October 8, 2019 • 33 mins
Dr. Susan Smyth, Director of the Gill Heart & Vascular Institute joins Kim and Michelle to discuss the therapy dog program being used to rehabilitate heart and stroke patients. Michelle trained both of Susan's dogs, Carmine and Saleh, that work at the hospital three days a week. Carmine is one of a select few therapy dogs, (if not the only one) that is trained to walk with heart patients on EKMO. Listen to discussion on how this program was created, implemented and managed. Gives detailed information on the training involved for not only the dogs, but the human owners and handlers. Discusses the policies and procedures developed for the Gill Heart Institute to allow therapy dogs in the hospital, including the legal and insurance side of the process. Fantastic and fascinating insight into a therapy dog program done right.
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Announcer (00:00):
Welcome to good dog nation, the weekly video podcast
that's all about having a gooddog hosted by Michelle McCarthy,
CDBC CTAC, leading therapy, dogauthority and owner of canine
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(00:22):
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(00:44):
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Now let's join good dog nation.
Kim (01:03):
Welcome to good dog nation.
I'm here with my cohost MichelleMcCarthy from canine
homeschooling.
Hi Michelle.
And we are really thrilled tohave, uh, a guest today, Dr.
Susan Smith.
She is the director of the Gillheart and vascular Institute and
the chief, uh, division ofcardiovascular medicine.
(01:26):
Susan received her medicaldegree from the university of
North Carolina school ofmedicine in chapel Hill, which
is where I am in chapel Hill.
Yay.
She then completed fellowshipsat Mount Sinai medical school,
New York and university of NorthCarolina in chapel Hill.
Her clinical interests are inheart disease treatment and
prevention with a particularfocus on disorders of blood
clotting, such as uh, such ascause heart attacks, strokes,
(01:49):
lungs and leg clots.
And she has a very interestingset up at the Gil heart
Institute with therapy dogs.
And she and Michelle have had aconnection for a long time.
So Michelle, I'm going to letyou tell us about the very
interesting, uh, relationshipyou two have and, uh, the
(02:11):
therapy dogs that Susan has.
Sure.
So about five years ago, I'llactually, six years ago, I had
trained a black lab named boltfor a dr Erika Erlandson who was
working at cha Cardinal Hill,which is a division in
university of Kentucky medicalcenter.
And what was working with her.
I think he'd been there about ayear and I believe dr smite saw,
(02:36):
uh, dr Erlandson and bolt in thehospital and one thing led to
another and they started talkingand both made a visit to dr
smites warmly to her home tokind of get to know everybody.
And from here, Dr.
Smith or dr Erlandson said, isit okay if I connect you?
Um, Dr.
Smith is interested in therapydogs and she'd like to talk to
(02:57):
you more.
I had just started raising ayoung black lab named Carmen.
Um, Hey, he had joined my familyat that point.
I was like, well, he might staywith our family.
I'm not sure.
You know what his future's goinggonna hold.
I'd been racing and trainingdogs for, for folks for a little
while.
Um, and it was[inaudible] reallymaybe three, four weeks into him
(03:17):
joining my family that I got acall from dr Smyth and kind of
one thing led to another.
He was a really wonderful dogand I just loved his
temperament.
And even though it's impossibleto know it, you know, four
months what a dog is going todo, I felt he really had the
potential and the temperament tobe a therapy dog if that's what
he wanted when he was an adultdog.
(03:39):
So we kind of started theadventure at that point of I'm
going to raise him and trainhim.
We'll just keep evaluating himevery step of the way and see if
this is the job that he wants.
Um, I knew the most importantthing to me was the first
conversation I had with dr Smythwas that her family loved dogs
and that more than anything,they wouldn't have a dog join
(04:01):
their family.
And it would be wonderful if heended up having a job too.
So my priority when I raiseddogs for other people is that
first and foremost, they have towant a dog.
They have to really want to havea dog in their family.
And if the dog has a job, that'seven better.
So that's kind of where itstarted on my end.
And then from there it wasreally a year long process of
(04:23):
preparing all of the staff thatyou K uh, Dr.
Smith, you know, really havingto kind of put together a
program.
There was a lot of communicationbetween us.
Um, she and her family wereSkyping into training sessions
for Carmen.
He would come to group classes,need Skype in.
So they were getting to know himand he had his own Facebook
(04:44):
page.
I started a page for him cause Iwanted them to feel that they
were having the experience inwatching him grow up and getting
to know him.
Not just a year later, you know,here, here's your dog.
Um, so it was a lot of funbecause they got to see what I
was seeing and Skyping intoclasses.
They got to see him working inclass and having fun.
(05:04):
So I might, and it was a greatexperience and I think on UK
university, Kentucky's and itwas a year long process of
getting ready for him.
And I'll let dr[inaudible] kindof explain from, from her end,
um, you know, how did you firstbecome interested in therapy?
Dogs.
Like what was your, what wasyour reason for thinking?
(05:26):
Yeah, this is something we'dreally like to do at your heart.
Dr. Susan Smyth (05:31):
So several years ago we opened a new, um,
pavilion of our hospital wherethe, the heart patients, um, are
now taken care of.
And so patients that are, forexample, recovering from a heart
attacks or having had heartsurgery.
(05:51):
And as we were designing thisnew floor, we were incorporating
a lot of new therapies that areall aimed to try to accelerate
the healing process.
And so the entire floor forexample, is designed around the
use of art.
Kim (06:07):
Yes.
Dr. Susan Smyth (06:09):
In um, health care recovery and we have music
therapy and we got veryinterested in the concept of pet
therapy.
There is a lot of goodliterature around the use of pet
therapy in patients with heartconditions.
We also in the design of thefloor looked at things like how
we can increase mobility of ourpatients, get them up walking
(06:31):
earlier and the use of, of dogs.
Um, and you know, as part of ourmobility team was something that
we were very interested in andit was around that time that I
met Eric and bolt and thingsreally took off from there.
Kim (06:48):
Okay.
Yes.
So that was at that point and Iwas raising Carmine and I was
need to have a lot ofinformation about what the dog's
job will be because everytherapy dog can have a different
job.
And I remember in theconversations that we had, one
of them was that car mine wasgoing to be the motivator
(07:09):
hopefully to get people up andmoving that um, and Dr.
Smith can share, you know, someof the, the types of patients
that are on the unit, some ofthere for very long time.
They're very sick.
Um, they're not always verymotivated to want to get up and
move.
Um, but it changes everything.
