May 12, 2025 • 38 mins
🎧 Episode Description:
In this episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave dive deep into the heart of relational evangelism—how to effectively go, find, and invite people to Jesus. They share powerful stories from the mission field, training efforts across Mexico, and the importance of inviting people not just to church, but to a relationship with Christ. You’ll hear how urgency, strategy, and even a puppy can play a role in sharing the gospel. Plus, they tackle one of the biggest fears in evangelism: rejection. Is it personal, or is it spiritual? And how should we respond? Whether you're new to sharing your faith or you've been doing it for years, this episode will challenge and encourage you to see the Gospel not as a pitch—but as a wedding invitation from the King.
đź“ŤChapter List:
- 00:00 – Introduction to Relational Evangelism
- 09:24 – Mission Trips and Training Opportunities
- 10:15 – The Urgency of Evangelism
- 18:26 – Strategizing for Evangelism
- 28:14 – Inviting Others to the Gospel
- 37:57 – The Importance of Acceptance and Rejection
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
I'm George, I'm your co-host today and with me is Jeff Musgrave.
He's back and very excited to sit down and talk with you guys about a really importanttopic.
How do you go and find people and then invite them effectively to a relationship withJesus?
(00:26):
Before we get into that topic today,
I just want to talk briefly about some mission trips coming up that Jeff is going to betaking training churches in Mexico, right?
Jeff, you want to tell us a little bit about where you're going?
Yeah, I'm working with a seminary out of Nogales and uh all three of these uh trips in andout of Mexico uh will be associated with that seminary.
(00:53):
It's Nogales Baptist Seminary there in the city of Nogales.
So I'll just be flying into Tucson, uh driving across.
The first uh seminar is in a place called Canonia.
It's up in the mountains, so it's still in the Sonora Desert, it's a high uh desert thereand it's a very interesting place.
(01:15):
The city is there because of a huge copper mine and it seems to be quite open.
The church that I'm teaching out of is a recent church plan.
It's only about two years old.
They're self-supporting.
uh super exciting ministry.
There's a group of people there that wanted a church, went to the seminary in Nogales andsaid, you know, you got to find us a church planter.
(01:44):
And one of the professors got really burdened about it and left the seminary to go andstart this church.
And so they are extremely well pastored.
uh The church is uh thriving.
And then there are several churches around the area that will be coming in for trainingwith us.
(02:05):
The second week that of these different trips that I'm taking is actually Chicago hasnothing to do with Mexico training, some uh missionaries, there's a group of deputizing
missionaries that are going to be there.
10 to 15 missionaries will be training, spend a whole week with them.
And that'll be, I mean, literally all day long, every day.
(02:25):
ah They are, they actually have to,
test and prove proficiency before they can go to the field.
that's an exciting week I'll be looking forward to.
And then we'll go back to Nogales and train there with the seminary family.
And so there'll be students from the seminary, there'll be faculty members.
And this particular uh seminar that I'm doing is the specifics of the gospel.
(02:52):
And so the theology will be uh
what we'll be focusing on helping people understand who God is, how to have a closerelationship with him, how to articulate that in a way that an unbeliever can understand.
And then the last week I'll be flying down to uh Mexico City and across to Culiacan.
(03:14):
It's uh next to the coast down below Baja, California.
And it is a
really beautiful city down there that we'll be working with, large city and has plenty ofopportunities.
That is also kind of a replant church and the young translator that I work with downthere, that's where he uh is pastoring.
(03:42):
And so I'm real excited to be able to help that church and the various churches in thearea.
That's incredible.
And by the way, you would not believe how many missionaries, I mean, this is soincredible, you know, incredible value add to train a missionary in the exchange.
And you get to the field, you assume a missionary would know how to lead somebody toChrist effectively, but you'd be surprised how many missionaries really don't have that
(04:04):
training.
so really excited.
And then Mexico, mean, boy, what an opportunity.
just the churches are growing like, like wildfire down there.
I mean, it's incredible what God is doing in the world of Latin America.
it is.
And it's exciting.
All of our materials are translated into Spanish at a professional translator do it.
And it's really a great translation.
(04:26):
And that particular uh set of tools is a complete package.
It's really exciting to be able to see how the Lord uses it.
I see more and more orders coming through the exchange website for Spanish materials.
I mean, it's kind of incredible how many Spanish tracks and Spanish Bible studies go out.
It's really kind of amazing.
(04:48):
I mean,
it.
We love uh selling books at the exchange.
You probably know this, George, I don't think we make any money off of our books haven'traised any prices for 16 years.
ah But every time a book goes out the door, we know that's a unbeliever that's going to bepresented with the gospel.
And so we just see books as ministry.
(05:10):
Yeah, you think about that.
You said 16 years, we haven't raised the prices on the books and inflation has done whatit's done in this country.
I mean, really, this is a ministry for the exchange.
It's not just about profit margins or anything like that.
But the books and all that, they become tremendous tools in the hands of these people.
I think our audience can get involved at the cost.
(05:32):
The price tag of this trip, correct me if I'm wrong, is about $6,000.
We're looking for m
60 people who can give $100.
Did I do the math right?
I think so.
I think that's extremely affordable.
That's one of the nice things about just going on the other side of the border.
It's not super expensive, but it's super productive.
(05:54):
So we're excited about that.
Yeah, you think about you're getting really four mission trips for that price becauseyou're going to train missionaries, which impacts the mission field.
And then you're going to three places there in Mexico.
And so really, really excited for those four weeks of missions related work.
And you guys can go to uh exchangemessage.org forward slash give.
(06:16):
and can give a gift of $100 or whatever the Lord lays on your heart.
We just ask you to pray about what God would want you to give and you give that, whateverhe lays on your heart.
But 60 people, $100 each, we cover the cost of the trip and become huge blessings.
I know the way you do it, Pastor Jeff, is you don't want to be a burden to themissionaries financially by visiting.
(06:39):
That wouldn't be productive either.
So that's why we raise this money.
That's absolutely right.
That that covers the cost of the uh airfare, but it also gives me enough cash to be ableto carry down and leave with.
I never come home with any money ah and and be a blessing to our host down there.
Those those pastors are sacrificial.
(07:02):
They're living on very, very little.
We don't want to be a burden to them.
Want to be able to go down and help them.
And just so you know how I approach the whole concept of uh giving, we feel like it's ourresponsibility to let the people of God know, without the people of God, the exchange
could not be a ministry.
(07:24):
But we actually look to God himself to provide for us.
And we're just asking God to lay it on the hearts of people to be able to support thiswork of training and providing tools down in Mexico.
Yeah.
By the way, I've been a recipient of this generosity because you guys came to visit uswhen we were in Kenya.
(07:46):
And as I recall, you left a chunk of change with me and it was incredibly, incrediblygenerous.
you know, m just, mean, for a missionary, that can mean the world in terms of not just,it's not about the money, just somebody is supporting you, cares for you, loves you enough
to leave behind what's in their pocket.
(08:07):
And uh
That's pretty incredible.
Yeah, well, I am the recipient of generous uh Christians all over the United States.
And it is the giving of the people that support the exchange and love the exchange thatenables me to be able to be generous.
