March 20, 2025 • 36 mins
In episode 192, Coffey talks with Shawn Johnson about creating multigenerational inclusive and productive workplaces.
They discuss the age ranges and characteristics of different generations in today's workforce; how parenting styles and historical events shape generational perspectives; the evolution of generational values over time; ways different generations view leadership and meaningful work; strategies for creating environments where multiple generations can collaborate effectively; the importance of balancing experienced wisdom with fresh perspectives.
Good Morning, HR is brought to you by Imperative—Bulletproof Background Checks. For more information about our commitment to quality and excellent customer service, visit us at https://imperativeinfo.com.
If you are an HRCI or SHRM-certified professional, this episode of Good Morning, HR has been pre-approved for half a recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information for this episode, visit https://goodmorninghr.com.
About our Guest:
Shawn Johnson is a speaker, trainer, and consultant. She has been involved in leadership development for over 20 years, from small privately owned companies to Fortune 1000. She’s passionate about working with leaders and their teams to foster generational inclusion, using her own experience growing up in a four-generation family business.
Her presentations prepare organizations to better understand each generation’s approach to the world of work, build a foundation of trust, and create higher performing teams. As a result, they leverage generational differences for greater success.
She and her husband, Ronnie, live in the Fort Worth area and enjoy life in the country with their 2 dogs, 2 cats, and hanging out with their multi-generational Johnson family.
Shawn Johnson can be reached at
https://shawnjohnsonspeaks.com/ (download her Generational Cheat Sheet here!)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ShawnJohnsonSpeaks
https://www.facebook.com/shawnjohnsonspeaks
https://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnsonSpeaks
About Mike Coffey:
Mike Coffey is an entrepreneur, licensed private investigator, business strategist, HR consultant, and registered yoga teacher.
In 1999, he founded Imperative, a background investigations and due diligence firm helping risk-averse clients make well-informed decisions about the people they involve in their business.
Imperative delivers in-depth employment background investigations, know-your-customer and anti-money laundering compliance, and due diligence investigations to more than 300 risk-averse corporate clients across the US, and, through its PFC Caregiver & Household Screening brand, many more private estates, family offices, and personal service agencies.
Imperative has been named a Best Places to Work, the Texas Association of Business’ small business of the year, and is accredited by the Professional Background Screening Association.
Mike shares his insight from 25+ years of HR-entrepreneurship on the Good Morning, HR podcast, where each week he talks to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for customers, shareholders, and community.
Mike has been recognized as an Entrepreneur of
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shawn Johnson (00:00):
So once again, it's more complicated because
we're all so different. We'reall individuals and we all have
different personalities. And I Ilook at the, generational
descriptors, if you wanna callthem that, or categories. Is
just one part of the whole, buta part that can be important
when we're looking for ways toconnect with people.
Mike Coffey (00:25):
Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of
Imperative, bulletproofbackground checks with fast and
friendly service. And this isthe podcast where I talk to
business leaders about bringingpeople together to create value
for shareholders, customers, andthe community. Please follow
rate and review good morning HRwherever you get your podcast.
You can also find us onFacebook, Instagram, YouTube, or
(00:48):
at goodmorninghr.com.
Every fifteen to twenty years,we get a new generation entering
the workforce. And very quickly,the older generations begin to
roll their eyes at them. Andmaybe that's simply because the
young folks think they know itall or maybe us old farts feel
threatened by the kids or maybethere's something else to it.
(01:10):
Joining me today is SeanJohnson, author of this handy
little guide strategies for agenerational inclusion at work,
68 proven solutions to increaseproductivity, innovation, and
productivity or profitabilityeven more. Sean is a speaker,
author, and consultant who'sworked with leaders from small
(01:31):
privately owned companies toFortune 1,000 firms.
She's passionate about workingwith leaders and their teams to
foster generational inclusionusing her own experience growing
up in a four generation familybusiness. Welcome to Good
Morning HR, Sean.
Shawn Johnson (01:47):
Thank you, Mike. It's I'm so happy to be here. I
love that, discussion about the,older generations rolling their
eyes at the younger generations.It's timeless. I mean, Aristotle
referred to this, you know, overtwo thousand years ago that this
was a problem.
Continues to be an issue today.And me being from an older
(02:07):
generation, I find myself doingthat occasionally. I have to
check myself because we were allyoung once and if you know, if
things go well, we all are goingto be older at some point in
time. So it's that building ofrespect and understanding and
things like that that thatthat's really my goal when I'm
going to organizations or givekeynotes is to see the you know,
(02:31):
put ourselves in the othergenerations shoes. Let's say it
that way.
That empathy because we're allgoing through these life stages.
It's just the way it goes.
Mike Coffey (02:41):
Yeah. And you know, I'm Gen X and I'm on the leading
edge of Gen X and, know, therewere a lot of things said about
us in the late eighties and, youknow, predictions about what the
world was gonna look like undergenetics and, you know,
according to a lot of thosetheories from way back then, I
(03:02):
should still be sitting on thecouch eating pizza, watching MTV
all day. So, I get and, youknow, as a career HR guy, I'm
always nervous whenever we makebroad generalizations about
groups of people based on theirdemographics. I mean,
everybody's genetics, familybackground, their experiences
are all different. And wewouldn't make generalizations
(03:24):
about people because of theirrace, their sex, their national
origin.
So make the argument for me thatthere's value in in looking into
and understanding generationaldifferences.
Shawn Johnson (03:36):
Well, I think there's absolutely value. And
and I'll start so let me startwith my growing up experience.
That seems like a good place. Mygrandma that I grew up with on
the same farm and my grandpa,they were children of the Great
Depression. And they had somecrazy habits that just made me
roll my eyes.
Like, my grandma had a walk incloset full of toilet paper. I
(03:58):
kid you not. And, you know,during COVID, I wished I had
that. I was like, where where isthat closet? Let's get to it.
Mike Coffey (04:04):
Future generations may have those, right?
Shawn Johnson (04:06):
Yeah. But you know it was so hard for me to
understand the way she thoughtabout things because I grew up
in the sixties where you knowthings are pretty easily
available. I would have neverthought twice about are we gonna
run out of something like shedid. And then you can fast
forward that. Well you mentionedGen X, I'm kind of a tail end
baby boomer and baby boomers seethings differently often times
(04:29):
than Gen Xers because we tendedto have more stay at home moms.
We didn't have as much cabletelevision like MTV. We didn't
tend to go to school computerseven in college. So we learned
all those skills like computersand emails and things like that
during our working careerinstead of during our education.
(04:50):
So we see things a little bitdifferently. We might be a
little more hesitant sometimeswith technology because of that.
And then you get to like themillennials and you can almost
divide that generation in halfbecause the ones that grew up
with eye technology, think aboutwork in different ways than
those that grew up without it.So the older millennials grew up
(05:10):
with like AOL online
Mike Coffey (05:13):
Right.
Shawn Johnson (05:13):
And the younger millennials grew up with
iPhones. And so they think aboutwork and technology different
even though all of thosegenerations from the baby
boomers down to Gen Z can betech savvy, we can use
technology. My husband is veryproficient proficient using his
iPhone to do anything, but wetend to see it a little bit
(05:35):
different. We tend to valuetechnology in different ways.
Mike Coffey (05:38):
So those are differences and there may be
listeners who are people leadersout there who say, I really
don't care about what thosedifferences are. I just want to
set the expectations. This ishow we're gonna operate. You've
got to operate at this level.You figure it out.
What would you say to thatleader that just says, look, I'm
not keeping up with all thesegenerational things. I'm just
(06:00):
gonna set expectations andexpect people to to meet them.
Shawn Johnson (06:05):
Yeah. Well, setting expectations is
definitely the number one thing.And oftentimes leaders forget to
do that because especially ifwe're a little older, we assume
that people know what we think.You know, we we say work starts
at 08:00, we think they're gonnashow up at 08:00 and we don't
set those expectations. But thento take it a step further and
(06:25):
answer your question, once youset expectations, younger
generations because theparenting styles are gonna
expect you to give more of awhy.
