October 22, 2019 • 32 mins
Dr. Amy Pike, DVM, DACVB, IAABC-CABC, Boarded Veterinary Behaviorist talks about the role a vet behaviorist plays in dealing with aggression and extreme fear in dogs. One of only 84 vet behaviorists in North America, Dr. Pike is a specialist in behavior medicine, who is essentially the "psychiatrist" of the veterinary world. She discusses her field and how she works with dog owners, dog trainers, behavior consultants and other veterinarians. Dr. Pike discusses the importance of reward based dog training, early warning signs of fear and aggression in puppies, when you should consider contacting a vet behaviorist, the importance of socialization and the role it plays in aggression, and how she uses medication and natural supplementation to deal with dog-to-human aggression.
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Announcer (00:00):
Welcome to Good Dog Nation, the weekly video podcast
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(00:22):
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(00:44):
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Now let's join good dog nation.
Kim (00:50):
Hi everyone and welcome to the dog nation.
I am Kim Merritt, founder ofgood dog in a box and good dog
pro and I am here with my cohostMichelle McCarthy, of canine
homeschooling.
Hi Michelle, how are you?
Michelle (01:03):
Hi everybody.
Kim (01:04):
Good.
We have a very, very specialguest today and a really
interesting topic, dog to humanaggression and we are joined
today by Dr Amy Pike.
Hi Amy.
How are you?
Amy (01:17):
I'm good.
How are you?
Kim (01:18):
So before we get started, let me read to everybody.
Amy's very interesting bio and Ijust said to Michelle, I was
going to cut this down, but thenit's like, no, it's really
interesting and relevant, so Iwant to read the whole thing.
So dr pike graduated fromColorado state university of
veterinary medicine in 2003after graduation, she was
commissioned as a captain intothe United States army
(01:40):
veterinary Corps.
It was taken care of themilitary, working dogs returning
from deployment that spurred herinterest in behavior medicine.
In 2011 Dr.
Pike started a residency programunder the mentorship of dr
Deborah Horwitz, DACVB.
In October, 2015 dr pike passedthe ACBB certifying examination.
(02:03):
Dr pike is the owner of theanimal behavior welfare center
in Fairfax, Virginia, suburb ofDC where she sees referral
behavior cases.
She has a clinical instructorfor the online education system.
He training for dogs, a memberof the fear free advisory
committee and a certified animalbehavior consultant for AIAA, B
C.
(02:23):
she was recently named one ofthe top that Nerium is of
Northern Virginia by Novamagazine for the third year in a
row.
So welcome Amy.
Welcome.
Michelle.
I'll let you start thequestioning since you're the dog
trainer.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
So we want to start by just having you explain what
is a veterinary behaviorist.
How is that role different fromyour traditional general
practice that, yeah, so aveterinary behaviorist is a
specialist in behavior medicine.
So if you think about in thehuman world, we are essentially
the psychiatrists of, um, of thedog veterinary world, dog and
(03:02):
cat.
Um, but the veterinary world, sowe have all gone to veterinary
school.
We've graduated from anaccredited, um, that school.
We've done residency programs,just like a, you know, doctor,
human doctor would go to do aresidency in psychiatric
medicine and then, um, practiceas a psychiatrist.
So that's essentially what weare, um, is, you know, we do
(03:23):
that for the, our dog and catpatients.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Okay.
And what is the process?
So from the time of veterinariandecides they would like to
pursue that, how do they goabout doing it and what does
that look like?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, so there's a couple of different options in
terms of how you can do aresidency.
Um, there's what's called anontraditional, which is what I
did, where a boarded veterinarybehavior's takes you on as their
resident in their privatepractice.
And you have to do 400 cases.
You have to write three casereports, you have to publish
research in a peer reviewedjournal about something in
(03:58):
behavior medicine and you haveto uh, uh, pass a two day
examination at the end of theprocess.
So that's a non traditionalresidency, whereas a traditional
residency is done at auniversity setting.
Um, much like, um, you know,like a veterinary cardiologist
or, or someone of that naturewould go to a university, do a
three year program there and um,then do the same.
(04:22):
The case reports, the researchand passed the exam.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
So I'm just curious, how many of you there are in the
U S are there lots of vets thathave this distinction or not?
So many?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Not so many.
Um, there are now 84 veterinarybehaviors in all of North
America.
Um, and several of thoseactually have moved to other
countries.
So we have a couple in Europe,um, you know, obviously don't
practice over here.
And then we have a couple inAustralia as well, but not so
many.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
So how do we know if our vet has this distinction?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
So there are going to be letters behind the name.
So for a veterinarian, we haveDVM, which is the doctor of
veterinary medicine or a VMD ifyou've graduated from the
university of Pennsylvania.
Um, and then a veterinarybehaviorist will have the
letters D a CVB, which standsfor a diplomat of the American
college of veterinary behavior.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Interesting.
So one question I have, and Ithink a lot of times, even when
I'm working with clients and Irefer them off to have that
behaviorist, you know, I dobehavior consultations.
I'm, I'm a certified behaviorconsultant.
I'm, I don't have a master'sdegree.
I work, you know, I wascertified through the I a B, C.
so I'm always very clear with myclients.
(05:42):
You know, these are, this is myskill set, but often I have
clients that I feel verystrongly need to be seen by a
vet behaviorist.
And people will always say,well, why is that a big deal?
You know, my, my traditionalthat said that they, that they
can solve the problem.
Um, how do we convey to ourclients what is that, why is it
(06:05):
so important that of thatbehavior to be boarded?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Right?
So there are several PR, youknow, some things that may feel
comfortable with behavioralmedicine, but they haven't
undergone the, the level oftraining that we have undergone.
Um, it would be like going tosee your family practitioner for
a brain tumor.
You wouldn't want to go, youknow, have them do surgery,
right?
You're going to go to a boardedneurologist and neurosurgeon.
(06:29):
Very similar, right?
You're not, you, your generalpractitioner may dabble in
psychiatric medicine, like maybebe able to put you on Prozac.
But if that doesn't work, um,then they may be at a loss.
And that's sort of where we comeinto play is one, we take the
whole animal into account interms of is this a medical
disorder?
Cause as veterinarians we knowand treat those as well as what
(06:52):
medication, um, or productsinterventions would be best for
that patient.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Right.
I know I'm often trying toexplain to people that is as a
veterinary behaviorist you havemuch more understanding of how
to use medication, howmedications can interact with
each other and how to monitorthat animal on those
medications.
I meet clients unfortunatelywhose dogs are on very unusual
cocktails of, you know, net, youknow, prescription medication
(07:22):
and then they start kind ofgoing on the internet and adding
in natural supplements becausethey read something somewhere on
Facebook that said it was a goodidea.
