March 6, 2025 • 39 mins
In episode 190, Coffey talks with Audrey Mickahail about using skills-based hiring to access untapped talent pools.
They discuss the "paper ceiling" that excludes qualified candidates without degrees; how degree requirements became default screening tools; the value of skills and experience gained through alternative routes; strategies for employers to identify and assess core competencies; the importance of gateway jobs in career development; tools and resources available through Opportunity at Work to support skills-based hiring.
Good Morning, HR is brought to you by Imperative—Bulletproof Background Checks. For more information about our commitment to quality and excellent customer service, visit us at https://imperativeinfo.com.
If you are an HRCI or SHRM-certified professional, this episode of Good Morning, HR has been pre-approved for half a recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information for this episode, visit https://goodmorninghr.com.
About our Guest:
Audrey Mickahail is Senior Vice President, Private Sector & Membership Experience, at Opportunity@Work. In this role, she is responsible for the organization’s Private Sector business as well as the team that ensures a high quality and consistent customer experience with Opportunity@Work through its service offerings to help employers, philanthropies, regional consortia, and the public sector enable economic mobility for workers who are Skilled through Alternative Routes (STARs).
Audrey Mickahail can be reached at
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mickahail/
About Mike Coffey:
Mike Coffey is an entrepreneur, licensed private investigator, business strategist, HR consultant, and registered yoga teacher.
In 1999, he founded Imperative, a background investigations and due diligence firm helping risk-averse clients make well-informed decisions about the people they involve in their business.
Imperative delivers in-depth employment background investigations, know-your-customer and anti-money laundering compliance, and due diligence investigations to more than 300 risk-averse corporate clients across the US, and, through its PFC Caregiver & Household Screening brand, many more private estates, family offices, and personal service agencies.
Imperative has been named a Best Places to Work, the Texas Association of Business’ small business of the year, and is accredited by the Professional Background Screening Association.
Mike shares his insight from 25+ years of HR-entrepreneurship on the Good Morning, HR podcast, where each week he talks to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for customers, shareholders, and community.
Mike has been recognized as an Entrepreneur of Excellence by FW, Inc. and has twice been recognized as the North Texas HR Professional of the Year.
Mike serves as a board member of a number of organizations, including the Texas State Council, where he serves Texas’ 31 SHRM chapters as State Director-Elect; Workforce Solutions for Tarrant County; the Texas Association of Business; and the Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce, where he is chair of the Talent Committee.
Mike is a certified Senior Professional in Human Resources (SPHR) through the HR Certification Institute
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Audrey Mickahail (00:00):
It's not just being very clear about what
success looks like in a rolefrom a skill perspective, but
also what does it look like tobe successful on day one, and
what can someone learn once theyonce they're on the job?
Mike Coffey (00:17):
Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of
Imperative, bulletproofbackground checks with fast and
friendly service. And this isthe podcast where I talk to
business leaders about bringingpeople together to create value
for shareholders, customers, andthe community. For several
generations, the expectation wasthat if you get a college
degree, any degree, there'd be ajob out there waiting for you.
(00:40):
However, in reality, the averageUS College Student graduates
with over $38,000 in debt.
Often only to find that theirdegree did not prepare them with
the skills that employers areactually seeking. Additionally,
evolving technology and rapidchange in the business
environment often mean that whatsomeone learned in college ten
(01:02):
years ago may not meet today'sjob requirements. And because so
much focus has been placed oncollege prep, training for well
paying technical andadministrative positions, and
even jobs in the trades has beende emphasized. On the employer
side, college degrees havebecome the default credential
for many roles, creating whattoday's guest calls a paper
(01:25):
ceiling for candidates who canactually do the job, but they
can't even get an interviewbecause they don't have a four
year degree. But as unemploymenthas returned to near record
lows, many companies arereconsidering the criteria by
which they evaluate prospectiveemployees.
Many are embracing alternativeroutes to skill development. I'm
(01:46):
joined today by Audrey Mccahill.Audrey is senior vice president
of private sector and membershipexperience at Opportunity at
Work, an organization whosemission is to rewire The US
labor market so that allindividuals skilled through
alternative routes, STARS, canwork, learn, and earn to their
(02:09):
full potential. Welcome to GoodMorning HR, Audrey.
Audrey Mickahail (02:12):
Thank you so much, Mike. It's a delight to be
here.
Mike Coffey (02:15):
So I mentioned the paper ceiling, and I know
OpportunityWork uses that thatterm a lot. Describe what the
paper ceiling is and and whatproblems it it it causes for
both employers and, and jobseekers.
Audrey Mickahail (02:33):
Well, the paper ceiling is that barrier
that workers face when employersoften unwittingly or without
even questioning their basicassumptions about workers place
a barrier and that can thatbarrier to employment can be at
the initial stage when a workeris applying for a job. Or
(02:56):
frankly, what we increasinglyhear from folks is they may be
able to make an entry into anorganization, but perhaps that
barrier will creep up on themwhen they're looking for
mobility, they're looking fortheir next opportunity. You
know, it's partly a factor ofour technology. It's partly a
factor of, well, this is the waywe've done things. It can be a
(03:19):
matter of unexaminedassumptions.
But I will also say that ourresearch has found that it's one
of the consequences of the greatrecession. We saw STARS, workers
who are skilled throughalternative routes rather than a
bachelor's degree, lose groundafter the great recession when
(03:39):
you may remember this, Mike.Talent acquisition leaders were
just flooded with applicationsat that time. And so one of the
things that we we saw happenthen was, an increasing use of
degree screening just as a meansof of trying to filter
applications that, you know, itwas a perhaps a reasonable
(04:01):
reaction to the moment, but Ithink it's a hack that has long
outlived its usefulness at thispoint.
Mike Coffey (04:08):
And well, and even then, in 02/2009, '2 thousand
'10, I was arguing, you know, inmy conversations with our
clients, our employer clients,that that kind of shortcut
probably is not serving you. Youknow, I I I've been a advocate
for skills based hiring. I cameout of aerospace and then health
care. And in health care, Imean, certainly, there are
(04:31):
degree requirements andcertification requirements, but
the bottom line is competencies.And can you, you know, can you
demonstrate these specificcompetencies?
And I think a lot of employersare just really beginning to
wake up to the fact that inorder to do this job, these are
(04:51):
the five things someone has tobe able to do. And that's all
I'm really concerned about. I'mI'm I'm concerned about their
cultural fit, you know, theshare of values, all those
things, which are reallyimportant. But, you know, as far
as, you know, did this personattend, you know, a university
(05:11):
or or whatever it was, what youknow, whatever that their their
traditional criteria has been tomeasure someone, you know, at
that first or second level of ofreview may not maybe making it
harder for them to hire the bestcandidates. I mean, certainly,
it's easy to hire warm bodies,and you can certainly find
people with degrees, but thatdoesn't mean that those people
(05:34):
are gonna be the ones thatreally have the skills that you
Audrey Mickahail (05:36):
need. We think that's exactly right. And you've
mentioned it in your intro, butone of the things that we often
ask folks when we areintroducing this topic to them
is we think we ask them, okay,think about the skills that
you're deploying day in and dayout on your job. And
particularly once you get pastthe first few years of your
(05:58):
career, where did you gain thoseskills? I think for me, for
sure, there's very little that Ilearned in college that is
really serving me today.
And we would argue that, youknow, most people are learning
their skills day in and day outby showing up by showing up day
(06:20):
in and day out and learning onthe job. And in fact, even for
folks who are really in inrather senior positions, their
journeys to their seniorpositions often included some
interesting detours or lateralmoves or stretch opportunities.
I think that's a natural if youthink about your own journey
through your career. And it's ashame then, and it's certainly,
(06:44):
I think, counterintuitive andcounterproductive to think about
that degree that someone may ormay not have have attained many,
many years ago as being ascontinuing to be relevant.
