April 10, 2025 • 35 mins
In episode 195, Coffey talks with Diane Allen about achieving flow state at work to maximize productivity, creativity, and fulfillment.
They discuss the definition of flow as an optimal state of mind where people perform and feel their best; the neurological and physiological aspects of flow including the release of performance-enhancing hormones; how the intersection of skill, challenge, and purpose creates entry points into flow; the impact of workplace interruptions on productivity; how individuals can identify their unique flow strategy; the mechanics of creating group flow in teams; practical workplace design elements that support flow states.
Diane will be a keynote speaker at the North Texas SHRM Annual Conference on April 28-29, 2025. You can register for that event at https://ntxshrm.org/event-5716977.
Good Morning, HR is brought to you by Imperative—Bulletproof Background Checks. For more information about our commitment to quality and excellent customer service, visit us at https://imperativeinfo.com.
If you are an HRCI or SHRM-certified professional, this episode of Good Morning, HR has been pre-approved for half a recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information for this episode, visit https://goodmorninghr.com.
About our Guest:
Violinist Diane Allen is an international speaker, thought leader, and best-selling author of Flow: Unlock Your Genius, Love What You Do. She helps leaders and teams activate their flow state, enabling them to navigate disruption, combat burnout, and create thriving cultures where purpose and passion drive peak performance.
Her journey into the transformative power of flow began as a young violinist. Feeling bullet-proof with her New York City violin training, she’d show up to auditions with visions of winning the job of her dreams, but fear would get the better part of her.
After ten years of experimentation, Diane made a breakthrough. By focusing deeply on her musical interpretation, she activated the flow state, an optimal state of mind where fear dissolves, and performance soars beyond one’s imagination.
It only took one fearless audition for Diane to become a 15-year Concertmaster (lead violinist) of the Central Oregon Symphony, a beloved violin teacher for 28 years, and author of the Fingerboard Workbook series for violin, viola, cello and bass.
It was her groundbreaking Flow Strategy™ system that earned her a spot on the TEDxNaperville stage with features on TED, ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX.
With the elegance of drawing the bow across her Copper Dragon violin, Diane’s experiential programs blend live musical performance, scientific principles, storytelling, positive psychology, inspiration, and actionable takeaways, empowering people to activate their flow state, be in their genius, and love what they do.
Diane Allen can be reached at:
TEDx/TED Talk
https://dianeallen.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianeallenspeaker/
https://www.instagram.com/dianeallenspeaker/
https://www.facebook.com/dianeallenspeaker/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZOk_r1n2X2FmbRcoiUhIHQ
About Mike Coffey:
Mike Coffey is an entrepreneur, licensed private investigator, business strategist, HR consultant, and registered yoga teacher.
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Diane Allen (00:00):
At the intersection of skill, challenge, purpose is
the universal entry point intoflow. But first, think about it.
A skill without a challenge, notgoing to ignite anything. A
challenge without a skill, notgoing to ignite anything. It's
the two together that activatesflow and brings out the best in
(00:24):
us.
And when you add purpose tothat, it takes it to a whole new
level.
Mike Coffey (00:34):
Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of
Imperative, bulletproofbackground checks with fast and
friendly service. And this isthe podcast where I talk to
business leaders about bringingpeople together to create value
for shareholders, customers, andthe community. I've long been
interested in the idea of flowor being in the zone that a
(00:54):
person can enter into a focusedstate of mind where you're
firing at all cylinders, youdon't have any distractions or
you aren't looking for any andyou just get shit done whether
that means being creative orsimply moving through your to do
list checking things off.Joining me today to discuss the
flow state and how to build awork environment that supports
it is Diane Allen.
(01:16):
Diane is author of flow unlockyour genius love what you do.
She's a concert violinist andspent fifteen years as the
concert master at the CentralOregon Symphony. Today she helps
leaders and teams activate theirflow state enabling them to
navigate disruption, combatburnout, and create thriving
(01:36):
cultures where purpose andpassion drive peak performance.
She's also a popular conferencespeaker, TEDx presenter, and
featured media guest. Diane willbe the keynote speaker at the
North Texas SHRM AnnualConference on April.
Welcome to Good Morning HR,Diane.
Diane Allen (01:53):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Mike Coffey (01:57):
Well, I'm looking forward to your presentation
because this is like one ofthose things as a, you know, I'm
a yoga teacher and we talk aboutflow all the time. I always, you
know, often speak about at thebeginning of a class, whatever
happened before you got heretoday, whatever you got planned
for later on in the day, youknow, set that outside the door,
let this next hour just be youand your flow. And what I'm
(02:19):
talking about there is, youknow, focus on on your body, on
your breath and just being fullypresent. But you're you're you
know, a concert violinist,you've spent probably countless
hours in practice rooms andrehearsals. And so how did you
get interested in flow andespecially at the level that you
(02:40):
wrote a book about it?
Diane Allen (02:43):
Well, I didn't have a choice because when a musician
gets into the music, they'regetting into their flow state.
When an athlete gets into thezone, they're getting into their
flow state. And flow is it's Ithink we should just quickly
(03:03):
define it because when whenyou're going with the flow,
that's passive. That is actuallykind of, you know, rolling with
it and maybe just, you know,letting things roll off your
shoulders, you know, kind ofquickly. But on the contrary,
being in flow is being in theflow state, which is an optimal
(03:26):
state of mind when people feeltheir best and they perform
their best.
There's neuroscience that setsus up to experience peak
performance, to feel euphoric,to feel motivated, and to feel
fulfilled. So there's a bigdifference between going with
the flow and being in flow. Andso what that looks like as a
(03:46):
musician, as I said, is gettinginto the music. And so,
originally, I've been teachingabout getting into flow for a
very, very, very long time. Itstarted off with my tiny little
violin students, which I knewthat if I didn't give them a
good reason to stick withlearning like one of the hardest
instruments to learn, it wasgonna be an uphill battle to
(04:09):
teach them.
So I would teach them how to getinto the music as quickly as
possible and to access flow asquickly as possible. Because
flow are you know, it's thosemoments when, you know, you lose
complete track of time. You justlove what you're doing. You're
you're so immersed. It's as ifnothing else is around you.
Ideas and insights are comingin. In a world where 95% of
(04:32):
thoughts repeat, you're havingnew thoughts, you're getting
more done. Right? Productivitygoes up 400% when you're in
flow, learning speed 250%, andcreativity goes up 500%. So
bottom line, as a violinist, asthe concert master, which is the
(04:54):
lead violinist of an orchestra,second in command to the
conductor, I had to always be inthe music and get into flow.
And it served me to reallydeeply connect with my work, to
be able to lead with energy, andto be able to enroll all the
people on stage without everspeaking a single word. So
(05:18):
there's a lot to unpack there,but that's the basic background
for you know, as last thing II'd like to say about your
opening question is everyonegets into flow. It happens to
all of us. It just happens to bethat musicians and athletes rely
heavily on it for us to bedeeply engaged and at the best.
(05:41):
So I've, you know, as a longtime teacher, I've broken it
down so that I could teacheverybody how to get into their
work like a musician gets intothe music.
Mike Coffey (05:52):
So is that ability to get in that flow, is that
limited to something that youreally really care about and I
mean you're really passionateabout? Is in and is it like just
a personal anecdotal experienceor is there is there science
around it to say this is what itlooks like physiologically when
(06:12):
you're in flow?
Diane Allen (06:13):
Yes. To all of that. Okay. Yes.
