March 13, 2025 • 38 mins
In episode 191, Coffey talks with Dr. Matt Zakreski about leveraging neurodivergent employees’ unique strengths.
They discuss the prevalence of neurodivergence in the workplace; the various types of neurodivergence beyond autism; the concept of masking and its impact on employees; how to avoid tokenism through universal design; strategies for clear communication with neurodivergent employees; the importance of creating appropriate incentives and accommodations; preparing neurotypical employees to work effectively with neurodivergent colleagues.
Good Morning, HR is brought to you by Imperative—Bulletproof Background Checks. For more information about our commitment to quality and excellent customer service, visit us at https://imperativeinfo.com.
If you are an HRCI or SHRM-certified professional, this episode of Good Morning, HR has been pre-approved for half a recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information for this episode, visit https://goodmorninghr.com.
About our Guest:
Matthew "Dr. Matt" Zakreski, PsyD is a professional speaker and clinical psychologist who specializes in working with neurodivergent (gifted, 2e, ADHD, Autism, Dyslexia, etc.) people. He has spoken nearly a thousand times all over the world about supporting neurodivergent people in all walks of life, from schools to college to the workplace. Dr. Matt specializes in taking knowledge of the brain, human behavior, and clinical psychology and making that accessible and practical for people to improve their lives. When it comes to working with organizations, Dr. Matt is an expert at helping everyone to grow in a meaningful, authentic way based on skills that stick with you well after he’s left the stage. Everyone deserves to have a better life; the more we know about ourselves and our brains, the better we can meet those goals. He is the co-founder of The Neurodiversity Collective, LLC and the author of the Neurodiversity Playbook: How Neurodivergent People Can Crack the Code of Living in a Neurotypical World.
Dr. Matt Zakreski can be reached at
http://www.drmattzakreski.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-zakreski-0a32358/
https://www.facebook.com/drmattzakreski
https://www.instagram.com/drmattzakreski
Purchase his book here: https://www.amazon.com/Neurodiversity-Playbook-Neurodivergent-People-Neurotypical/dp/195336036X
Book Dr. Matt for speaking, coaching, or consulting services here:
https://www.drmattzakreski.com/blank-3
Dr. Matt's new podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nerding-out-on-neurodiversity/id1771917660
About Mike Coffey:
Mike Coffey is an entrepreneur, licensed private investigator, business strategist, HR consultant, and registered yoga teacher.
In 1999, he founded Imperative, a background investigations and due diligence firm helping risk-averse clients make well-informed decisions about the people they involve in their business.
Imperative delivers in-depth employment background investigations, know-your-customer and anti-money laundering compliance, and due diligence investigations to more than 300 risk-averse corporate clients across the US, and, through its PFC C
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (00:00):
It's a question of knowing that
strengths exist and thinkingabout how we can adjust things
internally and externally toplay those people's strengths.
Once we do that, I mean, you'vefountain, you know, a diamond in
the rough, and it's amazing tosee what these people can do.
Mike Coffey (00:22):
Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of
Imperative, bulletproofbackground checks with fast and
friendly service. And this isthe podcast where I talk to
business leaders about bringingpeople together to create value
for shareholders, customers, andthe community. Please follow,
rate, and review Good Morning HRwherever ever you get your
podcast and on your favoritesocial media platform. You can
(00:45):
also find us atgoodmorninghr.com.
Back in January, I spoke toNikki Drader Meza and doctor
Jenny Lopez Kidwell about theirresearch into neurodiversity
hiring and socialization. Andthen I spoke to Ron Fish about
the challenges neurodiverseindividuals have in applying,
interviewing, and acculturatingin the workplace. We return to
(01:07):
that topic today with doctorMatthew Zakreski, author of The
Neurodiversity Playbook, HowNeurodivergent People Can Crack
the Code of Living in aNeurotypical World, which was
released last December. DoctorMatt is a clinical psychologist
who specializes in working withneurodivergent people. He is
also a conference speaker andadvocate for supporting
(01:30):
neurodivergent people in allwalks of life, from school to
college to the workplace.
And he is the cofounder of theNeurodiversity Collective, an
online consulting and therapyprivate practice. Welcome to
Good Morning HR, Matt.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (01:45):
Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me.
Mike Coffey (01:47):
So you this has been a hot topic for us for
about a year now. I think you'reactually the this is the fourth
episode we've done in in about ayear's time on, working with
neurodivergent and autistic,employees. And while we continue
to have a talent crunch, I thinkmore and more employ employers
are are still considering how dowe do this. But what do you
(02:08):
think the most commonmisconceptions employers have
when when they're thinking aboutbringing neurodiverse employees
into the workplace?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (02:17):
Well and I know you've done a bunch of
topics on this because I'velistened to all of them. So I
get to be a fan and a guest.It's the best of both worlds. So
there's this idea out there thatneurodivergent people are this
small niche thing. It's adiversity hire.
We're checking a box. Do youknow one out of five people are
(02:38):
neurodivergent? So this isn'tjust, oh, gosh. It's the one guy
in the mail room. This is if youhave five people in your c
suite, odds are one of them isneurodivergent.
Right? Your marketingdepartment, your sales team,
your shipping department. Imean, this is neurodivergence is
everybody's world. So that's whypeople like me try and get out
(03:02):
there to to talk about this.Right?
Because the more we talk aboutit, the more we realize that
we're we are all already doingthis work, but now we can do it
with more intention and supportmore people because we know what
we're doing.
Mike Coffey (03:15):
So when people are talking about neurodiverse, the
first thing that comes to mindfor most folks are autistic
individuals, people working inin with that set of challenges.
But, but you're you're includingin that topic people like me
with ADHD. And what else? Whatother things are do we encounter
in the workplace?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (03:34):
So ADHD, autism, dyslexia is a big one.
One out of 10 people aredyslexic, so that's a huge
number. OCD is anotherneurodivergence that we see a
lot of, and my subspecialty isgiftedness. So gifted is about
one in fifty, and giftedness isa neurodivergence that comes
(03:55):
with significant braindifferences, strengths, and
weaknesses. So if you havesomeone who is in your office
that it's funny.
When I consult the schools, Ialways ask teachers, like, do
you have a kid who really pissesyou off? Like, kid is like, if
they could just get their shittogether, and then the sometimes
the teachers laugh like, yes.It's Johnny or Sally. I'm like
Mike Coffey (04:15):
And that was me, but not necessarily because I
was gifted. I don't know thatpart. But, yeah, definitely,
that was me. Yeah. Talks toooften.
You know, when the when you hadpaper report cards and they
would check check mark thethings you were not doing well,
mine was just a straight line ofcheck marks every six weeks
about talks at appropriatetimes.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (04:33):
He will not shut up. Oh my gosh. Well and
that's the thing because whenyou have a person whose brain
doesn't fit the environment weput them in, you feel more
friction. Right? Neurotypicalbrains are more able to sort of
go along to get along.
Neurodivergent brains are like,listen. I will fly you to the
moon if it's everything I need.But if this thing's in my way,
(04:55):
I'm just only gonna be stuck onthis thing that's in my way. So
when I talk to HR professionals,I'm like, is there somebody in
sales that you're like, if theywould only get their stuff
together? And they always lookat each other like, oh, it's x y
z person.
I'm like, here's how we tweak itto get the best version of that
person because that person islikely a neuro neurodivergent
person.
Mike Coffey (05:16):
And I'm in the entrepreneurs organization, so
we've got 30,000 plusentrepreneurs, successful
entrepreneurs across the world.And the there's two kinds. You
know, there's the folks who madea lot of money somehow and
bought a company, but then thereare people like me who just
start did a startup from coldscratch. And I would guess that
(05:37):
neurodivergence is is muchhigher in that population than
than just the general populationjust from my own experience. And
maybe it's, you know, maybe thathelps some of us because we
don't know what the challengesare gonna be.
We don't have the maybe the fearthat we should have, at the
outset, things like that. Butwhen we're talking about
neurotypical then, is that justis that just like a baseline
(05:58):
based on the median of thepopulation or something, and and
then it's like a bell curve? Howdoes that work? What does that
look like?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (06:06):
I mean, you nailed it. Right? That's exactly
what it is. And we know thatabout seventy percent of people
are within one standarddeviation of the mean. So that
more or less tracks onto thateighty percent of the population
that's neurotypical.
And those brains are not betteror worse. It's just they largely
operate the way that we'd expectthem to. You know, my favorite
(06:28):
analogy for this is height.Right? So the standard height
for an American man is five footnine.