Mike Coffey (06:57):
You know, one of the things I hear when I'm
having these conversations withemployers, is, well, you know,
even if the college degree isnot relevant, it still
demonstrates that the personcould stick with something and,
you know, and actually completea project, you know, really
fight through something. And myanswer to them is always, do you
(07:18):
really have a culture where youneed people who can just grind
through and stick with somethingand, you know, who without
examining other options? Is thatreally what, you know, your
workplace is is hiring for? Ithink that's more of a defense
mechanism for their currenthiring, you know, the status quo
then it is a really a a realbusiness imperative to find
(07:42):
people, you know, because quitehonestly, that person who didn't
go to school and, you know,maybe they worked, fast food and
did temp jobs and and gig workor whatever came along, for four
years. They were still doingsomething and maybe hustling
harder than a lot of collegestudents had to hustle for that
(08:03):
four years.
And I'll say, you know, in ourexperience, one of my best
analysts on our backgroundinvestigation side of the
business, she worked in theservice industry, in the food
food service industry for thefive years out of out of high
school before she came to workfor us. And now she's she is one
of my best analysts. And, shewas she's an avid reader. She's
(08:26):
got a deep understanding ofEnglish language, how to write
things, how to say things. She'sa great problem solver.
College was not an option forher. And, you know, it worked
out to my to my benefit thatI've got this amazing analyst
who, you know, just happened torandomly apply for our job and
passed our initial competencytest that we present through the
(08:48):
application process, and we endup hiring her. And she's
amazing.
Audrey Mickahail (08:52):
Mike, I think you have described the story
that so many people experience.And, you know, there's a simple
notion here that tear the paperceiling represents, which is
simply if you can do the job,you should be able to get the
job. You should get the job. Andthe truth of the matter is, I
think, by including, especiallyearly on in the process before
(09:18):
you've really had an opportunityto assess people's skills. When
you choose that degree screen asa de facto, early step in the
process, you're doing a numberof things that I think are not
intentional on the part of mostemployers.
The first thing that you'redoing that I think is quite
(09:39):
damaging is that you areactually preventing yourself if
you're a hiring manager oryou're in a talent acquisition
role, is that you're blindingyourself to the skills of those
applicants. The second thingthat you're doing, and and
certainly, I think the thechallenge here is one of
(10:01):
recognizing what your goals areas an organization. So for
example, when you insist or whenyou include a degree screening
step, you're eliminating fromconsideration big chunks of the
population. I mean, the realityis stars are 70,000,000 workers
in this country out of a40,000,000 workers who are
(10:24):
active in today's labor market.And that includes the majority
of men.
That includes the majority ofwhite workers, of black workers,
of Hispanic workers, ofveterans, of older workers. To
say nothing of the demographiccliff that we're about to embark
on where both from a raw numbersperspective and from a
(10:48):
percentage of the workforce, weare seeing fewer individuals
choose college as their as theirroute. And I should name this. I
hope it's obvious, but I shouldsay upfront, we are like,
college is a great opportunityif it's right for you. But I
think what the college for allargument misses is that that may
(11:11):
not be someone's preference.
That may not be an opportunity.And I think, you know, forgive
the expression, but damningfolks who choose other options
or other routes into theworkforce to lower wages and for
and to being paid for theirlabor rather than their skill is
both a that's a problem foremployers and it's a problem for
(11:35):
workers. We talk to employersall the time who are starting,
as you alluded to earlier, toappreciate that they have real
needs that are not being filledtoday with workers if they're
only looking at individuals whohave attained that bachelor's
degree. And so the the values, Ithink, of Skills First Hiring,
(11:57):
and you're clearly a leader hereand ahead of your time, But
those values are starting tocatch up with us, and that's the
good news. I think part of it isthe campaign, the tear the paper
ceiling campaign and hopefullythe impact it's had in showing
workers who are genuinelyenthusiastic about their work,
(12:18):
who are ambitious, who haveproven out the skills that you
referenced in ways other than abachelor's degree.
So to your point earlier about,well, if you've gone through
college and you've stuck withit, you've proven something,
great. That's a fantastic way toprove that you can complete a
(12:38):
four year degree. But is it theonly way to prove that you have
skills? Is it the only way toprove that you have grit? I
would argue that it's not.
I think that perception that,college proves something about
you is a little limiting. Itmay, in fact, prove something
about you, but it's not the onlyway to to to prove to prove that
(13:01):
point.
Mike Coffey (13:02):
Yeah. And I would argue in and of itself, it
doesn't tell you anything aboutthe person. I mean, I I know
people with PhDs who, you know,quite honestly, would have a
hard time finding their own rearend with both hands. And, you're
welcome listeners that I waspolite this time. But, the idea
out there and I'll I'll I'll gofull disclosure here.
(13:25):
I dropped out of well, I Iworked full time through
college. And then when I was inmy early twenties, I dropped out
to start my first company. Iflew that airplane right into
the side of a mountain, but Ilearned so much in that two
years. I learned I mean, thatwas an MBA and, you know, and it
was it was about as expensive asan MBA. And and then I went back
(13:46):
to school when I went back tocorporate world for about five
years, but then got married, sohaving kids, never finished it,
then started this company twentysix years ago.
And my boss won't give me araise if I go get it if I finish
that last 13 of that degree, andso I don't have one. So, maybe
it's maybe it's easy to say, oh,yeah. Mike Coffey doesn't have a
degree, so he's he's passionateof those folks who have them,
(14:07):
but I'm not. But I'm saying thatI, you know, I'm interested in
what somebody on day one when Ihire somebody. What can they do
for me?
How quickly can I get them up tospeed? And maybe that person
who's hustled, who's workedhard, done a lot of different
things can demonstrate to mejust as much as that person who
(14:30):
got that that degree, maybe thatadvanced degree, and and really
had to you know, maybe theyworked their way through school.
They did a lot of things. Iwanna know the whole thing,
though. I don't I don't wannaknow just you got a piece paper.
Tell me the background of ofwhat that experience was like.
What did you learn aboutleadership, interpersonal
relationships, whatever elseduring college, which is a great
place to do that. But I think weemphasize even there too much
(14:54):
about colleges, you know, bringsthis special unique value
because of leadership, thesethings. I'm sorry. If I'm
working in a McDonald's with,you know, maybe 80 other
employees rotating throughdifferent shifts, I'm gonna
learn a lot about interpersonaldynamics, about negotiating with
people, about, you know, maybe Iget to be a supervisor, how to
(15:16):
manage all kinds of differentfolks.
There's a you know, I think youcan develop those skills early
in your career, whatever you'redoing, if you if you just are if
you're if you have the aptitudeto look for those opportunities.
Audrey Mickahail (15:29):
I mean, I would add to that list. You
learn to deal with prior or toyou learn prioritization. You
learn conflict resolution. Youlearn how to, manage multiple
demands simultaneously. And andand furthermore, on the
contrasting side, again, not notto take anything away from
college at all.
One of the things I've learnedin my career, I've managed lots
(15:51):
of folks who were early incareer professionals who had
that bachelor's degree. And onething they struggle with so we
you talked about grit earlier.And folks who've been through
college know how to completeoften know how to complete a
task, one that's complex, andthen they hand it in. And one
thing I would tell you as a as amanager today and someone who's
(16:14):
managed folks for a long time isthat's great, but can you take
feedback and incorporate it? Canyou stick with a project even
when your stakeholders tell youyou're off base?
Can you go back to the startingboard? And so I think those are
things that you uniquely learnin the workplace when, you know,
(16:35):
you don't have the privilege orthe luck of being able to just
finish an assignment, turn itin, and never look back. Often
in work, you actually have toiterate and cocreate with a wide
variety of people. And I think,that's one of those things that,
you know, again, it's not totake anything away from college
at all, but how many peoplereally thrive in group projects
(16:56):
that you you had to do when youwere in school? Often you try
and get away from that as soonas you can.
You can't do that. It worked.You actually do have to
negotiate and navigate anditerate quite a bit. Didn't mean
to rhyme there, but there yougo.
