#50 - How Two Friends Are Reaching the Addicted and the Skeptical W/ Ben Arellano and Saso Mendez

In this episode, George sits down with Ben Arellano and Saso Mendez — co-hosts of the Abundant Life Podcast — to reflect on God’s sovereign work in friendship, evangelism, and discipleship. What began as two men growing in Christ has grown into a ministry that reaches across the globe, not for their glory, but for the glory of the One who saves.

• They share powerful testimonies of God’s grace:
• How job loss, brokenness, and desperation became the soil for salvation.
• How Freedom That Lasts ministry is seeing God break the chains of addiction and sin.
• How everyday vocations, like software development and management, are redeemed as fields for Gospel work.
• How God’s providence brought them together to launch a podcast that challenges and encourages believers toward spiritual growth.

🟢 Listen to Abundant Life Podcast: https://abundantlife.fm

🟢 Saso’s Blog - Staying The Fight: https://stayingthefight.online

📝 Main Topics Covered:

0:00 - Introduction

0:15 - The story behind the Abundant Life Podcast

3:00 - Using podcasts as evangelism and discipleship tools

5:00 - God's providence in vocation and ministry

10:00 - Freedom That Lasts and addictions ministry

13:00 - Testimonies of God’s saving work

20:00 - The call to deeper discipleship

Scripture References:

John 3:16 — “For God so loved the world…”

1 Thessalonians 5:24 — “He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.”

Psalm 115:1 — “Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to Your name give glory…”

👉 If this conversation encourages you, please like, share, and subscribe — not to make much of us, but to make much of Christ.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
With me today is uh Ben Orellano and Saso Mendez.
These guys are some of my best friends in ministry.
I can honestly say that they're like friends to the point of family.
They can call me in the middle of the night.
ah They know the last four of my social as Saso would say.
And uh they've also started this incredible podcast called Abundant Life Podcast.

(00:21):
And so I'm really glad to be collaborating a little bit together today.
Why don't you guys tell me.
uh
You know, why did you start abundant life podcast?
Where can our listeners find it?
Uh, what is it all about?
Well, abundant life podcast and we found abundant life FM.
But I think it was a don't know, maybe God brought us together at the right time to do thepodcast.

(00:41):
And funny that it was during covid where we had more time to, you know, do things andreally Ben's the brains behind the operation of putting it all together and the audio part
of it and uh kind of our ideas merged to what we wanted to do.
We sat down and we really wanted to help people.
have a deeper relationship with God and discipleship and even use it as a tool forevangelism.

(01:07):
And where it's at today is nowhere where we thought it would go initially.
And now it's kind of gone over the world and not an exaggeration because radio podcasts,you can broadcast it out.
much more so than you could radio back in the day.
You don't need a ham radio or an antenna.
I just think it was a vision God uh laid on our hearts at different times.

(01:32):
He brought it together and it's been, I feel, successful to where we wanted it to be andeven beyond my wildest dreams of where God has taken it.
And Ben, would you?
Yeah, I would agree.
mean, it was, was a
something that God laid on my heart.
I think, you know, God was working on Saso's hard at the same time as we move through.

(01:52):
And there's a really interesting story all behind it.
Like there's there's actually one of our podcast episodes called Abundant Friends, and itkind of talks about how we collaborated and the whole backstory.
And it's just a really cool episode.
If you guys want to check it out just to get some further detail.
But uh what I would say is, yeah, I didn't imagine that the podcast would would grow andnot that we're like doing crazy numbers, but it's really cool because, uh you know, we

(02:14):
have uh statistics and we also have
like geo location of where the podcast is going.
There's so it's it's it's gone into like China like it's gone into some places where I'dlike I'm like Germany like.
You don't even speak like those languages, you know what I mean?
And it's going there somehow.
I have no clue who's listening to it.
I'm in God can do whatever right?
God can.

(02:35):
mean, you look at just even like the day of Pentecost and, you know, apostles had theflames and they were talking in people's languages and their own native tongues and not
saying that that's what's happening, but God can do whatever he wants.
And he can take this podcast wherever he wants.
So we're very thankful.
I'm thankful to be part of it.
Thankful that we get to do this every time we record an episode.
I'm I get up.