And that might be reallyannoying especially for baby
boomers like myself that grew upwith the you do it because I
said so Mhmm. Attitude not onlyparenting, but leadership you
know as we came into theworkplace. But it's just not
(06:48):
gonna work with Millennials andGen Z because they grew up in an
atmosphere where both teachersand parents said, oh let me
explain why to you. Let me letme tell you why. Are you gonna
buy into this with me?
I mean I remember havingconversations with our
millennial children where I waslike trying to sell them on the
idea that they should dosomething. That my parents would
(07:09):
have just said you do it. Right.You do it or else. But the
smaller families, you know, thatmillennials and Gen Z grew up in
and the helicopter parentingstyles, myself included, have
led them to say, you you have toexplain to us why we need to do
this.
And it's also led to a situationwhere expectations need to be
(07:31):
set more often through theyears. You can't just set them
once.
Mike Coffey (07:36):
And so because, I mean, and we still have this
workforce, it still has boomersin it and all the way down to
gen z. I guess the argumentwould be that if we want people
to know how to work alongsideeach other, we want leaders to
know how to motivate,incentivize, you know, and even
direct and give the the rightkind of information to an
(07:58):
employee because I'm Gen Z and Idon't know if this is
necessarily a Gen Z thing, butI've always been very much just
give it to me, I'll figure itout, let me just, you know,
grind it out and I've definitelyseen that especially with my
millennials and my Gen Zemployees on my team, you know,
and it may be a factor of how wehire too, for certain
(08:19):
personality traits I guess, butthey really want to not only
know the why, they want all theambiguity removed.
Shawn Johnson (08:27):
Yes.
Mike Coffey (08:28):
You know, and for me, I thrive in ambiguity and
so, and I don't know how much ofit is personalities and for, you
know, our hiring practices andthat's worked really well for us
or if that is a generationalthing. But I guess
understanding, at leastunderstanding these broad things
about generations as we begin todeal with individuals on an
individual basis, it's not fairto make an assumption, guess,
(08:51):
that a Gen Z person needs allthis information. You know,
there are Gen Z people out therewho don't want that need, that
constant praise and feedback andall that. But understanding that
somebody, you know, who grew upwith a certain set of
experiences, you know,economically and what went on in
politics in the world and justthe social changes may have a
(09:13):
higher tendency to think acertain way or to respond a
certain way may give asensitivity when we're talking
to them or working with issuesaround around workplace issues?
Shawn Johnson (09:24):
Yeah. I think it's all about conversation and
curiosity, asking open endedquestions because there's life
stage issues like you mentionedin your introduction. You know,
there's life stage issues. As weget older, we do things
differently. And then there'salso personality.
Sometimes I'll be working with agroup of leaders and leadership
development and they'll say, youknow our older, the older people
(09:47):
that we're trying to lead, theyjust don't like change. And
while there is some truth inthat, I find as I get older, I
might be a little more resistantto change. There's also
personality types. You know, Ido a lot of work with the DISC
assessment and people that areHigh
Mike Coffey (10:02):
I low S low C, that's me.
Shawn Johnson (10:04):
Yeah. Yeah. So the high S's they don't like
change.
Mike Coffey (10:07):
Right.
Shawn Johnson (10:08):
So you and I are good with change. And so to
speak, like you know, we'regonna accept it more willingly,
but you know, you might have a25 year old with a high s that
is very resistant to change ofany kind. So once again, it's
more complicated because we'reall so different. We're all
individuals and we all havedifferent personalities. And I I
(10:29):
look at the, generationaldescriptors if you wanna call
them that or categories.
It's just one part of the whole,but a part that can be important
when we're looking for ways toconnect with people because it
describes the problems thatpeople share that come of age in
a certain way. For example, ifyou're Gen Z and you went to
(10:50):
high school or college duringthe pandemic, you may not have
had a graduation, right? Not onein person. You may have started
work without ever meeting yourfellow employees for two years.
Those those are things that youexperience that other people
won't.
So the rest of your life if yourefer back to that with a group
of people like yourself, they'regonna immediately connect with
(11:14):
what that experience was like.Whereas for the rest of us, we
can't quite I mean we canunderstand it logically, but we
can't connect with that. So weshare the same problems with the
people we grow up with and evenneuroscience. Doctor Carolyn
Leif is her name. She's actuallya Texan, but she's done a lot of
work in this area and she saysthat the ideas we focus on, the
(11:36):
things we focus on during ourformative years will influence
our thinking the rest of ourlives.
Mike Coffey (11:43):
That makes sense. Yeah. And I think we know just
from the from DISC and otherbehavioral stuff that age 13 to
15, kind of what you're realshort of a really traumatic
experience. That's kind of whoyou are for a big part of the
your oh, that's who your whatthat your natural behavior is
gonna be at least for the restof your life. So let's just for
(12:07):
clarity, we've talked aboutthese generations.
What are the age groups? Whenyou're talking about these
categories all the way, youknow, back to the
traditionalists of the boomers,what are the years are we
talking about for each of those?Just so we're all on the same
page because it seems like everytime you it up on the Internet,
it's a different kind ofcategory.
Shawn Johnson (12:25):
Yeah. Well, I tend to, refer to the Pew
Research age categories.Although recently, I think last
year they came out and said theyweren't gonna they weren't gonna
do that anymore, but they'restill out there. And so I think
of traditionalist as beinganyone over 80. And a lot of
times people are caught offguard when I say they're still
at work.
My aunt's 81, she's a schoolpsychologist. The right in my
(12:49):
family I have that. And you cantake a look at Congress for even
further Oh
Mike Coffey (12:53):
my gosh. Yeah.
Shawn Johnson (12:54):
Supportive of traditionalist being at work.
And so Well,
Mike Coffey (12:58):
they're showing up at least. I don't know if
Congress
Shawn Johnson (13:00):
is really
Mike Coffey (13:01):
working, but yeah. Okay.
Shawn Johnson (13:02):
Yeah. Yeah. We could debate that. Right?
Mike Coffey (13:04):
Yeah.
Shawn Johnson (13:05):
So baby boomers of course are behind that. So
the oldest baby boomers areabout 79. The youngest baby
boomers are 60, 60 one. And thenwe have Gen X. And so Gen Xers
are gonna be about 45 to to 60somewhere in that age age range.
You know and you see that wehave these cuspers you know in
every group. Mhmm. So like youand I are both probably cuspers
(13:28):
and we might lean one way oranother. We might be a blend,
you know, of the ideology of thegenerations. Like you might be
you might have some boomerideology along with your Gen X.
It's hard to that's why it's socomplicated. It's kinda
slippery. Right?
Mike Coffey (13:43):
And and and and I'm probably unique in that my
grandparents had giant impact onme growing up. Yeah. And so they
were traditionalists. Mean they,you know, they were definitely
children of the depression,World War two and all of that.
And there are times where I dothings and I realize, oh, that
was my grandfather speaking whenI said that.
(14:04):
And and so, you know, I guess,you know, the different
influences people have make adifference, there too. So so Gen
X is what about 65 to 1980, isthat about right?
Shawn Johnson (14:16):
Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because 1980 is the
beginning of the millennials, 1980 one.
Because they came of age at thetime of the Millennium. '2
thousand. Y '2 k.
Mike Coffey (14:26):
Okay.
Shawn Johnson (14:27):
That's when they were you know, really the oldest
ones were entering the world ofwork. And then of course, Gen Z
follows them. So about '97through 02/2015. And we call the
youngest generation alpha, andstarting this year, we have
betas being born.
Mike Coffey (14:45):
And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is
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research credits. Then selectepisode one ninety two and enter
the keyword generations. That'sg e n e r a t I o n s.
And now back to my conversationwith Sean Johnson. So what are
(16:40):
those as we talk about thesedifferent generations,
especially in the workforce,what are the primary factors
that shape those generationaldifferences? We've talked on it
a little bit. We just mentionedsocial or politics. Yeah.