When a really cute dog shows upat your door and they ask you,
(07:31):
would you like to go for walkwith car mine versus do you want
to walk the physical therapist?
Um, so the dog really is a greatmotivator, um, for patients.
So my training with bothconsisted of obviously a lot of
socialization.
Um, you know, I wanted him tohave a lot of exposure to all
kinds of people out in thecommunity, clearly loved people
(07:53):
from when he was a little puppy.
Um, he had a wonderfultemperament.
He was very easygoing dog.
He wasn't a dog that, you know,had any concerns about him
developing issues.
Um, he was a great pop and hewas great young dog.
Um, so we would go out in thecommunity.
He trained in class with me.
Obviously he lived with myfamily, so he was exposed to
lots of people.
(08:14):
Um, lots of walking when I knewthat his job would encompass
walking.
He not only had to be a dog whowalked while on leash, but he
had to be a dog who could adjustthe pace of his walk based on
who he was walking with.
So he had to be comfortablewalking very slow and then
picking up the pace, um, youknow, based on who was holding
(08:34):
the leash or who was walkingwith him, that would determine
how quickly he'd be walking.
And some dogs are notcomfortable walking at a snail's
pace next to a patient or personwho just walks very slow.
But Kerman was, he just had avery, it's a very easygoing
personality.
Um, so training him was just,you know, I think at one point
(08:55):
our training, and I walked himevery day.
I love to walk the dog.
So he probably walked a thousandmiles with me in the time that I
had him.
I had logged at at one point andwe just walk and walk and walk
and walk.
And people would see me out inthe street and we would walk.
And then we walked really slow.
We walk really fast and theyprobably thought, is she sick or
so wrong with her?
(09:16):
But she would walk in so weird.
Um, we'd walk at the mall.
We trained at a local hospital,so he would be used to all the
things that go on in thehospital from the overhead
announcements, uh, elevators,equipment, floor cleaners,
vacuums, dropping things on thefloor, white jackets,
everything.
(09:37):
Um, he volunteered in a coupleof different parts of the
hospital.
So it was easy for me to seecontinuing to train him just
what a great dog he was going tobe.
And also what a great familymember cause he was just such a
sweet dog.
I just loved him.
Um, so at one point, I think itwas in November, a few months
(09:57):
before he was actually going tomove.
Um, his handler is a woman namedCaitlin King.
She is exercise physiologist.
Um, and Dr.
Smith can explain a little moredetailed what her job is at the
Gail heart Institute, but shewas going to become Caroline's
handler.
Um, and so she came up here tomy home and stayed with us for a
(10:18):
few days and was really learninghow karma I learned like how did
I train this dog and how doesshe, how is she going to work
with him?
And this is something that a lotof the clients that are, that I
work with, they commit to thisongoing training of I can't just
hand you a train dog, he's not awindup toy and say, here you go,
(10:41):
have fun.
You have to really understandhow he learned and what he knows
and what he responds to so thatyou can be an effective team and
at a great time with Kaitlin,she was very excited to meet him
and then she was able to go backto Gill heart and start prepping
all the other staff that wouldhave interaction with Carline's.
(11:02):
So it was one of the best, and Isay this, I've shared this with
Kim on many occasions that thatexperience was, and today still
is the best example of having adog work in your facility.
A lot of people try it.
A lot of people do it.
They don't necessarily do itwell.
They don't do it in the bestinterest of the dog and they
(11:24):
don't do it in the best interestof the patients in the staff.
But dr Smyth and her team havemade sure that this is a very
well organized well run programthat covers everybody's needs,
not just, Oh, I brought my dogto work and now we'll see what
happens.
Um, so I'll let Dr.
Smith kind of shared during thatthat year of waiting for Carmen,
(11:47):
which I'm guessing was a littlehard because here I have him
and, and he's, you know,everybody's waiting for him to
come.
Um, which is why I started theFacebook page so they could at
least see kind of in real time,okay, this is what our dog is
doing.
But I know there was a lot ofprep on your end to get ready
for him.
Dr. Susan Smyth (12:08):
Certainly was a lot of excitement both at work
but also at home as we werewaiting for karma.
And we have two boys who wereearly teens at the time and
we're just thrilled about thepossibility of, of having Carmen
come to be our dog.
We M D did do a lot of prep workin the hospital.
(12:30):
So as Michelle mentioned, weidentified somebody that is car
handler still today on Caitlin.
Has the whole entire time.
Then his handler at work, she'san exercise physiologist.
She's part of our cardiacrehabilitation program and so
she works with patients that arein the hospital, getting them
(12:50):
prepared to go home but gettingthe rehab, what we call the
phase one rehab process, makingthe transition to home and too
often to cardiac rehab.
That continues after afterdischarge from the hospital and
as an exercise physiologist issomebody that is very familiar
with things like mobility.
She has an interest in ananimal's herself and was very
(13:14):
keen to be Carmine's handler, soshe works with Carmine three
times a week.
She actually helped us write allof the policies for the ho for
the Gil heart and vascularInstitute for our pet therapy
program.
She took what was at the timeexisting in the hospital, which
really was pretty limitedmaterial and worked with best
(13:37):
practices that Michelle andothers provided to her.
Really to put together aframework for how we were going
to have therapy dogs in theheart Institute in a safe and
effective manner.
And that really did require afair amount of work on her part.
Kim (13:57):
So our co but Carmine and Selah.
Are the only two therapy dogs inyour hospital or are there
others?
Dr. Susan Smyth (14:04):
No, there, there are now others, there are
a number of therapy dogs and inthe hospital at the time, at the
time we had know what we would,what we call a Carmen and tailor
our unit specific dogs.
And so as I said, car, mine isspecific for the heart and
vascular Institute.
Now he will visit other places,but his primary role is with,
(14:29):
with heart patients sail.
His primary role is with strokepatients.
There are other dogs that comeand visit patients across the
hospital.
It's at our hospital.
It started actually in thechildren's hospital and now we
have a number of, of uh, dogsthat, that visit in different
places in the hospital.
Kim (14:52):
And just to clarify Carmine and Selah, live with you.
They are your personal familydogs.
And then you take them to workand at work they have a separate
handler that actually works withthem and the patient
Dr. Susan Smyth (15:08):
that is correct.
So they are dogs, for the mostof their life.
Regular dogs then do regular dogthings, um, three times a week.
So Monday, Wednesday, Fridaythey, my husband brings them
into work.
He has a very set routine thathe does with them.
They walk around the campus andthen they come into my office
(15:31):
and we actually have multiplepeople that keep an eye on them.
And so they, we have several ofour staff in the office that are
available to take care of them.
