October 29, 2025 • 47 mins
We interrupt our scheduled programs for a special milestone: one million views on Tony's "Wired" interview on YouTube! This occasion opened the door for a bigger conversation, so we pulled up a chair and dug in.
Brad asks some questions that blew past the YouTube cut: what we actually know about Natalie Wood’s final night, why rumor loves tidy villains, and how to honor a legacy without letting tragedy swallow it whole. From there, we build a clear, no-filler Elizabeth Taylor film watch list, take a deeper dive into Hollywood's gay history, and we revisit the story of Loretta Young and Clark Gable's secret love child and the lengths she took to protect her image, showing what the Production Code demanded—and what it broke.
We also take the opportunity to give much overdue shout-outs to some of the kind people who took the time to rate and review us, and give us their thoughts on which classic we should tackle next.
So, hit play for a candid, story-driven tour through Old Hollywood facts, modern myths, and the business decisions that still shape what we see. If you learned something or built a new watchlist, share this episode with a friend, follow the show, and leave a review.
And don't forget to drop a quarter in the "swear jar"!! (If you know, you know.)
To watch Tony's WIRED video "Tech Support: Old Hollywood" go to https://youtu.be/6hxXfxhQSz0?si=TO4Xv6q87XhBnqDT
To listen to "Origins: Sex and the City" hosted by James Andrew Miller got to https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/origins-with-james-andrew-miller/id1266445999?i=1000423827162
Text us & We'll Respond on an Episode
Links to Tony's website, and Brad's website at www.goinghollywoodpodcast.com
Follow us on Instagram @goinghollywoodpod
To watch "The True Story of the Barrymores," go to https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0CZTHYN6D/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r
To watch Tony's WIRED video "Tech Support: Old Hollywood" go to https://youtu.be/6hxXfxhQSz0?si=TO4Xv6q87XhBnqDT
Reach us at goinghollywoodpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tony Maietta (00:04):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maeta.
Brad Shreve (00:08):
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who
likes movies.
Tony Maietta (00:11):
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.
Brad Shreve (00:18):
And of course, being the average guy, my
opinions are the ones thatmatter.
Tony Maietta (00:23):
As does your self-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood.
Brad Shreve (00:28):
Tony, you know why we are doing this episode.
Tony Maietta (00:31):
No, I don't.
I'm hiding the corner.
Do it yourself.
Brad Shreve (00:38):
Listener, Tony has hit a major milestone, and I am
so proud of him.
He doesn't mean his age either.
Tony Maietta (00:46):
Not yet.
Not yet.
Brad Shreve (00:48):
Well, you've told me a little bit about your past.
You should be proud that you'vereached it this far as well.
But shut up.
A few months ago, Tony did aspot for Wired magazine.
I guess it's a magazine.
They have a YouTube channel.
It's very popular whereexperts, experts come on and
they answer questions.
And Tony was invited on toanswer some questions.
(01:09):
The title of the show is FilmHistorian Answers Old Hollywood
Questions.
Right.
Tech Support.
The show's called Tech Support.
So Tony was a guest and justrecently hit the 1 million
views.
Tony Maietta (01:23):
What?
Get out.
What?
Is that true?
Is that true?
Like I wasn't sitting there.
Like I wasn't sitting therewatching it like a ticker tape.
Ooh, 977,001.
977,002.
I don't know.
What happened?
Suddenly, one country must havejust all listened to it at once
because it went from it waslike stalled at 994.
(01:45):
And then suddenly, the nextthing I knew, it was a million.
So yes, thank you, Brad.
Thank you for that intro.
We talked a bit about the Wiredvideo when we talked about uh
Seven Year Rich because of theMarilyn Monroe question.
And it was an incredibleexperience.
I'm so grateful.
I'm so grateful to Wiredmagazine.
Have me back.
Have me back, please.
I was so grateful to Wiredmagazine.
I'm so grateful to the peoplewho submitted the questions.
(02:07):
And it's such an interestingconcept.
You know, it is.
It's experts, and I'm honoredand humbled to be called that.
Um, but I mean, I there'schannels up there.
Who's up there?
There's people who talk aboutetiquette up there.
There's people who talk aboutpolitics up there.
I think uh I think there'sArnold's on one of them, which
(02:27):
I'm not thrilled to be on thesame podcast as Arnold, but what
are you gonna do?
Uh Arnold's on there.
Marky, I almost called himMarky Mark.
What the hell?
Hello, 1993.
Mark Wahlberg is up there doingone.
So yeah, I feel I feel inreally vaulted company in that.
Brad Shreve (02:45):
It's great.
I've seen everything fromstand-up comedians talking about
what makes things funny toscientists talking about what
happens when you die in anuclear war.
I mean, it's across the board.
Tony Maietta (02:56):
I'm somewhere in between.
Yeah, I'm somewhere in betweenMatteo Lane and Dr.
Fauci.
Yes, somewhere in there is me.
Brad Shreve (03:05):
Old Hollywood.
We'll let you decide which onehe's closest to.
Tony Maietta (03:12):
Yeah, that's very true.
Brad Shreve (03:13):
So the thing is, these episodes are usually about
a half an hour long.
Tony's is uh 25 minutes, and hehad to answer a lot of
questions.
I did.
And I know Tony.
To answer a lot of questions in25 minutes is not his thing.
Tony Maietta (03:28):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (03:30):
He clearly had to either edit himself or was that.
Tony Maietta (03:34):
I had no, I was not probably a little of both.
I did not edit, if you notice.
Uh, it was not, please, Iwasn't editing this.
They edited it.
They edited it.
If you think if I had editedit, I would have said, My God,
what's going on with your hair?
That's the first thing I wouldhave said was, can somebody get
him a comb, please?
Um, we do this without makeup,folks.
Um, so yeah, no, I didn't editit.
(03:56):
They edited, they edited it.
And it's interesting how theydid it.
They did a lot of jump cuts,which I guess is what the kids
do today on the internet on theinternet.
Yeah, jump cuts are very big onYouTube.
Lots of jump cuts.
And so they cut out somethings.
I was like, oh, that was a fun,I just had a joke there that
you cut.
Oh, you cut that joke.
But anyway, nitpicking.
So thrilled.
I loved the questions.
I loved the questions.
(04:17):
Um, and we have, you know, andso Brad and I were talking about
it, and we thought for those ofyou who didn't have a chance to
see it, or for those of you whomaybe did and want more
information, because I hell, asBrad just said, I had a lot to
say, and a lot of it was cut.
Um, so I can maybe give somemore information.
So, do you want to tell peoplewhat we're gonna do in the
structure of this episode ofGoing Hollywood?
Brad Shreve (04:41):
Well, there are certain questions that were
asked that I had a particularinterest in, and of course, you
weren't given time, just theformat of the show, to answer
them as thoroughly as I wouldhave liked.
So I want you to elaborate someof the things that you just
want to do.
Tony Maietta (04:58):
Let's let's give it a shot.
Let's see what happens.
It could get dangerous, butlet's give it a shot.
Brad Shreve (05:05):
You are the expert, so I expect you to know all of
this.
Shoot.
The first one I want to talkabout is Natalie Wood's death.
And there's a reason for this.
I I am not a fan of conspiracytheories because they're 99% of
them are ridiculous and usuallyinvolve so many people that
somebody would talk and theywould have been caught.
(05:26):
But I've heard even though Istill believe it was an
accident, I've heard enough theI the possibility of a scandal
it seems more real to me thanother things.
I still don't believe it, butit seems like a real
possibility.
Tell me more about Natalie'sdeath.
Okay.
Tony Maietta (05:46):
Well, you realize I I wasn't there, right?
I mean, I know I'm old, but umyeah, I wasn't I I wasn't there,
and what I said, what I saidthat unfortunately, or maybe did
make it, and I don't remember.
What I said was unfortunately,nobody knows what happened that
night except Natalie Wood, andshe's no longer with us.
Um but so for people who don'tknow, Natalie Wood, a wonderful,
(06:09):
iconic classic film star fromthe 50s and 60s, Rebel Without a
Cause, Gypsy, Splendor in theGrass.
Um, she died uh Thanksgivingweekend in 1981.
She was found floating inCatalina Harbor.
She had been out on the verycold, very wet Thanksgiving
weekend with her husband, RJWagner, Robert Wagner, and her
(06:33):
future and her co-star from afilm she was making.
The film was called Brainstorm,and the co-star was Christopher
Walken.
And I think it was Sundaymorning, her body was discovered
in Catalina Harbor.
Nobody knows what happened.
So Brad wants to know.
So the theory is the most themost verifiable air quotes, if
you can say, is that uh they hadbeen drinking, they'd been
(06:54):
partying, they'd been drinking,there had been some
uncomfortable conversationsbetween RJ Wagner and
Christopher Walken.
Natalie Wood went, you know,y'all, I'm going to bed,
whatever.
And she went downstairs, wentdown below.
I'm sorry, nautical terms.
She went below to their cabin,and she was getting dressed to
go to bed in her and she was inher nightgown, and there was a
(07:15):
dinghy on the side attached tothe side of the boat, which it
was a very, as I said, it was astormy, cold weekend.
It kept the waves kept bangingthe dinghy against the boat, and
she was getting frustrated.
So the theory is that she puther parka on, that was a
downfilled parka, went outsidein her nightgown, her socks and
her parka to retie the dinghy,and slipped on the step going
(07:40):
down the dinghy, hit her head,and fell in the ocean.
And she had been drinking.
Uh the autopsy clearly showedthat she had a very high blood
alcohol content.
Um, but also what's really sadis that you know her parka was
downfilled.
So it started to absorb waterand was pulling her down, which
(08:02):
is what's really sad.
So apparently, some there'ssome speculation.
People heard someone, a womanyelling, whatever.
All they know is the nextRobert Walker and Robert, Robert
Wagner and Christopher Walkenwent down and she was nowhere to
be found.
And you know, they called theCoast Guard and she was found
the next morning.
So what you're saying is thatyou've heard speculation, what,
(08:22):
that there was foul playinvolved?
Brad Shreve (08:24):
Yes, I heard there was foul play involved.
The first one I've heard isthat uh supposedly Christopher
Walken and Natalie were having afling, and Robert found out
about it and took matters in hisown hands.
The other, and I can't rememberthe the details that they've
given to try and explain why ithappened, were that Wagner and
(08:47):
Walken together plannedsomething.
Wow.
Tony Maietta (08:52):
There are some theories.
Yes, well, you know, there's alot of speculation.
There's a lot of speculation.
There was actually a book, umuh Dennis Deverne, who the he
wasn't the captain.
I don't know what it is, soexcuse me, I don't know the
exact nautical term for whatDennis DeVerne was.
I well, I want to say firstmate, but I don't think that's
right.
Anyway, he allegedly he's theone with these people with
(09:12):
conspiracy theories because hewas actually he was there that
night.
Um, and he wrote a book aboutwhat happened.
Uh, he doesn't really tellanything about what happened, he
just gives his suspicions.
Natalie Wood's sister, Lana, isalso a great purveyor of these
rumors.
Um, the one, yes, uh the thingabout Walken and Wood is that
(09:34):
Natalie was just getting backinto her film career.
She'd taken some time off tohave her family and she was
coming back.
She was definitely a comebackmode.
And she was very, very Walkenwas a new generation of actor.
And so I think RJ was, therewas arguments, and RJ was
jealous of Natalie'srelationship with Walken, but it
was a professional thing.
And RJ Wagner admits tobreaking a bottle that night up
(09:55):
when they were up in the cabinand saying, you know, are you
fucking my wife, or somethinglike that?
And I want to point out there'sa wonderful documentary on HBO
that Natalie Wood's daughtermade, um, called What Remains
Behind, I think that's the nameof it, and goes into this.
Um, where Robert Wagnerconfesses, yes, there were
words.
But the idea that there wassome kind of illicit
(10:19):
relationship, no.
I don't, I don't think thatholds water.
I certainly don't believe thatthe two of them got together.
Natalie, RJ Wagner, they wereremarried, you know.