Physiologically, what happens isis that the peak performance
hormones that get released arean endomidae, endorphins,
dopamine, serotonin, andnorepinephrine.
This is what sets people up to,you know, be at their best and
(06:33):
experience, you know you know,moments of of you know, it's to
the point where your innercritic is even gone. Right? Your
fight or flight response shutsoff. So you feel uninhibited.
You feel fearless, and you'rejust basically rocking it.
Yes. Those moments when you getmore done in thirty minutes than
you had in last three days, youknow, that's that's an example.
(06:55):
And I think everybody hasexperienced flow. Key indicators
of flow are losing a sense oftime, losing a sense of self.
Those ideas and insights comingin from out of the blue, things
coming together with the senseof ease.
You're in a positive feedbackloop. So a negative feedback
loop is when you're pouringyourself into your work and
there's no energy coming backand you get drained. Positive
(07:16):
feedback loop is your work is sorewarding, it ends up refueling
you. And overall, you feel morewhole, happy and fulfilled.
Mike Coffey (07:24):
Is it mostly around creative enterprises then or is
it also I mean, if I'm anaccountant or a bookkeeper,
let's say, and I'm enteringledger entries all day long, is
there flow behind that or is itreally just more on creative
work?
Diane Allen (07:39):
Yes. To everything.
Mike Coffey (07:41):
I'm batting a thousand a day.
Diane Allen (07:43):
Whenever I every time I you know, I've spoken at
a lot of SHRM conferences. Andwhenever I say, raise of hands,
how many of you lose your allsense of time when you're
working on an Excel spreadsheet?There are people, I would say, a
good 30 or, you know, 40 peoplewho, like, shoot their hands up.
Right? So the way I like todescribe my thought leadership
(08:07):
on flow, which stemmed from avery embarrassing experience
where I was at a concert, I hada massive interruption, and I
kept going.
But once I got going, I wascompletely disconnected. I was
(08:27):
literally going through themotions. I was just playing the
notes. So, you know, that's thedifference between doing your
job and and, you know, reallyengaging in your job. Right?
And it was very disturbing. Andthat night, I literally sat down
to reverse engineer how you getinto flow because flow falls
(08:48):
under the umbrella of positivepsychology. And positive
psychology, it's all abouttaking a look at what's working
well in your life, reverseengineering it so you can create
more of that goodness. And I wasjust, you know, I was just so
embarrassed, and I knew that ifI didn't crack this nut, right,
(09:08):
if I ever had a a bump in theroad like that again, that I
would really benefit greatly ifI knew how I uniquely got into
flow. So I came up with, youknow, just sitting on the couch
literally grilling myself withquestions and I realized I was
asking myself three questions.
Where? Where am I when I getinto the flow state the most?
(09:30):
What am I doing? On the outside,I'm playing the violin. But on
the inside, I had to think aboutit.
And I realized, you know, it's alot like reading out loud to my
son, sharing the message andsharing the experience together.
And I was like, well, that feelsexactly what it's like when I
(09:52):
am, you know, deeply engagedwith the music and and providing
that musical interpretation thatpeople expect. And then I was
like, okay. Well, that feelsright. What about those concerts
when I moved to tears?
And I realized there was apattern to those concerts. They
were always audience singalongs. And I realized there's
(10:14):
something about a group ofpeople. I experienced it in yoga
class too. When you have a groupof people doing one thing
together, right, it unifies youand that just brings out the
tears and that is my purpose.
So knowing that, what I callflow strategy, what you do on
(10:35):
the inside is your mostcompelling internal self
motivator. It's that thing thatmakes you tick. It's like your
secret sauce. And when you coulddefine what that is for
yourself, you can shift intoyour flow state on purpose. And
when you can also define yourwhat's so meaningful for you,
your why, you know, so manydifferent people say, you know,
(10:56):
figure out your why, right?
In this case, I'm like, why isit so meaningful? It's usually
the values that are so loftythat pull the best out of
ourselves, like peace and loveand unity and freedom and
equality. Right? And so, whenyou can define why it's so
meaningful for you, can shiftinto the flow state with
(11:18):
purpose. And so, this is yourflow strategy.
And I have been speaking aboutthis to a number of HR
conferences. And when I talkabout what I'm going to do at
the Northwest is it North?
Mike Coffey (11:34):
North Texas. North Texas. Yeah.
Diane Allen (11:37):
Yeah. I live in the Pacific Northwest, so that came
out of my mouth first. But theNorth Texas SHRM conference,
we're going to have ample timefor people to figure out their
own unique way to get into flow,but they're also going to learn
how to coach each other tofigure out each other's flow
strategies. Because if you'vegot an employee coming in and
(11:59):
they're frustrated, they want tobe you know, we all want to be
more engaged. It's and, youknow, having it be meaningful
experience, you know, you'llhave tools to coach you through
the experience.
Mike Coffey (12:12):
So if flow is that, you know, that internal focus,
that that connection with apurpose, what kind of things
distract or interfere with fromfrom being in flow?
Interruptions. Interruptions.Okay. So, that's a workplace
101, right?
Diane Allen (12:28):
They are the especially quick questions.
Yeah. Here's the difference. Ifyou know how uniquely get into
flow, then when you do have aninterruption, you can get back
to it much quicker. So
Mike Coffey (12:45):
yeah, those interruptions and in fact we we
realized a few years ago here atmy company that my best
employees, my most proficientanalysts were becoming my least
productive because of theconstant interruptions from
either their peers, who wouldsay hey, I've got this unique
(13:06):
situation, I've got a questionOr clients calling in and
saying, hey, I've got a questionor, you know, what would you do
here, whatever. And that meantwhile they were being helpful,
their own productivity was downand and we set up a process so
that we created a new roleclient liaisons who are the
frontline who all those calls gothrough. I mean they're in, you
(13:28):
know, what and we set up officehours so that people could set
aside if it's not truly urgentinternally, you know, there's
there's somebody who can stopand answer their questions in a
block and at a certain time justso we weren't peppering my most
valuable employees with withinterruptions all day. And it's
probably not a horrible thingfor the other employees to
(13:49):
figure stuff out and then comeback with an answer rather than
just saying what's going on. SoI guess I I wasn't thinking
about it as flow at that time,but the fact that they can knock
out a ton more work withoutthose interruptions even though
those, you know, resetting thoseinterruptions, you know, that
interruption may be thirtysecond but it seems like
resetting it and getting backinto flow or, know, that high
(14:12):
level of productivity is four orfive, six minutes maybe and then
here comes another call.
So I guess we were setting upflow and we didn't really think
about it in that term.
Diane Allen (14:20):
Mhmm.
Mike Coffey (14:22):
So what other things in the workplace besides
avoiding distractions might helpcreate an environment where flow
work is promoted?
Diane Allen (14:30):
I want to share another model with you. So when
I talked about the threequestions where, what and why,
that was my own unique thoughtleadership really trying to
discover what makes you tick sothat you can replicate that on
purpose and with purpose. Right?But Mihai Cheeksentmihai, he's
(14:51):
one of the very firstpsychologists who did in-depth
research into flow. And he has awonderful book that talks about
many different ways to get intoflow.
And I'd like to share this oneevery time I speak because you
should see the lightbulbs goingoff in people's heads when they
hear this. So according toCsikszentmihalyi, at the
intersection of skill,challenge, and purpose is the
(15:15):
universal entry point into flow.
Mike Coffey (15:17):
Okay. Wait. That's skill, challenge. Sorry for
interrupting your flow, butskill, challenge, and purpose.
