June 2, 2025 • 27 mins
Podcast: Gospel Talks
Hosts: George Binoka & Jeff Musgrave
Episode Date: June 3, 2025
Episode Summary:
In this stirring episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave explore the eternal significance of gospel-centered relationships. Drawing from Luke 16 and the parable of the unjust steward, they unpack Jesus’ radical call to leverage our temporal resources—time, talent, and treasure—for eternal gain. The discussion centers around the idea of “forever friends,” a term George and Jeff use to describe those whom we reach with the gospel and with whom we’ll share eternity.
They argue that gospel relationships are not only spiritually binding but also the most enduring relationships possible—outlasting circumstances, cultures, and even death. The gospel, they contend, is the ultimate “relationship retainer,” binding people together with supernatural glue.
Jeff issues a challenge from Scripture: if the world invests its resources with intensity to gain temporary returns, how much more should the sons of light pour themselves into eternal investments? They also highlight how hoarding the gospel is not merely ineffective—it’s dishonest. Faithfulness to Christ involves faithfully stewarding the gospel for others.
George offers personal stories of unlikely friendships forged through the gospel—relationships that defy natural compatibility but endure because they’re built on eternal truth. Together, George and Jeff call listeners to take risks, invest deeply, and partner in the work of disciple-making, reminding us that the only thing we take to heaven is people.
Chapter Breakdown:
00:00 – The Concept of Forever Friends
Introduction to the term “forever friends” and how the gospel preserves relationships eternally.
02:54 – Eternal Friendships in Scripture
Jeff unpacks the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16) and Jesus’ call to make friends for eternity.
05:44 – Investing in Eternal Relationships
Comparison between worldly zeal for profit and Christian investment in souls.
08:37 – Leveraging Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain
What it means to steward time, talent, and treasure with eternity in view.
11:16 – The Dishonesty of Hoarding the Gospel
Jesus calls it dishonest to withhold the gospel from others; spiritual stewardship is a matter of truthfulness.
14:30 – The Stickiness of Gospel Relationships
Once you’ve gone deep with someone spiritually, every other conversation becomes easier—gospel relationships stick.
17:16 – Taking Risks for Eternal Friendships
True friendship demands boldness; the gospel may threaten friendships, but it’s also the only way to make them eternal.
20:04 – The Transformative Power of Conversion
Conversion is miraculous, relational, and permanent—God turns strangers into family.
22:43 – Partnership in the Gospel
Spiritual friendships mature into co-laboring partnerships for the kingdom.
25:48 – The Value of Eternal Relationships
Nothing on earth is more valuable than souls; everything else we leave behind.
27:01 – New Chapter
Closing reflections and call to action: pray for laborers and consider supporting The Exchange monthly.
Support the Mission:
Partner with The Exchange to help multiply eternal relationships. For just $25/month, you can help extend the reach of gospel training and discipleship worldwide. Learn more at www.exchangetotheworld.com (or your donation link).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Menoka.
With me today is Jeff Musgrave.
He's the author and the founder of The Exchange and very excited to be talking with youguys about Forever Friends.
The Gospel is the ultimate relationship retainer.
(00:24):
And if you're not familiar with the concept of a retainer, it's like when you put anattorney on retainer,
is somebody that you keep ah forever, even if not actively in the relationship, you keep.
the gospel is this amazing thing.
What we mean is it preserves a friendship uh forever.
And now there's an aspect of this that um I've asked uh Pastor Jeff to take us throughbiblically because I'm a little scared we're gonna sound a bit like Mormons or something
(00:53):
in this whole concept of forever friends.
um So what do you see in scripture
Because I've heard you talk about this in a seminar before.
What do you see in the scripture of this concept of forever friends?
Yeah, the word that I use more uh
naturally is eternal friendships.
And I think I see that in the story of the unjust steward.
(01:16):
I don't know about you, but there are some of these parables that um it's like the truthis so deep into this strange story that it's kind of hard to extract it.
And because the story is so strange, we tend to avoid it.
I think that
story of the uh king that doesn't care or the governor that doesn't care about the widowand she just keeps coming back to him and so the unfortunate prayer that one's another one
(01:47):
that's kind of a little bit ah it's so difficult that maybe we don't go back to it asoften as we ought to this this parable of the unjust steward is is a difficult one and so
uh
I think we've talked about it some in the past.
I'm not going to go into the parable itself, but I did want to go into Jesus' summary ofthe parable because I feel like there's some truth in that summary that is really
(02:16):
powerful.
And ultimately, he tells us to use the um things of this world to be able to leverage into
these eternal friendships that you and I are talking about.
And so he's literally talking about using our temporal time, our temporal talents, ourtemporal treasures, and leveraging it all to be able to effectively make eternal
(02:45):
friendships.
So let me back up a little bit and say this first statement that uh Jesus made that Ithink ought to just
hit us in the core.
It's kind of like one of those punches that hit you in the solar plex and for a moment youcan't even breathe.
I think this is one of those statements that ought to do that to us.
He says the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation thanthe sons of light.
(03:14):
Now last week we were talking about being the light of the world and that we are the sonsof light.
and that maybe sometimes we're not investing as well as we ought.
And what Jesus is saying in this statement is that the people of this world who areworking really hard to pad their bank accounts, literally that's what they want.