They each have handlers that,that take them up to visit with
the patients.
As I said, um, Caitlin, who'sbeen Carmen Tandler from the
(15:54):
beginning sale is actually had acouple of different handlers and
so we've had to go through sometransitions there.
She a, as I mentioned, workswith stroke patients and has a
slightly different role.
Carmine really focuses onwalking with our, our patients
and getting them up and moving.
Selah works on gross motormovement with stroke patients.
(16:14):
And so she'll climb out to theirbed and let them patter.
Um, brush.
Um, you know, being able to, tomanipulate a brush is, is a
skill that stroke patients canstart to work on in the
hospital.
Um, she'll bounce balls with thepatients.
Again, those type of, of grossmotor movements that a stroke
patient very often needs torelearn how to do.
(16:40):
And then as you know, as Imentioned, when they're, they,
they typically, um, work forseveral hours in the morning.
It's pretty exhausting work forthem.
And then there are folks in theoffice that keep an eye on them.
You know, while my husband and Iare, are busy working and so
there's really a team of peoplearound the dogs.
It, um, it's frankly notsomething that my husband and I
(17:01):
could do on our own.
We have full time jobs and, andhave multiple people who also
have full time jobs.
And so it's a combination of alot of different people working
with the dogs.
Kim (17:14):
So I'm curious what kind of training the handlers went
through versus your other staffin knowing how to deal with the
dogs when they arrived and, and,and,
Dr. Susan Smyth (17:25):
yeah, so absolutely.
And so they have all worked, uh,remotely or in person with
Michelle.
So Kaitlyn actually went andspent time with Michelle too to
work on certain skills withCarmen.
The handlers are all certifiedwith the dogs and so they, they,
and that requires that they'veworked with the dogs and they've
(17:47):
trained with the dogs.
And so it's a fairly, we gothrough interviews with, with
the, the handlers as well.
And so it's a fairly rigorousprocess that they've had to go
through and then they have topass a task that they can be a
certified handler.
And, and what kind ofcertification is that?
(18:09):
Who is that through?
So the testing, the actualtherapy dog testing for their
handlers is through Alliance oftherapy dogs.
So it's a, it's a very rigoroustest.
It's not something where, Oh,you just can your dog sit and
walk with you on a leash.
They're really being observed asa team interacting with
(18:29):
patients, being in the facility.
How is the dog, what is theircomfort level?
How is the dog responding towhat's being asked of them?
Because again, we don't want toput a dog in a job, they're not
suited forwards.
Right?
It's bad for everybody.
So, um, obviously the dogs, bothCarmen and Saylah lived down in
(18:49):
Kentucky and were working for ayear minimum before they were
tested.
So they had to really get toknow their job, get to know the
handlers, the new routine, andthen they went through the
formal testing process, which isreally required for liability
purposes.
Michelle (19:07):
You know, the teams need to be tested, they need to
be certified handlers, they needto have the insurance that comes
with that.
Um, but you know, again, it's,it's just, it's a long process
and I don't know that a lot ofpeople realize how much
preparation goes into it, howmuch training, coordination of
staff developing the, the dog'sjob description.
(19:29):
And I think those jobdescriptions can just keep
evolving.
Selah is, at least when she waswith me, she was a different
temperament than Carmine.
She's, she's a little spunkier.
Um, I always would joke if youwould, you know, get Carmine to
do an interactive game.
He would just kinda, you know,kind of look at you like, Oh,
that looks like a lot of fun.
(19:49):
Why don't you go get that ball?
Um, but Se.
Dr. Susan Smyth (19:51):
Selah is just, she's just got this spunk and
she was a very interactive dogand I could tell when I was
raising her, I could really seeher doing, uh, participating in
physical therapy andparticipating in specific skill
training.
Michelle (20:07):
Cause that's just her temperament.
She's just this fun lovinglittle dog.
Um, Carmine, he just had thatslow, steady, consistent
temperament, which is alsocritical for a therapy dog.
So they have very importantjobs.
They have different jobs andthey have the temperament to
match their job.
So dogs are successful when wegive them a job that they're
(20:29):
good at, just like people.
Um, so what I loved about themand even seeing them, you know,
a couple of years later, is thatthere's still really the same
dogs that I raised.
They're just the sweetest,kindest dogs.
Um, and it's a lot of fun to seewhat they're doing.
They have great jobs.
[inaudible]
Dr. Susan Smyth (20:50):
they certainly have very different
personalities and their, theirpersonalities really do match
what they do at work.
Um, Carmen is a phenomenal leashWalker, and in fact, we'll walk
off leash right next to you.
He, as Michelle said, he willpace to whatever speed, uh, an
(21:10):
individual is walking at wwhereas sail, uh, wants to
please.
And so she is very eager tointeract with people and, um,
you know, she's very much apeople pleaser and, and, uh, so
I, I think the jobs that theyhave really do suit what their
skills and their personalitiesare.
(21:32):
Folks at work are alwayssurprised when they see video or
pictures of car mine doingthings like swimming in a pool
or running around the backyardbecause he is so laid back at
work.
And so, uh, and, and there,there go on.
Kim (21:50):
Yeah, they're very different.
And I think that, you know,that's the most important part
of having these dogs who havethese big jobs is they have to
also be allowed to be dogs andthey come home on their days
off.
So what do Carmen and Selah doon their days off?
Dr. Susan Smyth (22:05):
They just hang out at the house and, and play
together.
One of the reasons that wereally were keen to get a second
dog was so that Carmen hadsomebody at home to, to interact
with and play with.
We had typically had two dogs inthe past and so, and, and you
know, the dogs being able tojust run around in the backyard
(22:27):
and play, we thought, you know,it's uh, it's very stressful for
them to be at work.
And you know, those days off arevery important.
And so they, our dogs on theirdays off, they play together,
they play with the boys.
Uh, they swim in the pool, we'dgo for long walks around the
neighborhood and Selah has hersame exuberance in the[
(22:50):
Vinaudible] pool, doesn't she?
Oh, she, the first time she sawour PO, she dived right in.
Carmen was a car mine since thatcar, a little more leery,
although now he loves to swim.
He was a little more leery goingin the first time.
She just, I mean literally doveinto the pool and uh, kinda
(23:12):
hasn't stopped since.
I'm curious what the feedbackhas been
Kim (23:17):
for your hospital to have a program like this and what, what
it's like from the patient'sside to be in the hospital
Dr. Susan Smyth (23:25):
and there'd be therapy dogs.
Absolutely.
