Ed Magee - Vice President for Strategic Operations at Belmont University

Ed Magee, Vice President for Strategic Operations at Belmont University, sits down with Ryan to walk through his career, discuss his experience with supply chain and logistics, and to talk about his perspective on hiring and being hired.

Connect with Ed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hadji224/

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome to the GoodFit Careers podcast where we explore perspectives on work that fits.
I'm Ryan Dickerson, your host.
Today's guest is Ed Magee.
Ed is the Vice President of Strategic Operations at Belmont University.
Ed started his career in the Marine Corps, where he served for 15 years,
enrolls ranging from navigator in an A6E intruder to weapons sensor operator on an FA-18D Hornet.

(00:28):
After the Marine Corps, Ed worked his way up to General Manager of Harley-Davidson's York Assembly Plan,
then he served as Executive Vice President of Operations for Fender Musical Instruments.
In 2022, Ed became a board member of the WD-40 Company, and in 2023, he joined Belmont.
Ed, thank you for being here.
Excited to be here, Ryan, thank you.

(00:50):
Now, glad to have you on.
So to help us build our frame of reference and get things started here,
would you tell us a little bit about the work that you do today?
Sure, I am currently the Vice President for Strategic Operations at Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee.
And it's a bit of a new and unique role, and excited to have this opportunity,

(01:10):
but a lot of the work involves working with the deans of our colleges on big initiatives and strategy work.
So, for example, we're launching a brand new medical school here at Belmont.
It's the first new medical school in Nashville in over a hundred years.
And if you can imagine startup mode, sometimes it requires a little extra help, a little extra guidance, a little extra juice.

(01:33):
I am very, very grateful for the opportunity to work with Anderson Spikert and his team,
you know, launching this incredible new asset for the Healthcare Services Community here in Nashville.
Beautiful, well said.
Ed, help us think through how you came to be.
Would you bring us back to the beginning and tell us a little bit about what you were like as a kid?

(01:53):
Sure, so originally I gripped Lafayette, Louisiana, shook the crawfish out of my boots and headed on out to the Naval Academy.
But I am the product of teachers, right?
So I think that's going to be a theme in my career choices and some of the work that I've done.
You know, teachers have a perpetual quest for learning, and there's also a, you know, just a real core component about service to community,

(02:18):
service to the next generation, and you know, just being lifelong learners.
So I would say that was core to my experience and certainly the influence from both my parents
are reflected in the work that I've continued to do over the course of my career.
Did you have a sense when you were a younger person of what you wanted to be when you grew up?
I think probably when I was 18, I just wanted to hit escape velocity and, you know, and leave Louisiana and, you know, just move on to bigger and better things.

(02:49):
And, you know, the irony is you gain an appreciation for your upgrade upbringing and, you know, you are who you are because of the folks who influence you as you grew up.
So that influence lives on.
Yeah.
So as the product of teachers, would you tell us a little bit about what your education was like?
Sure. So I went to the Naval Academy class of 1987.

(03:12):
So I was 17 years old when I arrived in July of 1983 and it was humbling.
It was overwhelming. It was exciting.
And it really led the groundwork for who I was as a person and a leader and, you know, just some of the incredible experiences that you have being a member of the military and eventually a veteran.

(03:33):
So I went on after I got my first master's degree while I was still in the Marine Corps at George Mason University.
It was a master's of public administration.
And then when I exited the military and the Marine Corps, I went to Duke University and got my MBA at the Fuqua School of Business.
So, and the education continues.
Tell me a little bit about your transition into military service from the Naval Academy.

(03:59):
Yeah. So I decided to join the Marines and there's this element of your time at the Academy at all the academies where you do what's called service selection.
So service selection happens towards the end of your senior year.
Basically, they rack and stack like every other element of graduating from a school in the military.

(04:20):
They rank you from one to whatever and then you go down the list and you select whatever military occupational specialty you want to go into.
And in this case, I was very heavily influenced by some of the people in my life, some of the Marines in my life.
And they just they just were cut from a cloth and set an example where I said,
"Oof, I really, really want to be like, you know, like him or her."

(04:43):
And in the case of some of the amazing female Marines that we had at the Naval Academy.
So that kicked off the path and, you know, 15 great years in the Marine Corps after that.
Right on and forgive my ignorance.
But when I think about the Naval Academy, I don't necessarily automatically assume that people go into the Marine Corps.
How does that work?
Yeah. So the Marine Corps is actually part of the Naval Service.

(05:04):
So the Secretary of the Navy actually is the boss to the comment on the Marine Corps and the Chief of Naval Operations.
So the Marines were in the days of sailing ships. They were essentially the security guards on the sailing ships, right?
So they sat in the snipers. They, you know, they manage all your prints.
So Marines have always been a part of the Naval Service.

(05:27):
And there's plenty of joking that goes back and forth now between the the Navy and the Marines.
We call them our drivers. They call them, you know, they call us the help.
I mean, there's always a friendly banter between the services, but we work together very closely.
And we've got a, you know, a mission that is very, very, very much intertwined.
So in terms of the service that you did provide and the work that you did within the Marine Corps,

(05:52):
I'd love to learn a little bit more about your aviation specific work. Can you bring us along in that?
I was originally thinking about just, you know, being a grunt or artillery,
interestingly. So when you start off in the Marines, all Marine officers go through
the basic school. And it's a six-month school in Quantico, Virginia.

(06:14):
Again, kind of the same deal, depending on where you graduate in the program,
you get to make your selection. So I arrived and said, "Oh, I think I'll just do artillery." And I,
you know, I was doing well in the program. And my platoon commander reached out one day and said,
"Hey, you know, you're doing well. You've tested well. What do you think about aviation,

(06:35):
Marine Craveation?" And I was like, "Ah, let's, you know, tell me more." So it was one of the
sliding glass moments where I had the platoon commander not reached out and said,
"You know, you ought to give this a shot." I don't think I would have. And I ended up, you know,
graduating, you know, top the class there. There was a slot that was available for Marine Aviation.

(06:59):
That was the start of my next 15 or so years, flying A6s and F18s.
That is awesome. And I, you know, my stereotypical view here of F18 pilots is that
that was always the destination that they always knew and to, you know, be so academically capable

(07:19):
and accomplished that you were, you're asked without even thinking about being a pilot. I mean,
that's amazing way to go, man. Yeah. I mean, I'd say it's a little bit of serendipity, a little
bit of luck and a lot of hard work, but it certainly worked out. How do you describe to people the
experience of flying or flying in some of those ultra-high-performance military aircraft? What

(07:41):
does that really like? I mean, it's a surreal experience, both from the standpoint of,
you know, just the physics of flying and what it feels like. And it's like human beings aren't
supposed to do this combined with, you know, just the mission and purpose and working together. So

(08:02):
as a, you know, bombader navigator and then a weapons sensor officer in the F18, there's just a
unique relationship that you have as aircrew. You know, and maybe that's a reinforcing theme in
all the work that I've done over my career is this combined sense of mission and purpose and working
together. It's core to how the Marine Corps operates. It's core to how aircrew operate. And,

(08:28):
you know, you got to let the ego go. You got to, you know, you've got to put yourself way, way, way
behind all the rest of the needs of the moment. And that just reinforces itself as a leadership
principle, certainly over the course of my career. But it is, you know, launching off of a carrier
insane, landing on a carrier at night, insane, you know, it's almost like an out of body experience.

