theborderline yeah, well, I made it
in december, huge amount ofmoney, so it probably was
probably that was now as far asthe critics go, um, it was
rotten tomatoes.

The critic score is 89 and the audience score
pretty much matches at 88, and Ido have to one little bit of
trivia here as I'm lookingthrough the other films that
came out this year.
There was a film that came outthat year that I didn't even
know existed.
Oh really, the thong show movie.
Oh, I remember that.
I don't remember it, but I dolove this quote.

(56:09):
George burns went and saw itand his quote for this was for
the first time in 65 years, Iwanted to get out of show
business.

Oh, that's great.
I love that.
That sounds like one of thoselines at that ridiculous party
that Calvin and Beth went to.

I love another line from that party is this guy
says I have no idea what myschedule is, but I'm free almost
every day.
And, folks, as I said before,if you've listened to us this
far, it must mean you somewhatenjoy the show, because I don't
think you put yourself throughpain if you didn't.
So please tell your friends tohave a listen and you know what?
Let others know that you don'teven know by going to Apple or
Spotify or whatever app youlisten to, and rate and review

(56:58):
us, please, right?

Exactly Right, exactly Exactly.
And be sure and stay tunedthroughout this month because,
as I said, it's mother's may andwe have some wonderful mother
movies coming up, one whichfeatures the biggest mother of
them all, and that's all I'mgoing to say.
So, brad, is there anythingmore we want to say about
Ordinary Purple?

(57:20):
This?

film.
No, I did release some of mypain and anxiety.
Good, good I'm glad.

Well, I guess that leaves us with only one thing
left to say Brad, but I don'twant to say it.
So let's not say goodbye, let'sjust say au revoir.

No, let's say goodbye,
goodbye everybody.

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