And you know, I've, I've hadjust general practice vets
become very concerned becausethey don't even understand how
all these meds are interactingwith each other.
Um, and so I try to alwaysexplain, yeah,
Speaker 3 (07:46):
yeah, that's exactly what we do.
We know, we know, you know,cytochrome system, which is just
a big fancy word about how it'smetabolized and, um, we know
what interactions, druginteractions, potential or um,
you know, most common are goingto happen.
And it's just, it's one of thosethings where, you know, you
learn so much in veterinaryschool, we have to learn about
12 different species of animalsthrough veterinary school.
(08:09):
And you know, we joke that we'rebetter doctors because they only
have to learn one.
Right.
Um, and so now we know all ofthis stuff, but we haven't
really delved in, in depth into,you know, various organ systems
like the brain and the brain isan organ just like the heart.
And there are specialists forevery single organ system in the
body.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Yeah.
So does a vet behaviors or themajority of your clients, uh,
are you using medication withthem or not necessarily?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I would say the majority of our, of my patients
do get medication, um, or, and,or natural products depending on
, um, the case or the owner'swishes.
Um, mostly because what I cando, Michelle can do too, in
terms of the behaviormodification piece.
Um, we're both, you know, I ABCcertified and so we've gone
(09:01):
through that certification interms of our training and
behavior modification, um,qualifications.
And then the, as a veterinarybehaviors.
The sort of added level of whatI can do for one of her clients
is that, you know, we canprescribe the appropriate
medications to help reallydecrease intensity and frequency
of behaviors and, um, betterthe, the patient's recovery if
(09:24):
they get triggered.
So are you kind of the lastresort in a lot of cases?
Unfortunately.
Am I wish we were sort of thefirst stop along the way.
Um, and I, and much, much soonerthan a lot of these patients get
referred.
Um, but I do get told that I amthe last resort.
It's by clients.
(09:45):
They're, they're on the verge ofeuthanizing, um, if we can't
help and, and so, you know,medication sometimes, uh,
unfortunately is the lastresort.
I wish it would be much soonerin the process to be honest.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
So in your practice, um, you know, always looking at
your website and it looks likeyou have a, a great team.
Um, can you share, like who,who's part of your team and what
are their roles?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah, so we have, um, in myself and another
veterinarian who's in herresidency, so she's doing a
nontraditional residency with mecurrently.
Um, we have two veterinarynurses who are, um, licensed vet
techs or LVTs, uh, one of whomactually has her specialty in,
uh, behavior as well.
So there's a that technicianspecialty in behavior, um, and
(10:32):
there are only 11 of them, soshe is one that is, she's even
smaller group.
Um, so we have the two nursesand then we have three trainers,
um, on staff as well.
So we have a gene DonaldsonAcademy graduate.
We have a CPDT, um, and CBCC K aM trainer.
And then we have, one of mytrainers is actually has a
(10:55):
bachelor's in, um, humanpsychology and has come on as
one of our dog trainers.
So it's a good team.
It's like the psychiatrist andthe psychologist and the social
worker all working together to,you know, help the patient.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Yeah.
So you can really offer a clientthe entire process.
Um, cause one thing, yeah.
The one thing that you know,that I find myself explaining to
people, um, and I'm sure you cando a much better job of doing
that is, is behaviormodification and training the
same thing?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Oh yeah.
That's, it depends on who youask, right.
What their definitions are.
So in my mind, training is morelike the obedience type stuff.
Like you do a sit, you do a staydown, et cetera.
Um, whereas behaviormodification is really focused
on changing the emotionalunderpinning of a behavior.
So instead of lunging andgrowling at strangers, cause I
(11:50):
don't like them, what should Ido instead?
And let's conditioning toactually either enjoy strangers
because they bring me chicken orcheese or whatever the case may
be, or at least be neutraltowards them.
So it's more about changing anemotional state than just
performing a cue.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Right.
You know, they, they're just sodifferent to those of us that
that work.
And we know that teaching aterrified dog to sit when he
really is just wanting to runand hide, it's not really fixing
the problem.
And it's very challenging as youknow, at times to, to try to
help people understand that.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Yeah.
I mean the training field is sounregulated as you know, so
anyone can call themselves atrainer.
Um, veterinarians can't callthemselves veterinary
behaviorist until they'reactually board certified like
myself.
Um, so even like my resident,she has to say practice limited
to behavior.
Um, she can't call herself aveterinary behaviorist cause
she's not boarded yet, butanyone can call themselves a
(12:51):
trainer.
Anyone can call themselves aquote.
Behaviorist.
Um, and abs have absolutely nobackground knowledge in the
actual subject.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
I know it's very frustrating.
I know myself, I've worked outfor 20 years and, and I'll even
correct people, they'll say, oryou're behaviorist.
And I'm like, no, I'm not abehaviorist behavior consultant.
And there's, to me a very bigdifference.
Yeah.
And I've always deferred that.
Yeah.
And for years, you know, I've,I've had great partnerships with
a couple of different vetbehaviorists and in the vets
(13:22):
that I work with have goodrelationships.
So we have this really goodprotocol of trying to work as a
team.
But there is such a need I thinkfor trainers and people who are
even behaviorists to rely moreheavily on doctors such as
yourself that you're reallyhelping us do our jobs better,
(13:44):
but we have to defer to you andseek out more direction and not
take on these very dangerouscases.
I'll have trainers share with mesome of the cases that they'll
take on.
I mean, it's terrifying becausepeople's safety's at risk, the
dog is at risk and there seemsto still be, as you said,
(14:05):
because it's unregulatedindustry, it's kind of a wild
West of training sometimes andscary from the dog owners
standpoint.
How does, how does an owner knowthat it's time to come to see
somebody like you?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
So they may have been told by their primary care
veterinarian, they may haveapproached them and said, Hey,
you know, my dog is doing X, Y,and Z and they're the primary
care veterinarian may referthem.
I often get trainer referrals,um, from trainers who know that
this goes beyond their skillsetor that the animal's going to
need medication before theyactually can truly learn.
(14:45):
And so, um, those are all greatways is talk to professionals in
, um, in the field.
But if your pet is, you know,anxious or fearful or showing
any sort of aggression becausethe majority of those STEM from
fear, um, which we can help withand that is definitely the time
to seek out, um, a qualifiedprofessional.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
So in your experience or our topic today is dogged to
human aggression, how prevalentis that in your practice?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
It is the number one C.
um, I'm, I have a very skewedview obviously in terms of
prevalence in the greatercommunity, but I do think it's a
big issue.
Um, you know, we live in DC,Northern Virginia.
It's very, very crowded here inboth people and very dog
friendly.
But, um, we see a lot of dogswith a dog to human aggression,
(15:38):
whether it be towards their owncore, um, strangers.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
So when you look at a client coming in, um, you know,
how, how bad does it typicallyhave to get before the average
person will even say this isaggression.