I think it's been transformativeand so, uh, both for our
patients but also for the staff.
And so I, I like to sharesomething that really touched me
and was actually somewhatsurprising to me.
I had one patient who told methat that Carmen's visits had
(23:51):
been so very important to themas they were going through the
situations that they were goingthrough in the recovery process
in the hospital.
And that when Carmen came intothe room for the first time,
they realized that they couldn'tbe as bad off as they thought
that they were.
If a dog, something is normal asa dog could walk into their room
(24:14):
and[inaudible] for them.
It made them feel really hopefulthat that things couldn't be so
bad because here was this blacklab that was able to come in to
see them.
I should explain that our, the,the, our hospital's a very high
acuity hospitals so we take careof patients that really can't be
(24:36):
managed at other hospitals innot just our statement, the
region of the country that we'rein.
And so we have patients that areon things like ECMO, which is
extra couple Oriel membraneoxygenation.
That's what ECMO stands for.
It's the machine that literallytakes blood out of people's
(24:59):
body.
It oxygenates the blood andpumps it back in and we have
people that walk in our, on ourfloor on ECMO.
It's sort of the highest levelof support that's possible when
your heart and your lungs are nolonger working.
Carmen walks with patients onECMO and so you know, for a dog
(25:19):
that's very sensitive to smell,I mean I think all most dogs are
, are, are, are, are very smellsensitive.
There is an overwhelming smellof blood on our floor because I
mean people are living on thesemachines that are circulating
their blood outside their body.
And it took Carmen a long timeto get used to that and to get
(25:40):
to the point where he could walkwith these patients.
But he now routinely does that.
And you know, again, I think the, the benefit for the patients
has been absolutely enormous.
We've had patients thatliterally were in the hospital
for months not being able to getout of bed and we encourage them
(26:02):
first to sit and that if theycould sit, Carmen would come and
sit next to them and eventuallygot those folks to the point
where they were walking withCarmen.
And you know, you, there's nowords that can express that.
Kim (26:18):
No, there isn't an I, my father had valve replacement
surgery twice and I know thetype of, he, he was not as bad
off as what you're talkingabout.
But yeah, I mean it's, it's justa level of care and a recovery
process that is extreme.
And I can imagine to have a dogthere, bring some sense of
(26:42):
normalcy and really just makesyou feel good.
So Kim, I'm going to attempt toplay a video that was
Speaker 6 (27:07):
[ Video music]
Video Talent (27:07):
We have a new member of our team and that new
member of our team is Carmen andhe is our pet therapy dog.
And Carmen is a wonderfuladdition to the team, especially
with all of our patients thathave been here for a long time.
It gives them something to lookforward to that isn't medical,
it isn't hospital walls.
It's funny, the medicalpersonnel.
So he gives that emotionalsupport to all these patients
(27:30):
and we can use him as amotivating factor.
There was a patient that hadbeen here for approximately four
months, and so we had beenvisiting with her on and off.
We'd walk with her multipletimes.
Um, but she said that she hadtwo little Wiener dogs at home
that were waiting on her andthat she loved Carmen so much
(27:50):
and that he was her motivationto get home to her little
puppies.
I actually just brought him intomy patient's room.
She's seemed a little bitdepressed today, so I thought
it'd be a good idea for him tocome say hi.
And she has a dog at home of herown.
So we got him up to the chairand she was able to pet him and
he gave her a nice wet kiss onher hand and it made her smile.
(28:11):
We have had patients that havebeen in the bed from months that
have felt that they were tooweak to get up out of bed and
Carline has come in and workedwith them and gotten them not
only out of the bed, but gottenthem to walk.
And then even from walking,Carmen has spent several
extended periods of time withthese patients now off the floor
(28:32):
down, for example, in our lovelygardens outside the cafeteria.
And so he's been able to helpthose patients go from literally
being bed bound to being able toenjoy a meal outside in the sun.
So he does all of thesewonderful things at home that he
, that he does here at work forall of us.
I think that it's wonderful forall of us to, to remember that
(28:54):
there is incredible power ofhealing in animals.
Kim (29:07):
That pretty much says it all right there.
Okay.
Really, really that's such a,such a unique, um, do we have
any, are there any statistics ordo you have any information as
to how many other hospitals inthe U S have a program like this
or anything close to it?
I don't, I don't know.
Michelle, if you, if you do, sohow many hospitals in the United
(29:33):
States are able to walk patientson ECMO?
The way you have a special cert,you have to go through special.
We do.
We do.
And we were really
Dr. Susan Smyth (29:42):
at the forefront of, of some of that
with some, with some surgeonsthat really promoted this, it,
it actually took our nurses wellover a year to become
comfortable with that process,let alone then inserting a
therapy dog.
And so there, there are fairlyfew hospitals in the ICT that
(30:04):
perform that, that offer ECMO,let alone that, that ambulate
their patients on it.
And so I'm not sure there'sanother therapy dog in the, in
the world that walks with ECMOpatients that that would be
something I could actually lookinto.
Kim (30:19):
Yeah, fairly my, yeah.
And my research, you know, Iknow that there are therapy dogs
who've been involved indifferent cardiovascular studies
and, and I'm sure they visitlots of different areas of
hospitals, but I've not heard ofa single dog, a therapy dog that
walks with patients on ECMO.
Cause when you think about justthe team of people required to
(30:41):
do that, so the dog has toacclimate to his job and then
the, all the distractions as youmentioned, the smells, then he's
got the noise of any equipmentinvolved and then you have
multiple people.
So it isn't just Carmen and thepatient and the handler, it's
probably lots of other peopleinvolved.
So it's a very distractingenvironment to put a dog in and
(31:07):
expect them to be comfortable.
Um, so I think it's notsomething that a lot of places
take on because it requires alot of coordination.
Dr[inaudible], thank you so muchfor joining us today.
Uh, I've, the information that'sbeen shared I think is so
valuable to, uh, not only otherdog professionals, but for
(31:28):
anybody who's thinking about adog in the workplace program and
uh, you know, thank you ladiesfor uh, for sharing.
Dr. Susan Smyth (31:36):
Absolutely.
I have to say, I feel like wetalked a lot about three.
Can I get[inaudible] to comeover and maybe we can get her
the turnover.
Kim (31:45):
Here she comes.
Oh, there they are.
(32:07):
And how old are these dogs now?
So Carmen will, he will be fivein December.
I'm going to be five.
Caroline will be five and shewill be little after she turned
three in April.
Yeah.
So they were roughly like twoyears apart in age.
(32:33):
Ah, awesome.