Diane Allen (15:23):
Purpose. Think of a three circle Venn diagram.
Right? But first, think aboutit. A skill without a challenge,
not going to ignite anything.
A challenge without a skill, notgoing to ignite anything.
Mike Coffey (15:41):
Except frustration. Right. Yeah.
Diane Allen (15:42):
It's the two together Yeah. That activates
flow and brings out the best inus. And when you add purpose to
that, it takes it to a whole newlevel. And volunteer work is a
perfect example. You've got agroup of people with a variety
of skills coming together toface a challenge and doing it
(16:02):
all for a purpose.
And in this environment, we knowpeople love volunteer work. You
know, like bring on the hardwork. Right? There's
collaboration. People who don'teven know each other come
together.
Ideas and insights are popping.You've got all those key
indicators of being in flow. Sohow can you create that into
your daily life? It's simply touse that as a lens to look
(16:24):
through. Maybe you can useskill, challenge, and purpose as
an assessment tool or as aplanning tool.
And so I have a few examples Ireally wanna share with you.
Let's start with Alaska Sherm.
Mike Coffey (16:36):
Okay.
Diane Allen (16:37):
There was somebody in the audience who was the
person who viewed all of theworkplace injury forms. Right?
This was their piece of thepuzzle, that they had to see all
these forms and do the work thatthey do with them. And this
skill challenge purpose thing,he came running up to me after I
(17:02):
spoke. Here's what he said.
Fishing industry. Right? So hetaught he described two
different jobs. First job isyou've got people who wash the
fish. It's a conveyor belt.
The fish go by all day. Theywash their fish. Then you have
these other people who have toput their whole body into this
(17:26):
machine, and they I'm gesturingthe the way he gestured to me
where his hands are up and youhave to pull this machine down
with all your might. It'sprocessing the fish. And as
you're pulling this, you have toput your whole body into it.
It's very physical. And the workthat you do, you see the
(17:47):
processed fish. You see itaccumulating alongside, so you
can see the results of yourwork. And then he describes this
to me and he says, okay, whowhich job has more workplace
injuries? What do you think,Mike?
Mike Coffey (18:04):
Well, I would have said the the intuitive one would
be the one with the heavyequipment and and the, you know,
the piles of fish all around.But you're gonna tell me
otherwise, I think.
Diane Allen (18:15):
Yeah. It's the people washing the fish.
Interesting. He said, herealized it's because there's no
skill, there's no challenge, andthere's no purpose at all. And
he was convinced that he couldgamify this.
Maybe he can have a skillscontest with people or have them
have some fun with it. Give themsome challenges. And then he
(18:38):
realized that importance ofseeing the feedback of their
work, right, because without it,it's just like this long endless
thing. And then we didn't Idon't remember what he said
about purpose, but the skill andchallenge alone is, you know,
honestly, the gaming industry isall built on flow. It's all
built on that dance betweenskill and challenge.
(19:00):
You know, you're
Mike Coffey (19:01):
working on Well, and I guess that's you hear
about all these people who go tocasinos and they look up and the
three hours have passed. Yes.And they look up when they're
when their pockets are empty andwonder what happened. And Yeah.
So I guess that you're right.
I never I never thought aboutthat. Yeah. Well, I guess social
media is probably built onsomething very similar because
it you get sucked into scrollingthrough your social media, you
(19:26):
get the little dopamine hits andyou just time disappears. It's I
mean, there's probably anegative version of
Diane Allen (19:33):
Let's talk about that.
Mike Coffey (19:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Diane Allen (19:34):
Because that kind of dopamine hit is like eating
cheap candy. It's like in themoment, it tastes great, but
then afterwards, you feelcrappy.
Mike Coffey (19:43):
Okay. Right.
Diane Allen (19:44):
That's I'm blanking on the name for that. I wanna
say it's something like hyperfocus. It's a you know, there's
a lot of different ways thatpeople can get into flow, and
there's different degrees towhich you can get into flow. You
can say there's differentflavors of it. Right?
And what I'm talking about iswhen I'm talking about flow, I
am talking about the kind that'svery satisfying, that keeps you
(20:07):
engaged with your work. It's whyyou come back the next day. It's
why all of a sudden people aresaying 05:00 already? Can't wait
to come back tomorrow.
Mike Coffey (20:17):
And let's take a quick break. Good morning HR is
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(20:38):
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(21:01):
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episode one ninety five andenter the keyword flow.
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imperativeinfo.com. And now backto my conversation with Diane
Allen. So I like that ideabecause it it plays both ways.
Right?
That skill and challengecombination because you hear
about people who are maybeoverqualified for a job and and
have a hard time getting thingsdone. And then on the other
(21:45):
side, if it if the job's toohard, if I if I if I just get
frustrated, I build anxietybecause I can't do this thing
that would interrupt as well.
Diane Allen (21:55):
Yes. So let's go a little deeper. If you think of
skill and remember, we'rethinking about a three circle
die Venn diagram. If you thinkof skill and challenge as dials,
you could be underskilled,overskilled, have just the right
amount of skill. You could beunder challenged, over
challenged, have just the rightamount of challenge.
Challenge is subjective, right?So you really have to check-in
(22:20):
with people. One person's bighairy audacious goal is gonna
crumble somebody else. So youhave to find the right mix and
it's usually just a titch out ofyour comfort zone that's going
to ignite flow. So when I spokefor the Northwest Human
Resources Management Conference,there was a woman there.
She said she knowingly hiredsomebody who's overqualified for
(22:41):
the job. She had been verynervous about retaining her. She
didn't know how to broach thetopic. She didn't know how to
talk with her. But when she sawthis model, she says, I know
exactly how to talk with her.
I'm going to ask her what skillsshe'd like to learn. I'm going
to ask her what kind ofchallenges she's like and ask
her, you know, if she's findingenough purpose. There was
(23:01):
another woman at the sameconference, she shared that
learning a new skill, which weall have to do these days, is a
challenge and purpose can keepyou motivated. But once that
skill is honed, you've gotta reshake things up. That's where
planning comes in place.
Right? You've gotta re challengeit and maybe even find new
purpose.
Mike Coffey (23:21):
That's interesting. My number three son, my
youngest, is a junior at themusic conservatory at Oberlin.
Always try to find a way to workin one of my three sons in here
in Bragg. I always said I wasn'tgonna be that parent who thought
their kids were all that allthat, but then I didn't that was
before I knew I was gonna havekids who were all that. But
number three, he's a he's aclarinet performance major and I
(23:44):
I see him the first, you know,when I see him perform with his
quintet or in otherenvironments, it's a different
kid than the one who's sittingon my couch eating potato chips
watching Netflix during, youknow, when he's home from
school.
And he is he's focused and Iguess that would be flow. I've
(24:04):
I've not thought about it thatway, but it always hits me that
he's doing something that heloves, that's really that he's
really good at and that he'sworked at. Yes. I guess that's
really a big part of that andthat's interesting.
Diane Allen (24:16):
It is. I my son struggled in high school, full
on teenage rebellion. Normal.Right? They're supposed to rebel
at that age as part of the thegrowing process.
But the second he graduated, hewent straight to the local
municipal airport and he hired aflight instructor. And now he's
(24:38):
flying Learjets. Okay?
Mike Coffey (24:39):
Oh,
Diane Allen (24:39):
wow. 27 year old flying Learjets. Now here's the
deal. My my brother-in-law, heused to operate a crane at a
plant that they were buildingtrain engines. And his job was
to turn the engine around sothat they could do the next part
(25:00):
of the work.