Mike Coffey (17:12):
It worked. So maybe you should have stayed and got a
a poetry degree. But, if I'm anemployer and I'm recognizing
that, you know, there's there'sprobably a pool a talent pool
out there that I'm not tappinginto. And so we we need to
reevaluate maybe some of our ourour reliance on those
(17:33):
credentials. Where should Istart?
You know, what's that first stepif an employer comes to
OpportunityWork and says, hey.How do I go about this? What
does that look like?
Audrey Mickahail (17:44):
Well, Mike, I think one of the things that we
start with is where are yourneeds? What is your what is the
business problem you are tryingto solve? Because, ultimately,
that is what's going to makechange sustainable and worth the
squeeze in the long run. Mhmm.For, you know, the past couple
of decades, I've worked withexecutives in various kinds of
(18:07):
management challenges thatthey've faced.
I come from a research andadvisory background. And one
thing that is very clear to meafter all of these years is that
you have to understand and workwith the needs of the
organization and the incentivesof the folks that you're working
with. So we at Opportunity atWork don't come at this work
from a wanting folks to, youknow, do the right thing just
(18:32):
for the sake of it being theright thing. We actually want
the right thing to be the rightbusiness decision. And
increasingly where we try tofocus is helping organizations
make that right thing the easything for them to do, the thing
that solves their problem.
So when we work with HR, peoplein culture folks, we start with,
(18:55):
what is your need? What's yourpain point? What are the roles
that you're struggling to fill?What's the cost to your
organization of not fillingthose roles? And that's that
takes us a pretty far way downthe path.
There are other organizationsthat say, you know, actually,
we're less worried in thismoment about hiring and more
(19:16):
worried about retaining thetalent we have already
recruited. And so that's anincreasingly frequent
conversation for us. And there,the same sort of DNA of
understanding skills and skilledpathways is a similar
conversation. What are the rolesthat you're trying to fill?
Where are you trying to retainpeople?
(19:39):
What are the positions in yourorganization that are great
springboards to mobility foryour workers? And what I've
found is that folks often have areally good intuition about what
those roles are. So for example,in our research, what we see,
and we call them gateway jobs.Gateway jobs are those jobs that
(20:00):
are accessible from lower wagepositions, and they open up
tremendous pathways for thoseworkers. So they're things like
computer support specialist orhelp desk technician.
They're jobs that are oftenincredible springboards to
opportunities for workers oncethey've spent a bit of time in
them. And when we talk to largeenterprises, they often have
(20:23):
those roles. It may not be theexact ones that I just
mentioned, but they're oftenplaces where people can find
their feet, so to speak, theycan get their start, they can
build some of the foundationalskills that they may need. And
those skills give them, again, aspringboard of opportunity into
other pathways, whether thoseare, you know, ladders up or
(20:46):
lateral moves. And we seecompanies actually being very
thoughtful in certain cases.
Again, not necessarily amainstream practice yet, but we
see progress in this area oncefolks understood that as a
business need they wanted toretain people to get really more
(21:06):
precise and deeper in theirunderstanding of the pathways
that folks are traversing bylooking at what are the
transitions that are being madeby their workers, whether
internally or where our analysistends to focus is what are the
transitions that workers aremaking in the labor market writ
(21:26):
large. And often there's reallygood insight for employers for
how to not only retain andadvance their workers, but also
how to think about recruitment.So we have a tool that's free
for the public, and anyone canuse. It's called Starsight, and
that's s tarsight. It's atstarsight.org.
(21:49):
It's free to use. But one of thethings that tool enables folks
to do is to understand for theirgiven role, for the for the role
that they're trying to hire fromor for, I should say, the role
they are trying to hire for,what is the predecessor role
that a worker might have had?What are real labor market
(22:11):
transitions that workers havemade into that job? And what
that enables someone to do is tothink about, well, is there a
skills proximate job that Imight recruit from? Maybe I have
those jobs in my organizationalready or maybe this gives me a
sense for how to recruit someonewho's almost there and I might,
(22:35):
as an employer, top them up,give them that little bit of
onboarding or training thatmight get them that last few
percentage points, of skillbuilding that they might need.
So really thinking, like, howmight you start? What are the
open roles that you have? Whatare the hard to fill roles? What
are the high volume roles thatyou as an organization have? And
(23:00):
I think one of the things that'sinteresting about that
consideration in creating astrategy where you might start
with removing degree screens isthere's so much interest in new
to world roles and AI and rolesthat didn't exist in the past.
And in those situations, onereally has an opportunity to
(23:21):
question whether or not thatdegree screen is even relevant.
Because I think one of thethings where you're seeing very
clearly and I actually, have ason who is he's in art school.
So, you know
Mike Coffey (23:35):
I feel your pain. I'm paying for a clarinet degree
right now for so, you know, foryeah. Who's he's an amazing
clarinetist.
Audrey Mickahail (23:41):
It and we need we need clarinetists, Mike. We
need them. So it all to say
Mike Coffey (23:47):
Unfortunately, we only need one or two in every
orchestra. That's my biggestconcern. But anyway
Audrey Mickahail (23:51):
I hear you. I hear you. I my my son is a
photography major. So, you know,all to say that those are some
of these new to world roles areplaces where actually the the
post secondary system hasn'tcaught up yet. And so you hear
this tragic story of there beingdegree screens or requirements
that actually are impossible tomeet because the job description
(24:15):
is not an accurate reflectionof, for example, how long the
technology has been in use orwhether or not there are
appropriate credentials alignedwith with a particular skill.
Those are great opportunities torethink what might you know,
what are the core skills youneed on day one? That was
something I think you, alludedto earlier in the conversation.
(24:38):
It's not just being very clearabout what success looks like in
a role from a skill perspective,but also what does it look like
to be successful on day one, andwhat can someone learn once they
once they're on the job?
Mike Coffey (24:53):
And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is
brought to you by Imperative,bulletproof background checks
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(25:59):
webinar is free and preapprovedfor recertification credit. You
can register or watch therecording later by clicking on
the education tab atcomparativeinfo.com, where you
can also find all of mypreviously recorded webinars.
If you're an HRCI or SHRMcertified professional, this
episode of Good Morning HR hasbeen pre approved for one half
(26:22):
hour of recertification credit.To obtain the recertification
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research credits. Then selectepisode one ninety and enter the
keyword stars. That's s t a r s.And now back to my conversation
with Audrey Micahel.
And you were talking aboutgateway rules and it reminded me
(26:45):
of a family member who's wickedsmart guy. His father is a
mechanic, owns a mechanic shop,and he always was very good with
the, you know, those kind ofthings. High school gets a job
at a Sam's Club, and this is inin the early aughts, starts
working on what they called hardlines, which is like their
computer where, you know, theyleased back then, you know,
(27:07):
where they sold computers andstuff at Sam's and started
learning instead of just reallyteaching himself how to help
customers with their computersthat they brought in or issues
they had, understanding all ofthat, and and really self
trained. And this may really Iguess it's late nineties, in in
kind of a pre Internet era, selftrained on the technical skills
(27:30):
on that stuff. And turned thatexperience after a number of
years working at Sam's Club, nodidn't go to college, into a
technical role kind of, youknow, frontline help desk kind
of thing and moved on, rose theladder, and then was running all
(27:51):
the server farm for a a largeInternet company that we most of
us, at least those of us who aresing who who might have ever
recently been single and datedwould be familiar with and, you
know, earned credentials,studied, learned a lot of things
along the way, but no collegedegree.
And that gateway job for him wasjust the luck of the draw that
(28:14):
one day somebody sent him overto work in the computer section
at Sam's versus working, youknow, in the food section or
whatever. But, you know, foundhis skill set, you know, the the
you know, developed the skillsthat his aptitudes were were
right for. So if I'm I've Ifound that employer and I'm
saying, okay. I'm gonna moveaway from just just looking at
(28:38):
degrees, and I wanna look atcompetencies. But how do I use
competencies?
