June 18, 2025 • 47 mins
Three producers. Four formats. One television season. “The Judy Garland Show” stands as a fascinating television tragedy that should have been a triumph.
In the second part of our special tribute to Judy Garland, we discuss the sad but inevitable decline of what was to be the climax of the legendary singer’s career. Network executives shuffled through producers, writers, and formats with bewildering frequency while Judy struggled to maintain her artistic integrity. Today, "The Judy Garland Show" serves as both a testament to Garland's extraordinary gifts and a cautionary tale about television's sometimes ruthless treatment of even its greatest artists.
Text us & We'll Respond on an Episode
Links to Tony's website, and Brad's website at www.goinghollywoodpodcast.com
Follow us on Instagram @goinghollywoodpod
Reach us at goinghollywoodpodcast@gmail.com
Listen to our Going Hollywood Playlist
Podcast logo by Umeworks
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Clip (00:04):
From Television City in Hollywood.
Here's Judy Applause.
Tony Maietta (00:15):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.
Brad Shreve (00:19):
And I'm Brad Shreve , who's just a guy who likes
movies.
Tony Maietta (00:22):
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.
Brad Shreve (00:28):
And, of course, being the average guy, my
opinions are the ones thatmatter.
Tony Maietta (00:34):
As does your self-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood.
Clip (00:40):
You know, a lot of crazy things happen on television and
things you never get a chance tosee actually.
And, for instance, we haveMartha Ray on the show this week
and well, a lot of thingshappened at dress rehearsal.
I thought you would like to seeshe just well, we didn't know
what she was going to do next.
I think you might be interestedin it.
You understand, here it is.
Tony Maietta (01:07):
Oh, we're back.
Brad Shreve (01:08):
Yes, we are.
Tony Maietta (01:09):
That didn't feel like 62 years.
Wait a minute, let me thinkabout that for a minute.
Because we left you in the lastepisode in October of 1963 with
the Judy Garland show featuringBarbara Streisand and Ethel
Merman.
(01:29):
And what was her names, thosebrothers?
Brad Shreve (01:34):
the mothers brothers, mothers, brothers.
Tony Maietta (01:36):
They were in that they were in that show too, and
we were in that show.
Brad Shreve (01:40):
And we did our movie in 62 years.
We're only going two monthsahead.
Tony Maietta (01:43):
We are.
We are Cause we're going backin time again, but I mean, right
now we're in this world, rightnow it's 2025.
But then we'll go back.
We'll go back, but we're notgoing to go back all the way to
October, because I threw Brad alittle curveball last night,
which I love to do, and I textedhim about what was it like 930?
Yes.
(02:05):
What was it like 9 30?
Yes, and I said watch this,we're going to talk about it.
And I thought I want, becausewe only have one more episode of
the julia garland show to talkabout.
We got through two and a lot ofme jabbering on and on and on
um well, that's no differentthan usual.
Well shut up, um, but we, um,your, your camera freezes, I
don't know, I just keep talking.
So we did two, we're gonna doone more, but I threw threw Brad
a curveball because I have alittle bonus content for you
(02:27):
listener.
I sent Brad a video fromepisode number 18 that was taped
on January 14th 1964 and airedon none other than Martha Ray,
and I felt so evil sending youthat video because I know how
(02:53):
you feel about Martha Ray.
Brad Shreve (02:56):
Two thirds of that show sound just delightful.
So Tony sent me this.
I'm like oh my God, why wouldhe send me Martha Ray,
especially late at night?
Tony Maietta (03:09):
You'll never get to sleep now.
Brad Shreve (03:11):
I actually I was busy at the moment so I was like
I'll go, I'll watch it later.
I actually kind of forgot aboutit and I watched it early this
morning.
Tony Maietta (03:17):
Well, I just want to give a little before you go
into it.
I just want to give a littlebackground about it.
Oh, yes, about it, because,listener, if you and I don't
know why you haven't listened toall of our episodes- but if you
listened to our Alice episode acouple of weeks ago, brad made
his feelings about Martha Rayvery clear.
Now I'm not quite as adamantabout Martha Ray as Brad is in
(03:37):
his opinions.
I actually kind of like MarthaRay.
I think she is funny, I thinkshe can be a little of her goes
a long way, true, but I happento think she has moments of very
funny and she has a great voice.
She has a great singing voice.
You can't deny that she was asinger.
She was a band singer, as Isaid in our Misery episode.
You know Bette Midler was kindof playing her and for the boys
(03:59):
at least, martha Ray thought sobecause she sued her.
So she's a comic, she's asinger.
She was a good friend of JudyGarland's and Judy, at this
point in the series, needed allher friends around her.
That's why Peter Lawford wasalso on.
And Judy Garland and Martha Rayhere's something I bet you
didn't know.
Brad shared something.
They had something in common.
They had a husband in common.
(04:20):
Judy Garland's first husbandwas David Rose rose and he was
also married to martha ray.
So these two knew each otherand they were good friends and
martha ray could make judy laughlike nobody else could, and I
think you kind of see this inthis little, in this little
scene, don't you?
Brad Shreve (04:38):
yeah you, they seemed to really did enjoy each
other's company.
Tony Maietta (04:41):
Certainly did so in this episode, judy and Martha
.
Among the things they dotogether is they do a Glenn
Miller medley, and it'sallegedly from the dress
rehearsal, because Martha Raykept just acting like Martha Ray
does.
She's just so outrageous.
And Judy did a specialintroduction to this saying you
(05:02):
know, we didn't know what shewas going to do next, because
she's just so outrageous andshe's so uncontrollable.
So that's what we're going totalk about is our little bonus
thing.
So, brad, lay it on me.
What were your thoughts?
Brad Shreve (05:13):
Well, first of all, Tony said that a little Martha
Ray goes a long way.
About two seconds of Martha Raygoes a long way.
However, I listened to thisfirst.
Clip (05:24):
Oh, you did.
Brad Shreve (05:25):
Well, I turned it on and I had other things going
on, so I got distracted.
I was doing all kinds of thingsand I was listening to it.
I thought this is reallyenjoyable.
I really enjoy this.
Both of them sound great.
It's a fun medley.
I really enjoyed it.
And then when it was done, Ithought you know, I didn't watch
(05:47):
it, so I need to watch it again.
Yeah, it was so much betterjust to listen to it.
Now, there were a couple oftimes that Martha Ray said some
things, but this one she kept.
She tried being a clown, shewas making faces, and I'm like
it was so much more enjoyablewhen I didn't have to look at
her and I don't mean that as faras Martha Ray being an
unattractive person, but justshe's doing these faces that
(06:07):
work with Lucille Ball but don'twork with Martha Ray in my
opinion.
So what you're saying is thatMartha Ray has a face for radio.
She has a singing voice.
I've never really paid thatmuch attention to her singing
voice.
I've heard her sing.
The two of them sounded greattogether.
I hate to admit it because Idon't like saying nice things
(06:30):
about martha ray, but I actuallyreally enjoyed that.
Tony Maietta (06:32):
I bet you're shocked.
No, no, no, no, she's awonderful singing voice.
Brad Shreve (06:33):
No, I bet you're shocked.
Tony Maietta (06:34):
I liked it oh, I'm , I'm no, I.
I kind of not really.
I kind of figured you wouldlike the sound of it.
I love that you listened to itand then watched it and you
didn't like watching it becauseto me it's the faces, to me, uh,
and it's the ad libs you know,it's the fact that this is
totally ad-libbed.
Judy didn't know martha wasgoing to be doing this stuff.
She just knew I'm going to besitting on a stool with this
(06:54):
kook.
Well, she had no martha's gonnado something.
She knew she was gonna dosomething, but who knew what?
And, as I said at this point inthe series, uh, we're getting
very close to the cancellationof the series and Judy needed
all the laughs she could get, soit was a really wonderful thing
to have her friend on herebreaking her up and kind of
lightening the mood.
I think my favorite.
So they sing a bunch of songsidentified with Glenn Miller.
(07:17):
They sing Pennsylvania's 6-5000, and Martha goes.
I forgot the telephone number.
There's some great outtakes, bythe way, that are available on
YouTube, which are very funny.
But the best part is Judy singsAt Last and as Judy sings, did
you know the song At Last,before this happened?
Brad Shreve (07:34):
My husband plays at least three times a week, but
not the Judy version.
Tony Maietta (07:38):
Yeah, At Last my Love has Come Along.
So it's a beautiful song.
And Martha and the camera's onJudy.
So it's a beautiful song andMartha and the camera's on Judy
and Martha.
Suddenly her head suddenly popsinto the frame and then pops
back again and Judy looks andgoes what the hell was that?
And she continues.
And then she does it again andshe mouths I love you, I love
(07:59):
you.
And Judy's trying to hold ittogether and she does it one
more time.
But here's the brilliant thingabout that is that Judy takes
that and runs with it, Becauseat the end of the song, the
lyrics, the lyric is supposed tosay and you are mine at last.
And Judy looks at Martha Rayand points to her and goes and
she is mine at last.
Which was all impromptu, it's sofunny.
(08:20):
It was TV's first lesbian joke.
Think, um, it's, it's a, it's afun, fun little bit.
I love watching that thing.
Whenever I feel blue orwherever I feel down, I put on
the glenn miller medley and justhearing it and knowing what's
happening facially lifts me upevery time see when I need a
lift.
Brad Shreve (08:37):
I I watched a clip of paul rudd doing almost
anything well, there's adifferent, different kind of
lift brad no well, I get twokinds of lifts from Paul.
I just think he's.
I think he's hysterical.
I don't like his movies, but Ithink he's hysterical.
Tony Maietta (08:49):
I.
Brad Shreve (08:50):
I drool over Paul, so that's a whole it's 63
standards and practices.
Let's keep it clean.
Tony Maietta (08:57):
So that was our little.
That was our little for thisprogram to pad out the rest of
this episode, although frankly,I don't think we need anything
to pad out this episode.
Brad Shreve (09:08):
It'll probably be a little short, and that's okay.
Tony Maietta (09:10):
That's good.
Yeah, the last one went long,but anyway.
So we're in October of 1963.
Norman Jewison has got the showrenewed and he's out of here.
He's like I'm going to go makeIn the Heat of the Night,
goodbye.
That was much later.
Also out of there was,thankfully thank you TV gods
(09:32):
Jerry Van Dyke.
He said he got his pink slipand they're like get out of here
.
Which was very sad for Judybecause she actually really
loved Jerry Van Dyke and shefelt I don't know what's going
on here, don't leave me.
But he did.
Brad Shreve (09:46):
Bye, jerry, have a nice life.
Hopefully you'll have a sitcomin 30 years.
Tony Maietta (09:57):
He went on to star in my Mother the Car, but he
did finally set.
Yes, brad just said he foundsome success in the sitcom Coach
in the 90s, so they needed anew executive producer.
Okay, so they needed a newexecutive producer.
Okay, we're only 13 episodesinto this season and they've
already had two major executiveproducers.
Now we need a third one.
Brad Shreve (10:13):
They put a revolving door at the entrance
for the producers and thewriters of this show a brand new
format.
Tony Maietta (10:20):
So we're up to format number three and this.
They looked to the TV producer,bill Colloran.
He was a TV producer anddirector and he's also was known
as Mr Lee Remick.
He was married to Lee Remickand he was brought in and the
great thing about Bill Colloranwas Bill Colloran helmed the
series for the rest of theepisode, so there were no more
(10:42):
new EPs.
It was Bill Colloran at thehelm.
He loved Judy.
He was a big fan of Judy's,judy loved him.
So that was good.
So we had people.
At least she felt like she hadsome kind of grounding here
after all the tumultuous youknow everything that had gone on
the past 13 episodes.
What was great about Colloranwas that he recognized the sound
(11:05):
deficiencies of the studio andhe had them bring in a
state-of-the-art sound equipmentand a handheld mic for Judy.