(08:53):
I believe it. Before we move on to your transition to the, you know, private sector here, what did
you learn about yourself while you were, while you were serving? Well, I think I started to become
a student of culture. And, you know, that, I'll give you a bit of a personal example. So, you know,

(09:16):
growing up in Louisiana, it's a very multicultural society. And there's this term called code switching.
And it's basically, you know, hey, I can walk into a room and kind of assess the room and
objectively make everyone comfortable with me being in the room and not even thinking about it.
And it's, it's, it's a skill at some level. I think in the Marines and certainly with the

(09:39):
military experience, you're forced into rooms with very different people, with very different
experiences, with very different backgrounds. And whereas some people might feel that, you know,
code switching is a little disingenuous, what it really is is, I vehemently disagree,
it's just understanding that when you are part of a culture, you're part of a collective,

(10:02):
and you've got to step back and give up a little bit of yourself, it's really plug in and both
contemplate and just get in the mix around how do we work together in the most effective of ways.
And if people have a level of confidence in you, if they have a level of comfort in you,
then you can start to build trust. They're going to share more. You're just going to work

(10:25):
more effectively together. I think I had some of those skills, you know, just
leave growing up in Louisiana because it is so multicultural, but I started to hone those skills,
both at the Naval Academy and through my military experience and it became a skill set.
How fascinating. Tell us a little bit about the kind of winding down your service in the Marine

(10:47):
Corps and beginning to explore opportunities in the private sector. What was that like?
I'll talk about the seasons of purpose in a little bit here, but I think I was just reaching a time
frame where my wife and I had deployed, we had spent time at headquarters Marine Corps,
we were starting to grow a family and you know, it just ended up being one of those tabletop
discussions about, you know, what do you want to do when you grow up? And I've got an incredible

(11:10):
partner in life, you know, my wife, Jamelle is an attorney and you know, that gives us a degree of
flexibility and the ability to create space to take risks. And I think for any member of the
military that transition is very, very scary. And what I would tell folks in my roll ahead
headquarters Marine Corps is at some point you will tell the military no or they will tell you no.

(11:34):
So are you preparing for that no? And we started having those discussions and you know,
I knew I wanted to continue my education. I was thinking about law school or business school
and you know, the amount of time we had a family at that point. And we decided, hey, look, let's

(11:55):
let's go to business school. Let's pick one business school, you'll apply to that one school.
And if you get in, you're going to go to business school, if you don't get in, that's fine. You can
go back to flying. But we're just going to stay in the Marine Corps. And I did some visits, visited
Duke and just fell in love with the environment, fell in love with the idea of Team Fuqua. And just,

(12:16):
you know, you go to a space and a place and you meet your tribe and you say, these are the folks
that I want to hang with. And I applied to Duke and got in and then it was that conversation you
got to have like, are we really going to do this? You know, it's a risk. She had to continue working.

(12:36):
I was essentially taking two years out of my working career and it ended up being one of the
best decisions that I could have made. I'm so glad. And just looking at your educational
background, battlers of science and mathematics at the Naval Academy, then the amphibious warfare
school for the Marine Corps Academy, as well as Commandant Staff College, a master's in public

(12:58):
administration from George Mason, another certificate from Santa Clara University, and then an MBA from
Duke and finance. I mean, what a pedigree, man, way to go. Those teachers, they stick with you.
Life long learning. I mean, it was certainly part of who I am.
Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. And so you started an academia, you moved into the military service,

(13:23):
and went back to academia. What was it like to begin to consider proper full-time corporate jobs?
I think this idea of seasons of purpose is really where I'd say that was my first big
transition out of the military where I saw that cycle happening. And, you know, I essentially
do the article that I wrote Veterans Day this past year, and just talking about when you leave

(13:47):
the military, Bill Carrier from 100 coaches is the person who I got this
construct from. But he said, "You're moving from a contract of duty to a contract of commerce,
a contract of duty to a contract of commerce." And that describes this transition. And the big

(14:08):
challenge is you don't really understand your value, and a lot of times organizations don't
understand yours. So I think for me, upon reflection, the two years in business school gave me a
chance to kind of decompress from my military service, learn this new language, this new culture
of business, really invest in myself and build a network. But what I was able to do was really

(14:34):
kind of understand what excites me. It was two years where I could figure a lot of these things out.
It was fantastic. So I thought I wanted to go into consulting or banking, make the money,
do it. And what I discovered through the two years was that's making money is important.
And my wife, Jamal, would say it's very important. Of course, of course.

(14:59):
But there's an element of purpose and connection and community and culture that was also very
important for me. In the same way that when I arrived at Fuqua, it was like, "All right, these
are my people." When I walked into my first factory at Harley-Davidson, I was like,
"This is my vibe. These are my people." And having that sense of purpose and knowing that you're

(15:21):
doing good work with good people in a way that you feel is valuable to society,
it's just super, super critical. And I certainly felt that way when I walked into my first factory.
Yeah. So Marine Aviator to world-class MBA program to Harley-Davidson. And if I understand

(15:43):
correctly, you started as a process lead and manufacturing engineering. Tell me about what spoke
to you in terms of seeing the process and figuring out, "This is my tribe. These are my people. This
is the work I want to do." Yeah. So the seasons of purpose constructs as you go from purpose and
we had a real sense of purpose in the military and you move into uncertainty, it's like, "Oh,

(16:04):
what am I going to do?" And then it's a bit of ambiguity because I can do a lot of things.
And then you've got to explore. And then there's a level of discernment figuring stuff out. And
then hopefully you move back in the purpose. And then what I've found over the course of my career
is every time I do one of these transitions, you're walking through that cycle. And one of
my buddies says, "Yeah, but you can jump from discernment to uncertainty." So he describes it more of a,

(16:30):
instead of just a process with a nice circle, he's like, "It's a spoke because you can jump into
any of those places." So two things. One is, I tested out some consulting spaces. I tested out
some finance spaces and it just felt like something was missing. There were a couple things about
walking into the factory for the first time that really appealed to me. One is just the people on

(16:54):
the floor, the people who are value adders, the folks who are making and moving things in and
around the factory. And for me, there was a direct correlation between the people in the
factory and my troops. So in a squadron, you have a day job and then your flying job. And I always
gravitated towards jobs and maintenance. Why is that? Because you had a bunch of people working for

(17:16):
you. And I'm an ENTJ, big old extrovert. I love being around people. And upon reflection, what I
saw in the factory was exactly that. I had people that had to connect with, we had a mission, we had
a sense of purpose, we had this incredible brand. And just watching the motorcycles roll off of the

(17:37):
end of the assembly line, it's like, I'm a part of this bike, this product, this brand. And it's
the combination for me of just engaging with people and being a part of something that's bigger than
you. And Harley definitely fit the bill. That's awesome. I'm glad to hear it. And you spent, gosh,

(17:59):
what was it? Almost 10 years there and worked your way up to general manager of the York facility.
What was it like growing into that top role for a pretty substantial manufacturing plant?
Yeah. I mean, one, you never stop growing into those roles. It was probably the best leadership

(18:21):
laboratory that I've ever experienced. So we were, it was 2008 timeframe. Everyone remembers 2008,
Harley had lost about, I think it was around 40% of their revenue in a year. We knew we had to
restructure. And there was a lot of impact to what had been an incredible run for Harley-Davidson.
I remember one of my bosses used to say that beer, frozen pizza, and Harley-Davidson,

(18:46):
our recession proof. And then what we found out in 2008 was that beer and frozen pizza are
actually recession proof. So, you know, we had some fixing to do. And what happens is when
companies grow, they tend to specialize. And when you don't think through the business cycle,

(19:07):
sometimes you can get a little lazy with decisions and investments. And all of that stuff gets
reckoned when the business cycle starts in the other direction. So we had to make some hard
decisions about the factories. We had to make some hard decisions about the business. And
certainly our York facility was, I mean, that's where all of our bread and butter motorcycles get

(19:27):
made. So it was critical to the success of the motor company. So the role was incredibly challenging.
I was the guy prior to walking in as general manager who was searching for the alternative
site. So part of what we did was we had to do a kind of a make-by analysis to say,
do we want to invest in this existing factor or do we want to build a new one? So me and a small

(19:51):
team, we developed what we call the location agnostic solution. And we went talking to, you know,
to governors and economic development folks all over the US during that period saying,
hey, look, we love to move a factory here into your community. And if you could imagine,
you were met with a lot of welcoming arms by saying, hey, I want to move a thousand jobs into

(20:14):
your community. And oh, by the way, we've got this incredible American brand. So interestingly,
we ended up focusing on two final sites, one in Shelbyville, Kentucky, and one in Shelbyville,
Tennessee. It's like, huh, why'd that happen? But more importantly, we were working with the,
we were going through negotiations at the time and making a decision about this big transformation.