Some people, as you know, theykind of miss, Oh, he's just so
happy, gets over excited.
Um, and they start labeling howdo we help people understand?
(16:05):
And maybe you can help us toclarify, you know, what falls
into that category of this isaggressive behavior.
It's not just reactivity, whichis another big word that gets
thrown around, right?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Right.
I mean, I always tell people ifthe dog dog or cat is trying to
increase distance betweenwhatever they find scary, that's
aggression.
However they do it, whether it'dbe barking, growling, snarling,
snapping, eating.
Some people don't want to, um,classify it as aggression.
Lay people don't want toclassify it as aggression until
(16:37):
there's an actual bite.
But any strategy to try and getrid of your, um, your fear is,
is potentially an aggressivestrategy.
Um, whether that be could turninto a bite depending on the
circumstances.
And so, you know, sooner ratherthan later, people need to be
coming in.
Um, cause you definitely don'twant to let it get to the point
(16:59):
where the dog feels like theyhave to use biting as a
strategy.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
So a lot of what the, the average pet owners, EAs as,
Oh my, my puppies, this, thesejust shy.
Um, you know, he's slow to warmup.
And so some of those subtlebehaviors are really, really
falling more into this is a dogwho's trying to communicate with
(17:25):
you very clearly.
I do not feel good about what'sgoing on right now.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Beckley and, and fear is a precursor to outright
aggression because that's whereit stems from.
That's the emotion that'sdriving that behavior.
And we do see a lot of dogs thatcome in around age two or three,
which is behavioral maturity.
That's when dogs become adults.
And they may have startedshowing some aggression,
barking, Starling, et cetera.
(17:53):
But come to find out, you know,in the first three years of
their life, they were very, veryfearful.
And now that they're an adult,they feel more confident.
They know that aggression worksas a behavioral strategy.
And so the owners are startingto see this.
So if we can intervene, youknow, early on when that puppy
is fearful, then we can helpthat dog grow into a, you know,
(18:15):
uh, you know, good member of oursociety because they are not
scared anymore.
Kim (18:20):
And is there anything in particular you have as advice to
the dog owner?
Not the professional but the dogowner about what to do with
their dog, their puppy when theyfirst get it or in the first
several weeks and months to tryto avoid some of these behaviors
later on?
Speaker 3 (18:40):
It's, well, it's really important that we have,
um, good socialization duringthat early formative until about
16 weeks of age.
That's when, um, dogs are morereceptive to new people, new
places, new things, and theyneed to be exposed to those
things in a very positivefashion.
If, if they don't see a ladywearing a hat with an umbrella
(19:01):
up til six weeks, 16 weeks ofage, when they see it at age
one, they're going to be like,wait, what is this crazy thing?
Right?
So getting enrolled in puppysocialization classes, um, you
know, going to puppy play datesthat your veterinary, your
veterinary hospital, those typesof things are very, very
important during that really keyperiod of time.
And then if you see any sort offear addressing that sooner
(19:25):
rather than later because again,that fear could potentially, um,
migrate to aggression later on.
Kim (19:31):
And when somebody would first see that.
Is it somebody, is it a rewardbased trainer?
Is it somebody like Michelle, abehavior consultant?
Or is it a veterinary behavior?
Is that somebody should startwith?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I would say it depends on the, the extent of
the fear.
So, um, you know, definitelywanna use positive reinforcement
based training regardless.
And so good.
So puppy socialization classescan be run by, um, you know,
positive reinforcement trainers.
But if we're seeing that fear,the likelihood is that we need
to go to that next step.
And we need to go to a behaviorconsultant, if not a veterinary
(20:08):
behaviorist, um, to intervene.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Many, many years ago I was called to a client's home.
Um, they just gotten a puppy andthis puppy, they said, well,
we're really concerned abouthim.
He's not like any of our otherdogs.
And I showed up at their home.
This puppy had probably theworst resource guarding.
I've never seen that in a puppy,a 10 week old puppy.
(20:34):
And they were afraid.
They were afraid of him.
I've never had a puppy make thehair on the back of my neck
stand up.
And you know, I immediately saidto them, this is so severe that
you need to immediately go toour local vet behaviorist.
And they know, we think if wejust socialize him and if we do
(20:56):
all these things.
And, and it was really hard newsfor me to give them because
nobody wants to hear that abouttheir puppy that they just
brought home.
And when they shared hisbackground, there were probably
contributing factors to where hecame from, how he had been
welcomed and raised.
Um, but it was a very scarysituation.
Long story short, they didn'tget to the vet behaviorist until
(21:17):
he was almost two and he wasused to youth and I did three
after his fourth very severebite.
Um, and it was heartbreaking.
And you know, trying to changepeople's mindset about even
puppies can need immediateintervention.
Um, the best chance, the bestchance they have is when they're
(21:38):
10 weeks old.
If you identify something reallykind of going sideways,
absolutely.
Um, it, but it's hard news togive someone
Speaker 3 (21:47):
cause nobody wants to, you know, think about
putting their puppy on Prozac oryou know, whatever other
medication.
But honestly that's the besttime to do it because there are
so neurologically malleable likewe can, you know, manipulate
those neurons to help them.
So much so that at age threewe're not euthanizing for this
behavior.
Like we, we have potential.
(22:08):
The sooner we get in there andhelp.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Oh, so one question I have for pet people, cause this
comes up a lot, but I can't takemy puppy out and socialize them.
My vet said they have to befully vaccinated, which puts
them at four to five months ofage.
Right?
So how do we, maybe older.
So how do we, I mean, I knowwhat I say to people, I start
(22:30):
pulling down all the EVMA, youknow, flyers.
Um, what, how do we help peopleunderstand you have a better
chance of, of treating kennelcough than you do of, of fixing
inadequate socialization.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Absolutely.
So it used to be thatveterinarians, and I mean I've
been in this field long enoughthat I was one of those
veterinarians that said youcan't take your puppy anywhere
until it's fully vaccinatedbecause of the risk of diseases
like parvo and distemper.
But[inaudible] socialization islike vaccinating for future
behavior problems.
That's what I think about it as.
(23:04):
And the risk of those viruses isvery, very low, if not next to
zero in a very well runsocialization class.
So there was actually a studydone out of UC Davis looking at
the risk of parvo virus, um, inpuppies that didn't intend
socialization.
And those that did and there wasabsolutely zero risk across the
(23:25):
puppies that attended puppysocialization classes.
So we use descend that killthose diseases.
Puppies have to have been in thehousehold long enough that if
they have broken with any sortof, you know, vomiting or
diarrhea or upper respiratoryissues, we will have caught it
by then.