And I've got definite opinionson this because it's what we do.
But how do I use competenciesearly enough in the process to
really filter my candidates?What would you tell them?
Audrey Mickahail (28:53):
Well, there are a couple of things I'd say.
I I think one of the points I'dmake up front was when we just
discussed, which is I I dothink, and we've all been guilty
of it, that many folks in thehiring scenario really
identifying think they're hiringfor an entry level role or think
they're hiring for more of aspecialist role, but then define
(29:14):
a set of competencies and andput a set of requirements in a
job description that are reallydifficult to meet. And I think
the key thing for folks torecognize about that is you
could go that route, but youwill elongate your hiring
process. You will add expense toit, and you may not find that
right person because the realityis that with every think of it
(29:36):
as as a you're starting out witha big pie of potential
candidates, and every additionalrequirement that you add and
every, like, wish list item thatyou add to that, either job
description or as you go throughthe talent acquisition process,
your screening will reduce thepool further and further. And
(29:56):
we've, you know, done someresearch looking at what that
actually means from a what isthe viable talent answering the
question of what is the viabletalent pool in a in a given
scenario for a given role.
So I think that's where I thinkbeing pragmatic and limiting the
number of skills or competenciesyou're looking for, and then
(30:19):
being really clear about whatyou're testing for throughout
the talent acquisition process.One of the things that you
mentioned, Mike, that I think isreally important is that you
used a, what, you know, what wemight call a performance task or
a challenge prompt
Mike Coffey (30:35):
Mhmm.
Audrey Mickahail (30:35):
Which is you were really clear about what
success looked like and what wasmust have. And then you provided
you did some kind of talentassessment or some kind of skill
assessment to ascertain that ina more reliable way than
interviewing, which is not allthat reliable and I think
privileges those individuals whohappen to be good at
(30:56):
interviewing, or test someonefor their ability to write good
keywords on a resume. So I thinkthat's one of the things that I
would, really encourage folks todo. Understand what's must have,
what's day one, and be be veryexplicit and and thoughtful
about what you're looking for ateach stage of the process so
(31:17):
that you're either you avoidthat doubling up, you run an
efficient process on your end,and that you don't try to find
as as the talent acquisitionfolks like to call, like, the
purple squirrels or purpleunicorns.
Mike Coffey (31:31):
Yeah. And and the thing that we do is right at the
very beginning of theapplication process before we've
we even know who they are, theyalso complete some basic skills,
online skills assessments. Andfor my analyst role, I can train
anybody who's bright enough tobe a really good analyst. If
(31:53):
they if if if they, you know, ifthey if they can put a subject
and a verb in a sentence withappropriate punctuation, and
they can read information andextract it back out and
summarize it in a way that makessense, I can probably train them
to do this job. And then I'malso looking for people who can
(32:15):
sit in front of a computermonitor for two or three, you
know, hours at a time, then getup and then go back and do it
again.
Somebody unlike me, you know,somebody who's very, you know,
I'm you know, not ADHD and, youknow, somebody who can and and
do that kind of work. And sowe've even designed our
employment application itself,our online process, to be a
(32:37):
little bit more tedious becauseit would run somebody like me
off. You know? I I'm you know,just I would self select out of
the process, and we also tellthem in that job description,
one of the things where Iactually get them to give me
text, you know, written youknow, something you know, show
(32:57):
me you can write a sentence withwith appropriate punctuation and
grammar, is I tell there's aparagraph. It tells them this is
a really tedious job.
You're gonna be sitting in frontof a computer monitor, two or
three computer monitors for, youknow, most of your day, very
little social interaction, andgo through all that. And then I
say, what in your experiencewould suggest you'd be a good
fit for this? Maybe they tell mesomething good, maybe they
(33:19):
don't, but I'm mostly readingthe answers to see if they can
write. Yeah. Because ourdelivered product on the
background investigation side ofthe business is a written
product, and and my clients needto you know, it needs to make
sense.
It needs to be simple andconcise. And and so we get
through that. Somebody getsthrough all of that process and
our our behavioral assessmentitself, which I think the whole
(33:41):
our whole application process isalso a behavior assessment, and
they match our general loosecriteria there. They're not like
me. In other words, I can almosthire anybody who gets through
that process.
I, you know, I interview them,but I've got extreme introverts
who have a hard time making eyecontact even in a video camera.
Versa and and then I've got somemuch more buoyant personalities,
(34:06):
but they all are able to do thejob, and I'm lucky to have every
one of them.
Audrey Mickahail (34:11):
I love that, Mike. And I think one of the
things that you're highlightingso nicely for folks and I do
think this is almost like thetwo zero one level of how how do
you really match your needs toavailable talent. Because at the
end of the day, from from anemployer perspective, that's
what we're trying to help folksdo and help them do that in a
way that is opening upopportunities and pipelines that
(34:33):
they may not even be aware of.And what you've so nicely
demonstrated is that you'vecreated a process that's fit for
purpose for the roles that youhave. And you've been clear in
demonstrating, you know what?
I have some introverts. I havesome extroverts that that's not
a differentiator in terms ofwhat makes someone successful in
role. But their ability to stickwith a task and to pay attention
(34:58):
to detail and to sustain theirattention and energy, that's
some of the stuff that I think,can be really, first of all,
important to understand that isnot necessarily a hard skill,
but it is one that isdifferentiating in the context
of the work that you're doingand the context of the
(35:20):
organization and the environmentthat you have built. And so I
think that's one of the mostimportant things for folks to
understand and sit with, andparticularly where where
sometimes we see disconnectsbetween hiring managers and HR
professionals, is what are themaybe, non obvious
(35:42):
considerations? And fit can be afraught subject for folks, but
it is so important tounderstand, without getting
into, like, who's cool and who'snot cool, who's gonna fit in and
who's not gonna fit in.
It's really not
Mike Coffey (35:58):
a matter of, do I wanna go fishing with this guy
on Saturday morning.
Audrey Mickahail (36:01):
That's right. Exactly right. And that I think
is a really key point toemphasize because what we're not
talking about is who's gonna,you know, be the life of the
party and who's gonna be belovedby everyone, but rather
Mike Coffey (36:14):
That's my job.
Audrey Mickahail (36:15):
Yes. Exactly. And and there's only one you, so
let's not get it get itconfused. But for an individual
coming in and needing to thrivewithin a set of tasks and and a
job description, how can weunderstand both the skill that
they need to bring in on dayone, what can be taught over the
course of their onboarding, andby the way, I think that's an
(36:38):
area for folks to really be morethoughtful about. And what are
the circumstances in the contextof the work?
So are you in a very large, veryprocess oriented organization
where folks need to becomfortable turning the crank
each and every day in a similarway? Or are you in an
organization that's a startupwhere ambiguity is the is the
(36:59):
reality that folks have to livein? Those are, I think, later in
the process conversations, butones that are also important. So
takes us a little bit out of theskills only, topic. But
certainly, as folks are thinkingabout how might we pick an
individual who not only has theskill they need rather than a
(37:22):
particular degree or credential,but also start to get more
sophisticated in understandingwhat are the circumstances in
which they'll be operating.
Mike Coffey (37:31):
And that is a a great place to end it mostly
because we're out of timebecause I I really I I'm sure
there's so much more we couldtalk about about when somebody
is onboarded, what training youoffer, how do you prepare your
current workforce for whateverthe next skill sets are gonna
look like. And then maybe thingslike apprenticeships and and
stuff like that that I knowwe're seeing more of not just in
(37:53):
trades now. We're beginning tosee white collar
apprenticeships. So I'm gonnatry to, squeeze you back on our
calendar. I want you back sothat we can talk about some of
those other things.
So once I've got this star onboard or I've identified a star
internally who maybe was gonnago a different career path, how
can I incorporate those? So, Ihope we can we can do that again
(38:14):
later this year.
Audrey Mickahail (38:14):
That would be great, Mike. I think there's so
much more to talk about withrespect to how do we make
onboarding effective so thathiring stars doesn't become a
revolving door. And I think younamed some of the big trends
that we're starting to see.You're exactly right.