What a beautiful guy are verysweet puppies.
Again, thank you so much andthank you sailor for saying
[inaudible] at the end.
And uh, please join us againnext time everybody.
Thank you for watching.
(32:56):
Thanks for having me.
Announcer (32:58):
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Welcome to good dog nation, the weekly video podcast
that's all about having a gooddog hosted by Michelle McCarthy,
CDBC CTAC, leading therapy, dogauthority and owner of canine
homeschooling and Kim merit,cofounder of good dog in a
box.com.
Good dog pro.com and founder ofthe URL doctor.
(00:22):
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(00:44):
work with dogs and canine.
homeschooling.com remote rewardbased dog training, behavior
consulting and therapy dogconsulting with Michelle
McCarthy.
Now let's join good dog nation.
Kim (01:03):
Welcome to good dog nation.
I'm here with my cohost MichelleMcCarthy from canine
homeschooling.
Hi Michelle.
And we are really thrilled tohave, uh, a guest today, Dr.
Susan Smith.
She is the director of the Gillheart and vascular Institute and
the chief, uh, division ofcardiovascular medicine.
(01:26):
Susan received her medicaldegree from the university of
North Carolina school ofmedicine in chapel Hill, which
is where I am in chapel Hill.
Yay.
She then completed fellowshipsat Mount Sinai medical school,
New York and university of NorthCarolina in chapel Hill.
Her clinical interests are inheart disease treatment and
prevention with a particularfocus on disorders of blood
clotting, such as uh, such ascause heart attacks, strokes,
(01:49):
lungs and leg clots.
And she has a very interestingset up at the Gil heart
Institute with therapy dogs.
And she and Michelle have had aconnection for a long time.
So Michelle, I'm going to letyou tell us about the very
interesting, uh, relationshipyou two have and, uh, the
(02:11):
therapy dogs that Susan has.
Sure.
So about five years ago, I'llactually, six years ago, I had
trained a black lab named boltfor a dr Erika Erlandson who was
working at cha Cardinal Hill,which is a division in
university of Kentucky medicalcenter.
And what was working with her.
I think he'd been there about ayear and I believe dr smite saw,
(02:36):
uh, dr Erlandson and bolt in thehospital and one thing led to
another and they started talkingand both made a visit to dr
smites warmly to her home tokind of get to know everybody.
And from here, Dr.
Smith or dr Erlandson said, isit okay if I connect you?
Um, Dr.
Smith is interested in therapydogs and she'd like to talk to
(02:57):
you more.
I had just started raising ayoung black lab named Carmen.
Um, Hey, he had joined my familyat that point.
I was like, well, he might staywith our family.
I'm not sure.
You know what his future's goinggonna hold.
I'd been racing and trainingdogs for, for folks for a little
while.
Um, and it was[inaudible] reallymaybe three, four weeks into him
(03:17):
joining my family that I got acall from dr Smyth and kind of
one thing led to another.
He was a really wonderful dogand I just loved his
temperament.
And even though it's impossibleto know it, you know, four
months what a dog is going todo, I felt he really had the
potential and the temperament tobe a therapy dog if that's what
he wanted when he was an adultdog.
(03:39):
So we kind of started theadventure at that point of I'm
going to raise him and trainhim.
We'll just keep evaluating himevery step of the way and see if
this is the job that he wants.
Um, I knew the most importantthing to me was the first
conversation I had with dr Smythwas that her family loved dogs
and that more than anything,they wouldn't have a dog join
(04:01):
their family.
And it would be wonderful if heended up having a job too.
So my priority when I raiseddogs for other people is that
first and foremost, they have towant a dog.
They have to really want to havea dog in their family.
And if the dog has a job, that'seven better.
So that's kind of where itstarted on my end.
And then from there it wasreally a year long process of
(04:23):
preparing all of the staff thatyou K uh, Dr.
Smith, you know, really havingto kind of put together a
program.
There was a lot of communicationbetween us.
Um, she and her family wereSkyping into training sessions
for Carmen.
He would come to group classes,need Skype in.
So they were getting to know himand he had his own Facebook
(04:44):
page.
I started a page for him cause Iwanted them to feel that they
were having the experience inwatching him grow up and getting
to know him.
Not just a year later, you know,here, here's your dog.
Um, so it was a lot of funbecause they got to see what I
was seeing and Skyping intoclasses.
They got to see him working inclass and having fun.
(05:04):
So I might, and it was a greatexperience and I think on UK
university, Kentucky's and itwas a year long process of
getting ready for him.
And I'll let dr[inaudible] kindof explain from, from her end,
um, you know, how did you firstbecome interested in therapy?
Dogs.
Like what was your, what wasyour reason for thinking?
(05:26):
Yeah, this is something we'dreally like to do at your heart.
Dr. Susan Smyth (05:31):
So several years ago we opened a new, um,
pavilion of our hospital wherethe, the heart patients, um, are
now taken care of.
And so patients that are, forexample, recovering from a heart
attacks or having had heartsurgery.
(05:51):
And as we were designing thisnew floor, we were incorporating
a lot of new therapies that areall aimed to try to accelerate
the healing process.
And so the entire floor forexample, is designed around the
use of art.
Kim (06:07):
Yes.
Dr. Susan Smyth (06:09):
In um, health care recovery and we have music
therapy and we got veryinterested in the concept of pet
therapy.
There is a lot of goodliterature around the use of pet
therapy in patients with heartconditions.
We also in the design of thefloor looked at things like how
we can increase mobility of ourpatients, get them up walking
(06:31):
earlier and the use of, of dogs.
Um, and you know, as part of ourmobility team was something that
we were very interested in andit was around that time that I
met Eric and bolt and thingsreally took off from there.
Kim (06:48):
Okay.
Yes.
So that was at that point and Iwas raising Carmine and I was
need to have a lot ofinformation about what the dog's
job will be because everytherapy dog can have a different
job.
And I remember in theconversations that we had, one
of them was that car mine wasgoing to be the motivator
(07:09):
hopefully to get people up andmoving that um, and Dr.
Smith can share, you know, someof the, the types of patients
that are on the unit, some ofthere for very long time.
They're very sick.
Um, they're not always verymotivated to want to get up and
move.
Um, but it changes everything.
When a really cute dog shows upat your door and they ask you,
(07:31):
would you like to go for walkwith car mine versus do you want
to walk the physical therapist?
Um, so the dog really is a greatmotivator, um, for patients.
So my training with bothconsisted of obviously a lot of
socialization.