(20:38):
And it's hard. The community had experienced the departure of Caterpillar about four years prior to.
And I think that weighed heavily on the membership, you know, about keeping the work in York. And
that was definitely a theme during that period. But we had two paths that we can go down. And I

(21:00):
think it was like November, December, the union voted 89% of the membership said, yes, we want to
keep the work in York knowing that we would be cutting the factory in half. And then somebody had
to go in and do the work. Right. So that was like one of those moments. I mean, I think my boss asked
all the plant managers at the time, all right, who wants to go do this? And it was, you know,

(21:22):
the classic cartoon where everybody kind of steps backward. And it's like, all right,
time to go send in the Marines there. So when in doubt, when in doubt, and you know, again,
whether it was Serendepity or I was where I needed to be at the time I needed to be,
I raised my hand and went into the factory really not knowing how much work it was going to take to

(21:48):
get it done. So, you know, long road to a short house here, we did the work and we went from almost
shutting the factory down in 2008, 2009 to winning industry best plants in 2013. So it was the most
incredible journey for the factory was an incredible journey for me. And I got to go back and visit the
factory. A few months ago, a decade after the transformation and just it was the best feeling ever.

(22:14):
I bet that was awesome. And wait a seat through. Something that I'm so curious about where we appear
to be. It's the summer of 2024, we appear to be in this era where stocks only go up, right? And
I'd love to learn from your experience in an era where that wasn't necessarily the case. And so,

(22:34):
from being in an environment where we thought we had a recession proof business, to having that
harsh realization that perhaps that's not the case, and you're in a physical manufacturing
environment, you're making a tangible thing. Would you share with us some of your lessons learned or
some of the wisdom that you gained from surviving and then thriving in that experience?

(22:58):
I think at the onset, the leadership lesson is while you're growing, you have to remember the
lessons that occurred while you're shrinking. When you're shrinking, you have to remember the
lessons that you learn while you were growing. So the idea of, you know, just leaders need to
think through the business cycle. That's part one. Part two, there are employees who have lived

(23:21):
through the business cycle. And I think those are some of your most valuable assets that oftentimes
organizations, you know, whenever you do layoffs, especially in a union factory, typically you offer
early retirements, which is a, you know, it's a bit of a safer, less painful way to downsize.
What you challenge when you do that is you're losing a lot of the folks who've lived through the

(23:45):
business cycle. And what I found when I visited the factory 10 years later, some of the folks who
were still in the factory, who had lived through the business cycle, I mean, they experienced COVID,
they went, I mean, supply chain disruptions, all the rest of the craziness, because they understood

(24:05):
the previous challenges and the low points before they became what, you know, we kind of dubbed the
cultural amplifiers, right? So they were the folks who everyone in the organization knew and trusted.
And when times are bad, sometimes you have to have folks in your organization that just acknowledge
that times are bad. They also need to speak to the fact that in the history of our motor company,

(24:30):
we've been through this before. All right, we've lived through these challenges before.
And so now it's an obligation for us to do our part at this time, right? So it was so unique in
Harley-Davidson, we did this thing, you know, because about a year or two into it, we were like,
all right, we got to motivate the factory. We've been living through all these layoffs. What can
we do to really reconnect to the brand, to the motorcycles, to the history? And we came up with

(24:57):
this crazy idea called wrench and ride. So we met these guys who built, they rebuilt antique motorcycles.
And we took a basically a diagonal slice of the factory, engineering, HR, some union leadership,
and we went out and for three days, we rode all of these old motorcycles, 1937 to 1961. There was only

(25:26):
one motorcycle, the '61 that was electric start. All the rest of the bikes were kickstart. And
if you've never kickstarted a motorcycle, it's a thing. I mean, there's a whole thing around.
So you had what was it, you know, from the factory, a group of very experienced riders,
but we first day, we had to learn how to kickstart these old antique bikes. So everyone kickstarted

(25:50):
the bike. And then it was not a hand clutch, which is what you would find on a modern motorcycle.
It's actually a foot clutch. And it's called toe to go. So you actually roll your foot forward to
release the clutch on these older motorcycles. And the shifting is actually on the gas tank. So
it's completely reframing how you ride a motorcycle. And what was fun was all of these

(26:19):
experienced riders, all these experienced leaders, all of these experienced, you know,
just engineers, I mean, incredibly competent. You got humbled by the amount of learning that
you had to do, because the next day, we got on the road with 13 motorcycles. And it was about,
I mean, it was crazy, because you're like, all right, are we really doing this? Everybody's
kind of looking around like, all right, here we go. There was about a mile between each of the bikes.

(26:45):
Like first day, so it was like a procession of motorcycles with an incredible amount of
distance between, because we're all like, okay, we can't get, you know, we can't get close together.
The second day, it, you know, it collapsed a little. And then by the third day, it looked like a
classic group ride. I mean, we'd gotten familiar with the bikes every time we stopped, you could

(27:06):
only go about 90 miles, we would stop, you'd have to switch motorcycles. So every stop, you'd have to
relearn a new bike. So it just forced everyone into this cycle of constant learning. And when
the bikes would break down, we'd, you know, a couple guys pull off. I mean, we would fix the
bikes on the road, right? So what we learned out of that experience is just the power of

(27:32):
storytelling and culture. I mean, the riding components were fun. The most fun that we had
into the night after we got the bikes stuck the way we'd go, you know, have dinner. And then we
would tell stories about what happened that day. And the storytelling was, you know,
Marine Corps is a storytelling culture. Harley Davidson is a storytelling culture. I don't think

(27:54):
I ever laughed so much. And you know, just, you know, it's just epic bonding through storytelling.
You know, I saw the power of storytelling. It was up front and center. The second component
that we walked away with and me and the dean and president talked about this in the way home is
like, why are we so arrogant to think that this work is the hardest thing that the company's ever

(28:18):
done? The reality is in the last 100 years, Harley Davidson employees have done incredibly hard
things over and over and over. And we're just one and a long line of folks. And it's just our
turn to do the work. So it was, you know, the storytelling piece, all right, that turned into
some interesting artifacts afterwards. But it's just like that bonding of being a part of something

(28:42):
bigger than you, the bonding of, you know, acknowledging that people in your past, in the history of
your company, your brand had gone to great lengths to ensure that this brand survived.
All of those things were just incredibly powerful reminders of when you build great
communities, great things can happen. When you build great brands that connect people to,

(29:07):
you know, to missions that are way larger than they are, it's just the best thing ever. And
those two experiences were lived out over and over and over over the course of that time. So
there you go. Wow. I love that. Thank you. This may be slightly controversial, but I would love
to know if you had to pick just one. Do you have a favorite motorcycle? Yeah. So I've got a picture

(29:33):
of one of those bikes. It was a red 1937 knucklehead. And she was a bit of a, I mean, she had a couple
different parts from a couple different years. But that was everyone's favorite. And it was,
the first day when we rolled out, you know, I was talking to one of the guys on the team and

(29:56):
a bike rolls up behind me and I was like, Oh, wow, we got a modern motorcycle here. And I turned
around and it was this 1937 knucklehead. And it just, it was, I think the bike's name was Stanley.
It just rolled up and it just like, Whoa. And you turn around and it's like, all right,
this is a motorcycle that was made in 1937. And it just had this, this sound that was amazing.

