“The Judy Garland Show”, Part One: Rainbow High

In the fall of 1963, television audiences witnessed something extraordinary –  the legendary Judy Garland starring in her very own weekly variety show on CBS. What should have been a triumphant venture and crowning achievement to an already legendary career became instead one of entertainment's most fascinating tragedies... and it was all captured forever on videotape.

With a roster of guest stars ranging from old pals Mickey Rooney and Martha Raye, to the powerhouse Ethel Merman, to a 21-year old singing sensation named Barbra Streisand, "The Judy Garland Show" is a testament to the unique magic of the greatest entertainer of her time, and our only visual documentation of the mature artist at the height of her powers singing the songs that defined her legacy. So, forget your troubles, come on, get happy, and join us for Part One of our special two-part episode on "The Judy Garland Show".

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Judy Garland Show.
I don't know what makes me keepplaying back on that.
All kidding aside, to work withJudy again, of course, for
yours truly, for me, withoutbeing corny, we've had a
wonderful seven days togetherhere.

(00:35):
Let's do it again.
This is not only tradition,this is the love of my life.
My wife knows this, my wivesknow this.
It always has been.
Because there never will be.
There aren't adjectives enoughto express in the world how the

(00:56):
one and only Judy is JudyBecause she is the best.

Speaker 4 (01:08):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maeda.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes
movies.

Speaker 4 (01:14):
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions
are the ones that matter.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
As does your self-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood.
Merry Christmas, Brad.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Merry Christmas.
Okay, it is June, so what'sgoing on?
Merry Christmas, what's thedeal?
It's.

Speaker 4 (01:41):
Christmas for me because we are celebrating I
can't even say favorite.
This show means so much to me,listener, I talked Brad into
talking about the Judy Garlandshow and the reason I said Merry

(02:02):
Christmas and Christmas in June.
Yes, it is June, but JudyGarland is June.
Judy Garland was born in June.
Judy Garland died in June.
Judy Garland sparked Stonewallin June.
June is all about Judy Garlandand for me it's a Merry, merry
Christmas when I get to talkabout this show.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
And all that's true, except there is debate on the
sparking stonewall issue, butthat's all.
I think that's going to besomething that will never be
resolved.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
You know what, Brad?
I ask for so little from you.
Let me have that.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
I don't know about that.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
I don't know.
I will give you that Becauseemotionally it probably had
something underneath going on.

Speaker 4 (02:41):
Yes, definitely, I had something underneath going
on.
Yes, definitely, I mean that'sthe legend.
And speaking of legends, yes,we're talking about the one and
the only Judy Garland and theJudy Garland show, which was her
CBS variety show, which airedfrom September 29th 1963 to
March 29th 1964.
And I want to give a littlecaveat here we are doing two

(03:04):
episodes.
That's why I also said MerryChristmas, because that's a gift
, because Brad doesn't like todo two episodes.
He only likes to do one episode, and I get that, but sometimes
he lets me do two.
The reason is pretty much likewhen we talked about Bewitched,
we just said Bewitched to me istwo different series, had two
different formats, two differenteras.
Judy Garland Show had twodifferent formats, two different

(03:24):
eras.
Judy Garland Show had fourdifferent formats and it ran for
one year.
So we decided we were going todo two episodes, and I'm very
excited because that way we canreally get into it.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
And the reason I don't like two episodes
audiences.
Everything we can see.
You guys don't mind Ipersonally, when I listen to
podcasts, I'm not wild can see.
You guys don't mind, Ipersonally, when I listen to
podcasts, I'm not wild aboutthem.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
That's the only reason, not that there's
anything wrong with them, it's apersonal thing.
Well, this is so special so Iappreciate it, I appreciate you
talking about it and Iappreciate and I'm a little
nervous because when I firstmentioned to Brad about the Judy
Garland show, he said to me oh,I think I saw it once and she
was drunk and I was like no, no,no, no, no.

(04:15):
That is like the antithesis ofthe Judy Garland show.
So I'm interested and a littlenervous about Brad, now that
Brad has watched some verifiableepisodes of the Judy Garland
show, what his take is and howhe's going to react to this show
, which means so much to me,brad.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
And I'm going to tell you we're not going to save it
till the end.
But I do want to say, regardingthe Judy being drunk, we and I
you and I talked it out and wethink it may have been a Jack
Parr episode.
Yeah, yeah, I think so, cause Idid search online and I
couldn't find anything on it.
And she Because I did searchonline and I couldn't find
anything on it.

Speaker 4 (04:45):
She was a little worse for substances on one of
those episodes but interestinglyyou mentioned the Jack Parr
show.
The Jack Parr show the firstappearance on Jack Parr show,
which we actually touched on abit during our Wizard of Oz
episode way back in our firstseason.

(05:06):
Judy's appearance on the JackParr Show, when she was so witty
and so funny and so bright andso off the cuff, was one of the
catalysts for CBS wanting to dothis show, because nobody ever
knew that Judy Garland couldtalk.
They knew she could sing butthey didn't know she could talk.
And she not only could talk,she was a brilliant raconteur
and a brilliant storyteller andthat's what CBS ideally was

(05:31):
going to showcase with thisseries.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
But we all know if you know the series, that didn't
go that way, yeah, so are youready for my opinion of the show
?

Speaker 4 (05:40):
Oh, we're not going to talk about it.
Are you just going to give methe opinion of I'm probably best
, because if I need to pull theplug on this podcast.
I need to know right now.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah, tony told me before we hit record that if you
didn't like this show, the showis over.
Um, okay, I'm going to.
I'm going to give you my honestopinion and then allow me to
qualify it.
Okay, let me put that.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
I'll tell you a quick story.
A few years ago, when I hadspinal fusion surgery, when I
was in the hospital in recovery,my neurosurgeon came in and I
told him I am known for beingreally good at tolerating pain.
This was absolutelyexcruciating and he said I told

(06:21):
you it was going to be painful.
And I said no, it is impossiblefor you to describe how painful
it is.
This show was worse Really, butit has nothing to do with Judy.

Speaker 4 (06:33):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
You know as well as I do, this show was fraught with
trouble in the background and itshows, yes, it shows yes, and
that is that.
I think the production wasawful and the directing was
awful, but I can't and I wasn'twild about all the songs, but
that's just a matter of taste.
I can't say anything bad aboutJudy.
I will say well, when we getinto the shows I'll talk about

(06:55):
her.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
No, I don't.
I think that's a very fairassessment, brad, and I don't.
I'm not offended by that at all.
I agree with you.
I am horrified is too strong aword.
I get so sad when I see what CBSdid to Judy Garland in this
show, mostly because and what'sso sad about it is it started

(07:19):
out so well.
It was such an incredibleoptimistic.
She was so excited.
She was so optimistic for thisseries.
And then the fact that therewas a bidding war, which we'll
talk about.
They finally got her servicesand then they wanted the Judy
Garland they saw on the JackParr show, this witty, funny,
off-the-cuff character, and thenthey prevented her from doing

(07:41):
any of that.
You're like what the hell waswrong with you people?
So I get that.
I feel the pain too.
I feel the pain too.
So when I watch this series,what I watch are the musical
sequences.
I watch the songs, becausehere's the thing, and that's why
this show is kind of mythic inthe Judy Garland legacy.
It's the only visualdocumentation of Judy singing

(08:08):
her signature songs in her lateryears.
We have records, we have CDs,we have all kinds of recordings,
but these are the visual.
This is Judy at her peak andit's the only preserved body of
work we have of Judy as a matureartist, not encumbered by a
plot of a film or playing a partin their MGM years, or a Star
is Born, and so that's what's sowonderful about this.