Um, and no puppy has allowed inclass if they're feeling ill and
(23:45):
owners have to sign up.
You know, for like our class,the owners have to sign a
contract that says if my puppyis ill, I will not bring them in
until they've been checked outby my veterinarian.
So it's very important that weget those puppies out and about,
you know, you're not taking themto dog parks where you don't
know the, the vaccine.
Three of the dogs that attendthere, you're going to class
where other puppy ownersresponsible puppy owners are
(24:08):
getting their pups vaccinated.
They're coming from, you know,reputable sources and they're,
see they're seeking veterinarycare if they have any issues.
So it's really, really importantthat we just get rid of that
myth of don't take them anywherecause it's, it's key.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
I used to get a lot of kickback in my puppy class.
It was a four week, likestraight play structured group.
But I made people commit toduring that four weeks they
would not go to daycare withtheir puppy.
They wouldn't go to the groomer,they wouldn't go to a dog park.
They would just play in cleanenvironments like their backyard
and have people come to youryard and play, but then don't
(24:45):
have a dog park dog come to yourhouse and play.
Right.
Just for just for four weeks.
And I, and I, I didn't feel itwas unreasonable because we give
the puppies the much neededsocialization and we minimize
the risk.
Um, but it's so important forpeople to understand.
Um, you know, you can, you cantreat them for some vomiting and
(25:07):
diarrhea and those did parvo.
It is very dangerous.
Yes.
If a puppy gets it, but it's alifetime of horrible stuff if
they're not socialized.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Absolutely.
Yep.
I think it's worse.
I do too.
I'd rather treat parvo.
Yeah.
Kim (25:25):
I'm curious and I know exactly what ma Michelle and my
view is, but I'd love to hearfrom your point of view, why
does a dog owner want to usereward based training versus
shock collars and choke collarsand prong collars?
What, what do you see and what'syour reasoning for recommending
(25:47):
reward based training?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Um, I mean, there's so many reasons why, but the
first one being a better bondwith your animal.
You're, your pet wants to workwith you because you're given it
a paycheck at the end of theday.
Just like, you know, I, I likemy job but I'm not gonna come do
it without my clients paying me.
Right.
So it just is that bond and, um,facilitates a very, very nice
(26:11):
one step where is punishment?
Um, it can potentially increasefear and anxiety, which is the
last thing we obviously want todo for our pets.
But it can ruin thatrelationship because the dog
doesn't trust you and, um, isafraid that, you know, you're
gonna use these, um, tools onthem.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
Absolutely.
What is your thought?
You know, it's very becomingmore popular here in Michigan
where I live, but a lot ofpeople get their puppy and they
want to ship them off tobootcamp four for three to four
weeks.
And you know, I have people notas much anymore but would
contact me, Oh, can you take mypuppy for a month and just send
(26:53):
it back when it's trained.
And it comes back to what yousaid is like how can you bond
during that critical time if youdon't even have the puppy?
And then how do you know howyour puppy is truly being
handled?
Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Faculty and the majority of bootcamps, I don't
know about Michigan, but aroundhere we only have one.
Um, send away camp that'sactually positive reinforcement
based.
Um, everything else uses shockcollars and prong collar.
Yeah.
So you know that you don't seehow your puppies treated.
But I always tell, um, you know,people, I could take your dog
home and do X, Y,Z over the nexttwo weeks.
(27:28):
It's more about me training youand then you bonding with your
pup through this process.
And that's really what is keythere.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Absolutely.
Okay.
Can you speak on genetics andhow much that plays apart into
aggression and slips and whatyou treat?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
So it is nature versus nurtureand there's a combination of the
two that factor into behavior.
Um, we think about 30% ofbehavior comes from a genetic, a
genetic component of some sort.
And whether there's like anenvironmental, um, influence on
that gene or, um, it's astandalone type thing.
(28:11):
We're not entirely sure.
We haven't really teased allthose pieces out, but we do know
that like working ability, um,let's say in our, like our
military working dogs or policedogs comes from the mother's
side of, um, the gene line.
We think that fear and anxietypotentially come from the
father.
We know friendliness in catsactually comes from the fathers,
(28:34):
um, line.
And so genetics definitely canplay a role in, um, what we see
behavior wise.
And so I always tell people, ifthey have not seen the mother or
the father when they're pickingout a puppet, let's say a
breeder, um, that's a big redflag for me because I want to
know how those animals behave.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
And what would you, what would you say to somebody?
What do they want to look for?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Yeah.
So you want to look for sociableanimals, right?
Does, is the mom, you know,willing to, um, come up and
approach and interact with youas a stranger or you know, have
you interact with the puppies?
Are you, um, you know, notallowed to see the father cause
he's, you know, in a kennelsomewhere and barking and
lunging and growling at thekennel door and you're not
(29:17):
allowed to go over there.
That's, you know, obviously ahuge risk factor for potential
aggression in the future.
Um, but then in terms of thepuppy's behavior too, you wanna
look for the pup that is, um,you know, social and plays with
its, um, let our mates andapproaches you.
I always tell'em I always getowners of those, say like I
picked this puppy out cause shewas the quietest one.
(29:39):
I was like yeah, that's probablybecause she was so, yeah, you
want to approach it all.
And so she was nice and shutdown and um, that's a big red
flag, uh, right there.
So definitely one of the onesthat's the bouncy crazy puppy.
Cause that's what you want atthat age.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
And it's hard when people, whether they're working
with the rescue or shelterbreeder, people tend to go in
looking for the, for somethingthat really is not what they
want long term.
You know?
Oh he had the prettiest eyes buthe was hiding in the corner or
you know, she was the color weliked, but she was barking
(30:16):
hysterically when you came intothe room.
And people really feel thatthat's just how puppies are and
that they'll outgrow it.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Yes.
I hear that a lot.
Like why aren't they just goingto outgrow it?
And you don't outgrow behaviorslike that.
You absolutely grow into them ifnothing is done to them.
Kim (30:37):
Oh for that.
So Amy, as we're, as we'rewrapping up, uh, for, uh, the
show, can you give a top coupletips to dog owners as to, you
know, what they can, what theycan do to prevent this and then
also what they want to look forto get to you before it really
(30:59):
becomes a problem?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah.
So prevention, you know, wealready talked about the, the
socialization factor if you havea puppy, but, um, making sure
that you're only using positivereinforcement based training
because, um, we know thatpunishment, whether it hurts or
not, um, punishment can increasefear and anxiety and that can
lead to potential aggression inthe future.
(31:21):
Um, so those key pieces and thenin terms of, um, you know, what
can you do and when should you,you know, do something the
sooner this, as soon as you seeany signs of fear, anxiety, or
stress in your animal, whetherit be at the veterinary office
or a loud noise, you need to askyour veterinarian, ask a, um,
(31:43):
positive reinforcement basedtrainer or behavior consultant
or of course, ideally verybehaviors, um, to intervene so
that that doesn't get out ofhand and, um, end up in with
issues that are, you know,potentially in the euthanasia.