They fell in love when theywere very young, they had
difficulties, they split up, andthen they found their way back
together.
And I think what's so sad aboutit, regardless of what really
happened, the reason thatdoesn't seem right to me is
(10:39):
because I because why?
Why would RJ Wagner do this?
Natalie was the love of hislife.
They came back together afterbeing separated for so long.
The man was clearly devastated.
He had two young daughters.
I just I don't believe that.
I believe it was a tragicaccident.
But again, the only person whoreally knows what happened is no
(10:59):
longer with us because it wasNatalie Wood.
Just a very sad, sad ending.
The fact was also very sad isthat that becomes the focus of
Natalie Wood's life, not theincredible body of work she
left.
Sex in the Single Girl, Gypsy,uh, Bob Carroll and Ted Nalis.
You know, I mean, these thiswonderful, not even to mention
Rebel Without a Cause.
That becomes the focus, is howshe died, not how she lived.
(11:22):
I prefer to think how shelived.
Brad Shreve (11:24):
That's the way I feel about it.
Let's leave it at that andthink about the great things she
did in her life.
Tony Maietta (11:29):
Yes.
The documentary is called WhatRemains Behind, Natasha, Gregs,
and Wagner's.
Beautiful, beautiful tribute toher mother.
There's also a book.
Brad Shreve (11:36):
So next question.
Next question from theinternet.
The next question is aboutElizabeth Taylor.
And this is one I probablyshould hang my head in shame
because you talk quite a bit.
People are asking aboutElizabeth Taylor, and you talk
about some of the great moviesshe uh it w it was in and what a
megastar she was.
And you know, I've seen verylittle of Elizabeth Taylor, and
(11:57):
to say I'm not a huge fan, I'mgonna say that, but it's not
very nice because I only knewher in her later years when she
wasn't.
Tony Maietta (12:04):
You want to know about Elizabeth Taylor's films?
You want to know about hercareer?
Brad Shreve (12:09):
I don't know a whole lot about Elizabeth Taylor
other than the good works thatshe did.
I know very little about herfilm career.
And off the top of my head, Ican't think of anything that I I
really was astounded by.
So I would like you to tell me,if I'm going to gain an
appreciation for ElizabethTaylor, what should I watch?
Oh, okay.
Tony Maietta (12:29):
Well, I think that that question from the internet
that was funny because I thinkthe question was my roommate
told me he didn't know whoElizabeth Taylor was, and I
almost had a stroke.
And my my response was, I had astroke reading that question.
But they cut that, which Ithought was very funny.
Um so which film?
Well, you know what?
This is a long movie career.
I mean, Elizabeth Taylor was infilms from the time when she
(12:51):
was a child.
National Velvet to uh I thinkshe was in the Flintstones.
I mean, that's a long moviecareer.
National Velvet, I think, is46, 47.
Don't hate me if I'm notexactly right with that.
Um, but she was a young girl.
So, films to watch.
I mean, it depends on whatstage of Elizabeth Taylor you
want to see.
For me, number one, front andcenter is her Oscar-winning
(13:14):
performance in Who's Afraid ofVirginia Wolf?
To me, I think that she givesone of the greatest film
performances of a theater pieceever.
Ever.
Now, that, you know, I'm surepeople will have debate about
that, but Who's Afraid ofVirginia Wolf is a very talky,
very stagy play.
And Mike Nichols, who directedit, managed to make it a very
(13:36):
cinematic film, which is not aneasy thing to do.
We've talked about movies likethat.
Hello, we just talked about thebad seed and how it's just
basically a filmed play.
Um, and Nichols was able to dothings, but primarily what he
was able to do was get cinematicperformances out of these
actors.
Every one of them had worked ontheater except Elizabeth
(13:59):
Taylor.
And Elizabeth Taylor gives sucha nuanced spectrum of emotions
in this film.
I would, oh my god, it's it'sheartbreaking.
I was we should talk aboutwho's afraid of Virginia Wolf
sometime.
Because she goes toe toe toe totoe with Richard Burton and she
does not hold back.
She is loud, she is abrasive,she is ballsy, but she's also in
(14:22):
moments when it counts, she hasa wonderful monologue at the
screen door, very quiet, veryreal.
And I hardly recommend that.
If you want to see a reallygreat Elizabeth Taylor
pre-Richard Burton film, Ihighly recommend Suddenly Last
Summer.
In fact, I think I was gonnasuggest it as one of our air
quote scary movies this monthbecause this is you know,
(14:44):
because it's a very it's anotoriously campy.
Have you ever seen SuddenlyLast Summer with uh uh Catherine
Hepburn, Montgomery Clift, andElizabeth Taylor based on the
Tennessee Williams play?
No.
Brad Shreve (14:56):
Um based on the cast, I'm almost certain I have
not.
Tony Maietta (14:58):
It's a brilliant film.
Uh, I'm not gonna go too muchon the plot because I hope we
talk about it sometime.
But she's wonderful in it.
She is raw.
She is she basically plays awoman who's fighting her aunt
not to force a lobotomy on her.
Tennessee Williams.
Um, yeah, it's it's starling.
She has a wonderful scene,breakdown scene.
(15:20):
She's wonderful in it.
Uh, same thing with Cat on theHot Ten Roof, which is right
before Suddenly Last Summer,another Tennessee Williams play.
Um, and I would reallyrecommend for people, and don't
laugh at me, I would recommendCleopatra.
Cleopatra, despite itsreputation, is a wonderful film.
Now, yes, it's way too long,and there's an actually an
(15:41):
incredible, there's a lot ofincredible stories about
Cleopatra, which I we don't havetime to go into.
But you have to take your mindout of the fact that you've
heard this is a terrible bomb,this was the biggest bomb in the
in the world.
No, it eventually made aprofit.
Now, it changed Hollywood, andwe're not going to go into that,
but she in Cleopatra, directedby Joseph Mankowitz, Joseph L.
(16:02):
Mankowitz, who also directedher and suddenly last summer,
gets a wonderful performancefrom her.
And she fell in love withRichard Burton during the making
of it and caused this hugescandal, La Scandale, condemned
by the Vatican.
Um, and you see that, you seethe tenderness in her when she's
with Richard Burton.
You she also has a wonderfulrelationship with Rex Harrison
(16:23):
as Julius Caesar.
Highly recommend it.
So I think those would bethree.
I would definitely remindVirginia Wolf, Suddenly Last
Summer, if you want to add tothat, Cat on the Hutton Roof,
certainly, if not just to seePaul Newman in his shirtless
glory.
Um and then if you have acouple weeks, Cleopatra.
That's the ones I wouldrecommend.
Brad Shreve (16:46):
And I do want to ask about one particular movie,
but first I want to commentabout Cleopatra.
I I know I watched it ages ago,but you know, usually a box
office bomb is a reflection onthe quality of the film, but not
always.
There have been some greatfilms that were bombs, it's just
a matter of circumstance.
So I'm gonna take your wordthat maybe this was the
situation with Cleopatra.
I do want to ask about Giant,and uh there's a particular
(17:09):
reason and I am going off trackhere because this isn't what you
discussed.
Only because I remember itbeing a really good film, but it
was ages ago, and now I'mwondering if it's just because I
like the cast.
Tony Maietta (17:19):
Well, I gotta warn you.
First of all, I want to sayCleopatra was not a bomb.
That's Cleopatra was thehighest-grossing movie of 1963.
It was not a bomb.
Oh, it made more money than anyother movie in 1963, but it
also cost more than any othermovie in film history.
So it took a while to make aprofit, but it eventually did,
and it continues to.
So the myth about Cleopatrabeing this huge bomb is a myth.
(17:42):
It's also a myth that itbankrupt 20th Century Fox.
It did not bankrupt 20thCentury Fox.
Um, it didn't cause the studioto sell their backlot.
That was happening long beforeCleopatra was ever in
production.
So those are just myths aboutit.
Um, Giant.
Giant is a great film, but I'mnot, I don't want you to watch
it because it was directed byGeorge Stevens.
(18:04):
And we all know how Brad feelsif you've listened to this
podcast, how Brad feels aboutGeorge Stevens.
She's good and she's not it'snot a movie I would recommend
for Cleop to see ElizabethTaylor.
It's a movie I'd recommend ifyou want to see an epic, huge
giant, what you know, what wasemblematic of the mid-50s, and
(18:24):
and Rock Hudson gives awonderful performance, but I
wouldn't recommend it forElizabeth Taylor.
James Dean also, his last film.
Uh he died when they were stillfilming.
So if you want to see an epic,a grand epic before the the
huge, huge epics like Cleopatra,then I would absolutely
recommend Giant.
It's a wonderful film, but it'sGeorge Stevens.
Just I'm just saying that.
Brad Shreve (18:46):
Well, I'm amazed I said I remember liking it.
Oh, right.
Tony Maietta (18:49):
Maybe we watched the wrong George Stevens movies.
Brad Shreve (18:52):
Well, I have some more questions, but first, you
had some things you wanted tosay about some of our listeners.
Tony Maietta (18:56):
Oh my god, we got some reviews.
That yeah, let's take a littlebreak because there's there's
reviews that that okay.
I'm sorry, listeners, audience,I didn't realize that you could
leave reviews on Spotify.
I'm new to this podcastingthing.
It's so funny.
And I just like was all of asudden I was like, oh my god,
(19:18):
there's reviews from Spotify.
And I just want to say, um, thething about Spotify is that you
you have to go through thespecific specific episode for
the review.
So I just want to say hi toDaniel Lancaster.
This is um, he's left us otherreviews before.
We've talked about him before.
You you know who I'm talkingabout here, Brad, right?
He's he's from Switzerland,which uh love you already that
(19:39):
you're from Switzerland.
Um reserve me a room.
If I can't yeah, just reserveme a room.
Um and he uh he he was very hewas very, very, very flattering,
Brad, about our two GoldenGirls episodes.
And he said it made him he andhis partner want to re-watch
this great show again because itwas so advanced and they spoke
(20:00):
about so many current topics.
So we are so happy that you'relistening, Daniel.
In Switzerland, which isamazing.
And Gestad?
Is it Gestad, maybe?
Um, love it.
Zurich.
Oh, is it Zurich?
It's Zurich.
I'm sorry.
Okay, well, Brad knows.
Zurich.
So thank you.
And then Sam Wise, and I'mgonna read Sam's.
Uh Sam Wise said, Tony, you'rereally just going to drop the
(20:21):
fact that you were on an episodeof Golden Girls and not fully
flesh out that experience.
Question mark, question mark,question mark.
It must have been the ManjaCavallo curse.
And I'm pretty sure when I justwent back and watched that one,
I spotted you in the backgroundof a few scenes.
Wow.
Daniel, yes, it was the ManjaCavallo curse makes a lousy
wedding present.
Season five.
You have good eyes because Idon't even recognize myself when
(20:44):
I look at the Manja Cavallocurse.
Because wow, I'm just uh22-year-old, fresh face, huge
hair.
Oh, I miss the 90s.
Um, it was a wonderfulexperience.
I didn't want the Golden Girlsepisodes to be about me and shut
up, Brad.
I didn't want them to be aboutme and my experience on Golden
Girls.
I just mentioned that I was onGolden Girls to give the
(21:06):
context, primarily about the B.
Arthur Betty White thing, andjust to say, look, I was there,
I was on the set, I saw nothingof these rumors that these women
didn't like each other.
And I also think it's prettycool that I was on Golden Girls.
I mean, it's something that I'mvery proud of.
So yeah, it was a lot of fun.
It was an incredibleexperience.
I was there almost the entireweek.
So I got to talk to Betty Whiteabout the Mary Tyler Moore
(21:27):
show.
She said it's as Betty Whitewas, she was so gracious, so
kind.
Um, she said it was just likeworking on the Golden Girls, the
kind of love on the set.
And there was one very funnything, though, and this is the
last thing I'm gonna say aboutit, because this really is about
me, and I don't like that.