(03:39):
They want the bank account to grow and so they're investing everything.
They're leveraging their life into that uh temporal bank account.
And he says, now what I want you to be doing is I want you to be leveraging your life intothat, which is really valuable.
And then later in the verses, he tells us that's those eternal friendships.
(04:04):
And I, I just think that it's uh really an indictment on us that he looks at us and says,you know, you're, you're unsaved, um, greedy counterparts are doing a better job.
at what they do than you are about what I've called you to do.
This is so true.
mean, if you know anything about the business world or Wall Street or anything like that,I mean, they are intense.
(04:31):
They are absolutely intense people.
They work crazy long hours.
um They are dedicated to study.
They are dedicated to research.
They are dedicated to understanding what's the best way on earth.
How are we going to most effectively grow our value?
um And sometimes you just don't see that intensity with Christians.
(04:58):
We um can be a little lackluster about our zeal to see people come to Christ.
it's like, mean, hold on.
mean, if that guy is gonna leverage, you watch a show like The Shark Tank, you hearstories about um people leverage their house.
(05:19):
people leverage their 401k, people sell everything and go into tremendous debt over abusiness idea that then takes off to make something like as dumb as a hairband, you know
what I mean?
um So if somebody can leverage themselves to that point for a business idea, why couldn'twe leverage ourselves to that point for eternity?
(05:42):
And I'm not talking about going and.
selling your house or being in debt or anything like that.
this is not what I'm advocating for.
I'm just saying we could be a little bit more intense about how we pursue the lost.
Absolutely.
um When I first started doing evangelism training in churches, I talked to some friendswho worked in the financial world and I just asked them, how long did it take you to make
(06:09):
the preparation to become a good financial advisor and to be able to sell people products?
repeatedly, mean, the shortest time period that I heard
was three to four months of intensive study.
Some people, of course, went to college and spend an entire four years building a degree.
(06:33):
And so obviously people are investing a lot of time.
And then I find uh sometimes pastors have a hard time encouraging their people to spend aweekend uh studying how to become a good person who can share the gospel with people.
And I'm not saying that to complain.
I just believe that when Jesus says the sons of this world are more shrewd than the sonsof light, he knew what he was talking about and he is right.
(07:02):
We are negligent in regard to this.
Right, yeah, I think so.
I the exchange online, the course is 19 hours.
I mean, what's 19 hours?
I mean, which stockbroker doesn't spend 19 hours just reading quarterly financialstatements from the companies they're invested in?
(07:23):
You know, and it's one of those things that it's, when you look at what um God asks us todo to prepare ourselves to be effective,
for the Great Commission, which is something he's asked all believers to preparethemselves for, it pales in comparison to some of the work that the secular world does to
accomplish what they're trying to accomplish.
I mean, it's nothing.
it is and then here Jesus in the next verse, this is by the way Luke chapter 16, now I'min verse 9, or excuse me, yeah in verse 9, he says I tell you and then he, this is
(07:55):
literally Jesus saying this is what I want you to leverage your life for.
Make friends for yourselves and then I'm gonna skip the means for just a moment so that wecan get the
the total and he goes on and he says make friends for yourselves that they may receive youinto eternal dwellings.
(08:19):
So that's where that eternal friendships come from, those forever friends and literallywhat God is saying is just like those people are investing their entire life, they're
leveraging everything to build their bank account, I want you to leverage
everything to build the kingdom of heaven with souls.
(08:42):
And then he says by means of unrighteous wealth so that when it fails.
And what he's saying is God has made us stewards of financial wealth and by financialwealth, I'm sorry, I said financial wealth, I meant the exact opposite.
(09:04):
He's given us uh stewardship over
this temporal wealth and by temporal wealth I'm going to use the Randy Alcorn tease, ourtime, our talents, and our treasure.
So it's the whole of us.
Everything that we have is in the physical realm, it's temporal.
And what he wants us to do is he wants us to take the temporal, time, talents, treasure,and he wants us to leverage it for the eternal and the value of eternal
(09:33):
is these eternal friendships, these relationships of people that if you think about itthis way, if we were to look on earth, so if we're going to try to take something from
earth to heaven with us that is valuable, we're investing here to live there.
What is valuable here that we would want to take to heaven with us?
(09:55):
And then we can look at it the other way around.
What was valuable enough on earth that Jesus was willing to leave heaven to come down toearth to purchase?
And of course, we know the answer to that.
It's eternal souls.
And that's what God wants us to invest our lives in.
I love that.
I've never thought about it exactly that way, that there was value, not just pity, butthere was value that compelled Jesus to come down from heaven and come here and die for
(10:27):
people.
the math on that one wasn't totally upside down, you know?
um So, I think that's incredible.
um know, and I think of, um you know,
leveraging what we have for relationships, that's I think why God gave us the time, thetreasure, the talents He did.
(10:48):
I think He didn't give them to us just for them to leverage them for us.
think the Jeep He gave you or the fishing rod He gave you or the gun He gave you or thebasketball He gave you or the coaching ability He gave you, whatever it is, He gave it to
you to be leveraged for the Kingdom.
And instead of looking at what I have been saying,
you know, how can I use this for me?
(11:10):
We look at what we have and say, now what is God wanting me to do with all this?