(08:31):
But what began with thisunprecedented excitement and
anticipation ended in a realmess, and I think what you're
saying is that Judy thateverybody said oh Judy will
never show up, oh Judy's such amess.
Judy was not at fault.
Judy had the best intentions.
It's what everybody else did toher, and that is what is

(08:53):
painful to me.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
Yeah, and from what I've seen is my understanding is
the only episode that shereally struggled and was
difficult for them to finish wasthe final episode and basically
she was distraught because sheknew what she knew the show had
potential and she, she wascrushed.
So I understand they said ittook forever to get that last
episode done.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
Yeah, they filmed until 5.
Am and they still didn't have acomplete episode.
She didn't understand what thefuck happened.
You know, she's like you guys,you, you know, you promised me
the moon and you gave me crap.
You know, um, it's, it'sstunning, but we're going to go
into all that.
We're going to go into that.
I want to, I want to bring usup to date a little bit about

(09:34):
how we got here, how we got tothe premiere episode of the judy
garland show.
Is that?
Does that work for you?
Sure, okay, I just and it'sreally really quick, just just
so we know where we're at and sowe can have a context for the
Judy Garland Show and JudyGarland's career.
So by 1963, judy was in thesecond year of a phenomenal

(09:56):
comeback.
She nearly died of hepatitis in1959, and she was actually told
by her doctors that she wouldbe a semi-invalid for the rest
of her life.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
And I got to say I've never seen the pictures of her
when she was so heavy, Maybe along time ago.
It doesn't even look like her.

Speaker 4 (10:16):
No, it doesn't at all .
Most of that was waterretention, yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
I knew that.
I learned that from realizingit was because she was so sick.
But I've seen people gainweight before and whatever.
That's not a big deal, but thefact that I didn't recognize her
.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
I was like which.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
one of them is her.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
It's stunning and I couldn't believe it, I mean
she's 4'11" and I think she wasup to like 160 pounds.
So, yeah, it was astounding.
But what's more astounding, ofcourse and it's all part of the
Judy legend is the doctor saidyou're going to be a
semi-invalid for the rest ofyour life.
Now, allegedly Judy's reactionwas whoopee.
She was so damn tired, she justwanted a break.

(10:56):
I don't blame her.
And no, no, no, no, no, no, no,that ain't going to fly.
That's not true at all.
The woman was, if anything, shewas a phoenix, and she was a
phoenix.
After that she did.
She was actually able to makethe biggest comeback of her life
, mostly due to Freddie Fieldsand David Biegelman.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
Now I'm going to stop you because you said you made
it sound like it was Judy'schoice.
As I understand it, judy waswiped out financially, not
because she wasn't a big star.
Everybody in her life wasrobbing from her right and left
Continually, which I know.
That part is true.
So it's unbelievable when I sawthe number of people that were
stealing from her.

(11:41):
So my understanding is shedidn't really want to get back
in.
She had no choice.
Was it a mix of the?

Speaker 4 (11:46):
two, when she was told she was in a semi-invalid,
she was like, okay, I'm going todeal with this.
She went to London torecuperate.
And then, the first time sheactually got in an airplane, she
was terrified of flying.
She got in an airplane, shewent to London, she was in
London for a couple of monthsand she goes.
I'm feeling pretty good.
Hmm, maybe I should try singing.
And she did.

(12:07):
And she look, she'd beenperforming since she was almost
two years old.
You know, that's who she was.
So there's no way she's notgoing to perform.
It's part of her.
It's when she was alive and sherealized, no, there's still a
lot of life here.
So she wanted to work.
She really wanted to work.
Once she was feeling good, andthat's when she met these two I

(12:29):
don't think of a good enoughword to describe them these two
characters, freddie Field andDavid Bugleman, who were two
down-on-their-luck agents whosoon became, because of her, the
most powerful power brokers inHollywood.
Now we talked about DavidBugleman briefly.
Brokers in Hollywood.
Now we talked about DavidBuegelman briefly.
Do you remember that when wetalked about high anxiety,
remember what I said aboutBuegelman?

Speaker 3 (12:51):
I remember us talking about him.
I don't remember the details.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
Well, buegelman was Judy referred to Buegelman and
Fields as Leopold and Loeb,which gives you an idea of how
they operated.
Okay, she referred to themlovingly that way and later on,
you know, with a good deal ofrancor, because she should have,
they were stealing blindly fromher, but they were, they were

(13:16):
actually, they were instrumentalin getting her on her comeback.
You had these two people whoeverybody said you said she was
never going to work again andthey couldn't get arrested as
agents.
And they found this woman whostill had a great deal of life
left in her and a great deal oftalent, and they exploited the
hell out of it.
But she wanted it, she wantedto work and she did a series of
concerts.
She was getting stronger andstronger and it all culminated

(13:38):
in that mythic Carnegie Hallconcert in 1961.
And then she did TV specialsand she did a TV special with
Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra in1962, which blew the roof off
of the Nielsen ratings.
It actually beat Bonanza andthat's something to remember
because we'll come back to.
Bonanza, and that's when ithappened.

(14:01):
That's when every Judy Garlandin 1962, 63 was the biggest star
in the world.
At that point She'd come backthat far, and that's when we had
the idea of oh, she needs to doa weekly TV series.
As I said before, people hadnever heard her talk, and so
there was, there was a biddingwar for her services.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
You knew that right, Yep.
All three networks were biddingfor the top three.

Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yeah, and unfortunately, as it turns out,
cbs won.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
And not cheaply.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
No.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
How much I had $24 million over four years.

Speaker 4 (14:39):
They told her Judy was going to be a millionaire.
They said you'll never have toworry about your kids, about
your security.
But this woman had beenuntethered since MGM, since she
was fired from MGM in 1950.
So she's like oh my God, I'llbe able to buy a house, I'll be
able to have security, I'll beable to send my kids to college,
I will be able to support myfamily.
It was a dream and I'd be amillionaire.

(15:00):
It was a dream for this womanwho worked her entire life, so
of course she's going to beincredibly excited.
So she formed King's RowProductions, which then owned
this series.
Now she was also married to SidLuft.
Still at this point theirmarriage was on its last legs
and she was married to Sid Luft,so he owned part of the show

(15:23):
too.
So Judy actually owned theseries when it was decided to go
into production and she decidedto go with CBS to make this
show.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
And that is something I found interesting, though
that part of the agreement inher payment is that she would
pay for production.
Is that correct?

Speaker 4 (15:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
No, she had a stake in it.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
She really did.
It's also why, when the showstarted to falter, there were
less and less scene pieces.
They reused costumes and therewere sometimes it would just be
two stools and a backdrop,because Judy's like this is
costing me money.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
I'm going to save as much money as I can.
I saw that they had a budget of$150,000 an episode and I
thought the sets were very, verysimple and I think that was
good.
It was a good look at that timeand it certainly worked well on
black and white.
So I assumed, oh, it must havebeen everybody's salary, because
she had some big time stars, asyou know, on there.

(16:15):
So I am surprised they had tocut back on the sets and that
sort of thing.

Speaker 4 (16:19):
Well, that's when the show was faltering and she
realized I got to save as muchmoney as I can because I ain't
gonna have this show in a yearyou know what I mean.
And she was thinking she boughtthe house.
She bought a house inrockingham and brentwood she had
.
The kids were in school.
So she's like I gotta save asmuch money as I can because this
show is obviously not going tobe the dream I thought it was
going to be and it's funny inthe earlier bad episodes jerry

(16:39):
van dyke did that whole skitwhere he's talking about we need
to save money on the.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
That later became true.

Speaker 4 (16:48):
Oh, it was so true.
Oh, jerry Van Dyke.
God, it's so sad, it's so sad.
So an incredible team wasbrought together to produce this
show, most importantly a34-year-old producer named
George Slaughter, who, by theway, is still alive today.
Yeah, I noticed that.
It's amazing, right?
And George Slaughter probablynow is most famous for producing
Laugh-In.

(17:09):
And Slaughter's idea was thatJudy Garland was not a performer
, she was an experience.
He felt she was an event and heenvisioned top-of-the-line
guest stars, high-classproduction values and basically
a series of weekly specials.
Now, this went against thegrain of most variety shows at

(17:35):
the time.
For example, gary Moore.
Cbs had a huge hit with theGary Moore show.
Cbs didn't want this weeklyseries of specials.
They wanted a homespun type ofgirl next door type of show, and
Judy Garland was not the girlnext door.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
No, and this show is not the girl next door show at
all.

Speaker 4 (17:58):
Well, in fact, judy joked about it.
She said that they couldn'tfind the right house, let alone
the right door.
There was just no way you weregoing to.
But the good thing is is thatCBS let Slaughter have his head.
They're like go ahead and do it, because even from the
beginning they didn't think shewas going to show up.
They didn't think she was goingto be reliable.

(18:19):
Now why would you spend so muchmoney to hire somebody and
create this series if you don'thave the confidence and the
faith in them to do what you'repaying them all this money to do
?