Um, so we're sitting at thewe're sitting at the table, this
the one of the scenes takesplace at a wedding reception,
(21:48):
and it was a very long, it wasthe last day, and it was a very,
very long shoot, as you canimagine.
There are a lot of people.
And we're sitting there, and uhRue turns to me and the girl
who was playing my date at thewedding, and she says, Still
want to be in show business?
It's tedious, isn't it?
Oh wait, wait, no, no, that waswrong, that's wrong.
I got that backwards, I got thebackwards, I got the backwards.
(22:09):
Wait a minute.
We're sitting there, I'm sorry,memory, we're sitting there,
and B.
Arthur turns to me and the girlI was sitting with and says,
Still want to be in showbusiness.
And then Rue said, It'stedious, isn't it?
And I just remember her leg wascrossed and her leg was
bouncing up and down with herhigh heel.
(22:30):
It was just it was arheumaclantic thing.
Anyway, that's it.
That's my gold girlsexperience.
Thanks.
Brad Shreve (22:35):
And I have a couple to add to this.
Uh, one is Nicole Maddox, andwe have a big apology to give
Nicole because she has not justcommented, she's commented
numerous times.
And uh I'm gonna go back to hervery first one that I see.
And she said, I just want topop in and say, I love this
podcast.
I'm a big classic movie loverand enjoy the back and forth
(22:56):
commentary.
And uh, she makes somerecommendations and then says,
keep up the great storytelling,gentlemen.
Then one of her more recentones is from I Remember Mama.
And I'm only bringing this oneup because she put, love the
show, gentlemen.
Tony, let's give Brad one morechance with George.
Which is I which is funnybecause that leads us into the
(23:19):
giant, and I didn't rememberhaving seen this, so that was
totally plan.
Yeah, there you go.
Yes.
Tony Maietta (23:27):
He liked a George Stevens movie, even though he
doesn't remember it.
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (23:31):
Yes.
So as I've said before, I don'twant to make promises, but this
one I'm gonna put on the agendasomewhere.
So coming up, we will haveanother one.
And she's made some commentssince then as well.
She's great, thank you.
She's great.
Yes.
The other person uh wasJeffnician.
I love your name, Jeffnician.
And uh he commented that heloved they shoot horses, don't
(23:53):
they?
And just wanted to sayexcellent pie.
Oh, that's nice.
Thank you to all of you.
Tony Maietta (23:57):
Thank you, thank you.
You know, we just I've say amillion times, we appreciate it
so much, and we're gonnacontinue to give updates with
these reviews because I thinkit's important because we we
appreciate it so much.
We want to say thank you.
You know, we we love weappreciate we want to give the
love back, you know, through thethrough the Ethernet or
whatever the hell this is.
So please give me a break.
(24:18):
This is how we get paid.
Exactly, exactly.
We're the we're rich in thiskind of thing.
So thank you so much.
Brad Shreve (24:26):
So back to some more questions.
Closeted stars that we now knowwere gay.
I'd like to know a little bitmore about them.
Not just rumored that we can gothere.
I mean, I've heard rumors and II just can't believe them that
Sarah Ian McKellen is gay.
Well, you know, I don't likeyou know I don't like dealing in
rumors.
So when you answer thisquestion, I wanted you to focus
(24:47):
on the people most people thatare probably not aware that
we're closeted gay.
If there are any left.
Tony Maietta (24:56):
Well, I mean Well, that's the thing.
I mean, who has a secretanymore?
Up so many people people aredead.
Because I don't like, you know,I I don't like trafficking and
speculation.
Um I I can't really say unlessit's common knowledge now.
How would I how would I knowthat?
I wasn't there.
I know.
Same thing with Natalie Woodsthe day that the night Natalie
(25:16):
Wood died.
Um I've I could maybe like fardid I mention Farley Granger?
I think I mentioned him onWard.
Farley Granger, who wrote abook called Include Me Out, was
pretty open though during theGolden Age, which was which was
very, very scary and veryunusual.
For Farley Granger's he was agorgeous man.
(25:37):
He I was actually in arelationship with Arthur
Lawrence, who we talked aboutduring Rope.
He and Arthur Lorentz, orLawrence, whichever you want,
um, were in a relationship, andI think during the time they
were making rope, too.
So uh Tab Hunter, uh who cameout later, he wrote a wonderful
book called Tab HunterConfidential.
(26:00):
And he and Rock Hudson, who youmight have heard of, once or
twice.
We were both represented by thenotorious Henry Wilson.
Henry Wilson was pretty much uhthe man who invented these
people.
He invented a bunch of these.
Um John Saxon was also one ofhis clients.
RJ Wagner was one of hisclients.
(26:22):
He represented these beautifulboys back in the 50s.
And he actually sold Tab Hunterwas before Rock, and he
actually sold out Tab toConfidential Magazine to protect
Rock.
Confidential had a story aboutTab attending an all-male party,
and they were going to publishit.
And then they had one aboutRock.
Well, Rock was a bigger boxoffice star.
(26:43):
So Wilson said, if I give youthis on Tab, will you forget
about Rock?
And that's exactly whathappened.
So, and then of course we haveMontgomery Clift, who was gay at
least bisexual, but pretty waspretty much standard gay because
he also had a relationship withwomen.
Um, but he was had arelationship with Roddy.
Maybe Roddy's somebody that youdon't know offhand that Roddy
(27:06):
McDowell was was gay.
We don't really think of Roddythat because Roddy wasn't a sex
symbol.
I don't think we necessarilythink of Roddy in sexual terms,
although he was adorable.
Um and Roddy was definitely inlove with Montgomery Clift.
Definitely.
Uh they they had a relationshipof some kind.
So uh there's Roddy as well.
Um, Jack Larson, who playedJimmy Olson on the Superman
(27:27):
series, uh, was also a dearfriend of Montgomery Cliff's and
also in that kind of gay sewingcircle.
There's one I didn't know.
Um, and you know, lesbians,Garbo, Dietrich, it's hard
because as I said before, likewith Cary Grant, it's hard for
us to take our 21st centuryideals of what sexuality is and
put them on 20th century,mid-20th century, because it was
(27:50):
just different.
You know, people weren'tnecessarily gay, lined,
straight, kind of like the kidsare now.
You know, we said this before.
They got the right idea.
They're just whatever attractsthem is where they go.
So you had people like Garbowho had relationships with men
and relationships with women.
Same thing with Dietrich.
Mercedes DeCosta, good friendof Garbo's, same thing.
Although I think she wasprimarily lesbian.
(28:12):
And of course, Hepburn.
Hepburn had relationships withmen, Hepburn had relationships
with women.
Hepburn was just Hepburn.
Same thing in Cary Grant.
Cary Grant was mostlyinterested in Cary Grant.
So if it was going to be arelationship with a man that
would push him forward when hewas in the theater when he was
Archie Leach, probably had a lotof relationships with men.
Ori Kelly, we talked aboutthat, the costume designer.
(28:35):
Um, but then when he got toHollywood into a much more
conservative atmosphere and amuch more conservative
environment, and he became CaryGrant, you know, he had to then
start.
He was then with women.
He was married five times.
Um, did he have a relationshipwith Randolph Scott?
Maybe, maybe not.
Who knows?
I wasn't there.
So those are some of the peopleI can think of.
Brad Shreve (28:55):
And there are a lot of articles online about him
and Randolph Scott, and but noneof them seem like very um
sources that I would necessarilytrust.
Not distrust, but I don't knowthem enough that I would trust
them.
So the next question I have isabout Shirley Temple, who we
knew is one of the biggest starsthat ever happened back in her
day.
And then she vanished andshowed up in politics.
(29:16):
Uh I don't think she ever ranfor anything, but she was an
ambassador and uh was meaningseen in political circles.
Tony Maietta (29:24):
No, she did.
Brad Shreve (29:25):
What happened in between?
Did she decide to did she backout on her own, or did Sollywood
say, this little girl's gottentoo old?
What happened?
Tony Maietta (29:32):
Well, it's funny because I think the question on
Wired was Shirley Temple didn'tknow she was a real person, just
thought she was a drink.
And I was like, what?
Do you think someone just nameda drink Shirley Temple?
Just hello.
Yeah.
And it's called Shirley Templebecause it doesn't have alcohol
because she was a child.
She was the incredible thingabout Shirley Temple was from
the time she was six, she wasthe top box office star in the
(29:56):
world from 35 to 38.
She was the number one boxoffice star.
From the time she was six, shewas making $2,500 per week,
which today is about $60,000 aweek.
So she was making $60,000 aweek back in the 30s.
Brad Shreve (30:13):
Not bad for a six-year-old.
Tony Maietta (30:15):
Not bad for a six-year-old.
And she made more.
I mean, that was in 35, so shewas a big star until about 38,
39.
Um, in her first film, BrightEyes, where she sings on the
good chip, Lollipop.
In 34, she won a specialjuvenile Oscars.
You know, but there's just somethere's some funny rumors about
Shirley, which I wasn't able totalk about, which I think are
hysterical.
One of the rumors was that shewasn't a child at all, but a
(30:37):
30-year-old dwarf.
I'm gonna believe that one justbecause I want to.
Because it's just like, how cana child be this engaging and
this talented?
It's the thing.
But she was talented as achild.
As she got older, it becamemore and more apparent that that
was that was a unique situationbecause she was so precocious
(30:59):
as a child.
You know, famously we talkedabout it in our Wizard of Oz
episode.
They thought about her for asecond to play Dorothy, but
there ain't no way she couldhave sung that score.
There's just no way.
She wasn't, didn't have thedepth of talent of a Judy
Garland or Deanna Durbin, otherbig child stars, or a Mickey
Rooney, I gotta tell you.
Um, so she as she got older andher appeal dwindled and she
(31:22):
left Fox, she signed with MGMbecause the idea was that maybe
she could join Judy and Mickeyin some of these let's put on
the show musicals that they werealways doing.
So she did.
She did a couple hits in the40s, uh, Bachelor and the Bobby
Soxer, uh, since she went away,but then she pretty much
disappeared in the 50s.
She had a TV show.
Um, she did that for a while,but she did.
(31:44):
She reappeared as a delegate tothe UN, appointed by Richard
Nixon, because she did run foroffice.
She ran for a seat in Congressin nine in the late 1960s, but
she lost.
And she was also a conservativeRepublican, but that meant
something different than it doesnow.
Um, so anyway, she has she wasappointed by Nixon as an
(32:07):
ambassador uh as a delegate tothe UN.
She was later an ambassador toGhana.
And you know, Ford, Gerald Fordactually considered her as a
running mate in 76.
Um, but it wasn't, you know, weknow that didn't happen.
And she then was appointed thefirst female chief protocol of
the U.S.
in 1977.
(32:28):
And that's a person who advisesthe president and the secretary
of state on diplomaticprotocol.
And she didn't serve it duringthe Reagan era because she
supported George Bush in 1980and not Ronald Reagan.
Um maybe she knew him fromHollywood.
But she was eventually, uh,when Bush became president, she
was ambassador toCzechoslovakia.
So that's a little bit aboutShirley Temple's complete resume
(32:52):
that didn't make it onto thewire thing.
It was.
It's interesting that she wentinto politics and was very
successful.
Very successful.
You asked me about LorettaYoung, too, because there was a
question about people, no, thequestion was Hollywood scandals.
Do you have any Hollywood tea?
And I think I brought up ClarkGable allegedly being a gay
hustler uh and picking up GeorgeK-Corps before he was a star,
(33:17):
which is a which is a leg, whichis a urban myth, urban legend.
Who knows if it's true?
Uh close Clark Gable wasactually an extra in Ben Hur in
25.
So who knows?
And then they end up on the setof Gone with the Wynn, but that
wasn't why George Kor was firedfrom Gone with a Wynn.
He wasn't fired because he wasgay or because Clark Gable was
nervous that they had hooked upone time.
(33:39):
He was fired because he wasn'tgiving the film the energy David
O'Selznick wanted.
But anyway, so I talked mostlyabout Loretta Young because I
think Loretta Young is a scream.
What happened to you to uh withLoretta Young?