Apprenticeship has gone wellbeyond the trades, and we see
really exciting, not intuitiveorganizations experimenting with
(38:36):
apprenticeship in reallypowerful ways.
Mike Coffey (38:38):
Very cool. Well, thanks for joining me, Audrey. I
really appreciate it.
Audrey Mickahail (38:41):
Thank you, Mike. This has been fun.
Mike Coffey (38:43):
And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, please write us areview on Apple Podcasts,
YouTube, or wherever you'relistening. It helps other people
find us. And if it's not toomuch to ask, find us on LinkedIn
or Facebook or Instagram andshare this episode. Tell people
how much you enjoyed it.
It helps spread the news. RobUpchurch is our technical
(39:07):
producer, and you can reach himat rob makes pods dot com. And
thank you to Imperative'smarketing coordinator, Mary Ann
Hernandez, who keeps the trainsrunning on time. And I'm Mike
Coffey. As always, don'thesitate to reach out if I can
be of service to you personallyor professionally.
I'll see you next week and untilthen, be well, do good, and keep
(39:30):
your chin up.
It's not just being very clear about what
success looks like in a rolefrom a skill perspective, but
also what does it look like tobe successful on day one, and
what can someone learn once theyonce they're on the job?
Mike Coffey (00:17):
Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of
Imperative, bulletproofbackground checks with fast and
friendly service. And this isthe podcast where I talk to
business leaders about bringingpeople together to create value
for shareholders, customers, andthe community. For several
generations, the expectation wasthat if you get a college
degree, any degree, there'd be ajob out there waiting for you.
(00:40):
However, in reality, the averageUS College Student graduates
with over $38,000 in debt.
Often only to find that theirdegree did not prepare them with
the skills that employers areactually seeking. Additionally,
evolving technology and rapidchange in the business
environment often mean that whatsomeone learned in college ten
(01:02):
years ago may not meet today'sjob requirements. And because so
much focus has been placed oncollege prep, training for well
paying technical andadministrative positions, and
even jobs in the trades has beende emphasized. On the employer
side, college degrees havebecome the default credential
for many roles, creating whattoday's guest calls a paper
(01:25):
ceiling for candidates who canactually do the job, but they
can't even get an interviewbecause they don't have a four
year degree. But as unemploymenthas returned to near record
lows, many companies arereconsidering the criteria by
which they evaluate prospectiveemployees.
Many are embracing alternativeroutes to skill development. I'm
(01:46):
joined today by Audrey Mccahill.Audrey is senior vice president
of private sector and membershipexperience at Opportunity at
Work, an organization whosemission is to rewire The US
labor market so that allindividuals skilled through
alternative routes, STARS, canwork, learn, and earn to their
(02:09):
full potential. Welcome to GoodMorning HR, Audrey.
Audrey Mickahail (02:12):
Thank you so much, Mike. It's a delight to be
here.
Mike Coffey (02:15):
So I mentioned the paper ceiling, and I know
OpportunityWork uses that thatterm a lot. Describe what the
paper ceiling is and and whatproblems it it it causes for
both employers and, and jobseekers.
Audrey Mickahail (02:33):
Well, the paper ceiling is that barrier
that workers face when employersoften unwittingly or without
even questioning their basicassumptions about workers place
a barrier and that can thatbarrier to employment can be at
the initial stage when a workeris applying for a job. Or
(02:56):
frankly, what we increasinglyhear from folks is they may be
able to make an entry into anorganization, but perhaps that
barrier will creep up on themwhen they're looking for
mobility, they're looking fortheir next opportunity. You
know, it's partly a factor ofour technology. It's partly a
factor of, well, this is the waywe've done things. It can be a
(03:19):
matter of unexaminedassumptions.
But I will also say that ourresearch has found that it's one
of the consequences of the greatrecession. We saw STARS, workers
who are skilled throughalternative routes rather than a
bachelor's degree, lose groundafter the great recession when
(03:39):
you may remember this, Mike.Talent acquisition leaders were
just flooded with applicationsat that time. And so one of the
things that we we saw happenthen was, an increasing use of
degree screening just as a meansof of trying to filter
applications that, you know, itwas a perhaps a reasonable
(04:01):
reaction to the moment, but Ithink it's a hack that has long
outlived its usefulness at thispoint.
Mike Coffey (04:08):
And well, and even then, in 02/2009, '2 thousand
'10, I was arguing, you know, inmy conversations with our
clients, our employer clients,that that kind of shortcut
probably is not serving you. Youknow, I I I've been a advocate
for skills based hiring. I cameout of aerospace and then health
care. And in health care, Imean, certainly, there are
(04:31):
degree requirements andcertification requirements, but
the bottom line is competencies.And can you, you know, can you
demonstrate these specificcompetencies?
And I think a lot of employersare just really beginning to
wake up to the fact that inorder to do this job, these are
(04:51):
the five things someone has tobe able to do. And that's all
I'm really concerned about. I'mI'm I'm concerned about their
cultural fit, you know, theshare of values, all those
things, which are reallyimportant. But, you know, as far
as, you know, did this personattend, you know, a university
(05:11):
or or whatever it was, what youknow, whatever that their their
traditional criteria has been tomeasure someone, you know, at
that first or second level of ofreview may not maybe making it
harder for them to hire the bestcandidates. I mean, certainly,
it's easy to hire warm bodies,and you can certainly find
people with degrees, but thatdoesn't mean that those people
(05:34):
are gonna be the ones thatreally have the skills that you
Audrey Mickahail (05:36):
need. We think that's exactly right. And you've
mentioned it in your intro, butone of the things that we often
ask folks when we areintroducing this topic to them
is we think we ask them, okay,think about the skills that
you're deploying day in and dayout on your job. And
particularly once you get pastthe first few years of your
(05:58):
career, where did you gain thoseskills? I think for me, for
sure, there's very little that Ilearned in college that is
really serving me today.
And we would argue that, youknow, most people are learning
their skills day in and day outby showing up by showing up day
(06:20):
in and day out and learning onthe job. And in fact, even for
folks who are really in inrather senior positions, their
journeys to their seniorpositions often included some
interesting detours or lateralmoves or stretch opportunities.
I think that's a natural if youthink about your own journey
through your career. And it's ashame then, and it's certainly,
(06:44):
I think, counterintuitive andcounterproductive to think about
that degree that someone may ormay not have have attained many,
many years ago as being ascontinuing to be relevant.
Mike Coffey (06:57):
You know, one of the things I hear when I'm
having these conversations withemployers, is, well, you know,
even if the college degree isnot relevant, it still
demonstrates that the personcould stick with something and,
you know, and actually completea project, you know, really
fight through something. And myanswer to them is always, do you
(07:18):
really have a culture where youneed people who can just grind
through and stick with somethingand, you know, who without
examining other options? Is thatreally what, you know, your
workplace is is hiring for? Ithink that's more of a defense
mechanism for their currenthiring, you know, the status quo
then it is a really a a realbusiness imperative to find
(07:42):
people, you know, because quitehonestly, that person who didn't
go to school and, you know,maybe they worked, fast food and
did temp jobs and and gig workor whatever came along, for four
years. They were still doingsomething and maybe hustling
harder than a lot of collegestudents had to hustle for that
(08:03):
four years.
And I'll say, you know, in ourexperience, one of my best
analysts on our backgroundinvestigation side of the
business, she worked in theservice industry, in the food
food service industry for thefive years out of out of high
school before she came to workfor us. And now she's she is one
of my best analysts. And, shewas she's an avid reader. She's
(08:26):
got a deep understanding ofEnglish language, how to write
things, how to say things. She'sa great problem solver.
College was not an option forher. And, you know, it worked
out to my to my benefit thatI've got this amazing analyst
who, you know, just happened torandomly apply for our job and
passed our initial competencytest that we present through the
(08:48):
application process, and we endup hiring her. And she's
amazing.