Right? That's your averagemedian height. So I'm six foot,
so I'm about one standarddeviation above the mean, but
still well within normal bounds.Right? Mhmm.
My college roommate who's sixfoot nine is quantifiably
(06:49):
different than me. I'm like,sup, Adam. He's like, hey.
What's going on down there?Right?
And Adam needs different things.He needs to shop at different
stores. When he was a groomsmanin my wedding, he couldn't go to
Men's Wearhouse. He had to go tothe special store. Right?
Because he's six foot nine andthe world doesn't exist. Doesn't
easily have things that existfor people with those extreme
(07:11):
needs. And and this is where weget into the question of
neurodivergence as equity.Because I don't need men's
warehouse to stack store tostack items for a guy who's six
foot nine or even taller. That'snot a good business model for
them, but the specialtyoperations that exist do need to
exist to meet the needs of thesepeople because their needs are
(07:32):
real.
Mike Coffey (07:33):
And and so a lot of employers, when they see the
equivalent of a six foot nine,you know, potential employee,
but it's just in in how a sir aperson thinks, behaves,
interacts with other people,they see that, I guess, as a
deficit that that will you know?And they start, I guess,
(07:54):
projecting the challenges intothe relationships. What
challenges do you thinkemployers often have that are,
you know, often either, youknow, misguided or incorrect or
easily correctable?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (08:11):
And thank you for asking the question that
way. What we often tell peoplein my line of work is search for
strengths. Don't be a deficitdetective. It is so easy to look
at the neurodivergent person andbe like, this is person that I'm
never gonna be able to bring toa corporate event. They're not
polished enough.
They're not social enough.They're not They're just weird.
(08:34):
They're atypical. And, like, andthen once you have that, when
that foot is in the door,everything else you see is,
like, it's just not worth it.But if you put that person in a
position to play to theirstrengths, their strengths are
are are as high, if not higher,than other people.
So one of the autistic clients Iwork with, he's the chief of
(08:55):
operations for a for theexecutive vice president of this
big company. So he is, you know,he's essentially the chief of
staff, and he is the mostequitable on top of it person.
His stuff is locked down. He'sgot color coded charts. I've
never had a color coded chart inmy life.
And and it's funny. Like, thisis a very people facing job, and
(09:19):
you wouldn't think you'd hire anautistic person to do that, but
he's very good at this is whatSally needs. This is what Bryce
needs. Tom is going out on awork call. He'll be gone for ten
days.
Who's covering Tom's stuff? Dowe have his hotel covered? It's
very stepwise for him. Right? Soif you put this guy in sort of a
(09:39):
traditional, like, client facingrole, like marketing or direct
sales, he'd probably not be verysuccessful at it.
But he's got a talent fororganization. He's got a brain
that thinks really well from a3,000 foot view, and he doesn't
get so caught up in the officepolitics. He he likes to joke
that he's immune to it becausehe doesn't know what's
happening. Like, when people arewhispering at the water cooler,
(10:00):
he's like he's like, I'm just,like, you know, listening to
songs in my head. I'm like, youknow what, dude?
It works for you. Like, leaninto it. So it's a question of
knowing that strengths exist andthinking about how we can adjust
things internally and externallyto play those people's
strengths. Once we do that, Imean, you've fountain, you know,
(10:22):
a diamond in the rough, and it'samazing to see what these people
can do.
Mike Coffey (10:26):
So I'm curious because with almost every other
way of slicing the population,whether it's age, race, sex,
national origin, or whatever, wetry actively not to make
assumptions that about theirbehavior or their, you know,
what what they believe oranything like that, at least in
(10:48):
our best days. We try not to.But is there science that really
does show that there's a there'sa high likelihood that
neurodivergent people are reallygoing to excel in some area, you
know, according to how they'rewired that really show, you
know, that you can if you putthem in the right spot, that
(11:09):
they're gonna they're they'relikely to achieve at a higher
rate than the rest of thepopulation. Is that giftedness
that's unique to them? Is thatreally is that anecdotal, or is
there studies to show that?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:21):
There's it's both, but the, I'm gonna focus
on the quantitative researchhere because, right, this where
this is an HR podcast. We likenumbers. We like data.
Mike Coffey (11:29):
Right.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:30):
Right?
Mike Coffey (11:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:31):
What the research shows from the
Neurodiversity EmploymentNetwork is they found that their
neurodivergent people, when theyfound an appropriate job, they
tend to stay longer than theaverage neurotypical employee.
They tend to have betterperformance reviews, and they
tend to make more money for thecompany when that's a money
(11:52):
making role. So sales, somethinglike that. Right? So there are
Mike Coffey (11:55):
I'm sold.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:56):
Yeah. Right?
Mike Coffey (11:56):
I'm Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:57):
You know?
Mike Coffey (11:58):
Yeah. Hey. I own my company. I'm sold. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (12:00):
Count me in. Right? And and to me, it's
that's because, hey, listen. I'ma psychologist. Right?
I'm a believing heart by bynature. I would love to stand on
my soapbox and be like, it's theright thing to do. And it it it
is. It's the unemployment ratesin the autistic population alone
are are staggering. But morethan that, it's just a question
(12:23):
of this is an untapped valueresource.
Right? And a lot of thecompanies I talk to are hiring
neurodivergent people becausethey're asking questions that
they're not that the companiesthemselves aren't asking. Right?
Is this autistic friendly? Doesthis work for an ADHD person?
Right? And, you know, Mike, haveyou ever heard, the story of of
(12:49):
the evolution of the FBI?
Mike Coffey (12:52):
Not in this context no yeah
Dr. Matt Zakreski (12:54):
it's so when they
Mike Coffey (12:56):
I yeah
Dr. Matt Zakreski (12:56):
so when they when they started it they were
hiring pre law majors andlawyers from ivy league schools
So you have a very particularslice of America, like, largely
affluent white men who went toIvy League schools, which meant
they were really, really good atchasing down a certain kind of
crime, Really good at whitecollar crime. They were like,
(13:18):
we've got this. We that guywould do a country call with my
dad. I know he's he's had hisfinger in the cookie jar
forever. But when they startedhaving to get into organized
crime and international crime,these guys couldn't pivot.
They didn't have the flexibilityof Worldview to, like, take in
somebody who's, let's say,importing drugs from Central
(13:40):
America. Right? That was not askill set they had. So the FBI
had to broaden their talentpool, the people they were
recruiting from, to getdifferent skill sets, different
world views. And I like to usethis, this analogy a lot when I
talk to businesses because if weonly ever talk to the same
people, we fall into an echochamber.
(14:03):
Right? We're doing great becausewe all think we're doing great,
so we're gonna keep doing great.But if you're talking to an
autistic person who's like, thisthat makes sense for a lot of
people, but I'll never use itfor this reason. Nine times out
of 10, that reason is a datapoint in marketing that we
didn't have, that now we canfigure out what we do with. And
(14:24):
that's an amazing that's a wayfor your business to get a leg
up.
Mike Coffey (14:28):
And I've I've got a a good friend who's probably one
of the smartest guys I know andis definitely on the autism
spectrum. Three master'sdegrees, Albert dissertation on
his PhD, and he's a a valet,overnight at a nice fancy hotel
(14:50):
here because it allows him toread all night and and and
pursue what he I mean, he's gotand he's perfectly content with
that. And I'm glad because Ilearned so much every time we
have a meal together, fromwhatever he's reading. But his
expectations, you know, are, youknow, are different than what I
think most people our age arefor what what he wants out of
(15:11):
his career in his life. And so Ithink that's you know that's
probably one of the challengesthat employers have is not only
how do I plug this person into arole that's appropriate to them,
how do I incentivize them?
What what would you what wouldyou tell an employer about how
to incentivize someone who maybehas a value system that's so
(15:34):
foreign to your experience that,that you can't, you know, you
you know, you just don'tunderstand it?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (15:40):
So I'll tell a story from when I was in grad
school. So I met my wife on thefirst day of grad school. I'm
very extroverted in case that'snot abundantly clear, and my
wife is very introverted. And wewere doing some research for one
of our professors, and he'slike, you guys crushed it. You
coded all this data.
I'm so proud of you. He's like,I wanna take you guys out to
(16:02):
dinner. And I'm like, yay. Andmy wife's like, for social
contact with someone I don'tknow. So he looks at her.
He goes, or can I just let yougo home early today? And I I
swear to god, my wife is gonnaburst into tears. Right? Like,
yes. That's everything I've everwanted.