So when you're listening tothese later episodes and you say
you couldn't hear her before,so the sound was corrected,
there was a correction of thesound.
So usually when you hear songsfrom the show they're from the
(11:25):
later episodes because theyfinally had a decent sound
system.
You know it's crazy.
Despite all this and despiteall the problems, cbs refused to
move Judy Garland from her timeslot opposite Bonanza.
Bonanza was trouncing her.
They paid millions of dollarsto have her.
You think they go?
Okay, let's move you toSaturday night, let's give you a
(11:46):
shot.
But no, I know that doesn'tmake sense.
They were determined.
It's almost like they weredetermined to destroy her.
It's insane.
It's insane.
Brad Shreve (11:55):
Well, especially Westerns were so popular back
then that Bonanza was really afamily show in a weird way.
So why would you have them upagainst each other?
And plus, you had a ratingspowerhouse.
I mean, there's just so manyreasons that it makes no damn
sense whatsoever to why they didthat.
Tony Maietta (12:11):
No, it doesn't.
I mean, you have the idea atfirst that, yes, if anybody's,
if anybody's going to beatBonanza, it'll be Judy Garland.
Okay, we get that.
But when it was proven that itwasn't working, you think they
would have given her a shot.
But they didn't.
It's so Machiavellian, it'sfrightening.
They just it's like they wantedher to fail.
So, if that wasn't bad enough,they were about to begin
(12:37):
rehearsal for the first showunder the Collin regime and
November 22nd happens.
And Brad, do you want to tellus what happened on November
22nd?
Brad Shreve (12:50):
Unfortunately, that was the day that President John
F Kennedy was assassinated,that's right.
Who also happened to be.
Not only was Judy a hugesupporter of his, she was a good
friend of his.
Tony Maietta (13:03):
She was.
She was a personal friend ofJFK.
It's kind of gone into legendnow that she would just pick up
the phone, say, can you connectme to the White House, Can I
speak to Jack?
And she would talk to JackKennedy about the show, about
what was going on in her life,and at the end he would usually
(13:25):
ask her to sing a few bars ofOver the Rainbow to him and she
would.
Brad Shreve (13:29):
I want to jump in and say something I thought was
funny when I read quite a fewarticles about the two of them,
and I guess because of JackKennedy's reputation for being a
ladies' man, all of themstressed they were just friends.
Yeah.
Tony Maietta (13:49):
That's interesting to say that.
Yeah, I just I can't imaginethose two getting together, but
yeah, that's kind of crazy.
She was much more concernedwith David Bugleman because,
yeah, anyway, we're not going togo into that, but anyway.
So Kennedy was shot.
Judy, understandably, was amess.
I mean, you have a woman who'salready teetering on the edge
(14:11):
because of everything that'sgoing on and this just really
pushed her over.
Brad Shreve (14:13):
A lot of people cite Kennedy's assassination as
the moment when her life reallyturned and she just never seemed
to recover from that but I justwant to jump in in case the
listener doesn't know this Judysang at the Democrat National
Convention this year, so she wasshe did Big on Jack.
Tony Maietta (14:32):
She was a huge Kennedy supporter.
She was very close with PeterLawford, the president's
brother-in-law, and she was veryclose with all the Kennedys.
They invited her to Hyannis inthe summer, so she was very
close with them and she wasdevastated.
But she had a show to do.
She had to go to work.
That's the unfortunate realityof Judy Garland.
(14:53):
She worked and worked andworked and never had any money
because people were alwaysstealing from her, and so she
pulled herself together.
There was a show scheduled withBob Newhart and Bobby Darin
that she wanted to postponebecause she thought I want to do
something for the country, Iwant to do an hour of patriotic
songs to honor JFK, and thenetwork absolutely refused.
(15:17):
Can you believe that?
Brad Shreve (15:19):
I saw one of the reasons why I was aghast that
they said it was a month afterhis assassination and it'd be
all forgotten by then.
Tony Maietta (15:29):
You know who said that.
Brad Shreve (15:30):
Who the head of.
Tony Maietta (15:33):
No not Aubrey Aubrey, no, mr Stromberg.
Mr Stromberg said that Nobodywill remember Kennedy.
In six weeks it's unbelievableright.
Brad Shreve (15:45):
Yeah Well, who was Kennedy?
I don't.
It's 2020.
Who was Kennedy?
I've never heard of the man.
Tony Maietta (15:49):
So, yeah, she's just, she was just.
She's like numb, she's likewhat the I know I mean, come on.
So she's like she has no choice, though she decided to move
ahead with the Bobby, darin andNewhart show, which does have
some good moments in it.
As you said, brad, that wasactually an episode we were
going to talk about, but I askedBrad to talk about this one
instead.
So, thank you, but there's avery cute.
(16:18):
One of the very few comicscenes in the show that works is
a wonderful skit between sheand Bob Newhart, where they're
pretending to be TV viewers anddid you watch that skit?
Brad Shreve (16:23):
Yeah, I actually wanted to see more of the show
and I was only looking veryquickly and the only thing I
could find was that skit.
I'm sure if I looked deeper I'dfind the whole show and I
really enjoyed that skit.
It was very cute and very welldone and a really good
reflection of the differencebetween the earlier skits if
that's what you want to callthem in the earlier episodes to
(16:44):
one that was really done wellyeah, she had a master with her.
Tony Maietta (16:47):
She did.
She had a master with her andshe had new writers that came
with choleron and there's a.
There's a funny thing where shegoes to bob.
My favorite thing is if shegoes to Bob Newhart and she goes
.
She's playing.
This woman is watching JudyGarland on TV and she goes.
You know she hasn't sung a notein years.
She just moves her lips to oldrecords.
Brad Shreve (17:06):
And what was the song?
He said that?
Well, she did sing such andsuch she sang.
Tony Maietta (17:10):
I left my heart in San Francisco last week.
They just speeded up the TonyBennett record.
Brad Shreve (17:15):
I thought that would that actually had me bent
over that.
Tony Maietta (17:19):
It's a very cute skit, so watch that and watch
the Martha Ray Two littlebonuses and the scenes with
Bobby Darin are good, bobbyDarin, she has a medley of train
songs with Bobby Darin whichare really, really good, really
swinging.
I love Bobby Darin.
Brad Shreve (17:31):
So and I do want to speak on that episode.
So when Tony and I were pickingout episodes, I love Bob
Newhart just way beyond.
I wish people knew him morethan just a series, because he
was a brilliant standup comedian.
And Bobby Darin just makes memelt.
In fact, beyond the Sea is arecent I saw.
Tony Maietta (17:50):
I wish I could tell you a whole story.
Brad Shreve (17:51):
There's a big story behind that We'll talk about
someday.
So I was like, oh, I've got towatch this.
So Tony always lets me pick myepisode.
He will fight for the.
I'm sorry, he'll fight for theepisodes that he wants to watch,
but when we do a TV show, helets me pick the episode.
Tony Maietta (18:08):
I let you pick, but this one, yes, you do.
Brad Shreve (18:11):
This time he said you know I watched it, it's okay
, why don't you do this one?
And I'm like I remembered itwas Bob Newhart.
I totally forgot it was BobbyDarin.
Had I remembered they both wereon, I would have said no,
because it had been a whilesince we talked about it.
So I said, okay, that's fine,I'll watch the one that you
think I'd rather watch.
Okay, even though it has EarthaMerman as the.
So I will say that I am verydisappointed that I did not
(18:34):
watch that episode, because whenI saw the two of them on and
after I saw the Judy and BobNewhart skit, I thought it
seemed it looks like they reallyfinally got together.
I wish I'd watched it.
However, I do not regretwatching this.
Good, I'm glad, well, becausethis is when I said wow, they
finally are pulling it together.
Tony Maietta (18:51):
This is yeah, and the reason that I wanted to do
this episode will becomeapparent in a bit.
Brad Shreve (18:56):
Yes, we'll talk about it.
Tony Maietta (18:57):
And it was fitting that we did that yes.
And the Bobby Darin Bob Newhartshow.
Those are the only two goodsegments in that episode by the
way.
Brad Shreve (19:05):
So I'll actually say yeah, you said it was meh
overall.
Tony Maietta (19:08):
It's not a great.
She's her best friend.
One of her best friends hadjust been killed.
I mean, she's not in the bestshort, she's not in the best
shape.
It's amazing that she showed up, but she does pull it together
and she does some good stuff.
Then they did the Christmasepisode, which is a delightful
episode with the kids, with Joeyand Lorna, and Liza comes in
and it's a fun Christmas episode.
I'm sure you know it's calledthe Judy Garland Christmas show.
(19:30):
You've probably seen it.
It's wonderful.
The one and only time she singsOver the Rainbow is on this
Christmas episode and it's adelightful.
She sings it to the kids.
It's a delightful, delightfulsequence.
Brad Shreve (19:41):
And that was fitting for a treat for the
audience.
Tony Maietta (19:43):
It was, it was and it makes sense.
She's singing it at Christmastime.
It's special.
And then they took a shortbreak and they reconvened to
discuss the next show and Judysaid this.
She said I'm singing BattleHymn of the Republic as a
tribute to John F Kennedy, andif you don't like it, hunt, if
(20:04):
you don't like it, aubrey, youcan fuck off because I'm doing
it.
And this one time somebodystood by her, bill Collar, and
said absolutely we're doing it.
And they actually allowed herto do it now, you surprised me.
Brad Shreve (20:20):
I'm glad because I always trust you.
You set the record straight.
I actually did not hear that.
What did you hear?
I heard that judy did it at theend on her own doing and said
well, no, they go with it afterthey had insisted to her.
No, because this was a time whentelevision was always supposed
to be happy, so when a characterdied they always just had to
move away.
So you know I understand wherethey were coming from, given the
(20:41):
mindset of that era.
That didn't want her to do allthis stuff, but my understanding
is they never buckled, she justdid it and when, by the time it
was done, they were like runwith it well, no, they couldn't
have just created theorchestrations on the moment?
Tony Maietta (20:53):
you know, she said was doing it.
And Bill Collaren said yes, sheis going to do it.
And Aubrey said, or.
Stromberg said no one willremember JFK, as you said.
So Judy said leave it off therundown, but we're doing it.
So they eventually found out itwas going to happen and she was
adamant about it.
I'm doing it, I'm doing it.
So there was always a chancethat they would cut it.
(21:24):
But here's what they did.
Cut um is before that, duringthe dress rehearsal, before she
started singing battle him inthe republic, she looked at the
camera and said this is for you,jack, and then she sang it.
They now, when she did the, thetaped the aired version that
wasn't in it.
They took that out.
Brad Shreve (21:35):
Or she didn't say it and the version I watched
didn't have that either.
I don't know if the one you hadhad it, and that really
disappointed me, I know, giventhat time period.
And she did say to the cameraI'm going to sing a song that I
don't think is sung ontelevision, and she sang it.
Boy, she knocked my socks offand I'm not even in love with
that song, but oh God, she wasgood and you could just, it was
(21:57):
powerful, yeah, but I was reallydisappointed.
She didn't say why she wassinging it, but, granted, it was
just after Jack died.
Tony Maietta (22:04):
Well, she wanted to make sure it aired.
Everybody knew why, everybodyknew why?
Well, that's the thing.
Brad Shreve (22:10):
Everybody knew, so it is that they cut it out, but
it was probably unnecessary,given that.
Tony Maietta (22:15):
Well, and Bill Colloran said that.
Bill Colloran, the executiveproducer, said she said that and
she didn't, but it didn't air.
But before we I don't want toblow our wad here on Battle Hymn
because we got the rest of theshow- to talk about and then
we'll finish with.
We'll talk about Battle Hymn,but you liked.
So this is episode 16.
It was taped on December 16th1963, aired on January 12th 1964
(22:38):
.