Speaker 3 (18:28):
That's what I'm thinking as you're saying.
Them Like they offered her $24million and they had no faith in
this.
It's crazy Did they just havemoney to burn at that time.

Speaker 4 (18:35):
You know, why didn't you just go with NBC?
I mean, that's what's soamazing to me, it's so mind
boggling.
It's what's so tragic andpainful, as you said, when we
started it, when we started,it's what's so tragic and
painful is they gave her just,they undercut her, they
undermined her at every possiblestep.
Why?
Well, I'll tell you why thisseries.

(19:01):
There's a real kind of like aGreek tragedy feeling with this
series, because we have acomplete cast of real malevolent
characters behind the sceneshere who really, really set out
to destroy this show and Judy.
And I'm just going to give youa couple of them.
First of all, we have Mike Dan.
Mike Dan was the head ofprogramming at CBS and we talked
about him in our Mary TylerMoore episode.
He was the programming geniuswho wanted to place Mary after

(19:24):
Hee Haw Do you remember when wetalked about that?

Speaker 3 (19:27):
Yes, yeah, so that gives you an idea of his taste
level, right there.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
We have Hunt Stromberg Jr, who was a CBS
executive.
He was a son of a Hollywoodproducer and he had a pet monkey
I'm not making this up.
He had a pet monkey that wenteverywhere with him and Judy
said she didn't know who to talkto him, or the monkey that went
everywhere with him and Judysaid she didn't know who to talk
to him, or the monkey.

(19:52):
But he had an annoying habit ofcalling her Judes, which she
hated.
He'd say, hey, judes, what'sgoing on, judes?
And so she got a nickname forHunt too, which I don't think.
You have to think too hardabout what her nickname for Hunt
was.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
It's the one word you never say, you never say.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
So we had Hunt Stromberg Jr.
We had the insecure,egotistical and misogynistic
singer Mel Torme.
Now Mel Torme is a songwriterhe's most famous for.
Do you know what he's mostfamous for?
Brad no.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
What song?
No, I know Mel Torme, but Idon't know what his most famous
song is.

Speaker 4 (20:30):
He wrote the Christmas song.
He wrote Chestnuts Roasting onan Open Fire.
I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
I probably did it one time.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
So he's also nicknamed the Velvet Fog.
Judy called him the Velvet Smog, but he wrote special material
for Judy and he was fired fromthe Judy Garland show near the
end of its run and he wrote aterrible book about the show,
which was actually the firstbook to come out after Judy's
death, which kind of put a pallover this whole series.

(20:59):
And finally we have the mostMachiavellian character of all.
We have James Aubrey, who wasthe president of CBS and he was
pretty much universally hated byeverybody.
He was nicknamed the SmilingCobra and not only did he bring
about the destruction of theJudy Garland show in 1969, he

(21:22):
took over MGM and he wasresponsible for trashing it and
selling off the back lot and allthe props and turning MGM into
a hotel business.
This is a real reprehensiblecharacter, and these people were
the ones in charge.
That's what's so sad.
So no wonder.

(21:43):
No wonder she was constantlybeing undercut by all these
people, but she didn't know thatwhen the show was starting
being undercut by all thesepeople, but she didn't know that
when the show was starting,okay, everybody was just really
optimistic and excited aboutthis first show in this brand
new television series, and Icould see why I mean, especially
after the huge hit that her andSinatra and Dean Martin did.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
I can see why everybody was like we need this
woman.
You not only said it'd bebonanza, my understanding was
that it was their highest ratedshow CBS had had up to that
moment.
Oh my God, yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:12):
Yeah, that 62 special was huge and it did beat
Bonanza.
So CBS thought, oh great, wefinally have something to
counter program against, toprogram against Bonanza.
And so they, they gave her thattime slot against Bonanza for
the series and at this timeBonanza was the number two rated
show on television.

(22:32):
So Judy Garland has taken onthe Bonanza boys, the Ponderosa
boys, in this series.
But everybody had high hopes.
They're like, if anybody canbeat them, judy can, and
unfortunately that was one ofthe reasons why the show didn't
work.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
I want to run through some of the other top shows.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
The top 10 shows of 1963 and 1964 was Beverly
Hillbillies, bonanza, dick VanDyke, lucy, andy Griffith,
petticoat Junction, danny ThomasShow, red Skelton, perry Mason
and the Donna Reed Show show,and we'll get to probably more
detail later.
But the reason I wanted tobring that out is, of the top 10

(23:11):
shows, all but one of them wereeither sitcoms or dramas action
dramas right, red skeleton isthe only one that was was not so
right, but you did have a lotof variety shows on the air.

Speaker 4 (23:25):
You had gary moore on the air you had jack benny on
the air I mean ed sullivan onthe air.
This was the era of the varietyshow yes, yes, I knew, I know
you know and you're going tohave.
If you're going to have JudyGarland, you're going to have
Judy Garland, obviously, in avariety show.
Um, so, it, it, it.
I guess what I want to say isit began with the best of
intentions, you know, but it andthat's what's so tragic about

(23:48):
this is everybody.
It had such a bright beginning.
Schlatter was on, and Schlatterhired a team.
Edith Head was designed to dothe costumes, and she had a
tendency, though, to put Judy inbrowns and blacks.
And Judy had just lost likealmost 100 pounds.
She looked so fantastic.
She hadn't looked that goodsince she was at MGM, and when

(24:11):
you see photos of the JudyGarland show, when you watch it,
you're like, oh my God, shelooks fantastic.
Well, she was only 40.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
She almost looks like Courtney Cox too thin.

Speaker 4 (24:17):
She was only 41.
I mean, that's the thing.
We're like wow, she looks great.
Well, she's only 41.
She died at 47.
She looked like she was 67.
But at this point she did lookgood so edith head was out and
they brought in a um, a designernamed ray agonian, and he was
hired to do the costumes.
And the reason I'm bringing upray agonian was because he

(24:40):
brought his young assistant withhim, his young assistant and
boyfriend with him, and his namewas robert mackie.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
I think I've heard of that man.
You've heard that before, yeah,before.

Speaker 4 (24:53):
Cher.
Before Carol Burnett and thecurtain rod dress, Judy was
wearing Bob Mackey, I thinkthat's pretty amazing.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, that is pretty amazing.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
So, along with this incredible ensemble of people
that Schlatter hired to supportJudy, she needed this was also
the time this was like a tropeof variety shows at the time she
needed the sidekick.
She needed air quotes.
Second banana Brad, who was hersecond banana.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
It was Jerry Van Dyke .

Speaker 4 (25:24):
He was the peel.
Actually, he wasn't the banana,he was the peel.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yes, and I don't know much at all about Jerry Van
Dyke.
I remember him a little bitfrom the Dick Van Dyke show.
He was a neighbor and then ofcourse I loved him on Coach, but
that's all I really knew of him.
This was the first time I eversaw him where I thought God, he
really looks just like hisbrother, dick.

Speaker 4 (25:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
But, oh my God, it was painful.
Every time he came out it wasjust like it was just awful.
In fact, I can't remember Ididn't write down who said it.
A critic said that he andGarland were like chalk and
cheese.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
And I see that's pretty accurate.
I don't even know what thatmeans.

Speaker 3 (26:08):
Well, I just, I didn't either at first and I
thought, well, if you ate themtogether they wouldn't be very
good.
So that's the only thing I canfigure out.
They were not a mix.

Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, that's okay, poor Jerry but who wrote this?

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Did he write his stuff or was?

Speaker 4 (26:19):
it written for him.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
No, there were writers who wrote this shit.
Okay, yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:35):
Because he didn't even seem like his heart was in
it.
Well, it wasn't.
He knew it was bad.
You know, that's the sad thingabout jerry van dyke.
Jerry van dyke knew it was bad,but jerry van dyke, he couldn't
do anything about it.
Yeah, think about it.
You know, this guy couldn't geta break.
Jerry van dyke, you know you're.
You're the younger brother ofone of the biggest stars in the
world at this time.
You know?
And who are you?
What do you do?
Well, they couldn't figure outwhat to do with him when the
show first started.
In the first series of shows,the schlatter shows he was this
buffoonish character.