Audrey Mickahail (08:52):
Mike, I think you have described the story
that so many people experience.And, you know, there's a simple
notion here that tear the paperceiling represents, which is
simply if you can do the job,you should be able to get the
job. You should get the job. Andthe truth of the matter is, I
think, by including, especiallyearly on in the process before
(09:18):
you've really had an opportunityto assess people's skills. When
you choose that degree screen asa de facto, early step in the
process, you're doing a numberof things that I think are not
intentional on the part of mostemployers.
The first thing that you'redoing that I think is quite
(09:39):
damaging is that you areactually preventing yourself if
you're a hiring manager oryou're in a talent acquisition
role, is that you're blindingyourself to the skills of those
applicants. The second thingthat you're doing, and and
certainly, I think the thechallenge here is one of
(10:01):
recognizing what your goals areas an organization. So for
example, when you insist or whenyou include a degree screening
step, you're eliminating fromconsideration big chunks of the
population. I mean, the realityis stars are 70,000,000 workers
in this country out of a40,000,000 workers who are
(10:24):
active in today's labor market.And that includes the majority
of men.
That includes the majority ofwhite workers, of black workers,
of Hispanic workers, ofveterans, of older workers. To
say nothing of the demographiccliff that we're about to embark
on where both from a raw numbersperspective and from a
(10:48):
percentage of the workforce, weare seeing fewer individuals
choose college as their as theirroute. And I should name this. I
hope it's obvious, but I shouldsay upfront, we are like,
college is a great opportunityif it's right for you. But I
think what the college for allargument misses is that that may
(11:11):
not be someone's preference.
That may not be an opportunity.And I think, you know, forgive
the expression, but damningfolks who choose other options
or other routes into theworkforce to lower wages and for
and to being paid for theirlabor rather than their skill is
both a that's a problem foremployers and it's a problem for
(11:35):
workers. We talk to employersall the time who are starting,
as you alluded to earlier, toappreciate that they have real
needs that are not being filledtoday with workers if they're
only looking at individuals whohave attained that bachelor's
degree. And so the the values, Ithink, of Skills First Hiring,
(11:57):
and you're clearly a leader hereand ahead of your time, But
those values are starting tocatch up with us, and that's the
good news. I think part of it isthe campaign, the tear the paper
ceiling campaign and hopefullythe impact it's had in showing
workers who are genuinelyenthusiastic about their work,
(12:18):
who are ambitious, who haveproven out the skills that you
referenced in ways other than abachelor's degree.
So to your point earlier about,well, if you've gone through
college and you've stuck withit, you've proven something,
great. That's a fantastic way toprove that you can complete a
(12:38):
four year degree. But is it theonly way to prove that you have
skills? Is it the only way toprove that you have grit? I
would argue that it's not.
I think that perception that,college proves something about
you is a little limiting. Itmay, in fact, prove something
about you, but it's not the onlyway to to to prove to prove that
(13:01):
point.
Mike Coffey (13:02):
Yeah. And I would argue in and of itself, it
doesn't tell you anything aboutthe person. I mean, I I know
people with PhDs who, you know,quite honestly, would have a
hard time finding their own rearend with both hands. And, you're
welcome listeners that I waspolite this time. But, the idea
out there and I'll I'll I'll gofull disclosure here.
(13:25):
I dropped out of well, I Iworked full time through
college. And then when I was inmy early twenties, I dropped out
to start my first company. Iflew that airplane right into
the side of a mountain, but Ilearned so much in that two
years. I learned I mean, thatwas an MBA and, you know, and it
was it was about as expensive asan MBA. And and then I went back
(13:46):
to school when I went back tocorporate world for about five
years, but then got married, sohaving kids, never finished it,
then started this company twentysix years ago.
And my boss won't give me araise if I go get it if I finish
that last 13 of that degree, andso I don't have one. So, maybe
it's maybe it's easy to say, oh,yeah. Mike Coffey doesn't have a
degree, so he's he's passionateof those folks who have them,
(14:07):
but I'm not. But I'm saying thatI, you know, I'm interested in
what somebody on day one when Ihire somebody. What can they do
for me?
How quickly can I get them up tospeed? And maybe that person
who's hustled, who's workedhard, done a lot of different
things can demonstrate to mejust as much as that person who
(14:30):
got that that degree, maybe thatadvanced degree, and and really
had to you know, maybe theyworked their way through school.
They did a lot of things. Iwanna know the whole thing,
though. I don't I don't wannaknow just you got a piece paper.
Tell me the background of ofwhat that experience was like.
What did you learn aboutleadership, interpersonal
relationships, whatever elseduring college, which is a great
place to do that. But I think weemphasize even there too much
(14:54):
about colleges, you know, bringsthis special unique value
because of leadership, thesethings. I'm sorry. If I'm
working in a McDonald's with,you know, maybe 80 other
employees rotating throughdifferent shifts, I'm gonna
learn a lot about interpersonaldynamics, about negotiating with
people, about, you know, maybe Iget to be a supervisor, how to
(15:16):
manage all kinds of differentfolks.
There's a you know, I think youcan develop those skills early
in your career, whatever you'redoing, if you if you just are if
you're if you have the aptitudeto look for those opportunities.
Audrey Mickahail (15:29):
I mean, I would add to that list. You
learn to deal with prior or toyou learn prioritization. You
learn conflict resolution. Youlearn how to, manage multiple
demands simultaneously. And andand furthermore, on the
contrasting side, again, not notto take anything away from
college at all.
One of the things I've learnedin my career, I've managed lots
(15:51):
of folks who were early incareer professionals who had
that bachelor's degree. And onething they struggle with so we
you talked about grit earlier.And folks who've been through
college know how to completeoften know how to complete a
task, one that's complex, andthen they hand it in. And one
thing I would tell you as a as amanager today and someone who's
(16:14):
managed folks for a long time isthat's great, but can you take
feedback and incorporate it? Canyou stick with a project even
when your stakeholders tell youyou're off base?
Can you go back to the startingboard? And so I think those are
things that you uniquely learnin the workplace when, you know,
(16:35):
you don't have the privilege orthe luck of being able to just
finish an assignment, turn itin, and never look back. Often
in work, you actually have toiterate and cocreate with a wide
variety of people. And I think,that's one of those things that,
you know, again, it's not totake anything away from college
at all, but how many peoplereally thrive in group projects
(16:56):
that you you had to do when youwere in school? Often you try
and get away from that as soonas you can.
You can't do that. It worked.You actually do have to
negotiate and navigate anditerate quite a bit. Didn't mean
to rhyme there, but there yougo.
Mike Coffey (17:12):
It worked. So maybe you should have stayed and got a
a poetry degree. But, if I'm anemployer and I'm recognizing
that, you know, there's there'sprobably a pool a talent pool
out there that I'm not tappinginto. And so we we need to
reevaluate maybe some of our ourour reliance on those
(17:33):
credentials. Where should Istart?
You know, what's that first stepif an employer comes to
OpportunityWork and says, hey.How do I go about this? What
does that look like?
Audrey Mickahail (17:44):
Well, Mike, I think one of the things that we
start with is where are yourneeds? What is your what is the
business problem you are tryingto solve? Because, ultimately,
that is what's going to makechange sustainable and worth the
squeeze in the long run. Mhmm.For, you know, the past couple
of decades, I've worked withexecutives in various kinds of
(18:07):
management challenges thatthey've faced.
I come from a research andadvisory background. And one
thing that is very clear to meafter all of these years is that
you have to understand and workwith the needs of the
organization and the incentivesof the folks that you're working
with. So we at Opportunity atWork don't come at this work
from a wanting folks to, youknow, do the right thing just
(18:32):
for the sake of it being theright thing. We actually want
the right thing to be the rightbusiness decision. And
increasingly where we try tofocus is helping organizations
make that right thing the easything for them to do, the thing
that solves their problem.