The guest stars are yes, themerm is back, ethel Merman,
shelley Berman no relation and.
Peter and Peter Gennaro.
Peter Gennaro, yes, he was thechoreographer of the show at
this point.
Clip (23:21):
Well, Judy dear, are you all warmed up?
Yes, Ethel, and you sing justas loud as ever.
That's the nicest thing thatanybody ever said to me.
You know, you amaze me, Ethel,Really.
We've been doing a littledigging, and do you know that
Ethel has appeared before aBroadway audience exactly 10,836
(23:42):
times?
And look at all the marveloussongs you did in your shows the
songs you've written for you.
Tony Maietta (23:54):
There's a lot of them, Judy, all right.
Clip (23:55):
But my real favorites were the duets.
Oh, did you do duets?
Oh, of course, but nobody everknew it.
I sing so darn loud theaudience would never hear the
other singer.
They'd be able to hear you,judy.
Let's face it we're the last ofthe big belters, I see.
So we're the last of the bigbelt-ins, so let's go, come on.
Brad Shreve (24:18):
So you liked this show.
I did.
I think it could have beenbetter, but it is more along the
lines that I would have likedto have seen it Now is this the
one where the there's one of theones that the outfits were just
horrendous at the beginning, ofcourse most of them, they
looked awful.
Tony Maietta (24:34):
Oh well, they sing , everybody's doing it and
they're all like in band leaderoutfits.
Brad Shreve (24:40):
Well, there's one where they're clowns, canes oh,
that's in this.
Okay, yeah, that was horrendous, but that's because of the
outfits, but anyway, and allthat is.
I remember that.
Tony Maietta (24:48):
Yeah, I wasn't wrong about that well, it's
funny, they do, they do this,they uh, peter gennaro does this
dance to.
I Love a Parade and he's inthis kind of weird like.
He's in this bandleader uniformwith a hat.
And Judy needed to save moneyso badly that a couple episodes
later she wore that costume.
She could fit in the samecostume as Peter Gennaro.
Brad Shreve (25:12):
They're both little tiny people.
Shelly Berman did a skit that Ididn't think was the best skit
in the world, but it was funnyand made me giggle and you know
they broke away for that.
So they had singing.
They broke away for that.
Then they did singing and theybroke away for Peter Gennaro
doing a dance routine.
And they did.
Was it all three of them thatdid a dance routine together, or
just him and Judy?
(25:36):
B did a dance routine together,or just her, him and judy.
Berman and genero and judy didone together.
Yeah, I wasn't real thrilledwith the dance routine but I
liked that.
It was a break and it was aattempt at something.
To me that was more of avariety show.
I was much happier.
This is like the show I wantedto see from the beginning really
that's so interesting because Ihave the opposite reaction.
Tony Maietta (25:50):
I feel like there's no continuity here.
I feel like it's sketch, sketch, sketch, sketch.
There's no through line I.
I won't argue like that I won't.
Brad Shreve (25:58):
No, I I will not argue that I said I didn't think
it was a great show.
I I enjoyed it more becausethere was variety, as variety
shows should be but.
I don't think, just like therest of the, the whole series, I
don't think it was the bestdone show no, okay, yeah, yeah,
it's, yeah.
Tony Maietta (26:14):
I I think it's.
It's.
It's got some cute moments.
I love the fact that merman'sback, I think after she did the
barbara thing and judy was likewe gotta get.
Brad Shreve (26:23):
I gotta get merman back in because you know, we
just gotta have a show and shewas a good friend of judy's, so
that was and she was delightfuland she even joked that nobody
can hear when she's singing.
That's right.
Tony Maietta (26:34):
So that's the great friendship duet.
We're the last of the bigbelters.
And it's so funny because youknow they were friends.
Even though Judy was cast asAnnie Oakley in the film version
of you know, one of Merman'sbiggest hits, annie Get your Gun
, she was fired so she didn'tmake it.
Betty Hutton made it.
But Merman didn't seem to haveany animosity towards her like
(27:02):
she had towards Riles andRussell with Gypsy.
She really loved Judy andhere's another reason she loved
her.
By this point Judy was resortingto her old tricks and not
showing up and being late andapparently she wasn't there for
most of the week the rehearsalweek and Ethel just put up with
it.
Now you wouldn't think EthelMerman would put up with this,
but that's how much she lovedJudy and she knew what Judy was
going through.
It's also a reason why Judyseems kind of off-kilter in some
(27:26):
of these episodes.
She misses some dance steps andshe screws up the friendship
duet.
But Judy had Garland had aphotographic memory, so she just
had to hear something once orsee something once and she could
pretty much do it.
So they do that friendship duetwhich is all of Ethel's, all of
Ethel's duets.
But she says but I sing so darnloud no one could ever hear the
(27:48):
other singer.
And Judy just does it, she doesit with her, she messes up, but
she just keeps going and it'sactually quite charming, I think
.
Brad Shreve (27:56):
If I recall, she messes up and does she giggle
for a second and get right backinto it.
Yeah, she giggles and theylaugh.
Yeah, that's what I love aboutvariety shows.
That to me well, you know,carol Burnett's famous for it.
Tony Maietta (28:06):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (28:06):
But I enjoyed that.
Tony Maietta (28:18):
I was like, wow, it feels Ethel doesn't miss a
beat, if you notice.
You know why that is.
It's because even when EthelMerman is performing with
another person, she's solo.
Yeah, that's true, she is inher own world.
It's her in the audience and oh, are you here too?
Oh, okay, you know what I mean.
She's totally ignorant of theperson she's singing with.
She's not like Judy in Barbara,she's not reacting.
She's not like Judy in Barbara,she's not reacting.
She's in her own world.
And there's just this personnext to her who was also singing
(28:39):
.
But it is kind of sweet becauseafter the, after the duet, she
kind of looks at Judy and givesher an air kiss.
So you know it's, it's, it'sjust a style of performing.
That's who Merman was.
Everything was full front, loudas it could possibly be, and
that was showbiz, kids, you knowand that was showbiz kids.
Brad Shreve (28:56):
You know, yeah, and I I said that during the last
episode that I love her as anactor and comedian.
I'm not a fan of her singingand I really, really got tired
of there's no business like showbusiness, because that's all
they ever had that poor womansaying when she was on the show.
But I will say this to me whenshe stood up and sang it in the
movie airplane, it was on thefunniest moments in the movie it
was no well, she actually sang.
Tony Maietta (29:16):
Everything's coming up roses and air oh,
that's right, she did sing.
Brad Shreve (29:19):
Everything's coming up, you're right.
Tony Maietta (29:20):
Oh my god, that was funny but no, they almost,
they almost always had her singshow business.
Thank god she didn't sing it inthis episode.
Brad Shreve (29:26):
Episode she's saying uh, I get a kick out of
you and she's saying uh gee, butit's good to be here which are
two of her and and I really loveI Get a Kick Out of you, so I
was really enjoying that it waswonderful.
Tony Maietta (29:37):
It's really good it was.
Yeah, the episode definitelyhad its highlights, but I think
the reason I wanted to do thisepisode and the reason why I
wanted to change it is becauseof the trunk sequence and Battle
Hymn of the Republic.
It's just, you know, it's sothe whole thing with Kennedy and
(29:59):
the whole fact that she heldher line and she said I'm
singing this, this is, I've gotto do something for this, for
this man, and I've got to dosomething for the country, you
know the fact that she felt,that she felt so deeply about
that.
It just moves me so much.
And she sings a couple othersongs before.
She sings a song from one ofher movies, pretty Girl Milking
(30:20):
Her Cow, and she sings Puttingon the Ritz, which are fun, but
it's all just filler for this.
I mean, she's just she grabsthat mic and it's like she's
leading an army of people whenshe sings battle him, don't you
think?
Brad Shreve (30:34):
yeah, you, you let slip that.
She sings battle him.
And I, I think it's because youwere trying to sell me to
switch episodes.
Yes, uh, I thought.
Battle him in the republic.
Oh, my god, why do I want tohear that?
And it was.
It was so moving.
Yeah, isn't?
Tony Maietta (30:48):
it isn't amazing.
Brad Shreve (30:49):
It was so from the heart and the.
You know it doesn't surprise methe way judy's saying it is not
like it, just it sounded it.
It almost sounded like a lovesong.
Tony Maietta (30:58):
Her heart was on this, her guts were out.
I mean, it's that level ofemotion.
When she's singing this songAgain, something's taking over
her, and you know, what'sinteresting about it is that
there were technical problemswhen she performed it.
Her mic shorted out at onepoint.
So if you watch it reallyclosely, there's a moment where
(31:19):
her voice doesn't sync up.
They had to go to the dressrehearsal and insert a part, but
it doesn't matter.
It's like when we talked aboutthe Manchurian candidate, with
the slightly out of focus scenewith Frank Sinatra it's the
performance that matters.
They didn't redo it, becausewhat matters is the performance.
It doesn't matter that hervocals off sync.
They didn't redo it, becausewhat matters is the performance.
It doesn't matter that hervocal is off sync, it doesn't
matter if she messes up thelyrics a couple times.
(31:40):
It's the raw emotion of theperformance which is driving it
and which makes it so incredible.
Brad Shreve (31:49):
I agree.
I'm actually surprised you evensaid that, because it seemed
flawless it's amazing.
Tony Maietta (31:54):
It's amazing when she says, when she sings, when
she's talking about Christ andshe says as he died to make men
holy, let us die to make menfree.
And you can see that she'scrying and she's just barely
holding it together.
Oh my God, I'm getting chillstalking about it right now.
Brad Shreve (32:16):
And I mentioned earlier, I really liked the way
she introduced the song.
Tony Maietta (32:19):
It was kind of sweet.
Brad Shreve (32:20):
Yeah, it wasn't.
They didn't allow her to talkabout John Kennedy, so she just
said I want to sing a song thatI don't think is.
She either said it's not sungon television or not sung.
You barely ever hear it ontelevision and I just think it's
important to sing it.
That was so smart.
You barely ever hear it ontelevision and I just think it's
important to sing it.
That was so smart.
Oh yeah, and it was just.
I felt like she was talkingdirectly to me.
Tony Maietta (32:41):
It's so smart that you did that, because they
couldn't object to that.
If she had said the JackKennedy thing, they could have
said cut it, cut the whole thing, don't just cut.
But she knew that everybody inthat audience knew why she was
singing it.
She knew they knew, so shedidn't have to say that, you
know.
And another genius thing aboutthat woman and clearly the
audience did, because they notonly gave her a standing ovation
(33:01):
, I mean they were jumping upand down, they were screaming.
She was overwhelmed by theirresponse.
Brad Shreve (33:07):
Well, the country was in pain.
Tony Maietta (33:08):
They needed that, they needed that and stupid CBS,
you know.
I mean, are these people?
Brad Shreve (33:17):
human?
I guess they're not.
They're TV executives, sothey're not Exactly.
Tony Maietta (33:19):
It's amazing to me .
She was, in fact, she was sooverwhelmed and I don't know if
you noticed this, but they startto play.
Maybe I'll Come Back.
She didn't sing it, she turnedand she walked out, and good for
her.
She's like uh-uh turned and shewalked out, and good for her.
(33:40):
She's like, uh, I'm not doingthis silly end song.
How can I possibly sing a sillysong about birds roosting in a
trees and elephants in thebreeze when I've just spilled my
guts out for you for a TV show?
I mean, I love it.
She walks off and the orchestraplays it and then you just get
all these random shots of thetrunk because they don't know
what to shoot's brilliant, it'sbrilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
(34:01):
incredible episode, incrediblenow we talked about.
Brad Shreve (34:04):
I talked about how I really felt that this is where
they hit their stride, becauseit did feel more like a variety
show, even though, again, it hadits faults, as this entire show
did.