I've had enough people fortoday. So so he took me out to
(16:25):
dinner. We had a great time. Mywife went home and watched
reruns of Glee. She had a greattime.
So when we think about ourtraditional carrots in the
business parking place, likehappy hours, pizza parties,
overnight work trips, For somepeople, not just neurodivergent
people, but, you know, that'sour topic for today. For a lot
(16:47):
of neurodivergent people, thosethings are not motivators. In
fact, they're actuallypunishers. Right? I don't want
to have to go to the happy hour.
I would rather just go homeearly or not have to go to the
holiday party or whatever thething might be and and that to
me yeah one of my guys he wonthe like, a chairman's award for
(17:12):
service in his IT thing. He'slike, you know what I want as my
prize? To not have to go to theceremony. So they sent him a
gift certificate for the amountthat the dinner would have been
worth. He went out to dinner byhimself.
He was happy as a clam. Like,Like, he sat in the corner
booth. He brought a book, and heordered himself a nice steak.
And, honestly, who does it hurt?I don't think it hurts anybody.
(17:32):
It's getting our own egos out ofthe way as leadership to say,
you know what? If this works forMike, then let's customize what
we're doing in a way that itbenefits Mike, that doesn't that
isn't about what I thought was agood idea.
Mike Coffey (17:47):
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(19:13):
If you're an HRCI or SHRMcertified professional, this
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(19:34):
keyword playbook that's p l a yb o o k. And now back to my
conversation with Matt Zukreski.In the book, you talk about
maybe the expectation or the atleast the practice, that some
neurodiverse people just need tomask their behavior. Talk about
(19:57):
what masking is and how itpresents in the workplace and
how employers can avoid settingup that scenario.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (20:06):
So masking is what people do when they don't
feel safe or comfortable to bethemselves. So, you know, if you
think back Mike, I don't know ifyou're partnered. Right? But if
you Yes.
Mike Coffey (20:18):
Yeah. When To a very patient woman for twenty
eight years now. Yeah. Who isalso could have been your your
wife's sister because I'm theextrovert and she's the
introvert. She will go to oneevent with me a week if I'm
lucky, and then she just sendsme on my way all the other
nights.
Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (20:32):
I was gonna say, I was like, I feel like our
wives would probably have a lotto talk about. But think back to
the first time you met yourwife's family. Right? Were you
the free and loose, you know,like, cracking jokes version of
Mike? Or were you buttoned up?
Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. Thank youvery much, sir. Yes, ma'am. Yes.
I'd love a cup of coffee. Thankyou very much. Like, that is a
(20:53):
version of masking. Right? Youare putting on a very particular
face or or set of behaviors tonavigate a particularly
stressful moment.
But neurodivergent people haveto do that almost all the time
because the world isn't builtfor us. So if you're, you know,
if you're dyslexic and you goout to a business dinner, you
(21:14):
can't you may not be able toread the menu. Right? One of my
dyslexic adults that I workwith, he always orders the
special because it's said to himverbally. Right?
They're like, ah, yes, ma'am.
Mike Coffey (21:26):
That's what I do. That's what I do in foreign
countries too. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
I've never heard of any of thisfood, so I'll just dress
whatever they got on special.Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (21:33):
You look like you know what you're doing. I'm
gonna roll the dice on that. I Idid that once in Thailand and
got the worst food poisoningI've ever had in my life. But Oh
my. Yeah.
Usually, it works out for me.But that's a little
accommodation he gives himself,you know, and he's like, I also
often pick up the check becauseit's hard for me to read the
tiny little print on the longreceipt. What did I order? Who
(21:56):
who got what? You know what?
It's fine. I'll just put mycredit card down. And he's a
very genial guy. People likehim. It fits his business model.
But it's like, you think aboutall the little paper cuts that
is. Right? All those littleindignities. It it it adds up
over time. So we want to createworlds where people understand
(22:17):
that there are times where weneed to put on the best, most
professional versions ofourselves, but also create
environments that that peoplecan be comfortable and aligned
with their best versions ofthemselves.
Like, if one of yourneurodivergent people has
sensory needs, and we can dealwith that by putting a door on
(22:38):
their office, whereas everybodyelse has an open floor plan. I'm
telling you, what it costs you,what, $300 to put a door in? It
it'll pay for itself a thousandtimes over.
Mike Coffey (22:48):
No. I'll try to do it myself first. So it'll cost
me 700 because somebody's gottacome back and fix all my my
screw ups too. But yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (22:56):
How did you set it on fire? There was no
fire involved. Yeah. See, Idon't touch that stuff. I I got
a guy for it.
I'm gonna call my guy. Right?But that's the that's the thing.
Like, those little things go along way to to not only
(23:17):
incentivizing behavior, butcreating an environment where it
can thrive. Because, you know,as we say often in my line of
work, if the flower's notgrowing, you don't blame the
flower.
You change the greenhouse. It isso much easier to change the
greenhouse than buy a newflower.
Mike Coffey (23:34):
And so that masking is I mean, you're the
psychologist here, but thatmasking is probably the same or
very similar to what we talkabout when we're talking about
cultural differences and codeswitching. It's the same kind of
thing. And we've had aconversation here in the past
about code switching and and theneed the the need that people
from, you know, different, youknow, backgrounds than the
(23:55):
majority background, feel thatthey they have, you know, the
need to to speak verydifferently and and present
themselves differently. Butthere are times where we need
that the social expectations orthe social norms inside of an
organization are there for areason. How do we help someone
(24:15):
who's neurodiverse adapt,successfully where those social
norms need to happen in acertain way within some range of
of error, I guess.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (24:27):
Absolutely. Well and it's funny you
mentioned code switching. That'sactually like, that's the the
conclusion of my book is thatit's not about cracking the
code. It's being able to switchinto it and switch out of it.
Right?
If the CEO was coming to mytable at work, I yes. You better
believe I'm gonna I'm gonna bethe most neurotypical person
you've ever met. Hello, misterCEO. How are you today, sir? How
(24:50):
about local sports team andweather?
Right? And then I'll just belike, look at me. I'm doing a
good neurotypical. And then Iwill probably take myself out to
lunch and, like, play Pokemon Goas I eat my burger, and I'm
fine. Right?
It's it's really it's knowingthe wheres and whens. The the
biggest thing for the reality ofsometimes we do need to mask,
(25:15):
right, is is making that stuffovert, intentional, and visible.
So the biggest problem we runinto in corporate culture for
neurodivergent folks are theunwritten rules. Right? Mhmm.
You know, and I I I mean, Ithink
Mike Coffey (25:33):
What we call common sense sometimes. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (25:35):
And Okay. And it's common sense because eighty
percent of the population isneurotypical, and they largely
speak the same language. Theirbrains work very similarly. So I
can say to a neurotypicalperson, the boss is coming
today. They're like, I'm gonnaput on my best suit.
I say that to a neurodivergentperson whose brain doesn't work
that way, and they're like, oh,cool. We must be doing well as a
(25:57):
company. Like, that's areasonable conclusion to draw.
You're not making the same leap,though. So everybody else looks
like fresh out of, like, youknow, GQ magazine, and I'm
wearing my favorite work codingt shirt, and I'm crunching I'm
destroying code today.
I'm killing it. But the CEOcomes in, like, who's this
unkempt dude? And I'm like, I'myour best coder, sir. Mhmm.
(26:20):
Alright.
You know? So so when there arecultural norms that need to be
accounted for, we make theunspoken things spoken. Right?
We say, hey. Here's exactly whatI expect from you in this
situation.
Here's what to do, and here'swhat not to do. And taking the
extra five minutes to name thosethings for your neurodivergent
(26:43):
employees, that I mean, they'llfollow the rules forever. They
just need to know what they are.
Mike Coffey (26:48):
And companies wanna bring in diverse people for a
variety of reasons. And one ofthe things that we've really
found in the last five years istokenism doesn't work. It's not
a good business plan. It's notfair to the employees you're
bringing in. And it certainlydon't wanna set the culture
where people assume thatsomebody who has whatever traits
(27:11):
are are there because of thosetraits rather than their ability
to to perform the role.
How can an avoid an employeravoid avoid tokenism when
they're bringing actively tryingto bring in, attract, and and
retain neurodivergent employees?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (27:27):
So this is when we get into the idea of
what we call universal design.So the best practices that
accommodate the most people arejust the best practices. Right?
So if your company is up fourstairs from the parking lot, let
us bulldoze those stairs and putin a ramp because everybody can
(27:51):
get up a ramp. Right?
Not just the person, you know,not just the able-bodied people.