Right? It's some sort ofassembly line. But the problem
with this particular crane is isthat if you if you get it and
they're just the wrong way, thisthing will start swinging out of
control and become deadly. Okay?And so, you know, both my
brother-in-law and both my son,these jobs require that level of
(25:25):
deep focus.
They require excellence at alltimes. And so, you know, I
talked earlier about, you know,as a violinist or as an athlete
that we rely heavily on being inflow. When you see your son in
flow, I've seen my son in flow.I know my brother-in-law had to
be in flow to do that job. Butnot everybody has a life or
(25:48):
death.
Right? Yeah. Experience, youknow, with that their job is a
life or death thing. But itdoesn't mean that you can't
enjoy, you know, the the elationthat people experience from
doing excellent work and frombeing at your best. That's, you
know, all about selfactualization and and fulfilling
(26:09):
on your potential.
Mike Coffey (26:10):
So let's let's talk about group performance
Diane Allen (26:14):
Yes.
Mike Coffey (26:14):
Then and group flow because, like, I've individually
people can be in flow, but thenyou get them, you know, Miles
Davis, John Coltrane, CannonballAdderley, Bill Evans altogether
in 1958 and you get Kinda Blueand, you know, one of the best
jazz albums of all time. All andyou listen to that and all four
(26:34):
of them were clearly in flowed,but they were also listening to
each other. They're playing oneach other. How does a group
flow how do you create a groupflow? How does that happen?
Diane Allen (26:45):
So as the lead violinist of an orchestra, I
created that and I'll give youthe the mechanics of it as well.
So first, I would have to leadmyself. Right? You always have
to lead yourself to lead others.
Mike Coffey (27:03):
Sure. Yeah.
Diane Allen (27:04):
So, I had to lead myself first to be in flow, to
be at my best, to be deeplyconnected with the music and
deeply connected with theconductor because he and I were
steering the whole ship. Right?And so, according to the
HeartMath Institute, when youare engaged in purpose, right,
(27:27):
and you're in this deep level offlow, you are actually
activating the 40,000 neurons inyour heart. The electromagnetic
field of the heart reaches out60% more than the
electromagnetic field of thebrain. So when you are in your
(27:48):
heart space, right, what doesthat mean?
It means that you're in purpose,right? It can mean many other
things as well. But right now,we're just talking about when
you are coming from a place ofpurpose, you are igniting those
40,000 neurons in your heart.Your energy is now exuding three
feet all around you. And anybodyin that sphere is going to sense
(28:09):
that.
It's basically the the energy ofenthusiasm. We all know somebody
who, you know, they've got pizzanight on Friday nights and they
get so enthusiastic about it.Right? Maybe they make their own
and maybe you're not so into it,but they invite you over and you
can't help it. You getenthusiastic with them because
they're so enthusiastic.
So being in flow, completely anddeeply in flow becomes the
(28:34):
energy of influence. Now thosepeople in my three foot circle,
they're going to sync up becausethat's what people do. We sync
up. Now, they are exuding theirthree foot circles around them.
The people behind them, itbecomes this ripple effect to
the point where the audiencegets looped in as well.
And that's how you ignite groupflow by first leading yourself
(28:58):
to lead others.
Mike Coffey (29:00):
Interesting. So and and we've all seen that where
one person has an idea that youread it on paper, it sounds like
a kooky idea and you know, for abusiness or whatever and I've
seen my share of them over theyears and then you meet the
person and suddenly it seemsachievable. I mean, and I'm
sure, you know, everybody fromJeff Bezos to Elon Musk to any
(29:23):
of those folks who've builtphenomenal companies that nobody
dreamed of or thought wasthought were nuts, they've
probably got that ability toexcite and motivate and
incentivize other people. Andand so what you're saying is
that is the first part aboutgetting somebody into into the
rest of a team into a flow stateis to have a leader. Yep.
(29:45):
What about this yeah. Go ahead.
Diane Allen (29:46):
I have another example. Okay? Using the skill
challenge purpose model. Thiswas a group of high school math
teachers. They were they had agrant.
Their task was to developcurriculum that teenage math
students could relate to. Sothat's the purpose. Right? It's
already there in the in thetask. The teachers, they were
all very highly skilled, andthey entered this with, you
(30:10):
know, a lot of creativity andbrainstorming.
They were just popping, popping,popping. Got to a point where
they stalled, And a friend ofmine was part of this cohort,
she asked me to come in. So wewere taking a look at what was
going on and throughconversation, I started to
realize each person on this teamhad a different concept of what
(30:33):
the current challenge was. Andas soon as they each voiced what
they thought what the challengewas, well, you can already tell
what's happening. Now that theyhear where they're really at,
they can now unify and addresseach one of those challenges.
And then it just ended up, youknow, getting back to where they
were. So, you know, sometimesthat using that model was
(30:55):
really, really helpful toidentify, like, what's missing?
You know? You gotta have allthree of those equally present.
Mike Coffey (31:02):
Skill, challenge, purpose. That's really a that's
that's that's really that's I Imight have to think about that.
That's really an interestingconcept. We're almost done, but
if I was designing a workplaceor a work environment, I'm
guessing off the top of my headthe things that I need to think
about if I really wannaencourage flow status. Again,
the amount of distractions.
(31:23):
The thing that I've always hatedin job descriptions is
multitasking required becausewhat you're really saying is
serial tasking and, you know,it's it's okay to have a lot of
accountabilities, but at anygiven time I want you to be able
to focus in on one thing and getthat thing done. So, I'd wanna
avoid true multitasking, try todoing trying to do three things
at once. What other workplacedesign things would you put into
(31:48):
place to help a team work inflow?
Diane Allen (31:51):
Yeah. So I'm gonna call you out on one thing. I
work with somebody who has ADHDand he is a master at
multitasking. In fact, he hethinks it's his gift for the
work that he does. He's a he's aland acquisition manager for a
real estate developer, andthings are always popping.
(32:11):
So you never know. Like, younever know. Somebody might
thrive in multitasking, whereasI think there might be a
majority of people that don't.You know, I think we've all seen
the stats on that, but there arepeople who do. So when you're
thinking about team right, isthat what your question was?
Mike Coffey (32:29):
Right.
Diane Allen (32:29):
Yeah. I think that it's a combination of everything
that we've talked about. Youknow, a designated block of time
that I recommend is ninetyminutes of uninterrupted time.
That gives you the chance tokind of, like, you know, into
flow, get into a peak of it, andthen kind of have a wind down.
(32:52):
And and, you know, knowing thatyou've got that blocked off,
nobody's allowed to you know, nointerruptions allowed.
Right? Really insulate that. Ithink magic can happen. Also,
having these tools that wetalked about, How does each
person uniquely get into flow?Right?
How can they use skill,challenge, and purpose? And
using these tools. You know,it's also helpful, I would say,
(33:15):
yes, you might uniquely know howyou personally get into flow,
but what if you also knew whatyour other teammates, you know,
what's their secret sauce,right? What makes them tick?
What's their purpose?
You've got personal purpose,you've got organizational
purpose, you've got projectpurpose, right? So, you know,
(33:35):
using all of those differentlevels to really clearly define,
I think, also helps to, youknow, create, you know, the
environment that will reallyhelp teams to thrive.
Mike Coffey (33:46):
That's really, really interesting. I can't wait
to hear the rest of yourpresentation. I we barely
scratched the surface. Andyou're presenting again at the
North Texas SHRM AnnualConference on April. That's all
the time we have today.
Thanks for joining me, Diane.