(26:56):
He was kind of, you know, adorky, goofy guy.
It's not really lovable, but Imean he was at least tolerable.
And then, when schlatter wasfired and the second team came
in, they made him this obnoxious, know-it-all character and I'm
like, did you just not?
Did you not watch the firstfive episodes of this is a
completely different character,even worse.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
And then so yeah, and then he was gone and then he's
like well, that's the sad part,because not only was he dick van
dyke's younger brother, then hebecame infamous for for this
role.
I mean, the critics tore him toshreds.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
Well, not only that, after this he went into the
notorious sitcom my mother thecar oh, I forgot he starred in
that.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yes, yes, I mean, I'm serious, this guy could not
catch a break but at least it'stalked about to this day as one
of the worst tv shows ever.

Speaker 4 (27:44):
So people are still talking about it do you want
that headline in your bio, inyour opit?

Speaker 3 (27:50):
you know, I think of hallie berry when she won the
raspberry award for uh uh catwoman and she walked proudly on
that stage and accepted it maybeif there was one thing.

Speaker 4 (27:59):
But you have the judy garland show, you have my
mother the car he.
Finally, that's true, he finallygot a break with coach, thank
christ, because jesus, that poorguy, um, but.
But this was the problem.
You know, these writers wrotethis stuff.
These writers just could notfind funny.
They looked all over for it andthey just couldn't find funny.
If they'd only let judy be judyas she was on the jack par show

(28:23):
, they wouldn't have had toworry about it, because anything
that she would sayspontaneously was much funnier
than any of the crap they wrotefor her.
But they didn't trust her.
I don't know why.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Well, a lot of them criticized the self-deprecating
humor, and I actually likeself-deprecating humor.
I like it when big stars soundevery day and you know.
But it just wasn't good.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
Are you talking about , when they talk about her, how
she used to be fat?
Are you talking about her age?
Yeah, well, that was the second.
That was the jewish regime,which isn't part of the first
regime, but that wasn't her.
Those were the writers.
The writers were putting thatin and it's painful to watch her
be humiliated like that.
That's I don't.
I don't understand it.
Why didn't she say no, don't,no, I don't.

(29:06):
So it's maddening, it'sheartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking because thenshe would's heartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking Cause thenshe would go on and sing you
know, old man river, and andblow the roof off the studio.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
Well, one thing I did notice that I read a review and
they referred to the BobNewhart episode and I that's
what I was going to do and wetalked about it and I changed it
.

Speaker 4 (29:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
But yeah, they talked about how the self-deprecating
humor worked in that episode.
Yeah, and so I watched justthat skit where she and Bob were
watching each other, watchingthemselves on TV, playing other
characters and talking about howawful they were.
That was funny because it waswell-produced and well-directed.

Speaker 4 (29:42):
That was very funny.
That wasn't true.
That was one of the very fewfunny skits on this show.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
They also had new writers.
This was like the fourth seriesof writers that I brought in.
By the time they wrote that BobNewhart skit and Bob Newhart
had something to do with thattoo.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Well, I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
Bob Newhart was a brilliant comic and she loved
Bob Newhart and that is a veryfunny skit.
That's a very funny skit.
So what they did was they putthe Judy Garland show at a brand
new iconic now.
But at this time it was brandnew CBS television city in
studio 43, but it was a reallybad, bad choice for a variety

(30:18):
show because it had no soundagain, undermining the show at
every turn.
The studio, the stage was toosmall for the orchestra and the
stage was too small for theorchestra so they had to be over
at the side, so she couldn'tsee them, she could only hear
them you know what I mean.
And she had to rely on thedirector giving her cues for

(30:41):
when the orchestra was playing.
It's madness.
It's madness.
Now, when I worked on the CarolBurnett show 50th Anniversary,
we were in in studio 33, whichis where they now film the Price
is Right but where they filmedthe Carol Burnett show for years
and years and years.
Judy's show filmed at 43, and Igot to tell you that stage is
so tiny, it's true, it's so tiny.

(31:03):
You're wondering like where.
Their orchestra wasn't on theset of the Carol Burnett show
either.
They were off in a room in theback there was.
This studio was so bad, therewere no dressing rooms.
They literally had to airlift atrailer for judy for a dressing
room and dumped it somewhere onthe lot for her.
I mean, that's how insane thiswas.
But schlatter put a littlegarden around it and he painted

(31:26):
a yellow brick road from thestage to the dressing room, uh,
which she loved.
And on the door of the trailerit was said written.
It wasn't written judy garland,it was written the legend.
So they tried, schlatter, tried.
Schlatter was the real hero ofthis first series of episodes
and I want I want to point thatout.
And so it was announced thatthe Judy Garland Show would

(31:49):
premiere and the first guest waswho was her first guest?
Brad, one of your favorites.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Mickey Rooney yeah.

Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, you know, it was a natural choice that her
first guest be Mickey Rooney,because they were like family,
you know.
They were each other's biggestchampions and they'd known each
other since they were children.
So it was really kind of awonderful beginning to the
series.
But Judy was under a lot ofpressure and I wanted to tell a

(32:20):
very funny story that GeorgeSlaughter told about Judy in
this first episode.
First of all, he didn'texperience this diva-like terror
that everybody warned him about.
He just thought she was awonderful, funny, loving woman.
And then she started to gettense and he said and then I saw
it, then I saw the terror, andthen I saw this monster that

(32:41):
people had warned me about.
He said.
But he realized that the bestway to get her out of that mood
was to make her laugh, was tojoke her out of it.
Now Judy and this is true, thisis documented Judy loved fart
jokes.
She loved flatulence humor.

(33:04):
One time Mel Torme wanted tohire an impressionist and she
said she didn't likeimpressionists.
And he said why not?
And?
And she said they make me fart.
She loved fart jokes.
So slaughter rigged up thissound machine to play fart
noises on a chromatic scale andit was attached to the piano.
So when judy started to turnand get tense and started to get

(33:28):
into this, you know, into thisdiva-like character, he turned
to the piano player and he gavehim a nod and the piano played
over the rainbow in farts andJudy stopped and looked and fell
on the floor laughing.
So that's how you dealt withher.

(33:48):
You made her laugh.
I'm sure it was exhausting, butthat's how you dealt with her.
You made her laugh.
I'm sure it was exhausting, butthat's how you dealt with her.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
And you know it's funny.
Just a quick aside, because youmentioned she didn't like
Impressionists.
I did see that on the list ofstars you had on the show.
Rich Little was one of them.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
She did like Rich Little.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
And Rich.

Speaker 4 (34:02):
Little was brilliant on the show oh yeah, he was
brilliant all the time.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah, he was incredible.

Speaker 4 (34:13):
She did like rich little, but she didn't like this
impressionist that mel torme.
I think it was because it wasmel torme, because by this time
mel torme was really working herlast nerve and she's like I
can't deal with you, mel, Ican't tell you female.
So the filming was, thevideotaping was scheduled for
late june of 1963 with mickeyrooney as the primary guest star
, and that taping was, let me metell you, it was an event, it
was a star-studded event.
In the audience, lucille Ball,jack Benny, roddy McDowell, rock

(34:39):
Hudson, I mean, it was packedwith stars.
And now we're going to talkabout the first episode we're
going to talk about is the firstepisode with Mickey Rooney,
which was the first episodewe're going to talk about is the
first episode with MickeyRooney, but before we which was
the first one filmed.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Now I do want to say the seventh one filmed with
Donald O'Connor was the firstone aired and I kind of regret
that I didn't watch that one,because I know that this show,
the first episode was a hit andthen the second episode dropped
by 50%.
So I would have liked to haveseen what did the audience see
that said we're not coming back.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
Oh well, it's a pretty mediocre episode, but
yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
Well, I think this one was beyond mediocre.
You know how I feel aboutMickey Rooney.
Yes, I do.
I was aghast.
I was like no wonder this showdidn't make it.
I didn't like any of the songsyou know, judy's voice just
makes me melt but they were.
All there was.

(35:36):
No, it was all very soft.
Most of it was very soft, verysimilar songs throughout.
And I got to admit I can't getpast Mickey Rooney.
I've never liked him from dayone when I was a kid.
I tried.
You know my mom put on theseold movies and I just couldn't
take Mickey Rooney.
So I tried to take my MickeyRooney blinders off and I still

(35:59):
didn't find it a very goodepisode, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
No, you know what.
Here's the thing it's not areal episode.
It's a Frankenstein episodeBecause, as we said, it was the
first episode taped.
It was taped on june 24th 1963,but it wasn't the first episode
to air.
It wasn't the premiere episodebecause by the time they, by the
time schlatter was fired, theshow hadn't even premiered yet

(36:23):
they'd filmed, they've tapedfive episodes and the show
hadn't even premiered and therewas a new regime coming in.
So the second regime thereforecreated the premiere, which is a
really mediocre episode withDonald O'Connor, but this
episode was the event.
If you notice, in this episodethere's an overture and then

(36:43):
Judy comes out a very longoverture.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
I love the overture.