So uh it is a blessing to be able to be a channel to pass those funds on where they can beused.
(08:33):
And we love you guys in our audience.
You guys are incredible supporters of this.
You listening, subscribing, supporting us, writing us emails, giving towards the ministry.
That's huge.
That's what propels us.
And this ministry started as an idea in Pastor Jeff and Anna's living room and has nowgrown to what it is because of our listeners, our supporters, and the people who've been
(08:58):
here from the start.
oh
I don't I haven't told you this, but I got an email this week that a missionary inAustralia, he and his church are listening to the podcast on a weekly basis and seeing the
Lord stir them up.
And it's, I think it's great to know that we have people on the mission field that arebeing helped by the podcast themselves.
(09:24):
That's incredible.
Yeah, I'm noticing our number of listeners keeps going up.
I think now we're over 2,000 people listening to this podcast, is incredible.
We just started and haven't hit 100 episodes yet.
So I'm very, very excited for what God is doing.
so let's go ahead and go into go find invite.
(09:47):
This is one of my favorite sections of giving the exchange.
think it's Jesus.
does these three parables side by side and uh in the lead up to the parable on the weddingfeast.
And it's incredible.
He lays out a method of evangelism, a picture of evangelism that I think is really, reallyprofound.
And I've loved listening to you teach this passage.
(10:10):
So take it away.
Tell us what's going on there in the gospels.
Yeah, so this is from uh Giving the Exchange chapter one and there are three differentpictures of what we call relational evangelism.
This particular one is really uh extremely helpful on several planes.
(10:31):
I think that the thing that hits me the most is it helps me recognize the urgency of theFather, the Father wanting the guest for the son's wedding feast.
and him sending out his servants.
so sometimes I think relational evangelism can get a little bit of a bad rap because itseems like it's a little passive and I get really perturbed not with people saying that
(11:03):
about relational evangelism because I love people thinking we ought to be urgent.
get I get frustrated with people who are passive and thinking
You know, God's sovereign.
He's going to do it.
And yes, God calls people and God is working, but he chooses us and he has sent us.
We are the ones who've been sent out into the highways and the byways uh to find people.
(11:28):
And so I feel there's a real urgency here and it's not just my urgency.
It's not just I'm trying to work it up, but it's the urgency of the father who said I wantmy servants to go.
I love that.
You know, we all have a responsibility and it's the Great Commission is not optional foranybody.
(11:49):
So I do believe that, you know, using the doctrine of sovereignty to say we don't have tobe obedient to Jesus's command would be a contradiction of scripture, right?
I mean, the Bible doesn't contradict itself.
you know, it's like Charles Spurgeon said, until God puts a yellow stripe down people'sbacks, I mean, we really have to be aggressive and go and build relationships.
(12:10):
Absolutely.
And I think that in no way does that undo the working of God or the sovereignty of God.
God is the one who is uh calling people to himself.
And I actually believe the way we find the elect is by giving them the gospel.
(12:30):
If they respond to the gospel, then we know that these are the ones that God is workingin.
But we're to give the gospel to everyone indiscriminately.
Go.
into the highways he tells us in this parable.
By the way, it's Matthew 22 uh and uh the story starts with sending servants out and eachone of them being rejected.
(12:55):
The people who they invited said no and I think it's an appropriate uh observation to saythat not everyone we give the gospel to is going to
respond positively, but we can go because the father has sent us and know that some aregoing to say yes, and that we're going to see the wedding feast full as a result of our
(13:25):
being obedient.
So some of them said no.
And the father said, Look, I want you servants to go out into the highways out into theplaces where you don't know people.
And I think that when we think about relational evangelism, there are some times we canwitness to our friends.
But there are some times when we have to make friends in order to be able to witness tothem.
(13:50):
It's it's not just witnessing to the people we know.
It's literally trying to make friends everywhere we go.
Hmm.
You know, uh it's an incredible thing because the servants get these waves of rejection.
And you wonder if they start to come back and think, uh boy, what are we doing wrong?
(14:10):
Do we have to redesign the wedding invite?
Do we need a better website?
Do we need a better advertising strategy?
Obviously, none of those things, that's not what they would have been thinking, but theywould have been trying to figure out why.
And it was getting more dangerous every time they went out.
uh which is pretty incredible.
And in the lead up to this, because we know from the parables before, we know from theparable of the vineyard, they killed.
(14:37):
And so it became pretty dangerous to be a mouthpiece for God in Israel over time.
then Jesus says in the parable, the king says, we'll go way, way out there, which Ibelieve is a big uh principle of
The gospel does not discriminate.
I the gospel is for everybody, all types.
(15:00):
And it's usually the unlikely people that are going to respond to it, not the people youthink of.
Sometimes it's people on the margins that are the ones that they're going to be receptive.
It's like in India, it's the unclean, it's the, what are they called?
Yeah, the ones who aren't even in a cast.
cast.
(15:21):
Yeah, the ones who aren't even in a cast, Untouchables, they call them Untouchables.
It's those people in our societies that are going to be receptive, most likely to thegospel.
But it's for everybody, all types.
Absolutely.
I think that uh
we have to kind of strategize sometimes when it comes to going because frankly a goodbeliever is going to spend a lot of time with other believers.
(15:51):
mean that's God calls us to do that.
He calls us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together.
That uh church by the way is not listening to a sermon.
Church is being with God's people and uh and so
If we're spending a lot of time with God's people, then we know a lot of believers andsometimes we don't know a lot of unbelievers.
(16:13):
We have to be strategic about it.
I have a new puppy and you know, just like children are our people magnets, puppies areour people magnets.
And so three times now I have taken this long two mile loop with my little puppy and Ican't make that loop without
(16:36):
people stopping me and wanting to talk to the puppy.
So I, I'm just making a habit of getting to know now, what is your name?
Which, which house do you live in?
And just beginning to get to know people because I have to be strategic.
I have to work at finding people.
And that's really the second piece on here is not only do we go, but we have tostrategically find people where we're going, identify people.
(17:04):
everywhere we go and and start making lists in our minds of the people that God ispresenting to us that we could cultivate those relationships and be able to tell them
about Jesus.
We call those, we have an acronym, right?
Fans.
Could you tell us what that stands for?
Because I can't recall right now off the top of my
first one is friends and it stands F A N S.
(17:26):
So it's, it's really not that we want fans.
We just want to identify who they are.
So the first is friends and family.
Those are the people, uh, that, that we are closest to.
then, uh, associates, those are people at work.
Sometimes there are people at play on our, on our sports teams, those sorts of things.
(17:47):
So just, just acquaintances.
can fit into that A category as well.
Neighbors, uh I think of neighbors as the people who live in houses that I can see, but asI'm on a walk in my neighborhood, every one of those people are my neighbors.
uh And so recognizing that our neighbors are uh people that we can look for.
(18:13):
And then the S is for strangers.
Those are the people that we haven't met yet.
But God is sending into our lives.
This sovereign God is sending them into our lives so that we can get to know them, tellthem about Jesus.
love that and one of the things we push people towards uh in a seminar at the end, one ofthe applications, there's a 30 day challenge and there's the find five.
(18:34):
And so you want to list five people that are one of those categories, neighbors,associates, family, friends, and strangers that you've met.