And, uh, no respect, disrespectto Judy herself, but I haven't
seen the whole entire series andI was reading some synopsis of
the show and they did say it wastowards the end of the series.
(34:25):
Chris, this was what?
Episode 18?
Mm-hmm, okay, so it wasn'treally.
This is halfway through or alittle less than that.
Yeah, they did 26 episodes, yeahbecause I did hear that towards
the end of the show it becamealmost just a Judy concert show,
which is exactly what I feltwas wrong with the show.
Tony Maietta (34:42):
Well, yes, here's what's interesting.
Brad Shreve (34:44):
And critics think that's when it got better, and
I'm sure you probably do.
I don't know, no.
Tony Maietta (34:48):
I don't necessarily.
I don't actually, but here'swhat happened.
So this was show number 16,december.
In January, cbs informed JudyGarland that her show was
canceled and her last episodewould air in March.
So they actually allowed her.
It was one of the few decentthings they did.
They allowed her to make theannouncement as if it was her
(35:10):
choice yeah, that she needed tospend more time with her family,
but it wasn't.
They canceled her and she wasdevastated.
But then she does what Judy doesand she goes.
You know what she's like.
Fuck all y'all.
I've been listening to you fora year now and you couldn't get
it right.
I'm going to do it the way Iknow it should be done.
And that's when she started theconcerts.
(35:31):
So, yes, the last handful ofepisodes are.
I don't even think it's calledthe Judy Garland show anymore.
It's called Judy Garland inconcert and it's really one
concert after the other.
There's occasionally a gueststar who comes in and she'll do
a couple songs with them, butthere's no more format, it's
just a concert series.
She finally got to do thepatriotic show she wanted to do.
(35:53):
She did a song of all patrioticsongs, cause by now CBS is like
do what you want.
Brad Shreve (35:57):
You're canceled.
Tony Maietta (35:58):
You know your ass is out.
Brad Shreve (35:59):
Well, that was funny.
I heard that they just kind ofwere like she's done, just
ignore her.
I mean yeah, exactly.
Tony Maietta (36:04):
And, and you know what the show started to pick
positive, like what's going onover there.
Suddenly the show is working,suddenly this show is not stupid
with these stupid skits and allthis stuff.
I I don't prefer the concert.
I like I love the schlatterperiod I do.
(36:27):
The first five episodes, Ithink, are there are some bad
moments, but I think they'repure, pure entertainment.
I love them.
I'm not a huge fan of theconcerts but they're a hell of a
lot better than you knowcalling her fat and a little old
lady and all that shit that shewas doing in Norman Jewison's
reign.
So, yeah, yeah, they're good,they're good.
But it was a big risk for her totry to do a TV series, a weekly
(36:50):
series, and we've just spelledout for you what happened and
why that was a risk, but she hadto do it.
She wanted the security for herfamily and for her life.
So you've got to love her forthat and just be devastated for
her by how it turned out.
Something which started out sooptimistically and on such a
high note to end the way it didis just so very sad to me.
(37:12):
It's.
Chinatown yeah it kind of is thefutility of good intentions.
So the final episode of theJudy Garland show was to be
taped on March 13th 1964.
And Judy for her, to her credit, she had high hopes initially
for a classy finale.
(37:32):
She's like I'm going to go outwith a bang, I'm going to do all
new material.
I'm going to really, I'm goingto go out with a bang, I'm going
to do all new material, I'mgoing to give them something to
see.
And she started out really wellbut she started to falter about
halfway through and she justcouldn't make it through the
show.
She just couldn't do it.
So she left the stage.
(37:54):
The studio audience eventuallyleft and then at about 3 am
suddenly there's movement andsomeone said she's coming on.
She's coming on, go get people.
So they ran out to outside thestudio where this coterie of
Garland fans always hung out,and they brought them in for the
studio audience and they satthem in the bleachers so that
(38:14):
she had her fan base there andshe did a couple numbers and
then she faltered again and thenthey called it quits at 5 am.
They had been filming since, Ithink, about 8 pm.
So they've been there a long,long time.
She came back a couple dayslater to try to do some stuff,
but she just couldn't do it.
(38:35):
She just couldn't get through.
So the last episode is ahodgepodge.
It's scenes that she shot thatnight.
It's things from old episodesthat were thrown in.
It's kind of like we saidFrankenstein, the first episode.
The last episode, ironically,is also kind of Frankensteined.
There's some good moments in it, but you can just see it in her
(38:56):
face that she's done.
She's done, it's over.
Brad Shreve (38:59):
That's disappointing.
I'm really sad.
I would love to see the last.
You know this show ended in1964.
Tony Maietta (39:04):
She died in 1969, june 22nd 1969.
And the last five years of herlife were pretty turbulent, were
pretty crazy.
(39:24):
I mean, she had incrediblehighs.
You know she did the Palladiumwith Liza.
She had incredible lows.
She was fired from Valley ofthe Dolls.
For Christ's sake, can youimagine being fired from Valley
of the Dolls but being Judy sake?
Can you imagine being firedfrom Valley of the Dolls but
being Judy Garland?
She took the wardrobe with her.
In fact, patty Duke tells a veryfunny story about working with
(39:45):
her on Valley of the Dolls andsaying that you know how could
you put?
She said she was like a littlesparrow, she was so tiny and
weak and she's like how can youput this treasure, this American
icon, through this, throughthis?
And she left and she said shefelt really bad about it, until
she went to go see her inconcert a couple months later
and she walked out in the outfitshe was wearing in Valley of
(40:09):
the Dogs.
But yes, she just her.
The rest of her life was wasnot good.
But that's why this show is soimportant.
That's why the show is sohistoric, because it's really
the last sustained period ofwork in her life.
It's really the one where sheshowed up at least until the end
every day and did her best andhad the best intentions.
(40:32):
But you're right, brad, likeChinatown, sometimes that's your
downfall yep yep and it, it wasit.
Brad Shreve (40:40):
It's almost like I wish she was just complacent
about this show and just did it.
My understanding she didn'twant to do television, except
that she needed because I saidthat early in the last episode.
I said that I heard she was didwant to retire completely, but
she didn't have the money.
Um, she needed the money andand this episode, in my
understanding she did definitelynot want to do television.
(41:00):
But when they offered her somuch money, how can you turn it
down?
You can't.
But she wasn't complacent aboutit.
But when she decided to do itshe said I'm going to run with
this.
So her heart was in it and itis very sad it didn't turn out.
Tony Maietta (41:13):
And they sold her a bill of goods.
Brad Shreve (41:15):
The way it should have been, yeah.
Tony Maietta (41:16):
So they sold her, cbs sold her a bill of goods and
, like so many other people,they took advantage of her.
And I mean I'm not going to doJudy the victim, you know,
because that's an old trope.
You know that we know is nottrue.
She was a funny, brilliantlight.
She was not a victim, but shewas victimized by many people
(41:37):
who took advantage of her.
Brad Shreve (41:38):
Yes, she was, she was.
Tony Maietta (41:40):
And one of those people, or a group of people,
was CBS.
And now I wanted to save thispart for the very end, because
all throughout these twoepisodes, we've been asking why?
Why did CBS do this?
Why did they pay her so muchmoney only to undermine her at
(42:02):
every step of the process,changing formats, firing
producers.
It's madness.
Brad Shreve (42:09):
It's nothing short of crazy.
Tony Maietta (42:11):
Well, there may be a reason, a theory as to why
this all happened.
Now, in our last episode, youread off a list of the top 10
shows on television in 1963.
Beverly Hillbillies, Bonanza,Dick Van Dyke, Lucy Perry, Mason
, Red Skelton Remember that yeah, yes.
(42:33):
All right, and you said they allhad something in common.
Remember that, yeah, yes, allright, and you said they all had
something in common.
They were all dramas orcomedies, except one which was a
variety show.
Well, they had something elsein common they were all CBS
shows, except one of them, andwhich one was that?
Brad?
Brad Shreve (42:53):
Bonanza.
Tony Maietta (42:54):
Exactly Ding ding ding Bonanza.
Exactly Ding ding ding Bonanza.
And the theory is that thisdrove CBS president Jim Aubrey,
aka the smiling cobra, crazy.
He wanted a clean CBS sweep ofthe top ten and the Ponderosa
boys were standing in his way.
(43:16):
He was obsessed with beatingBonanza and nobody else had ever
been able to do that in thattime slot, except one person who
showed that she could actuallybeat Bonanza in her special with
Dean and Frank Judy.
So, allegedly to Aubrey, itwasn't about making great
(43:37):
television or a great televisionshow or Judy Garland.
It was about it was all aboutbeating Bonanza.
It was about a clean CBS sweepof the top 10.
And that's why he wasconstantly interfering with the
series, firing producers,changing formats and then
finally, when he realized Judywasn't going to be able to beat
(43:58):
them in her weekly series, heset her loose.
Brad Shreve (44:02):
Wow, that is obsession.
That's really sad.
Tony Maietta (44:05):
So what happened to the Judy Garland show?
It's done Now.
It was owned by Judy.
Judy owned it along with hernow ex-husband, sid Luft.
It languished in legal hell fordecades.
She thought about rerunning itbut nobody wanted to rerun it in
her lifetime.
(44:26):
And it was only after Sid Luftin like I think 79 or 80,
finally got control of the showand they brought the tapes out
and he slowly started lettingthem be seen.
And this is.
You know, there's a lot ofthings to say about Sid Luft,
but this is a wonderful thingthat he did because the show was
(44:47):
finally being seen andre-evaluated.
People had heard of or they'dseen.
You know, in 1963, they saw theBarbra Streisand episode or
they'd heard about it, but theyhadn't.
They saw the Barbra Streisandepisode, or they'd heard about
it but they hadn't seen it.
I remember seeing this, as Isaid, when I was in college I
think and just being blown awayby it.
And all they had, all we had,of the show was the memory and
(45:08):
Nell Torme's horrible book whichpaints such a bad picture.
And then, when the seriesstarted to come out and then it
was released on DVD in pristinecondition, which I was like
first in line to get the box setfor this.
I'm blown away by the artistry,by the talent, and there's a
wonderful book that I love,written by the late, great Steve
(45:29):
Sanders, who was.
I knew him, he was a wonderfulguy and he wrote a wonderful
book called Rainbow's End, whichso much of this information.
If you want to know more aboutthe series, read this book.
It's a fantastic book,verifiable paints, a perfectly
honest portrait of Judy and whatthe show was and what she went
through, and I hope that we, inpodcast form, have done that as
(45:52):
well today.
Brad.
Brad Shreve (45:54):
I think we did.
I think we gave her a goodsalute and a fitting tribute.
I do too.
Tony Maietta (46:00):
I do too, and I appreciated your opinions and
you went easy on me, I think.
Brad Shreve (46:07):
I went easy on you.
I was honest but gentle, but itwasn't really gentle.
I was honest, but everything Isaid to soften the blow was as
heartfelt Good.
Tony Maietta (46:17):
Well, we got some great stuff coming up for you in
future episodes.
Brad, Do you want to talk alittle bit about what's going on
here, what we got coming up?
Brad Shreve (46:27):
Well, next week, if we go on schedule and we've
been doing a pretty good job ofit, let's just say it's going to
be a total different direction.
Tony Maietta (46:35):
But you know it is , it is June, it is pride month,
so it's not that, it's not thatoff base.
You know what I'm saying?
It's not.
Brad Shreve (46:43):
We, when we agreed on it, we were kind of
stretching on it, but yeah, itis fitting for for June month,
Cause I will say, as a young manI was like, but there's a
teaser.
Yeah, there is a teaser.
It is, though.
It is not a happy film.
It's a drama, very seriousdrama, that I don't I think is
completely overlooked these days, and I don't know why.
Before we say goodbye, asalways, I want to remind those
(47:06):
that are listening to us thefirst few times please subscribe
, and if you've been listeningto us for a while, leave a
review, because not only will itmake us happy, you'll feel
better for it too.