(30:21):
The ride was amazing. The story behind the bike was amazing. And for everyone on the ride,
everyone wanted to get on Stanley when we stopped. And so, but it was an incredible
ride to experience. And I've got a great shot from the ride. That's one of my favorite pictures. But
the bike had all of that history. It was, I mean, it reflected everything that was incredible

(30:45):
about Harley Davidson, right? The engineering at the time was innovative. It was, you know,
it endured, right? The culture endured and this product endured and its relevance endured. And
it was just like all the things that make me excited about making things as a manufacturing
guy was they're all rolled up into that bike. Awesome. Love that. So in 2014, you transitioned

(31:11):
out of Harley Davidson. Tell me a little bit about your departure and then perhaps bring us along to
the legendary fender and your experience there. Sure. So, you know, not a lot of things are going
to pull you away from Harley. And I was, you know, it was decade incredible experience. But one of
my best friends from the fifth grade, a gentleman by the name of Chuck Treadway, he was CEO of an

(31:34):
ABB company down in Memphis. And Chuck had, Chuck and I, best friend since the fifth grade,
we've been talking about working together. And he just had an amazing opportunity for me. You know,
I was, I was running one factory. It was a chance to go run 14 factories at an incredible company
like ABB. And they are easily the most global company that I've ever worked for. And they,

(31:59):
I mean, they've got their stuff together. I mean, they're incredibly well run company.
Leadership there is just unbelievably competent. It was a great experience for me. I got to go,
you know, test some new theories about some of the things that I learned with, you know,
with 14 factories instead of just one. And it was a, it was a really good experience.

(32:21):
I think the thing that was missing though was, you know, I just left making motorcycles and,
you know, I loved manufacturing and I really connected with the folks in the factories.
But when I got that call from recruiter about, you know, it was about three years into it saying,
hey, fenders got an opening. It was like, okay. So cool, iconic American brand. And they make guitars.

(32:44):
One of my mentors, when I, when I talked to him about a little bit, you know, he said, you know,
add a couple things. Number one, you got to respect the wood. And I was like, okay, that's
interesting. And I learned, right? So I moved from metal stamping and, you know, extrusion and, you know,
and really kind of predictable processes. And then we started working with this incredible

(33:05):
median that's required to make a musical instrument call wood. So anyway, that, that, that seemed
interesting and compelling. And I can talk about, you know, the, those lessons for hours. But I think
part of it was that spirit in the Marine Corps and my wife laughs about it all the time. She's like,
you know, you get a little bored after three years. You know, I got the call. I was at an

(33:27):
interesting time, an interesting inflection point. And I was really excited about growing
a company. I had done the work around shrinking. And this was a real opportunity to do some growing.
And Andy Mooney, the CEO, incredible Jim Lambert, the head of H. I mean, we just had, I mean,
Evan Jones, Tammy Van Dogg, we just had an incredible team of leaders. And that got me really, really

(33:51):
excited about this, this, this opportunity to grow. So anyway, we did a whole lot of that. I went to
Fender. It was humbling my first couple of meetings, you know, when you start talking about product
development, because they started talking about humbuckers and F holes and, you know, and all of
these terms and that weekend, my first weekend, I went to the bookstore and I bought like four

(34:12):
books on the design of guitars. And I read and I circled all of the terms that I had, I mean, I had
to go, you know, start learning this new language. And it was again, one of the most incredible
professional journeys that I've had, because our mission, while I was there, I mean, Andy was a
genius in this space. He visited Phyllis Fender at some point. And she told him a story about Leo

(34:37):
Fender. Now imagine this Leo Fender, the guy whose name is on the on the on the guitars. And what
Phyllis shared with Andy Mooney was in a reflective moment, he told her that he thought that artists
were angels and our job is to give them wings to fly. And Andy Mooney, being the wise man that he is
like, Bingo, there's your company mission, right? And I mean, what a compelling way to talk to

(35:04):
employees about what they come in to do every day. And I, I would say that seeing that manifest
itself in the company as we grew, seeing it manifest itself in the company as we had to go
through COVID. I mean, it just reinforced the idea of when you can connect employees to something
bigger than self magic happens. I mean, you tap into that pride, watch out. And it was a great journey.

(35:32):
Wow. And I would imagine the people out there, no fender for the Stratocaster or the Telecaster,
but beyond that, there are a whole range of other musical instruments that the business produces.
And if I understand correctly, even Steinway pianos are part of the Fender brand. Is that right?
Well, no, they are not. However, we've partnered with other musical instrument companies for

(35:57):
for a different type of collaboration. So at some point, I believe Steinway did a,
it was one of our bursts. We worked with MoFi. So we've worked with other companies,
because, you know, folks always ask, what are some of the commonalities between Harley Day
as an inventor and the paint job? Right. So a motorcycle gas tank is like three feet from your

(36:18):
face. That paint job is one of the most critical things that you do. It is, it is what creates
value in the eyes of the customer, the paint jobs on the guitars. And there's such an amazing
history. So Leo Fender would wait for the new cars to come out and GM would have new colors on
those cars. So most of the colors from the original Fender guitars were all from the automotive world.

(36:41):
New color would come out and we'd figure out a way to make, because I mean, think about it.
People see the new shiny cars and then they want that instrument to look like the new shiny cars.
So that's where that comes from. Yep. That's awesome. Love to have a guitar that matches your
vehicle. You know, you think about Elvis is like, oh, that'd be perfect, Ralph. It makes sense.

(37:03):
Yep.
We'll get back to the conversation shortly, but I wanted to tell you about how I can help you
find your fit. I offer one-on-one career coaching services for experienced professionals who are
preparing to find and land their next role. If you're a director, vice president, or C-suite
executive and you're ready to explore new opportunities, please go to goodfitcareers.com to apply for a

(37:27):
free consultation. I also occasionally send a newsletter which includes stories from professionals
who have found their fit, strategies, and insights that might be helpful in your job search and
content that I found particularly useful or interesting. If you'd like to learn more,
check out goodfitcareers.com and follow me on LinkedIn. Now back to the conversation.
So before we move on to your work as a board member and then your current day role at Belmont,

(37:52):
I would love to see what else we can learn from your experience going, you know, through this
wide-ranging career. In terms of manufacturing excellence, growing companies, if there are
people out there who are listening who are curious what it would be like to go from one factory to
14 or to go from metal to wood, what could you share with them that might help them do their work

(38:15):
better? So I think the magical word is becoming a student of culture. And I am a big Edgar Shine
fan. So Edgar Shine wrote this book called Organizational Leadership in Culture. I read it for the first
time when I was doing my first Masters of Green Public Administration. And in the book, Edgar Shine
says, you know, fundamentally, leaders are creators of culture. And that, I mean, I think I'm going to

(38:40):
get a tattoo that says leaders are creators of culture. Because for me and every one of my
leaders, leadership experiences, it involved culture and culture, you know, transformation or
culture change. Why is that? Because when people want to build things that are sustainable,
you have to be a student of culture, right? Because we often talk about, you know, when you fix

(39:06):
something, oftentimes there's a problem solving methodology, lean, six sigma, process characterization,
you solve the problem, you've got the fix, you figure out what root cause is. But if you don't
change people's behaviors, then you might have only fixed it one time. So we applied that thinking
certainly in the factory work that we did. So we had to become students of culture, we had to

(39:30):
understand what it was. And the way that Edgar Shine defines it is wonderful. He says, culture is
the alignment or misalignment of what people see, what people say, and then how people behave.
And a leader's role is to look for, you know, both the alignment. But what's critical is you've got
to understand where the misalignment is occurring. All right. So usually the people who are telling

(39:53):
you where the misalignment is occurring, in a factory is your early workers. And oftentimes
leaders, you know, you're so far into the future, they don't have time for it, they don't want to
hear about, you know, what folks would call resistance to change. But what I've found is taking the
time to be in the moment with an employee who's expressing a concern. What they're fundamentally

(40:18):
doing is they're pointing out a misalignment between what they see, what people say, and how
people are behaving. And, you know, that's humbling yourself to the journey. And I've got a buddy,
David Hutchins, we've been talking about, you know, this concept of, is it time to introduce love
back into this constructive work. You know, one of the things that we talked about is like,

(40:43):
the biggest expression of love is just being in the moment with an employee. What do I mean by that?
Hey, Miss Magee, I got a problem. Stop what you're doing, walk over with the employee,
put the phone in your pocket, square up, look him or her in the eye, be present with them.
Be in the moment with them. Be vulnerable and listen. And when you create those authentic

(41:08):
connections with people, at some level, that's an incredible expression of love for them and respect
for their work. And when you do that well, we came up with this concept. We called it three-way
communication. So one way communication is like a town hall, where I'm talking and you're listening
to a communication is what we're doing. So you're asking questions, is going back and forth.