And we would call that a divine appointment, by the way.
think one day we're going to do a whole episode on divine appointments.
ah But when God gives you a divine appointment with a stranger or whatnot and
(18:55):
or you meet somebody on an airplane and you start praying for those people.
mean, boy, I promise you, you pray.
I don't know when he's gonna work, but I promise you he is gonna work and he's gonna helpyou to reach those people.
And I actually got that idea that find five from a Will Galkin meeting that I had yearsago.
(19:16):
He talked about targeting 10 and I kind of decided that 10 is a little hard for me tomanage.
And so I wanted to shorten that down.
And so we're just doing fine.
Five.
have a friend who uses what he calls I three
and he really focuses on three and these are the words that he uses and the reason hecalls it I three, he said, we're going to identify those people.
(19:44):
We're going to invest in those people and then we're going to invite them to meet Jesus.
And I really love being able to put those three eyes with it so that I can have someactionable state.
You know, these, are the things I'm going to do.
I'm going to identify people this morning on my walk.
(20:05):
I met Larry and Anita and I so now I identify them.
Now I'm going to see if I can invest in that relationship with the intention of being ableto invite them to do an exchange Bible study with me.
So I think if we can put it into actionable items, it helps us.
(20:26):
Yeah, for sure, 100%.
And I think when you invest in people, people will tell you what their needs are, and youjust have to be listening well enough.
But when they identify those needs, those are our opportunities.
Last night I was taking my trash cans out, putting them on the curb, and my neighbor cameout and told me that he had hired a guy to paint the fascia board of his house, and he
(20:52):
didn't do a good job, he didn't pressure wash it, has to be repainted.
I just looked at him and said, Hey, Ray, if I have a pressure washer, I can help youpressure wash, knock it out.
can primer it together and even paint the fascia board real quick.
He's like, you do that?
And I said, yeah, I do that.
know, Ray is an atheist.
I already know that about him.
(21:13):
But if I can invest and just show love for the sake of love, mean that
that it's, there are, mean, from a puppy dog to whatever tool is in your tool bag, youknow, just leverage anything God has given you to reach out to people.
I love that word leverage.
mean, this the stuff we have the time we have, even the very talents that God has given tous.
(21:40):
They are given to us on a temporal basis and God wants us to leverage invest those thingsinto that which is eternal.
And yeah, that that's a beautiful picture of leveraging what God has given us.
to be able to make a difference in people's lives.
Yep.
Let me ask you a question on Matthew 22.
(22:02):
I've preached it, you've preached it.
One of the things that I notice is there's a statement that Jesus makes in the parableabout people who reject the offer and what it says of them.
Sometimes in Christianity when we get rejected and trying to find people, invest inpeople, when somebody says, nope, I'm not interested in you finding me, ah you know, and
(22:25):
they kind of run away.
What do you believe that's indicative of?
oh What do you believe is going on there in that person's heart?
I was just reading about a passage this morning in which the Jewish uh leaders that wereconfronting Jesus and john five didn't believe because they weren't giving glory to God or
(22:49):
seeking glory from God.
And I really believe that we need to recognize that we're just mouthpieces were sent aspeople to uh tell and invite but
ultimately it is God who does the drawing, it is God who does the working, and it is theirrelationship with God that is keeping them from it.
(23:13):
You know, the Bible says men love darkness more than light because their actions are eviland they don't want the light to shine into their lives.
I just think that that doesn't necessarily mean, by the way, that that person is nevergoing to be interested.
It's just that right this minute they're
life is focused on the temporal, the self satisfying and they're not recognizing that thereal satisfaction is found in Jesus.
(23:47):
I don't know what you think about this.
I you tell me if this is a fair statement and I'm pulling up the passage right now, but Ithink a lot of Christians struggle with rejection in terms of, you know, this is their
fear in evangelism.
And I think because rejection brings shame, know, we can think things like this and I'veat times thought things like this earlier in my Christian walk.
(24:11):
Oh, they rejected...
the gospel because nobody wants the gospel, it's hellfire and brimstone, or they rejectedme because I must have not done something right or I didn't pray enough.
ah Would it be fair to say that their rejection of the gospel is to their shame?
(24:34):
ah Is that fair?
ultimately it will be evident.
so it's not, there's no way you can say that's not fair because that's exactly what theBible says.
So yes.
Okay, yeah, I and I've told believers that, I've preached that at a church and said, look,sometimes we take the shame that's actually their shame, we take it and we put it on our
(25:04):
message or we put it on our movement.
And that's not at all true.
I think that's a lie of Satan.
That's one of the reasons he uses rejection as such a great, it's a great tool for him,rejection and deterring people from evangelism.
And what we have to remember is when somebody acts like a sinner who is not indwelt by theHoly Spirit, we shouldn't be shocked.
(25:31):
And that doesn't mean there's something wrong with us.
I'm sitting here looking at the passage and I think that sometimes we feel like we'realmost taking advantage of people by trying to sell them on our worldview or our religion.
And I love this picture.
(25:52):
Again, he sent service saying, tell those who are invited, see, I have prepared my dinner,my oxen and my fat calves.
have been slaughtered and everything is ready come to the wedding feast.
And uh you know, this is a real wedding feast that we are uh inviting people to.
And this is the best thing that we could ever uh give to people.
(26:17):
And this is not us taking advantage of people.
This is us giving them the very best that we have.
And I think if we can think of it in that
way that it will really change this view of shame uh associated with, uh you know, theytreated me shamefully, I'm embarrassed about this.
(26:38):
And then the fact is, we're trying to help people.
Yeah, I think I heard something a while ago.
was attending Shepard's conference and heard one of the speakers say, the reason thatministry can't be like a business is because we have a product nobody wants.
And I don't think that's totally untrue, but I think I would change that to say this.
(26:59):
We have a product that people initially don't know that they want, but actually down deep,they really, really want everything we're having to offer.
It's just a question of do they want something else more?
And I think what we have to offer answers all those soul needs.
They want to not be lonely.
They want to be loved.
(27:21):
They want to have purpose.
They want to have security.
They want to have all those soul needs.
And this gives them that.
They just don't, they don't know it yet.
They don't realize it.
And so just, it's pretty incredible when you look at the Gospel, you go,
This, I mean, I present it now with confidence because I know what people want.
(27:44):
I mean, I've worked enough with people that it's like, no, I know this is what they want,even if they don't know this is what they want.
And this is what they were created for.
The Bible tells me they were created in the image of God.
And this is, this is what their soul desires for it.
It's very thirsty, it's parched.
It's going to the well, looking for water day after day and always coming back, alwaysthirsty, never satisfied.
(28:08):
And finally, Jesus comes and says, I will satisfy you.
They have to want it.
They have to want it.
woman at the well was ready to reject Jesus.
um Because what she was looking for was was she was looking in all the wrong places forwhat she was looking for.
And when Jesus helped her to recognize it, it's like immediately she left her water pot.
(28:34):
mean, the very thing she came to the well for she left because she recognized No, no, Igot what I really needed.
And what I really
Right.
a beautiful picture.
It is, and I do love it.
um if we're ready to talk about inviting here, there is, I think, a faith element in thisparable of the king slaughters an ox and a fatted calf.