Kim (31:59):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for sharingyour, your wonderful wealth of
knowledge with us and, uh, thankyou for watching.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Thank you.
Thanks.
Goodbye.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
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(00:22):
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(00:44):
work with dogs.
Now let's join good dog nation.
Kim (00:50):
Hi everyone and welcome to the dog nation.
I am Kim Merritt, founder ofgood dog in a box and good dog
pro and I am here with my cohostMichelle McCarthy, of canine
homeschooling.
Hi Michelle, how are you?
Michelle (01:03):
Hi everybody.
Kim (01:04):
Good.
We have a very, very specialguest today and a really
interesting topic, dog to humanaggression and we are joined
today by Dr Amy Pike.
Hi Amy.
How are you?
Amy (01:17):
I'm good.
How are you?
Kim (01:18):
So before we get started, let me read to everybody.
Amy's very interesting bio and Ijust said to Michelle, I was
going to cut this down, but thenit's like, no, it's really
interesting and relevant, so Iwant to read the whole thing.
So dr pike graduated fromColorado state university of
veterinary medicine in 2003after graduation, she was
commissioned as a captain intothe United States army
(01:40):
veterinary Corps.
It was taken care of themilitary, working dogs returning
from deployment that spurred herinterest in behavior medicine.
In 2011 Dr.
Pike started a residency programunder the mentorship of dr
Deborah Horwitz, DACVB.
In October, 2015 dr pike passedthe ACBB certifying examination.
(02:03):
Dr pike is the owner of theanimal behavior welfare center
in Fairfax, Virginia, suburb ofDC where she sees referral
behavior cases.
She has a clinical instructorfor the online education system.
He training for dogs, a memberof the fear free advisory
committee and a certified animalbehavior consultant for AIAA, B
C.
(02:23):
she was recently named one ofthe top that Nerium is of
Northern Virginia by Novamagazine for the third year in a
row.
So welcome Amy.
Welcome.
Michelle.
I'll let you start thequestioning since you're the dog
trainer.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
So we want to start by just having you explain what
is a veterinary behaviorist.
How is that role different fromyour traditional general
practice that, yeah, so aveterinary behaviorist is a
specialist in behavior medicine.
So if you think about in thehuman world, we are essentially
the psychiatrists of, um, of thedog veterinary world, dog and
(03:02):
cat.
Um, but the veterinary world, sowe have all gone to veterinary
school.
We've graduated from anaccredited, um, that school.
We've done residency programs,just like a, you know, doctor,
human doctor would go to do aresidency in psychiatric
medicine and then, um, practiceas a psychiatrist.
So that's essentially what weare, um, is, you know, we do
(03:23):
that for the, our dog and catpatients.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Okay.
And what is the process?
So from the time of veterinariandecides they would like to
pursue that, how do they goabout doing it and what does
that look like?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, so there's a couple of different options in
terms of how you can do aresidency.
Um, there's what's called anontraditional, which is what I
did, where a boarded veterinarybehavior's takes you on as their
resident in their privatepractice.
And you have to do 400 cases.
You have to write three casereports, you have to publish
research in a peer reviewedjournal about something in
(03:58):
behavior medicine and you haveto uh, uh, pass a two day
examination at the end of theprocess.
So that's a non traditionalresidency, whereas a traditional
residency is done at auniversity setting.
Um, much like, um, you know,like a veterinary cardiologist
or, or someone of that naturewould go to a university, do a
three year program there and um,then do the same.
(04:22):
The case reports, the researchand passed the exam.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
So I'm just curious, how many of you there are in the
U S are there lots of vets thathave this distinction or not?
So many?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Not so many.
Um, there are now 84 veterinarybehaviors in all of North
America.
Um, and several of thoseactually have moved to other
countries.
So we have a couple in Europe,um, you know, obviously don't
practice over here.
And then we have a couple inAustralia as well, but not so
many.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
So how do we know if our vet has this distinction?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
So there are going to be letters behind the name.
So for a veterinarian, we haveDVM, which is the doctor of
veterinary medicine or a VMD ifyou've graduated from the
university of Pennsylvania.
Um, and then a veterinarybehaviorist will have the
letters D a CVB, which standsfor a diplomat of the American
college of veterinary behavior.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Interesting.
So one question I have, and Ithink a lot of times, even when
I'm working with clients and Irefer them off to have that
behaviorist, you know, I dobehavior consultations.
I'm, I'm a certified behaviorconsultant.
I'm, I don't have a master'sdegree.
I work, you know, I wascertified through the I a B, C.
so I'm always very clear with myclients.
(05:42):
You know, these are, this is myskill set, but often I have
clients that I feel verystrongly need to be seen by a
vet behaviorist.
And people will always say,well, why is that a big deal?
You know, my, my traditionalthat said that they, that they
can solve the problem.
Um, how do we convey to ourclients what is that, why is it
(06:05):
so important that of thatbehavior to be boarded?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Right?
So there are several PR, youknow, some things that may feel
comfortable with behavioralmedicine, but they haven't
undergone the, the level oftraining that we have undergone.
Um, it would be like going tosee your family practitioner for
a brain tumor.
You wouldn't want to go, youknow, have them do surgery,
right?
You're going to go to a boardedneurologist and neurosurgeon.
(06:29):
Very similar, right?
You're not, you, your generalpractitioner may dabble in
psychiatric medicine, like maybebe able to put you on Prozac.
But if that doesn't work, um,then they may be at a loss.
And that's sort of where we comeinto play is one, we take the
whole animal into account interms of is this a medical
disorder?
Cause as veterinarians we knowand treat those as well as what
(06:52):
medication, um, or productsinterventions would be best for
that patient.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Right.
I know I'm often trying toexplain to people that is as a
veterinary behaviorist you havemuch more understanding of how
to use medication, howmedications can interact with
each other and how to monitorthat animal on those
medications.
I meet clients unfortunatelywhose dogs are on very unusual
cocktails of, you know, net, youknow, prescription medication
(07:22):
and then they start kind ofgoing on the internet and adding
in natural supplements becausethey read something somewhere on
Facebook that said it was a goodidea.
And you know, I've, I've hadjust general practice vets
become very concerned becausethey don't even understand how
all these meds are interactingwith each other.
Um, and so I try to alwaysexplain, yeah,
Speaker 3 (07:46):
yeah, that's exactly what we do.
We know, we know, you know,cytochrome system, which is just
a big fancy word about how it'smetabolized and, um, we know
what interactions, druginteractions, potential or um,
you know, most common are goingto happen.