So when we work with HR, peoplein culture folks, we start with,
(18:55):
what is your need? What's yourpain point? What are the roles
that you're struggling to fill?What's the cost to your
organization of not fillingthose roles? And that's that
takes us a pretty far way downthe path.
There are other organizationsthat say, you know, actually,
we're less worried in thismoment about hiring and more
(19:16):
worried about retaining thetalent we have already
recruited. And so that's anincreasingly frequent
conversation for us. And there,the same sort of DNA of
understanding skills and skilledpathways is a similar
conversation. What are the rolesthat you're trying to fill?
Where are you trying to retainpeople?
(19:39):
What are the positions in yourorganization that are great
springboards to mobility foryour workers? And what I've
found is that folks often have areally good intuition about what
those roles are. So for example,in our research, what we see,
and we call them gateway jobs.Gateway jobs are those jobs that
(20:00):
are accessible from lower wagepositions, and they open up
tremendous pathways for thoseworkers. So they're things like
computer support specialist orhelp desk technician.
They're jobs that are oftenincredible springboards to
opportunities for workers oncethey've spent a bit of time in
them. And when we talk to largeenterprises, they often have
(20:23):
those roles. It may not be theexact ones that I just
mentioned, but they're oftenplaces where people can find
their feet, so to speak, theycan get their start, they can
build some of the foundationalskills that they may need. And
those skills give them, again, aspringboard of opportunity into
other pathways, whether thoseare, you know, ladders up or
(20:46):
lateral moves. And we seecompanies actually being very
thoughtful in certain cases.
Again, not necessarily amainstream practice yet, but we
see progress in this area oncefolks understood that as a
business need they wanted toretain people to get really more
(21:06):
precise and deeper in theirunderstanding of the pathways
that folks are traversing bylooking at what are the
transitions that are being madeby their workers, whether
internally or where our analysistends to focus is what are the
transitions that workers aremaking in the labor market writ
(21:26):
large. And often there's reallygood insight for employers for
how to not only retain andadvance their workers, but also
how to think about recruitment.So we have a tool that's free
for the public, and anyone canuse. It's called Starsight, and
that's s tarsight. It's atstarsight.org.
(21:49):
It's free to use. But one of thethings that tool enables folks
to do is to understand for theirgiven role, for the for the role
that they're trying to hire fromor for, I should say, the role
they are trying to hire for,what is the predecessor role
that a worker might have had?What are real labor market
(22:11):
transitions that workers havemade into that job? And what
that enables someone to do is tothink about, well, is there a
skills proximate job that Imight recruit from? Maybe I have
those jobs in my organizationalready or maybe this gives me a
sense for how to recruit someonewho's almost there and I might,
(22:35):
as an employer, top them up,give them that little bit of
onboarding or training thatmight get them that last few
percentage points, of skillbuilding that they might need.
So really thinking, like, howmight you start? What are the
open roles that you have? Whatare the hard to fill roles? What
are the high volume roles thatyou as an organization have? And
(23:00):
I think one of the things that'sinteresting about that
consideration in creating astrategy where you might start
with removing degree screens isthere's so much interest in new
to world roles and AI and rolesthat didn't exist in the past.
And in those situations, onereally has an opportunity to
(23:21):
question whether or not thatdegree screen is even relevant.
Because I think one of thethings where you're seeing very
clearly and I actually, have ason who is he's in art school.
So, you know
Mike Coffey (23:35):
I feel your pain. I'm paying for a clarinet degree
right now for so, you know, foryeah. Who's he's an amazing
clarinetist.
Audrey Mickahail (23:41):
It and we need we need clarinetists, Mike. We
need them. So it all to say
Mike Coffey (23:47):
Unfortunately, we only need one or two in every
orchestra. That's my biggestconcern. But anyway
Audrey Mickahail (23:51):
I hear you. I hear you. I my my son is a
photography major. So, you know,all to say that those are some
of these new to world roles areplaces where actually the the
post secondary system hasn'tcaught up yet. And so you hear
this tragic story of there beingdegree screens or requirements
that actually are impossible tomeet because the job description
(24:15):
is not an accurate reflectionof, for example, how long the
technology has been in use orwhether or not there are
appropriate credentials alignedwith with a particular skill.
Those are great opportunities torethink what might you know,
what are the core skills youneed on day one? That was
something I think you, alludedto earlier in the conversation.
(24:38):
It's not just being very clearabout what success looks like in
a role from a skill perspective,but also what does it look like
to be successful on day one, andwhat can someone learn once they
once they're on the job?
Mike Coffey (24:53):
And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is
brought to you by Imperative,bulletproof background checks
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recognize the advantages ofremote work in attracting and
(25:14):
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Foreign actors like North Korea,fraudulent employment verifiers,
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(25:36):
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(25:59):
webinar is free and preapprovedfor recertification credit. You
can register or watch therecording later by clicking on
the education tab atcomparativeinfo.com, where you
can also find all of mypreviously recorded webinars.
If you're an HRCI or SHRMcertified professional, this
episode of Good Morning HR hasbeen pre approved for one half
(26:22):
hour of recertification credit.To obtain the recertification
information, visitgoodmorninghr.com and click on
research credits. Then selectepisode one ninety and enter the
keyword stars. That's s t a r s.And now back to my conversation
with Audrey Micahel.
And you were talking aboutgateway rules and it reminded me
(26:45):
of a family member who's wickedsmart guy. His father is a
mechanic, owns a mechanic shop,and he always was very good with
the, you know, those kind ofthings. High school gets a job
at a Sam's Club, and this is inin the early aughts, starts
working on what they called hardlines, which is like their
computer where, you know, theyleased back then, you know,
(27:07):
where they sold computers andstuff at Sam's and started
learning instead of just reallyteaching himself how to help
customers with their computersthat they brought in or issues
they had, understanding all ofthat, and and really self
trained. And this may really Iguess it's late nineties, in in
kind of a pre Internet era, selftrained on the technical skills
(27:30):
on that stuff. And turned thatexperience after a number of
years working at Sam's Club, nodidn't go to college, into a
technical role kind of, youknow, frontline help desk kind
of thing and moved on, rose theladder, and then was running all
(27:51):
the server farm for a a largeInternet company that we most of
us, at least those of us who aresing who who might have ever
recently been single and datedwould be familiar with and, you
know, earned credentials,studied, learned a lot of things
along the way, but no collegedegree.
And that gateway job for him wasjust the luck of the draw that
(28:14):
one day somebody sent him overto work in the computer section
at Sam's versus working, youknow, in the food section or
whatever. But, you know, foundhis skill set, you know, the the
you know, developed the skillsthat his aptitudes were were
right for. So if I'm I've Ifound that employer and I'm
saying, okay. I'm gonna moveaway from just just looking at
(28:38):
degrees, and I wanna look atcompetencies. But how do I use
competencies?
And I've got definite opinionson this because it's what we do.
But how do I use competenciesearly enough in the process to
really filter my candidates?What would you tell them?
Audrey Mickahail (28:53):
Well, there are a couple of things I'd say.
I I think one of the points I'dmake up front was when we just
discussed, which is I I dothink, and we've all been guilty
of it, that many folks in thehiring scenario really
identifying think they're hiringfor an entry level role or think
they're hiring for more of aspecialist role, but then define
(29:14):
a set of competencies and andput a set of requirements in a
job description that are reallydifficult to meet. And I think
the key thing for folks torecognize about that is you
could go that route, but youwill elongate your hiring
process. You will add expense toit, and you may not find that
right person because the realityis that with every think of it
(29:36):
as as a you're starting out witha big pie of potential
candidates, and every additionalrequirement that you add and
every, like, wish list item thatyou add to that, either job
description or as you go throughthe talent acquisition process,
your screening will reduce thepool further and further. And
(29:56):
we've, you know, done someresearch looking at what that
actually means from a what isthe viable talent answering the
question of what is the viabletalent pool in a in a given
scenario for a given role.