Speaker 4 (36:46):
But imagine so it's an overture.
It makes sense that it was thepremiere episode.
It was an event There'd be anoverture, but this episode aired
all the way in December.
So people are like, why is?
There an overture.
We've never seen an overturebefore.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, and I liked it.
I did like that as well, so Iwas surprised it went away.

Speaker 4 (37:00):
Originally Judy walked on and sang a song called
, so they taped.
Later on they taped a new songand I'm sure the episode that
you watched, as you watched theepisode that was aired.
She sings, I Feel, a SongComing On which was taped months
later and she looks different.
That's the thing about thisepisode is her look changes

(37:21):
because it's Frankenstein.
One scene was shot in November,another scene was shot in
January, I mean, and it's allkind of hodgepodge into this
show.
But what I love about this show, see, I do love the music, but
when you talk about the sound,it was because of the
limitations at CBS televisioncity.
Sometimes you can't hear her.
You're like you got JudyGarland.

(37:41):
Judy Garland's the last, one ofthe last of the big belters, as
Ethel Merman says later on.
You can't hear Judy Garland isthe sound, and what is wrong
with these people?
You have this greatest singerof her generation and we can't

(38:02):
hear her.
So did you not like, when theSun Comes Out, her first big
number by herself after MickeyRooney was introduced?

Speaker 3 (38:07):
To be honest, I don't remember it specifically.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
I love when the sun comes out.
I think it's uh, she's a littlenervous in the beginning of it,
but I think it is one of myfavorite performances of forever
and she would later repeatsongs later in the series
because of the sound problemsand this was one of the ones
that she repeated and it'sbetter this time I do remember
the song now and part of thereason I don't remember is

(38:30):
because I enjoyed the followingtwo so much better than this
episode as far as the songs goPart of it.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
I was distracted because it sounds like this show
was not lip synced and Ithought for sure it was at the
beginning because and I thinkit's because the only video I
could find of this episode hadbeen remastered to make it sound
like stereo and I thought, wow,they were lip syncing.
I thought towards the end ofthe episode I thought maybe

(38:58):
that's because why, and thenlater episodes I could tell that
she wasn't lip syncing.
Am I correct in that?

Speaker 4 (39:04):
Very interesting.
You bring that up.
So yes and no, okay, so I Feela Song Coming On is lip synced.
She pre-recorded it because atthat time they were going to do
an album of songs from the show.
So in later episodes many ofher opening numbers and many of
her solos are pre-recorded andshe's lip syncing.

(39:25):
But this was before that.
So when you see something thatwas shot later and then inserted
in this episode, it'sprerecorded, she's lip syncing
but, like when the sun comes out, not lip sync, she's singing it
live and you can tell um, theborn of the trunk, the trunk
songs at the end of the episode.
We're all live.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
Okay.
Which is one of the reasons whythey're so fucking brilliant, um
, but yeah, I guess at first Ididn't think she had a real uh,
sending share show was notfilmed in front of a live
audience, just small segments ofit were.
Parts of it were, yeah, andwhen I watched this show in the
early parts they never showedthe audience.
So I thought, oh, this must bethe way they did it.
Even when barbara trice andnathan merman which we'll talk

(40:03):
about later it seemed like theyhardly ever showed the audience,
so I actually thought this hadbeen done the same way, I was
surprised when I really learnedthat the audience was always
there.

Speaker 4 (40:12):
Always there, always there.
I mean, it was always a liveperformance, but yeah, many
songs were pre-recorded.
What did you?
So I probably know the answerto this, but what did you think
of the first time Mickey andJudy are together in the number
it's You're so Right For Me.
They sing, they dance, theyreminisce, they look at photos,

(40:32):
they talk and then they sing.
What did you think of thatlittle segment?
Didn't like it.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
I thought it was one of the worst directed things
I've ever seen in my life.
Really why?
Because?
I know this is what it wassupposed to look like, but it
didn't work.
For me it was like two friendsthat sat down and said let's and
they were reminiscing, throughtheir talk, their book.
That episode to me was only forthose that really enjoyed them
in the 30s and 40s, because it Ifound it dull.

(41:00):
One thing I did find in Judy atfirst I thought it was a sound
and I don't think it was Judywas not speaking up, she could
hardly be understood throughmuch of this and I thought, okay
, well, there must be a soundproblem.
But I noticed in each of theepisodes that was a problem and
it was only Judy.
One of the things that made meuncomfortable was she seemed

(41:21):
really uncomfortable.
She almost seemed like she wasafraid of Mickey Rooney, like he
was icky, like this guy's icky,and I know they would have been
together forever.

Speaker 4 (41:31):
But it was just very awkward to me it didn't seem
natural.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
I didn't get that.
It seemed very forced.
I found what they were talkingabout was boring.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
Well, you know, it's funny that you think it was
forced because it was ad-libbed.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Well, it seemed forced.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
Here's the thing.
It was ad-libbed.
What the writers did was theylistened to their conversations
during the week and then theywrote them down.
So that wonderful thing wherethey're looking at when they see
the flower.
they're looking throughproduction photos, publicity
photos from the 40s and whenthey were working together at
mgm, and there's a photo thatcomes up of judy with this
beautiful bouquet of roses andmickey says those are the

(42:06):
flowers they used to give you.
Uh, you know.
And judy goes yeah, one flowera year for every picture a year.
Yeah, a bud.
And then she throws the photo.
I think that's funny.
I think those ad libs are very,very funny.
But I understand what you'resaying.
She was incredibly nervous and,interestingly, yeah, that really
showed of the things that oneof the reasons why the format

(42:28):
changed was because CBS showedepisodes to viewer, to random
viewers and one of thoseresearch groups, you know, and
that's what people said.
People said she seems sonervous, she seems so edgy, she
touches people too much.
You know stupid stuff like that.
But that was a criticism ofmany people, which is one of the

(42:49):
reasons why the show got intotrouble, because because she was
was that nervous and it's ashame she was that nervous, but
you know she was nervous, shehad a lot riding on this, so I
personally love that skit well.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
I also saw that the audiences were skeptical.
As much as they loved judy.
The inquirer had beenplastering about her drinking
and her drugging.
So, even even though they lovedher, they were very skeptical
that this show would work.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (43:12):
if that's true, it makes sense to me.
Oh, they were very, veryskeptical.
She was under a microscope thelikes of which she'd never been
under before since MGM.
So, yeah, they were expectingher to fail.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
So if I had watched that, I sat there and I thought
is she on drugs?
I mean, I honestly did.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
And I don she under.
I mean I honestly did, and Idon't mean that, no she was just
nervous.
I think she was just nervous.
I find it charming.
Okay, I find it.
I.
I don't have a problem with it.
I find it charming.
I love her ad libs.
I think the thought the thingabout judy is is that she would
say these brilliant things, butshe would often say them under
her breath and so unfortunately,sometimes you lose it, like but
the bud thing was definitely,but sometimes she says things
which are hysterically funny.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
This episode I just this was painful.
It was really painful and Ithought what has Tony done?
And everything I said about howI respect her.
I think this episode I know youdisagree with me I think this
episode was an absolute trainwreck in every way, shape and

(44:09):
form, and I thought thefollowing two episodes were
going to be the same way.
They weren't nearly as awful asthis was.

Speaker 4 (44:17):
Okay, then we're going to skip over the Mickey
and Judy movie skit scene thatwas after this?

Speaker 3 (44:23):
Oh my God.
Yes, Because obviously youdidn't care for that, that was
shot much later she lookstotally different.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
Okay care for that.
That was shot much later.
Um, she looks totally different.
Okay, but I gotta go then to.
I mean, the piece de resistanceis the trunk sequence.
I mean she sings three songs.
She sings too late, now shesings who cares?
And finally she finishes withold man river.
Now, I saw this when I was akid pbs aired it and after she

(44:52):
sang old man river, I literallycould not move.
This is one of the mostbrilliant live performances ever
captured on tape.
Now, I agree with some of yourcriticisms about the bad writing
in the show and the fact thatshe was nervous.
However, this I will not budgeon.