(41:32):
But three-way communication occurs and I'll just use a factory setting. It's like when you take
that moment to listen and square up and be in the moment with the employee, you go out of your
business and then a day or two later, you follow up with that employee. And that just
demonstrates a couple of things. One is I took the time to care and listen. Part two is I also care

(41:56):
enough that I came back and I followed up. And I think that three-way communication piece is such
an important component of trust building and culture. That was just a fantastic lesson from the
work that we did in New York. And I try to practice that in every factor I go to. It's a square up
with the employees. Listen with be present in the moment with them. Because their concerns are

(42:23):
immediate and your concerns as a leader is typically way out into the future. So you got to be in
the moment with them and connect and that builds trust and you start building trust over time.
That's where you have license to really, really influence and change culture. So there's one of
the big lessons. Beautifully said, what a masterclass on leadership. What's it like to be a board member

(42:48):
of a company who liked WD-40? Great brand, great company, amazing culture. And I'll go back to a theme
when I met the folks. It was like, this is my tribe. These are my people. So board governance is
it's a different component of your career. It is a profession. It is a profession that you have to

(43:11):
invest in. And it's not a cookie that you get at the end of your career. You got to put in the work.
So there were just a lot of lessons that I had learned in my tenure at Fender about growing
companies, growing brands, but also just kind of the unique aspects of these long-tenured brands.
One of the quotes whenever I teach one of the classes with our executive learning center is

(43:35):
the average tenure for a company in the 1950s on the S&P 500 was 60 years. So company on average,
if they reached the S&P 500, they'd be on the S&P 500 for 60 years. Today is between 15 and 18
years. So there's an incredible amount of disruption going on with technology, with products,

(44:00):
with customer preferences. But also, there aren't a lot of companies that have been around for 50,
60, 70, 100 years. So what's the theme? This goes back to that story about the Harley-Davidson.
Employees have to innovate. You've got to go through bad times. You've got to think through
the business cycle. You've got to do all of these incredible things. But the most important thing

(44:21):
is you have to understand what is valuable in the eyes of your customers. And that oftentimes
manifests itself through storytelling. So one of the things that we do when we do our visits,
we call it the taxi driver check. So talk to the taxi driver, "Hey, I'm on the board of W40.
Are you familiar with W40?" And sometimes when you're in a country that speaks a different language,

(44:45):
they're like, "Ah." And then you go, "Blue can't make things." And they're like, "Ah, W40."
And then they launch in the stories. They launch in the stories about, "Yeah, my
daughters, and we're working on this project, and I want to teach them about it." And you start seeing
the excitement coming out in the story. And that is the gift of a brand. Great brands really,

(45:08):
your customers give you permission to be great. But they also understand what creates value in the
eyes of their customers. And for Harley Davidson, for Fender Guitars, for W40, there's an acute level
of awareness and respect for the gift that the customers have given them. And that's the power

(45:29):
being a great brand. So a lot of those things just rolled up together. And it's been one of the,
again, one of the most amazing leadership experiences with a great team.
Sure. And just speaking to the power of the brand, thinking about a water displacement product,
becoming a household brand, a well-known product in any language that's in every garage, right?

(45:50):
I mean, that is an incredible example of a beautifully built brand.
Yeah. I mean, it's over and over again. And I've seen this happen too. You know, brands will try
to extend, they move into places and spaces where, you know, resources start getting consumed because,
you know, sometimes leaders assume, well, we'll just build that, we'll buy that. And all the same

(46:15):
things that made us a great brand is going to make us successful in all these other places.
That's not always the case, right? That is not always the case. You got to try. You got to continue
to grow. You got to experiment. But you also need to know when to stop and cut bait and focus in
on what really, really makes you valuable in the eyes of your customers.
Because that's the sustainable piece of any great company.

(46:37):
Just to indulge my curiosity a little bit, what do you think goes into making those really
sustainable, high longevity, high recognition brands like Tupperware or Xerox or Kleenex that
are their own category? Like WD-40, right? It's a water displacement, but everyone associates with

(46:57):
lubricants and making everything mechanical work, right? I mean, it's its own category.
How does that happen? I think it is fundamentally solving a critical problem that your customers
have. You've got to understand and know your customers. You also have to have a product that

(47:17):
solves their problems. And then it's just the, you know, you've got to continue to create this
relationship with your customers. What we talk about all the time is like, you know, whenever I
I go visit different markets.
You know digital marketing, I always ask,
oh, what does digital marketing do?
And it's like, you know, influencers.
But what digital marketing does, it allows brands

(47:38):
to talk directly to their customers.
All right, great brands listen.
All right, there's this dialogue,
there's this conversation, and you assume,
hey, it's me getting my product out
and more people understanding what my product.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not it at all.
Great brands, when they really dive into digital marketing,
it's how do I listen to how the customer

(48:00):
is solving problems with my product or services?
And then constantly staying on the edge
of making sure that you're true to continue
and to solve that particular product for your customers.
I was at an event in Chicago, and I kind of introduced myself
and said, yeah, well, you know, duct tape and WD-40.
Duct tape is the thing that you always reach for

(48:22):
when you need something to stop moving.
WD-40 is the thing that you reach for
when you need something to start moving.
You know, so I mean, just think about the simplicity
of solving that problem for customers
over and over and over again.
That's what great brands do.
They listen, they understand the problem digit
they're trying to solve.

(48:43):
And then they do that extraordinarily well.
- Well said.
Tell us a little bit about your current job.
It seems like you've come full circle here, right?
Back to education.
So you're the vice president of strategic operations
with Belmont University.
How'd you get the job?
What do you do?
- So Greg Jones is an amazing leader.
And here's the tribe story.

(49:06):
We were on a call.
This was in 2020 timeframe.
We were on a panel together.
You know, I'm waiting my turn to speak,
drop a couple of nuggets, and then it was Greg Jones's turn.
And I was like sitting there like slack job, like,
"Geez, he's just dropping so incredibly insightful nuggets there."
Like, who is that guy?

(49:27):
So I reached out to the person, San Yien Singh
at the Coach K Center for Ethics and Leadership.
And I was like, who is that guy?
She's like, "Ah, that's Greg Jones.
"He's the Dean of the Divinity School at Duke University."
And I was like, "Hmm, all right, tribe member."
So I reached out to Greg.
We developed a friendship and, you know, he's just wise.

(49:50):
He's just a super wise human being
who sees the playing field, understands culture and people.
He knows how to listen.
He's an, I mean, just an incredible listener.
When I started contemplating, yeah, I was hitting 20 years
in corporate America, you know, it was almost 20 years
in the military and it's like, all right,
it's time to move a little closer to home.

(50:10):
We started to have this conversation.
And then my dad passed away in November
of '22.
I think for me it was that moment where, all right,
you hit escape velocity, you kind of, you kind of, you know,
departed for all kinds of these incredible experiences,

(50:30):
but it's time to move a little closer to home.
My wife and I loved Tennessee, the first tour.
We lived in Memphis.
We knew we wanted to move back to Tennessee.
And Greg Jones said, "Why don't you just come visit Belmont?"
And I came back at this event called Hope Summit.
I remember just sitting there going purpose, people,

(50:53):
wild ambition, community that we want to be in.
And I mean, there were just some intrinsic things that said,
this is the place that you need to be.
And those things get validated every day.
I walk into this, walk into the campus,
but they needed to figure out what to do with me.
And, you know, it was like, all right,
I went and interviewed for one job,

(51:14):
had a completely different job.
And then after a year here, I'm starting to figure out,
because again, you know, that Belmont's been around
for 120 years, any great culture, any long culture,
if you walk in with the solution,
they will typically reject you like a bad kidney.
You've got to learn the history, you've got to learn the people,
and then they have to welcome you in.