And it's just, it's one of thosethings where, you know, you
learn so much in veterinaryschool, we have to learn about
12 different species of animalsthrough veterinary school.
(08:09):
And you know, we joke that we'rebetter doctors because they only
have to learn one.
Right.
Um, and so now we know all ofthis stuff, but we haven't
really delved in, in depth into,you know, various organ systems
like the brain and the brain isan organ just like the heart.
And there are specialists forevery single organ system in the
body.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Yeah.
So does a vet behaviors or themajority of your clients, uh,
are you using medication withthem or not necessarily?
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I would say the majority of our, of my patients
do get medication, um, or, and,or natural products depending on
, um, the case or the owner'swishes.
Um, mostly because what I cando, Michelle can do too, in
terms of the behaviormodification piece.
Um, we're both, you know, I ABCcertified and so we've gone
(09:01):
through that certification interms of our training and
behavior modification, um,qualifications.
And then the, as a veterinarybehaviors.
The sort of added level of whatI can do for one of her clients
is that, you know, we canprescribe the appropriate
medications to help reallydecrease intensity and frequency
of behaviors and, um, betterthe, the patient's recovery if
(09:24):
they get triggered.
So are you kind of the lastresort in a lot of cases?
Unfortunately.
Am I wish we were sort of thefirst stop along the way.
Um, and I, and much, much soonerthan a lot of these patients get
referred.
Um, but I do get told that I amthe last resort.
It's by clients.
(09:45):
They're, they're on the verge ofeuthanizing, um, if we can't
help and, and so, you know,medication sometimes, uh,
unfortunately is the lastresort.
I wish it would be much soonerin the process to be honest.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
So in your practice, um, you know, always looking at
your website and it looks likeyou have a, a great team.
Um, can you share, like who,who's part of your team and what
are their roles?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah, so we have, um, in myself and another
veterinarian who's in herresidency, so she's doing a
nontraditional residency with mecurrently.
Um, we have two veterinarynurses who are, um, licensed vet
techs or LVTs, uh, one of whomactually has her specialty in,
uh, behavior as well.
So there's a that technicianspecialty in behavior, um, and
(10:32):
there are only 11 of them, soshe is one that is, she's even
smaller group.
Um, so we have the two nursesand then we have three trainers,
um, on staff as well.
So we have a gene DonaldsonAcademy graduate.
We have a CPDT, um, and CBCC K aM trainer.
And then we have, one of mytrainers is actually has a
(10:55):
bachelor's in, um, humanpsychology and has come on as
one of our dog trainers.
So it's a good team.
It's like the psychiatrist andthe psychologist and the social
worker all working together to,you know, help the patient.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Yeah.
So you can really offer a clientthe entire process.
Um, cause one thing, yeah.
The one thing that you know,that I find myself explaining to
people, um, and I'm sure you cando a much better job of doing
that is, is behaviormodification and training the
same thing?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Oh yeah.
That's, it depends on who youask, right.
What their definitions are.
So in my mind, training is morelike the obedience type stuff.
Like you do a sit, you do a staydown, et cetera.
Um, whereas behaviormodification is really focused
on changing the emotionalunderpinning of a behavior.
So instead of lunging andgrowling at strangers, cause I
(11:50):
don't like them, what should Ido instead?
And let's conditioning toactually either enjoy strangers
because they bring me chicken orcheese or whatever the case may
be, or at least be neutraltowards them.
So it's more about changing anemotional state than just
performing a cue.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Right.
You know, they, they're just sodifferent to those of us that
that work.
And we know that teaching aterrified dog to sit when he
really is just wanting to runand hide, it's not really fixing
the problem.
And it's very challenging as youknow, at times to, to try to
help people understand that.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Yeah.
I mean the training field is sounregulated as you know, so
anyone can call themselves atrainer.
Um, veterinarians can't callthemselves veterinary
behaviorist until they'reactually board certified like
myself.
Um, so even like my resident,she has to say practice limited
to behavior.
Um, she can't call herself aveterinary behaviorist cause
she's not boarded yet, butanyone can call themselves a
(12:51):
trainer.
Anyone can call themselves aquote.
Behaviorist.
Um, and abs have absolutely nobackground knowledge in the
actual subject.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
I know it's very frustrating.
I know myself, I've worked outfor 20 years and, and I'll even
correct people, they'll say, oryou're behaviorist.
And I'm like, no, I'm not abehaviorist behavior consultant.
And there's, to me a very bigdifference.
Yeah.
And I've always deferred that.
Yeah.
And for years, you know, I've,I've had great partnerships with
a couple of different vetbehaviorists and in the vets
(13:22):
that I work with have goodrelationships.
So we have this really goodprotocol of trying to work as a
team.
But there is such a need I thinkfor trainers and people who are
even behaviorists to rely moreheavily on doctors such as
yourself that you're reallyhelping us do our jobs better,
(13:44):
but we have to defer to you andseek out more direction and not
take on these very dangerouscases.
I'll have trainers share with mesome of the cases that they'll
take on.
I mean, it's terrifying becausepeople's safety's at risk, the
dog is at risk and there seemsto still be, as you said,
(14:05):
because it's unregulatedindustry, it's kind of a wild
West of training sometimes andscary from the dog owners
standpoint.
How does, how does an owner knowthat it's time to come to see
somebody like you?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
So they may have been told by their primary care
veterinarian, they may haveapproached them and said, Hey,
you know, my dog is doing X, Y,and Z and they're the primary
care veterinarian may referthem.
I often get trainer referrals,um, from trainers who know that
this goes beyond their skillsetor that the animal's going to
need medication before theyactually can truly learn.
(14:45):
And so, um, those are all greatways is talk to professionals in
, um, in the field.
But if your pet is, you know,anxious or fearful or showing
any sort of aggression becausethe majority of those STEM from
fear, um, which we can help withand that is definitely the time
to seek out, um, a qualifiedprofessional.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
So in your experience or our topic today is dogged to
human aggression, how prevalentis that in your practice?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
It is the number one C.
um, I'm, I have a very skewedview obviously in terms of
prevalence in the greatercommunity, but I do think it's a
big issue.
Um, you know, we live in DC,Northern Virginia.
It's very, very crowded here inboth people and very dog
friendly.
But, um, we see a lot of dogswith a dog to human aggression,
(15:38):
whether it be towards their owncore, um, strangers.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
So when you look at a client coming in, um, you know,
how, how bad does it typicallyhave to get before the average
person will even say this isaggression.
Some people, as you know, theykind of miss, Oh, he's just so
happy, gets over excited.
Um, and they start labeling howdo we help people understand?
(16:05):
And maybe you can help us toclarify, you know, what falls
into that category of this isaggressive behavior.
It's not just reactivity, whichis another big word that gets
thrown around, right?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Right.