Tony Maietta (47:15):
That's true.
That's true.
I appreciate that.
Well, brad, I know I only haveone thing left to say but, even
that I don't want to say.
So let's not say goodbye, let'ssay au revoir.
Brad Shreve (47:31):
No, it's time to say goodbye.
Tony Maietta (47:33):
Goodbye, everybody .
Clip (47:42):
That's all folks.
From Television City in Hollywood.
Here's Judy Applause.
Tony Maietta (00:15):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.
Brad Shreve (00:19):
And I'm Brad Shreve , who's just a guy who likes
movies.
Tony Maietta (00:22):
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.
Brad Shreve (00:28):
And, of course, being the average guy, my
opinions are the ones thatmatter.
Tony Maietta (00:34):
As does your self-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood.
Clip (00:40):
You know, a lot of crazy things happen on television and
things you never get a chance tosee actually.
And, for instance, we haveMartha Ray on the show this week
and well, a lot of thingshappened at dress rehearsal.
I thought you would like to seeshe just well, we didn't know
what she was going to do next.
I think you might be interestedin it.
You understand, here it is.
Tony Maietta (01:07):
Oh, we're back.
Brad Shreve (01:08):
Yes, we are.
Tony Maietta (01:09):
That didn't feel like 62 years.
Wait a minute, let me thinkabout that for a minute.
Because we left you in the lastepisode in October of 1963 with
the Judy Garland show featuringBarbara Streisand and Ethel
Merman.
(01:29):
And what was her names, thosebrothers?
Brad Shreve (01:34):
the mothers brothers, mothers, brothers.
Tony Maietta (01:36):
They were in that they were in that show too, and
we were in that show.
Brad Shreve (01:40):
And we did our movie in 62 years.
We're only going two monthsahead.
Tony Maietta (01:43):
We are.
We are Cause we're going backin time again, but I mean, right
now we're in this world, rightnow it's 2025.
But then we'll go back.
We'll go back, but we're notgoing to go back all the way to
October, because I threw Brad alittle curveball last night,
which I love to do, and I textedhim about what was it like 930?
Yes.
(02:05):
What was it like 9 30?
Yes, and I said watch this,we're going to talk about it.
And I thought I want, becausewe only have one more episode of
the julia garland show to talkabout.
We got through two and a lot ofme jabbering on and on and on
um well, that's no differentthan usual.
Well shut up, um, but we, um,your, your camera freezes, I
don't know, I just keep talking.
So we did two, we're gonna doone more, but I threw threw Brad
a curveball because I have alittle bonus content for you
(02:27):
listener.
I sent Brad a video fromepisode number 18 that was taped
on January 14th 1964 and airedon none other than Martha Ray,
and I felt so evil sending youthat video because I know how
(02:53):
you feel about Martha Ray.
Brad Shreve (02:56):
Two thirds of that show sound just delightful.
So Tony sent me this.
I'm like oh my God, why wouldhe send me Martha Ray,
especially late at night?
Tony Maietta (03:09):
You'll never get to sleep now.
Brad Shreve (03:11):
I actually I was busy at the moment so I was like
I'll go, I'll watch it later.
I actually kind of forgot aboutit and I watched it early this
morning.
Tony Maietta (03:17):
Well, I just want to give a little before you go
into it.
I just want to give a littlebackground about it.
Oh, yes, about it, because,listener, if you and I don't
know why you haven't listened toall of our episodes- but if you
listened to our Alice episode acouple of weeks ago, brad made
his feelings about Martha Rayvery clear.
Now I'm not quite as adamantabout Martha Ray as Brad is in
(03:37):
his opinions.
I actually kind of like MarthaRay.
I think she is funny, I thinkshe can be a little of her goes
a long way, true, but I happento think she has moments of very
funny and she has a great voice.
She has a great singing voice.
You can't deny that she was asinger.
She was a band singer, as Isaid in our Misery episode.
You know Bette Midler was kindof playing her and for the boys
(03:59):
at least, martha Ray thought sobecause she sued her.
So she's a comic, she's asinger.
She was a good friend of JudyGarland's and Judy, at this
point in the series, needed allher friends around her.
That's why Peter Lawford wasalso on.
And Judy Garland and Martha Rayhere's something I bet you
didn't know.
Brad shared something.
They had something in common.
They had a husband in common.
(04:20):
Judy Garland's first husbandwas David Rose rose and he was
also married to martha ray.
So these two knew each otherand they were good friends and
martha ray could make judy laughlike nobody else could, and I
think you kind of see this inthis little, in this little
scene, don't you?
Brad Shreve (04:38):
yeah you, they seemed to really did enjoy each
other's company.
Tony Maietta (04:41):
Certainly did so in this episode, judy and Martha
.
Among the things they dotogether is they do a Glenn
Miller medley, and it'sallegedly from the dress
rehearsal, because Martha Raykept just acting like Martha Ray
does.
She's just so outrageous.
And Judy did a specialintroduction to this saying you
(05:02):
know, we didn't know what shewas going to do next, because
she's just so outrageous andshe's so uncontrollable.
So that's what we're going totalk about is our little bonus
thing.
So, brad, lay it on me.
What were your thoughts?
Brad Shreve (05:13):
Well, first of all, Tony said that a little Martha
Ray goes a long way.
About two seconds of Martha Raygoes a long way.
However, I listened to thisfirst.
Clip (05:24):
Oh, you did.
Brad Shreve (05:25):
Well, I turned it on and I had other things going
on, so I got distracted.
I was doing all kinds of thingsand I was listening to it.
I thought this is reallyenjoyable.
I really enjoy this.
Both of them sound great.
It's a fun medley.
I really enjoyed it.
And then when it was done, Ithought you know, I didn't watch
(05:47):
it, so I need to watch it again.
Yeah, it was so much betterjust to listen to it.
Now, there were a couple oftimes that Martha Ray said some
things, but this one she kept.
She tried being a clown, shewas making faces, and I'm like
it was so much more enjoyablewhen I didn't have to look at
her and I don't mean that as faras Martha Ray being an
unattractive person, but justshe's doing these faces that
(06:07):
work with Lucille Ball but don'twork with Martha Ray in my
opinion.
So what you're saying is thatMartha Ray has a face for radio.
She has a singing voice.
I've never really paid thatmuch attention to her singing
voice.
I've heard her sing.
The two of them sounded greattogether.
I hate to admit it because Idon't like saying nice things
(06:30):
about martha ray, but I actuallyreally enjoyed that.
Tony Maietta (06:32):
I bet you're shocked.
No, no, no, no, she's awonderful singing voice.
Brad Shreve (06:33):
No, I bet you're shocked.
Tony Maietta (06:34):
I liked it oh, I'm , I'm no, I.
I kind of not really.
I kind of figured you wouldlike the sound of it.
I love that you listened to itand then watched it and you
didn't like watching it becauseto me it's the faces, to me, uh,
and it's the ad libs you know,it's the fact that this is
totally ad-libbed.
Judy didn't know martha wasgoing to be doing this stuff.
She just knew I'm going to besitting on a stool with this
(06:54):
kook.
Well, she had no martha's gonnado something.
She knew she was gonna dosomething, but who knew what?
And, as I said at this point inthe series, uh, we're getting
very close to the cancellationof the series and Judy needed
all the laughs she could get, soit was a really wonderful thing
to have her friend on herebreaking her up and kind of
lightening the mood.
I think my favorite.
So they sing a bunch of songsidentified with Glenn Miller.
(07:17):
They sing Pennsylvania's 6-5000, and Martha goes.
I forgot the telephone number.
There's some great outtakes, bythe way, that are available on
YouTube, which are very funny.
But the best part is Judy singsAt Last and as Judy sings, did
you know the song At Last,before this happened?
Brad Shreve (07:34):
My husband plays at least three times a week, but
not the Judy version.
Tony Maietta (07:38):
Yeah, At Last my Love has Come Along.
So it's a beautiful song.
And Martha and the camera's onJudy.
So it's a beautiful song andMartha and the camera's on Judy
and Martha.
Suddenly her head suddenly popsinto the frame and then pops
back again and Judy looks andgoes what the hell was that?
And she continues.
And then she does it again andshe mouths I love you, I love
(07:59):
you.
And Judy's trying to hold ittogether and she does it one
more time.
But here's the brilliant thingabout that is that Judy takes
that and runs with it, Becauseat the end of the song, the
lyrics, the lyric is supposed tosay and you are mine at last.
And Judy looks at Martha Rayand points to her and goes and
she is mine at last.
Which was all impromptu, it's sofunny.
(08:20):
It was TV's first lesbian joke.
Think, um, it's, it's a, it's afun, fun little bit.
I love watching that thing.
Whenever I feel blue orwherever I feel down, I put on
the glenn miller medley and justhearing it and knowing what's
happening facially lifts me upevery time see when I need a
lift.
Brad Shreve (08:37):
I I watched a clip of paul rudd doing almost
anything well, there's adifferent, different kind of
lift brad no well, I get twokinds of lifts from Paul.
I just think he's.
I think he's hysterical.
I don't like his movies, but Ithink he's hysterical.
Tony Maietta (08:49):
I.
Brad Shreve (08:50):
I drool over Paul, so that's a whole it's 63
standards and practices.
Let's keep it clean.
Tony Maietta (08:57):
So that was our little.
That was our little for thisprogram to pad out the rest of
this episode, although frankly,I don't think we need anything
to pad out this episode.
Brad Shreve (09:08):
It'll probably be a little short, and that's okay.
Tony Maietta (09:10):
That's good.
Yeah, the last one went long,but anyway.
So we're in October of 1963.
Norman Jewison has got the showrenewed and he's out of here.
He's like I'm going to go makeIn the Heat of the Night,
goodbye.
That was much later.
Also out of there was,thankfully thank you TV gods
(09:32):
Jerry Van Dyke.
He said he got his pink slipand they're like get out of here
.
Which was very sad for Judybecause she actually really
loved Jerry Van Dyke and shefelt I don't know what's going
on here, don't leave me.
But he did.
Brad Shreve (09:46):
Bye, jerry, have a nice life.
Hopefully you'll have a sitcomin 30 years.
Tony Maietta (09:57):
He went on to star in my Mother the Car, but he
did finally set.
Yes, brad just said he foundsome success in the sitcom Coach
in the 90s, so they needed anew executive producer.
Okay, so they needed a newexecutive producer.
Okay, we're only 13 episodesinto this season and they've
already had two major executiveproducers.
Now we need a third one.
Brad Shreve (10:13):
They put a revolving door at the entrance
for the producers and thewriters of this show a brand new
format.
Tony Maietta (10:20):
So we're up to format number three and this.
They looked to the TV producer,bill Colloran.
He was a TV producer anddirector and he's also was known
as Mr Lee Remick.
He was married to Lee Remickand he was brought in and the
great thing about Bill Colloranwas Bill Colloran helmed the
series for the rest of theepisode, so there were no more
(10:42):
new EPs.
It was Bill Colloran at thehelm.
He loved Judy.
He was a big fan of Judy's,judy loved him.
So that was good.
So we had people.
At least she felt like she hadsome kind of grounding here
after all the tumultuous youknow everything that had gone on
the past 13 episodes.
What was great about Colloranwas that he recognized the sound
(11:05):
deficiencies of the studio andhe had them bring in a
state-of-the-art sound equipmentand a handheld mic for Judy.
So when you're listening tothese later episodes and you say
you couldn't hear her before,so the sound was corrected,
there was a correction of thesound.
So usually when you hear songsfrom the show they're from the
(11:25):
later episodes because theyfinally had a decent sound
system.
You know it's crazy.
Despite all this and despiteall the problems, cbs refused to
move Judy Garland from her timeslot opposite Bonanza.
Bonanza was trouncing her.