(51:35):
And I've found, I've always found it in really, you know,
long-tenured cultures when you ask for help.
That's one of the most powerful ways to kind of just, you know,
to learn, right?
It took about a year for me to kind of dig in
and understand where I could create the most value.
And that's where this work with the deans
is really starting to play off.

(51:56):
'Cause, I mean, I've got some perspectives around strategy
and strategic planning and operations and project management.
And in a lot of cases, as the university is facing, you know,
all the same challenges in higher ed around, you know,
this enrollment cliff and, you know,
how do we make ourselves unique and differentiated
in the community?

(52:17):
I mean, those are the conversations that I really enjoy
having with the deans, but the more important pieces,
I know how to put together strategy,
I know how to work with the teams.
You know, so it's, I'm complimenting some incredible work
and some, I mean, absolutely incredible leaders
doing work with purpose here in Nashville.
So I think for me, you know, it's like,

(52:37):
I started with teachers and I'm gonna end my career
with teachers, right?
And it's just the idea of learning and education
is just something I can get excited about every day.
- I believe I imagine the university is delighted to have you
and I believe that they're very lucky to have a leader
like you on the team there.
When we think about misconceptions

(53:01):
and perhaps inaccurate perceptions
from any of your roles, from, you know, aviation
through manufacturing, now in higher education
or even being a board member,
what do you feel like most people get wrong
about any of those roles?
- I think for military folks,
what I hear oftentimes is, you know,

(53:25):
they're good at following orders.
And while true, what they don't see
is the amount of work that goes into the training,
the preparation, the collaboration, the team building.
And there's this whole portfolio of skills
that military veterans have.
Their interesting challenge is they go from

(53:46):
contract to duty to contract of commerce,
is they need time to translate those skills
into this new culture.
So they've got to do their own level of code switching, right?
Military traditions, culture is very, very unique.
Corporate America or academia,
you've got to learn a new set of skills

(54:07):
and then create time and space for you to learn
a new language, for you to translate those skills
for the organization to understand what makes you valuable.
And I think for, especially for military veterans,
it's work that we have to do and understand, you know,
and that's why I wrote that article

(54:28):
about seasons of, seasons of purpose.
But then it's organizations giving, you know,
a little space to their veterans community,
especially if they're just coming out of the military.
You know, there's a lot of translating
and they're going to bump their heads
and there's a lot of learning that's going on,
but just make that investment
because the core leadership materials and competencies

(54:50):
that you're getting when you get a veteran,
it's second to none.
It is second to none.
So that's probably the big one.
From a manufacturing standpoint,
I think people think that it's all robots
and, you know, and pretty systems.
And at the end of the day, factory work,
it's a people business.
It is more about culture and people

(55:13):
and being in the moment as a leader with your employees
so that you can build trust.
It's the best leadership learning lab on the planet.
And I just love a factory.
I love any kind of factory.
I will stand in a factory for hours
and just watch things get made
and watch how people, you know, interact.
And I just love the people business of factory work.

(55:37):
So, and then I'm in this new chapter.
I'm learning about academics and folks go,
"Oh, academia is so different."
And while they're right,
there are things like shared governance.
I mean, there are things that are different,
but at the end of the day,
what I've found is people are people.
They want to feel that their work is valuable.
They want to know that you respect their work
and the time that they put into creating a great product.

(56:01):
And when leaders take the time to be in the moment
with the folks that they work with, good things happen.
You know, you tap into that pride, watch out.
- Love that.
You've made a couple very graceful
and very successful transitions
that many people struggle with.

(56:23):
The first that comes to mind
is your transition from service, right, to commerce.
And the second is from being an executive
to becoming a board member.
Would you first walk us through a little bit
about the advice that you'd share for fellow veterans
who are beginning to depart the service
and want someone to see the value they can bring

(56:43):
to the table and to gracefully transition
into a contract of commerce?
- So I think the first thing is just acknowledge
that there are the transactional
and then they're the relational, right?
So from a transactional standpoint,
you got to get your resume, you got to, you know,
I mean, I'm on iteration like 20 something to my resume
and I think iteration 11 of my board bio.

(57:05):
So just understand and acknowledge the fact
that you've got to get, you know,
some of these transactional pieces done.
And you want to build up your community
because the message that I tell veterans
is you do not have to do this a lot, all right?
When you disconnect from military service

(57:25):
and you're looking for purpose, you know,
and I'll speak for men.
We're guys, we don't ask for directions.
We want to, you know, I'm going to go this alone.
You've got to plug in and understand and acknowledge
whatever community that you go into
and Nashville is incredibly welcoming for veterans, right?
And when I arrived, you know, go grab a cup of coffee,

(57:48):
just go seek out and start to build your community
because your community is going to help you.
And that's what the transactional and the relational piece.
So on the relational side, it's just, you know,
you've got to create one of the big lessons that I learned
when I visited the Harley-Davidson factory
was just the idea of frameworks
and then leadership scar tissue, all right?

(58:09):
So the transition out of the military, you know,
seasons of purpose or whatever framework it is,
you know, you want to use a framework.
Purpose and certainty and beauty,
exploration, discernment, back into purpose, you know,
that's just a framework.
And what that does is just helps you to clump
and problem solve a little bit more quickly.
The second piece of this is just the leadership scar tissue.

(58:32):
And I think that's the valuable piece that you have
as a veteran who's transitioning.
What you've got to do is just learn how to tell stories
in a way that are very authentic where people understand,
all right, they've got an incredible amount of leadership
scar tissue and great leadership experiences
in these places and spaces.
Where can I put them in my organization

(58:54):
where their skills are going to be incredibly valuable?
And in national companies like track to supply,
they are incredibly good with helping their veterans
do that transition and finding their skill sets
and applying them, I mean, track supplies, amazing.
I met some great leaders there.
So it's, you don't have to do this alone.
You've got to develop a framework for the transition

(59:17):
and then work the framework.
You've got to connect and start building your community
'cause your community is going to help you out,
whether it's resume or referral.
You just don't have to do this alone.
I think that's probably the most important thing
for veterans.
- That's tremendous advice.
A lot of the people that I work with are
Vice Presidents, Executive Vice Presidents,

(59:38):
Senior Vice Presidents, Corporate Vice Presidents,
they're in C-suite positions.
And they're just about at that phase
where they want to consider being a board member.
What would you share with them in terms of,
you mentioned a board bio versus a resume.
How would you help them successfully make that transition?
- Sure.
So I think the first thing is just recognize

(59:59):
that it is a, it's a profession.
So board service is a profession.
It is not a cookie that you get at the end of your career.
It's not a reward.
You've got to invest in it from the standpoint of it being
a profession.
So what does that mean?
One of the things that I did, and it's just one path,
is I did this readiness program.

(01:00:20):
There are a number of readiness programs that are out there.
And that does a couple things.
One is you learn this new language.
So there's a language of board service.
Do you care?
Do you loyalty?
I mean, all of these terms that are very unique
to the boardroom, you've got to learn that language.
You've got to acknowledge that it is not just another job
because you're not applying,

(01:00:41):
one of the terms that NACD uses,
and we learned in the readiness program is for board service.
It's called noses and fingers out.
What does that mean?
You've got to ask questions.
You've got to push the management team.
You've got to, you've got to, you've got to
credibly challenge them in a way that makes sure

(01:01:02):
that they're making good decisions.
But it's not your job to run the company.
It's not your job to execute on any aspect of the strategy.
Your job is to provide governance and oversight.
And there are some very specific rules about this
where organizations like the National Association
of Corporate Directors,
of which I am a member of,

(01:01:22):
is a professional organization for folks who are in
the service of board work.
And they do a couple of unique things.
One is, if you're going to be an effective board member,
you've got to be very versed in the topics
that boards are talking about.
So they provide professional education.
They provide seminars and workshops and panels regularly

(01:01:43):
about those types of topics,
because once again, you've got to be a student of learning.
You've got to really invest in learning.
And the second piece is,
you've got to do some networking, right?
So it's, for the folks who are doing board service work,
you've got to have a network.
And that was, for me, the beauty of BCBR,

(01:02:04):
when I walk into a boardroom,
it's not just me and my experience.
It's me, my experience, and my network.
So if there's a board topic that I'm not familiar about,
then I can reach into my network and, you know,
and galvanize other people's experiences and learnings
and, you know, maybe resources or connections
and help the management team

(01:02:27):
to execute on the strategy.
And again, it is not to do their work.
It is to provide oversight and guidance
and represent the shareholders
in making sure that they hold true to their promises.
So it's a completely different level of leadership.
It's a completely different level of service,
but it requires investment.