Right? Sure. And that could besomeone who sprains their ankle
playing basketball or somebodywho, you know, took a spill on
the ice or a million otherthings. Right?
But ramps, everybody can get ina ramp. You know? And if you
have a company where you canwork from home as long as you
(28:13):
let your team leader know, thenwe're not highlighting the
neurodivergent folks who can'tbe around other people all the
time. It's, you know, Stellafrom HR or Mike from, you know,
from the c suite or Tony, yourautistic IT specialist, they all
can work from home when theyneed to because reasons because
(28:34):
life happens. Right?
It isn't just a specific thingfor specific people. Because one
of the mental health challengeswe see a lot in retaining
neurodivergent people is theconcept of imposter syndrome.
Right? The idea is that if youhave a thing that makes you
different and you are made awareof that difference in overt ways
(28:55):
and in subtle ways, it fuelsthat idea of imposter syndrome.
Right?
If everybody else in the companywent to state you and you went
to tech, that's enough for yourbrain to go, maybe they only
hired me because they neededsomebody from tech. And and
that's not necessarily true. Butonce that anxiety worms its way
in there, it can become veryinsidious, and it can, like,
(29:18):
honestly, sabotage the employeefrom the inside out. So we we
make universal universal designas many things as possible. We
also create identity groups orleadership groups within your
company.
Most companies use the ERGmodel. Right? Employee resource
groups. Right? And I'veconsulted to probably somewhere
(29:40):
around a dozen of those in somepretty big companies just to
say, like, here's what we'redoing.
Here's how to avoid thattokenism. Let's make actionable
advice. Let's have things thatpeople need for a lot of ERGs
for neurodivergent people. Theymay not actually need to meet
that often. They just need mightneed to have a database where
(30:00):
you can go and find the thingyou need.
Right? Here's how to talk to HRabout getting your leave
approved rather than, like, doesanybody have any questions in
our meeting where there's pizza?Because that doesn't necessarily
work. Right? So we're we'rehaving internal staffing that
becomes that sort of beacon thatallows neurodivergent people to
(30:22):
go to their people.
You're using universal design tolower the barrier to entry for
every single person in yourcompany. And then the third
thing is be overt in your inyour messaging. Right? Be overt
in the way that we are heretrying to make things accessible
for every person who works here.And because with other kinds of
(30:46):
diversity, someone in awheelchair, someone of a
different nationality, someoneof a different skin color, those
things are are not easilyhidden.
Right? If you have a an employeewho wears a hijab, like, they're
not they're not gonna hide that.Right?
Mike Coffey (31:01):
Right.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (31:01):
But neurodivergence can be an
invisible disability. Right? Imean, you mentioned before you
have ADHD. I have ADHD as well.I don't know if anybody would
know by talking to us.
Right? But if they left us alonein a waiting room and then they
come back in and we were doing,like, you know, battle bots with
pencils and markers, They'relike, oh, then now it's
(31:24):
abundantly clear.
Mike Coffey (31:25):
That makes sense. Right. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (31:26):
You know? So it becomes this thing where just
make your learning process as acompany transparent. Say like,
hey, we don't have all theanswers, but we're taking these
steps for these reasons, and wewant to know more. And and I
think when that kind of I'm fondof saying that neurodivergent
(31:48):
people are allergic to bullshit.Right?
Like, you Mhmm. Like, you can'tI can see that. Right? You can't
lie to us. Like, we'll runthrough a brick wall for you if
we know why we're runningthrough the brick wall.
So it's like, listen. I'm notgonna sit here and say I have
all the answers. Right? Thatintellectual humility means, oh,
man. This guy's not bullshittingme.
(32:08):
That's awesome. I want onboardwith this. I want to build this
co created benefit from theirgrowth curve because then
everybody in that company knowsthat it's a living document, not
like the 10 commandments handeddown from God. Right? And when
people know that they're a partof something that's growing and
(32:29):
evolving, they invest more intoit, and they get more from it.
So it's sort of a win win.
Mike Coffey (32:36):
Interesting. To wrap up, so what do I do with
all my neurotypical people? Imean, how do I get them ready to
not make this a thing that getsin the way of how you know,
because we've all worked withneurotypical people who we, you
know, who have very strongbeliefs about how the way things
(32:57):
ought to be. And, you know, andwhen somebody acts outside you
know, colors outside of thoselines, it it it makes you know,
it it gives them some grief. Andso what how do you prepare your
neurotypical, employees forespecially those more rigid or,
you know, who may, who knows,have their own, you know,
(33:19):
neurodiversity of their youknow, maybe a neurodiverse
population all of it tothemselves.
But how do you prepare them toto work in this different
environment where they maybehave people who aren't thinking,
behaving the way they expect?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (33:32):
So I I often call this the supervillain test.
Yeah. So if I'm Chuck in salesand I'm neurotypical and I've
done things this way my wholelife, I was a business major. I
get how this works. And then wehire Elizabeth.
And Elizabeth is ADHD anddyslexic, and she goes about it
(33:52):
in an entirely different way.She takes her clients out to
coffee. She's always, like,sending, like, little, like,
little notes. And you're like,that's not about the business
relationship where it's allabout the bottom line. And so if
they come and talk to themanager, I would say, so we know
that this person is atypical.
They're doing things a differentway. Now do you think I'm good
(34:15):
at my job? And the person'slike, well, of course. We've
been working together for years.It's like, so here's the deal.
Either I have a good reason forhiring this person because of
their atypicality, so we need totrust me, Or I'm a supervillain,
and I'm trying to screw withyour career. Right? And it's
what it does is it anticipatesthe emotional argument from your
(34:38):
from the employee, and it sortof short circuits it. It's like,
I don't like it. I don't get it,but I also know you're not a
super villain.
Right? So it it builds a niceframework, a nice barrier around
that conversation.
Mike Coffey (34:51):
That's great.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (34:51):
You know? And if I can throw one more piece of
advice out there, it's goodpractice for all of us to be
very intentional in ourlanguage. So we take a lot of
shortcuts in when we speak.Like, I might say, oh, hey,
Mike. Go get the thing.
And I know what the thing is.Mike, do you know what the thing
is?
Mike Coffey (35:10):
I have no idea.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (35:11):
No idea. So I'm gonna get mad at you for not
getting the thing that you don'tknow what the thing was in the
first place. Right? And I thisis I need this in my parenting
workshops all the time, and Icannot tell you how many HR
professionals and businessmanagers come up to me. Like, I
need to do this at the office.
I'm like, yes. You do. Right?Say what you mean and mean what
(35:31):
you say. Right?
So if if I'm using a turn ofphrase that's like actually,
this is a very adorable example.One of my one of my, gifted
employees, he works for a prettypretty big real estate firm. You
know, he was talking to somebodywho'd just been transferred into
the office, and he's like, oh,hey. How are you doing? He's
(35:53):
working on small talk.
We're very proud of him. And theguy's like, oh, you know, man.
One more one day closer todeath. Right? One of those
things that you say, and it'slike, you know, it's a little
bit gallows humor.
It's a little bit life is hard.I get it. I'm here for it. My
client who's very sincere andtakes most things at very face
value, he called HR. He's like,I'm worried about the new hire.
(36:15):
He said he's one day closer todeath. Can you make him a psych
referral? And it's, like, it'sso sweet. Right? And so this
this guy was like, well, Ididn't know.
I mean, I'm not suicidal.Everything's fine. You know? But
they invited me to be a part ofthis debrief, and I'm like, so
here's how this came across tothis guy. So in the future, you
(36:36):
might say something like, I'mhaving a tough day or, like, you
know, things are hard, but I'mI'm doing okay.
Like, you don't owe him that,but it makes everybody's life
easier if you can just be veryintentional with what you say.
And to this guy's great credit,he he took it with grace. He
took it with humility. He foundthe humor in it. He's like, man,
I gotta be careful in what Isay.
(36:57):
I was like, it that's also agood lesson here. Yeah. And that
just like, all those littleidioms, all those little
shortcuts we use with ourlanguage, it's built by the
monoculture. The monoculture isa neurotypical culture. So I
might say to one of my moreconcrete employees, like, I need
to talk to you later.
Everything's fine. I'm talkingto you about your sales goals.
(37:19):
I'm gonna use that extralanguage, what we call meta
communication, to build thestructure around that in a way
that sort of limits theemotional flailing that may
occur.