How am I supposed to leverage this?
Absolutely and it's interesting the word that Jesus uses to describe that he says one whois faithful in very little that's talking about this um talents these times that I this
time that I have it's very little he says he will also be faithful in much and then hegoes on he says the one who is dishonest in very little and I that word dishonest uh
(11:39):
strikes me because literally what he's saying is if you and I are not investing
into this eternal kingdom, then we're actually living a dishonest life, we have somethingextremely valuable.
And we are not honestly striving to help others to be able to have it.
It's, it's, it's interesting that he uses that word dishonest.
(12:01):
So to hoard it is to be dishonest.
It's like it's burying something, it's putting it under, shoving it under the carpet andsaying, I don't wanna talk about this.
It's being less than transparent about what Jesus has given us, which is amazing thatJesus would, I've never heard that, I've never thought about that from this passage
before, is you're actually living a lie.
(12:24):
That's incredible.
we have eternal blessings in in our own life and we are living as if we don't and thatthat's dishonest.
That's living a lie.
He goes on to say, if you have not been faithful in unrighteous wealth, this this temporalworld that you live in, then who will entrust you with true riches and
(12:50):
This is a little difficult, but literally those were the word true riches goes right backto those eternal friends.
So the real value, the real true riches that we can invest in today is the eternal soulsof the people around us.
This makes total sense.
(13:10):
Jesus, I'm catching this in real time right now.
So Jesus is saying, you've been a dishonest broker with the things of eternity.
Why would I entrust you with more?
I mean, you know, I mean, that's kind of implied here, isn't it?
Because you look at some people who say, well, I never get any opportunities or I've neverbeen effective or, you know, it's like, well, hold on, hold on.
(13:35):
Can we all look in the mirror and literally take a second to say, have we always beenhonest brokers of the gospel and been stewards of the eternal wealth that was given to us?
Do we expect all of a sudden to be catapulted into effectiveness in evangelism withouthaving taken the steps to be honest brokers of the gospel message?
I think that's a real call for Jesus in this passage.
(13:57):
He's telling us, look in the mirror, what have you been doing with what I've given you?
I think it's interesting to use the phrase look in the mirror because the very nextphrase, this is verse 12, he just keeps adding on top of here and it keeps getting more
more personal.
He says, if you have not been faithful and that which is another's, who will give you thatwhich is your own?
(14:18):
So the others, when I look in the mirror, if I am honest, I have to say I am breathingtoday because Jesus gave me my breath.
I am wearing clothes today because Jesus gave me my clothes.
I'm standing in a bathroom that I call my own because Jesus gave me a house.
(14:42):
um Everything that I have is his.
But what he is saying is that you and I have the ability to gain something totally our ownin eternity.
And that something
which is true riches, these are the words that he uses, is these eternal friendships.
(15:03):
So I wanted to kind of uh shift gears here a little bit.
We're talking about the biblical concept of this relationship retainer, the gospel, andforever friendships or eternal friendships.
And not only is it a biblical concept, but it is practical in that it
it really is effective.
(15:24):
The gospel is the ultimate relationship retainer.
And I just thought you've made several really close friendships in the last three yearssince you've been home from Africa.
and none of those friendships, and I've, just standing back watching none of thosefriendships I look at and think, you know, George has everything in common with those
(15:45):
people.
It's the thing that you have in common with them.
is the gospel.
took the gospel to them.
You literally made friends through the gospel and those friends are now eternalfriendships.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think the stickiest subject that you'll ever encounter in a relationship withanother person is talking about the things of eternity, talking about the gospel, talking
(16:08):
about their soul needs.
And once you've gone through that together, you can easily go through anything together.
And you will ...
you will learn to love the things that they love and like the things that they like justbecause you're kind of almost not in a negative way stuck with each other.
(16:29):
Meaning when I say sticky, that's what we call community in the church, right?
So it's like the church is supposed to be kind of a sticky place where it's kind of hardfor people to leave because of that community relationship aspect, not because anybody's
making them.
And so what I've seen the gospel become the ultimate
relationship retainer is, you know, so here we've talked about the things of eternity andthe things that matter most.
(16:57):
Now everything else is just gravy.
And so it's like it sticks you together, it binds you together.
You know, because you've gone that deep, you can go into any other subject together.
You can have any other kind of conversation.
I mean, I'm sitting with Cody this week, you know, we've had all these conversations aboutthe gospel and this week we're having conversations about
know, Well, we can easily have that conversation.
(17:20):
We've already had the conversation about atheism and God and Mormonism and all thosethings.
I mean, that's a walk in the park.
It's not necessarily every aspect of it is a walk in the park, but I mean, comparatively,it's a walk in the park.
and because you have this common bond of the gospel, you are brothers and sisters inChrist.
And now, I mean, that's it.
(17:40):
You have that person.
Whether, however long you thought you wanted to have them or not, fawn.
called me this week from Africa.
know, Ben, um Ben Spencer in Colorado, who was here at GCU and went back to Colorado towork in his father's business, is buying me birthday gifts or buys me a Christmas present
and I buy him presents and we message each other all the time and sometimes call and talkwhen he's got long drives between fixing people's fireplaces.
(18:08):
I mean, it's absolutely incredible.