They paid millions of dollarsto have her.
You think they go?
Okay, let's move you toSaturday night, let's give you a
(11:46):
shot.
But no, I know that doesn'tmake sense.
They were determined.
It's almost like they weredetermined to destroy her.
It's insane.
It's insane.
Brad Shreve (11:55):
Well, especially Westerns were so popular back
then that Bonanza was really afamily show in a weird way.
So why would you have them upagainst each other?
And plus, you had a ratingspowerhouse.
I mean, there's just so manyreasons that it makes no damn
sense whatsoever to why they didthat.
Tony Maietta (12:11):
No, it doesn't.
I mean, you have the idea atfirst that, yes, if anybody's,
if anybody's going to beatBonanza, it'll be Judy Garland.
Okay, we get that.
But when it was proven that itwasn't working, you think they
would have given her a shot.
But they didn't.
It's so Machiavellian, it'sfrightening.
They just it's like they wantedher to fail.
So, if that wasn't bad enough,they were about to begin
(12:37):
rehearsal for the first showunder the Collin regime and
November 22nd happens.
And Brad, do you want to tellus what happened on November
22nd?
Brad Shreve (12:50):
Unfortunately, that was the day that President John
F Kennedy was assassinated,that's right.
Who also happened to be.
Not only was Judy a hugesupporter of his, she was a good
friend of his.
Tony Maietta (13:03):
She was.
She was a personal friend ofJFK.
It's kind of gone into legendnow that she would just pick up
the phone, say, can you connectme to the White House, Can I
speak to Jack?
And she would talk to JackKennedy about the show, about
what was going on in her life,and at the end he would usually
(13:25):
ask her to sing a few bars ofOver the Rainbow to him and she
would.
Brad Shreve (13:29):
I want to jump in and say something I thought was
funny when I read quite a fewarticles about the two of them,
and I guess because of JackKennedy's reputation for being a
ladies' man, all of themstressed they were just friends.
Yeah.
Tony Maietta (13:49):
That's interesting to say that.
Yeah, I just I can't imaginethose two getting together, but
yeah, that's kind of crazy.
She was much more concernedwith David Bugleman because,
yeah, anyway, we're not going togo into that, but anyway.
So Kennedy was shot.
Judy, understandably, was amess.
I mean, you have a woman who'salready teetering on the edge
(14:11):
because of everything that'sgoing on and this just really
pushed her over.
Brad Shreve (14:13):
A lot of people cite Kennedy's assassination as
the moment when her life reallyturned and she just never seemed
to recover from that but I justwant to jump in in case the
listener doesn't know this Judysang at the Democrat National
Convention this year, so she wasshe did Big on Jack.
Tony Maietta (14:32):
She was a huge Kennedy supporter.
She was very close with PeterLawford, the president's
brother-in-law, and she was veryclose with all the Kennedys.
They invited her to Hyannis inthe summer, so she was very
close with them and she wasdevastated.
But she had a show to do.
She had to go to work.
That's the unfortunate realityof Judy Garland.
(14:53):
She worked and worked andworked and never had any money
because people were alwaysstealing from her, and so she
pulled herself together.
There was a show scheduled withBob Newhart and Bobby Darin
that she wanted to postponebecause she thought I want to do
something for the country, Iwant to do an hour of patriotic
songs to honor JFK, and thenetwork absolutely refused.
(15:17):
Can you believe that?
Brad Shreve (15:19):
I saw one of the reasons why I was aghast that
they said it was a month afterhis assassination and it'd be
all forgotten by then.
Tony Maietta (15:29):
You know who said that.
Brad Shreve (15:30):
Who the head of.
Tony Maietta (15:33):
No not Aubrey Aubrey, no, mr Stromberg.
Mr Stromberg said that Nobodywill remember Kennedy.
In six weeks it's unbelievableright.
Brad Shreve (15:45):
Yeah Well, who was Kennedy?
I don't.
It's 2020.
Who was Kennedy?
I've never heard of the man.
Tony Maietta (15:49):
So, yeah, she's just, she was just.
She's like numb, she's likewhat the I know I mean, come on.
So she's like she has no choice, though she decided to move
ahead with the Bobby, darin andNewhart show, which does have
some good moments in it.
As you said, brad, that wasactually an episode we were
going to talk about, but I askedBrad to talk about this one
instead.
So, thank you, but there's avery cute.
(16:18):
One of the very few comicscenes in the show that works is
a wonderful skit between sheand Bob Newhart, where they're
pretending to be TV viewers anddid you watch that skit?
Brad Shreve (16:23):
Yeah, I actually wanted to see more of the show
and I was only looking veryquickly and the only thing I
could find was that skit.
I'm sure if I looked deeper I'dfind the whole show and I
really enjoyed that skit.
It was very cute and very welldone and a really good
reflection of the differencebetween the earlier skits if
that's what you want to callthem in the earlier episodes to
(16:44):
one that was really done wellyeah, she had a master with her.
Tony Maietta (16:47):
She did.
She had a master with her andshe had new writers that came
with choleron and there's a.
There's a funny thing where shegoes to bob.
My favorite thing is if shegoes to Bob Newhart and she goes
.
She's playing.
This woman is watching JudyGarland on TV and she goes.
You know she hasn't sung a notein years.
She just moves her lips to oldrecords.
Brad Shreve (17:06):
And what was the song?
He said that?
Well, she did sing such andsuch she sang.
Tony Maietta (17:10):
I left my heart in San Francisco last week.
They just speeded up the TonyBennett record.
Brad Shreve (17:15):
I thought that would that actually had me bent
over that.
Tony Maietta (17:19):
It's a very cute skit, so watch that and watch
the Martha Ray Two littlebonuses and the scenes with
Bobby Darin are good, bobbyDarin, she has a medley of train
songs with Bobby Darin whichare really, really good, really
swinging.
I love Bobby Darin.
Brad Shreve (17:31):
So and I do want to speak on that episode.
So when Tony and I were pickingout episodes, I love Bob
Newhart just way beyond.
I wish people knew him morethan just a series, because he
was a brilliant standup comedian.
And Bobby Darin just makes memelt.
In fact, beyond the Sea is arecent I saw.
Tony Maietta (17:50):
I wish I could tell you a whole story.
Brad Shreve (17:51):
There's a big story behind that We'll talk about
someday.
So I was like, oh, I've got towatch this.
So Tony always lets me pick myepisode.
He will fight for the.
I'm sorry, he'll fight for theepisodes that he wants to watch,
but when we do a TV show, helets me pick the episode.
Tony Maietta (18:08):
I let you pick, but this one, yes, you do.
Brad Shreve (18:11):
This time he said you know I watched it, it's okay
, why don't you do this one?
And I'm like I remembered itwas Bob Newhart.
I totally forgot it was BobbyDarin.
Had I remembered they both wereon, I would have said no,
because it had been a whilesince we talked about it.
So I said, okay, that's fine,I'll watch the one that you
think I'd rather watch.
Okay, even though it has EarthaMerman as the.
So I will say that I am verydisappointed that I did not
(18:34):
watch that episode, because whenI saw the two of them on and
after I saw the Judy and BobNewhart skit, I thought it
seemed it looks like they reallyfinally got together.
I wish I'd watched it.
However, I do not regretwatching this.
Good, I'm glad, well, becausethis is when I said wow, they
finally are pulling it together.
Tony Maietta (18:51):
This is yeah, and the reason that I wanted to do
this episode will becomeapparent in a bit.
Brad Shreve (18:56):
Yes, we'll talk about it.
Tony Maietta (18:57):
And it was fitting that we did that yes.
And the Bobby Darin Bob Newhartshow.
Those are the only two goodsegments in that episode by the
way.
Brad Shreve (19:05):
So I'll actually say yeah, you said it was meh
overall.
Tony Maietta (19:08):
It's not a great.
She's her best friend.
One of her best friends hadjust been killed.
I mean, she's not in the bestshort, she's not in the best
shape.
It's amazing that she showed up, but she does pull it together
and she does some good stuff.
Then they did the Christmasepisode, which is a delightful
episode with the kids, with Joeyand Lorna, and Liza comes in
and it's a fun Christmas episode.
I'm sure you know it's calledthe Judy Garland Christmas show.
(19:30):
You've probably seen it.
It's wonderful.
The one and only time she singsOver the Rainbow is on this
Christmas episode and it's adelightful.
She sings it to the kids.
It's a delightful, delightfulsequence.
Brad Shreve (19:41):
And that was fitting for a treat for the
audience.
Tony Maietta (19:43):
It was, it was and it makes sense.
She's singing it at Christmastime.
It's special.
And then they took a shortbreak and they reconvened to
discuss the next show and Judysaid this.
She said I'm singing BattleHymn of the Republic as a
tribute to John F Kennedy, andif you don't like it, hunt, if
(20:04):
you don't like it, aubrey, youcan fuck off because I'm doing
it.
And this one time somebodystood by her, bill Collar, and
said absolutely we're doing it.
And they actually allowed herto do it now, you surprised me.
Brad Shreve (20:20):
I'm glad because I always trust you.
You set the record straight.
I actually did not hear that.
What did you hear?
I heard that judy did it at theend on her own doing and said
well, no, they go with it afterthey had insisted to her.
No, because this was a time whentelevision was always supposed
to be happy, so when a characterdied they always just had to
move away.
So you know I understand wherethey were coming from, given the
(20:41):
mindset of that era.
That didn't want her to do allthis stuff, but my understanding
is they never buckled, she justdid it and when, by the time it
was done, they were like runwith it well, no, they couldn't
have just created theorchestrations on the moment?
Tony Maietta (20:53):
you know, she said was doing it.
And Bill Collaren said yes, sheis going to do it.
And Aubrey said, or.
Stromberg said no one willremember JFK, as you said.
So Judy said leave it off therundown, but we're doing it.
So they eventually found out itwas going to happen and she was
adamant about it.
I'm doing it, I'm doing it.
So there was always a chancethat they would cut it.
(21:24):
But here's what they did.
Cut um is before that, duringthe dress rehearsal, before she
started singing battle him inthe republic, she looked at the
camera and said this is for you,jack, and then she sang it.
They now, when she did the, thetaped the aired version that
wasn't in it.
They took that out.
Brad Shreve (21:35):
Or she didn't say it and the version I watched
didn't have that either.
I don't know if the one you hadhad it, and that really
disappointed me, I know, giventhat time period.
And she did say to the cameraI'm going to sing a song that I
don't think is sung ontelevision, and she sang it.
Boy, she knocked my socks offand I'm not even in love with
that song, but oh God, she wasgood and you could just, it was
(21:57):
powerful, yeah, but I was reallydisappointed.
She didn't say why she wassinging it, but, granted, it was
just after Jack died.
Tony Maietta (22:04):
Well, she wanted to make sure it aired.
Everybody knew why, everybodyknew why?
Well, that's the thing.
Brad Shreve (22:10):
Everybody knew, so it is that they cut it out, but
it was probably unnecessary,given that.
Tony Maietta (22:15):
Well, and Bill Colloran said that.
Bill Colloran, the executiveproducer, said she said that and
she didn't, but it didn't air.
But before we I don't want toblow our wad here on Battle Hymn
because we got the rest of theshow- to talk about and then
we'll finish with.
We'll talk about Battle Hymn,but you liked.
So this is episode 16.
It was taped on December 16th1963, aired on January 12th 1964
(22:38):
.
The guest stars are yes, themerm is back, ethel Merman,
shelley Berman no relation and.
Peter and Peter Gennaro.
Peter Gennaro, yes, he was thechoreographer of the show at
this point.
Clip (23:21):
Well, Judy dear, are you all warmed up?
Yes, Ethel, and you sing justas loud as ever.
That's the nicest thing thatanybody ever said to me.
You know, you amaze me, Ethel,Really.