Mike Coffey (37:32):
Occur. Doctor Matthew Zakreski is author of
The Neurodiversity Playbook, HowNeurodivergent People Can Crack
the Code of Living in aNeurotypical World. Thanks for
joining us today, Doctor. Matt.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (37:44):
It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Mike Coffey (37:46):
You'll find links to Matt's book and other
resources in the show notes, andthank you for listening. Also,
if you enjoyed this episode,please leave us a review
wherever you get your podcast.It helps other people find us as
does sharing the episode on yourfavorite social media platform.
Rob Upchurch is our technicalproducer and you can reach him
(38:06):
at robmakespods dot com. Andthank you to Imperative's
marketing coordinator, Mary AnneHernandez, who keeps the trains
running on time.
And I'm the very ADHD MikeCoffey. As always, don't
hesitate to reach out if I canbe of service to you personally
or professionally. I'll see younext week and until then, be
well, do good, and keep yourchin up.
It's a question of knowing that
strengths exist and thinkingabout how we can adjust things
internally and externally toplay those people's strengths.
Once we do that, I mean, you'vefountain, you know, a diamond in
the rough, and it's amazing tosee what these people can do.
Mike Coffey (00:22):
Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of
Imperative, bulletproofbackground checks with fast and
friendly service. And this isthe podcast where I talk to
business leaders about bringingpeople together to create value
for shareholders, customers, andthe community. Please follow,
rate, and review Good Morning HRwherever ever you get your
podcast and on your favoritesocial media platform. You can
(00:45):
also find us atgoodmorninghr.com.
Back in January, I spoke toNikki Drader Meza and doctor
Jenny Lopez Kidwell about theirresearch into neurodiversity
hiring and socialization. Andthen I spoke to Ron Fish about
the challenges neurodiverseindividuals have in applying,
interviewing, and acculturatingin the workplace. We return to
(01:07):
that topic today with doctorMatthew Zakreski, author of The
Neurodiversity Playbook, HowNeurodivergent People Can Crack
the Code of Living in aNeurotypical World, which was
released last December. DoctorMatt is a clinical psychologist
who specializes in working withneurodivergent people. He is
also a conference speaker andadvocate for supporting
(01:30):
neurodivergent people in allwalks of life, from school to
college to the workplace.
And he is the cofounder of theNeurodiversity Collective, an
online consulting and therapyprivate practice. Welcome to
Good Morning HR, Matt.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (01:45):
Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me.
Mike Coffey (01:47):
So you this has been a hot topic for us for
about a year now. I think you'reactually the this is the fourth
episode we've done in in about ayear's time on, working with
neurodivergent and autistic,employees. And while we continue
to have a talent crunch, I thinkmore and more employ employers
are are still considering how dowe do this. But what do you
(02:08):
think the most commonmisconceptions employers have
when when they're thinking aboutbringing neurodiverse employees
into the workplace?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (02:17):
Well and I know you've done a bunch of
topics on this because I'velistened to all of them. So I
get to be a fan and a guest.It's the best of both worlds. So
there's this idea out there thatneurodivergent people are this
small niche thing. It's adiversity hire.
We're checking a box. Do youknow one out of five people are
(02:38):
neurodivergent? So this isn'tjust, oh, gosh. It's the one guy
in the mail room. This is if youhave five people in your c
suite, odds are one of them isneurodivergent.
Right? Your marketingdepartment, your sales team,
your shipping department. Imean, this is neurodivergence is
everybody's world. So that's whypeople like me try and get out
(03:02):
there to to talk about this.Right?
Because the more we talk aboutit, the more we realize that
we're we are all already doingthis work, but now we can do it
with more intention and supportmore people because we know what
we're doing.
Mike Coffey (03:15):
So when people are talking about neurodiverse, the
first thing that comes to mindfor most folks are autistic
individuals, people working inin with that set of challenges.
But, but you're you're includingin that topic people like me
with ADHD. And what else? Whatother things are do we encounter
in the workplace?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (03:34):
So ADHD, autism, dyslexia is a big one.
One out of 10 people aredyslexic, so that's a huge
number. OCD is anotherneurodivergence that we see a
lot of, and my subspecialty isgiftedness. So gifted is about
one in fifty, and giftedness isa neurodivergence that comes
(03:55):
with significant braindifferences, strengths, and
weaknesses. So if you havesomeone who is in your office
that it's funny.
When I consult the schools, Ialways ask teachers, like, do
you have a kid who really pissesyou off? Like, kid is like, if
they could just get their shittogether, and then the sometimes
the teachers laugh like, yes.It's Johnny or Sally. I'm like
Mike Coffey (04:15):
And that was me, but not necessarily because I
was gifted. I don't know thatpart. But, yeah, definitely,
that was me. Yeah. Talks toooften.
You know, when the when you hadpaper report cards and they
would check check mark thethings you were not doing well,
mine was just a straight line ofcheck marks every six weeks
about talks at appropriatetimes.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (04:33):
He will not shut up. Oh my gosh. Well and
that's the thing because whenyou have a person whose brain
doesn't fit the environment weput them in, you feel more
friction. Right? Neurotypicalbrains are more able to sort of
go along to get along.
Neurodivergent brains are like,listen. I will fly you to the
moon if it's everything I need.But if this thing's in my way,
(04:55):
I'm just only gonna be stuck onthis thing that's in my way. So
when I talk to HR professionals,I'm like, is there somebody in
sales that you're like, if theywould only get their stuff
together? And they always lookat each other like, oh, it's x y
z person.
I'm like, here's how we tweak itto get the best version of that
person because that person islikely a neuro neurodivergent
person.
Mike Coffey (05:16):
And I'm in the entrepreneurs organization, so
we've got 30,000 plusentrepreneurs, successful
entrepreneurs across the world.And the there's two kinds. You
know, there's the folks who madea lot of money somehow and
bought a company, but then thereare people like me who just
start did a startup from coldscratch. And I would guess that
(05:37):
neurodivergence is is muchhigher in that population than
than just the general populationjust from my own experience. And
maybe it's, you know, maybe thathelps some of us because we
don't know what the challengesare gonna be.
We don't have the maybe the fearthat we should have, at the
outset, things like that. Butwhen we're talking about
neurotypical then, is that justis that just like a baseline
(05:58):
based on the median of thepopulation or something, and and
then it's like a bell curve? Howdoes that work? What does that
look like?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (06:06):
I mean, you nailed it. Right? That's exactly
what it is. And we know thatabout seventy percent of people
are within one standarddeviation of the mean. So that
more or less tracks onto thateighty percent of the population
that's neurotypical.
And those brains are not betteror worse. It's just they largely
operate the way that we'd expectthem to. You know, my favorite
(06:28):
analogy for this is height.Right? So the standard height
for an American man is five footnine.
Right? That's your averagemedian height. So I'm six foot,
so I'm about one standarddeviation above the mean, but
still well within normal bounds.Right? Mhmm.
My college roommate who's sixfoot nine is quantifiably
(06:49):
different than me. I'm like,sup, Adam. He's like, hey.
What's going on down there?Right?
And Adam needs different things.He needs to shop at different
stores. When he was a groomsmanin my wedding, he couldn't go to
Men's Wearhouse. He had to go tothe special store. Right?
Because he's six foot nine andthe world doesn't exist. Doesn't
easily have things that existfor people with those extreme
(07:11):
needs. And and this is where weget into the question of
neurodivergence as equity.Because I don't need men's
warehouse to stack store tostack items for a guy who's six
foot nine or even taller. That'snot a good business model for
them, but the specialtyoperations that exist do need to
exist to meet the needs of thesepeople because their needs are
(07:32):
real.
Mike Coffey (07:33):
And and so a lot of employers, when they see the
equivalent of a six foot nine,you know, potential employee,
but it's just in in how a sir aperson thinks, behaves,
interacts with other people,they see that, I guess, as a
deficit that that will you know?And they start, I guess,
(07:54):
projecting the challenges intothe relationships. What
challenges do you thinkemployers often have that are,
you know, often either, youknow, misguided or incorrect or
easily correctable?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (08:11):
And thank you for asking the question that
way. What we often tell peoplein my line of work is search for
strengths. Don't be a deficitdetective. It is so easy to look
at the neurodivergent person andbe like, this is person that I'm
never gonna be able to bring toa corporate event. They're not
polished enough.
They're not social enough.They're not They're just weird.
(08:34):
They're atypical. And, like, andthen once you have that, when
that foot is in the door,everything else you see is,
like, it's just not worth it.But if you put that person in a
position to play to theirstrengths, their strengths are
are are as high, if not higher,than other people.