So I think that's where I thinkbeing pragmatic and limiting the
number of skills or competenciesyou're looking for, and then
(30:19):
being really clear about whatyou're testing for throughout
the talent acquisition process.One of the things that you
mentioned, Mike, that I think isreally important is that you
used a, what, you know, what wemight call a performance task or
a challenge prompt
Mike Coffey (30:35):
Mhmm.
Audrey Mickahail (30:35):
Which is you were really clear about what
success looked like and what wasmust have. And then you provided
you did some kind of talentassessment or some kind of skill
assessment to ascertain that ina more reliable way than
interviewing, which is not allthat reliable and I think
privileges those individuals whohappen to be good at
(30:56):
interviewing, or test someonefor their ability to write good
keywords on a resume. So I thinkthat's one of the things that I
would, really encourage folks todo. Understand what's must have,
what's day one, and be be veryexplicit and and thoughtful
about what you're looking for ateach stage of the process so
(31:17):
that you're either you avoidthat doubling up, you run an
efficient process on your end,and that you don't try to find
as as the talent acquisitionfolks like to call, like, the
purple squirrels or purpleunicorns.
Mike Coffey (31:31):
Yeah. And and the thing that we do is right at the
very beginning of theapplication process before we've
we even know who they are, theyalso complete some basic skills,
online skills assessments. Andfor my analyst role, I can train
anybody who's bright enough tobe a really good analyst. If
(31:53):
they if if if they, you know, ifthey if they can put a subject
and a verb in a sentence withappropriate punctuation, and
they can read information andextract it back out and
summarize it in a way that makessense, I can probably train them
to do this job. And then I'malso looking for people who can
(32:15):
sit in front of a computermonitor for two or three, you
know, hours at a time, then getup and then go back and do it
again.
Somebody unlike me, you know,somebody who's very, you know,
I'm you know, not ADHD and, youknow, somebody who can and and
do that kind of work. And sowe've even designed our
employment application itself,our online process, to be a
(32:37):
little bit more tedious becauseit would run somebody like me
off. You know? I I'm you know,just I would self select out of
the process, and we also tellthem in that job description,
one of the things where Iactually get them to give me
text, you know, written youknow, something you know, show
(32:57):
me you can write a sentence withwith appropriate punctuation and
grammar, is I tell there's aparagraph. It tells them this is
a really tedious job.
You're gonna be sitting in frontof a computer monitor, two or
three computer monitors for, youknow, most of your day, very
little social interaction, andgo through all that. And then I
say, what in your experiencewould suggest you'd be a good
fit for this? Maybe they tell mesomething good, maybe they
(33:19):
don't, but I'm mostly readingthe answers to see if they can
write. Yeah. Because ourdelivered product on the
background investigation side ofthe business is a written
product, and and my clients needto you know, it needs to make
sense.
It needs to be simple andconcise. And and so we get
through that. Somebody getsthrough all of that process and
our our behavioral assessmentitself, which I think the whole
(33:41):
our whole application process isalso a behavior assessment, and
they match our general loosecriteria there. They're not like
me. In other words, I can almosthire anybody who gets through
that process.
I, you know, I interview them,but I've got extreme introverts
who have a hard time making eyecontact even in a video camera.
Versa and and then I've got somemuch more buoyant personalities,
(34:06):
but they all are able to do thejob, and I'm lucky to have every
one of them.
Audrey Mickahail (34:11):
I love that, Mike. And I think one of the
things that you're highlightingso nicely for folks and I do
think this is almost like thetwo zero one level of how how do
you really match your needs toavailable talent. Because at the
end of the day, from from anemployer perspective, that's
what we're trying to help folksdo and help them do that in a
way that is opening upopportunities and pipelines that
(34:33):
they may not even be aware of.And what you've so nicely
demonstrated is that you'vecreated a process that's fit for
purpose for the roles that youhave. And you've been clear in
demonstrating, you know what?
I have some introverts. I havesome extroverts that that's not
a differentiator in terms ofwhat makes someone successful in
role. But their ability to stickwith a task and to pay attention
(34:58):
to detail and to sustain theirattention and energy, that's
some of the stuff that I think,can be really, first of all,
important to understand that isnot necessarily a hard skill,
but it is one that isdifferentiating in the context
of the work that you're doingand the context of the
(35:20):
organization and the environmentthat you have built. And so I
think that's one of the mostimportant things for folks to
understand and sit with, andparticularly where where
sometimes we see disconnectsbetween hiring managers and HR
professionals, is what are themaybe, non obvious
(35:42):
considerations? And fit can be afraught subject for folks, but
it is so important tounderstand, without getting
into, like, who's cool and who'snot cool, who's gonna fit in and
who's not gonna fit in.
It's really not
Mike Coffey (35:58):
a matter of, do I wanna go fishing with this guy
on Saturday morning.
Audrey Mickahail (36:01):
That's right. Exactly right. And that I think
is a really key point toemphasize because what we're not
talking about is who's gonna,you know, be the life of the
party and who's gonna be belovedby everyone, but rather
Mike Coffey (36:14):
That's my job.
Audrey Mickahail (36:15):
Yes. Exactly. And and there's only one you, so
let's not get it get itconfused. But for an individual
coming in and needing to thrivewithin a set of tasks and and a
job description, how can weunderstand both the skill that
they need to bring in on dayone, what can be taught over the
course of their onboarding, andby the way, I think that's an
(36:38):
area for folks to really be morethoughtful about. And what are
the circumstances in the contextof the work?
So are you in a very large, veryprocess oriented organization
where folks need to becomfortable turning the crank
each and every day in a similarway? Or are you in an
organization that's a startupwhere ambiguity is the is the
(36:59):
reality that folks have to livein? Those are, I think, later in
the process conversations, butones that are also important. So
takes us a little bit out of theskills only, topic. But
certainly, as folks are thinkingabout how might we pick an
individual who not only has theskill they need rather than a
(37:22):
particular degree or credential,but also start to get more
sophisticated in understandingwhat are the circumstances in
which they'll be operating.
Mike Coffey (37:31):
And that is a a great place to end it mostly
because we're out of timebecause I I really I I'm sure
there's so much more we couldtalk about about when somebody
is onboarded, what training youoffer, how do you prepare your
current workforce for whateverthe next skill sets are gonna
look like. And then maybe thingslike apprenticeships and and
stuff like that that I knowwe're seeing more of not just in
(37:53):
trades now. We're beginning tosee white collar
apprenticeships. So I'm gonnatry to, squeeze you back on our
calendar. I want you back sothat we can talk about some of
those other things.
So once I've got this star onboard or I've identified a star
internally who maybe was gonnago a different career path, how
can I incorporate those? So, Ihope we can we can do that again
(38:14):
later this year.
Audrey Mickahail (38:14):
That would be great, Mike. I think there's so
much more to talk about withrespect to how do we make
onboarding effective so thathiring stars doesn't become a
revolving door. And I think younamed some of the big trends
that we're starting to see.You're exactly right.
Apprenticeship has gone wellbeyond the trades, and we see
really exciting, not intuitiveorganizations experimenting with
(38:36):
apprenticeship in reallypowerful ways.
Mike Coffey (38:38):
Very cool. Well, thanks for joining me, Audrey. I
really appreciate it.
Audrey Mickahail (38:41):
Thank you, Mike. This has been fun.
Mike Coffey (38:43):
And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, please write us areview on Apple Podcasts,
YouTube, or wherever you'relistening. It helps other people
find us. And if it's not toomuch to ask, find us on LinkedIn
or Facebook or Instagram andshare this episode. Tell people
how much you enjoyed it.
It helps spread the news. RobUpchurch is our technical
(39:07):
producer, and you can reach himat rob makes pods dot com. And
thank you to Imperative'smarketing coordinator, Mary Ann
Hernandez, who keeps the trainsrunning on time. And I'm Mike
Coffey. As always, don'thesitate to reach out if I can
be of service to you personallyor professionally.
I'll see you next week and untilthen, be well, do good, and keep
(39:30):
your chin up.
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