We've been doing a littledigging, and do you know that
Ethel has appeared before aBroadway audience exactly 10,836
(23:42):
times?
And look at all the marveloussongs you did in your shows the
songs you've written for you.
Tony Maietta (23:54):
There's a lot of them, Judy, all right.
Clip (23:55):
But my real favorites were the duets.
Oh, did you do duets?
Oh, of course, but nobody everknew it.
I sing so darn loud theaudience would never hear the
other singer.
They'd be able to hear you,judy.
Let's face it we're the last ofthe big belters, I see.
So we're the last of the bigbelt-ins, so let's go, come on.
Brad Shreve (24:18):
So you liked this show.
I did.
I think it could have beenbetter, but it is more along the
lines that I would have likedto have seen it Now is this the
one where the there's one of theones that the outfits were just
horrendous at the beginning, ofcourse most of them, they
looked awful.
Tony Maietta (24:34):
Oh well, they sing , everybody's doing it and
they're all like in band leaderoutfits.
Brad Shreve (24:40):
Well, there's one where they're clowns, canes oh,
that's in this.
Okay, yeah, that was horrendous, but that's because of the
outfits, but anyway, and allthat is.
I remember that.
Tony Maietta (24:48):
Yeah, I wasn't wrong about that well, it's
funny, they do, they do this,they uh, peter gennaro does this
dance to.
I Love a Parade and he's inthis kind of weird like.
He's in this bandleader uniformwith a hat.
And Judy needed to save moneyso badly that a couple episodes
later she wore that costume.
She could fit in the samecostume as Peter Gennaro.
Brad Shreve (25:12):
They're both little tiny people.
Shelly Berman did a skit that Ididn't think was the best skit
in the world, but it was funnyand made me giggle and you know
they broke away for that.
So they had singing.
They broke away for that.
Then they did singing and theybroke away for Peter Gennaro
doing a dance routine.
And they did.
Was it all three of them thatdid a dance routine together, or
just him and Judy?
(25:36):
B did a dance routine together,or just her, him and judy.
Berman and genero and judy didone together.
Yeah, I wasn't real thrilledwith the dance routine but I
liked that.
It was a break and it was aattempt at something.
To me that was more of avariety show.
I was much happier.
This is like the show I wantedto see from the beginning really
that's so interesting because Ihave the opposite reaction.
Tony Maietta (25:50):
I feel like there's no continuity here.
I feel like it's sketch, sketch, sketch, sketch.
There's no through line I.
I won't argue like that I won't.
Brad Shreve (25:58):
No, I I will not argue that I said I didn't think
it was a great show.
I I enjoyed it more becausethere was variety, as variety
shows should be but.
I don't think, just like therest of the, the whole series, I
don't think it was the bestdone show no, okay, yeah, yeah,
it's, yeah.
Tony Maietta (26:14):
I I think it's.
It's.
It's got some cute moments.
I love the fact that merman'sback, I think after she did the
barbara thing and judy was likewe gotta get.
Brad Shreve (26:23):
I gotta get merman back in because you know, we
just gotta have a show and shewas a good friend of judy's, so
that was and she was delightfuland she even joked that nobody
can hear when she's singing.
That's right.
Tony Maietta (26:34):
So that's the great friendship duet.
We're the last of the bigbelters.
And it's so funny because youknow they were friends.
Even though Judy was cast asAnnie Oakley in the film version
of you know, one of Merman'sbiggest hits, annie Get your Gun
, she was fired so she didn'tmake it.
Betty Hutton made it.
But Merman didn't seem to haveany animosity towards her like
(27:02):
she had towards Riles andRussell with Gypsy.
She really loved Judy andhere's another reason she loved
her.
By this point Judy was resortingto her old tricks and not
showing up and being late andapparently she wasn't there for
most of the week the rehearsalweek and Ethel just put up with
it.
Now you wouldn't think EthelMerman would put up with this,
but that's how much she lovedJudy and she knew what Judy was
going through.
It's also a reason why Judyseems kind of off-kilter in some
(27:26):
of these episodes.
She misses some dance steps andshe screws up the friendship
duet.
But Judy had Garland had aphotographic memory, so she just
had to hear something once orsee something once and she could
pretty much do it.
So they do that friendship duetwhich is all of Ethel's, all of
Ethel's duets.
But she says but I sing so darnloud no one could ever hear the
(27:48):
other singer.
And Judy just does it, she doesit with her, she messes up, but
she just keeps going and it'sactually quite charming, I think
.
Brad Shreve (27:56):
If I recall, she messes up and does she giggle
for a second and get right backinto it.
Yeah, she giggles and theylaugh.
Yeah, that's what I love aboutvariety shows.
That to me well, you know,carol Burnett's famous for it.
Tony Maietta (28:06):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (28:06):
But I enjoyed that.
Tony Maietta (28:18):
I was like, wow, it feels Ethel doesn't miss a
beat, if you notice.
You know why that is.
It's because even when EthelMerman is performing with
another person, she's solo.
Yeah, that's true, she is inher own world.
It's her in the audience and oh, are you here too?
Oh, okay, you know what I mean.
She's totally ignorant of theperson she's singing with.
She's not like Judy in Barbara,she's not reacting.
She's not like Judy in Barbara,she's not reacting.
She's in her own world.
And there's just this personnext to her who was also singing
(28:39):
.
But it is kind of sweet becauseafter the, after the duet, she
kind of looks at Judy and givesher an air kiss.
So you know it's, it's, it'sjust a style of performing.
That's who Merman was.
Everything was full front, loudas it could possibly be, and
that was showbiz, kids, you knowand that was showbiz kids.
Brad Shreve (28:56):
You know, yeah, and I I said that during the last
episode that I love her as anactor and comedian.
I'm not a fan of her singingand I really, really got tired
of there's no business like showbusiness, because that's all
they ever had that poor womansaying when she was on the show.
But I will say this to me whenshe stood up and sang it in the
movie airplane, it was on thefunniest moments in the movie it
was no well, she actually sang.
Tony Maietta (29:16):
Everything's coming up roses and air oh,
that's right, she did sing.
Brad Shreve (29:19):
Everything's coming up, you're right.
Tony Maietta (29:20):
Oh my god, that was funny but no, they almost,
they almost always had her singshow business.
Thank god she didn't sing it inthis episode.
Brad Shreve (29:26):
Episode she's saying uh, I get a kick out of
you and she's saying uh gee, butit's good to be here which are
two of her and and I really loveI Get a Kick Out of you, so I
was really enjoying that it waswonderful.
Tony Maietta (29:37):
It's really good it was.
Yeah, the episode definitelyhad its highlights, but I think
the reason I wanted to do thisepisode and the reason why I
wanted to change it is becauseof the trunk sequence and Battle
Hymn of the Republic.
It's just, you know, it's sothe whole thing with Kennedy and
(29:59):
the whole fact that she heldher line and she said I'm
singing this, this is, I've gotto do something for this, for
this man, and I've got to dosomething for the country, you
know the fact that she felt,that she felt so deeply about
that.
It just moves me so much.
And she sings a couple othersongs before.
She sings a song from one ofher movies, pretty Girl Milking
(30:20):
Her Cow, and she sings Puttingon the Ritz, which are fun, but
it's all just filler for this.
I mean, she's just she grabsthat mic and it's like she's
leading an army of people whenshe sings battle him, don't you
think?
Brad Shreve (30:34):
yeah, you, you let slip that.
She sings battle him.
And I, I think it's because youwere trying to sell me to
switch episodes.
Yes, uh, I thought.
Battle him in the republic.
Oh, my god, why do I want tohear that?
And it was.
It was so moving.
Yeah, isn't?
Tony Maietta (30:48):
it isn't amazing.
Brad Shreve (30:49):
It was so from the heart and the.
You know it doesn't surprise methe way judy's saying it is not
like it, just it sounded it.
It almost sounded like a lovesong.
Tony Maietta (30:58):
Her heart was on this, her guts were out.
I mean, it's that level ofemotion.
When she's singing this songAgain, something's taking over
her, and you know, what'sinteresting about it is that
there were technical problemswhen she performed it.
Her mic shorted out at onepoint.
So if you watch it reallyclosely, there's a moment where
(31:19):
her voice doesn't sync up.
They had to go to the dressrehearsal and insert a part, but
it doesn't matter.
It's like when we talked aboutthe Manchurian candidate, with
the slightly out of focus scenewith Frank Sinatra it's the
performance that matters.
They didn't redo it, becausewhat matters is the performance.
It doesn't matter that hervocals off sync.
They didn't redo it, becausewhat matters is the performance.
It doesn't matter that hervocal is off sync, it doesn't
matter if she messes up thelyrics a couple times.
(31:40):
It's the raw emotion of theperformance which is driving it
and which makes it so incredible.
Brad Shreve (31:49):
I agree.
I'm actually surprised you evensaid that, because it seemed
flawless it's amazing.
Tony Maietta (31:54):
It's amazing when she says, when she sings, when
she's talking about Christ andshe says as he died to make men
holy, let us die to make menfree.
And you can see that she'scrying and she's just barely
holding it together.
Oh my God, I'm getting chillstalking about it right now.
Brad Shreve (32:16):
And I mentioned earlier, I really liked the way
she introduced the song.
Tony Maietta (32:19):
It was kind of sweet.
Brad Shreve (32:20):
Yeah, it wasn't.
They didn't allow her to talkabout John Kennedy, so she just
said I want to sing a song thatI don't think is.
She either said it's not sungon television or not sung.
You barely ever hear it ontelevision and I just think it's
important to sing it.
That was so smart.
You barely ever hear it ontelevision and I just think it's
important to sing it.
That was so smart.
Oh yeah, and it was just.
I felt like she was talkingdirectly to me.
Tony Maietta (32:41):
It's so smart that you did that, because they
couldn't object to that.
If she had said the JackKennedy thing, they could have
said cut it, cut the whole thing, don't just cut.
But she knew that everybody inthat audience knew why she was
singing it.
She knew they knew, so shedidn't have to say that, you
know.
And another genius thing aboutthat woman and clearly the
audience did, because they notonly gave her a standing ovation
(33:01):
, I mean they were jumping upand down, they were screaming.
She was overwhelmed by theirresponse.
Brad Shreve (33:07):
Well, the country was in pain.
Tony Maietta (33:08):
They needed that, they needed that and stupid CBS,
you know.
I mean, are these people?
Brad Shreve (33:17):
human?
I guess they're not.
They're TV executives, sothey're not Exactly.
Tony Maietta (33:19):
It's amazing to me .
She was, in fact, she was sooverwhelmed and I don't know if
you noticed this, but they startto play.
Maybe I'll Come Back.
She didn't sing it, she turnedand she walked out, and good for
her.
She's like uh-uh turned and shewalked out, and good for her.
(33:40):
She's like, uh, I'm not doingthis silly end song.
How can I possibly sing a sillysong about birds roosting in a
trees and elephants in thebreeze when I've just spilled my
guts out for you for a TV show?
I mean, I love it.
She walks off and the orchestraplays it and then you just get
all these random shots of thetrunk because they don't know
what to shoot's brilliant, it'sbrilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
(34:01):
incredible episode, incrediblenow we talked about.
Brad Shreve (34:04):
I talked about how I really felt that this is where
they hit their stride, becauseit did feel more like a variety
show, even though, again, it hadits faults, as this entire show
did.
And, uh, no respect, disrespectto Judy herself, but I haven't
seen the whole entire series andI was reading some synopsis of
the show and they did say it wastowards the end of the series.
(34:25):
Chris, this was what?
Episode 18?
Mm-hmm, okay, so it wasn'treally.
This is halfway through or alittle less than that.
Yeah, they did 26 episodes, yeahbecause I did hear that towards
the end of the show it becamealmost just a Judy concert show,
which is exactly what I feltwas wrong with the show.