But what are the things thatreally make a difference in how
people, as they come of age, seethe world?
Shawn Johnson (17:01):
Well experts, tend to believe and and agree on
the fact that parenting is thebiggest factor. And, and we and
I would say parenting influencesthe way we look at leadership
the most of all of the thingsthat we grow up with parenting
because those are our leaders aswe come of age. Might have faith
(17:21):
based But that's where we getour information. And you see
traditionalist, you know, theyI'm gonna reach back to that
generation because they thoughtof the leaders as the authority.
When you were watching the newsduring the years that they were
growing up and even afterwards,whatever Walter Cronkite said,
that was pretty much it.
(17:41):
And he would say that's the wayit is when he'd close this, you
know, his news broadcast. Andthen we see the baby boomers
come in there a little moreskeptical, know, Vietnam, things
like that. And so you seeleadership shifting with world
events in that way because thenyou have Gen X and Watergate and
all kinds of, know, corporatebankruptcies and corruption and
(18:05):
people losing their jobs whoshould not have lost their jobs.
And so there's more and moreskepticism. News becomes more
and more questionable.
Right? We start havinginvestigative reporting, things
like that. And then alongside ofthat, we have the parenting
trends of, you know, the motherbeing home, the authoritative
parenting. Boomers grew up veryin a very competitive
(18:28):
environment because the parentshad four or five kids. So the
focus wasn't just on you andthen you know, like I mentioned
as we go forward Gen X, parentsare busier, dual income
households and millennials.
We it's almost like a flip back,you know, where parents all of a
sudden are very involved. Theygo to every sporting event. They
(18:50):
only have two kids. Very focusedon, are you in the right pre k?
Are you going to the rightcollege?
Or whatever the case might be?Mhmm. And then Gen Z who tend to
be raised by Gen Xers. It's alittle different because Gen
Xers tend to be a little morehands off than millennial
parents were. So all of that,does that make sense?
That all comes together. It'skind of world events and
(19:12):
parenting and education side byside molding the way that we
look at leadership. Look at whatshould happen at work.
Mike Coffey (19:22):
And so we talk you said Gen Z is at age seven to
25, which only a small portionof that group has come into the
workforce. And I think about thethe that later group, you know,
that were born 02/2005 to 2015,the last half of that, they've
(19:43):
seen a lot of change in theirformative years and they're not
even in the workforce yet. Imean, they're, you know, 10, 12
years old and with the advent ofAI, the the political discourse
of the last fifteen years, allthe things that they they see
and, you know, I'm wondering ifwe will end up splitting Gen Z
(20:05):
off just because there's been somuch change into Gen Z part one
and Gen Z part two or somethingjust because it seems like that
change has been so radical. Imean, I don't know if there's
any prognostication out thereabout that, but I'm curious, you
know, when we're 97 to twentyfifteen is a pretty broad range
and I'm with the amount ofchange we've had, I wonder if
(20:26):
that'll split. I'm I'm not sure.
Is there anything out there? Isthere any research out there yet
to say that these nine year oldsare are are that different from
the the rest of that cohort?
Shawn Johnson (20:37):
There's not that I know of on Gen Z, but we do
tend to look at generations,like baby boomers. Sometimes
people call younger boomersgeneration Jones because they
were always trying to keep upwith the Joneses, where the
older boomers were moreconcerned about, you know, civil
rights and things like that. Andthe same thing with the
millennials. The youngermillennials have been called IY,
(21:00):
generation y, and they're theones who grew up with eye
technology. So it's verypossible the Gen z you might
separate those that really grewup entering a workplace or
finishing school during thepandemic versus those that were
little kids.
Mike Coffey (21:15):
Interesting.
Shawn Johnson (21:16):
Okay.
Mike Coffey (21:16):
Yeah.
Shawn Johnson (21:17):
So but I haven't seen it yet, but it could be out
there. Someone may have alreadydone some research on this.
Mike Coffey (21:22):
And time will tell I guess. So Yeah. As generations
mature, do we see those valuesand work styles shift? You know,
so what we said, you know, arewe saying the same thing about
Gen X at in our fifties as thatwe said we said about them that
we would have said about them inthe 80, you know, mid eighties
(21:44):
to early nineties? Or do do weas we mature, do the does that
population tend to change?
Shawn Johnson (21:52):
I I think as we mature, we do tend to change.
Jean Twinsch has done a lot ofresearch on this And she says,
one of the things that reallycaught my attention was when she
talks about the fact thatgenerations overall become more
conservative politically andotherwise as they get older. Now
that doesn't mean everyone thatwas at a liberal point of view
(22:15):
as they were young are gonnabecome conservative, but they do
trend that way as they getolder. And there there's a lot
of reasons that that could be.And she goes into in-depth
analysis.
But her book is called general Ithink that's in her generations
book. I'm looking at mybookshelf. But yeah, she's done
a lot of work on that. Yes. Wedo tend to change as we get
(22:36):
older and become a little bitmore like those who came before
us.
It's funny what life will do foryou.
Mike Coffey (22:43):
Yeah. Well, there's that old there's that old saw
that if you're if you're notliberal when when you're young,
you don't have a heart and ifyou're not more conservative
when you're older, you don'thave a brain. I mean, you
Shawn Johnson (22:55):
know, you can get
Mike Coffey (22:56):
more to conserve and hold on to. I don't wanna
get emails about that, but the,you know, and and definitely I
can look back on my my, youknow, thoughts about what the
world should be like, what workshould be like and things like
that and how they've changedover, you know, almost forty
years in the workplace.Actually, than forty because I
got my first job in fifth grade,so fifty years. So, I can see
(23:18):
that and I would I wonder whatthat tells us about, I guess,
just leadership having to bepretty dynamic and really pay
attention to maybe the Gen Z oftoday is in ten years for, you
know, forgive me Gen Zers, maybethey won't be so needy or won't
(23:39):
need that affirmation maybethey'll feel more independent
and and maybe that's becauseworkplaces will respond and give
them that independence. Butmaybe that's what we should talk
about is we've got thesedifferent generations, the
boomers, gen x, millennials andgen z are the primary ones that
are in the workplace.
Kind of go through the highlevel differences between what,
(23:59):
you know, we'd just pick onewhether it's what they expect
from let's talk about what theyexpect from leadership what
meaningful work means to each ofthose and how those would be
different because I think thoseare you've got a by the way, her
book's great and she's got agreat on her website, a great
cheat sheet. We'll put a link toto that in the in the show notes
that you can download this greatPDF that Sean has on her
(24:21):
website. But kind of just gothrough maybe leadership, what
to expect from leadership andand what meaningful work.
Because I'm always concernedabout making sure the work that
people are doing is meaningfulto them so that's it's more than
just going and punching a clock.
Shawn Johnson (24:37):
Yeah. Well, to start off with, I would say that
every generation does wantmeaningful for work, just look
at it differently.
Mike Coffey (24:43):
Mhmm.
Shawn Johnson (24:44):
Know for example, traditionalist would look a
meaningful work is for thegreater good. They grew up in a
world rebuilding after World Wartwo. They still tend to think
about is this for the greatergood. Think outside themselves,
kind of a responsibility focus,know, like we're responsible for
everyone around us. Boomersmight think of meaningful work
as something that helps them intheir career, helps them in
(25:07):
their growth, you know, helpsthem achieve their personal
goals or helps them at thispoint maybe become better
mentors.
Meaningful work might meanmentoring others and bringing
people with them on theirjourney as they get older, they
tend to wanna leave a legacy. Sothat might be more meaningful
work to them. Gen X and I youcould correct me if I'm wrong
(25:28):
here. But I think, you know, GenX like work that's, balanced and
pragmatic and practical andmakes sense to them. They're
very as a generation, verypractical.
And the millennials like workthat's collaborative, that has
purpose. You know, they're thefirst generation to say, what's
my purpose? I have to have apurpose at work. And a lot of
(25:51):
that came out of the way theywere raised, you know, that they
were special. That you have aspecial purpose, a special
meaning.