Um, you know, I wanted him tohave a lot of exposure to all
kinds of people out in thecommunity, clearly loved people
(07:53):
from when he was a little puppy.
Um, he had a wonderfultemperament.
He was very easygoing dog.
He wasn't a dog that, you know,had any concerns about him
developing issues.
Um, he was a great pop and hewas great young dog.
Um, so we would go out in thecommunity.
He trained in class with me.
Obviously he lived with myfamily, so he was exposed to
lots of people.
(08:14):
Um, lots of walking when I knewthat his job would encompass
walking.
He not only had to be a dog whowalked while on leash, but he
had to be a dog who could adjustthe pace of his walk based on
who he was walking with.
So he had to be comfortablewalking very slow and then
picking up the pace, um, youknow, based on who was holding
(08:34):
the leash or who was walkingwith him, that would determine
how quickly he'd be walking.
And some dogs are notcomfortable walking at a snail's
pace next to a patient or personwho just walks very slow.
But Kerman was, he just had avery, it's a very easygoing
personality.
Um, so training him was just,you know, I think at one point
(08:55):
our training, and I walked himevery day.
I love to walk the dog.
So he probably walked a thousandmiles with me in the time that I
had him.
I had logged at at one point andwe just walk and walk and walk
and walk.
And people would see me out inthe street and we would walk.
And then we walked really slow.
We walk really fast and theyprobably thought, is she sick or
so wrong with her?
(09:16):
But she would walk in so weird.
Um, we'd walk at the mall.
We trained at a local hospital,so he would be used to all the
things that go on in thehospital from the overhead
announcements, uh, elevators,equipment, floor cleaners,
vacuums, dropping things on thefloor, white jackets,
everything.
(09:37):
Um, he volunteered in a coupleof different parts of the
hospital.
So it was easy for me to seecontinuing to train him just
what a great dog he was going tobe.
And also what a great familymember cause he was just such a
sweet dog.
I just loved him.
Um, so at one point, I think itwas in November, a few months
(09:57):
before he was actually going tomove.
Um, his handler is a woman namedCaitlin King.
She is exercise physiologist.
Um, and Dr.
Smith can explain a little moredetailed what her job is at the
Gail heart Institute, but shewas going to become Caroline's
handler.
Um, and so she came up here tomy home and stayed with us for a
(10:18):
few days and was really learninghow karma I learned like how did
I train this dog and how doesshe, how is she going to work
with him?
And this is something that a lotof the clients that are, that I
work with, they commit to thisongoing training of I can't just
hand you a train dog, he's not awindup toy and say, here you go,
(10:41):
have fun.
You have to really understandhow he learned and what he knows
and what he responds to so thatyou can be an effective team and
at a great time with Kaitlin,she was very excited to meet him
and then she was able to go backto Gill heart and start prepping
all the other staff that wouldhave interaction with Carline's.
(11:02):
So it was one of the best, and Isay this, I've shared this with
Kim on many occasions that thatexperience was, and today still
is the best example of having adog work in your facility.
A lot of people try it.
A lot of people do it.
They don't necessarily do itwell.
They don't do it in the bestinterest of the dog and they
(11:24):
don't do it in the best interestof the patients in the staff.
But dr Smyth and her team havemade sure that this is a very
well organized well run programthat covers everybody's needs,
not just, Oh, I brought my dogto work and now we'll see what
happens.
Um, so I'll let Dr.
Smith kind of shared during thatthat year of waiting for Carmen,
(11:47):
which I'm guessing was a littlehard because here I have him
and, and he's, you know,everybody's waiting for him to
come.
Um, which is why I started theFacebook page so they could at
least see kind of in real time,okay, this is what our dog is
doing.
But I know there was a lot ofprep on your end to get ready
for him.
Dr. Susan Smyth (12:08):
Certainly was a lot of excitement both at work
but also at home as we werewaiting for karma.
And we have two boys who wereearly teens at the time and
we're just thrilled about thepossibility of, of having Carmen
come to be our dog.
We M D did do a lot of prep workin the hospital.
(12:30):
So as Michelle mentioned, weidentified somebody that is car
handler still today on Caitlin.
Has the whole entire time.
Then his handler at work, she'san exercise physiologist.
She's part of our cardiacrehabilitation program and so
she works with patients that arein the hospital, getting them
(12:50):
prepared to go home but gettingthe rehab, what we call the
phase one rehab process, makingthe transition to home and too
often to cardiac rehab.
That continues after afterdischarge from the hospital and
as an exercise physiologist issomebody that is very familiar
with things like mobility.
She has an interest in ananimal's herself and was very
(13:14):
keen to be Carmine's handler, soshe works with Carmine three
times a week.
She actually helped us write allof the policies for the ho for
the Gil heart and vascularInstitute for our pet therapy
program.
She took what was at the timeexisting in the hospital, which
really was pretty limitedmaterial and worked with best
(13:37):
practices that Michelle andothers provided to her.
Really to put together aframework for how we were going
to have therapy dogs in theheart Institute in a safe and
effective manner.
And that really did require afair amount of work on her part.
Kim (13:57):
So our co but Carmine and Selah.
Are the only two therapy dogs inyour hospital or are there
others?
Dr. Susan Smyth (14:04):
No, there, there are now others, there are
a number of therapy dogs and inthe hospital at the time, at the
time we had know what we would,what we call a Carmen and tailor
our unit specific dogs.
And so as I said, car, mine isspecific for the heart and
vascular Institute.
Now he will visit other places,but his primary role is with,
(14:29):
with heart patients sail.
His primary role is with strokepatients.
There are other dogs that comeand visit patients across the
hospital.
It's at our hospital.
It started actually in thechildren's hospital and now we
have a number of, of uh, dogsthat, that visit in different
places in the hospital.
Kim (14:52):
And just to clarify Carmine and Selah, live with you.
They are your personal familydogs.
And then you take them to workand at work they have a separate
handler that actually works withthem and the patient
Dr. Susan Smyth (15:08):
that is correct.
So they are dogs, for the mostof their life.
Regular dogs then do regular dogthings, um, three times a week.
So Monday, Wednesday, Fridaythey, my husband brings them
into work.
He has a very set routine thathe does with them.
They walk around the campus andthen they come into my office
(15:31):
and we actually have multiplepeople that keep an eye on them.
And so they, we have several ofour staff in the office that are
available to take care of them.
They each have handlers that,that take them up to visit with
the patients.
As I said, um, Caitlin, who'sbeen Carmen Tandler from the
(15:54):
beginning sale is actually had acouple of different handlers and
so we've had to go through sometransitions there.