Diane Allen (34:05):
My pleasure.
Mike Coffey (34:06):
Diane's contact information and all her other
resources and including a linkto her book are going to be in
the show notes. And again, youcan hear Diane's keynote at
North Texas SHERM's annualconference on April, and I will
include a link to all thatinformation in the show notes as
well. And I'll also be there. Iwill be recording a podcast live
(34:29):
from the stage. We're workingwithout a net, and so it'll be
it'll be interesting.
And so if you wanna see me getinto flow or fall on my face,
we'll see what happens. Butit'll be April 29 in Denton,
Texas at the North Texas SHRMconference. And thank you for
listening. If you enjoyed thisepisode, please write us a
(34:51):
review on your favorite podcastapp, whether it's Apple,
Spotify, wherever you get yourpodcast. It helps people find
us.
Also, do your friends a solid.If you like this episode, find
Good Morning HR on your favoritesocial media and share it. And
we'd love to hear your thoughtsabout this episode at
(35:13):
goodmorninghr.com. Thank you toour producer Rob Upchurch and to
Imperative's marketingcoordinator Mary Anne Hernandez.
And I'm Mike Coffey.
As always, don't hesitate toreach out if I can be of service
to you personally orprofessionally. I'll see you
next week. And until then, bewell, do good, and keep your
chin up.
At the intersection of skill, challenge, purpose is
the universal entry point intoflow. But first, think about it.
A skill without a challenge, notgoing to ignite anything. A
challenge without a skill, notgoing to ignite anything. It's
the two together that activatesflow and brings out the best in
(00:24):
us.
And when you add purpose tothat, it takes it to a whole new
level.
Mike Coffey (00:34):
Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of
Imperative, bulletproofbackground checks with fast and
friendly service. And this isthe podcast where I talk to
business leaders about bringingpeople together to create value
for shareholders, customers, andthe community. I've long been
interested in the idea of flowor being in the zone that a
(00:54):
person can enter into a focusedstate of mind where you're
firing at all cylinders, youdon't have any distractions or
you aren't looking for any andyou just get shit done whether
that means being creative orsimply moving through your to do
list checking things off.Joining me today to discuss the
flow state and how to build awork environment that supports
it is Diane Allen.
(01:16):
Diane is author of flow unlockyour genius love what you do.
She's a concert violinist andspent fifteen years as the
concert master at the CentralOregon Symphony. Today she helps
leaders and teams activate theirflow state enabling them to
navigate disruption, combatburnout, and create thriving
(01:36):
cultures where purpose andpassion drive peak performance.
She's also a popular conferencespeaker, TEDx presenter, and
featured media guest. Diane willbe the keynote speaker at the
North Texas SHRM AnnualConference on April.
Welcome to Good Morning HR,Diane.
Diane Allen (01:53):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Mike Coffey (01:57):
Well, I'm looking forward to your presentation
because this is like one ofthose things as a, you know, I'm
a yoga teacher and we talk aboutflow all the time. I always, you
know, often speak about at thebeginning of a class, whatever
happened before you got heretoday, whatever you got planned
for later on in the day, youknow, set that outside the door,
let this next hour just be youand your flow. And what I'm
(02:19):
talking about there is, youknow, focus on on your body, on
your breath and just being fullypresent. But you're you're you
know, a concert violinist,you've spent probably countless
hours in practice rooms andrehearsals. And so how did you
get interested in flow andespecially at the level that you
(02:40):
wrote a book about it?
Diane Allen (02:43):
Well, I didn't have a choice because when a musician
gets into the music, they'regetting into their flow state.
When an athlete gets into thezone, they're getting into their
flow state. And flow is it's Ithink we should just quickly
(03:03):
define it because when whenyou're going with the flow,
that's passive. That is actuallykind of, you know, rolling with
it and maybe just, you know,letting things roll off your
shoulders, you know, kind ofquickly. But on the contrary,
being in flow is being in theflow state, which is an optimal
(03:26):
state of mind when people feeltheir best and they perform
their best.
There's neuroscience that setsus up to experience peak
performance, to feel euphoric,to feel motivated, and to feel
fulfilled. So there's a bigdifference between going with
the flow and being in flow. Andso what that looks like as a
(03:46):
musician, as I said, is gettinginto the music. And so,
originally, I've been teachingabout getting into flow for a
very, very, very long time. Itstarted off with my tiny little
violin students, which I knewthat if I didn't give them a
good reason to stick withlearning like one of the hardest
instruments to learn, it wasgonna be an uphill battle to
(04:09):
teach them.
So I would teach them how to getinto the music as quickly as
possible and to access flow asquickly as possible. Because
flow are you know, it's thosemoments when, you know, you lose
complete track of time. You justlove what you're doing. You're
you're so immersed. It's as ifnothing else is around you.
Ideas and insights are comingin. In a world where 95% of
(04:32):
thoughts repeat, you're havingnew thoughts, you're getting
more done. Right? Productivitygoes up 400% when you're in
flow, learning speed 250%, andcreativity goes up 500%. So
bottom line, as a violinist, asthe concert master, which is the
(04:54):
lead violinist of an orchestra,second in command to the
conductor, I had to always be inthe music and get into flow.
And it served me to reallydeeply connect with my work, to
be able to lead with energy, andto be able to enroll all the
people on stage without everspeaking a single word. So
(05:18):
there's a lot to unpack there,but that's the basic background
for you know, as last thing II'd like to say about your
opening question is everyonegets into flow. It happens to
all of us. It just happens to bethat musicians and athletes rely
heavily on it for us to bedeeply engaged and at the best.
(05:41):
So I've, you know, as a longtime teacher, I've broken it
down so that I could teacheverybody how to get into their
work like a musician gets intothe music.
Mike Coffey (05:52):
So is that ability to get in that flow, is that
limited to something that youreally really care about and I
mean you're really passionateabout? Is in and is it like just
a personal anecdotal experienceor is there is there science
around it to say this is what itlooks like physiologically when
(06:12):
you're in flow?
Diane Allen (06:13):
Yes. To all of that. Okay. Yes.
Physiologically, what happens isis that the peak performance
hormones that get released arean endomidae, endorphins,
dopamine, serotonin, andnorepinephrine.
This is what sets people up to,you know, be at their best and
(06:33):
experience, you know you know,moments of of you know, it's to
the point where your innercritic is even gone. Right? Your
fight or flight response shutsoff. So you feel uninhibited.
You feel fearless, and you'rejust basically rocking it.
Yes. Those moments when you getmore done in thirty minutes than
you had in last three days, youknow, that's that's an example.
(06:55):
And I think everybody hasexperienced flow. Key indicators
of flow are losing a sense oftime, losing a sense of self.
Those ideas and insights comingin from out of the blue, things
coming together with the senseof ease.
You're in a positive feedbackloop. So a negative feedback
loop is when you're pouringyourself into your work and
there's no energy coming backand you get drained. Positive
(07:16):
feedback loop is your work is sorewarding, it ends up refueling
you. And overall, you feel morewhole, happy and fulfilled.
Mike Coffey (07:24):
Is it mostly around creative enterprises then or is
it also I mean, if I'm anaccountant or a bookkeeper,
let's say, and I'm enteringledger entries all day long, is
there flow behind that or is itreally just more on creative
work?
Diane Allen (07:39):
Yes. To everything.
Mike Coffey (07:41):
I'm batting a thousand a day.