(45:14):
This is one of the mostbrilliant performances on TV
ever.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
I can't say anything bad about judy singing.
I I will say sometimes I haveissues with their choice of the
songs, but my god, she wasgorgeous.
And that that's just a personalopinion.
Mickey's were all songs thatare reasons I did not like him.
But no, she was gorgeous.
I, I, I can't everything atthat end.

Speaker 4 (45:37):
I agree it was beautiful yeah, well, the thing
about the the trunk sequence isis the end of the show.
It's based on Born in the Trunk.
She stands at the trunk,sometimes she tells stories,
sometimes she just sings, so TooLate.
Now was a number that she wassupposed to sing at a royal
wedding, but then she got firedfrom a royal wedding and she
said, fuck you, I'm going tosing it on my TV show.

(45:58):
And she did from royal weddingand she said, fuck you, I'm
gonna sing it on my tv show.
And she didn't.
She's brilliant.
It's beautiful songs.
Very, very quiet.
Um, who cares was?
It was from carnegie hall, itwas just filler.
But old man river, I mean.
So she insisted on singing.
Closing the show with old manriver and cbs is like what you
want to sing old man river?
The only other, only one otherwoman had sung old man river and

(46:19):
that was Rosemary Clooney.
And she's like, yeah, I want toend the show with Old man River
.
And this is why it's abrilliant choice to me, because
when Judy sings Old man River,it ain't about toting barges and
about lifting bales, it's aboutlife.
The river is a metaphor for herlife, not only life, but her

(46:39):
life.
The river is a metaphor for life, not only life but her life.
So when that camera there's acamera cut, and when she says I
get weary and sick of trying,I'm tired of living and scared
of dying, I mean, my God, it'sher life, it's personal, you
know.
That's why it's so impactful.
And then she, when she hitsthose last notes and she just

(46:59):
opens up, I go on an emotionaljourney with her in that and
it's hard for me to come backbecause I'm so incredibly moved
by this, by this performance.
I mean, think about it.
It's a tiny woman standingalone on stage in black, no
scenery behind her.
She doesn't even have amicrophone and she reaches out

(47:24):
to you from a 60-year-oldvideotape.
To me personally, and I'm somoved by that performance, it
gives me goosebumps every time Iwatch it.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
Okay, well, let me make you feel better here,
listener, if you don't like thesong Old man River, you probably
aren't hearing somebody thatsings it well, because it's not
a very good song unless somebodyknows how to sing it.
But if somebody can sing itright, it's a beautiful song.
And Judy did hit that out ofthe ballpark.
Yeah, there was so much emotionin that, so much fear.
I will agree with you 100%.

(47:54):
Now you have me curious, thoughI'd like to hear Rosemary
Clooney's version.
It's not as good.
I love Rosemary.

Speaker 4 (48:00):
Clooney, I've said before, there are certain songs
where Judy gets this look on herface like she's saying to the
audience I don't know what'shappening here either.
It's like she has no controlover it.
It's like this vessel, she'sjust a vessel for this entity
that is that's coming throughher and she has no control over

(48:23):
it, and that that entity is hertalent.
It's just she, she.
And this is one of thoseexamples where she's like she
has no control over it.
She just has to let it go and,oh my god, it, it, it.
You know I get chills talkingabout it.
I just I think it's one of thegreatest moments in TV history.
It's worth all the mediocrecrap in the rest of this episode

(48:44):
just to have her sing old manriver at the end of this episode
.
So CBS wanted Judy to closeevery episode with over the
rainbow.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
And she said, yeah, you told me that and I'm so glad
she stood her ground.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
She said hell, no, hell, no.
She said yeah, you told me thatand I'm so glad she stood her
ground.
She said hell, no, hell, no.
She said I don't want people tolose whatever special feeling
they have for Over the Rainbow.
She goes I have a perfect songto close this show and that song
was Maybe I'll Come Back.
And it's such a great, it's agreat choice, because it's a
send up of her image.
She's saying maybe I'll comeback.

(49:19):
You know that old, unreliableJudy, maybe I'll come back,
maybe I will.
And that's how the episode ends.
And there was a big party afterthe episode.
Everybody thought they had ahuge, huge hit.
Everybody was very optimistic.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
They were golden.

Speaker 4 (49:36):
They thought we're set.
This is incredible, because itreally was a very successful
taping.
We look back at it now and welook at these stupid jokes.
I mean there were things thatwere cut which were even
stupider than what actuallyaired.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
Oh, thank God.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
With Mickey Rooney and Jerry Van Dyke, but at the
time everybody thought it wasgreat.
So they continued in this vein.
They taped four more episodesOne there's a wonderful episode
with Liza, which is reallybeautiful.
There's an episode with LenaHorne, with Tony Bennett, and
then, out of the blue, cbs firesGeorge Slaughter and his entire

(50:12):
production team.
It's like boom gone.
Nobody knew it was happeningand it was sudden.
And it was like it was likethat.
You know what's that?
Massacre in Dynasty, theMoldavian massacre.
Suddenly, you don't have a jobanymore, you're fired.
And it's because CBS realizedthat Judy was going to start

(50:33):
showing up.
They're like, oh wait, she'sreally becoming reliable, she's
really actually doing this.
Okay, then we got to change theshow and, as I said, they did
the research and people weresaying that she seemed too
nervous, she touched people toomuch.
So what they wanted to do isthey wanted to bring her down
from this pedestal thatSchlatter had put her on as a

(50:54):
legend and make her the girlnext door, make her more of a
run-of-the-mill variety showhost.
And that's what they tried todo.
And they turned to NormanJewison, who was a former TV
director.
He was now doing films andlater on.
He did In the Heat of the Night, he did Feather on the Roof, he

(51:16):
did Moonstruck and I likeJewison, I do.
He loved Judy, he adored Judy.
But I don't think he was rightfor this show because I think he
really really bought into thatwhole let's dumb it down thing.
Let's make her ordinary.
And Judy Garland was notordinary, she was an event.

(51:37):
That's the way I feel about theSchlatter episodes versus the
Jewison episodes.
What are your ideas about that?

Speaker 3 (51:44):
Well, there is actually one of the skits that
she did with Jerry Van Dyke.
I can't remember what theyspecifically said, but he made
fun of the fact that she'ssupposed to be this elegant star
and she was showing that shewasn't.
Now, maybe that was part ofthat whole thing.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
That was part of the whole thing.
That was from the secondepisode.
That's the Jewess in regimethat was bringing her down to
earth.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
Yeah, they didn't try to just make it subtly, he just
flat out said it.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
Oh, it's terrible.
They make jokes about herweight.
They make jokes, like I said,they called her a little old
lady.
She's 41 years old.
Yeah, little old lady, what's anice little lady like you do.
This is an.
This is the 35th Judy Garlandthe original Judy Garland, went
over the rainbow years ago.
I mean just stupid, stupidthings, and Jerry Van Dyke's
character went from a somewhatlovable buffoon to an absolute

(52:32):
asshole yeah, an idiot.
And you're like, did you notwatch these?
I don't, I don don't understandthat.
Jewison said he felt that judyshouldn't be doing a weekly show
.
He said she was too special,it's a mistake for her to do it
anyway.
But he wanted to help judy out,so he agreed to do eight
episodes to get her to 13 so shecould be renewed, because that

(52:53):
was the magic number 13 and yougot renewed for another 13, um.
So he agreed to do it and he umwent along with cbs and went
along with this new format andthat's the.
That's the format of the nextepisode we are going to talk
about, episode number nine,which was taped on october 4th

(53:14):
1963 and aired two days later onoctober 6th 1963.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
You're so thrilling, so absolutely thrilling.
I must say that we've got allyour albums at home.
You know, and you're so goodthat I, I hate you, I really
hate you.
You're so good, oh, julie,that's, that's so sweet of you,
thank you, you know, you're sogreat that.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
I've been hating you for years.
In fact, it's my ambition to begreat enough to be hated by as
many singers as you.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
That's a nice thing for you to say.
I love it.
Say more, oh.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
I love you.
I love you too, but don't stophating me.
I need the confidence.
No, no, no.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
And if you ever get a little, you know, feeling of
lack of security, call me on thephone and sing a couple of
notes to me and I'll give youhatred like you've never gotten.