(29:00):
And he expects a huge, I mean, that's an incredible amount of meat.
I just went and got my cow from Colorado.
I was up in Montrose.
It is...
440 pounds and I'm not even sure it's a fatted calf.
It seems pretty lean to me, I mean 440 pounds of meat you could feed a village and then anox.
(29:21):
An ox is a bigger animal.
It's got more meat.
I think we think that we shouldn't expect many people, but God expects a lot of people tocome.
He does when we invite.
Yeah.
point.
That's, that's awesome.
I, I have always loved the word invite, because I have I was raised in an environment inwhich we went out soul winning.
(29:50):
And we you know, our whole goal was to have a conversation in which someone
was converted that day.
And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing.
I'm just saying that I felt as a young person, I'm sure it was on me, not the peopleteaching me, but I felt a major responsibility to go out and win someone, to convince
(30:13):
them, to talk them into it.
And I love the word invite because it's not on me.
My job is to invite them to the wedding feast.
It's on...
the Lord to stir that heart.
And I love working in partnership with the Lord that way.
And uh I feel like if we can imagine the wonders of what people are gaining when theyembrace Jesus, then inviting them to come and see Jesus is not difficult at all.
(30:44):
Yeah, yeah, I was just talking, there's two pastors I had extensive conversation with thisweek.
One of them, we spent an hour on the phone together.
He used to be a missionary in Tanzania, and he knew I was a missionary from Kenya.
And so we talked about that.
And then he just kind of opened up and we actually became kindred spirits at the end ofthe conversation.
We saved each other's phone numbers and he said, can we just call each other every once ina while and just encourage each other?
(31:07):
And I said, absolutely.
And I really love this guy.
I really love what God is doing through him in the church there.
in Ohio and we started talking and he said, you know what, I grew up in the same exactkind of circumstance that you just described, Jeff.
He grew up in a soul winning door knocking and he's in a church that is still stuck onthose methods.
(31:30):
And he said to me, just kind of in frustration a little bit, but not frustrated with hispeople, just frustrated with the process, that just doesn't work anymore.
So when you look,
at methods of invitation, when we apply this to our modern context, what would be themethods of invitation that would work today?
(31:53):
I think the very first thing you do is you invite them into your life.
It is, I love aiming at inviting someone to do a Bible study with me.
That seems number one, 41 % of people in the United States have said, if a friend asked meto do a Bible, to study the Bible with them, I would say yes.
(32:16):
And so I think inviting people to do the Bible study is just super effective.
But I also think that sometimes people hear that and it's like they're walking around withtheir Bible study like they were going door-to-door and So I think the very first thing we
have to do is invite people into our lives Let let them recognize that There's a personwho's going to love you and going to care for you.
(32:46):
I loved by the way your podcast with Cody that was so heartwarming
Mmm.
think that it is so apparent that what really impacted Cody was someone who cared enoughabout him to let him ask his questions, to invest time with them.
And it is very obvious just watching the two of you talk to each other, that God has givenyou a bond.
(33:12):
And I just think we have to recognize, we have to invite people into our lives.
We have to invest in them as people.
Hmm.
Yeah, I do believe you have to like people to be good at this to be effective.
shouldn't say good effective at it.
But but I think I think as well, when we talk about why, I mean, this is something Iwondered, I've never I don't think I've even asked you.
(33:38):
But I'm just wondering right now, we don't have to answer it right now.
But why do people not want to reach the people in the cubicle next to them?
and much prefer to try to reach a stranger in an interaction that's almost doomed to fail.
What are they scared of?
What's preventing them from saying, are we scared that we have to see this person everyday and we have to be confronted with this ongoing conversation or rejection every day?
(34:08):
Or do you think it's, don't want to lose my job over this and be canceled in today'sculture?
What do you think it is that we don't want to witness to our family, our friends, and ourassociates that we'd much rather witness to the S?
I don't know that I can answer that.
And I don't know that, I don't know that there is a single answer to it, but I can saythat it is a ongoing problem in many people's lives.
(34:36):
We, we hear it in training every week that people ask a question, you know, I, I don'twant to hurt the relationship and I'm thinking, yeah, but I mean, if you really care for
that person,
You have to want the best for them.
This is not about me trying to take advantage of you.
(34:58):
I really do think that there is a part of it that says we have to help that personunderstand that as they are, they are not qualified for a relationship with God.
And I think that's really hard to show people because I think
(35:19):
the average person out there believes that I think I've been good enough.
I think I might make it.
helping them recognize, you're not going to make it.
That step is hard.
And I totally get that.
I I feel that myself sometimes.
So I totally understand why people think that.
Well, and uh like I was, I had coffee with Cody just yesterday for a regular meetup and uhhe was talking about, he says something pretty profound.
(35:47):
He said, my goal is not to force people to change, it's to plant seeds.
And I think if we see it like that, that we don't have to feel like we're on a timelinewhere we have to force and cram something down somebody's throat.
but we can through the bridge of relationship plant seeds over and over and over and over.
(36:08):
And that's what God asks us to do.
And then Paul says, hey, some plant, some water, but God gives the increase.
And I think sometimes what we've done is we've taken on God's role in evangelism andtrying to make something happen where what we were supposed to do was plant seeds.
So maybe it's even a misconception of what are we supposed to do in this relationship?
(36:30):
What's our responsibility?
I have always felt like the word faith is a huge word.
We have to actually believe that God is saving people, that when I put a seed in aperson's life, that the word of God is going to produce life.
I read this morning in John 5, if they hear, they will live.
(36:55):
And those are the words of Jesus.
And if they will listen to
us tell them about Jesus, they'll be saved.
That's going to happen.
And so planting seed with a a mind of faith is critical.
It's not that I am making it happen.
(37:15):
I believe this seed is going to make a difference in that person's life.
So it's more I hear people all the time saying I, plant a lot of seed, I don't see a lotof people saved.
And I don't know that they're doing the same thing you're talking about, George.
Right, absolutely.
Yeah, and bringing people to a position of a point of crisis where they have to make adecision, they're invited.
(37:36):
And I love this parable because they come in, they come into the wedding, and still thereis one who comes in who refuses the garments.
Is that how you interpret that part of the passage?
That they were offered but they refused and then they decided, I'm gonna stick around andsee if I can sneak by anyway.
And then they were judged for that.
so.
(37:57):
It's incredible that it's God who does the judging, but it's also they have an offer fromGod himself that they have to accept or reject, and we cannot accept it or reject it for
them.
It's really between them and the Lord.
If I could do that, I would.
I'd take it for them, but no, every single person has to choose.
(38:22):
Every single person has to trust.
Here's the wonderful thing is that God is calling people to himself and that some willchoose to trust him.
Amen.
Well, I think that wraps it up.
Thank you guys so much for listening.
If you haven't subscribed to this podcast, please hit that subscribe button.
(38:43):
It really helps us.
And if there's somebody you know that would benefit from listening to these conversationsand benefit from being encouraged in their evangelism and discipleship, we just encourage
you share that with somebody you know and...
m
Also, if there's a question you have or something you'd like us to answer, you can emailme at george at exchangemessage.org.
(39:06):
That's george at exchangemessage.org.