And some of these guys, I look at them and I go, I know.
Now we have to be friends forever, which is great, but it's that stickiness of the gospel,it's the stickiness of church community.
One of the things that I heard at the beginning of what you started to say is that thegospel is a make or break issue when it comes to relationships.
(18:30):
I've actually heard people say, know, I am afraid to give the gospel to my friend becauseI'm afraid I might lose the friendship.
And I think what I'm hearing you say is you got to be willing to take that risk becauseyou're never going to have an eternal friendship without taking that risk.
Well, think about it in terms of the analogy you just gave us so beautifully from thatpassage.
(18:52):
It's you are withholding eternal value from them and not having that conversation.
What more could bind you together forever more strongly than pointing them to JesusChrist?
I mean, I heard of a pastor in Canada who had a congregation full of people that he hadwon to Christ.
Just he was an incredible relationship builder.
(19:14):
I think you know him, he's the president of Faith Baptist Bible College and yeah, JimTillotson.
Jim Tillotson came to our church, preached one of our missions conferences.
He talked about how one day his secretary walked into his office and said, hey, somebodyjust dropped off the title to a brand new F-154 truck and here are the keys.
It's for you.
It's anonymous.
As somebody from the Congress, they're just so thankful for your ministry.
(19:37):
It's not that that...
material thing is the goal of that relationship at all.
It's not.
And if it was, Jim would have never gotten that truck.
But Jim getting that truck is a reflection of how these forever friendships around thegospel is the most valuable kind of friendship anybody in the world can find.
If you can find somebody, and if you can be this type of person, that will point you toJesus and show you the gospel and show you that real treasure, my goodness, you'll never
(20:02):
forget that person.
um And I mean, it's like,
I told you a couple podcast episodes ago, that guy from Mormonism, he's sitting there atthe end of an awkward conversation.
We go home, he calls me up and Cody's in the car and he says, hey, how 20 years he's beenwith his bishop, 10 years, I don't know, however long he's been with his bishop in
Mormonism, he goes, you've talked with me more about Jesus Christ in the last hour than mybishop has in the last 10 years.
(20:26):
And he said, thank you, you're doing a great job, keep doing what you're doing.
That's somebody who doesn't right now, who isn't right now believing exactly what webelieve, you know?
I think that's, boy, you could be in people's lives in the most significant way possible.
uh This is like, you want to make a difference.
(20:48):
This is what you do.
Escape insignificance, impact eternity by pointing people to Jesus Christ.
Well, that sounds like a good podcast title escape insignificance by investing your lifein the gospel.
That's, that's awesome.
What we'll give him credit.
um We've been talking about the fact that the gospel is the ultimate relationshipretainer.
(21:15):
And here's why I think that is uh the gospel.
When embraced,
by someone that God is calling to himself uh is what we call conversion.
mean, person, conversion is not, I'm going to stop having this worldview and start havingthat worldview.
(21:38):
Conversion is not, I'm going to stop being this religion and start being that religion.
Conversion is an instantaneous, miraculous,
transformation.
It literally is God taking someone and transferring them from the kingdom of darkness intothe kingdom of light.
(22:00):
He makes them a new creation.
He calls it a new birth.
So literally they were children of the devil, John chapter 8 verse 44, and he makes themchildren of God, John chapter 1 verse 12.
I mean, literally, is you and I are sitting across the living room from a man who doesn'tknow Jesus, and we are totally unrelated to him.
(22:30):
And the moment God gives him conversion as he places his trust in Jesus Christ, thatinstantaneous moment, we are now brothers.
And that's the source
of this uh eternal friendship is that that person has been transformed.
(22:50):
It's miraculous.
It's supernatural.
It's something only God can do.
That's why we invest into this because that's what life is about.
Life on earth is about building life in heaven.
uh
you're your brothers with that person and right now you have that close relationship withthem because you are kind of the primary caregiver.
(23:16):
You're the spiritual parent so to speak but eventually and you're watching this happenwith some of them.
The podcast you had with Cody certainly shows that you're becoming partners in thisbusiness of the kingdom that God has called you to.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
I think that's great way to put it.
I love that word, partnership.
(23:36):
Now you go from, know, hey, I'm kind of your shepherd or I'm leading you through aprocess.
I'm walking ahead of you to, um now we're walking alongside of each other.
Now that's that full circle of ministry kind of process.
That's actually the stage you're in now because, you know, I got to sit at the
(23:58):
exchange board meeting and I'm sitting around looking at people that we've writtenarticles about, how about you and Anna won them to Christ with the exchange Bible study.
I'm looking at Mary Ellen and I'm looking at Michael and I'm looking at your boys even,Jonathan and Josh and all these people sitting around and I it's incredible the long-term
(24:19):
dividends.
of this relationship and partnership um that it becomes.
I don't know you want to speak to that at all, what you've seen God do there.
I just think that's what life is about is investing, literally leveraging everything wehave physically, temporally time, talents, treasures into seeing those lives transformed
(24:45):
by the gospel.
um I told you I was going to read this quote and I got to go looking for it.
Will Gawken has said that discipleship
is the intentional leveraging of all that I am so that others may become more like JesusChrist.
And I think we could say that to this regard, disciple making is the intentionalleveraging of all that I am so that others can spend eternity in heaven with me.