So what happened with LorettaYoung was Loretta Young was,
first of all, I want to say shewas a top star in the pre-code
era.
And she frequently playedgangsters and good time gals.
(34:01):
And you can imagine what I meanby good time gal.
You know, there's a great, agreat movie she did called
Midnight Mary.
And so she was very, she was ahot woman.
She was a beautiful, gorgeouswoman.
She looked a lot like JoanCrawford.
Um, and she was also goodfriends with Joan Crawford.
Brad Shreve (34:15):
Um in the pre-code era, you could really be a good
time gal.
Tony Maietta (34:19):
She was, she was.
She was all like all thesegals.
They were really sexuallyambitious, sexually explorative,
explore, they explored theirsexuality.
I guess this is what I want tosay.
Sexually free women in pre-codethat all disappeared by the
time the code came down in 34.
All gone.
Brad Shreve (34:35):
Yeah, women didn't have uh orgasms after that until
the 70s.
Tony Maietta (34:39):
Exactly, exactly.
So she was able to change herimage uh to something much more
pure and much more pristinebecause she wasn't actually, she
was a in in reality, she was avery, very strict Catholic.
But she had an affair with thevery, very married Clark Gable
when they were making a filmappropriately titled Call of the
(35:01):
Wild, and she became very, verypregnant.
Now, she didn't know what shewas going to do.
She was afraid if people foundout 20th Century Fox, her
studio, they would force her tohave an abortion.
She was very, very Catholic.
There was no way she was goingto have an abortion.
Um, so what she did was sheleft Hollywood for a while, had
(35:25):
the baby, put it in a conventorphanage because she was
Catholic, came back toHollywood, waited a few more
months, then went back andpicked her up and adopted her,
brought her back to Hollywoodand raised her as her adopted
daughter for the rest of herlife.
But as I said in the interview,the problem was this was fine
(35:48):
when she was a baby, but as thelittle girl, her name was Judy,
got older, she started to lookmore and more like Clark Gable
and Loretta Young.
You just you can't.
She had the Gable ears, whichher mother had to have pinned
back when she was seven becausepeople were whispering about the
rumors.
So these rumors were all overthe place.
And then after Gable died, Judyconfronted her mother and said,
(36:08):
Finally, are these rumors true?
Am I really your biologicaldaughter with Clark Gable?
And Loretta Young famouslysaid, Yes, yes, it's true.
She probably grabbed her,clenched her fist to her chest
and said, Yes, you're a walkingmortal sin.
You are my sin.
Brad Shreve (36:27):
Can you imagine your mother saying that to you?
No, but you know what I loveabout this story?
It sounds like days of ourlives.
It does.
Well, Loretta, she was a hoot.
She's a ridiculous soap operastory.
Tony Maietta (36:41):
She was a hoot, and she was one of my favorite
stories about Loretta Young,which didn't make it on, was
Loretta Young was she got to be,I mean, for this woman who
played these good time gals andpre-coach, she became very, very
notoriously strict.
On her sets, she actually had aswear jar.
So if you dropped a curse worduh on a Loretta Young set, you
(37:02):
had to put a quarter in theswear jar.
Loretta would be there with theswear jar, shake it, and say,
put your quarter in, put yourquarter in.
But there's a very funny story.
Maybe it's apocryphal, maybeit's not.
I don't know.
I love it though.
They were on the set one day,and it was either Barbara
Stanwick or Ethel Merman orRobert Mitchum who did this.
Okay.
They let some expletive flow.
(37:25):
Loretta put out the swear jar,and whoever it was, one of these
three people, reached in theirpocket, took out a 20 and said,
Here's 20 bucks, Loretta.
Go fuck yourself.
So I can imagine either one ofthose three people doing that.
I love the fact that it waseither Ethel Merman or Robert
(37:46):
Mitchum.
Who knows?
Go fuck yourself, Loretta.
Oh God, she was a piece ofwork, Loretta Young.
She really was.
Brad Shreve (37:55):
I love those stories.
I knew nothing about LorettaYoung, and then it's
interesting.
But I could go on with morequestions.
But you mentioned you wanted totalk about something that
wasn't classic Hollywood.
Tony Maietta (38:06):
Yeah, I guess I don't know.
You know, I don't know aboutyou, but I don't God.
Do you ever go online?
Do you ever go to YouTube?
All the time.
Is it just me, or is there aproliferation of trash stories
about Sarah Jessica Parker andKim Cattral and this whole and
just like that thing?
I just, it makes me sick to mystomach.
(38:26):
It just is like, oh, come on.
Really?
You people really have nothingbetter to do than talk about
this.
Who cares?
I'm you know, whether or notand just like that was a good
show or not.
That's what I'm talking about.
It's just like, I don'tunderstand this.
People, I mean, they analyze itlike to death.
And so I was listening to thisreally, really interesting
podcast called Origins, whichwas done before and just like
(38:49):
that.
It was done right, it was aboutSex in the City, it was three
episodes.
Um, and it's a with a veryreputable host, and I can't
remember his name right now, offthe top of my head.
But anyway, he interviewed allthese people about you know what
happened with the last movie ofSex in the City and why it
didn't come together, and thewhole thing with Kim Catrol and
Cher Jessica Parker, and thefact that, you know, what made
(39:12):
it fall apart.
And he interviewed MichaelPatrick King.
And Michael Patrick King, who,if we don't, if you don't know,
didn't create Sex in the City,but he was the showrunner.
He took over from Darren Starr,who created it, and ran the
show, ran the movies, directed,wrote them.
So Michael Patrick King isbasically the force behind Sex
in the City.
(39:32):
And he's also very close withSarah Jessica Parker.
He spelled it out very clearly.
The fact that Kim Catrallwanted parody.
She wanted to be like thefriends were.
She wanted all of them to getthe same amount of money because
in her mind, Samantha was justas important to the show as
(39:53):
Sarah Jessica, as CarrieBradshaw was, as Miranda was, as
Kristen Davis, as Charlottewas.
I know she was the gay man'sfavorite.
Well, and and Kim Cotrell saidshe was the favorite of all
these people.
So she couldn't understand whyshe couldn't make as much money
as Sarah Jessica Parker.
Well, and this is what MichaelPatrick King said.
And he said, you have to go allthe way back to the beginning
(40:13):
of Sex in the City.
And you have to realize thatwhen Sex in the City first
happened, HBO was not the HBO weknow.
Okay?
It was not the home ofsuccession and of even the
sopranos.
HBO was a place where peoplewent tuned in to watch boxing.
That was it.
It was not HBO.
(40:34):
It's not TV, it's HBO.
And in fact, Cynthia Nixon saidwhen they were first starting
Sex in the City, the first groupof people really who would come
up to her and compliment herwere usually African-American
men because they were watchingHBO to watch the boxing, and
then this show would come oncalled Sex in the City.
But anyway, so this show is atthis network, which is not which
(40:57):
is known primarily for sportsunboxing.
Sarah Jessica Parker was amovie star at this point.
There's no denying that.
First Wives Club, LA Story, uhHoneymoon in Vegas.
These were big movies.
And Sarah Jessica Parkerstarred in them or was very
prominent in them.
So she was a movie star.
And back in the 90s, we don'tknow this, we don't see this
(41:18):
today because everybody goeseverywhere.
You can see Nicole Kidman in afilm, and you can go see her on
a, you know, something on AmazonPrime.
Um, they didn't do that before.
Movie stars did not come totelevision, it just didn't
happen.
Brad Shreve (41:30):
Everybody immediately knew their career
was over.
Tony Maietta (41:32):
Exactly.
Brad Shreve (41:33):
When that happened.
Tony Maietta (41:34):
So you're Sarah Jessica Parker, you're a
bankable movie star, stillmaking movies.
You get this offer to do thisshow with the word sex in the
title.
HBO also had a show on calledReal Sex, so you can imagine the
confusion there.
You get this offer to come onthis show, TV show, for this
(41:54):
network that's not really anetwork.
How do you do that?
Well, the contract that SarahJessica Parker got through her
agent was unbelievable.
Unlike any other contract hasbeen before or since.
Not only money-wise, but in thefact that it made her an
executive producer.
So they weren't like thefriends.
(42:14):
They were, you know, otherCourtney Cox had done movies,
but they were all basically,when the friends all got
together after like the third orfourth year and said we all
want to be paid the same, that'sokay.
They were all pretty much atthe same level when they
started.
That was not the case.
Sarah Jessica Parker was amovie star making a big risk to
her career putting her name onthis show.
(42:35):
And then the rest of them, KenCottrell had done Mannequin and
a couple other movies, and theother women had done really
great work, but they weren'thuge stars.
Cynthia Nixon was a theateractress, and Kristen Davis had
done Melrose plays.
So when so that's the problem,is that then the show takes off.
Sarah Jessica Parker has thiscontract that not only makes her
(42:56):
the highest paid because she isthe movie star who got this
whole thing going, but makes heran executive producer, which is
where the money really is.
And that was the problem withthe disparity in the salaries.
Kim Cottrell wanted to beequal.
She wanted them to all beequal.
Now they all got raises if theshow went on, but they were
never gonna be what SarahJessica Parker did.
(43:16):
Because if you notice, everysingle poster for Sex in the
City says Sarah Jessica Parker.
It doesn't have all four ofthem listed, it's just Sarah
Jessica Parker.
She was the star of the show.
Now here's the really ironicthing.
So when Kim Cottrell blew upSex in the City 3, the movie,
um, and it was over, and I'mlike, okay, I guess this is the
(43:38):
end of the franchise.
And then they re-revamped thescript from Sex in the City 3
and turned it into and just likethat, because in the third
movie that never got made, Bigdied.
So they made that into and justlike that.
They got parody because andjust like that was a different
entity.
(43:58):
Suddenly they were allexecutive producers and they had
that parody that Kim Catrellwanted, and she would have
gotten if she hadn't shotherself in the foot.
So there you go.
That's how life workssometimes.
I just find that fascinatingthat people want to dump on
Sarah Jessica Parker, who, fromeverything I've ever seen or
read, or people I've ever talkedto, was is just a very, very
(44:22):
good leader.
Kim Catrell even said that.
And a very, very fair, kindwoman.
I mean, I don't know her, butanytime I've ever seen her,
she's been interacted with avery, very nice person.
So that's what I wanted to sayabout that.
Done.
Brad Shreve (44:37):
The only other thing I gotta say about this is
Kim Ctrell was the better Savikwhen it came to Star Trek.
Much better.
Much better than Kirsty Allen.
Tony Maietta (44:46):
And I love Kim Cottrell.
She was brilliant as Samantha.
I missed her as Samantha likeeverybody else.
Brad Shreve (44:51):
Yeah.
Tony Maietta (44:52):
The show was not the same without Samantha.
Yes, this is not.
I think Willie Garson evensaid, God rest his soul, Willie
Garson even said that we're nottalking about, we're talking
about somebody who's a brilliantactress here.
This woman is a brilliantactress.
She deserves to get paid herworth.
However, it's never going to bethe same as the woman who
started this thing.
It's like Vivian Vance saying,I want to get as much money as
Lucy.
(45:12):
It's not going to happen.
It's not going to happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (45:16):
This was fun.
Well, we'll have to considerdoing some of these again in the
future.
Just some random Hollywoodquestions.
Tony Maietta (45:21):
Yeah, it was a nice change of pace.
Brad Shreve (45:22):
Listener, tell us what you think.
Do you like these?
Tony Maietta (45:25):
If you like Tony just being on the hot seat.
Brad Shreve (45:28):
Yes.
And if you if you don't, bekind about it.
Yes, be kind.
And you know how you can tellus, you can text us in the show
notes.
There is a button there.
All you gotta do is click thatbutton.
We can't respond directly toyou.
We can only do it on the air.
But if you click that, you willpop up on your phone and you
can just send us a text and say,hey, I think it's a great idea,
or I'd rather hear about moviesdirectly.
Tony Maietta (45:49):
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
And they can also follow orsubscribe to the podcast.