Diane Allen (07:43):
Whenever I every time I you know, I've spoken at
a lot of SHRM conferences. Andwhenever I say, raise of hands,
how many of you lose your allsense of time when you're
working on an Excel spreadsheet?There are people, I would say, a
good 30 or, you know, 40 peoplewho, like, shoot their hands up.
Right? So the way I like todescribe my thought leadership
(08:07):
on flow, which stemmed from avery embarrassing experience
where I was at a concert, I hada massive interruption, and I
kept going.
But once I got going, I wascompletely disconnected. I was
(08:27):
literally going through themotions. I was just playing the
notes. So, you know, that's thedifference between doing your
job and and, you know, reallyengaging in your job. Right?
And it was very disturbing. Andthat night, I literally sat down
to reverse engineer how you getinto flow because flow falls
(08:48):
under the umbrella of positivepsychology. And positive
psychology, it's all abouttaking a look at what's working
well in your life, reverseengineering it so you can create
more of that goodness. And I wasjust, you know, I was just so
embarrassed, and I knew that ifI didn't crack this nut, right,
(09:08):
if I ever had a a bump in theroad like that again, that I
would really benefit greatly ifI knew how I uniquely got into
flow. So I came up with, youknow, just sitting on the couch
literally grilling myself withquestions and I realized I was
asking myself three questions.
Where? Where am I when I getinto the flow state the most?
(09:30):
What am I doing? On the outside,I'm playing the violin. But on
the inside, I had to think aboutit.
And I realized, you know, it's alot like reading out loud to my
son, sharing the message andsharing the experience together.
And I was like, well, that feelsexactly what it's like when I
(09:52):
am, you know, deeply engagedwith the music and and providing
that musical interpretation thatpeople expect. And then I was
like, okay. Well, that feelsright. What about those concerts
when I moved to tears?
And I realized there was apattern to those concerts. They
were always audience singalongs. And I realized there's
(10:14):
something about a group ofpeople. I experienced it in yoga
class too. When you have a groupof people doing one thing
together, right, it unifies youand that just brings out the
tears and that is my purpose.
So knowing that, what I callflow strategy, what you do on
(10:35):
the inside is your mostcompelling internal self
motivator. It's that thing thatmakes you tick. It's like your
secret sauce. And when you coulddefine what that is for
yourself, you can shift intoyour flow state on purpose. And
when you can also define yourwhat's so meaningful for you,
your why, you know, so manydifferent people say, you know,
(10:56):
figure out your why, right?
In this case, I'm like, why isit so meaningful? It's usually
the values that are so loftythat pull the best out of
ourselves, like peace and loveand unity and freedom and
equality. Right? And so, whenyou can define why it's so
meaningful for you, can shiftinto the flow state with
(11:18):
purpose. And so, this is yourflow strategy.
And I have been speaking aboutthis to a number of HR
conferences. And when I talkabout what I'm going to do at
the Northwest is it North?
Mike Coffey (11:34):
North Texas. North Texas. Yeah.
Diane Allen (11:37):
Yeah. I live in the Pacific Northwest, so that came
out of my mouth first. But theNorth Texas SHRM conference,
we're going to have ample timefor people to figure out their
own unique way to get into flow,but they're also going to learn
how to coach each other tofigure out each other's flow
strategies. Because if you'vegot an employee coming in and
(11:59):
they're frustrated, they want tobe you know, we all want to be
more engaged. It's and, youknow, having it be meaningful
experience, you know, you'llhave tools to coach you through
the experience.
Mike Coffey (12:12):
So if flow is that, you know, that internal focus,
that that connection with apurpose, what kind of things
distract or interfere with fromfrom being in flow?
Interruptions. Interruptions.Okay. So, that's a workplace
101, right?
Diane Allen (12:28):
They are the especially quick questions.
Yeah. Here's the difference. Ifyou know how uniquely get into
flow, then when you do have aninterruption, you can get back
to it much quicker. So
Mike Coffey (12:45):
yeah, those interruptions and in fact we we
realized a few years ago here atmy company that my best
employees, my most proficientanalysts were becoming my least
productive because of theconstant interruptions from
either their peers, who wouldsay hey, I've got this unique
(13:06):
situation, I've got a questionOr clients calling in and
saying, hey, I've got a questionor, you know, what would you do
here, whatever. And that meantwhile they were being helpful,
their own productivity was downand and we set up a process so
that we created a new roleclient liaisons who are the
frontline who all those calls gothrough. I mean they're in, you
(13:28):
know, what and we set up officehours so that people could set
aside if it's not truly urgentinternally, you know, there's
there's somebody who can stopand answer their questions in a
block and at a certain time justso we weren't peppering my most
valuable employees with withinterruptions all day. And it's
probably not a horrible thingfor the other employees to
(13:49):
figure stuff out and then comeback with an answer rather than
just saying what's going on. SoI guess I I wasn't thinking
about it as flow at that time,but the fact that they can knock
out a ton more work withoutthose interruptions even though
those, you know, resetting thoseinterruptions, you know, that
interruption may be thirtysecond but it seems like
resetting it and getting backinto flow or, know, that high
(14:12):
level of productivity is four orfive, six minutes maybe and then
here comes another call.
So I guess we were setting upflow and we didn't really think
about it in that term.
Diane Allen (14:20):
Mhmm.
Mike Coffey (14:22):
So what other things in the workplace besides
avoiding distractions might helpcreate an environment where flow
work is promoted?
Diane Allen (14:30):
I want to share another model with you. So when
I talked about the threequestions where, what and why,
that was my own unique thoughtleadership really trying to
discover what makes you tick sothat you can replicate that on
purpose and with purpose. Right?But Mihai Cheeksentmihai, he's
(14:51):
one of the very firstpsychologists who did in-depth
research into flow. And he has awonderful book that talks about
many different ways to get intoflow.
And I'd like to share this oneevery time I speak because you
should see the lightbulbs goingoff in people's heads when they
hear this. So according toCsikszentmihalyi, at the
intersection of skill,challenge, and purpose is the
(15:15):
universal entry point into flow.
Mike Coffey (15:17):
Okay. Wait. That's skill, challenge. Sorry for
interrupting your flow, butskill, challenge, and purpose.
Diane Allen (15:23):
Purpose. Think of a three circle Venn diagram.
Right? But first, think aboutit. A skill without a challenge,
not going to ignite anything.
A challenge without a skill, notgoing to ignite anything.
Mike Coffey (15:41):
Except frustration. Right. Yeah.
Diane Allen (15:42):
It's the two together Yeah. That activates
flow and brings out the best inus. And when you add purpose to
that, it takes it to a whole newlevel. And volunteer work is a
perfect example. You've got agroup of people with a variety
of skills coming together toface a challenge and doing it
(16:02):
all for a purpose.
And in this environment, we knowpeople love volunteer work. You
know, like bring on the hardwork. Right? There's
collaboration. People who don'teven know each other come
together.
Ideas and insights are popping.You've got all those key
indicators of being in flow. Sohow can you create that into
your daily life? It's simply touse that as a lens to look
(16:24):
through. Maybe you can useskill, challenge, and purpose as
an assessment tool or as aplanning tool.
And so I have a few examples Ireally wanna share with you.
Let's start with Alaska Sherm.
Mike Coffey (16:36):
Okay.
Diane Allen (16:37):
There was somebody in the audience who was the
person who viewed all of theworkplace injury forms. Right?
This was their piece of thepuzzle, that they had to see all
these forms and do the work thatthey do with them. And this
skill challenge purpose thing,he came running up to me after I
(17:02):
spoke. Here's what he said.