Some of the older generationsdidn't really get that message
growing up. And then Gen Z, theywanna be authentic. They they
want work to be flexible. Theywant to, you know, be adaptable.
(26:12):
They they're veryentrepreneurial in their work.
So when you think about thingsthat work well for them, you
might think about giving themsome autonomy and allowing them
to discover things. At the sametime, their work's gonna be more
meaningful to them if they getthis constant feedback loop that
they're used to from socialmedia and things like that to
(26:33):
make sure they're on the righttrack. You know, where some of
the older generations would justassume unless no no news is good
news. Right? When you get to theyounger generations, even though
they like that meaningful work,they wanna connect to the bigger
vision and they wanna know thatthey're on track to get there.
They want that reassurance.
Mike Coffey (26:51):
And I wonder if it's just a factor of being
young means you're naturallyimpatient because certainly I
was when I was early in mycareer. But it does seem like
the younger generation,especially Gen Z, is less
comfortable putting in theirtime
Shawn Johnson (27:12):
Mhmm.
Mike Coffey (27:12):
To to advance. That they, you know, they want more
rapid know, they wantacceleration in their career,
want to to move ahead at afaster pace. And that's just my
impression. Is that Yes. Thatreally characteristic to them or
is that all of us when we'reyoung?
Shawn Johnson (27:29):
I think we're all a little impatient when we're
young, but the expectations onceagain, at least when I came to
work, was that you paid yourdues. And you know, I remember
hearing like you, I grew up withgrandparents and great
grandparents and it was goodthings come to those who wait.
Right?
Mike Coffey (27:44):
Right.
Shawn Johnson (27:45):
And and millennials and Gen Z in
particular grew up with goodthings come to you second day
air from Amazon. So you knowYeah. Yeah, fast is good, slow
is bad. That's the that's theworld they grew up in. That's
the message they received fromeverything going on around them
was that everything had to befaster And we as a society were
(28:05):
expecting things to happenfaster as technology increased.
You know, think about it, youknow, where we used to wait for
things more even all of us,every age group got used to
things moving along faster. Andso that's the world they grew up
in. They never grew up in theworld where people said, know,
good things come to those whowait, the early bird gets the
worm, you know. That was not theworld they grew up in.
Mike Coffey (28:29):
So the title of your book is, strategies for
generational inclusion at work.And that term inclusion, like
everything with diversity,equity, inclusion has become a
loaded term and means differentthings to different people. So
when you're talking aboutgeneral generational inclusion,
what does that mean? Let's getthat really clear for for
Shawn Johnson (28:48):
everybody. Sure. Yeah. It it means the, the
seamless blending of the wisdomof experience with the young
ideology and the newperspectives of younger
generations. I I had been inleadership development quite a
few years when I kinda took thispivot into talking about
generations.
And the reason I was so inspiredto do it was because I saw
(29:11):
companies, especially largercorporations pushing people out
by the time they were 60. Theywanted to just put that person
in a corner office and startencouraging them to retire. And
I thought, how short sighted.Because these are people that
intuitively know things that youcan't learn in school and you
can't Google it. You know, youRight.
(29:33):
You know it because you'velearned it through experience.
And at the same time I washearing my younger nieces,
nephews, my children and theirfriends, younger people in my
leadership development classessaying, no one listens to us.
You know, we got all thiseducation and we're excited
about our new job and we try toshare good ideas and we're just
(29:54):
shot down immediately. No onewants to hear what we have to
say. So why did they hire us?
Why are we here? And that's howI got into the, discussion of
inclusion. I know it's a hottopic or has been. Things are
shifting a little bit right inthe DEI space. But it was a hot
it has been a hot topic.
But what happens is when youhave people that don't feel like
(30:15):
they belong because of age,which is something we cannot
help among other things. Wecannot help how old we are.
That's how old we are. Andthere's no sense of belonging.
We feel unappreciated.
Well that's why we used to haveconversations about quiet
quitting Mhmm. Disengagement.Because when you feel like
you're not important and it'ssomething you can't control,
(30:38):
what do you do? You have to havea paycheck so you just kinda go
through the motions.
Mike Coffey (30:43):
Yeah. And you're not not in in some very low
employee engagement. You're notcontributing to the team. The
team doesn't have thatcohesiveness to really, solve
problems and to move ahead. Sowe recognize these differences
and that's interesting, but howcan an employer leverage the
knowledge that we're, you know,that we're that, you know, that
(31:05):
we have about these generationsto create a more inclusive and,
you know, ultimately the keygoal is a more productive
workforce.
Shawn Johnson (31:13):
Yeah. I think that's very important. Thanks
for asking that. And it's a it'sa cultural shift and it has to
come from the top down, topleadership down because you have
to have a climate, a positiveclimate where everyone is
respected. I heard a story lastweek from an executive VP in a
(31:34):
corporation say, he was in ameeting with younger leaders and
he felt like every time he saidsomething, they looked at him
like, you're old, you're grumpyand you don't know anything and
we got better ideas and yeah,just like go sit in the corner.
Mike Coffey (31:50):
Mhmm.
Shawn Johnson (31:50):
And that's not helpful and that's coming from
the top levels of thatcorporation that they're not
setting a tone for respectingacross the board. At the same
time, you know, younger ideasshould be respected too. And
then there should be a safepositive environment where we
can discuss and and have thosehave those ideas and those
(32:10):
differences collide in apositive way. Because what that
does is expand options. We starthaving conversations about
things that we would have neverthought of if we were busy
shutting each other down orstaying in our little silo of
thought.
So it's a top down culturalshift to look at our differences
as opportunities rather thanproblems.
Mike Coffey (32:32):
And that's interesting because as I press
the bell curve of age groups andstart to go down on the other
side in my volunteer activities,my board activities, and in my
own company, sometimes I'll hearan idea and my first reaction
will be, yeah, we tried that.And, you know, or yeah, that
(32:55):
won't work because we've donethis rather than hearing the
idea out. So definitely there'ssomething on I think with, you
know, with the the higherexperienced people, you know,
because maybe we did try it andmaybe it didn't work. But maybe
it didn't work because of thepeople that were trying it or
the technology available or thecircumstances. And maybe a
(33:17):
different perspective could makethis thing happen and maybe we
need to stop and hear theseideas from from young people.
But on and on the flip side, Iwould say that, you know, maybe
the the the young people need tosay, okay, you did try that.
Tell me about what happenedthere. Maybe we can learn from
that too and flip thatconversation, oh, you know, and
take some of the initiative to,not shut down that idea, you
(33:40):
know, that this won't work, butunderstand why maybe it didn't
before and how we plan againstagainst that into the future.
Shawn Johnson (33:48):
That's absolutely the right thing to do. Yeah. And
me being older too, there aretimes that there are
conversations that I get fromyounger people where I'm like,
oh, no no no no, please. But ifwe can take a step back, hear
each other out, and then reallytalk through it without feeling
threatened. No one should feelthreatened.
It doesn't have to be my idea oryour idea. Once again, that's
(34:10):
that's kind of a mind shift.Right? You know, because it's
hard sometimes to hear thatwe're wrong or we don't know
what we're talking about. Butthose are the important
conversations where we canreally leverage the older
experience, the younger brightfresh perspectives, and come up
with possibilities that wewouldn't otherwise.
But there it is important and Ithink this came up in this
(34:31):
conversation with this executiveis that he was watching things
happen that had failed in thepast. And it just seemed like,
you know, the whole group wasrunning in the wrong direction,
gonna make the same mistakes andthey didn't wanna hear about
what happened in the past. So itis that balance between let's
listen to what what's worked inthe past and then let's also
(34:54):
listen to how we might changethat a little bit and avoid some
of the the mistakes and and comeup with a better way, better way
to do things, better way toapproach things.
Mike Coffey (35:04):
Well, that sounds like a perfect place to end it.
But thank you for joining metoday, Sean. That was great.
Shawn Johnson (35:11):
Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed
being here, Mike.
Mike Coffey (35:15):
And you can reach Sean at SeanJohnsonSpeaks dot
com.