And um that would be great too.
And again, we really, reallyappreciate these, these reviews
and these ratings.
Thank you so much, everybody,for listening and for being so
kind in your in your comments.
We'll be back for our final uhair quote scary October episode.
(46:11):
We got one more to go, onefilm, which was actually a
request from a from a listener.
And I could not be morepleased.
I can't wait to talk about it.
Because I've been wanting totalk about this movie for over a
year.
Last Halloween I wanted to talkabout it.
Yeah, it's been on our agenda.
It's been on and off.
It'll be fun.
It'll be fun.
Well, Brad, in that case, Iguess there's just one thing
(46:32):
left to say.
But I've been talking andtalking and talking, so I don't
want to say it.
But I'll just say this.
Let's not say goodbye.
Let's just say au revoir.
Brad Shreve (46:42):
No, I've heard enough of you talking.
Let's say goodbye.
But anyway, what I was sayingwas Go bye, everybody.
That's all, folks.
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maeta.
Brad Shreve (00:08):
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who
likes movies.
Tony Maietta (00:11):
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.
Brad Shreve (00:18):
And of course, being the average guy, my
opinions are the ones thatmatter.
Tony Maietta (00:23):
As does your self-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood.
Brad Shreve (00:28):
Tony, you know why we are doing this episode.
Tony Maietta (00:31):
No, I don't.
I'm hiding the corner.
Do it yourself.
Brad Shreve (00:38):
Listener, Tony has hit a major milestone, and I am
so proud of him.
He doesn't mean his age either.
Tony Maietta (00:46):
Not yet.
Not yet.
Brad Shreve (00:48):
Well, you've told me a little bit about your past.
You should be proud that you'vereached it this far as well.
But shut up.
A few months ago, Tony did aspot for Wired magazine.
I guess it's a magazine.
They have a YouTube channel.
It's very popular whereexperts, experts come on and
they answer questions.
And Tony was invited on toanswer some questions.
(01:09):
The title of the show is FilmHistorian Answers Old Hollywood
Questions.
Right.
Tech Support.
The show's called Tech Support.
So Tony was a guest and justrecently hit the 1 million
views.
Tony Maietta (01:23):
What?
Get out.
What?
Is that true?
Is that true?
Like I wasn't sitting there.
Like I wasn't sitting therewatching it like a ticker tape.
Ooh, 977,001.
977,002.
I don't know.
What happened?
Suddenly, one country must havejust all listened to it at once
because it went from it waslike stalled at 994.
(01:45):
And then suddenly, the nextthing I knew, it was a million.
So yes, thank you, Brad.
Thank you for that intro.
We talked a bit about the Wiredvideo when we talked about uh
Seven Year Rich because of theMarilyn Monroe question.
And it was an incredibleexperience.
I'm so grateful.
I'm so grateful to Wiredmagazine.
Have me back.
Have me back, please.
I was so grateful to Wiredmagazine.
I'm so grateful to the peoplewho submitted the questions.
(02:07):
And it's such an interestingconcept.
You know, it is.
It's experts, and I'm honoredand humbled to be called that.
Um, but I mean, I there'schannels up there.
Who's up there?
There's people who talk aboutetiquette up there.
There's people who talk aboutpolitics up there.
I think uh I think there'sArnold's on one of them, which
(02:27):
I'm not thrilled to be on thesame podcast as Arnold, but what
are you gonna do?
Uh Arnold's on there.
Marky, I almost called himMarky Mark.
What the hell?
Hello, 1993.
Mark Wahlberg is up there doingone.
So yeah, I feel I feel inreally vaulted company in that.
Brad Shreve (02:45):
It's great.
I've seen everything fromstand-up comedians talking about
what makes things funny toscientists talking about what
happens when you die in anuclear war.
I mean, it's across the board.
Tony Maietta (02:56):
I'm somewhere in between.
Yeah, I'm somewhere in betweenMatteo Lane and Dr.
Fauci.
Yes, somewhere in there is me.
Brad Shreve (03:05):
Old Hollywood.
We'll let you decide which onehe's closest to.
Tony Maietta (03:12):
Yeah, that's very true.
Brad Shreve (03:13):
So the thing is, these episodes are usually about
a half an hour long.
Tony's is uh 25 minutes, and hehad to answer a lot of
questions.
I did.
And I know Tony.
To answer a lot of questions in25 minutes is not his thing.
Tony Maietta (03:28):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (03:30):
He clearly had to either edit himself or was that.
Tony Maietta (03:34):
I had no, I was not probably a little of both.
I did not edit, if you notice.
Uh, it was not, please, Iwasn't editing this.
They edited it.
They edited it.
If you think if I had editedit, I would have said, My God,
what's going on with your hair?
That's the first thing I wouldhave said was, can somebody get
him a comb, please?
Um, we do this without makeup,folks.
Um, so yeah, no, I didn't editit.
(03:56):
They edited, they edited it.
And it's interesting how theydid it.
They did a lot of jump cuts,which I guess is what the kids
do today on the internet on theinternet.
Yeah, jump cuts are very big onYouTube.
Lots of jump cuts.
And so they cut out somethings.
I was like, oh, that was a fun,I just had a joke there that
you cut.
Oh, you cut that joke.
But anyway, nitpicking.
So thrilled.
I loved the questions.
I loved the questions.
(04:17):
Um, and we have, you know, andso Brad and I were talking about
it, and we thought for those ofyou who didn't have a chance to
see it, or for those of you whomaybe did and want more
information, because I hell, asBrad just said, I had a lot to
say, and a lot of it was cut.
Um, so I can maybe give somemore information.
So, do you want to tell peoplewhat we're gonna do in the
structure of this episode ofGoing Hollywood?
Brad Shreve (04:41):
Well, there are certain questions that were
asked that I had a particularinterest in, and of course, you
weren't given time, just theformat of the show, to answer
them as thoroughly as I wouldhave liked.
So I want you to elaborate someof the things that you just
want to do.
Tony Maietta (04:58):
Let's let's give it a shot.
Let's see what happens.
It could get dangerous, butlet's give it a shot.
Brad Shreve (05:05):
You are the expert, so I expect you to know all of
this.
Shoot.
The first one I want to talkabout is Natalie Wood's death.
And there's a reason for this.
I I am not a fan of conspiracytheories because they're 99% of
them are ridiculous and usuallyinvolve so many people that
somebody would talk and theywould have been caught.
(05:26):
But I've heard even though Istill believe it was an
accident, I've heard enough theI the possibility of a scandal
it seems more real to me thanother things.
I still don't believe it, butit seems like a real
possibility.
Tell me more about Natalie'sdeath.
Okay.
Tony Maietta (05:46):
Well, you realize I I wasn't there, right?
I mean, I know I'm old, but umyeah, I wasn't I I wasn't there,
and what I said, what I saidthat unfortunately, or maybe did
make it, and I don't remember.
What I said was unfortunately,nobody knows what happened that
night except Natalie Wood, andshe's no longer with us.
Um but so for people who don'tknow, Natalie Wood, a wonderful,
(06:09):
iconic classic film star fromthe 50s and 60s, Rebel Without a
Cause, Gypsy, Splendor in theGrass.
Um, she died uh Thanksgivingweekend in 1981.
She was found floating inCatalina Harbor.
She had been out on the verycold, very wet Thanksgiving
weekend with her husband, RJWagner, Robert Wagner, and her
(06:33):
future and her co-star from afilm she was making.
The film was called Brainstorm,and the co-star was Christopher
Walken.
And I think it was Sundaymorning, her body was discovered
in Catalina Harbor.
Nobody knows what happened.
So Brad wants to know.
So the theory is the most themost verifiable air quotes, if
you can say, is that uh they hadbeen drinking, they'd been
(06:54):
partying, they'd been drinking,there had been some
uncomfortable conversationsbetween RJ Wagner and
Christopher Walken.
Natalie Wood went, you know,y'all, I'm going to bed,
whatever.
And she went downstairs, wentdown below.
I'm sorry, nautical terms.
She went below to their cabin,and she was getting dressed to
go to bed in her and she was inher nightgown, and there was a
(07:15):
dinghy on the side attached tothe side of the boat, which it
was a very, as I said, it was astormy, cold weekend.
It kept the waves kept bangingthe dinghy against the boat, and
she was getting frustrated.
So the theory is that she puther parka on, that was a
downfilled parka, went outsidein her nightgown, her socks and
her parka to retie the dinghy,and slipped on the step going
(07:40):
down the dinghy, hit her head,and fell in the ocean.
And she had been drinking.
Uh the autopsy clearly showedthat she had a very high blood
alcohol content.
Um, but also what's really sadis that you know her parka was
downfilled.
So it started to absorb waterand was pulling her down, which
(08:02):
is what's really sad.
So apparently, some there'ssome speculation.
People heard someone, a womanyelling, whatever.
All they know is the nextRobert Walker and Robert, Robert
Wagner and Christopher Walkenwent down and she was nowhere to
be found.
And you know, they called theCoast Guard and she was found
the next morning.
So what you're saying is thatyou've heard speculation, what,
(08:22):
that there was foul playinvolved?
Brad Shreve (08:24):
Yes, I heard there was foul play involved.
The first one I've heard isthat uh supposedly Christopher
Walken and Natalie were having afling, and Robert found out
about it and took matters in hisown hands.
The other, and I can't rememberthe the details that they've
given to try and explain why ithappened, were that Wagner and
(08:47):
Walken together plannedsomething.
Wow.
Tony Maietta (08:52):
There are some theories.
Yes, well, you know, there's alot of speculation.
There's a lot of speculation.
There was actually a book, umuh Dennis Deverne, who the he
wasn't the captain.
I don't know what it is, soexcuse me, I don't know the
exact nautical term for whatDennis DeVerne was.
I well, I want to say firstmate, but I don't think that's
right.
Anyway, he allegedly he's theone with these people with
(09:12):
conspiracy theories because hewas actually he was there that
night.
Um, and he wrote a book aboutwhat happened.
Uh, he doesn't really tellanything about what happened, he
just gives his suspicions.
Natalie Wood's sister, Lana, isalso a great purveyor of these
rumors.
Um, the one, yes, uh the thingabout Walken and Wood is that
(09:34):
Natalie was just getting backinto her film career.
She'd taken some time off tohave her family and she was
coming back.
She was definitely a comebackmode.
And she was very, very Walkenwas a new generation of actor.
And so I think RJ was, therewas arguments, and RJ was
jealous of Natalie'srelationship with Walken, but it
was a professional thing.
And RJ Wagner admits tobreaking a bottle that night up
(09:55):
when they were up in the cabinand saying, you know, are you
fucking my wife, or somethinglike that?
And I want to point out there'sa wonderful documentary on HBO
that Natalie Wood's daughtermade, um, called What Remains
Behind, I think that's the nameof it, and goes into this.
Um, where Robert Wagnerconfesses, yes, there were
words.
But the idea that there wassome kind of illicit
(10:19):
relationship, no.
I don't, I don't think thatholds water.
I certainly don't believe thatthe two of them got together.
Natalie, RJ Wagner, they wereremarried, you know.
They fell in love when theywere very young, they had
difficulties, they split up, andthen they found their way back
together.
And I think what's so sad aboutit, regardless of what really
happened, the reason thatdoesn't seem right to me is
(10:39):
because I because why?
Why would RJ Wagner do this?
Natalie was the love of hislife.
They came back together afterbeing separated for so long.
The man was clearly devastated.
He had two young daughters.
I just I don't believe that.
I believe it was a tragicaccident.
But again, the only person whoreally knows what happened is no
(10:59):
longer with us because it wasNatalie Wood.
Just a very sad, sad ending.
The fact was also very sad isthat that becomes the focus of
Natalie Wood's life, not theincredible body of work she
left.
Sex in the Single Girl, Gypsy,uh, Bob Carroll and Ted Nalis.
You know, I mean, these thiswonderful, not even to mention
Rebel Without a Cause.
That becomes the focus, is howshe died, not how she lived.