Don't forget, a gift to the mission trips that are coming up here in a couple of weeks.
We need a total of $6,000, 60 people who can give $100 each to go and help thosemissionaries and help those three churches and the seminary in Mexico.
As always, pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forthlaborers.
(39:29):
We know we don't have a harvest problem.
We have a labor shortage and we need your help.
We need to pray together uh as Christians that God would raise up the laborers in you andin us to go out and reach our communities with the gospel.
Thank you guys so much for listening.
We love you guys and we will see you next week.
Welcome back everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
I'm George, I'm your co-host today and with me is Jeff Musgrave.
He's back and very excited to sit down and talk with you guys about a really importanttopic.
How do you go and find people and then invite them effectively to a relationship withJesus?
(00:26):
Before we get into that topic today,
I just want to talk briefly about some mission trips coming up that Jeff is going to betaking training churches in Mexico, right?
Jeff, you want to tell us a little bit about where you're going?
Yeah, I'm working with a seminary out of Nogales and uh all three of these uh trips in andout of Mexico uh will be associated with that seminary.
(00:53):
It's Nogales Baptist Seminary there in the city of Nogales.
So I'll just be flying into Tucson, uh driving across.
The first uh seminar is in a place called Canonia.
It's up in the mountains, so it's still in the Sonora Desert, it's a high uh desert thereand it's a very interesting place.
(01:15):
The city is there because of a huge copper mine and it seems to be quite open.
The church that I'm teaching out of is a recent church plan.
It's only about two years old.
They're self-supporting.
uh super exciting ministry.
There's a group of people there that wanted a church, went to the seminary in Nogales andsaid, you know, you got to find us a church planter.
(01:44):
And one of the professors got really burdened about it and left the seminary to go andstart this church.
And so they are extremely well pastored.
uh The church is uh thriving.
And then there are several churches around the area that will be coming in for trainingwith us.
(02:05):
The second week that of these different trips that I'm taking is actually Chicago hasnothing to do with Mexico training, some uh missionaries, there's a group of deputizing
missionaries that are going to be there.
10 to 15 missionaries will be training, spend a whole week with them.
And that'll be, I mean, literally all day long, every day.
(02:25):
ah They are, they actually have to,
test and prove proficiency before they can go to the field.
that's an exciting week I'll be looking forward to.
And then we'll go back to Nogales and train there with the seminary family.
And so there'll be students from the seminary, there'll be faculty members.
And this particular uh seminar that I'm doing is the specifics of the gospel.
(02:52):
And so the theology will be uh
what we'll be focusing on helping people understand who God is, how to have a closerelationship with him, how to articulate that in a way that an unbeliever can understand.
And then the last week I'll be flying down to uh Mexico City and across to Culiacan.
(03:14):
It's uh next to the coast down below Baja, California.
And it is a
really beautiful city down there that we'll be working with, large city and has plenty ofopportunities.
That is also kind of a replant church and the young translator that I work with downthere, that's where he uh is pastoring.
(03:42):
And so I'm real excited to be able to help that church and the various churches in thearea.
That's incredible.
And by the way, you would not believe how many missionaries, I mean, this is soincredible, you know, incredible value add to train a missionary in the exchange.
And you get to the field, you assume a missionary would know how to lead somebody toChrist effectively, but you'd be surprised how many missionaries really don't have that
(04:04):
training.
so really excited.
And then Mexico, mean, boy, what an opportunity.
just the churches are growing like, like wildfire down there.
I mean, it's incredible what God is doing in the world of Latin America.
it is.
And it's exciting.
All of our materials are translated into Spanish at a professional translator do it.
And it's really a great translation.
(04:26):
And that particular uh set of tools is a complete package.
It's really exciting to be able to see how the Lord uses it.
I see more and more orders coming through the exchange website for Spanish materials.
I mean, it's kind of incredible how many Spanish tracks and Spanish Bible studies go out.
It's really kind of amazing.
(04:48):
I mean,
it.
We love uh selling books at the exchange.
You probably know this, George, I don't think we make any money off of our books haven'traised any prices for 16 years.
ah But every time a book goes out the door, we know that's a unbeliever that's going to bepresented with the gospel.
And so we just see books as ministry.
(05:10):
Yeah, you think about that.
You said 16 years, we haven't raised the prices on the books and inflation has done whatit's done in this country.
I mean, really, this is a ministry for the exchange.
It's not just about profit margins or anything like that.
But the books and all that, they become tremendous tools in the hands of these people.
I think our audience can get involved at the cost.
(05:32):
The price tag of this trip, correct me if I'm wrong, is about $6,000.
We're looking for m
60 people who can give $100.
Did I do the math right?
I think so.
I think that's extremely affordable.
That's one of the nice things about just going on the other side of the border.
It's not super expensive, but it's super productive.
(05:54):
So we're excited about that.
Yeah, you think about you're getting really four mission trips for that price becauseyou're going to train missionaries, which impacts the mission field.
And then you're going to three places there in Mexico.
And so really, really excited for those four weeks of missions related work.
And you guys can go to uh exchangemessage.org forward slash give.
(06:16):
and can give a gift of $100 or whatever the Lord lays on your heart.
We just ask you to pray about what God would want you to give and you give that, whateverhe lays on your heart.
But 60 people, $100 each, we cover the cost of the trip and become huge blessings.
I know the way you do it, Pastor Jeff, is you don't want to be a burden to themissionaries financially by visiting.
(06:39):
That wouldn't be productive either.
So that's why we raise this money.
That's absolutely right.
That that covers the cost of the uh airfare, but it also gives me enough cash to be ableto carry down and leave with.
I never come home with any money ah and and be a blessing to our host down there.
Those those pastors are sacrificial.
(07:02):
They're living on very, very little.
We don't want to be a burden to them.
Want to be able to go down and help them.
And just so you know how I approach the whole concept of uh giving, we feel like it's ourresponsibility to let the people of God know, without the people of God, the exchange
could not be a ministry.
(07:24):
But we actually look to God himself to provide for us.
And we're just asking God to lay it on the hearts of people to be able to support thiswork of training and providing tools down in Mexico.
Yeah.
By the way, I've been a recipient of this generosity because you guys came to visit uswhen we were in Kenya.
(07:46):
And as I recall, you left a chunk of change with me and it was incredibly, incrediblygenerous.
you know, m just, mean, for a missionary, that can mean the world in terms of not just,it's not about the money, just somebody is supporting you, cares for you, loves you enough
to leave behind what's in their pocket.
(08:07):
And uh
That's pretty incredible.
Yeah, well, I am the recipient of generous uh Christians all over the United States.
And it is the giving of the people that support the exchange and love the exchange thatenables me to be able to be generous.
So uh it is a blessing to be able to be a channel to pass those funds on where they can beused.
(08:33):
And we love you guys in our audience.
You guys are incredible supporters of this.
You listening, subscribing, supporting us, writing us emails, giving towards the ministry.
That's huge.
That's what propels us.
And this ministry started as an idea in Pastor Jeff and Anna's living room and has nowgrown to what it is because of our listeners, our supporters, and the people who've been
(08:58):
here from the start.
oh
I don't I haven't told you this, but I got an email this week that a missionary inAustralia, he and his church are listening to the podcast on a weekly basis and seeing the
Lord stir them up.