Shawn Johnson (35:20):
Link is It's
Mike Coffey (35:21):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Shawn Johnson (35:22):
It's SeanSeanJohnsonSpeaks.com.
Mike Coffey (35:24):
Oh, yeah. SeanSpeaks.com or you can go to
her websiteSeanJohnsonSpeaks.com and we
will include all those contactsin her in the show notes. And
thank you for listening. If youenjoyed this episode, please
write us a review on ApplePodcasts, Spotify, YouTube,
wherever you listen, and thenshare this episode with your
(35:46):
favorite show social mediaplatform. It really does help us
reach more listeners.
And we'd love to hear yourthoughts at goodmorninghr.com.
Rob Upchurch is our technicalproducer, and you can reach him
at rob makes pods dot com. Andthank you to Imperative's
marketing coordinator Mary AnneHernandez who keeps the trains
running on time. And I'm MikeCoffey. As always, please don't
(36:10):
hesitate to reach out if I canbe of service to you personally
or professionally.
I'll see you next week. Anduntil then, be well, do good,
and keep your chin up.
So once again, it's more complicated because
we're all so different. We'reall individuals and we all have
different personalities. And I Ilook at the, generational
descriptors, if you wanna callthem that, or categories. Is
just one part of the whole, buta part that can be important
when we're looking for ways toconnect with people.
Mike Coffey (00:25):
Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of
Imperative, bulletproofbackground checks with fast and
friendly service. And this isthe podcast where I talk to
business leaders about bringingpeople together to create value
for shareholders, customers, andthe community. Please follow
rate and review good morning HRwherever you get your podcast.
You can also find us onFacebook, Instagram, YouTube, or
(00:48):
at goodmorninghr.com.
Every fifteen to twenty years,we get a new generation entering
the workforce. And very quickly,the older generations begin to
roll their eyes at them. Andmaybe that's simply because the
young folks think they know itall or maybe us old farts feel
threatened by the kids or maybethere's something else to it.
(01:10):
Joining me today is SeanJohnson, author of this handy
little guide strategies for agenerational inclusion at work,
68 proven solutions to increaseproductivity, innovation, and
productivity or profitabilityeven more. Sean is a speaker,
author, and consultant who'sworked with leaders from small
(01:31):
privately owned companies toFortune 1,000 firms.
She's passionate about workingwith leaders and their teams to
foster generational inclusionusing her own experience growing
up in a four generation familybusiness. Welcome to Good
Morning HR, Sean.
Shawn Johnson (01:47):
Thank you, Mike. It's I'm so happy to be here. I
love that, discussion about the,older generations rolling their
eyes at the younger generations.It's timeless. I mean, Aristotle
referred to this, you know, overtwo thousand years ago that this
was a problem.
Continues to be an issue today.And me being from an older
(02:07):
generation, I find myself doingthat occasionally. I have to
check myself because we were allyoung once and if you know, if
things go well, we all are goingto be older at some point in
time. So it's that building ofrespect and understanding and
things like that that thatthat's really my goal when I'm
going to organizations or givekeynotes is to see the you know,
(02:31):
put ourselves in the othergenerations shoes. Let's say it
that way.
That empathy because we're allgoing through these life stages.
It's just the way it goes.
Mike Coffey (02:41):
Yeah. And you know, I'm Gen X and I'm on the leading
edge of Gen X and, know, therewere a lot of things said about
us in the late eighties and, youknow, predictions about what the
world was gonna look like undergenetics and, you know,
according to a lot of thosetheories from way back then, I
(03:02):
should still be sitting on thecouch eating pizza, watching MTV
all day. So, I get and, youknow, as a career HR guy, I'm
always nervous whenever we makebroad generalizations about
groups of people based on theirdemographics. I mean,
everybody's genetics, familybackground, their experiences
are all different. And wewouldn't make generalizations
(03:24):
about people because of theirrace, their sex, their national
origin.
So make the argument for me thatthere's value in in looking into
and understanding generationaldifferences.
Shawn Johnson (03:36):
Well, I think there's absolutely value. And
and I'll start so let me startwith my growing up experience.
That seems like a good place. Mygrandma that I grew up with on
the same farm and my grandpa,they were children of the Great
Depression. And they had somecrazy habits that just made me
roll my eyes.
Like, my grandma had a walk incloset full of toilet paper. I
(03:58):
kid you not. And, you know,during COVID, I wished I had
that. I was like, where where isthat closet? Let's get to it.
Mike Coffey (04:04):
Future generations may have those, right?
Shawn Johnson (04:06):
Yeah. But you know it was so hard for me to
understand the way she thoughtabout things because I grew up
in the sixties where you knowthings are pretty easily
available. I would have neverthought twice about are we gonna
run out of something like shedid. And then you can fast
forward that. Well you mentionedGen X, I'm kind of a tail end
baby boomer and baby boomers seethings differently often times
(04:29):
than Gen Xers because we tendedto have more stay at home moms.
We didn't have as much cabletelevision like MTV. We didn't
tend to go to school computerseven in college. So we learned
all those skills like computersand emails and things like that
during our working careerinstead of during our education.
(04:50):
So we see things a little bitdifferently. We might be a
little more hesitant sometimeswith technology because of that.
And then you get to like themillennials and you can almost
divide that generation in halfbecause the ones that grew up
with eye technology, think aboutwork in different ways than
those that grew up without it.So the older millennials grew up
(05:10):
with like AOL online
Mike Coffey (05:13):
Right.
Shawn Johnson (05:13):
And the younger millennials grew up with
iPhones. And so they think aboutwork and technology different
even though all of thosegenerations from the baby
boomers down to Gen Z can betech savvy, we can use
technology. My husband is veryproficient proficient using his
iPhone to do anything, but wetend to see it a little bit
(05:35):
different. We tend to valuetechnology in different ways.
Mike Coffey (05:38):
So those are differences and there may be
listeners who are people leadersout there who say, I really
don't care about what thosedifferences are. I just want to
set the expectations. This ishow we're gonna operate. You've
got to operate at this level.You figure it out.
What would you say to thatleader that just says, look, I'm
not keeping up with all thesegenerational things. I'm just
(06:00):
gonna set expectations andexpect people to to meet them.
Shawn Johnson (06:05):
Yeah. Well, setting expectations is
definitely the number one thing.And oftentimes leaders forget to
do that because especially ifwe're a little older, we assume
that people know what we think.You know, we we say work starts
at 08:00, we think they're gonnashow up at 08:00 and we don't
set those expectations. But thento take it a step further and
(06:25):
answer your question, once youset expectations, younger
generations because theparenting styles are gonna
expect you to give more of awhy.
And that might be reallyannoying especially for baby
boomers like myself that grew upwith the you do it because I
said so Mhmm. Attitude not onlyparenting, but leadership you
know as we came into theworkplace. But it's just not
(06:48):
gonna work with Millennials andGen Z because they grew up in an
atmosphere where both teachersand parents said, oh let me
explain why to you. Let me letme tell you why. Are you gonna
buy into this with me?
I mean I remember havingconversations with our
millennial children where I waslike trying to sell them on the
idea that they should dosomething. That my parents would
(07:09):
have just said you do it. Right.You do it or else. But the
smaller families, you know, thatmillennials and Gen Z grew up in
and the helicopter parentingstyles, myself included, have
led them to say, you you have toexplain to us why we need to do
this.
And it's also led to a situationwhere expectations need to be
(07:31):
set more often through theyears. You can't just set them
once.
Mike Coffey (07:36):
And so because, I mean, and we still have this
workforce, it still has boomersin it and all the way down to
gen z. I guess the argumentwould be that if we want people
to know how to work alongsideeach other, we want leaders to
know how to motivate,incentivize, you know, and even
direct and give the the rightkind of information to an
(07:58):
employee because I'm Gen Z and Idon't know if this is
necessarily a Gen Z thing, butI've always been very much just
give it to me, I'll figure itout, let me just, you know,
grind it out and I've definitelyseen that especially with my
millennials and my Gen Zemployees on my team, you know,
and it may be a factor of how wehire too, for certain
(08:19):
personality traits I guess, butthey really want to not only
know the why, they want all theambiguity removed.