(11:22):
I prefer to think how shelived.
Brad Shreve (11:24):
That's the way I feel about it.
Let's leave it at that andthink about the great things she
did in her life.
Tony Maietta (11:29):
Yes.
The documentary is called WhatRemains Behind, Natasha, Gregs,
and Wagner's.
Beautiful, beautiful tribute toher mother.
There's also a book.
Brad Shreve (11:36):
So next question.
Next question from theinternet.
The next question is aboutElizabeth Taylor.
And this is one I probablyshould hang my head in shame
because you talk quite a bit.
People are asking aboutElizabeth Taylor, and you talk
about some of the great moviesshe uh it w it was in and what a
megastar she was.
And you know, I've seen verylittle of Elizabeth Taylor, and
(11:57):
to say I'm not a huge fan, I'mgonna say that, but it's not
very nice because I only knewher in her later years when she
wasn't.
Tony Maietta (12:04):
You want to know about Elizabeth Taylor's films?
You want to know about hercareer?
Brad Shreve (12:09):
I don't know a whole lot about Elizabeth Taylor
other than the good works thatshe did.
I know very little about herfilm career.
And off the top of my head, Ican't think of anything that I I
really was astounded by.
So I would like you to tell me,if I'm going to gain an
appreciation for ElizabethTaylor, what should I watch?
Oh, okay.
Tony Maietta (12:29):
Well, I think that that question from the internet
that was funny because I thinkthe question was my roommate
told me he didn't know whoElizabeth Taylor was, and I
almost had a stroke.
And my my response was, I had astroke reading that question.
But they cut that, which Ithought was very funny.
Um so which film?
Well, you know what?
This is a long movie career.
I mean, Elizabeth Taylor was infilms from the time when she
(12:51):
was a child.
National Velvet to uh I thinkshe was in the Flintstones.
I mean, that's a long moviecareer.
National Velvet, I think, is46, 47.
Don't hate me if I'm notexactly right with that.
Um, but she was a young girl.
So, films to watch.
I mean, it depends on whatstage of Elizabeth Taylor you
want to see.
For me, number one, front andcenter is her Oscar-winning
(13:14):
performance in Who's Afraid ofVirginia Wolf?
To me, I think that she givesone of the greatest film
performances of a theater pieceever.
Ever.
Now, that, you know, I'm surepeople will have debate about
that, but Who's Afraid ofVirginia Wolf is a very talky,
very stagy play.
And Mike Nichols, who directedit, managed to make it a very
(13:36):
cinematic film, which is not aneasy thing to do.
We've talked about movies likethat.
Hello, we just talked about thebad seed and how it's just
basically a filmed play.
Um, and Nichols was able to dothings, but primarily what he
was able to do was get cinematicperformances out of these
actors.
Every one of them had worked ontheater except Elizabeth
(13:59):
Taylor.
And Elizabeth Taylor gives sucha nuanced spectrum of emotions
in this film.
I would, oh my god, it's it'sheartbreaking.
I was we should talk aboutwho's afraid of Virginia Wolf
sometime.
Because she goes toe toe toe totoe with Richard Burton and she
does not hold back.
She is loud, she is abrasive,she is ballsy, but she's also in
(14:22):
moments when it counts, she hasa wonderful monologue at the
screen door, very quiet, veryreal.
And I hardly recommend that.
If you want to see a reallygreat Elizabeth Taylor
pre-Richard Burton film, Ihighly recommend Suddenly Last
Summer.
In fact, I think I was gonnasuggest it as one of our air
quote scary movies this monthbecause this is you know,
(14:44):
because it's a very it's anotoriously campy.
Have you ever seen SuddenlyLast Summer with uh uh Catherine
Hepburn, Montgomery Clift, andElizabeth Taylor based on the
Tennessee Williams play?
No.
Brad Shreve (14:56):
Um based on the cast, I'm almost certain I have
not.
Tony Maietta (14:58):
It's a brilliant film.
Uh, I'm not gonna go too muchon the plot because I hope we
talk about it sometime.
But she's wonderful in it.
She is raw.
She is she basically plays awoman who's fighting her aunt
not to force a lobotomy on her.
Tennessee Williams.
Um, yeah, it's it's starling.
She has a wonderful scene,breakdown scene.
(15:20):
She's wonderful in it.
Uh, same thing with Cat on theHot Ten Roof, which is right
before Suddenly Last Summer,another Tennessee Williams play.
Um, and I would reallyrecommend for people, and don't
laugh at me, I would recommendCleopatra.
Cleopatra, despite itsreputation, is a wonderful film.
Now, yes, it's way too long,and there's an actually an
(15:41):
incredible, there's a lot ofincredible stories about
Cleopatra, which I we don't havetime to go into.
But you have to take your mindout of the fact that you've
heard this is a terrible bomb,this was the biggest bomb in the
in the world.
No, it eventually made aprofit.
Now, it changed Hollywood, andwe're not going to go into that,
but she in Cleopatra, directedby Joseph Mankowitz, Joseph L.
(16:02):
Mankowitz, who also directedher and suddenly last summer,
gets a wonderful performancefrom her.
And she fell in love withRichard Burton during the making
of it and caused this hugescandal, La Scandale, condemned
by the Vatican.
Um, and you see that, you seethe tenderness in her when she's
with Richard Burton.
You she also has a wonderfulrelationship with Rex Harrison
(16:23):
as Julius Caesar.
Highly recommend it.
So I think those would bethree.
I would definitely remindVirginia Wolf, Suddenly Last
Summer, if you want to add tothat, Cat on the Hutton Roof,
certainly, if not just to seePaul Newman in his shirtless
glory.
Um and then if you have acouple weeks, Cleopatra.
That's the ones I wouldrecommend.
Brad Shreve (16:46):
And I do want to ask about one particular movie,
but first I want to commentabout Cleopatra.
I I know I watched it ages ago,but you know, usually a box
office bomb is a reflection onthe quality of the film, but not
always.
There have been some greatfilms that were bombs, it's just
a matter of circumstance.
So I'm gonna take your wordthat maybe this was the
situation with Cleopatra.
I do want to ask about Giant,and uh there's a particular
(17:09):
reason and I am going off trackhere because this isn't what you
discussed.
Only because I remember itbeing a really good film, but it
was ages ago, and now I'mwondering if it's just because I
like the cast.
Tony Maietta (17:19):
Well, I gotta warn you.
First of all, I want to sayCleopatra was not a bomb.
That's Cleopatra was thehighest-grossing movie of 1963.
It was not a bomb.
Oh, it made more money than anyother movie in 1963, but it
also cost more than any othermovie in film history.
So it took a while to make aprofit, but it eventually did,
and it continues to.
So the myth about Cleopatrabeing this huge bomb is a myth.
(17:42):
It's also a myth that itbankrupt 20th Century Fox.
It did not bankrupt 20thCentury Fox.
Um, it didn't cause the studioto sell their backlot.
That was happening long beforeCleopatra was ever in
production.
So those are just myths aboutit.
Um, Giant.
Giant is a great film, but I'mnot, I don't want you to watch
it because it was directed byGeorge Stevens.
(18:04):
And we all know how Brad feelsif you've listened to this
podcast, how Brad feels aboutGeorge Stevens.
She's good and she's not it'snot a movie I would recommend
for Cleop to see ElizabethTaylor.
It's a movie I'd recommend ifyou want to see an epic, huge
giant, what you know, what wasemblematic of the mid-50s, and
(18:24):
and Rock Hudson gives awonderful performance, but I
wouldn't recommend it forElizabeth Taylor.
James Dean also, his last film.
Uh he died when they were stillfilming.
So if you want to see an epic,a grand epic before the the
huge, huge epics like Cleopatra,then I would absolutely
recommend Giant.
It's a wonderful film, but it'sGeorge Stevens.
Just I'm just saying that.
Brad Shreve (18:46):
Well, I'm amazed I said I remember liking it.
Oh, right.
Tony Maietta (18:49):
Maybe we watched the wrong George Stevens movies.
Brad Shreve (18:52):
Well, I have some more questions, but first, you
had some things you wanted tosay about some of our listeners.
Tony Maietta (18:56):
Oh my god, we got some reviews.
That yeah, let's take a littlebreak because there's there's
reviews that that okay.
I'm sorry, listeners, audience,I didn't realize that you could
leave reviews on Spotify.
I'm new to this podcastingthing.
It's so funny.
And I just like was all of asudden I was like, oh my god,
(19:18):
there's reviews from Spotify.
And I just want to say, um, thething about Spotify is that you
you have to go through thespecific specific episode for
the review.
So I just want to say hi toDaniel Lancaster.
This is um, he's left us otherreviews before.
We've talked about him before.
You you know who I'm talkingabout here, Brad, right?
He's he's from Switzerland,which uh love you already that
(19:39):
you're from Switzerland.
Um reserve me a room.
If I can't yeah, just reserveme a room.
Um and he uh he he was very hewas very, very, very flattering,
Brad, about our two GoldenGirls episodes.
And he said it made him he andhis partner want to re-watch
this great show again because itwas so advanced and they spoke
(20:00):
about so many current topics.
So we are so happy that you'relistening, Daniel.
In Switzerland, which isamazing.
And Gestad?
Is it Gestad, maybe?
Um, love it.
Zurich.
Oh, is it Zurich?
It's Zurich.
I'm sorry.
Okay, well, Brad knows.
Zurich.
So thank you.
And then Sam Wise, and I'mgonna read Sam's.
Uh Sam Wise said, Tony, you'rereally just going to drop the
(20:21):
fact that you were on an episodeof Golden Girls and not fully
flesh out that experience.
Question mark, question mark,question mark.
It must have been the ManjaCavallo curse.
And I'm pretty sure when I justwent back and watched that one,
I spotted you in the backgroundof a few scenes.
Wow.
Daniel, yes, it was the ManjaCavallo curse makes a lousy
wedding present.
Season five.
You have good eyes because Idon't even recognize myself when
(20:44):
I look at the Manja Cavallocurse.
Because wow, I'm just uh22-year-old, fresh face, huge
hair.
Oh, I miss the 90s.
Um, it was a wonderfulexperience.
I didn't want the Golden Girlsepisodes to be about me and shut
up, Brad.
I didn't want them to be aboutme and my experience on Golden
Girls.
I just mentioned that I was onGolden Girls to give the
(21:06):
context, primarily about the B.
Arthur Betty White thing, andjust to say, look, I was there,
I was on the set, I saw nothingof these rumors that these women
didn't like each other.
And I also think it's prettycool that I was on Golden Girls.
I mean, it's something that I'mvery proud of.
So yeah, it was a lot of fun.
It was an incredibleexperience.
I was there almost the entireweek.
So I got to talk to Betty Whiteabout the Mary Tyler Moore
(21:27):
show.
She said it's as Betty Whitewas, she was so gracious, so
kind.
Um, she said it was just likeworking on the Golden Girls, the
kind of love on the set.
And there was one very funnything, though, and this is the
last thing I'm gonna say aboutit, because this really is about
me, and I don't like that.
Um, so we're sitting at thewe're sitting at the table, this
the one of the scenes takesplace at a wedding reception,
(21:48):
and it was a very long, it wasthe last day, and it was a very,
very long shoot, as you canimagine.
There are a lot of people.
And we're sitting there, and uhRue turns to me and the girl
who was playing my date at thewedding, and she says, Still
want to be in show business?
It's tedious, isn't it?
Oh wait, wait, no, no, that waswrong, that's wrong.
I got that backwards, I got thebackwards, I got the backwards.
(22:09):
Wait a minute.
We're sitting there, I'm sorry,memory, we're sitting there,
and B.
Arthur turns to me and the girlI was sitting with and says,
Still want to be in showbusiness.
And then Rue said, It'stedious, isn't it?
And I just remember her leg wascrossed and her leg was
bouncing up and down with herhigh heel.
(22:30):
It was just it was arheumaclantic thing.
Anyway, that's it.
That's my gold girlsexperience.
Thanks.
Brad Shreve (22:35):
And I have a couple to add to this.