So one of the autistic clients Iwork with, he's the chief of
(08:55):
operations for a for theexecutive vice president of this
big company. So he is, you know,he's essentially the chief of
staff, and he is the mostequitable on top of it person.
His stuff is locked down. He'sgot color coded charts. I've
never had a color coded chart inmy life.
And and it's funny. Like, thisis a very people facing job, and
(09:19):
you wouldn't think you'd hire anautistic person to do that, but
he's very good at this is whatSally needs. This is what Bryce
needs. Tom is going out on awork call. He'll be gone for ten
days.
Who's covering Tom's stuff? Dowe have his hotel covered? It's
very stepwise for him. Right? Soif you put this guy in sort of a
(09:39):
traditional, like, client facingrole, like marketing or direct
sales, he'd probably not be verysuccessful at it.
But he's got a talent fororganization. He's got a brain
that thinks really well from a3,000 foot view, and he doesn't
get so caught up in the officepolitics. He he likes to joke
that he's immune to it becausehe doesn't know what's
happening. Like, when people arewhispering at the water cooler,
(10:00):
he's like he's like, I'm just,like, you know, listening to
songs in my head. I'm like, youknow what, dude?
It works for you. Like, leaninto it. So it's a question of
knowing that strengths exist andthinking about how we can adjust
things internally and externallyto play those people's
strengths. Once we do that, Imean, you've fountain, you know,
(10:22):
a diamond in the rough, and it'samazing to see what these people
can do.
Mike Coffey (10:26):
So I'm curious because with almost every other
way of slicing the population,whether it's age, race, sex,
national origin, or whatever, wetry actively not to make
assumptions that about theirbehavior or their, you know,
what what they believe oranything like that, at least in
(10:48):
our best days. We try not to.But is there science that really
does show that there's a there'sa high likelihood that
neurodivergent people are reallygoing to excel in some area, you
know, according to how they'rewired that really show, you
know, that you can if you putthem in the right spot, that
(11:09):
they're gonna they're they'relikely to achieve at a higher
rate than the rest of thepopulation. Is that giftedness
that's unique to them? Is thatreally is that anecdotal, or is
there studies to show that?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:21):
There's it's both, but the, I'm gonna focus
on the quantitative researchhere because, right, this where
this is an HR podcast. We likenumbers. We like data.
Mike Coffey (11:29):
Right.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:30):
Right?
Mike Coffey (11:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:31):
What the research shows from the
Neurodiversity EmploymentNetwork is they found that their
neurodivergent people, when theyfound an appropriate job, they
tend to stay longer than theaverage neurotypical employee.
They tend to have betterperformance reviews, and they
tend to make more money for thecompany when that's a money
(11:52):
making role. So sales, somethinglike that. Right? So there are
Mike Coffey (11:55):
I'm sold.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:56):
Yeah. Right?
Mike Coffey (11:56):
I'm Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (11:57):
You know?
Mike Coffey (11:58):
Yeah. Hey. I own my company. I'm sold. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (12:00):
Count me in. Right? And and to me, it's
that's because, hey, listen. I'ma psychologist. Right?
I'm a believing heart by bynature. I would love to stand on
my soapbox and be like, it's theright thing to do. And it it it
is. It's the unemployment ratesin the autistic population alone
are are staggering. But morethan that, it's just a question
(12:23):
of this is an untapped valueresource.
Right? And a lot of thecompanies I talk to are hiring
neurodivergent people becausethey're asking questions that
they're not that the companiesthemselves aren't asking. Right?
Is this autistic friendly? Doesthis work for an ADHD person?
Right? And, you know, Mike, haveyou ever heard, the story of of
(12:49):
the evolution of the FBI?
Mike Coffey (12:52):
Not in this context no yeah
Dr. Matt Zakreski (12:54):
it's so when they
Mike Coffey (12:56):
I yeah
Dr. Matt Zakreski (12:56):
so when they when they started it they were
hiring pre law majors andlawyers from ivy league schools
So you have a very particularslice of America, like, largely
affluent white men who went toIvy League schools, which meant
they were really, really good atchasing down a certain kind of
crime, Really good at whitecollar crime. They were like,
(13:18):
we've got this. We that guywould do a country call with my
dad. I know he's he's had hisfinger in the cookie jar
forever. But when they startedhaving to get into organized
crime and international crime,these guys couldn't pivot.
They didn't have the flexibilityof Worldview to, like, take in
somebody who's, let's say,importing drugs from Central
(13:40):
America. Right? That was not askill set they had. So the FBI
had to broaden their talentpool, the people they were
recruiting from, to getdifferent skill sets, different
world views. And I like to usethis, this analogy a lot when I
talk to businesses because if weonly ever talk to the same
people, we fall into an echochamber.
(14:03):
Right? We're doing great becausewe all think we're doing great,
so we're gonna keep doing great.But if you're talking to an
autistic person who's like, thisthat makes sense for a lot of
people, but I'll never use itfor this reason. Nine times out
of 10, that reason is a datapoint in marketing that we
didn't have, that now we canfigure out what we do with. And
(14:24):
that's an amazing that's a wayfor your business to get a leg
up.
Mike Coffey (14:28):
And I've I've got a a good friend who's probably one
of the smartest guys I know andis definitely on the autism
spectrum. Three master'sdegrees, Albert dissertation on
his PhD, and he's a a valet,overnight at a nice fancy hotel
(14:50):
here because it allows him toread all night and and and
pursue what he I mean, he's gotand he's perfectly content with
that. And I'm glad because Ilearned so much every time we
have a meal together, fromwhatever he's reading. But his
expectations, you know, are, youknow, are different than what I
think most people our age arefor what what he wants out of
(15:11):
his career in his life. And so Ithink that's you know that's
probably one of the challengesthat employers have is not only
how do I plug this person into arole that's appropriate to them,
how do I incentivize them?
What what would you what wouldyou tell an employer about how
to incentivize someone who maybehas a value system that's so
(15:34):
foreign to your experience that,that you can't, you know, you
you know, you just don'tunderstand it?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (15:40):
So I'll tell a story from when I was in grad
school. So I met my wife on thefirst day of grad school. I'm
very extroverted in case that'snot abundantly clear, and my
wife is very introverted. And wewere doing some research for one
of our professors, and he'slike, you guys crushed it. You
coded all this data.
I'm so proud of you. He's like,I wanna take you guys out to
(16:02):
dinner. And I'm like, yay. Andmy wife's like, for social
contact with someone I don'tknow. So he looks at her.
He goes, or can I just let yougo home early today? And I I
swear to god, my wife is gonnaburst into tears. Right? Like,
yes. That's everything I've everwanted.
I've had enough people fortoday. So so he took me out to
(16:25):
dinner. We had a great time. Mywife went home and watched
reruns of Glee. She had a greattime.
So when we think about ourtraditional carrots in the
business parking place, likehappy hours, pizza parties,
overnight work trips, For somepeople, not just neurodivergent
people, but, you know, that'sour topic for today. For a lot
(16:47):
of neurodivergent people, thosethings are not motivators. In
fact, they're actuallypunishers. Right? I don't want
to have to go to the happy hour.
I would rather just go homeearly or not have to go to the
holiday party or whatever thething might be and and that to
me yeah one of my guys he wonthe like, a chairman's award for
(17:12):
service in his IT thing. He'slike, you know what I want as my
prize? To not have to go to theceremony. So they sent him a
gift certificate for the amountthat the dinner would have been
worth. He went out to dinner byhimself.
He was happy as a clam. Like,Like, he sat in the corner
booth. He brought a book, and heordered himself a nice steak.
And, honestly, who does it hurt?I don't think it hurts anybody.
(17:32):
It's getting our own egos out ofthe way as leadership to say,
you know what? If this works forMike, then let's customize what
we're doing in a way that itbenefits Mike, that doesn't that
isn't about what I thought was agood idea.
Mike Coffey (17:47):
And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is
brought to you by Imperative,bulletproof background checks
with fast and friendly service.On Thursday, March 20, I'm
hosting a webinar entitled altcontrol the c protecting
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recognize the advantages ofremote work in attracting and
(18:10):
retaining employees, most areunaware of, much less protected
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remote environment.
Foreign actors like North Korea,fraudulent employment verifiers,
and dishonest over employedworkers are but a few of the
(18:30):
sources of liability, databreaches, and financial loss
employers have suffered. Usingtraditional deception methods
and modern artificialintelligence tools like
deepfakes, bad actors aretargeting unsuspecting
employers. In this one hour webinar, I'll discuss some of the
ways that dishonest actors haveharmed employers and practical
(18:52):
steps employers can take toprotect themselves. And just
like this podcast, the webinaris free and pre approved for
recertification credit. You canregister or watch the recording
later by clicking on theeducation tab at
imperativeinfo.com, where youcan also find all my previously
recorded webinars.