Shawn Johnson (08:27):
Yes.
Mike Coffey (08:28):
You know, and for me, I thrive in ambiguity and
so, and I don't know how much ofit is personalities and for, you
know, our hiring practices andthat's worked really well for us
or if that is a generationalthing. But I guess
understanding, at leastunderstanding these broad things
about generations as we begin todeal with individuals on an
individual basis, it's not fairto make an assumption, guess,
(08:51):
that a Gen Z person needs allthis information. You know,
there are Gen Z people out therewho don't want that need, that
constant praise and feedback andall that. But understanding that
somebody, you know, who grew upwith a certain set of
experiences, you know,economically and what went on in
politics in the world and justthe social changes may have a
(09:13):
higher tendency to think acertain way or to respond a
certain way may give asensitivity when we're talking
to them or working with issuesaround around workplace issues?
Shawn Johnson (09:24):
Yeah. I think it's all about conversation and
curiosity, asking open endedquestions because there's life
stage issues like you mentionedin your introduction. You know,
there's life stage issues. As weget older, we do things
differently. And then there'salso personality.
Sometimes I'll be working with agroup of leaders and leadership
development and they'll say, youknow our older, the older people
(09:47):
that we're trying to lead, theyjust don't like change. And
while there is some truth inthat, I find as I get older, I
might be a little more resistantto change. There's also
personality types. You know, Ido a lot of work with the DISC
assessment and people that areHigh
Mike Coffey (10:02):
I low S low C, that's me.
Shawn Johnson (10:04):
Yeah. Yeah. So the high S's they don't like
change.
Mike Coffey (10:07):
Right.
Shawn Johnson (10:08):
So you and I are good with change. And so to
speak, like you know, we'regonna accept it more willingly,
but you know, you might have a25 year old with a high s that
is very resistant to change ofany kind. So once again, it's
more complicated because we'reall so different. We're all
individuals and we all havedifferent personalities. And I I
(10:29):
look at the, generationaldescriptors if you wanna call
them that or categories.
It's just one part of the whole,but a part that can be important
when we're looking for ways toconnect with people because it
describes the problems thatpeople share that come of age in
a certain way. For example, ifyou're Gen Z and you went to
(10:50):
high school or college duringthe pandemic, you may not have
had a graduation, right? Not onein person. You may have started
work without ever meeting yourfellow employees for two years.
Those those are things that youexperience that other people
won't.
So the rest of your life if yourefer back to that with a group
of people like yourself, they'regonna immediately connect with
(11:14):
what that experience was like.Whereas for the rest of us, we
can't quite I mean we canunderstand it logically, but we
can't connect with that. So weshare the same problems with the
people we grow up with and evenneuroscience. Doctor Carolyn
Leif is her name. She's actuallya Texan, but she's done a lot of
work in this area and she saysthat the ideas we focus on, the
(11:36):
things we focus on during ourformative years will influence
our thinking the rest of ourlives.
Mike Coffey (11:43):
That makes sense. Yeah. And I think we know just
from the from DISC and otherbehavioral stuff that age 13 to
15, kind of what you're realshort of a really traumatic
experience. That's kind of whoyou are for a big part of the
your oh, that's who your whatthat your natural behavior is
gonna be at least for the restof your life. So let's just for
(12:07):
clarity, we've talked aboutthese generations.
What are the age groups? Whenyou're talking about these
categories all the way, youknow, back to the
traditionalists of the boomers,what are the years are we
talking about for each of those?Just so we're all on the same
page because it seems like everytime you it up on the Internet,
it's a different kind ofcategory.
Shawn Johnson (12:25):
Yeah. Well, I tend to, refer to the Pew
Research age categories.Although recently, I think last
year they came out and said theyweren't gonna they weren't gonna
do that anymore, but they'restill out there. And so I think
of traditionalist as beinganyone over 80. And a lot of
times people are caught offguard when I say they're still
at work.
My aunt's 81, she's a schoolpsychologist. The right in my
(12:49):
family I have that. And you cantake a look at Congress for even
further Oh
Mike Coffey (12:53):
my gosh. Yeah.
Shawn Johnson (12:54):
Supportive of traditionalist being at work.
And so Well,
Mike Coffey (12:58):
they're showing up at least. I don't know if
Congress
Shawn Johnson (13:00):
is really
Mike Coffey (13:01):
working, but yeah. Okay.
Shawn Johnson (13:02):
Yeah. Yeah. We could debate that. Right?
Mike Coffey (13:04):
Yeah.
Shawn Johnson (13:05):
So baby boomers of course are behind that. So
the oldest baby boomers areabout 79. The youngest baby
boomers are 60, 60 one. And thenwe have Gen X. And so Gen Xers
are gonna be about 45 to to 60somewhere in that age age range.
You know and you see that wehave these cuspers you know in
every group. Mhmm. So like youand I are both probably cuspers
(13:28):
and we might lean one way oranother. We might be a blend,
you know, of the ideology of thegenerations. Like you might be
you might have some boomerideology along with your Gen X.
It's hard to that's why it's socomplicated. It's kinda
slippery. Right?
Mike Coffey (13:43):
And and and and I'm probably unique in that my
grandparents had giant impact onme growing up. Yeah. And so they
were traditionalists. Mean they,you know, they were definitely
children of the depression,World War two and all of that.
And there are times where I dothings and I realize, oh, that
was my grandfather speaking whenI said that.
(14:04):
And and so, you know, I guess,you know, the different
influences people have make adifference, there too. So so Gen
X is what about 65 to 1980, isthat about right?
Shawn Johnson (14:16):
Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because 1980 is the
beginning of the millennials, 1980 one.
Because they came of age at thetime of the Millennium. '2
thousand. Y '2 k.
Mike Coffey (14:26):
Okay.
Shawn Johnson (14:27):
That's when they were you know, really the oldest
ones were entering the world ofwork. And then of course, Gen Z
follows them. So about '97through 02/2015. And we call the
youngest generation alpha, andstarting this year, we have
betas being born.
Mike Coffey (14:45):
And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is
brought to you by Imperative.Bulletproof background checks
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(15:06):
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webinar is free and preapprovedfor recertification credit.
You can register or watch therecording later by clicking on
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Good Morning HR has been preapproved for one half hour of
(16:14):
recertification credit. Toobtain the recertification
information visitgoodmorninghr.com and click on
research credits. Then selectepisode one ninety two and enter
the keyword generations. That'sg e n e r a t I o n s.
And now back to my conversationwith Sean Johnson. So what are
(16:40):
those as we talk about thesedifferent generations,
especially in the workforce,what are the primary factors
that shape those generationaldifferences? We've talked on it
a little bit. We just mentionedsocial or politics. Yeah.
But what are the things thatreally make a difference in how
people, as they come of age, seethe world?
Shawn Johnson (17:01):
Well experts, tend to believe and and agree on
the fact that parenting is thebiggest factor. And, and we and
I would say parenting influencesthe way we look at leadership
the most of all of the thingsthat we grow up with parenting
because those are our leaders aswe come of age. Might have faith
(17:21):
based But that's where we getour information. And you see
traditionalist, you know, theyI'm gonna reach back to that
generation because they thoughtof the leaders as the authority.
When you were watching the newsduring the years that they were
growing up and even afterwards,whatever Walter Cronkite said,
that was pretty much it.
(17:41):
And he would say that's the wayit is when he'd close this, you
know, his news broadcast. Andthen we see the baby boomers
come in there a little moreskeptical, know, Vietnam, things
like that. And so you seeleadership shifting with world
events in that way because thenyou have Gen X and Watergate and
all kinds of, know, corporatebankruptcies and corruption and
(18:05):
people losing their jobs whoshould not have lost their jobs.
And so there's more and moreskepticism. News becomes more
and more questionable.