Uh, one is Nicole Maddox, andwe have a big apology to give
Nicole because she has not justcommented, she's commented
numerous times.
And uh I'm gonna go back to hervery first one that I see.
And she said, I just want topop in and say, I love this
podcast.
I'm a big classic movie loverand enjoy the back and forth
(22:56):
commentary.
And uh, she makes somerecommendations and then says,
keep up the great storytelling,gentlemen.
Then one of her more recentones is from I Remember Mama.
And I'm only bringing this oneup because she put, love the
show, gentlemen.
Tony, let's give Brad one morechance with George.
Which is I which is funnybecause that leads us into the
(23:19):
giant, and I didn't rememberhaving seen this, so that was
totally plan.
Yeah, there you go.
Yes.
Tony Maietta (23:27):
He liked a George Stevens movie, even though he
doesn't remember it.
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (23:31):
Yes.
So as I've said before, I don'twant to make promises, but this
one I'm gonna put on the agendasomewhere.
So coming up, we will haveanother one.
And she's made some commentssince then as well.
She's great, thank you.
She's great.
Yes.
The other person uh wasJeffnician.
I love your name, Jeffnician.
And uh he commented that heloved they shoot horses, don't
(23:53):
they?
And just wanted to sayexcellent pie.
Oh, that's nice.
Thank you to all of you.
Tony Maietta (23:57):
Thank you, thank you.
You know, we just I've say amillion times, we appreciate it
so much, and we're gonnacontinue to give updates with
these reviews because I thinkit's important because we we
appreciate it so much.
We want to say thank you.
You know, we we love weappreciate we want to give the
love back, you know, through thethrough the Ethernet or
whatever the hell this is.
So please give me a break.
(24:18):
This is how we get paid.
Exactly, exactly.
We're the we're rich in thiskind of thing.
So thank you so much.
Brad Shreve (24:26):
So back to some more questions.
Closeted stars that we now knowwere gay.
I'd like to know a little bitmore about them.
Not just rumored that we can gothere.
I mean, I've heard rumors and II just can't believe them that
Sarah Ian McKellen is gay.
Well, you know, I don't likeyou know I don't like dealing in
rumors.
So when you answer thisquestion, I wanted you to focus
(24:47):
on the people most people thatare probably not aware that
we're closeted gay.
If there are any left.
Tony Maietta (24:56):
Well, I mean Well, that's the thing.
I mean, who has a secretanymore?
Up so many people people aredead.
Because I don't like, you know,I I don't like trafficking and
speculation.
Um I I can't really say unlessit's common knowledge now.
How would I how would I knowthat?
I wasn't there.
I know.
Same thing with Natalie Woodsthe day that the night Natalie
(25:16):
Wood died.
Um I've I could maybe like fardid I mention Farley Granger?
I think I mentioned him onWard.
Farley Granger, who wrote abook called Include Me Out, was
pretty open though during theGolden Age, which was which was
very, very scary and veryunusual.
For Farley Granger's he was agorgeous man.
(25:37):
He I was actually in arelationship with Arthur
Lawrence, who we talked aboutduring Rope.
He and Arthur Lorentz, orLawrence, whichever you want,
um, were in a relationship, andI think during the time they
were making rope, too.
So uh Tab Hunter, uh who cameout later, he wrote a wonderful
book called Tab HunterConfidential.
(26:00):
And he and Rock Hudson, who youmight have heard of, once or
twice.
We were both represented by thenotorious Henry Wilson.
Henry Wilson was pretty much uhthe man who invented these
people.
He invented a bunch of these.
Um John Saxon was also one ofhis clients.
RJ Wagner was one of hisclients.
(26:22):
He represented these beautifulboys back in the 50s.
And he actually sold Tab Hunterwas before Rock, and he
actually sold out Tab toConfidential Magazine to protect
Rock.
Confidential had a story aboutTab attending an all-male party,
and they were going to publishit.
And then they had one aboutRock.
Well, Rock was a bigger boxoffice star.
(26:43):
So Wilson said, if I give youthis on Tab, will you forget
about Rock?
And that's exactly whathappened.
So, and then of course we haveMontgomery Clift, who was gay at
least bisexual, but pretty waspretty much standard gay because
he also had a relationship withwomen.
Um, but he was had arelationship with Roddy.
Maybe Roddy's somebody that youdon't know offhand that Roddy
(27:06):
McDowell was was gay.
We don't really think of Roddythat because Roddy wasn't a sex
symbol.
I don't think we necessarilythink of Roddy in sexual terms,
although he was adorable.
Um and Roddy was definitely inlove with Montgomery Clift.
Definitely.
Uh they they had a relationshipof some kind.
So uh there's Roddy as well.
Um, Jack Larson, who playedJimmy Olson on the Superman
(27:27):
series, uh, was also a dearfriend of Montgomery Cliff's and
also in that kind of gay sewingcircle.
There's one I didn't know.
Um, and you know, lesbians,Garbo, Dietrich, it's hard
because as I said before, likewith Cary Grant, it's hard for
us to take our 21st centuryideals of what sexuality is and
put them on 20th century,mid-20th century, because it was
(27:50):
just different.
You know, people weren'tnecessarily gay, lined,
straight, kind of like the kidsare now.
You know, we said this before.
They got the right idea.
They're just whatever attractsthem is where they go.
So you had people like Garbowho had relationships with men
and relationships with women.
Same thing with Dietrich.
Mercedes DeCosta, good friendof Garbo's, same thing.
Although I think she wasprimarily lesbian.
(28:12):
And of course, Hepburn.
Hepburn had relationships withmen, Hepburn had relationships
with women.
Hepburn was just Hepburn.
Same thing in Cary Grant.
Cary Grant was mostlyinterested in Cary Grant.
So if it was going to be arelationship with a man that
would push him forward when hewas in the theater when he was
Archie Leach, probably had a lotof relationships with men.
Ori Kelly, we talked aboutthat, the costume designer.
(28:35):
Um, but then when he got toHollywood into a much more
conservative atmosphere and amuch more conservative
environment, and he became CaryGrant, you know, he had to then
start.
He was then with women.
He was married five times.
Um, did he have a relationshipwith Randolph Scott?
Maybe, maybe not.
Who knows?
I wasn't there.
So those are some of the peopleI can think of.
Brad Shreve (28:55):
And there are a lot of articles online about him
and Randolph Scott, and but noneof them seem like very um
sources that I would necessarilytrust.
Not distrust, but I don't knowthem enough that I would trust
them.
So the next question I have isabout Shirley Temple, who we
knew is one of the biggest starsthat ever happened back in her
day.
And then she vanished andshowed up in politics.
(29:16):
Uh I don't think she ever ranfor anything, but she was an
ambassador and uh was meaningseen in political circles.
Tony Maietta (29:24):
No, she did.
Brad Shreve (29:25):
What happened in between?
Did she decide to did she backout on her own, or did Sollywood
say, this little girl's gottentoo old?
What happened?
Tony Maietta (29:32):
Well, it's funny because I think the question on
Wired was Shirley Temple didn'tknow she was a real person, just
thought she was a drink.
And I was like, what?
Do you think someone just nameda drink Shirley Temple?
Just hello.
Yeah.
And it's called Shirley Templebecause it doesn't have alcohol
because she was a child.
She was the incredible thingabout Shirley Temple was from
the time she was six, she wasthe top box office star in the
(29:56):
world from 35 to 38.
She was the number one boxoffice star.
From the time she was six, shewas making $2,500 per week,
which today is about $60,000 aweek.
So she was making $60,000 aweek back in the 30s.
Brad Shreve (30:13):
Not bad for a six-year-old.
Tony Maietta (30:15):
Not bad for a six-year-old.
And she made more.
I mean, that was in 35, so shewas a big star until about 38,
39.
Um, in her first film, BrightEyes, where she sings on the
good chip, Lollipop.
In 34, she won a specialjuvenile Oscars.
You know, but there's just somethere's some funny rumors about
Shirley, which I wasn't able totalk about, which I think are
hysterical.
One of the rumors was that shewasn't a child at all, but a
(30:37):
30-year-old dwarf.
I'm gonna believe that one justbecause I want to.
Because it's just like, how cana child be this engaging and
this talented?
It's the thing.
But she was talented as achild.
As she got older, it becamemore and more apparent that that
was that was a unique situationbecause she was so precocious
(30:59):
as a child.
You know, famously we talkedabout it in our Wizard of Oz
episode.
They thought about her for asecond to play Dorothy, but
there ain't no way she couldhave sung that score.
There's just no way.
She wasn't, didn't have thedepth of talent of a Judy
Garland or Deanna Durbin, otherbig child stars, or a Mickey
Rooney, I gotta tell you.
Um, so she as she got older andher appeal dwindled and she
(31:22):
left Fox, she signed with MGMbecause the idea was that maybe
she could join Judy and Mickeyin some of these let's put on
the show musicals that they werealways doing.
So she did.
She did a couple hits in the40s, uh, Bachelor and the Bobby
Soxer, uh, since she went away,but then she pretty much
disappeared in the 50s.
She had a TV show.
Um, she did that for a while,but she did.
(31:44):
She reappeared as a delegate tothe UN, appointed by Richard
Nixon, because she did run foroffice.
She ran for a seat in Congressin nine in the late 1960s, but
she lost.
And she was also a conservativeRepublican, but that meant
something different than it doesnow.
Um, so anyway, she has she wasappointed by Nixon as an
(32:07):
ambassador uh as a delegate tothe UN.
She was later an ambassador toGhana.
And you know, Ford, Gerald Fordactually considered her as a
running mate in 76.
Um, but it wasn't, you know, weknow that didn't happen.
And she then was appointed thefirst female chief protocol of
the U.S.
in 1977.
(32:28):
And that's a person who advisesthe president and the secretary
of state on diplomaticprotocol.
And she didn't serve it duringthe Reagan era because she
supported George Bush in 1980and not Ronald Reagan.
Um maybe she knew him fromHollywood.
But she was eventually, uh,when Bush became president, she
was ambassador toCzechoslovakia.
So that's a little bit aboutShirley Temple's complete resume
(32:52):
that didn't make it onto thewire thing.
It was.
It's interesting that she wentinto politics and was very
successful.
Very successful.
You asked me about LorettaYoung, too, because there was a
question about people, no, thequestion was Hollywood scandals.
Do you have any Hollywood tea?
And I think I brought up ClarkGable allegedly being a gay
hustler uh and picking up GeorgeK-Corps before he was a star,
(33:17):
which is a which is a leg, whichis a urban myth, urban legend.
Who knows if it's true?
Uh close Clark Gable wasactually an extra in Ben Hur in
25.
So who knows?
And then they end up on the setof Gone with the Wynn, but that
wasn't why George Kor was firedfrom Gone with a Wynn.
He wasn't fired because he wasgay or because Clark Gable was
nervous that they had hooked upone time.
(33:39):
He was fired because he wasn'tgiving the film the energy David
O'Selznick wanted.
But anyway, so I talked mostlyabout Loretta Young because I
think Loretta Young is a scream.
What happened to you to uh withLoretta Young?
So what happened with LorettaYoung was Loretta Young was,
first of all, I want to say shewas a top star in the pre-code
era.
And she frequently playedgangsters and good time gals.
(34:01):
And you can imagine what I meanby good time gal.
You know, there's a great, agreat movie she did called
Midnight Mary.
And so she was very, she was ahot woman.
She was a beautiful, gorgeouswoman.
She looked a lot like JoanCrawford.
Um, and she was also goodfriends with Joan Crawford.
Brad Shreve (34:15):
Um in the pre-code era, you could really be a good
time gal.
Tony Maietta (34:19):
She was, she was.
She was all like all thesegals.
They were really sexuallyambitious, sexually explorative,
explore, they explored theirsexuality.
I guess this is what I want tosay.
Sexually free women in pre-codethat all disappeared by the
time the code came down in 34.
All gone.
Brad Shreve (34:35):
Yeah, women didn't have uh orgasms after that until
the 70s.