Fishing industry. Right? So hetaught he described two
different jobs. First job isyou've got people who wash the
fish. It's a conveyor belt.
The fish go by all day. Theywash their fish. Then you have
these other people who have toput their whole body into this
(17:26):
machine, and they I'm gesturingthe the way he gestured to me
where his hands are up and youhave to pull this machine down
with all your might. It'sprocessing the fish. And as
you're pulling this, you have toput your whole body into it.
It's very physical. And the workthat you do, you see the
(17:47):
processed fish. You see itaccumulating alongside, so you
can see the results of yourwork. And then he describes this
to me and he says, okay, whowhich job has more workplace
injuries? What do you think,Mike?
Mike Coffey (18:04):
Well, I would have said the the intuitive one would
be the one with the heavyequipment and and the, you know,
the piles of fish all around.But you're gonna tell me
otherwise, I think.
Diane Allen (18:15):
Yeah. It's the people washing the fish.
Interesting. He said, herealized it's because there's no
skill, there's no challenge, andthere's no purpose at all. And
he was convinced that he couldgamify this.
Maybe he can have a skillscontest with people or have them
have some fun with it. Give themsome challenges. And then he
(18:38):
realized that importance ofseeing the feedback of their
work, right, because without it,it's just like this long endless
thing. And then we didn't Idon't remember what he said
about purpose, but the skill andchallenge alone is, you know,
honestly, the gaming industry isall built on flow. It's all
built on that dance betweenskill and challenge.
(19:00):
You know, you're
Mike Coffey (19:01):
working on Well, and I guess that's you hear
about all these people who go tocasinos and they look up and the
three hours have passed. Yes.And they look up when they're
when their pockets are empty andwonder what happened. And Yeah.
So I guess that you're right.
I never I never thought aboutthat. Yeah. Well, I guess social
media is probably built onsomething very similar because
it you get sucked into scrollingthrough your social media, you
(19:26):
get the little dopamine hits andyou just time disappears. It's I
mean, there's probably anegative version of
Diane Allen (19:33):
Let's talk about that.
Mike Coffey (19:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Diane Allen (19:34):
Because that kind of dopamine hit is like eating
cheap candy. It's like in themoment, it tastes great, but
then afterwards, you feelcrappy.
Mike Coffey (19:43):
Okay. Right.
Diane Allen (19:44):
That's I'm blanking on the name for that. I wanna
say it's something like hyperfocus. It's a you know, there's
a lot of different ways thatpeople can get into flow, and
there's different degrees towhich you can get into flow. You
can say there's differentflavors of it. Right?
And what I'm talking about iswhen I'm talking about flow, I
am talking about the kind that'svery satisfying, that keeps you
(20:07):
engaged with your work. It's whyyou come back the next day. It's
why all of a sudden people aresaying 05:00 already? Can't wait
to come back tomorrow.
Mike Coffey (20:17):
And let's take a quick break. Good morning HR is
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(20:38):
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(21:01):
preapproved for one half hour ofrecertification credit. To
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episode one ninety five andenter the keyword flow.
That's f l o w. And if you'relooking for even more
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(21:23):
imperativeinfo.com. And now backto my conversation with Diane
Allen. So I like that ideabecause it it plays both ways.
Right?
That skill and challengecombination because you hear
about people who are maybeoverqualified for a job and and
have a hard time getting thingsdone. And then on the other
(21:45):
side, if it if the job's toohard, if I if I if I just get
frustrated, I build anxietybecause I can't do this thing
that would interrupt as well.
Diane Allen (21:55):
Yes. So let's go a little deeper. If you think of
skill and remember, we'rethinking about a three circle
die Venn diagram. If you thinkof skill and challenge as dials,
you could be underskilled,overskilled, have just the right
amount of skill. You could beunder challenged, over
challenged, have just the rightamount of challenge.
Challenge is subjective, right?So you really have to check-in
(22:20):
with people. One person's bighairy audacious goal is gonna
crumble somebody else. So youhave to find the right mix and
it's usually just a titch out ofyour comfort zone that's going
to ignite flow. So when I spokefor the Northwest Human
Resources Management Conference,there was a woman there.
She said she knowingly hiredsomebody who's overqualified for
(22:41):
the job. She had been verynervous about retaining her. She
didn't know how to broach thetopic. She didn't know how to
talk with her. But when she sawthis model, she says, I know
exactly how to talk with her.
I'm going to ask her what skillsshe'd like to learn. I'm going
to ask her what kind ofchallenges she's like and ask
her, you know, if she's findingenough purpose. There was
(23:01):
another woman at the sameconference, she shared that
learning a new skill, which weall have to do these days, is a
challenge and purpose can keepyou motivated. But once that
skill is honed, you've gotta reshake things up. That's where
planning comes in place.
Right? You've gotta re challengeit and maybe even find new
purpose.
Mike Coffey (23:21):
That's interesting. My number three son, my
youngest, is a junior at themusic conservatory at Oberlin.
Always try to find a way to workin one of my three sons in here
in Bragg. I always said I wasn'tgonna be that parent who thought
their kids were all that allthat, but then I didn't that was
before I knew I was gonna havekids who were all that. But
number three, he's a he's aclarinet performance major and I
(23:44):
I see him the first, you know,when I see him perform with his
quintet or in otherenvironments, it's a different
kid than the one who's sittingon my couch eating potato chips
watching Netflix during, youknow, when he's home from
school.
And he is he's focused and Iguess that would be flow. I've
(24:04):
I've not thought about it thatway, but it always hits me that
he's doing something that heloves, that's really that he's
really good at and that he'sworked at. Yes. I guess that's
really a big part of that andthat's interesting.
Diane Allen (24:16):
It is. I my son struggled in high school, full
on teenage rebellion. Normal.Right? They're supposed to rebel
at that age as part of the thegrowing process.
But the second he graduated, hewent straight to the local
municipal airport and he hired aflight instructor. And now he's
(24:38):
flying Learjets. Okay?
Mike Coffey (24:39):
Oh,
Diane Allen (24:39):
wow. 27 year old flying Learjets. Now here's the
deal. My my brother-in-law, heused to operate a crane at a
plant that they were buildingtrain engines. And his job was
to turn the engine around sothat they could do the next part
(25:00):
of the work.
Right? It's some sort ofassembly line. But the problem
with this particular crane is isthat if you if you get it and
they're just the wrong way, thisthing will start swinging out of
control and become deadly. Okay?And so, you know, both my
brother-in-law and both my son,these jobs require that level of
(25:25):
deep focus.
They require excellence at alltimes. And so, you know, I
talked earlier about, you know,as a violinist or as an athlete
that we rely heavily on being inflow. When you see your son in
flow, I've seen my son in flow.I know my brother-in-law had to
be in flow to do that job. Butnot everybody has a life or
(25:48):
death.
Right? Yeah. Experience, youknow, with that their job is a
life or death thing. But itdoesn't mean that you can't
enjoy, you know, the the elationthat people experience from
doing excellent work and frombeing at your best. That's, you
know, all about selfactualization and and fulfilling
(26:09):
on your potential.
Mike Coffey (26:10):
So let's let's talk about group performance
Diane Allen (26:14):
Yes.
Mike Coffey (26:14):
Then and group flow because, like, I've individually
people can be in flow, but thenyou get them, you know, Miles
Davis, John Coltrane, CannonballAdderley, Bill Evans altogether
in 1958 and you get Kinda Blueand, you know, one of the best
jazz albums of all time. All andyou listen to that and all four
(26:34):
of them were clearly in flowed,but they were also listening to
each other. They're playing oneach other. How does a group
flow how do you create a groupflow? How does that happen?