Speaker 4 (54:17):
They had a certain guest star, and who was that
guest star?
Brad.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
Well, it was a 21-year-old young woman who I
actually was shocked to hear shewas only 21.
She looked older but she lookedfabulous.
And that was a Miss BarbaraStreisand.
Talk about the gayest moment ontelevision Barbara Streisand
and Judy Garland in one showtogether.
The only thing they could havehad was Cher, and she would have
been too young.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
Well, they had up a merman, so you're getting pretty
close there.
Oh, that's true, that's true.
Yes, it was indeed, but therewas.
This is what's so funny aboutthis episode, which is, of
course, we're going to talkabout this episode because it's
one of the most famous episodesin TV history.
Yes, who else was on the show?
Everybody forgets the SmothersBrothers.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
Oh my God, yes, my problem with the Smothers
Brothers.
They did their normal skits,but they're known for being edgy
, and this was a few years tooearly to be edgy on television,
so I just-.
This was before the edge, yeah,so that it didn't go over as
well as I thought it should have.
It was cute, but it wasn'tgreat.

Speaker 4 (55:24):
Well, it's a funny thing is is that everybody
forgets the Smothers Brotherswere on this, because
everybody's like, oh, judy andBarbara, and oh, my God, ethel
Merman too.
You know it's funny, it's likeyou know, when the sun is
shining, how can you see thestars?
So it's like people forget.
So the Smothers Brothers canalways say, hey, we were on one
of the most famous TV shows intelevision history.

(55:47):
And then they can say, butnobody remembers we were on it.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:52):
I like them in this.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
And here's a little funny tidbit they were good.
I didn't say they were bad,but-.

Speaker 4 (55:56):
They're charming, they're charming, they're always
charming, they're alwayscharming.
I didn't say they were bad, butI wish it was.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
They're charming, they're charming, they're always
charming, they're alwayscharming.
My God, so young.
Now they made a joke about Judybeing old, but it worked for me
because they look like they're15.
Well, they don't look thatyoung, but they were very young.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
Well, no, tommy's hair is definitely receding.

Speaker 3 (56:10):
Well, yeah, but I lost mine early too.

Speaker 4 (56:14):
Did you?
No, I didn't know that.
Like a year before.
Yeah, so when she looks at himyou can kind of tell she really
liked Tommy.
She was obviously with ElliotGould at this point, but she,
yeah, she has.
They dated.
If Barbra Streisand dates, theydated.
So yes.
And also Jerry Van Dyke yes,and a special appearance by the

(56:37):
Merm.
So what did you think of thisepisode, brad?
This is under the new NormanJewison regime.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
Well, if you thought I thought the first episode was
bad, this one takes and I'mactually joking this was a much
better episode.
So you agree with CBS.
Oh, they didn't like it.
Well, I know, they did not wantit on.
They said it had something todo with Barbara Streisand.
Now, I know she wasn't verywell known on television.
Is that why?
Because she was mainly known onstage.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
No, I don't know.
Nobody knew who she was.
Some people knew who she was.
What happened was she wasplaying she had just she's
playing the Coconut Grove.
It was right before she hadjust signed to do Funny Girl and
she was really taking off.
And she had played the CoconutGrove in Hollywood and Judy went
to the last night of the showand I mean everybody was there.

(57:27):
It was an event.
Who is this woman, who is thisgirl?
And she started to sing andallegedly Judy turned to the
people she was there with andsaid I'll never open my mouth
again.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
I mean that's how good she was there with and said
I'll never open my mouth again.
I mean, that's how good she was.
And that clip of the duet withBarbra Streisand and Judy it's
so iconic and I'd seen it athousand times and it's just
amazing.
I had no idea that came fromthis show.

Speaker 4 (57:53):
Oh, really, you didn't huh.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
When I saw Barbra come out and she was wearing an
outfit if it wasn't the same, itwas similar in that duet I'm
like oh, this is that show thatshe was on.
Yeah, exactly yeah.
I had no clue.
It was from the Judy Garlandshow.
Did you know?
It was Judy's idea.
No, I didn't know that, but itdoesn't surprise me, because who
wouldn't want to do it withBarbara Streisand?

Speaker 4 (58:13):
Well, actually I no, not just the duet.
Putting the two songs togetherwas Judy's idea.
Oh no, that was a good move.
I really liked that.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
It was, it was amazing, it was amazing.

Speaker 4 (58:23):
The story is that she was in her dressing room and
she was playing Barbara's HappyDays Are here Again and she
called Mel Torme in and she saidlisten to this.
And she was playing the recordand she started to sing Get
Happy at a very slow tempo andthat's how it all came together.
And it's it is.

(58:43):
It's one of the most amazingmoments in tv when they open up
at the end and they really beltit out.
Oh my god, it is, it'sphenomenal.
It's just you're watching, youknow, you're watching tv history
here.
It's amazing.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
And she was 21 years old 21, yeah yeah, I was amazed
when when she said that everyshe's what?
Because brilliant, brilliantyeah because when I knew heard
it was 1963 and I thoughtbarbara streisand, really.
And then they said she was 21years old and I said well, that
makes sense.
But I it was a little earlierthan I thought she broke out in,

(59:13):
in on the big screen yeah, sofunny girl hadn't started yet.

Speaker 4 (59:17):
uh, the broadway had not.
Broadway version of Funny Girlwas just about to start and you
know it's so funny.
This was the second episode inthe series to air and it was so
noteworthy that the newspapersreviewed the show twice.
They had to review it againbecause everybody was talking
about this episode, about thisgirl, this girl who showed up

(59:38):
for rehearsal and nobody knewwho she was and she was in a
sundress and sandals and stringyhair and then she opened her
mouth and people were gobsmacked, as the Brits say, uh,
listening to this, listening tothis girl sing, so it's a
wonderful.
It's a wonderful episode Again.
The jokes, the humor they justcouldn't find funny.
It's just bad, bad humor.

(59:59):
Making fun of judy is not funny, but the music uplifts it.
Barbara singing an incredibleversion of bewitched, bothered
and bewildered, which she neversang as beautifully before or
since I mean it's pure, it's, ohmy god, it's beautiful.
and then singing that happy days, get happy with judy, just you
know it's a gay iconic moment,it really is.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
It really is, and this episode emphasizes to me
why this show failed.
And we'll get to that.
But it's not because this is abad episode.
When I mentioned to you thatI'm not a fan of Ethel Merman,
but I am a fan of Ethel Merman,you said, oh good, this is going
to make it interesting.
And watching this made merealize I love Ethel Merman, her
comedy.
I love her when she plays arole.

(01:00:43):
I've never been a fan of hersinging and when she's by
herself, I probably still am nota fan.
I really enjoyed her music, bothin this one and, I will say, in
the next one as well, but shejust they joke.
Both in this episode and theother episode where she's a star
, they joke about her belting itout, and that's what I really
don't like.
I wish I could remember.

(01:01:03):
There's a song that was on theradio the other day and I told
her I just don't like this song.
It's a hit song, but allthey're doing is yelling and
that's why I feel about EthelMerman.
I know the others will disagreewith me.
She's just not a type of musicthat I really enjoy.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
I don't disagree with you at all.
I think she does.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
That's Ethel Merman, but I think she could be
hysterical.
There was a Lucy episode that Iloved her in.

Speaker 4 (01:01:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, one of the reasons, ethelwas quote in the studio
audience.
So there's a surprise visitfrom Ethel Merman when Barbara
and Judy are talking and thensuddenly Ethel starts singing
from the audience.
It's because and then suddenlyEthel starts singing from the
audience is because Ethel Lucywas trying to get a.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
TV show for Ethel.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
They were good friends.
She appeared on the Lucy showand she's trying to get Ethel to
do a.
She was trying to get a sitcomgoing for Ethel but it never
flew, so that's why Ethel was inHollywood at this time.
It's kind of funny how it allcomes together.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
But yes, Ethel, no, an Ethel sitcom would have been
good.

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
I think Nobody bought it.
It was called Maggie Flynn andnobody bought it.
So anyway, she went back toBroadway, but yeah.
So Ethel joins them in animpromptu version of, as Judy
says, another brilliant lineAdlib.
Why don't we sing somethingwe're all famous for?