Tony Maietta (34:39):
Exactly, exactly.
So she was able to change herimage uh to something much more
pure and much more pristinebecause she wasn't actually, she
was a in in reality, she was avery, very strict Catholic.
But she had an affair with thevery, very married Clark Gable
when they were making a filmappropriately titled Call of the
(35:01):
Wild, and she became very, verypregnant.
Now, she didn't know what shewas going to do.
She was afraid if people foundout 20th Century Fox, her
studio, they would force her tohave an abortion.
She was very, very Catholic.
There was no way she was goingto have an abortion.
Um, so what she did was sheleft Hollywood for a while, had
(35:25):
the baby, put it in a conventorphanage because she was
Catholic, came back toHollywood, waited a few more
months, then went back andpicked her up and adopted her,
brought her back to Hollywoodand raised her as her adopted
daughter for the rest of herlife.
But as I said in the interview,the problem was this was fine
(35:48):
when she was a baby, but as thelittle girl, her name was Judy,
got older, she started to lookmore and more like Clark Gable
and Loretta Young.
You just you can't.
She had the Gable ears, whichher mother had to have pinned
back when she was seven becausepeople were whispering about the
rumors.
So these rumors were all overthe place.
And then after Gable died, Judyconfronted her mother and said,
(36:08):
Finally, are these rumors true?
Am I really your biologicaldaughter with Clark Gable?
And Loretta Young famouslysaid, Yes, yes, it's true.
She probably grabbed her,clenched her fist to her chest
and said, Yes, you're a walkingmortal sin.
You are my sin.
Brad Shreve (36:27):
Can you imagine your mother saying that to you?
No, but you know what I loveabout this story?
It sounds like days of ourlives.
It does.
Well, Loretta, she was a hoot.
She's a ridiculous soap operastory.
Tony Maietta (36:41):
She was a hoot, and she was one of my favorite
stories about Loretta Young,which didn't make it on, was
Loretta Young was she got to be,I mean, for this woman who
played these good time gals andpre-coach, she became very, very
notoriously strict.
On her sets, she actually had aswear jar.
So if you dropped a curse worduh on a Loretta Young set, you
(37:02):
had to put a quarter in theswear jar.
Loretta would be there with theswear jar, shake it, and say,
put your quarter in, put yourquarter in.
But there's a very funny story.
Maybe it's apocryphal, maybeit's not.
I don't know.
I love it though.
They were on the set one day,and it was either Barbara
Stanwick or Ethel Merman orRobert Mitchum who did this.
Okay.
They let some expletive flow.
(37:25):
Loretta put out the swear jar,and whoever it was, one of these
three people, reached in theirpocket, took out a 20 and said,
Here's 20 bucks, Loretta.
Go fuck yourself.
So I can imagine either one ofthose three people doing that.
I love the fact that it waseither Ethel Merman or Robert
(37:46):
Mitchum.
Who knows?
Go fuck yourself, Loretta.
Oh God, she was a piece ofwork, Loretta Young.
She really was.
Brad Shreve (37:55):
I love those stories.
I knew nothing about LorettaYoung, and then it's
interesting.
But I could go on with morequestions.
But you mentioned you wanted totalk about something that
wasn't classic Hollywood.
Tony Maietta (38:06):
Yeah, I guess I don't know.
You know, I don't know aboutyou, but I don't God.
Do you ever go online?
Do you ever go to YouTube?
All the time.
Is it just me, or is there aproliferation of trash stories
about Sarah Jessica Parker andKim Cattral and this whole and
just like that thing?
I just, it makes me sick to mystomach.
(38:26):
It just is like, oh, come on.
Really?
You people really have nothingbetter to do than talk about
this.
Who cares?
I'm you know, whether or notand just like that was a good
show or not.
That's what I'm talking about.
It's just like, I don'tunderstand this.
People, I mean, they analyze itlike to death.
And so I was listening to thisreally, really interesting
podcast called Origins, whichwas done before and just like
(38:49):
that.
It was done right, it was aboutSex in the City, it was three
episodes.
Um, and it's a with a veryreputable host, and I can't
remember his name right now, offthe top of my head.
But anyway, he interviewed allthese people about you know what
happened with the last movie ofSex in the City and why it
didn't come together, and thewhole thing with Kim Catrol and
Cher Jessica Parker, and thefact that, you know, what made
(39:12):
it fall apart.
And he interviewed MichaelPatrick King.
And Michael Patrick King, who,if we don't, if you don't know,
didn't create Sex in the City,but he was the showrunner.
He took over from Darren Starr,who created it, and ran the
show, ran the movies, directed,wrote them.
So Michael Patrick King isbasically the force behind Sex
in the City.
(39:32):
And he's also very close withSarah Jessica Parker.
He spelled it out very clearly.
The fact that Kim Catrallwanted parody.
She wanted to be like thefriends were.
She wanted all of them to getthe same amount of money because
in her mind, Samantha was justas important to the show as
(39:53):
Sarah Jessica, as CarrieBradshaw was, as Miranda was, as
Kristen Davis, as Charlottewas.
I know she was the gay man'sfavorite.
Well, and and Kim Cotrell saidshe was the favorite of all
these people.
So she couldn't understand whyshe couldn't make as much money
as Sarah Jessica Parker.
Well, and this is what MichaelPatrick King said.
And he said, you have to go allthe way back to the beginning
(40:13):
of Sex in the City.
And you have to realize thatwhen Sex in the City first
happened, HBO was not the HBO weknow.
Okay?
It was not the home ofsuccession and of even the
sopranos.
HBO was a place where peoplewent tuned in to watch boxing.
That was it.
It was not HBO.
(40:34):
It's not TV, it's HBO.
And in fact, Cynthia Nixon saidwhen they were first starting
Sex in the City, the first groupof people really who would come
up to her and compliment herwere usually African-American
men because they were watchingHBO to watch the boxing, and
then this show would come oncalled Sex in the City.
But anyway, so this show is atthis network, which is not which
(40:57):
is known primarily for sportsunboxing.
Sarah Jessica Parker was amovie star at this point.
There's no denying that.
First Wives Club, LA Story, uhHoneymoon in Vegas.
These were big movies.
And Sarah Jessica Parkerstarred in them or was very
prominent in them.
So she was a movie star.
And back in the 90s, we don'tknow this, we don't see this
(41:18):
today because everybody goeseverywhere.
You can see Nicole Kidman in afilm, and you can go see her on
a, you know, something on AmazonPrime.
Um, they didn't do that before.
Movie stars did not come totelevision, it just didn't
happen.
Brad Shreve (41:30):
Everybody immediately knew their career
was over.
Tony Maietta (41:32):
Exactly.
Brad Shreve (41:33):
When that happened.
Tony Maietta (41:34):
So you're Sarah Jessica Parker, you're a
bankable movie star, stillmaking movies.
You get this offer to do thisshow with the word sex in the
title.
HBO also had a show on calledReal Sex, so you can imagine the
confusion there.
You get this offer to come onthis show, TV show, for this
(41:54):
network that's not really anetwork.
How do you do that?
Well, the contract that SarahJessica Parker got through her
agent was unbelievable.
Unlike any other contract hasbeen before or since.
Not only money-wise, but in thefact that it made her an
executive producer.
So they weren't like thefriends.
(42:14):
They were, you know, otherCourtney Cox had done movies,
but they were all basically,when the friends all got
together after like the third orfourth year and said we all
want to be paid the same, that'sokay.
They were all pretty much atthe same level when they
started.
That was not the case.
Sarah Jessica Parker was amovie star making a big risk to
her career putting her name onthis show.
(42:35):
And then the rest of them, KenCottrell had done Mannequin and
a couple other movies, and theother women had done really
great work, but they weren'thuge stars.
Cynthia Nixon was a theateractress, and Kristen Davis had
done Melrose plays.
So when so that's the problem,is that then the show takes off.
Sarah Jessica Parker has thiscontract that not only makes her
(42:56):
the highest paid because she isthe movie star who got this
whole thing going, but makes heran executive producer, which is
where the money really is.
And that was the problem withthe disparity in the salaries.
Kim Cottrell wanted to beequal.
She wanted them to all beequal.
Now they all got raises if theshow went on, but they were
never gonna be what SarahJessica Parker did.
(43:16):
Because if you notice, everysingle poster for Sex in the
City says Sarah Jessica Parker.
It doesn't have all four ofthem listed, it's just Sarah
Jessica Parker.
She was the star of the show.
Now here's the really ironicthing.
So when Kim Cottrell blew upSex in the City 3, the movie,
um, and it was over, and I'mlike, okay, I guess this is the
(43:38):
end of the franchise.
And then they re-revamped thescript from Sex in the City 3
and turned it into and just likethat, because in the third
movie that never got made, Bigdied.
So they made that into and justlike that.
They got parody because andjust like that was a different
entity.
(43:58):
Suddenly they were allexecutive producers and they had
that parody that Kim Catrellwanted, and she would have
gotten if she hadn't shotherself in the foot.
So there you go.
That's how life workssometimes.
I just find that fascinatingthat people want to dump on
Sarah Jessica Parker, who, fromeverything I've ever seen or
read, or people I've ever talkedto, was is just a very, very
(44:22):
good leader.
Kim Catrell even said that.
And a very, very fair, kindwoman.
I mean, I don't know her, butanytime I've ever seen her,
she's been interacted with avery, very nice person.
So that's what I wanted to sayabout that.
Done.
Brad Shreve (44:37):
The only other thing I gotta say about this is
Kim Ctrell was the better Savikwhen it came to Star Trek.
Much better.
Much better than Kirsty Allen.
Tony Maietta (44:46):
And I love Kim Cottrell.
She was brilliant as Samantha.
I missed her as Samantha likeeverybody else.
Brad Shreve (44:51):
Yeah.
Tony Maietta (44:52):
The show was not the same without Samantha.
Yes, this is not.
I think Willie Garson evensaid, God rest his soul, Willie
Garson even said that we're nottalking about, we're talking
about somebody who's a brilliantactress here.
This woman is a brilliantactress.
She deserves to get paid herworth.
However, it's never going to bethe same as the woman who
started this thing.
It's like Vivian Vance saying,I want to get as much money as
Lucy.
(45:12):
It's not going to happen.
It's not going to happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (45:16):
This was fun.
Well, we'll have to considerdoing some of these again in the
future.
Just some random Hollywoodquestions.
Tony Maietta (45:21):
Yeah, it was a nice change of pace.
Brad Shreve (45:22):
Listener, tell us what you think.
Do you like these?
Tony Maietta (45:25):
If you like Tony just being on the hot seat.
Brad Shreve (45:28):
Yes.
And if you if you don't, bekind about it.
Yes, be kind.
And you know how you can tellus, you can text us in the show
notes.
There is a button there.
All you gotta do is click thatbutton.
We can't respond directly toyou.
We can only do it on the air.
But if you click that, you willpop up on your phone and you
can just send us a text and say,hey, I think it's a great idea,
or I'd rather hear about moviesdirectly.
Tony Maietta (45:49):
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
And they can also follow orsubscribe to the podcast.
And um that would be great too.
And again, we really, reallyappreciate these, these reviews
and these ratings.
Thank you so much, everybody,for listening and for being so
kind in your in your comments.
We'll be back for our final uhair quote scary October episode.
(46:11):
We got one more to go, onefilm, which was actually a
request from a from a listener.
And I could not be morepleased.
I can't wait to talk about it.
Because I've been wanting totalk about this movie for over a
year.
Last Halloween I wanted to talkabout it.
Yeah, it's been on our agenda.
It's been on and off.
It'll be fun.
It'll be fun.
Well, Brad, in that case, Iguess there's just one thing
(46:32):
left to say.
But I've been talking andtalking and talking, so I don't
want to say it.
But I'll just say this.
Let's not say goodbye.
Let's just say au revoir.
Brad Shreve (46:42):
No, I've heard enough of you talking.
Let's say goodbye.
But anyway, what I was sayingwas Go bye, everybody.
That's all, folks.
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