Right? We start havinginvestigative reporting, things
like that. And then alongside ofthat, we have the parenting
trends of, you know, the motherbeing home, the authoritative
parenting. Boomers grew up veryin a very competitive
(18:28):
environment because the parentshad four or five kids. So the
focus wasn't just on you andthen you know, like I mentioned
as we go forward Gen X, parentsare busier, dual income
households and millennials.
We it's almost like a flip back,you know, where parents all of a
sudden are very involved. Theygo to every sporting event. They
(18:50):
only have two kids. Very focusedon, are you in the right pre k?
Are you going to the rightcollege?
Or whatever the case might be?Mhmm. And then Gen Z who tend to
be raised by Gen Xers. It's alittle different because Gen
Xers tend to be a little morehands off than millennial
parents were. So all of that,does that make sense?
That all comes together. It'skind of world events and
(19:12):
parenting and education side byside molding the way that we
look at leadership. Look at whatshould happen at work.
Mike Coffey (19:22):
And so we talk you said Gen Z is at age seven to
25, which only a small portionof that group has come into the
workforce. And I think about thethe that later group, you know,
that were born 02/2005 to 2015,the last half of that, they've
(19:43):
seen a lot of change in theirformative years and they're not
even in the workforce yet. Imean, they're, you know, 10, 12
years old and with the advent ofAI, the the political discourse
of the last fifteen years, allthe things that they they see
and, you know, I'm wondering ifwe will end up splitting Gen Z
(20:05):
off just because there's been somuch change into Gen Z part one
and Gen Z part two or somethingjust because it seems like that
change has been so radical. Imean, I don't know if there's
any prognostication out thereabout that, but I'm curious, you
know, when we're 97 to twentyfifteen is a pretty broad range
and I'm with the amount ofchange we've had, I wonder if
(20:26):
that'll split. I'm I'm not sure.
Is there anything out there? Isthere any research out there yet
to say that these nine year oldsare are are that different from
the the rest of that cohort?
Shawn Johnson (20:37):
There's not that I know of on Gen Z, but we do
tend to look at generations,like baby boomers. Sometimes
people call younger boomersgeneration Jones because they
were always trying to keep upwith the Joneses, where the
older boomers were moreconcerned about, you know, civil
rights and things like that. Andthe same thing with the
millennials. The youngermillennials have been called IY,
(21:00):
generation y, and they're theones who grew up with eye
technology. So it's verypossible the Gen z you might
separate those that really grewup entering a workplace or
finishing school during thepandemic versus those that were
little kids.
Mike Coffey (21:15):
Interesting.
Shawn Johnson (21:16):
Okay.
Mike Coffey (21:16):
Yeah.
Shawn Johnson (21:17):
So but I haven't seen it yet, but it could be out
there. Someone may have alreadydone some research on this.
Mike Coffey (21:22):
And time will tell I guess. So Yeah. As generations
mature, do we see those valuesand work styles shift? You know,
so what we said, you know, arewe saying the same thing about
Gen X at in our fifties as thatwe said we said about them that
we would have said about them inthe 80, you know, mid eighties
(21:44):
to early nineties? Or do do weas we mature, do the does that
population tend to change?
Shawn Johnson (21:52):
I I think as we mature, we do tend to change.
Jean Twinsch has done a lot ofresearch on this And she says,
one of the things that reallycaught my attention was when she
talks about the fact thatgenerations overall become more
conservative politically andotherwise as they get older. Now
that doesn't mean everyone thatwas at a liberal point of view
(22:15):
as they were young are gonnabecome conservative, but they do
trend that way as they getolder. And there there's a lot
of reasons that that could be.And she goes into in-depth
analysis.
But her book is called general Ithink that's in her generations
book. I'm looking at mybookshelf. But yeah, she's done
a lot of work on that. Yes. Wedo tend to change as we get
(22:36):
older and become a little bitmore like those who came before
us.
It's funny what life will do foryou.
Mike Coffey (22:43):
Yeah. Well, there's that old there's that old saw
that if you're if you're notliberal when when you're young,
you don't have a heart and ifyou're not more conservative
when you're older, you don'thave a brain. I mean, you
Shawn Johnson (22:55):
know, you can get
Mike Coffey (22:56):
more to conserve and hold on to. I don't wanna
get emails about that, but the,you know, and and definitely I
can look back on my my, youknow, thoughts about what the
world should be like, what workshould be like and things like
that and how they've changedover, you know, almost forty
years in the workplace.Actually, than forty because I
got my first job in fifth grade,so fifty years. So, I can see
(23:18):
that and I would I wonder whatthat tells us about, I guess,
just leadership having to bepretty dynamic and really pay
attention to maybe the Gen Z oftoday is in ten years for, you
know, forgive me Gen Zers, maybethey won't be so needy or won't
(23:39):
need that affirmation maybethey'll feel more independent
and and maybe that's becauseworkplaces will respond and give
them that independence. Butmaybe that's what we should talk
about is we've got thesedifferent generations, the
boomers, gen x, millennials andgen z are the primary ones that
are in the workplace.
Kind of go through the highlevel differences between what,
(23:59):
you know, we'd just pick onewhether it's what they expect
from let's talk about what theyexpect from leadership what
meaningful work means to each ofthose and how those would be
different because I think thoseare you've got a by the way, her
book's great and she's got agreat on her website, a great
cheat sheet. We'll put a link toto that in the in the show notes
that you can download this greatPDF that Sean has on her
(24:21):
website. But kind of just gothrough maybe leadership, what
to expect from leadership andand what meaningful work.
Because I'm always concernedabout making sure the work that
people are doing is meaningfulto them so that's it's more than
just going and punching a clock.
Shawn Johnson (24:37):
Yeah. Well, to start off with, I would say that
every generation does wantmeaningful for work, just look
at it differently.
Mike Coffey (24:43):
Mhmm.
Shawn Johnson (24:44):
Know for example, traditionalist would look a
meaningful work is for thegreater good. They grew up in a
world rebuilding after World Wartwo. They still tend to think
about is this for the greatergood. Think outside themselves,
kind of a responsibility focus,know, like we're responsible for
everyone around us. Boomersmight think of meaningful work
as something that helps them intheir career, helps them in
(25:07):
their growth, you know, helpsthem achieve their personal
goals or helps them at thispoint maybe become better
mentors.
Meaningful work might meanmentoring others and bringing
people with them on theirjourney as they get older, they
tend to wanna leave a legacy. Sothat might be more meaningful
work to them. Gen X and I youcould correct me if I'm wrong
(25:28):
here. But I think, you know, GenX like work that's, balanced and
pragmatic and practical andmakes sense to them. They're
very as a generation, verypractical.
And the millennials like workthat's collaborative, that has
purpose. You know, they're thefirst generation to say, what's
my purpose? I have to have apurpose at work. And a lot of
(25:51):
that came out of the way theywere raised, you know, that they
were special. That you have aspecial purpose, a special
meaning.
Some of the older generationsdidn't really get that message
growing up. And then Gen Z, theywanna be authentic. They they
want work to be flexible. Theywant to, you know, be adaptable.
(26:12):
They they're veryentrepreneurial in their work.
So when you think about thingsthat work well for them, you
might think about giving themsome autonomy and allowing them
to discover things. At the sametime, their work's gonna be more
meaningful to them if they getthis constant feedback loop that
they're used to from socialmedia and things like that to
(26:33):
make sure they're on the righttrack. You know, where some of
the older generations would justassume unless no no news is good
news. Right? When you get to theyounger generations, even though
they like that meaningful work,they wanna connect to the bigger
vision and they wanna know thatthey're on track to get there.
They want that reassurance.
Mike Coffey (26:51):
And I wonder if it's just a factor of being
young means you're naturallyimpatient because certainly I
was when I was early in mycareer. But it does seem like
the younger generation,especially Gen Z, is less
comfortable putting in theirtime
Shawn Johnson (27:12):
Mhmm.