She a, as I mentioned, workswith stroke patients and has a
slightly different role.
Carmine really focuses onwalking with our, our patients
and getting them up and moving.
Selah works on gross motormovement with stroke patients.
(16:14):
And so she'll climb out to theirbed and let them patter.
Um, brush.
Um, you know, being able to, tomanipulate a brush is, is a
skill that stroke patients canstart to work on in the
hospital.
Um, she'll bounce balls with thepatients.
Again, those type of, of grossmotor movements that a stroke
patient very often needs torelearn how to do.
(16:40):
And then as you know, as Imentioned, when they're, they,
they typically, um, work forseveral hours in the morning.
It's pretty exhausting work forthem.
And then there are folks in theoffice that keep an eye on them.
You know, while my husband and Iare, are busy working and so
there's really a team of peoplearound the dogs.
It, um, it's frankly notsomething that my husband and I
(17:01):
could do on our own.
We have full time jobs and, andhave multiple people who also
have full time jobs.
And so it's a combination of alot of different people working
with the dogs.
Kim (17:14):
So I'm curious what kind of training the handlers went
through versus your other staffin knowing how to deal with the
dogs when they arrived and, and,and,
Dr. Susan Smyth (17:25):
yeah, so absolutely.
And so they have all worked, uh,remotely or in person with
Michelle.
So Kaitlyn actually went andspent time with Michelle too to
work on certain skills withCarmen.
The handlers are all certifiedwith the dogs and so they, they,
and that requires that they'veworked with the dogs and they've
(17:47):
trained with the dogs.
And so it's a fairly, we gothrough interviews with, with
the, the handlers as well.
And so it's a fairly rigorousprocess that they've had to go
through and then they have topass a task that they can be a
certified handler.
And, and what kind ofcertification is that?
(18:09):
Who is that through?
So the testing, the actualtherapy dog testing for their
handlers is through Alliance oftherapy dogs.
So it's a, it's a very rigoroustest.
It's not something where, Oh,you just can your dog sit and
walk with you on a leash.
They're really being observed asa team interacting with
(18:29):
patients, being in the facility.
How is the dog, what is theircomfort level?
How is the dog responding towhat's being asked of them?
Because again, we don't want toput a dog in a job, they're not
suited forwards.
Right?
It's bad for everybody.
So, um, obviously the dogs, bothCarmen and Saylah lived down in
(18:49):
Kentucky and were working for ayear minimum before they were
tested.
So they had to really get toknow their job, get to know the
handlers, the new routine, andthen they went through the
formal testing process, which isreally required for liability
purposes.
Michelle (19:07):
You know, the teams need to be tested, they need to
be certified handlers, they needto have the insurance that comes
with that.
Um, but you know, again, it's,it's just, it's a long process
and I don't know that a lot ofpeople realize how much
preparation goes into it, howmuch training, coordination of
staff developing the, the dog'sjob description.
(19:29):
And I think those jobdescriptions can just keep
evolving.
Selah is, at least when she waswith me, she was a different
temperament than Carmine.
She's, she's a little spunkier.
Um, I always would joke if youwould, you know, get Carmine to
do an interactive game.
He would just kinda, you know,kind of look at you like, Oh,
that looks like a lot of fun.
(19:49):
Why don't you go get that ball?
Um, but Se.
Dr. Susan Smyth (19:51):
Selah is just, she's just got this spunk and
she was a very interactive dogand I could tell when I was
raising her, I could really seeher doing, uh, participating in
physical therapy andparticipating in specific skill
training.
Michelle (20:07):
Cause that's just her temperament.
She's just this fun lovinglittle dog.
Um, Carmine, he just had thatslow, steady, consistent
temperament, which is alsocritical for a therapy dog.
So they have very importantjobs.
They have different jobs andthey have the temperament to
match their job.
So dogs are successful when wegive them a job that they're
(20:29):
good at, just like people.
Um, so what I loved about themand even seeing them, you know,
a couple of years later, is thatthere's still really the same
dogs that I raised.
They're just the sweetest,kindest dogs.
Um, and it's a lot of fun to seewhat they're doing.
They have great jobs.
[inaudible]
Dr. Susan Smyth (20:50):
they certainly have very different
personalities and their, theirpersonalities really do match
what they do at work.
Um, Carmen is a phenomenal leashWalker, and in fact, we'll walk
off leash right next to you.
He, as Michelle said, he willpace to whatever speed, uh, an
(21:10):
individual is walking at wwhereas sail, uh, wants to
please.
And so she is very eager tointeract with people and, um,
you know, she's very much apeople pleaser and, and, uh, so
I, I think the jobs that theyhave really do suit what their
skills and their personalitiesare.
(21:32):
Folks at work are alwayssurprised when they see video or
pictures of car mine doingthings like swimming in a pool
or running around the backyardbecause he is so laid back at
work.
And so, uh, and, and there,there go on.
Kim (21:50):
Yeah, they're very different.
And I think that, you know,that's the most important part
of having these dogs who havethese big jobs is they have to
also be allowed to be dogs andthey come home on their days
off.
So what do Carmen and Selah doon their days off?
Dr. Susan Smyth (22:05):
They just hang out at the house and, and play
together.
One of the reasons that wereally were keen to get a second
dog was so that Carmen hadsomebody at home to, to interact
with and play with.
We had typically had two dogs inthe past and so, and, and you
know, the dogs being able tojust run around in the backyard
(22:27):
and play, we thought, you know,it's uh, it's very stressful for
them to be at work.
And you know, those days off arevery important.
And so they, our dogs on theirdays off, they play together,
they play with the boys.
Uh, they swim in the pool, we'dgo for long walks around the
neighborhood and Selah has hersame exuberance in the[
(22:50):
Vinaudible] pool, doesn't she?
Oh, she, the first time she sawour PO, she dived right in.
Carmen was a car mine since thatcar, a little more leery,
although now he loves to swim.
He was a little more leery goingin the first time.
She just, I mean literally doveinto the pool and uh, kinda
(23:12):
hasn't stopped since.
I'm curious what the feedbackhas been
Kim (23:17):
for your hospital to have a program like this and what, what
it's like from the patient'sside to be in the hospital
Dr. Susan Smyth (23:25):
and there'd be therapy dogs.
Absolutely.
I think it's been transformativeand so, uh, both for our
patients but also for the staff.
And so I, I like to sharesomething that really touched me
and was actually somewhatsurprising to me.
I had one patient who told methat that Carmen's visits had
(23:51):
been so very important to themas they were going through the
situations that they were goingthrough in the recovery process
in the hospital.