And it's, I think it's great to know that we have people on the mission field that arebeing helped by the podcast themselves.
(09:24):
That's incredible.
Yeah, I'm noticing our number of listeners keeps going up.
I think now we're over 2,000 people listening to this podcast, is incredible.
We just started and haven't hit 100 episodes yet.
So I'm very, very excited for what God is doing.
so let's go ahead and go into go find invite.
(09:47):
This is one of my favorite sections of giving the exchange.
think it's Jesus.
does these three parables side by side and uh in the lead up to the parable on the weddingfeast.
And it's incredible.
He lays out a method of evangelism, a picture of evangelism that I think is really, reallyprofound.
And I've loved listening to you teach this passage.
(10:10):
So take it away.
Tell us what's going on there in the gospels.
Yeah, so this is from uh Giving the Exchange chapter one and there are three differentpictures of what we call relational evangelism.
This particular one is really uh extremely helpful on several planes.
(10:31):
I think that the thing that hits me the most is it helps me recognize the urgency of theFather, the Father wanting the guest for the son's wedding feast.
and him sending out his servants.
so sometimes I think relational evangelism can get a little bit of a bad rap because itseems like it's a little passive and I get really perturbed not with people saying that
(11:03):
about relational evangelism because I love people thinking we ought to be urgent.
get I get frustrated with people who are passive and thinking
You know, God's sovereign.
He's going to do it.
And yes, God calls people and God is working, but he chooses us and he has sent us.
We are the ones who've been sent out into the highways and the byways uh to find people.
(11:28):
And so I feel there's a real urgency here and it's not just my urgency.
It's not just I'm trying to work it up, but it's the urgency of the father who said I wantmy servants to go.
I love that.
You know, we all have a responsibility and it's the Great Commission is not optional foranybody.
(11:49):
So I do believe that, you know, using the doctrine of sovereignty to say we don't have tobe obedient to Jesus's command would be a contradiction of scripture, right?
I mean, the Bible doesn't contradict itself.
you know, it's like Charles Spurgeon said, until God puts a yellow stripe down people'sbacks, I mean, we really have to be aggressive and go and build relationships.
(12:10):
Absolutely.
And I think that in no way does that undo the working of God or the sovereignty of God.
God is the one who is uh calling people to himself.
And I actually believe the way we find the elect is by giving them the gospel.
(12:30):
If they respond to the gospel, then we know that these are the ones that God is workingin.
But we're to give the gospel to everyone indiscriminately.
Go.
into the highways he tells us in this parable.
By the way, it's Matthew 22 uh and uh the story starts with sending servants out and eachone of them being rejected.
(12:55):
The people who they invited said no and I think it's an appropriate uh observation to saythat not everyone we give the gospel to is going to
respond positively, but we can go because the father has sent us and know that some aregoing to say yes, and that we're going to see the wedding feast full as a result of our
(13:25):
being obedient.
So some of them said no.
And the father said, Look, I want you servants to go out into the highways out into theplaces where you don't know people.
And I think that when we think about relational evangelism, there are some times we canwitness to our friends.
But there are some times when we have to make friends in order to be able to witness tothem.
(13:50):
It's it's not just witnessing to the people we know.
It's literally trying to make friends everywhere we go.
Hmm.
You know, uh it's an incredible thing because the servants get these waves of rejection.
And you wonder if they start to come back and think, uh boy, what are we doing wrong?
(14:10):
Do we have to redesign the wedding invite?
Do we need a better website?
Do we need a better advertising strategy?
Obviously, none of those things, that's not what they would have been thinking, but theywould have been trying to figure out why.
And it was getting more dangerous every time they went out.
uh which is pretty incredible.
And in the lead up to this, because we know from the parables before, we know from theparable of the vineyard, they killed.
(14:37):
And so it became pretty dangerous to be a mouthpiece for God in Israel over time.
then Jesus says in the parable, the king says, we'll go way, way out there, which Ibelieve is a big uh principle of
The gospel does not discriminate.
I the gospel is for everybody, all types.
(15:00):
And it's usually the unlikely people that are going to respond to it, not the people youthink of.
Sometimes it's people on the margins that are the ones that they're going to be receptive.
It's like in India, it's the unclean, it's the, what are they called?
Yeah, the ones who aren't even in a cast.
cast.
(15:21):
Yeah, the ones who aren't even in a cast, Untouchables, they call them Untouchables.
It's those people in our societies that are going to be receptive, most likely to thegospel.
But it's for everybody, all types.
Absolutely.
I think that uh
we have to kind of strategize sometimes when it comes to going because frankly a goodbeliever is going to spend a lot of time with other believers.
(15:51):
mean that's God calls us to do that.
He calls us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together.
That uh church by the way is not listening to a sermon.
Church is being with God's people and uh and so
If we're spending a lot of time with God's people, then we know a lot of believers andsometimes we don't know a lot of unbelievers.
(16:13):
We have to be strategic about it.
I have a new puppy and you know, just like children are our people magnets, puppies areour people magnets.
And so three times now I have taken this long two mile loop with my little puppy and Ican't make that loop without
(16:36):
people stopping me and wanting to talk to the puppy.
So I, I'm just making a habit of getting to know now, what is your name?
Which, which house do you live in?
And just beginning to get to know people because I have to be strategic.
I have to work at finding people.
And that's really the second piece on here is not only do we go, but we have tostrategically find people where we're going, identify people.
(17:04):
everywhere we go and and start making lists in our minds of the people that God ispresenting to us that we could cultivate those relationships and be able to tell them
about Jesus.
We call those, we have an acronym, right?
Fans.
Could you tell us what that stands for?
Because I can't recall right now off the top of my
first one is friends and it stands F A N S.
(17:26):
So it's, it's really not that we want fans.
We just want to identify who they are.
So the first is friends and family.
Those are the people, uh, that, that we are closest to.
then, uh, associates, those are people at work.
Sometimes there are people at play on our, on our sports teams, those sorts of things.
(17:47):
So just, just acquaintances.
can fit into that A category as well.
Neighbors, uh I think of neighbors as the people who live in houses that I can see, but asI'm on a walk in my neighborhood, every one of those people are my neighbors.
uh And so recognizing that our neighbors are uh people that we can look for.
(18:13):
And then the S is for strangers.
Those are the people that we haven't met yet.
But God is sending into our lives.
This sovereign God is sending them into our lives so that we can get to know them, tellthem about Jesus.
love that and one of the things we push people towards uh in a seminar at the end, one ofthe applications, there's a 30 day challenge and there's the find five.
(18:34):
And so you want to list five people that are one of those categories, neighbors,associates, family, friends, and strangers that you've met.
And we would call that a divine appointment, by the way.
think one day we're going to do a whole episode on divine appointments.
ah But when God gives you a divine appointment with a stranger or whatnot and
(18:55):
or you meet somebody on an airplane and you start praying for those people.
mean, boy, I promise you, you pray.
I don't know when he's gonna work, but I promise you he is gonna work and he's gonna helpyou to reach those people.
And I actually got that idea that find five from a Will Galkin meeting that I had yearsago.