(25:14):
I mean that's literally what disciple making is all about.
Yes, amen, amen.
um Which you don't take anything else with you when you leave this world.
You could take other people.
more valuable.
mean, you listening to you describe that table at the exchange board meeting and lettingme look around that room in my mind's eye and see those people.
(25:40):
And I will just tell you, there is nothing more valuable to me in my life than the peoplethat I've been able to influence for Christ.
Yeah, amen, amen.
Well, um that's been a tremendous podcast episode and uh forever friends and the eternalrelationships that God gives us.
um Thank you so much, brother.
(26:02):
um Thank you guys for listening and pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvestthat he would send forth laborers that would go and find forever friends, people that were
gonna take with us to heaven.
And there's nothing else that you're gonna take with you.
There's nothing else you're gonna wanna take with you.
This is the only thing of value in this world that you can take with you.
The furniture is better in heaven, the roads are better in heaven, the healthcare isbetter in heaven, the money is better in heaven.
(26:26):
And so really, all that we're here for and everything that's been given to us is to beleveraged for these forever friends.
And so pray with us as we pray to Lord of the harvest and be praying for what God might doif you want a gift towards the exchange and its needs to continue expanding.
We're looking for some people who can be $25 a month
(26:46):
donors, regularly monthly donors for the price of a pizza and help us expand our missionand our outreach to getting more people, uh getting the exchange in front of more people.
We love you guys and we're praying for you.
We'll see you next week.
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Menoka.
With me today is Jeff Musgrave.
He's the author and the founder of The Exchange and very excited to be talking with youguys about Forever Friends.
The Gospel is the ultimate relationship retainer.
(00:24):
And if you're not familiar with the concept of a retainer, it's like when you put anattorney on retainer,
is somebody that you keep ah forever, even if not actively in the relationship, you keep.
the gospel is this amazing thing.
What we mean is it preserves a friendship uh forever.
And now there's an aspect of this that um I've asked uh Pastor Jeff to take us throughbiblically because I'm a little scared we're gonna sound a bit like Mormons or something
(00:53):
in this whole concept of forever friends.
um So what do you see in scripture
Because I've heard you talk about this in a seminar before.
What do you see in the scripture of this concept of forever friends?
Yeah, the word that I use more uh
naturally is eternal friendships.
And I think I see that in the story of the unjust steward.
(01:16):
I don't know about you, but there are some of these parables that um it's like the truthis so deep into this strange story that it's kind of hard to extract it.
And because the story is so strange, we tend to avoid it.
I think that
story of the uh king that doesn't care or the governor that doesn't care about the widowand she just keeps coming back to him and so the unfortunate prayer that one's another one
(01:47):
that's kind of a little bit ah it's so difficult that maybe we don't go back to it asoften as we ought to this this parable of the unjust steward is is a difficult one and so
uh
I think we've talked about it some in the past.
I'm not going to go into the parable itself, but I did want to go into Jesus' summary ofthe parable because I feel like there's some truth in that summary that is really
(02:16):
powerful.
And ultimately, he tells us to use the um things of this world to be able to leverage into
these eternal friendships that you and I are talking about.
And so he's literally talking about using our temporal time, our temporal talents, ourtemporal treasures, and leveraging it all to be able to effectively make eternal
(02:45):
friendships.
So let me back up a little bit and say this first statement that uh Jesus made that Ithink ought to just
hit us in the core.
It's kind of like one of those punches that hit you in the solar plex and for a moment youcan't even breathe.
I think this is one of those statements that ought to do that to us.
He says the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation thanthe sons of light.
(03:14):
Now last week we were talking about being the light of the world and that we are the sonsof light.
and that maybe sometimes we're not investing as well as we ought.
And what Jesus is saying in this statement is that the people of this world who areworking really hard to pad their bank accounts, literally that's what they want.
(03:39):
They want the bank account to grow and so they're investing everything.
They're leveraging their life into that uh temporal bank account.
And he says, now what I want you to be doing is I want you to be leveraging your life intothat, which is really valuable.
And then later in the verses, he tells us that's those eternal friendships.
(04:04):
And I, I just think that it's uh really an indictment on us that he looks at us and says,you know, you're, you're unsaved, um, greedy counterparts are doing a better job.
at what they do than you are about what I've called you to do.
This is so true.
mean, if you know anything about the business world or Wall Street or anything like that,I mean, they are intense.
(04:31):
They are absolutely intense people.
They work crazy long hours.
um They are dedicated to study.
They are dedicated to research.
They are dedicated to understanding what's the best way on earth.
How are we going to most effectively grow our value?
um And sometimes you just don't see that intensity with Christians.
(04:58):
We um can be a little lackluster about our zeal to see people come to Christ.
it's like, mean, hold on.
mean, if that guy is gonna leverage, you watch a show like The Shark Tank, you hearstories about um people leverage their house.
(05:19):
people leverage their 401k, people sell everything and go into tremendous debt over abusiness idea that then takes off to make something like as dumb as a hairband, you know
what I mean?
um So if somebody can leverage themselves to that point for a business idea, why couldn'twe leverage ourselves to that point for eternity?
(05:42):
And I'm not talking about going and.
selling your house or being in debt or anything like that.
this is not what I'm advocating for.