And that when Carmen came intothe room for the first time,
they realized that they couldn'tbe as bad off as they thought
that they were.
If a dog, something is normal asa dog could walk into their room
(24:14):
and[inaudible] for them.
It made them feel really hopefulthat that things couldn't be so
bad because here was this blacklab that was able to come in to
see them.
I should explain that our, the,the, our hospital's a very high
acuity hospitals so we take careof patients that really can't be
(24:36):
managed at other hospitals innot just our statement, the
region of the country that we'rein.
And so we have patients that areon things like ECMO, which is
extra couple Oriel membraneoxygenation.
That's what ECMO stands for.
It's the machine that literallytakes blood out of people's
(24:59):
body.
It oxygenates the blood andpumps it back in and we have
people that walk in our, on ourfloor on ECMO.
It's sort of the highest levelof support that's possible when
your heart and your lungs are nolonger working.
Carmen walks with patients onECMO and so you know, for a dog
(25:19):
that's very sensitive to smell,I mean I think all most dogs are
, are, are, are, are very smellsensitive.
There is an overwhelming smellof blood on our floor because I
mean people are living on thesemachines that are circulating
their blood outside their body.
And it took Carmen a long timeto get used to that and to get
(25:40):
to the point where he could walkwith these patients.
But he now routinely does that.
And you know, again, I think the, the benefit for the patients
has been absolutely enormous.
We've had patients thatliterally were in the hospital
for months not being able to getout of bed and we encourage them
(26:02):
first to sit and that if theycould sit, Carmen would come and
sit next to them and eventuallygot those folks to the point
where they were walking withCarmen.
And you know, you, there's nowords that can express that.
Kim (26:18):
No, there isn't an I, my father had valve replacement
surgery twice and I know thetype of, he, he was not as bad
off as what you're talkingabout.
But yeah, I mean it's, it's justa level of care and a recovery
process that is extreme.
And I can imagine to have a dogthere, bring some sense of
(26:42):
normalcy and really just makesyou feel good.
So Kim, I'm going to attempt toplay a video that was
Speaker 6 (27:07):
[ Video music]
Video Talent (27:07):
We have a new member of our team and that new
member of our team is Carmen andhe is our pet therapy dog.
And Carmen is a wonderfuladdition to the team, especially
with all of our patients thathave been here for a long time.
It gives them something to lookforward to that isn't medical,
it isn't hospital walls.
It's funny, the medicalpersonnel.
So he gives that emotionalsupport to all these patients
(27:30):
and we can use him as amotivating factor.
There was a patient that hadbeen here for approximately four
months, and so we had beenvisiting with her on and off.
We'd walk with her multipletimes.
Um, but she said that she hadtwo little Wiener dogs at home
that were waiting on her andthat she loved Carmen so much
(27:50):
and that he was her motivationto get home to her little
puppies.
I actually just brought him intomy patient's room.
She's seemed a little bitdepressed today, so I thought
it'd be a good idea for him tocome say hi.
And she has a dog at home of herown.
So we got him up to the chairand she was able to pet him and
he gave her a nice wet kiss onher hand and it made her smile.
(28:11):
We have had patients that havebeen in the bed from months that
have felt that they were tooweak to get up out of bed and
Carline has come in and workedwith them and gotten them not
only out of the bed, but gottenthem to walk.
And then even from walking,Carmen has spent several
extended periods of time withthese patients now off the floor
(28:32):
down, for example, in our lovelygardens outside the cafeteria.
And so he's been able to helpthose patients go from literally
being bed bound to being able toenjoy a meal outside in the sun.
So he does all of thesewonderful things at home that he
, that he does here at work forall of us.
I think that it's wonderful forall of us to, to remember that
(28:54):
there is incredible power ofhealing in animals.
Kim (29:07):
That pretty much says it all right there.
Okay.
Really, really that's such a,such a unique, um, do we have
any, are there any statistics ordo you have any information as
to how many other hospitals inthe U S have a program like this
or anything close to it?
I don't, I don't know.
Michelle, if you, if you do, sohow many hospitals in the United
(29:33):
States are able to walk patientson ECMO?
The way you have a special cert,you have to go through special.
We do.
We do.
And we were really
Dr. Susan Smyth (29:42):
at the forefront of, of some of that
with some, with some surgeonsthat really promoted this, it,
it actually took our nurses wellover a year to become
comfortable with that process,let alone then inserting a
therapy dog.
And so there, there are fairlyfew hospitals in the ICT that
(30:04):
perform that, that offer ECMO,let alone that, that ambulate
their patients on it.
And so I'm not sure there'sanother therapy dog in the, in
the world that walks with ECMOpatients that that would be
something I could actually lookinto.
Kim (30:19):
Yeah, fairly my, yeah.
And my research, you know, Iknow that there are therapy dogs
who've been involved indifferent cardiovascular studies
and, and I'm sure they visitlots of different areas of
hospitals, but I've not heard ofa single dog, a therapy dog that
walks with patients on ECMO.
Cause when you think about justthe team of people required to
(30:41):
do that, so the dog has toacclimate to his job and then
the, all the distractions as youmentioned, the smells, then he's
got the noise of any equipmentinvolved and then you have
multiple people.
So it isn't just Carmen and thepatient and the handler, it's
probably lots of other peopleinvolved.
So it's a very distractingenvironment to put a dog in and
(31:07):
expect them to be comfortable.
Um, so I think it's notsomething that a lot of places
take on because it requires alot of coordination.
Dr[inaudible], thank you so muchfor joining us today.
Uh, I've, the information that'sbeen shared I think is so
valuable to, uh, not only otherdog professionals, but for
(31:28):
anybody who's thinking about adog in the workplace program and
uh, you know, thank you ladiesfor uh, for sharing.
Dr. Susan Smyth (31:36):
Absolutely.
I have to say, I feel like wetalked a lot about three.
Can I get[inaudible] to comeover and maybe we can get her
the turnover.
Kim (31:45):
Here she comes.
Oh, there they are.
(32:07):
And how old are these dogs now?
So Carmen will, he will be fivein December.
I'm going to be five.
Caroline will be five and shewill be little after she turned
three in April.
Yeah.
So they were roughly like twoyears apart in age.
(32:33):
Ah, awesome.
What a beautiful guy are verysweet puppies.
Again, thank you so much andthank you sailor for saying
[inaudible] at the end.
And uh, please join us againnext time everybody.
Thank you for watching.
(32:56):
Thanks for having me.
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