Mike Coffey (27:12):
To to advance. That they, you know, they want more
rapid know, they wantacceleration in their career,
want to to move ahead at afaster pace. And that's just my
impression. Is that Yes. Thatreally characteristic to them or
is that all of us when we'reyoung?
Shawn Johnson (27:29):
I think we're all a little impatient when we're
young, but the expectations onceagain, at least when I came to
work, was that you paid yourdues. And you know, I remember
hearing like you, I grew up withgrandparents and great
grandparents and it was goodthings come to those who wait.
Right?
Mike Coffey (27:44):
Right.
Shawn Johnson (27:45):
And and millennials and Gen Z in
particular grew up with goodthings come to you second day
air from Amazon. So you knowYeah. Yeah, fast is good, slow
is bad. That's the that's theworld they grew up in. That's
the message they received fromeverything going on around them
was that everything had to befaster And we as a society were
(28:05):
expecting things to happenfaster as technology increased.
You know, think about it, youknow, where we used to wait for
things more even all of us,every age group got used to
things moving along faster. Andso that's the world they grew up
in. They never grew up in theworld where people said, know,
good things come to those whowait, the early bird gets the
worm, you know. That was not theworld they grew up in.
Mike Coffey (28:29):
So the title of your book is, strategies for
generational inclusion at work.And that term inclusion, like
everything with diversity,equity, inclusion has become a
loaded term and means differentthings to different people. So
when you're talking aboutgeneral generational inclusion,
what does that mean? Let's getthat really clear for for
Shawn Johnson (28:48):
everybody. Sure. Yeah. It it means the, the
seamless blending of the wisdomof experience with the young
ideology and the newperspectives of younger
generations. I I had been inleadership development quite a
few years when I kinda took thispivot into talking about
generations.
And the reason I was so inspiredto do it was because I saw
(29:11):
companies, especially largercorporations pushing people out
by the time they were 60. Theywanted to just put that person
in a corner office and startencouraging them to retire. And
I thought, how short sighted.Because these are people that
intuitively know things that youcan't learn in school and you
can't Google it. You know, youRight.
(29:33):
You know it because you'velearned it through experience.
And at the same time I washearing my younger nieces,
nephews, my children and theirfriends, younger people in my
leadership development classessaying, no one listens to us.
You know, we got all thiseducation and we're excited
about our new job and we try toshare good ideas and we're just
(29:54):
shot down immediately. No onewants to hear what we have to
say. So why did they hire us?
Why are we here? And that's howI got into the, discussion of
inclusion. I know it's a hottopic or has been. Things are
shifting a little bit right inthe DEI space. But it was a hot
it has been a hot topic.
But what happens is when youhave people that don't feel like
(30:15):
they belong because of age,which is something we cannot
help among other things. Wecannot help how old we are.
That's how old we are. Andthere's no sense of belonging.
We feel unappreciated.
Well that's why we used to haveconversations about quiet
quitting Mhmm. Disengagement.Because when you feel like
you're not important and it'ssomething you can't control,
(30:38):
what do you do? You have to havea paycheck so you just kinda go
through the motions.
Mike Coffey (30:43):
Yeah. And you're not not in in some very low
employee engagement. You're notcontributing to the team. The
team doesn't have thatcohesiveness to really, solve
problems and to move ahead. Sowe recognize these differences
and that's interesting, but howcan an employer leverage the
knowledge that we're, you know,that we're that, you know, that
(31:05):
we have about these generationsto create a more inclusive and,
you know, ultimately the keygoal is a more productive
workforce.
Shawn Johnson (31:13):
Yeah. I think that's very important. Thanks
for asking that. And it's a it'sa cultural shift and it has to
come from the top down, topleadership down because you have
to have a climate, a positiveclimate where everyone is
respected. I heard a story lastweek from an executive VP in a
(31:34):
corporation say, he was in ameeting with younger leaders and
he felt like every time he saidsomething, they looked at him
like, you're old, you're grumpyand you don't know anything and
we got better ideas and yeah,just like go sit in the corner.
Mike Coffey (31:50):
Mhmm.
Shawn Johnson (31:50):
And that's not helpful and that's coming from
the top levels of thatcorporation that they're not
setting a tone for respectingacross the board. At the same
time, you know, younger ideasshould be respected too. And
then there should be a safepositive environment where we
can discuss and and have thosehave those ideas and those
(32:10):
differences collide in apositive way. Because what that
does is expand options. We starthaving conversations about
things that we would have neverthought of if we were busy
shutting each other down orstaying in our little silo of
thought.
So it's a top down culturalshift to look at our differences
as opportunities rather thanproblems.
Mike Coffey (32:32):
And that's interesting because as I press
the bell curve of age groups andstart to go down on the other
side in my volunteer activities,my board activities, and in my
own company, sometimes I'll hearan idea and my first reaction
will be, yeah, we tried that.And, you know, or yeah, that
(32:55):
won't work because we've donethis rather than hearing the
idea out. So definitely there'ssomething on I think with, you
know, with the the higherexperienced people, you know,
because maybe we did try it andmaybe it didn't work. But maybe
it didn't work because of thepeople that were trying it or
the technology available or thecircumstances. And maybe a
(33:17):
different perspective could makethis thing happen and maybe we
need to stop and hear theseideas from from young people.
But on and on the flip side, Iwould say that, you know, maybe
the the the young people need tosay, okay, you did try that.
Tell me about what happenedthere. Maybe we can learn from
that too and flip thatconversation, oh, you know, and
take some of the initiative to,not shut down that idea, you
(33:40):
know, that this won't work, butunderstand why maybe it didn't
before and how we plan againstagainst that into the future.
Shawn Johnson (33:48):
That's absolutely the right thing to do. Yeah. And
me being older too, there aretimes that there are
conversations that I get fromyounger people where I'm like,
oh, no no no no, please. But ifwe can take a step back, hear
each other out, and then reallytalk through it without feeling
threatened. No one should feelthreatened.
It doesn't have to be my idea oryour idea. Once again, that's
(34:10):
that's kind of a mind shift.Right? You know, because it's
hard sometimes to hear thatwe're wrong or we don't know
what we're talking about. Butthose are the important
conversations where we canreally leverage the older
experience, the younger brightfresh perspectives, and come up
with possibilities that wewouldn't otherwise.
But there it is important and Ithink this came up in this
(34:31):
conversation with this executiveis that he was watching things
happen that had failed in thepast. And it just seemed like,
you know, the whole group wasrunning in the wrong direction,
gonna make the same mistakes andthey didn't wanna hear about
what happened in the past. So itis that balance between let's
listen to what what's worked inthe past and then let's also
(34:54):
listen to how we might changethat a little bit and avoid some
of the the mistakes and and comeup with a better way, better way
to do things, better way toapproach things.
Mike Coffey (35:04):
Well, that sounds like a perfect place to end it.
But thank you for joining metoday, Sean. That was great.
Shawn Johnson (35:11):
Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed
being here, Mike.
Mike Coffey (35:15):
And you can reach Sean at SeanJohnsonSpeaks dot
com.
Shawn Johnson (35:20):
Link is It's
Mike Coffey (35:21):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Shawn Johnson (35:22):
It's SeanSeanJohnsonSpeaks.com.
Mike Coffey (35:24):
Oh, yeah. SeanSpeaks.com or you can go to
her websiteSeanJohnsonSpeaks.com and we
will include all those contactsin her in the show notes. And
thank you for listening. If youenjoyed this episode, please
write us a review on ApplePodcasts, Spotify, YouTube,
wherever you listen, and thenshare this episode with your
(35:46):
favorite show social mediaplatform. It really does help us
reach more listeners.
And we'd love to hear yourthoughts at goodmorninghr.com.
Rob Upchurch is our technicalproducer, and you can reach him
at rob makes pods dot com. Andthank you to Imperative's
marketing coordinator Mary AnneHernandez who keeps the trains
running on time. And I'm MikeCoffey. As always, please don't
(36:10):
hesitate to reach out if I canbe of service to you personally
or professionally.
I'll see you next week. Anduntil then, be well, do good,
and keep your chin up.
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