Diane Allen (26:45):
So as the lead violinist of an orchestra, I
created that and I'll give youthe the mechanics of it as well.
So first, I would have to leadmyself. Right? You always have
to lead yourself to lead others.
Mike Coffey (27:03):
Sure. Yeah.
Diane Allen (27:04):
So, I had to lead myself first to be in flow, to
be at my best, to be deeplyconnected with the music and
deeply connected with theconductor because he and I were
steering the whole ship. Right?And so, according to the
HeartMath Institute, when youare engaged in purpose, right,
(27:27):
and you're in this deep level offlow, you are actually
activating the 40,000 neurons inyour heart. The electromagnetic
field of the heart reaches out60% more than the
electromagnetic field of thebrain. So when you are in your
(27:48):
heart space, right, what doesthat mean?
It means that you're in purpose,right? It can mean many other
things as well. But right now,we're just talking about when
you are coming from a place ofpurpose, you are igniting those
40,000 neurons in your heart.Your energy is now exuding three
feet all around you. And anybodyin that sphere is going to sense
(28:09):
that.
It's basically the the energy ofenthusiasm. We all know somebody
who, you know, they've got pizzanight on Friday nights and they
get so enthusiastic about it.Right? Maybe they make their own
and maybe you're not so into it,but they invite you over and you
can't help it. You getenthusiastic with them because
they're so enthusiastic.
So being in flow, completely anddeeply in flow becomes the
(28:34):
energy of influence. Now thosepeople in my three foot circle,
they're going to sync up becausethat's what people do. We sync
up. Now, they are exuding theirthree foot circles around them.
The people behind them, itbecomes this ripple effect to
the point where the audiencegets looped in as well.
And that's how you ignite groupflow by first leading yourself
(28:58):
to lead others.
Mike Coffey (29:00):
Interesting. So and and we've all seen that where
one person has an idea that youread it on paper, it sounds like
a kooky idea and you know, for abusiness or whatever and I've
seen my share of them over theyears and then you meet the
person and suddenly it seemsachievable. I mean, and I'm
sure, you know, everybody fromJeff Bezos to Elon Musk to any
(29:23):
of those folks who've builtphenomenal companies that nobody
dreamed of or thought wasthought were nuts, they've
probably got that ability toexcite and motivate and
incentivize other people. Andand so what you're saying is
that is the first part aboutgetting somebody into into the
rest of a team into a flow stateis to have a leader. Yep.
(29:45):
What about this yeah. Go ahead.
Diane Allen (29:46):
I have another example. Okay? Using the skill
challenge purpose model. Thiswas a group of high school math
teachers. They were they had agrant.
Their task was to developcurriculum that teenage math
students could relate to. Sothat's the purpose. Right? It's
already there in the in thetask. The teachers, they were
all very highly skilled, andthey entered this with, you
(30:10):
know, a lot of creativity andbrainstorming.
They were just popping, popping,popping. Got to a point where
they stalled, And a friend ofmine was part of this cohort,
she asked me to come in. So wewere taking a look at what was
going on and throughconversation, I started to
realize each person on this teamhad a different concept of what
(30:33):
the current challenge was. Andas soon as they each voiced what
they thought what the challengewas, well, you can already tell
what's happening. Now that theyhear where they're really at,
they can now unify and addresseach one of those challenges.
And then it just ended up, youknow, getting back to where they
were. So, you know, sometimesthat using that model was
(30:55):
really, really helpful toidentify, like, what's missing?
You know? You gotta have allthree of those equally present.
Mike Coffey (31:02):
Skill, challenge, purpose. That's really a that's
that's that's really that's I Imight have to think about that.
That's really an interestingconcept. We're almost done, but
if I was designing a workplaceor a work environment, I'm
guessing off the top of my headthe things that I need to think
about if I really wannaencourage flow status. Again,
the amount of distractions.
(31:23):
The thing that I've always hatedin job descriptions is
multitasking required becausewhat you're really saying is
serial tasking and, you know,it's it's okay to have a lot of
accountabilities, but at anygiven time I want you to be able
to focus in on one thing and getthat thing done. So, I'd wanna
avoid true multitasking, try todoing trying to do three things
at once. What other workplacedesign things would you put into
(31:48):
place to help a team work inflow?
Diane Allen (31:51):
Yeah. So I'm gonna call you out on one thing. I
work with somebody who has ADHDand he is a master at
multitasking. In fact, he hethinks it's his gift for the
work that he does. He's a he's aland acquisition manager for a
real estate developer, andthings are always popping.
(32:11):
So you never know. Like, younever know. Somebody might
thrive in multitasking, whereasI think there might be a
majority of people that don't.You know, I think we've all seen
the stats on that, but there arepeople who do. So when you're
thinking about team right, isthat what your question was?
Mike Coffey (32:29):
Right.
Diane Allen (32:29):
Yeah. I think that it's a combination of everything
that we've talked about. Youknow, a designated block of time
that I recommend is ninetyminutes of uninterrupted time.
That gives you the chance tokind of, like, you know, into
flow, get into a peak of it, andthen kind of have a wind down.
(32:52):
And and, you know, knowing thatyou've got that blocked off,
nobody's allowed to you know, nointerruptions allowed.
Right? Really insulate that. Ithink magic can happen. Also,
having these tools that wetalked about, How does each
person uniquely get into flow?Right?
How can they use skill,challenge, and purpose? And
using these tools. You know,it's also helpful, I would say,
(33:15):
yes, you might uniquely know howyou personally get into flow,
but what if you also knew whatyour other teammates, you know,
what's their secret sauce,right? What makes them tick?
What's their purpose?
You've got personal purpose,you've got organizational
purpose, you've got projectpurpose, right? So, you know,
(33:35):
using all of those differentlevels to really clearly define,
I think, also helps to, youknow, create, you know, the
environment that will reallyhelp teams to thrive.
Mike Coffey (33:46):
That's really, really interesting. I can't wait
to hear the rest of yourpresentation. I we barely
scratched the surface. Andyou're presenting again at the
North Texas SHRM AnnualConference on April. That's all
the time we have today.
Thanks for joining me, Diane.
Diane Allen (34:05):
My pleasure.
Mike Coffey (34:06):
Diane's contact information and all her other
resources and including a linkto her book are going to be in
the show notes. And again, youcan hear Diane's keynote at
North Texas SHERM's annualconference on April, and I will
include a link to all thatinformation in the show notes as
well. And I'll also be there. Iwill be recording a podcast live
(34:29):
from the stage. We're workingwithout a net, and so it'll be
it'll be interesting.
And so if you wanna see me getinto flow or fall on my face,
we'll see what happens. Butit'll be April 29 in Denton,
Texas at the North Texas SHRMconference. And thank you for
listening. If you enjoyed thisepisode, please write us a
(34:51):
review on your favorite podcastapp, whether it's Apple,
Spotify, wherever you get yourpodcast. It helps people find
us.
Also, do your friends a solid.If you like this episode, find
Good Morning HR on your favoritesocial media and share it. And
we'd love to hear your thoughtsabout this episode at
(35:13):
goodmorninghr.com. Thank you toour producer Rob Upchurch and to
Imperative's marketingcoordinator Mary Anne Hernandez.
And I'm Mike Coffey.
As always, don't hesitate toreach out if I can be of service
to you personally orprofessionally. I'll see you
next week. And until then, bewell, do good, and keep your
chin up.
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