Tony Maietta (34:42):
Well, yes, here's what's interesting.
Brad Shreve (34:44):
And critics think that's when it got better, and
I'm sure you probably do.
I don't know, no.
Tony Maietta (34:48):
I don't necessarily.
I don't actually, but here'swhat happened.
So this was show number 16,december.
In January, cbs informed JudyGarland that her show was
canceled and her last episodewould air in March.
So they actually allowed her.
It was one of the few decentthings they did.
They allowed her to make theannouncement as if it was her
(35:10):
choice yeah, that she needed tospend more time with her family,
but it wasn't.
They canceled her and she wasdevastated.
But then she does what Judy doesand she goes.
You know what she's like.
Fuck all y'all.
I've been listening to you fora year now and you couldn't get
it right.
I'm going to do it the way Iknow it should be done.
And that's when she started theconcerts.
(35:31):
So, yes, the last handful ofepisodes are.
I don't even think it's calledthe Judy Garland show anymore.
It's called Judy Garland inconcert and it's really one
concert after the other.
There's occasionally a gueststar who comes in and she'll do
a couple songs with them, butthere's no more format, it's
just a concert series.
She finally got to do thepatriotic show she wanted to do.
(35:53):
She did a song of all patrioticsongs, cause by now CBS is like
do what you want.
Brad Shreve (35:57):
You're canceled.
Tony Maietta (35:58):
You know your ass is out.
Brad Shreve (35:59):
Well, that was funny.
I heard that they just kind ofwere like she's done, just
ignore her.
I mean yeah, exactly.
Tony Maietta (36:04):
And, and you know what the show started to pick
positive, like what's going onover there.
Suddenly the show is working,suddenly this show is not stupid
with these stupid skits and allthis stuff.
I I don't prefer the concert.
I like I love the schlatterperiod I do.
(36:27):
The first five episodes, Ithink, are there are some bad
moments, but I think they'repure, pure entertainment.
I love them.
I'm not a huge fan of theconcerts but they're a hell of a
lot better than you knowcalling her fat and a little old
lady and all that shit that shewas doing in Norman Jewison's
reign.
So, yeah, yeah, they're good,they're good.
But it was a big risk for her totry to do a TV series, a weekly
(36:50):
series, and we've just spelledout for you what happened and
why that was a risk, but she hadto do it.
She wanted the security for herfamily and for her life.
So you've got to love her forthat and just be devastated for
her by how it turned out.
Something which started out sooptimistically and on such a
high note to end the way it didis just so very sad to me.
(37:12):
It's.
Chinatown yeah it kind of is thefutility of good intentions.
So the final episode of theJudy Garland show was to be
taped on March 13th 1964.
And Judy for her, to her credit, she had high hopes initially
for a classy finale.
(37:32):
She's like I'm going to go outwith a bang, I'm going to do all
new material.
I'm going to really, I'm goingto go out with a bang, I'm going
to do all new material, I'mgoing to give them something to
see.
And she started out really wellbut she started to falter about
halfway through and she justcouldn't make it through the
show.
She just couldn't do it.
So she left the stage.
(37:54):
The studio audience eventuallyleft and then at about 3 am
suddenly there's movement andsomeone said she's coming on.
She's coming on, go get people.
So they ran out to outside thestudio where this coterie of
Garland fans always hung out,and they brought them in for the
studio audience and they satthem in the bleachers so that
(38:14):
she had her fan base there andshe did a couple numbers and
then she faltered again and thenthey called it quits at 5 am.
They had been filming since, Ithink, about 8 pm.
So they've been there a long,long time.
She came back a couple dayslater to try to do some stuff,
but she just couldn't do it.
(38:35):
She just couldn't get through.
So the last episode is ahodgepodge.
It's scenes that she shot thatnight.
It's things from old episodesthat were thrown in.
It's kind of like we saidFrankenstein, the first episode.
The last episode, ironically,is also kind of Frankensteined.
There's some good moments in it, but you can just see it in her
(38:56):
face that she's done.
She's done, it's over.
Brad Shreve (38:59):
That's disappointing.
I'm really sad.
I would love to see the last.
You know this show ended in1964.
Tony Maietta (39:04):
She died in 1969, june 22nd 1969.
And the last five years of herlife were pretty turbulent, were
pretty crazy.
(39:24):
I mean, she had incrediblehighs.
You know she did the Palladiumwith Liza.
She had incredible lows.
She was fired from Valley ofthe Dolls.
For Christ's sake, can youimagine being fired from Valley
of the Dolls but being Judy sake?
Can you imagine being firedfrom Valley of the Dolls but
being Judy Garland?
She took the wardrobe with her.
In fact, patty Duke tells a veryfunny story about working with
(39:45):
her on Valley of the Dolls andsaying that you know how could
you put?
She said she was like a littlesparrow, she was so tiny and
weak and she's like how can youput this treasure, this American
icon, through this, throughthis?
And she left and she said shefelt really bad about it, until
she went to go see her inconcert a couple months later
and she walked out in the outfitshe was wearing in Valley of
(40:09):
the Dogs.
But yes, she just her.
The rest of her life was wasnot good.
But that's why this show is soimportant.
That's why the show is sohistoric, because it's really
the last sustained period ofwork in her life.
It's really the one where sheshowed up at least until the end
every day and did her best andhad the best intentions.
(40:32):
But you're right, brad, likeChinatown, sometimes that's your
downfall yep yep and it, it wasit.
Brad Shreve (40:40):
It's almost like I wish she was just complacent
about this show and just did it.
My understanding she didn'twant to do television, except
that she needed because I saidthat early in the last episode.
I said that I heard she was didwant to retire completely, but
she didn't have the money.
Um, she needed the money andand this episode, in my
understanding she did definitelynot want to do television.
(41:00):
But when they offered her somuch money, how can you turn it
down?
You can't.
But she wasn't complacent aboutit.
But when she decided to do itshe said I'm going to run with
this.
So her heart was in it and itis very sad it didn't turn out.
Tony Maietta (41:13):
And they sold her a bill of goods.
Brad Shreve (41:15):
The way it should have been, yeah.
Tony Maietta (41:16):
So they sold her, cbs sold her a bill of goods and
, like so many other people,they took advantage of her.
And I mean I'm not going to doJudy the victim, you know,
because that's an old trope.
You know that we know is nottrue.
She was a funny, brilliantlight.
She was not a victim, but shewas victimized by many people
(41:37):
who took advantage of her.
Brad Shreve (41:38):
Yes, she was, she was.
Tony Maietta (41:40):
And one of those people, or a group of people,
was CBS.
And now I wanted to save thispart for the very end, because
all throughout these twoepisodes, we've been asking why?
Why did CBS do this?
Why did they pay her so muchmoney only to undermine her at
(42:02):
every step of the process,changing formats, firing
producers.
It's madness.
Brad Shreve (42:09):
It's nothing short of crazy.
Tony Maietta (42:11):
Well, there may be a reason, a theory as to why
this all happened.
Now, in our last episode, youread off a list of the top 10
shows on television in 1963.
Beverly Hillbillies, Bonanza,Dick Van Dyke, Lucy Perry, Mason
, Red Skelton Remember that yeah, yes.
(42:33):
All right, and you said they allhad something in common.
Remember that, yeah, yes, allright, and you said they all had
something in common.
They were all dramas orcomedies, except one which was a
variety show.
Well, they had something elsein common they were all CBS
shows, except one of them, andwhich one was that?
Brad?
Brad Shreve (42:53):
Bonanza.
Tony Maietta (42:54):
Exactly Ding ding ding Bonanza.
Exactly Ding ding ding Bonanza.
And the theory is that thisdrove CBS president Jim Aubrey,
aka the smiling cobra, crazy.
He wanted a clean CBS sweep ofthe top ten and the Ponderosa
boys were standing in his way.
(43:16):
He was obsessed with beatingBonanza and nobody else had ever
been able to do that in thattime slot, except one person who
showed that she could actuallybeat Bonanza in her special with
Dean and Frank Judy.
So, allegedly to Aubrey, itwasn't about making great
(43:37):
television or a great televisionshow or Judy Garland.
It was about it was all aboutbeating Bonanza.
It was about a clean CBS sweepof the top 10.
And that's why he wasconstantly interfering with the
series, firing producers,changing formats and then
finally, when he realized Judywasn't going to be able to beat
(43:58):
them in her weekly series, heset her loose.
Brad Shreve (44:02):
Wow, that is obsession.
That's really sad.
Tony Maietta (44:05):
So what happened to the Judy Garland show?
It's done Now.
It was owned by Judy.
Judy owned it along with hernow ex-husband, sid Luft.
It languished in legal hell fordecades.
She thought about rerunning itbut nobody wanted to rerun it in
her lifetime.
(44:26):
And it was only after Sid Luftin like I think 79 or 80,
finally got control of the showand they brought the tapes out
and he slowly started lettingthem be seen.
And this is.
You know, there's a lot ofthings to say about Sid Luft,
but this is a wonderful thingthat he did because the show was
(44:47):
finally being seen andre-evaluated.
People had heard of or they'dseen.
You know, in 1963, they saw theBarbra Streisand episode or
they'd heard about it, but theyhadn't.
They saw the Barbra Streisandepisode, or they'd heard about
it but they hadn't seen it.
I remember seeing this, as Isaid, when I was in college I
think and just being blown awayby it.
And all they had, all we had,of the show was the memory and
(45:08):
Nell Torme's horrible book whichpaints such a bad picture.
And then, when the seriesstarted to come out and then it
was released on DVD in pristinecondition, which I was like
first in line to get the box setfor this.
I'm blown away by the artistry,by the talent, and there's a
wonderful book that I love,written by the late, great Steve
(45:29):
Sanders, who was.
I knew him, he was a wonderfulguy and he wrote a wonderful
book called Rainbow's End, whichso much of this information.
If you want to know more aboutthe series, read this book.
It's a fantastic book,verifiable paints, a perfectly
honest portrait of Judy and whatthe show was and what she went
through, and I hope that we, inpodcast form, have done that as
(45:52):
well today.
Brad.
Brad Shreve (45:54):
I think we did.
I think we gave her a goodsalute and a fitting tribute.
I do too.
Tony Maietta (46:00):
I do too, and I appreciated your opinions and
you went easy on me, I think.
Brad Shreve (46:07):
I went easy on you.
I was honest but gentle, but itwasn't really gentle.
I was honest, but everything Isaid to soften the blow was as
heartfelt Good.
Tony Maietta (46:17):
Well, we got some great stuff coming up for you in
future episodes.
Brad, Do you want to talk alittle bit about what's going on
here, what we got coming up?
Brad Shreve (46:27):
Well, next week, if we go on schedule and we've
been doing a pretty good job ofit, let's just say it's going to
be a total different direction.
Tony Maietta (46:35):
But you know it is , it is June, it is pride month,
so it's not that, it's not thatoff base.
You know what I'm saying?
It's not.
Brad Shreve (46:43):
We, when we agreed on it, we were kind of
stretching on it, but yeah, itis fitting for for June month,
Cause I will say, as a young manI was like, but there's a
teaser.
Yeah, there is a teaser.
It is, though.
It is not a happy film.
It's a drama, very seriousdrama, that I don't I think is
completely overlooked these days, and I don't know why.
Before we say goodbye, asalways, I want to remind those
(47:06):
that are listening to us thefirst few times please subscribe
, and if you've been listeningto us for a while, leave a
review, because not only will itmake us happy, you'll feel
better for it too.
Tony Maietta (47:15):
That's true.
That's true.
I appreciate that.
Well, brad, I know I only haveone thing left to say but, even
that I don't want to say.
So let's not say goodbye, let'ssay au revoir.
Brad Shreve (47:31):
No, it's time to say goodbye.
Tony Maietta (47:33):
Goodbye, everybody .
Clip (47:42):
That's all folks.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.