(01:02:50):
It requires, you know, learning.
You get to the top of one ladder
and you realize you're at the bottom of another one.
It requires a level of, you know,
what we talk about,
what we're gonna talk about this summer at an event
are actually in a couple of weeks.
We call it CQ, right?
So it's culture quotient.
So culture quotient is the ratio of your ability

(01:03:11):
to navigate culture over, you know,
the denominator is the culture of the organization
that you're in.
So, you know, when you're new to board service,
you've got to learn the culture of the board.
When you join a new board, every board is different.
You've got to learn and navigate the culture of the board
in order to be effective.
So, you know, the idea of you being a student of culture

(01:03:34):
and understanding how to step in, how to learn, how to, you know,
how to make people comfortable with you and your capabilities
so that you can represent your shareholders
in the best possible, you know, best of possible ways.
So it's a profession.
You got to invest, you got to build your community
and, you know, don't try and do it alone.

(01:03:56):
So.
Right on.
Some common themes.
I imagine you have hired people in all sorts
of different circumstances for all kinds of different roles.
Would you teach us a little bit about your philosophy
to hiring great team members?
Yeah, so I tell you what, when I work with my recruiters,
oftentimes I'll say, hey, look, you know,

(01:04:18):
if folks have military backgrounds
or if they've been athletes in college or high school,
that gives them an advantage in the process.
Because what I like hiring is people who love being on teams.
Right?
You can be the smartest person in the room.
If you're disruptive to a team,
that's going to make you inherently less efficient,

(01:04:38):
less productive, less, less, less, less.
So I like people who understand when, you know,
just the concept of mission being more important than self.
I know folks in the military, you know,
they know how to grind it out.
They know how to put in the hours.
They, you know, they can do the work.
But I think the sustainability piece comes in building good

(01:05:01):
teams who want to be around each other.
Right?
They want to be present with each other.
So that's probably one thing that I always try
and look for as I build teams.
You know, the teamwork element is critical,
but I'll give you a quick example.
Usually in an interview, what I'll do is like,
I'll say, so I do a lot of factory work.

(01:05:23):
So time is a critical element of factory work.
So I'll say, hey, I've already read your resume,
checked out your LinkedIn.
I would love it if you could just tell me a little bit
about yourself in five minutes.
And then I write down the start time.
And if they're going 20 minutes after I said,
then that tells me they've got no concept of time.
They're, I mean, so they're little things like that

(01:05:46):
that I do in interviews, that I always did in interviews
because I think people need to be able to pitch,
you know, pitch themselves very effectively,
but they've got to understand the assignment.
And then the assignment in an interview is not to just
blab on about yourself for 20, 30, 45 minutes.
It's to make a connection with the person across the room,

(01:06:07):
to acknowledge that you've got the character
and competence to do the job well.
But also I want to sense that, hey, you're interviewing me,
right?
I want you to be thoughtful about, you know,
this team that you're joining
and that comes in the form of asking great questions
after I'm done asking mine.
So if an interview is going really well for me,

(01:06:29):
I'll be 10 minutes into it and I go,
all right, what questions do you have for me?
Right?
And that's a signal for, okay,
you've checked off all of my boxes.
Now when I understand your level of interest,
your level of, you know, of,
are you a student of learning?
Are you a student of culture?
You just, you know, the questions that get asked afterwards,

(01:06:53):
those are the deal sealers or the deal breakers for me?
Mm-hmm.
Gosh, and I love the device of adding a specific time limit.
So not just tell me about yourself,
but tell me about yourself in five minutes.
When I think about the interview coaching work that I do,
I typically am trying to get the people that I'm working with
to be able to land the plane in under two minutes, right?

(01:07:15):
And be able to say, here's where I started,
here's where I hit my stride, here's what I do now, right?
And you know, you can get that to be pretty snappy,
but trying to find a graceful way to go from 60 to 90 seconds
to a three, four, five minute description
that really puts them on their toes.
I love that, it's a great idea.
Yeah, and it also is just like time awareness

(01:07:36):
'cause in a factory, you know, every minute matters, right?
So it's like, all right, I've got five minutes.
How do I do great selling?
How do I tell my story?
And then how do I remain aware of the time
because he gave me an assignment?
People with low self awareness, yeah,
they don't recognize I just gave them an assignment, so.

(01:07:57):
Yeah, oh, of course.
I'd love that, a demonstration of work.
Just in that same scenario,
let's say someone delivers a beautiful introductory statement
in two minutes and they give you three minutes
of your time back.
What does that mean to you?
I mean, at some levels, like, all right, he's effective
because he's made his pitch in less time than I gave him.
For me, that's not a bad thing at all.

(01:08:19):
It's like, okay, he understood,
'cause what I do is I always say, I read your resume,
I checked out your LinkedIn profile, I've studied about you.
Tell, you know, give me a little bit more about yourself
so that we can start part two of the assignment.
And that's me learning a little bit about who you are,
your character and your competence.
And you wouldn't be in front of me

(01:08:39):
if we hadn't done the work already, right?
So, give him time back, hey, that, you know,
all right, that gives you more time for questions.
- And do you want that description
to be strictly business or do you wanna hear more broadly?
- Definitely not, because, you know,
when you join a great company, I mean,
I've heard this said you spend more time at work
than you do with your family, right?

(01:09:00):
Do you wanna be a part of this team?
Are you capable of putting mission in front of self?
You know, those are the other big elements
that I'm trying to get out of that conversation,
but yeah, give him time back, easy, great.
And then, you know, was it effective?
Like, that's perfect.
Let's get into the meat of the conversation now.
- I love that.

(01:09:21):
Thank you for indulging me on those.
Let's transition to accountability
and how we think about managing performance.
Can you tell us a little bit about your philosophy
on ensuring accountability for your teams?
- So, I think one of the, so you gotta be able to measure it
is one of the big things.

(01:09:41):
So, there's a process, and I always work,
trying to work very closely with my HR processes around,
you know, just feedback and, you know,
the overall performance management of a team.
And to me, it always starts with the team working
to identify what those key, you know,

(01:10:02):
either KPIs, okay ours, whatever you're using.
So, the team works together to figure out,
what are the key things that we need to do?
Part two is the team spends time prioritizing those things
because what I found in a lot of cases
and certainly with some of the advice
that I'm giving here now, you know,
what will happen oftentimes is,

(01:10:25):
and I'll give a college example.
So, you've got these departments within a college,
everyone has their list of, you know,
of headcount or resources that they need,
but what's missing oftentimes is, you know, folks,
you know, leaders will go, all right, what do you need?
Everyone will give them the list of what they need.
And then that leader has to go back

(01:10:45):
and figure out the priorities and what's important.
So, what I always try to do with my teams is I go, all right,
tell me what you need, but you guys need to work together
and then tell me what your priorities are.
So, tell me what your priorities are
from an investment standpoint.
Tell me what your priorities are
from a headcount standpoint.
But the team has to do that together.

(01:11:06):
So, it's not just this function, this function, this function,
but then I get a prioritized list from all of the functions.
And that helps me to say,
this is what's important for my organization.
So, that's a lot of the coaching that I'm doing
with some of the, you know, some of the folks,
some of the leaders that I'm working with is,
you skip a step when you try and do a budget

(01:11:26):
and just go, tell me what you need.
'Cause then you've got to be the bad guy.
(laughs)
You've got to tell people now, so now,
here's what you have to spend.
You all tell me what you need after you prioritize
what's important for the organization.
So, that kind of, you know, we,
and the fact we would call it flippin' to tortilla, right?