I'm just saying we could be a little bit more intense about how we pursue the lost.
Absolutely.
um When I first started doing evangelism training in churches, I talked to some friendswho worked in the financial world and I just asked them, how long did it take you to make
(06:09):
the preparation to become a good financial advisor and to be able to sell people products?
repeatedly, mean, the shortest time period that I heard
was three to four months of intensive study.
Some people, of course, went to college and spend an entire four years building a degree.
(06:33):
And so obviously people are investing a lot of time.
And then I find uh sometimes pastors have a hard time encouraging their people to spend aweekend uh studying how to become a good person who can share the gospel with people.
And I'm not saying that to complain.
I just believe that when Jesus says the sons of this world are more shrewd than the sonsof light, he knew what he was talking about and he is right.
(07:02):
We are negligent in regard to this.
Right, yeah, I think so.
I the exchange online, the course is 19 hours.
I mean, what's 19 hours?
I mean, which stockbroker doesn't spend 19 hours just reading quarterly financialstatements from the companies they're invested in?
(07:23):
You know, and it's one of those things that it's, when you look at what um God asks us todo to prepare ourselves to be effective,
for the Great Commission, which is something he's asked all believers to preparethemselves for, it pales in comparison to some of the work that the secular world does to
accomplish what they're trying to accomplish.
I mean, it's nothing.
it is and then here Jesus in the next verse, this is by the way Luke chapter 16, now I'min verse 9, or excuse me, yeah in verse 9, he says I tell you and then he, this is
(07:55):
literally Jesus saying this is what I want you to leverage your life for.
Make friends for yourselves and then I'm gonna skip the means for just a moment so that wecan get the
the total and he goes on and he says make friends for yourselves that they may receive youinto eternal dwellings.
(08:19):
So that's where that eternal friendships come from, those forever friends and literallywhat God is saying is just like those people are investing their entire life, they're
leveraging everything to build their bank account, I want you to leverage
everything to build the kingdom of heaven with souls.
(08:42):
And then he says by means of unrighteous wealth so that when it fails.
And what he's saying is God has made us stewards of financial wealth and by financialwealth, I'm sorry, I said financial wealth, I meant the exact opposite.
(09:04):
He's given us uh stewardship over
this temporal wealth and by temporal wealth I'm going to use the Randy Alcorn tease, ourtime, our talents, and our treasure.
So it's the whole of us.
Everything that we have is in the physical realm, it's temporal.
And what he wants us to do is he wants us to take the temporal, time, talents, treasure,and he wants us to leverage it for the eternal and the value of eternal
(09:33):
is these eternal friendships, these relationships of people that if you think about itthis way, if we were to look on earth, so if we're going to try to take something from
earth to heaven with us that is valuable, we're investing here to live there.
What is valuable here that we would want to take to heaven with us?
(09:55):
And then we can look at it the other way around.
What was valuable enough on earth that Jesus was willing to leave heaven to come down toearth to purchase?
And of course, we know the answer to that.
It's eternal souls.
And that's what God wants us to invest our lives in.
I love that.
I've never thought about it exactly that way, that there was value, not just pity, butthere was value that compelled Jesus to come down from heaven and come here and die for
(10:27):
people.
the math on that one wasn't totally upside down, you know?
um So, I think that's incredible.
um know, and I think of, um you know,
leveraging what we have for relationships, that's I think why God gave us the time, thetreasure, the talents He did.
(10:48):
I think He didn't give them to us just for them to leverage them for us.
think the Jeep He gave you or the fishing rod He gave you or the gun He gave you or thebasketball He gave you or the coaching ability He gave you, whatever it is, He gave it to
you to be leveraged for the Kingdom.
And instead of looking at what I have been saying,
you know, how can I use this for me?
(11:10):
We look at what we have and say, now what is God wanting me to do with all this?
How am I supposed to leverage this?
Absolutely and it's interesting the word that Jesus uses to describe that he says one whois faithful in very little that's talking about this um talents these times that I this
time that I have it's very little he says he will also be faithful in much and then hegoes on he says the one who is dishonest in very little and I that word dishonest uh
(11:39):
strikes me because literally what he's saying is if you and I are not investing
into this eternal kingdom, then we're actually living a dishonest life, we have somethingextremely valuable.
And we are not honestly striving to help others to be able to have it.
It's, it's, it's interesting that he uses that word dishonest.
(12:01):
So to hoard it is to be dishonest.
It's like it's burying something, it's putting it under, shoving it under the carpet andsaying, I don't wanna talk about this.
It's being less than transparent about what Jesus has given us, which is amazing thatJesus would, I've never heard that, I've never thought about that from this passage
before, is you're actually living a lie.
(12:24):
That's incredible.
we have eternal blessings in in our own life and we are living as if we don't and thatthat's dishonest.
That's living a lie.
He goes on to say, if you have not been faithful in unrighteous wealth, this this temporalworld that you live in, then who will entrust you with true riches and
(12:50):
This is a little difficult, but literally those were the word true riches goes right backto those eternal friends.
So the real value, the real true riches that we can invest in today is the eternal soulsof the people around us.
This makes total sense.
(13:10):
Jesus, I'm catching this in real time right now.
So Jesus is saying, you've been a dishonest broker with the things of eternity.