I mean, I always tell people ifthe dog dog or cat is trying to
increase distance betweenwhatever they find scary, that's
aggression.
However they do it, whether it'dbe barking, growling, snarling,
snapping, eating.
Some people don't want to, um,classify it as aggression.
Lay people don't want toclassify it as aggression until
(16:37):
there's an actual bite.
But any strategy to try and getrid of your, um, your fear is,
is potentially an aggressivestrategy.
Um, whether that be could turninto a bite depending on the
circumstances.
And so, you know, sooner ratherthan later, people need to be
coming in.
Um, cause you definitely don'twant to let it get to the point
(16:59):
where the dog feels like theyhave to use biting as a
strategy.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
So a lot of what the, the average pet owners, EAs as,
Oh my, my puppies, this, thesejust shy.
Um, you know, he's slow to warmup.
And so some of those subtlebehaviors are really, really
falling more into this is a dogwho's trying to communicate with
(17:25):
you very clearly.
I do not feel good about what'sgoing on right now.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Beckley and, and fear is a precursor to outright
aggression because that's whereit stems from.
That's the emotion that'sdriving that behavior.
And we do see a lot of dogs thatcome in around age two or three,
which is behavioral maturity.
That's when dogs become adults.
And they may have startedshowing some aggression,
barking, Starling, et cetera.
(17:53):
But come to find out, you know,in the first three years of
their life, they were very, veryfearful.
And now that they're an adult,they feel more confident.
They know that aggression worksas a behavioral strategy.
And so the owners are startingto see this.
So if we can intervene, youknow, early on when that puppy
is fearful, then we can helpthat dog grow into a, you know,
(18:15):
uh, you know, good member of oursociety because they are not
scared anymore.
Kim (18:20):
And is there anything in particular you have as advice to
the dog owner?
Not the professional but the dogowner about what to do with
their dog, their puppy when theyfirst get it or in the first
several weeks and months to tryto avoid some of these behaviors
later on?
Speaker 3 (18:40):
It's, well, it's really important that we have,
um, good socialization duringthat early formative until about
16 weeks of age.
That's when, um, dogs are morereceptive to new people, new
places, new things, and theyneed to be exposed to those
things in a very positivefashion.
If, if they don't see a ladywearing a hat with an umbrella
(19:01):
up til six weeks, 16 weeks ofage, when they see it at age
one, they're going to be like,wait, what is this crazy thing?
Right?
So getting enrolled in puppysocialization classes, um, you
know, going to puppy play datesthat your veterinary, your
veterinary hospital, those typesof things are very, very
important during that really keyperiod of time.
And then if you see any sort offear addressing that sooner
(19:25):
rather than later because again,that fear could potentially, um,
migrate to aggression later on.
Kim (19:31):
And when somebody would first see that.
Is it somebody, is it a rewardbased trainer?
Is it somebody like Michelle, abehavior consultant?
Or is it a veterinary behavior?
Is that somebody should startwith?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I would say it depends on the, the extent of
the fear.
So, um, you know, definitelywanna use positive reinforcement
based training regardless.
And so good.
So puppy socialization classescan be run by, um, you know,
positive reinforcement trainers.
But if we're seeing that fear,the likelihood is that we need
to go to that next step.
And we need to go to a behaviorconsultant, if not a veterinary
(20:08):
behaviorist, um, to intervene.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Many, many years ago I was called to a client's home.
Um, they just gotten a puppy andthis puppy, they said, well,
we're really concerned abouthim.
He's not like any of our otherdogs.
And I showed up at their home.
This puppy had probably theworst resource guarding.
I've never seen that in a puppy,a 10 week old puppy.
(20:34):
And they were afraid.
They were afraid of him.
I've never had a puppy make thehair on the back of my neck
stand up.
And you know, I immediately saidto them, this is so severe that
you need to immediately go toour local vet behaviorist.
And they know, we think if wejust socialize him and if we do
(20:56):
all these things.
And, and it was really hard newsfor me to give them because
nobody wants to hear that abouttheir puppy that they just
brought home.
And when they shared hisbackground, there were probably
contributing factors to where hecame from, how he had been
welcomed and raised.
Um, but it was a very scarysituation.
Long story short, they didn'tget to the vet behaviorist until
(21:17):
he was almost two and he wasused to youth and I did three
after his fourth very severebite.
Um, and it was heartbreaking.
And you know, trying to changepeople's mindset about even
puppies can need immediateintervention.
Um, the best chance, the bestchance they have is when they're
(21:38):
10 weeks old.
If you identify something reallykind of going sideways,
absolutely.
Um, it, but it's hard news togive someone
Speaker 3 (21:47):
cause nobody wants to, you know, think about
putting their puppy on Prozac oryou know, whatever other
medication.
But honestly that's the besttime to do it because there are
so neurologically malleable likewe can, you know, manipulate
those neurons to help them.
So much so that at age threewe're not euthanizing for this
behavior.
Like we, we have potential.
(22:08):
The sooner we get in there andhelp.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Oh, so one question I have for pet people, cause this
comes up a lot, but I can't takemy puppy out and socialize them.
My vet said they have to befully vaccinated, which puts
them at four to five months ofage.
Right?
So how do we, maybe older.
So how do we, I mean, I knowwhat I say to people, I start
(22:30):
pulling down all the EVMA, youknow, flyers.
Um, what, how do we help peopleunderstand you have a better
chance of, of treating kennelcough than you do of, of fixing
inadequate socialization.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Absolutely.
So it used to be thatveterinarians, and I mean I've
been in this field long enoughthat I was one of those
veterinarians that said youcan't take your puppy anywhere
until it's fully vaccinatedbecause of the risk of diseases
like parvo and distemper.
But[inaudible] socialization islike vaccinating for future
behavior problems.
That's what I think about it as.
(23:04):
And the risk of those viruses isvery, very low, if not next to
zero in a very well runsocialization class.
So there was actually a studydone out of UC Davis looking at
the risk of parvo virus, um, inpuppies that didn't intend
socialization.
And those that did and there wasabsolutely zero risk across the
(23:25):
puppies that attended puppysocialization classes.
So we use descend that killthose diseases.
Puppies have to have been in thehousehold long enough that if
they have broken with any sortof, you know, vomiting or
diarrhea or upper respiratoryissues, we will have caught it
by then.
Um, and no puppy has allowed inclass if they're feeling ill and
(23:45):
owners have to sign up.
You know, for like our class,the owners have to sign a
contract that says if my puppyis ill, I will not bring them in
until they've been checked outby my veterinarian.
So it's very important that weget those puppies out and about,
you know, you're not taking themto dog parks where you don't
know the, the vaccine.
Three of the dogs that attendthere, you're going to class
where other puppy ownersresponsible puppy owners are
(24:08):
getting their pups vaccinated.