(01:02:14):
They sing.
There's no Business Like ShowBusiness.
And for the first and only timein her life, you cannot hear
barbara streisand.
You just can't.
the only time she would ever nothear streisand was these two
other powerhouse belters singingnext, barbara probably wishes
that was burned well, barbarahates that, hates that she's

(01:02:36):
talked, she talks about in herbook she's first of all, she
hates the song there's nobusiness like show Show Business
.
And she's thinking what am Idoing up here?
I mean, she loved Judy, don'tget me wrong.
But she thought the whole thingwas cheesy and she did not like
it.
But you know there was nocompetition between these two
women.
Judy viewed Barbara as a great,great new talent and Judy

(01:03:07):
viewed it as it made her better.
She was not competitive, youknow.
It's like they say about tennis.
You know you want to improveyour game, you play with a
better player.
Mort Lindsay, who was themusical conductor on the Judy
Garland show, said Judy neversang better than when she was a
Streisand because she wasinspired.
She knew she had to raise hergame and for her part, barbara

(01:03:29):
said that she was so touched byhow generous Judy was to her.
She said she reached out to meand she was shaking and she said
I thought at the time she'sJudy Garland, why is she nervous
?
And she said I thought at thetime she's Judy Garland, why is
she nervous?
And she said.
And then later, as I got older,I realized why she was nervous.
You know you have everything tolose and Streisand was 21.

(01:03:49):
She had nothing to lose.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
I can imagine 21 years old and Judy Garland
reaches out to you and says Iwant you on my show.

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
Can you imagine?
I mean you're 21.
That's amazing.
But Barbara, being Barbara,knew she could do it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
And you could definitely tell throughout the
whole episode that they had sucha huge respect for each other.

Speaker 4 (01:04:08):
Yes, barbara said that Judy's vulnerability
touched her very deeply for therest of her life and she never
forgot it.
And actually, after the showaired, they met at a party a
couple years later and judy tookher aside.
And this was after funny girlhad become a huge success and
she started doing her tvspecials and she said to barbara
she said, don't let them do toyou what they did to me, which I

(01:04:31):
think is like wow, isn't thatamazing?
I just this whole, this wholeepisode, the.
The episode is bad, yes, it'sbad, but having Streisand and
Garland together, and not justin the gay world but in the
entertainment world, is one ofthe greatest, greatest moments
ever captured on film, right upthere with Old man River.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
Yes, Now do you want?
To hear why I think this showis a good example why this
entire show failed.
You keep referring to this as avariety show and I don't see it
as a variety show.
I see this as a.
I see every episode that Iwatch as a Judy Garland and
guest concert.

(01:05:13):
And now people may think that'sa wonderful thing, but here's
the thing I want to talk about,my favorite band.
But before I mention myfavorite band, I want to qualify
this for people.
When I'm doing things aroundthe house or whatever, I'm
either listening to podcasts orI'm listening to classical music
, or I'm listening to jazz orI'm listening to opera.
I love music across the board.

(01:05:34):
I can't think of a single typeof music I don't like, except
for old time country westernmusic, but even country music.
One of my favorite nights was ata honky-tonk in the middle of
nowhere in in Nebraska, becauseit was just beautiful music.
So, that having been said, myfavorite band is Nirvana.
I am a Nirvana fanatic, but doI want to watch a Nirvana

(01:05:57):
concert every single week?
And the answer is no.
I would have liked to have seenmore skits, like the Bob
Newhart and Judy skit.
I would have liked to have seenthat more breaking things up.
And it was just one afteranother song, song, song, which

(01:06:19):
was not what I expected and Ipersonally didn't enjoy it.
It's just, I wanted more skits.

Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
So you would agree with Norman Jewison in the fact
that Judy never should have donea weekly show, because it was
just I agree 100%.
She was too special.
She was not made for a weeklyshow.
She was not made for it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
yeah, when you said that I was saving it because I'm
glad you brought that back up,when you said that, that was my
very first thought I thought,wow, I agree with him 100%.
She is not a once a week thing.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
Well, yeah, she's an event, she was an event and the
experience of her is somethingthat you know.
You get in small doses.
That's why when I watch theshow now I just watch those
segments that I love.
I skip over the stupid ones.
I go to old man river.
I go to happy days get here,get happy.
Um, I go to hooray for lovetheir duet.

(01:07:12):
They do in the gingham uh shirt.
They do with that stupid whenjerry van dyke takes away all
the scenery because he says theyhave no money.
It's so stupid.
But then they start singing andyou forget it.
You know you forget about itand, um, you see them working
together and how they somethingthat doesn't happen with ethel
merman, which we'll get to inour next episode, when we talk
about the ethel merman duet.

(01:07:33):
You see them reacting to eachother, you see them affecting
each other.
Judy makes Barbara sigh at onepoint and Barbara makes Judy
laugh.
I mean they're they'reinteracting, they're connecting.
It's so wonderful how theyreact together and it's real
magic.
Those are the episodes you want.
Those are the scenes you wantto see.
I don't need to see a stupidscene about Jerry Van Dyke and a

(01:07:56):
stuffed bear and Mickey Rooney.
I don't want to see cats.
It's terrible.
It's terrible.
But the music, but it's a lot.
It's a lot to take and I'vegiven you an assignment to watch
these episodes, one after theother, so you know, it's a lot
and uh.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
One thing I really enjoyed is I love it when you
watch the star.
Who knows they are hitting themark yeah and you could see that
with this oh, yeah, and I justI just love that.
And even even at the moment,the three of them just knew this
is going well.
This is going well, it's amagic moment.

Speaker 4 (01:08:31):
It really is a magic moment when the three of them,
even though barbara didn't likeit, barbara didn't like being
called the new belter.
I mean, she's 21 years old, youknow, she, she, you, she had a
different idea, she played alongwith it well.
She did.
Well, she did yeah, because shewasn't stupid.
But you know what's somethinginteresting?
First of all, she was nominatedfor an Emmy for this appearance
and Judy was also nominated foran Emmy, so they were competing

(01:08:52):
with each other.
And after she did this guestshot, marty Ehrlichman,
barbara's manager, said you'llnever do another guest spot
again, that's it.
You can't top this.
And he was right.
How are you going to top?
Bewitched, bothered andBewildered?
How are you going to top GetHappy, happy Days?
You can't.
Yeah, it was brilliant.
So you know the second episodeout really amazing.

(01:09:15):
I really feel this is the bestof the Norman Jewison episodes.
He did eight and then he gone.
He kept his word.
The show got renewed for asecond run of 13 but he was out
of there and we come to thethird format.
But we're going to have to waituntil our next episode to talk

(01:09:39):
about the third and fourthformats of the Judy Garland Show
and a couple more episodes toround us out.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
And I look forward to those.
Do you?
I look forward to, yes, I do.
I look forward to talking aboutthe third episode.
I'm looking forward to talkingabout the third episode.
It's not the episode that Iwanted to watch, but I look
forward to talking about it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:59):
So we leave you, listener, in October of 1963,
when Barbara Streisand just madeher appearance on the Judy
Garland Show.
Brad, before we go, is thereanything else you want to say
about the series or about thepodcast?

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
I think everything I said about the series is done
for now, until we do the nextepisode.
You can just see I had alove-hate relationship with this
film, and mostly hate, and it'sjust because the production was
just awful.
Nothing to do with anybodythere, but I do have something
to say to the listener.
If this is your first or secondtime listening, we're not going
to ask much of you, butsubscribe.

(01:10:34):
We hope you subscribe and checkout some of our previous
episodes and listen to us in thefuture.
If you are listening again andagain and again and you're
listening up to the end, youlike one of us or both of us, so
why don't you go ahead andleave us a review?
Apple and Spotify make itreally easy.
Other formats do as well, butthey're the two biggest.
Leave us a review and telleverybody how much you enjoy our

(01:10:57):
show, so that they can find theshow as well.

Speaker 4 (01:11:00):
I think that's a great idea.
Well, brad, I guess for thisepisode there's only one thing
left to say, but I don't want tosay it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:08):
So let's not say goodbye, let's say au revoir,
and this time I'm going to giveit to you because we will be
back.

Speaker 4 (01:11:15):
Oh, maybe we will come back to you.
Bye everybody, Maybe Bye.

Speaker 3 (01:11:20):
That's all folks.