Why would I entrust you with more?
I mean, you know, I mean, that's kind of implied here, isn't it?
Because you look at some people who say, well, I never get any opportunities or I've neverbeen effective or, you know, it's like, well, hold on, hold on.
(13:35):
Can we all look in the mirror and literally take a second to say, have we always beenhonest brokers of the gospel and been stewards of the eternal wealth that was given to us?
Do we expect all of a sudden to be catapulted into effectiveness in evangelism withouthaving taken the steps to be honest brokers of the gospel message?
I think that's a real call for Jesus in this passage.
(13:57):
He's telling us, look in the mirror, what have you been doing with what I've given you?
I think it's interesting to use the phrase look in the mirror because the very nextphrase, this is verse 12, he just keeps adding on top of here and it keeps getting more
more personal.
He says, if you have not been faithful and that which is another's, who will give you thatwhich is your own?
(14:18):
So the others, when I look in the mirror, if I am honest, I have to say I am breathingtoday because Jesus gave me my breath.
I am wearing clothes today because Jesus gave me my clothes.
I'm standing in a bathroom that I call my own because Jesus gave me a house.
(14:42):
um Everything that I have is his.
But what he is saying is that you and I have the ability to gain something totally our ownin eternity.
And that something
which is true riches, these are the words that he uses, is these eternal friendships.
(15:03):
So I wanted to kind of uh shift gears here a little bit.
We're talking about the biblical concept of this relationship retainer, the gospel, andforever friendships or eternal friendships.
And not only is it a biblical concept, but it is practical in that it
it really is effective.
(15:24):
The gospel is the ultimate relationship retainer.
And I just thought you've made several really close friendships in the last three yearssince you've been home from Africa.
and none of those friendships, and I've, just standing back watching none of thosefriendships I look at and think, you know, George has everything in common with those
(15:45):
people.
It's the thing that you have in common with them.
is the gospel.
took the gospel to them.
You literally made friends through the gospel and those friends are now eternalfriendships.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think the stickiest subject that you'll ever encounter in a relationship withanother person is talking about the things of eternity, talking about the gospel, talking
(16:08):
about their soul needs.
And once you've gone through that together, you can easily go through anything together.
And you will ...
you will learn to love the things that they love and like the things that they like justbecause you're kind of almost not in a negative way stuck with each other.
(16:29):
Meaning when I say sticky, that's what we call community in the church, right?
So it's like the church is supposed to be kind of a sticky place where it's kind of hardfor people to leave because of that community relationship aspect, not because anybody's
making them.
And so what I've seen the gospel become the ultimate
relationship retainer is, you know, so here we've talked about the things of eternity andthe things that matter most.
(16:57):
Now everything else is just gravy.
And so it's like it sticks you together, it binds you together.
You know, because you've gone that deep, you can go into any other subject together.
You can have any other kind of conversation.
I mean, I'm sitting with Cody this week, you know, we've had all these conversations aboutthe gospel and this week we're having conversations about
know, Well, we can easily have that conversation.
(17:20):
We've already had the conversation about atheism and God and Mormonism and all thosethings.
I mean, that's a walk in the park.
It's not necessarily every aspect of it is a walk in the park, but I mean, comparatively,it's a walk in the park.
and because you have this common bond of the gospel, you are brothers and sisters inChrist.
And now, I mean, that's it.
(17:40):
You have that person.
Whether, however long you thought you wanted to have them or not, fawn.
called me this week from Africa.
know, Ben, um Ben Spencer in Colorado, who was here at GCU and went back to Colorado towork in his father's business, is buying me birthday gifts or buys me a Christmas present
and I buy him presents and we message each other all the time and sometimes call and talkwhen he's got long drives between fixing people's fireplaces.
(18:08):
I mean, it's absolutely incredible.
And some of these guys, I look at them and I go, I know.
Now we have to be friends forever, which is great, but it's that stickiness of the gospel,it's the stickiness of church community.
One of the things that I heard at the beginning of what you started to say is that thegospel is a make or break issue when it comes to relationships.
(18:30):
I've actually heard people say, know, I am afraid to give the gospel to my friend becauseI'm afraid I might lose the friendship.
And I think what I'm hearing you say is you got to be willing to take that risk becauseyou're never going to have an eternal friendship without taking that risk.
Well, think about it in terms of the analogy you just gave us so beautifully from thatpassage.
(18:52):
It's you are withholding eternal value from them and not having that conversation.
What more could bind you together forever more strongly than pointing them to JesusChrist?
I mean, I heard of a pastor in Canada who had a congregation full of people that he hadwon to Christ.
Just he was an incredible relationship builder.
(19:14):
I think you know him, he's the president of Faith Baptist Bible College and yeah, JimTillotson.
Jim Tillotson came to our church, preached one of our missions conferences.
He talked about how one day his secretary walked into his office and said, hey, somebodyjust dropped off the title to a brand new F-154 truck and here are the keys.
It's for you.
It's anonymous.
As somebody from the Congress, they're just so thankful for your ministry.
(19:37):
It's not that that...
material thing is the goal of that relationship at all.
It's not.
And if it was, Jim would have never gotten that truck.
But Jim getting that truck is a reflection of how these forever friendships around thegospel is the most valuable kind of friendship anybody in the world can find.