(01:11:46):
So, I'm throwing that monkey back at you
and saying, give me your, you've got to work together
so that I can understand what are the priorities
for the organization.
So, does that make sense?
- It does, it makes a ton of sense.
And what an elegant way to layer on that additional
responsibility, just like with the,

(01:12:07):
tell me about yourself in five minutes, right?
Laring on that, tell me about what you need
after you figured out your priorities is so simple.
It's so graceful and it really puts us,
everybody in the same side of the table
addressing the problem as opposed to you being the bad guy
and them saying, I need this.
- And I think where that comes from,

(01:12:28):
it's just in manufacturing.
If I wait till the end of the assembly line
to identify a problem, I lose my opportunity to fix it
before it hits the end of the assembly line, right?
So, when I think about the budgeting process,
I got to deliver a budget, but if I'm spending all my time,
you know, with the defects, i.e., I'm spending more,
I'm asking for more headcount and inevitably,
when you ask people, what do they need, what do they do?

(01:12:51):
They pad their needs. (laughs)
They're gonna pad their needs like, oh,
I'm gonna be six out, I'm gonna head to the bed.
So, when everybody in your organization is hedging the bed,
you're gonna blow your budget.
So, I was going, here's where we have to spend.
You guys figure out amongst yourselves and do your priorities
and then come back to me with a prioritized plan
for the organization.
Bam.
- Yeah.

(01:13:12):
Mm, love that.
Now, let's say things are not going so well.
And let's say that you've got a team,
they've come back to you with their priorities
and their needs and they're not delivering.
What do you do?
- So, in the factory, we would always,
the way that we articulated that was, I do, we do, you do.
Okay?
So, especially if it's the first time we're doing something,

(01:13:33):
I will show you what good looks like.
And what I, (laughs)
the way that I would characterize it as say,
I'm gonna show up with the Christmas tree,
I'm gonna let you hang ornaments, right?
So, the first time I want to do something new,
we're gonna, I'm gonna work on what I need as a product
or as an output from the process.
And I'm gonna do it first and show you what good looks like.

(01:13:55):
Part two is, I'm gonna do it with you.
So, then we're gonna work on it together, right?
So, back to part one, we're gonna quit.
Benchmarking is a very effective way
to kind of figure out what good looks like.
So, I think that's an important part of the process.
Go benchmark before you get to figure it out.
The we do is we're gonna work on this together.
And then the you do is, all right,
now you gotta do it on your own.
So, I would always try and work with my folks,

(01:14:19):
especially when we're doing something new,
let's go benchmark together and understand what good looks like,
then let's work on it together and then you have to own it.
And if someone is not owning it at the end,
then I know I haven't put in the investment
to make sure that they're successful.
The other thing that I would always tell my teams is
you wanna communicate, you wanna educate,

(01:14:40):
then you wanna hold people accountable, all right?
In that order, you've gotta communicate clearly
what your objective is.
The education part, we do, working together.
So, you've gotta educate, make sure they understand the process.
And then you hold them accountable,
because what I find a lot of times in organizations,
when people fail at something, the reaction is like,
"Ah, you've done something wrong."

(01:15:00):
And what I always challenge my leaders with is like,
"All right, step back."
Did you clearly communicate the expectation?
Did you work to make sure that they were educated
and they did the process?
And then did they fail?
But don't come to me telling me
you wanna hold folks accountable.
If you hadn't put in the work to make sure
that they're gonna be successful.
And I think that's the leadership responsibility

(01:15:22):
that sometimes folks miss when they talk about accountability.
And also the approach to learning and manufacturing
sounds a little bit like the approach to learning in medicine.
Watch one, do one, teach one.
It is often how, you know, folks are trained in residency.
As we wind the conversation to a close
and we begin to land the plane here,
would you tell me a little bit about what you're excited about

(01:15:43):
for the future in a macro sense?
- I've got children now, right?
And I look at the world that they get to operate in
and it's certainly different than the world that I grew up in.
I think we're hitting a tipping point
about technology and human beings.
So, you know, Facebook, social media,

(01:16:06):
they were supposed to solve all the world's problems
and bring the world together.
And what we're seeing with our students
and certainly through the isolation of COVID
that the exact opposite is happening.
But I think we're reaching a tipping point
and what gives me hope is that at the end of the day,
it's that human connection.
You don't have to do this alone.
It is the time that you spend outside of social media,

(01:16:29):
being in the moment with other human beings
that people are starting to say,
that is what is important, all right?
So it's, you know, my daughter just left.
She's at the University of San Francisco
majoring in hospitality management.
She's got her summer internship
at the Hollywood Bowl this summer that she hustled
and she, you know, really proud of her there.

(01:16:52):
She's headed to a bottle rock this summer.
That was her Christmas present.
She and one of her friends who headed to bottle rock
up in Napa, great concert,
and then she's gonna do her summer.
And the coolest thing, right?
You know, she left, it was early in the morning.
She gave me a hug.
I'm the Marine dad, right?
So it's like, give the hug, pat on the back,

(01:17:13):
go on a bunch of mission.
And she gave me a hug and she didn't let go.
And then like, you know, my body language just went from,
you know, hug to up.
And then it was like, my child is asking me
to be in the moment with them.
And then it was like, all right, let's hug it out, right?
So it was like, I'm gonna be here with,

(01:17:34):
I think, as Americans, we need that.
As leaders, we have to acknowledge and do that more.
And I think people are fed up with pretending
that real life happens online.
And when that happens and this community at Delmont
is incredible at just being in the moment

(01:17:55):
and just, you know, our students want us to be present.
And it's our obligation to be present
because that's what matters.
So there's my hope.
- Indeed.
- I love that.
Is there anything that you'd like to promote
or recommend for the audience before we call it a day?

(01:18:18):
- Yeah, I think it's just like,
how do you continue to be a lifelong learner?
I think for me, that has been what's allowed me
to make these transitions.
It's, you know, it's core to what I do.
Be a lifelong learner and build community
because your community, whether it's, you know,
board work or within your particular industry,

(01:18:38):
you're gonna solve more problems
in a more efficient manner when you can do it
and, you know, learning from others and their mistakes.
The other piece is probably that frame, you know,
frameworks and leadership scar tissue is you've got
to contemplate yourself, you've got to contemplate
the moment, you've got to contemplate whatever challenge
you're in by asking yourself the question,

(01:19:00):
do I have a good framework for solving this problem?
If I don't, you know, I need another one.
And then what's the leadership scar tissue in the room?
Right? It's not just me as a leader.
I've got other folks who are out there
who've had incredible experiences.
So how do we quickly ascertain, you know,
the best way out of this particular problem

(01:19:22):
through the lens of a solid framework
and through the collective wisdom and experiences
and wins and failures of the team?
And that's a lifelong lesson that's worked for me.
And I think that's, you know, great advice,
especially when you're in a period of transition.
What a beautiful note to end on.
Ed, thank you so very much for being present with me

(01:19:44):
and sharing your stories with all of us.
I'm so grateful.
- Awesome, well, I enjoyed it, Ryan.
And the work that you're doing is incredible.
Keep doing it.
- Thank you very much.
Our next episode is with Sierra Smith,
president of upright labs and Neatoscan.
- The hardest moments in either life or in your career

(01:20:05):
are probably gonna end up being the best ones.
Try to stay positive, try to stay resilient.
- If you enjoyed this episode,
make sure to subscribe for new episodes,
leave a review and tell a friend.
Good Fit Careers is hosted by me, Ryan Dickerson,
and is produced and edited by Melo-Vox Productions.
Marketing is by StoryAngled,
and our theme music is by Surftronica

(01:20:27):
with additional music from Andrew Espronceda.
I'd like to express my gratitude to all of our guests
for sharing their time, stories, and perspectives with us.
And finally, thank you to all of our listeners.
If you have any recommendations on future guests,
questions, or comments, please send us an email
at [e-mail].
(upbeat music)