(19:16):
He talked about targeting 10 and I kind of decided that 10 is a little hard for me tomanage.
And so I wanted to shorten that down.
And so we're just doing fine.
Five.
have a friend who uses what he calls I three
and he really focuses on three and these are the words that he uses and the reason hecalls it I three, he said, we're going to identify those people.
(19:44):
We're going to invest in those people and then we're going to invite them to meet Jesus.
And I really love being able to put those three eyes with it so that I can have someactionable state.
You know, these, are the things I'm going to do.
I'm going to identify people this morning on my walk.
(20:05):
I met Larry and Anita and I so now I identify them.
Now I'm going to see if I can invest in that relationship with the intention of being ableto invite them to do an exchange Bible study with me.
So I think if we can put it into actionable items, it helps us.
(20:26):
Yeah, for sure, 100%.
And I think when you invest in people, people will tell you what their needs are, and youjust have to be listening well enough.
But when they identify those needs, those are our opportunities.
Last night I was taking my trash cans out, putting them on the curb, and my neighbor cameout and told me that he had hired a guy to paint the fascia board of his house, and he
(20:52):
didn't do a good job, he didn't pressure wash it, has to be repainted.
I just looked at him and said, Hey, Ray, if I have a pressure washer, I can help youpressure wash, knock it out.
can primer it together and even paint the fascia board real quick.
He's like, you do that?
And I said, yeah, I do that.
know, Ray is an atheist.
I already know that about him.
(21:13):
But if I can invest and just show love for the sake of love, mean that
that it's, there are, mean, from a puppy dog to whatever tool is in your tool bag, youknow, just leverage anything God has given you to reach out to people.
I love that word leverage.
mean, this the stuff we have the time we have, even the very talents that God has given tous.
(21:40):
They are given to us on a temporal basis and God wants us to leverage invest those thingsinto that which is eternal.
And yeah, that that's a beautiful picture of leveraging what God has given us.
to be able to make a difference in people's lives.
Yep.
Let me ask you a question on Matthew 22.
(22:02):
I've preached it, you've preached it.
One of the things that I notice is there's a statement that Jesus makes in the parableabout people who reject the offer and what it says of them.
Sometimes in Christianity when we get rejected and trying to find people, invest inpeople, when somebody says, nope, I'm not interested in you finding me, ah you know, and
(22:25):
they kind of run away.
What do you believe that's indicative of?
oh What do you believe is going on there in that person's heart?
I was just reading about a passage this morning in which the Jewish uh leaders that wereconfronting Jesus and john five didn't believe because they weren't giving glory to God or
(22:49):
seeking glory from God.
And I really believe that we need to recognize that we're just mouthpieces were sent aspeople to uh tell and invite but
ultimately it is God who does the drawing, it is God who does the working, and it is theirrelationship with God that is keeping them from it.
(23:13):
You know, the Bible says men love darkness more than light because their actions are eviland they don't want the light to shine into their lives.
I just think that that doesn't necessarily mean, by the way, that that person is nevergoing to be interested.
It's just that right this minute they're
life is focused on the temporal, the self satisfying and they're not recognizing that thereal satisfaction is found in Jesus.
(23:47):
I don't know what you think about this.
I you tell me if this is a fair statement and I'm pulling up the passage right now, but Ithink a lot of Christians struggle with rejection in terms of, you know, this is their
fear in evangelism.
And I think because rejection brings shame, know, we can think things like this and I'veat times thought things like this earlier in my Christian walk.
(24:11):
Oh, they rejected...
the gospel because nobody wants the gospel, it's hellfire and brimstone, or they rejectedme because I must have not done something right or I didn't pray enough.
ah Would it be fair to say that their rejection of the gospel is to their shame?
(24:34):
ah Is that fair?
ultimately it will be evident.
so it's not, there's no way you can say that's not fair because that's exactly what theBible says.
So yes.
Okay, yeah, I and I've told believers that, I've preached that at a church and said, look,sometimes we take the shame that's actually their shame, we take it and we put it on our
(25:04):
message or we put it on our movement.
And that's not at all true.
I think that's a lie of Satan.
That's one of the reasons he uses rejection as such a great, it's a great tool for him,rejection and deterring people from evangelism.
And what we have to remember is when somebody acts like a sinner who is not indwelt by theHoly Spirit, we shouldn't be shocked.
(25:31):
And that doesn't mean there's something wrong with us.
I'm sitting here looking at the passage and I think that sometimes we feel like we'realmost taking advantage of people by trying to sell them on our worldview or our religion.
And I love this picture.
(25:52):
Again, he sent service saying, tell those who are invited, see, I have prepared my dinner,my oxen and my fat calves.
have been slaughtered and everything is ready come to the wedding feast.
And uh you know, this is a real wedding feast that we are uh inviting people to.
And this is the best thing that we could ever uh give to people.
(26:17):
And this is not us taking advantage of people.
This is us giving them the very best that we have.
And I think if we can think of it in that
way that it will really change this view of shame uh associated with, uh you know, theytreated me shamefully, I'm embarrassed about this.
(26:38):
And then the fact is, we're trying to help people.
Yeah, I think I heard something a while ago.
was attending Shepard's conference and heard one of the speakers say, the reason thatministry can't be like a business is because we have a product nobody wants.
And I don't think that's totally untrue, but I think I would change that to say this.
(26:59):
We have a product that people initially don't know that they want, but actually down deep,they really, really want everything we're having to offer.
It's just a question of do they want something else more?
And I think what we have to offer answers all those soul needs.
They want to not be lonely.
They want to be loved.
(27:21):
They want to have purpose.
They want to have security.
They want to have all those soul needs.
And this gives them that.
They just don't, they don't know it yet.
They don't realize it.
And so just, it's pretty incredible when you look at the Gospel, you go,
This, I mean, I present it now with confidence because I know what people want.
(27:44):
I mean, I've worked enough with people that it's like, no, I know this is what they want,even if they don't know this is what they want.
And this is what they were created for.
The Bible tells me they were created in the image of God.
And this is, this is what their soul desires for it.
It's very thirsty, it's parched.
It's going to the well, looking for water day after day and always coming back, alwaysthirsty, never satisfied.
(28:08):
And finally, Jesus comes and says, I will satisfy you.
They have to want it.
They have to want it.
woman at the well was ready to reject Jesus.
um Because what she was looking for was was she was looking in all the wrong places forwhat she was looking for.
And when Jesus helped her to recognize it, it's like immediately she left her water pot.
(28:34):
mean, the very thing she came to the well for she left because she recognized No, no, Igot what I really needed.
And what I really
Right.
a beautiful picture.
It is, and I do love it.
um if we're ready to talk about inviting here, there is, I think, a faith element in thisparable of the king slaughters an ox and a fatted calf.
(29:00):
And he expects a huge, I mean, that's an incredible amount of meat.
I just went and got my cow from Colorado.
I was up in Montrose.
It is...
440 pounds and I'm not even sure it's a fatted calf.
It seems pretty lean to me, I mean 440 pounds of meat you could feed a village and then anox.
(29:21):
An ox is a bigger animal.
It's got more meat.
I think we think that we shouldn't expect many people, but God expects a lot of people tocome.
He does when we invite.
Yeah.
point.