(19:13):
If you're an HRCI or SHRMcertified professional, this
episode of Good Morning HR hasbeen pre approved for one half
hour of recertification credit.To obtain the recertification
information visitgoodmorninghr.com and click on
research credits, Then selectepisode 191 and enter the
(19:34):
keyword playbook that's p l a yb o o k. And now back to my
conversation with Matt Zukreski.In the book, you talk about
maybe the expectation or the atleast the practice, that some
neurodiverse people just need tomask their behavior. Talk about
(19:57):
what masking is and how itpresents in the workplace and
how employers can avoid settingup that scenario.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (20:06):
So masking is what people do when they don't
feel safe or comfortable to bethemselves. So, you know, if you
think back Mike, I don't know ifyou're partnered. Right? But if
you Yes.
Mike Coffey (20:18):
Yeah. When To a very patient woman for twenty
eight years now. Yeah. Who isalso could have been your your
wife's sister because I'm theextrovert and she's the
introvert. She will go to oneevent with me a week if I'm
lucky, and then she just sendsme on my way all the other
nights.
Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (20:32):
I was gonna say, I was like, I feel like our
wives would probably have a lotto talk about. But think back to
the first time you met yourwife's family. Right? Were you
the free and loose, you know,like, cracking jokes version of
Mike? Or were you buttoned up?
Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. Thank youvery much, sir. Yes, ma'am. Yes.
I'd love a cup of coffee. Thankyou very much. Like, that is a
(20:53):
version of masking. Right? Youare putting on a very particular
face or or set of behaviors tonavigate a particularly
stressful moment.
But neurodivergent people haveto do that almost all the time
because the world isn't builtfor us. So if you're, you know,
if you're dyslexic and you goout to a business dinner, you
(21:14):
can't you may not be able toread the menu. Right? One of my
dyslexic adults that I workwith, he always orders the
special because it's said to himverbally. Right?
They're like, ah, yes, ma'am.
Mike Coffey (21:26):
That's what I do. That's what I do in foreign
countries too. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
I've never heard of any of thisfood, so I'll just dress
whatever they got on special.Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (21:33):
You look like you know what you're doing. I'm
gonna roll the dice on that. I Idid that once in Thailand and
got the worst food poisoningI've ever had in my life. But Oh
my. Yeah.
Usually, it works out for me.But that's a little
accommodation he gives himself,you know, and he's like, I also
often pick up the check becauseit's hard for me to read the
tiny little print on the longreceipt. What did I order? Who
(21:56):
who got what? You know what?
It's fine. I'll just put mycredit card down. And he's a
very genial guy. People likehim. It fits his business model.
But it's like, you think aboutall the little paper cuts that
is. Right? All those littleindignities. It it it adds up
over time. So we want to createworlds where people understand
(22:17):
that there are times where weneed to put on the best, most
professional versions ofourselves, but also create
environments that that peoplecan be comfortable and aligned
with their best versions ofthemselves.
Like, if one of yourneurodivergent people has
sensory needs, and we can dealwith that by putting a door on
(22:38):
their office, whereas everybodyelse has an open floor plan. I'm
telling you, what it costs you,what, $300 to put a door in? It
it'll pay for itself a thousandtimes over.
Mike Coffey (22:48):
No. I'll try to do it myself first. So it'll cost
me 700 because somebody's gottacome back and fix all my my
screw ups too. But yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (22:56):
How did you set it on fire? There was no
fire involved. Yeah. See, Idon't touch that stuff. I I got
a guy for it.
I'm gonna call my guy. Right?But that's the that's the thing.
Like, those little things go along way to to not only
(23:17):
incentivizing behavior, butcreating an environment where it
can thrive. Because, you know,as we say often in my line of
work, if the flower's notgrowing, you don't blame the
flower.
You change the greenhouse. It isso much easier to change the
greenhouse than buy a newflower.
Mike Coffey (23:34):
And so that masking is I mean, you're the
psychologist here, but thatmasking is probably the same or
very similar to what we talkabout when we're talking about
cultural differences and codeswitching. It's the same kind of
thing. And we've had aconversation here in the past
about code switching and and theneed the the need that people
from, you know, different, youknow, backgrounds than the
(23:55):
majority background, feel thatthey they have, you know, the
need to to speak verydifferently and and present
themselves differently. Butthere are times where we need
that the social expectations orthe social norms inside of an
organization are there for areason. How do we help someone
(24:15):
who's neurodiverse adapt,successfully where those social
norms need to happen in acertain way within some range of
of error, I guess.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (24:27):
Absolutely. Well and it's funny you
mentioned code switching. That'sactually like, that's the the
conclusion of my book is thatit's not about cracking the
code. It's being able to switchinto it and switch out of it.
Right?
If the CEO was coming to mytable at work, I yes. You better
believe I'm gonna I'm gonna bethe most neurotypical person
you've ever met. Hello, misterCEO. How are you today, sir? How
(24:50):
about local sports team andweather?
Right? And then I'll just belike, look at me. I'm doing a
good neurotypical. And then Iwill probably take myself out to
lunch and, like, play Pokemon Goas I eat my burger, and I'm
fine. Right?
It's it's really it's knowingthe wheres and whens. The the
biggest thing for the reality ofsometimes we do need to mask,
(25:15):
right, is is making that stuffovert, intentional, and visible.
So the biggest problem we runinto in corporate culture for
neurodivergent folks are theunwritten rules. Right? Mhmm.
You know, and I I I mean, Ithink
Mike Coffey (25:33):
What we call common sense sometimes. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (25:35):
And Okay. And it's common sense because eighty
percent of the population isneurotypical, and they largely
speak the same language. Theirbrains work very similarly. So I
can say to a neurotypicalperson, the boss is coming
today. They're like, I'm gonnaput on my best suit.
I say that to a neurodivergentperson whose brain doesn't work
that way, and they're like, oh,cool. We must be doing well as a
(25:57):
company. Like, that's areasonable conclusion to draw.
You're not making the same leap,though. So everybody else looks
like fresh out of, like, youknow, GQ magazine, and I'm
wearing my favorite work codingt shirt, and I'm crunching I'm
destroying code today.
I'm killing it. But the CEOcomes in, like, who's this
unkempt dude? And I'm like, I'myour best coder, sir. Mhmm.
(26:20):
Alright.
You know? So so when there arecultural norms that need to be
accounted for, we make theunspoken things spoken. Right?
We say, hey. Here's exactly whatI expect from you in this
situation.
Here's what to do, and here'swhat not to do. And taking the
extra five minutes to name thosethings for your neurodivergent
(26:43):
employees, that I mean, they'llfollow the rules forever. They
just need to know what they are.
Mike Coffey (26:48):
And companies wanna bring in diverse people for a
variety of reasons. And one ofthe things that we've really
found in the last five years istokenism doesn't work. It's not
a good business plan. It's notfair to the employees you're
bringing in. And it certainlydon't wanna set the culture
where people assume thatsomebody who has whatever traits
(27:11):
are are there because of thosetraits rather than their ability
to to perform the role.
How can an avoid an employeravoid avoid tokenism when
they're bringing actively tryingto bring in, attract, and and
retain neurodivergent employees?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (27:27):
So this is when we get into the idea of
what we call universal design.So the best practices that
accommodate the most people arejust the best practices. Right?
So if your company is up fourstairs from the parking lot, let
us bulldoze those stairs and putin a ramp because everybody can
(27:51):
get up a ramp. Right?
Not just the person, you know,not just the able-bodied people.
Right? Sure. And that could besomeone who sprains their ankle
playing basketball or somebodywho, you know, took a spill on
the ice or a million otherthings. Right?
But ramps, everybody can get ina ramp. You know? And if you
have a company where you canwork from home as long as you
(28:13):
let your team leader know, thenwe're not highlighting the
neurodivergent folks who can'tbe around other people all the
time. It's, you know, Stellafrom HR or Mike from, you know,
from the c suite or Tony, yourautistic IT specialist, they all
can work from home when theyneed to because reasons because
(28:34):
life happens. Right?
It isn't just a specific thingfor specific people. Because one
of the mental health challengeswe see a lot in retaining
neurodivergent people is theconcept of imposter syndrome.
Right? The idea is that if youhave a thing that makes you
different and you are made awareof that difference in overt ways
(28:55):
and in subtle ways, it fuelsthat idea of imposter syndrome.