If you can find somebody, and if you can be this type of person, that will point you toJesus and show you the gospel and show you that real treasure, my goodness, you'll never
(20:02):
forget that person.
um And I mean, it's like,
I told you a couple podcast episodes ago, that guy from Mormonism, he's sitting there atthe end of an awkward conversation.
We go home, he calls me up and Cody's in the car and he says, hey, how 20 years he's beenwith his bishop, 10 years, I don't know, however long he's been with his bishop in
Mormonism, he goes, you've talked with me more about Jesus Christ in the last hour than mybishop has in the last 10 years.
(20:26):
And he said, thank you, you're doing a great job, keep doing what you're doing.
That's somebody who doesn't right now, who isn't right now believing exactly what webelieve, you know?
I think that's, boy, you could be in people's lives in the most significant way possible.
uh This is like, you want to make a difference.
(20:48):
This is what you do.
Escape insignificance, impact eternity by pointing people to Jesus Christ.
Well, that sounds like a good podcast title escape insignificance by investing your lifein the gospel.
That's, that's awesome.
What we'll give him credit.
um We've been talking about the fact that the gospel is the ultimate relationshipretainer.
(21:15):
And here's why I think that is uh the gospel.
When embraced,
by someone that God is calling to himself uh is what we call conversion.
mean, person, conversion is not, I'm going to stop having this worldview and start havingthat worldview.
(21:38):
Conversion is not, I'm going to stop being this religion and start being that religion.
Conversion is an instantaneous, miraculous,
transformation.
It literally is God taking someone and transferring them from the kingdom of darkness intothe kingdom of light.
(22:00):
He makes them a new creation.
He calls it a new birth.
So literally they were children of the devil, John chapter 8 verse 44, and he makes themchildren of God, John chapter 1 verse 12.
I mean, literally, is you and I are sitting across the living room from a man who doesn'tknow Jesus, and we are totally unrelated to him.
(22:30):
And the moment God gives him conversion as he places his trust in Jesus Christ, thatinstantaneous moment, we are now brothers.
And that's the source
of this uh eternal friendship is that that person has been transformed.
(22:50):
It's miraculous.
It's supernatural.
It's something only God can do.
That's why we invest into this because that's what life is about.
Life on earth is about building life in heaven.
uh
you're your brothers with that person and right now you have that close relationship withthem because you are kind of the primary caregiver.
(23:16):
You're the spiritual parent so to speak but eventually and you're watching this happenwith some of them.
The podcast you had with Cody certainly shows that you're becoming partners in thisbusiness of the kingdom that God has called you to.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
I think that's great way to put it.
I love that word, partnership.
(23:36):
Now you go from, know, hey, I'm kind of your shepherd or I'm leading you through aprocess.
I'm walking ahead of you to, um now we're walking alongside of each other.
Now that's that full circle of ministry kind of process.
That's actually the stage you're in now because, you know, I got to sit at the
(23:58):
exchange board meeting and I'm sitting around looking at people that we've writtenarticles about, how about you and Anna won them to Christ with the exchange Bible study.
I'm looking at Mary Ellen and I'm looking at Michael and I'm looking at your boys even,Jonathan and Josh and all these people sitting around and I it's incredible the long-term
(24:19):
dividends.
of this relationship and partnership um that it becomes.
I don't know you want to speak to that at all, what you've seen God do there.
I just think that's what life is about is investing, literally leveraging everything wehave physically, temporally time, talents, treasures into seeing those lives transformed
(24:45):
by the gospel.
um I told you I was going to read this quote and I got to go looking for it.
Will Gawken has said that discipleship
is the intentional leveraging of all that I am so that others may become more like JesusChrist.
And I think we could say that to this regard, disciple making is the intentionalleveraging of all that I am so that others can spend eternity in heaven with me.
(25:14):
I mean that's literally what disciple making is all about.
Yes, amen, amen.
um Which you don't take anything else with you when you leave this world.
You could take other people.
more valuable.
mean, you listening to you describe that table at the exchange board meeting and lettingme look around that room in my mind's eye and see those people.
(25:40):
And I will just tell you, there is nothing more valuable to me in my life than the peoplethat I've been able to influence for Christ.
Yeah, amen, amen.
Well, um that's been a tremendous podcast episode and uh forever friends and the eternalrelationships that God gives us.
um Thank you so much, brother.
(26:02):
um Thank you guys for listening and pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvestthat he would send forth laborers that would go and find forever friends, people that were
gonna take with us to heaven.
And there's nothing else that you're gonna take with you.
There's nothing else you're gonna wanna take with you.
This is the only thing of value in this world that you can take with you.
The furniture is better in heaven, the roads are better in heaven, the healthcare isbetter in heaven, the money is better in heaven.
(26:26):
And so really, all that we're here for and everything that's been given to us is to beleveraged for these forever friends.
And so pray with us as we pray to Lord of the harvest and be praying for what God might doif you want a gift towards the exchange and its needs to continue expanding.
We're looking for some people who can be $25 a month
(26:46):
donors, regularly monthly donors for the price of a pizza and help us expand our missionand our outreach to getting more people, uh getting the exchange in front of more people.
We love you guys and we're praying for you.
We'll see you next week.
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