They're coming from, you know,reputable sources and they're,
see they're seeking veterinarycare if they have any issues.
So it's really, really importantthat we just get rid of that
myth of don't take them anywherecause it's, it's key.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
I used to get a lot of kickback in my puppy class.
It was a four week, likestraight play structured group.
But I made people commit toduring that four weeks they
would not go to daycare withtheir puppy.
They wouldn't go to the groomer,they wouldn't go to a dog park.
They would just play in cleanenvironments like their backyard
and have people come to youryard and play, but then don't
(24:45):
have a dog park dog come to yourhouse and play.
Right.
Just for just for four weeks.
And I, and I, I didn't feel itwas unreasonable because we give
the puppies the much neededsocialization and we minimize
the risk.
Um, but it's so important forpeople to understand.
Um, you know, you can, you cantreat them for some vomiting and
(25:07):
diarrhea and those did parvo.
It is very dangerous.
Yes.
If a puppy gets it, but it's alifetime of horrible stuff if
they're not socialized.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Absolutely.
Yep.
I think it's worse.
I do too.
I'd rather treat parvo.
Yeah.
Kim (25:25):
I'm curious and I know exactly what ma Michelle and my
view is, but I'd love to hearfrom your point of view, why
does a dog owner want to usereward based training versus
shock collars and choke collarsand prong collars?
What, what do you see and what'syour reasoning for recommending
(25:47):
reward based training?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Um, I mean, there's so many reasons why, but the
first one being a better bondwith your animal.
You're, your pet wants to workwith you because you're given it
a paycheck at the end of theday.
Just like, you know, I, I likemy job but I'm not gonna come do
it without my clients paying me.
Right.
So it just is that bond and, um,facilitates a very, very nice
(26:11):
one step where is punishment?
Um, it can potentially increasefear and anxiety, which is the
last thing we obviously want todo for our pets.
But it can ruin thatrelationship because the dog
doesn't trust you and, um, isafraid that, you know, you're
gonna use these, um, tools onthem.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
Absolutely.
What is your thought?
You know, it's very becomingmore popular here in Michigan
where I live, but a lot ofpeople get their puppy and they
want to ship them off tobootcamp four for three to four
weeks.
And you know, I have people notas much anymore but would
contact me, Oh, can you take mypuppy for a month and just send
(26:53):
it back when it's trained.
And it comes back to what yousaid is like how can you bond
during that critical time if youdon't even have the puppy?
And then how do you know howyour puppy is truly being
handled?
Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Faculty and the majority of bootcamps, I don't
know about Michigan, but aroundhere we only have one.
Um, send away camp that'sactually positive reinforcement
based.
Um, everything else uses shockcollars and prong collar.
Yeah.
So you know that you don't seehow your puppies treated.
But I always tell, um, you know,people, I could take your dog
home and do X, Y,Z over the nexttwo weeks.
(27:28):
It's more about me training youand then you bonding with your
pup through this process.
And that's really what is keythere.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Absolutely.
Okay.
Can you speak on genetics andhow much that plays apart into
aggression and slips and whatyou treat?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
So it is nature versus nurtureand there's a combination of the
two that factor into behavior.
Um, we think about 30% ofbehavior comes from a genetic, a
genetic component of some sort.
And whether there's like anenvironmental, um, influence on
that gene or, um, it's astandalone type thing.
(28:11):
We're not entirely sure.
We haven't really teased allthose pieces out, but we do know
that like working ability, um,let's say in our, like our
military working dogs or policedogs comes from the mother's
side of, um, the gene line.
We think that fear and anxietypotentially come from the
father.
We know friendliness in catsactually comes from the fathers,
(28:34):
um, line.
And so genetics definitely canplay a role in, um, what we see
behavior wise.
And so I always tell people, ifthey have not seen the mother or
the father when they're pickingout a puppet, let's say a
breeder, um, that's a big redflag for me because I want to
know how those animals behave.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
And what would you, what would you say to somebody?
What do they want to look for?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Yeah.
So you want to look for sociableanimals, right?
Does, is the mom, you know,willing to, um, come up and
approach and interact with youas a stranger or you know, have
you interact with the puppies?
Are you, um, you know, notallowed to see the father cause
he's, you know, in a kennelsomewhere and barking and
lunging and growling at thekennel door and you're not
(29:17):
allowed to go over there.
That's, you know, obviously ahuge risk factor for potential
aggression in the future.
Um, but then in terms of thepuppy's behavior too, you wanna
look for the pup that is, um,you know, social and plays with
its, um, let our mates andapproaches you.
I always tell'em I always getowners of those, say like I
picked this puppy out cause shewas the quietest one.
(29:39):
I was like yeah, that's probablybecause she was so, yeah, you
want to approach it all.
And so she was nice and shutdown and um, that's a big red
flag, uh, right there.
So definitely one of the onesthat's the bouncy crazy puppy.
Cause that's what you want atthat age.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
And it's hard when people, whether they're working
with the rescue or shelterbreeder, people tend to go in
looking for the, for somethingthat really is not what they
want long term.
You know?
Oh he had the prettiest eyes buthe was hiding in the corner or
you know, she was the color weliked, but she was barking
(30:16):
hysterically when you came intothe room.
And people really feel thatthat's just how puppies are and
that they'll outgrow it.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Yes.
I hear that a lot.
Like why aren't they just goingto outgrow it?
And you don't outgrow behaviorslike that.
You absolutely grow into them ifnothing is done to them.
Kim (30:37):
Oh for that.
So Amy, as we're, as we'rewrapping up, uh, for, uh, the
show, can you give a top coupletips to dog owners as to, you
know, what they can, what theycan do to prevent this and then
also what they want to look forto get to you before it really
(30:59):
becomes a problem?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah.
So prevention, you know, wealready talked about the, the
socialization factor if you havea puppy, but, um, making sure
that you're only using positivereinforcement based training
because, um, we know thatpunishment, whether it hurts or
not, um, punishment can increasefear and anxiety and that can
lead to potential aggression inthe future.
(31:21):
Um, so those key pieces and thenin terms of, um, you know, what
can you do and when should you,you know, do something the
sooner this, as soon as you seeany signs of fear, anxiety, or
stress in your animal, whetherit be at the veterinary office
or a loud noise, you need to askyour veterinarian, ask a, um,
(31:43):
positive reinforcement basedtrainer or behavior consultant
or of course, ideally verybehaviors, um, to intervene so
that that doesn't get out ofhand and, um, end up in with
issues that are, you know,potentially in the euthanasia.
Kim (31:59):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for sharingyour, your wonderful wealth of
knowledge with us and, uh, thankyou for watching.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Thank you.
Thanks.
Goodbye.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
If you'd like to participate in the rest of
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