Right?
If everybody else in the companywent to state you and you went
to tech, that's enough for yourbrain to go, maybe they only
hired me because they neededsomebody from tech. And and
that's not necessarily true. Butonce that anxiety worms its way
in there, it can become veryinsidious, and it can, like,
(29:18):
honestly, sabotage the employeefrom the inside out. So we we
make universal universal designas many things as possible. We
also create identity groups orleadership groups within your
company.
Most companies use the ERGmodel. Right? Employee resource
groups. Right? And I'veconsulted to probably somewhere
(29:40):
around a dozen of those in somepretty big companies just to
say, like, here's what we'redoing.
Here's how to avoid thattokenism. Let's make actionable
advice. Let's have things thatpeople need for a lot of ERGs
for neurodivergent people. Theymay not actually need to meet
that often. They just need mightneed to have a database where
(30:00):
you can go and find the thingyou need.
Right? Here's how to talk to HRabout getting your leave
approved rather than, like, doesanybody have any questions in
our meeting where there's pizza?Because that doesn't necessarily
work. Right? So we're we'rehaving internal staffing that
becomes that sort of beacon thatallows neurodivergent people to
(30:22):
go to their people.
You're using universal design tolower the barrier to entry for
every single person in yourcompany. And then the third
thing is be overt in your inyour messaging. Right? Be overt
in the way that we are heretrying to make things accessible
for every person who works here.And because with other kinds of
(30:46):
diversity, someone in awheelchair, someone of a
different nationality, someoneof a different skin color, those
things are are not easilyhidden.
Right? If you have a an employeewho wears a hijab, like, they're
not they're not gonna hide that.Right?
Mike Coffey (31:01):
Right.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (31:01):
But neurodivergence can be an
invisible disability. Right? Imean, you mentioned before you
have ADHD. I have ADHD as well.I don't know if anybody would
know by talking to us.
Right? But if they left us alonein a waiting room and then they
come back in and we were doing,like, you know, battle bots with
pencils and markers, They'relike, oh, then now it's
(31:24):
abundantly clear.
Mike Coffey (31:25):
That makes sense. Right. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (31:26):
You know? So it becomes this thing where just
make your learning process as acompany transparent. Say like,
hey, we don't have all theanswers, but we're taking these
steps for these reasons, and wewant to know more. And and I
think when that kind of I'm fondof saying that neurodivergent
(31:48):
people are allergic to bullshit.Right?
Like, you Mhmm. Like, you can'tI can see that. Right? You can't
lie to us. Like, we'll runthrough a brick wall for you if
we know why we're runningthrough the brick wall.
So it's like, listen. I'm notgonna sit here and say I have
all the answers. Right? Thatintellectual humility means, oh,
man. This guy's not bullshittingme.
(32:08):
That's awesome. I want onboardwith this. I want to build this
co created benefit from theirgrowth curve because then
everybody in that company knowsthat it's a living document, not
like the 10 commandments handeddown from God. Right? And when
people know that they're a partof something that's growing and
(32:29):
evolving, they invest more intoit, and they get more from it.
So it's sort of a win win.
Mike Coffey (32:36):
Interesting. To wrap up, so what do I do with
all my neurotypical people? Imean, how do I get them ready to
not make this a thing that getsin the way of how you know,
because we've all worked withneurotypical people who we, you
know, who have very strongbeliefs about how the way things
(32:57):
ought to be. And, you know, andwhen somebody acts outside you
know, colors outside of thoselines, it it it makes you know,
it it gives them some grief. Andso what how do you prepare your
neurotypical, employees forespecially those more rigid or,
you know, who may, who knows,have their own, you know,
(33:19):
neurodiversity of their youknow, maybe a neurodiverse
population all of it tothemselves.
But how do you prepare them toto work in this different
environment where they maybehave people who aren't thinking,
behaving the way they expect?
Dr. Matt Zakreski (33:32):
So I I often call this the supervillain test.
Yeah. So if I'm Chuck in salesand I'm neurotypical and I've
done things this way my wholelife, I was a business major. I
get how this works. And then wehire Elizabeth.
And Elizabeth is ADHD anddyslexic, and she goes about it
(33:52):
in an entirely different way.She takes her clients out to
coffee. She's always, like,sending, like, little, like,
little notes. And you're like,that's not about the business
relationship where it's allabout the bottom line. And so if
they come and talk to themanager, I would say, so we know
that this person is atypical.
They're doing things a differentway. Now do you think I'm good
(34:15):
at my job? And the person'slike, well, of course. We've
been working together for years.It's like, so here's the deal.
Either I have a good reason forhiring this person because of
their atypicality, so we need totrust me, Or I'm a supervillain,
and I'm trying to screw withyour career. Right? And it's
what it does is it anticipatesthe emotional argument from your
(34:38):
from the employee, and it sortof short circuits it. It's like,
I don't like it. I don't get it,but I also know you're not a
super villain.
Right? So it it builds a niceframework, a nice barrier around
that conversation.
Mike Coffey (34:51):
That's great.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (34:51):
You know? And if I can throw one more piece of
advice out there, it's goodpractice for all of us to be
very intentional in ourlanguage. So we take a lot of
shortcuts in when we speak.Like, I might say, oh, hey,
Mike. Go get the thing.
And I know what the thing is.Mike, do you know what the thing
is?
Mike Coffey (35:10):
I have no idea.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (35:11):
No idea. So I'm gonna get mad at you for not
getting the thing that you don'tknow what the thing was in the
first place. Right? And I thisis I need this in my parenting
workshops all the time, and Icannot tell you how many HR
professionals and businessmanagers come up to me. Like, I
need to do this at the office.
I'm like, yes. You do. Right?Say what you mean and mean what
(35:31):
you say. Right?
So if if I'm using a turn ofphrase that's like actually,
this is a very adorable example.One of my one of my, gifted
employees, he works for a prettypretty big real estate firm. You
know, he was talking to somebodywho'd just been transferred into
the office, and he's like, oh,hey. How are you doing? He's
(35:53):
working on small talk.
We're very proud of him. And theguy's like, oh, you know, man.
One more one day closer todeath. Right? One of those
things that you say, and it'slike, you know, it's a little
bit gallows humor.
It's a little bit life is hard.I get it. I'm here for it. My
client who's very sincere andtakes most things at very face
value, he called HR. He's like,I'm worried about the new hire.
(36:15):
He said he's one day closer todeath. Can you make him a psych
referral? And it's, like, it'sso sweet. Right? And so this
this guy was like, well, Ididn't know.
I mean, I'm not suicidal.Everything's fine. You know? But
they invited me to be a part ofthis debrief, and I'm like, so
here's how this came across tothis guy. So in the future, you
(36:36):
might say something like, I'mhaving a tough day or, like, you
know, things are hard, but I'mI'm doing okay.
Like, you don't owe him that,but it makes everybody's life
easier if you can just be veryintentional with what you say.
And to this guy's great credit,he he took it with grace. He
took it with humility. He foundthe humor in it. He's like, man,
I gotta be careful in what Isay.
(36:57):
I was like, it that's also agood lesson here. Yeah. And that
just like, all those littleidioms, all those little
shortcuts we use with ourlanguage, it's built by the
monoculture. The monoculture isa neurotypical culture. So I
might say to one of my moreconcrete employees, like, I need
to talk to you later.
Everything's fine. I'm talkingto you about your sales goals.
(37:19):
I'm gonna use that extralanguage, what we call meta
communication, to build thestructure around that in a way
that sort of limits theemotional flailing that may
occur.
Mike Coffey (37:32):
Occur. Doctor Matthew Zakreski is author of
The Neurodiversity Playbook, HowNeurodivergent People Can Crack
the Code of Living in aNeurotypical World. Thanks for
joining us today, Doctor. Matt.
Dr. Matt Zakreski (37:44):
It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Mike Coffey (37:46):
You'll find links to Matt's book and other
resources in the show notes, andthank you for listening. Also,
if you enjoyed this episode,please leave us a review
wherever you get your podcast.It helps other people find us as
does sharing the episode on yourfavorite social media platform.
Rob Upchurch is our technicalproducer and you can reach him
(38:06):
at robmakespods dot com. Andthank you to Imperative's
marketing coordinator, Mary AnneHernandez, who keeps the trains
running on time.
And I'm the very ADHD MikeCoffey. As always, don't
hesitate to reach out if I canbe of service to you personally
or professionally. I'll see younext week and until then, be
well, do good, and keep yourchin up.
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