That's, that's awesome.
I, I have always loved the word invite, because I have I was raised in an environment inwhich we went out soul winning.
(29:50):
And we you know, our whole goal was to have a conversation in which someone
was converted that day.
And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing.
I'm just saying that I felt as a young person, I'm sure it was on me, not the peopleteaching me, but I felt a major responsibility to go out and win someone, to convince
(30:13):
them, to talk them into it.
And I love the word invite because it's not on me.
My job is to invite them to the wedding feast.
It's on...
the Lord to stir that heart.
And I love working in partnership with the Lord that way.
And uh I feel like if we can imagine the wonders of what people are gaining when theyembrace Jesus, then inviting them to come and see Jesus is not difficult at all.
(30:44):
Yeah, yeah, I was just talking, there's two pastors I had extensive conversation with thisweek.
One of them, we spent an hour on the phone together.
He used to be a missionary in Tanzania, and he knew I was a missionary from Kenya.
And so we talked about that.
And then he just kind of opened up and we actually became kindred spirits at the end ofthe conversation.
We saved each other's phone numbers and he said, can we just call each other every once ina while and just encourage each other?
(31:07):
And I said, absolutely.
And I really love this guy.
I really love what God is doing through him in the church there.
in Ohio and we started talking and he said, you know what, I grew up in the same exactkind of circumstance that you just described, Jeff.
He grew up in a soul winning door knocking and he's in a church that is still stuck onthose methods.
(31:30):
And he said to me, just kind of in frustration a little bit, but not frustrated with hispeople, just frustrated with the process, that just doesn't work anymore.
So when you look,
at methods of invitation, when we apply this to our modern context, what would be themethods of invitation that would work today?
(31:53):
I think the very first thing you do is you invite them into your life.
It is, I love aiming at inviting someone to do a Bible study with me.
That seems number one, 41 % of people in the United States have said, if a friend asked meto do a Bible, to study the Bible with them, I would say yes.
(32:16):
And so I think inviting people to do the Bible study is just super effective.
But I also think that sometimes people hear that and it's like they're walking around withtheir Bible study like they were going door-to-door and So I think the very first thing we
have to do is invite people into our lives Let let them recognize that There's a personwho's going to love you and going to care for you.
(32:46):
I loved by the way your podcast with Cody that was so heartwarming
Mmm.
think that it is so apparent that what really impacted Cody was someone who cared enoughabout him to let him ask his questions, to invest time with them.
And it is very obvious just watching the two of you talk to each other, that God has givenyou a bond.
(33:12):
And I just think we have to recognize, we have to invite people into our lives.
We have to invest in them as people.
Hmm.
Yeah, I do believe you have to like people to be good at this to be effective.
shouldn't say good effective at it.
But but I think I think as well, when we talk about why, I mean, this is something Iwondered, I've never I don't think I've even asked you.
(33:38):
But I'm just wondering right now, we don't have to answer it right now.
But why do people not want to reach the people in the cubicle next to them?
and much prefer to try to reach a stranger in an interaction that's almost doomed to fail.
What are they scared of?
What's preventing them from saying, are we scared that we have to see this person everyday and we have to be confronted with this ongoing conversation or rejection every day?
(34:08):
Or do you think it's, don't want to lose my job over this and be canceled in today'sculture?
What do you think it is that we don't want to witness to our family, our friends, and ourassociates that we'd much rather witness to the S?
I don't know that I can answer that.
And I don't know that, I don't know that there is a single answer to it, but I can saythat it is a ongoing problem in many people's lives.
(34:36):
We, we hear it in training every week that people ask a question, you know, I, I don'twant to hurt the relationship and I'm thinking, yeah, but I mean, if you really care for
that person,
You have to want the best for them.
This is not about me trying to take advantage of you.
(34:58):
I really do think that there is a part of it that says we have to help that personunderstand that as they are, they are not qualified for a relationship with God.
And I think that's really hard to show people because I think
(35:19):
the average person out there believes that I think I've been good enough.
I think I might make it.
helping them recognize, you're not going to make it.
That step is hard.
And I totally get that.
I I feel that myself sometimes.
So I totally understand why people think that.
Well, and uh like I was, I had coffee with Cody just yesterday for a regular meetup and uhhe was talking about, he says something pretty profound.
(35:47):
He said, my goal is not to force people to change, it's to plant seeds.
And I think if we see it like that, that we don't have to feel like we're on a timelinewhere we have to force and cram something down somebody's throat.
but we can through the bridge of relationship plant seeds over and over and over and over.
(36:08):
And that's what God asks us to do.
And then Paul says, hey, some plant, some water, but God gives the increase.
And I think sometimes what we've done is we've taken on God's role in evangelism andtrying to make something happen where what we were supposed to do was plant seeds.
So maybe it's even a misconception of what are we supposed to do in this relationship?
(36:30):
What's our responsibility?
I have always felt like the word faith is a huge word.
We have to actually believe that God is saving people, that when I put a seed in aperson's life, that the word of God is going to produce life.
I read this morning in John 5, if they hear, they will live.
(36:55):
And those are the words of Jesus.
And if they will listen to
us tell them about Jesus, they'll be saved.
That's going to happen.
And so planting seed with a a mind of faith is critical.
It's not that I am making it happen.
(37:15):
I believe this seed is going to make a difference in that person's life.
So it's more I hear people all the time saying I, plant a lot of seed, I don't see a lotof people saved.
And I don't know that they're doing the same thing you're talking about, George.
Right, absolutely.
Yeah, and bringing people to a position of a point of crisis where they have to make adecision, they're invited.
(37:36):
And I love this parable because they come in, they come into the wedding, and still thereis one who comes in who refuses the garments.
Is that how you interpret that part of the passage?
That they were offered but they refused and then they decided, I'm gonna stick around andsee if I can sneak by anyway.
And then they were judged for that.
so.
(37:57):
It's incredible that it's God who does the judging, but it's also they have an offer fromGod himself that they have to accept or reject, and we cannot accept it or reject it for
them.
It's really between them and the Lord.
If I could do that, I would.
I'd take it for them, but no, every single person has to choose.
(38:22):
Every single person has to trust.
Here's the wonderful thing is that God is calling people to himself and that some willchoose to trust him.
Amen.
Well, I think that wraps it up.
Thank you guys so much for listening.
If you haven't subscribed to this podcast, please hit that subscribe button.
(38:43):
It really helps us.
And if there's somebody you know that would benefit from listening to these conversationsand benefit from being encouraged in their evangelism and discipleship, we just encourage
you share that with somebody you know and...
m
Also, if there's a question you have or something you'd like us to answer, you can emailme at george at exchangemessage.org.
(39:06):
That's george at exchangemessage.org.
Don't forget, a gift to the mission trips that are coming up here in a couple of weeks.
We need a total of $6,000, 60 people who can give $100 each to go and help thosemissionaries and help those three churches and the seminary in Mexico.
As always, pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forthlaborers.
(39:29):
We know we don't have a harvest problem.
We have a labor shortage and we need your help.
We need to pray together uh as Christians that God would raise up the laborers in you andin us to go out and reach our communities with the gospel.
Thank you guys so much for listening.
We love you guys and we will see you next week.
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