(02:55):
get excited.
Like I get excited.
I get to share God's word.
I get to talk about things that I love talking about.
oh And so that's kind of our slogan, encouraging and challenging Christians to spiritualchange and growth by applying biblical principles to everyday life.
And that's exactly what we're trying to do.
And that was pre chat GBT.
You know what I mean?
That's a legit saying.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(03:15):
Yeah.
I put some time into that.
Yeah.
That was before back in the day.
also GPT.
So people can find it everywhere, right?
uh
Yeah, abundant life.
FM is the website.
You can get all of our show notes.
You can get episodes there.
But yeah, you just look on like Apple or wherever it is.
You get your podcast and it's pretty much.

(03:36):
Yeah, it's pretty much on.
I think I heart Spotify.
Just look for abundant life and you'll see the, you know, the uh light behind me.
That's our logo.
So just look for that logo and you will you'll find us.
Yeah, so let's start with Saso here.
Saso, tell us a little bit, what do you do, what's your vocation, ah what ministries areyou involved in right now?

(04:00):
So occasionally I work at USA claims manager there manager claims operations is myofficial title uh That's a way to make money.
So I'm not too You know too interested in talking about that per se But I am thankful forthe job and that's a whole nother story of how God worked to give me that job And so when
I walk in there, I try to thank them because I Asked for that job many times and so I tryto

(04:27):
put that more thankfulness every time I walk through there.
ah
place to be right like it's really hard to get that job.
Correct, I mean I applied for year and half maybe more than 30 rejections like I did inhigh school, you So yeah, there was a lot of rejections and but I'm persistent So I just
kept applying for anything loan officer security guard, whatever they would up, you knowPost I would apply and then one day God just said, okay It's your it's your time and it's

(04:57):
funny because one day I went by there to get a tux fitted for my friend who's gettingmarried and
I saw the USA gates and I told my son I took a picture of it.
I sent it to my wife and I said maybe one day and then a month later God answered myprayer to get an interview there and then here we are.
And so I'm very thankful for the job.

(05:18):
But the most important things I think that I do, I would say the podcast, I do, you know,write a devotional blog.
I don't write as much anymore for that.
Just it's time consuming.
What's staying the fight dot online.
If you are interested in checking that out, that comes out daily, unless I'm in the GrandCanyon and don't have access to internet or 5G.

(05:39):
And that's one thing, those are just personal projects and I think.
as a ministry of Northwest Valley.
We do the Freedom at Last and Ben and I do that as well and our wives are involved in thatministry.
And that's probably the biggest ministry in my life.
I mean, I'm part of the Gideons, but kinda scaled that back.

(06:01):
do.
You know scripture reading this small little things, you know, whatever I got out of theushering because that's it wasn't my favorite thing to do I was always late and they
charge you maybe you should just step down and Deacon and but I think most important to meis freedom that last week is hit ten years of ministry there at Northwest and but I look

(06:26):
forward to every Friday night and when they passionate initially
Introduced that to me.
He said it's gonna be every Friday and I thought not not a big deal Until it became everyFriday and then I'm like, wow, like this is not what I really really thought it was And
then now it's I can't imagine like I'm in the Grand Canyon, know We're in the hotelgetting ready for our trip and I'm like man.

(06:48):
wonder what's going on there at this time use you here Ben's probably presenting themessage at, you know, 725 730 and I'm just thinking about it And so it's become such such
a big part of my life
And then I can think of all the people that.
you know, that God has brought into your life through that ministry and people that are nolonger even here on this earth, that he's allowed you to be a piece of their life.

(07:10):
And I'd like to think that that ministry has been pivotal to them spiritually to help themgrow.
And I was just looking at an old devotional to post about John Slaback, who I got to knowover six months and he was going to church and he wanted to grow and he was excited and he
died.
God took him.

(07:30):
but we developed that friendship in six months and just to see God work and then that wasit.
And God knew this is the last six months of his life and he allowed me to be part of that.
That time in his life, the very end and to see him grow and you know people when we doFreedom at Last and we have people on the podcast like my cousin Tony, we see people at

(07:53):
this stage and we don't see them at.
You know the years and years of struggling we see them when they're ready to get helpYeah, I think that's the beauty of freedom that lasts as we see people For the most part
that are ready to change and then we get to see God work in their lives and it's just likeyou know your daughter's gonna graduate and you're gonna sit there and you're gonna see

(08:13):
the PowerPoint go of her life and you're gonna get emotional and maybe cry because youjust like wow, what did how did where did that come from?
And even here when we see people baptize or people accept Christ through the exchange,which we'll get into later.
I mean, it's just like, wow, God, just to see how God works and everybody individual livesand everybody has a story and we don't all come from fentanyl addiction and things like

(08:38):
that.
But we do come from a sin addiction that God says, hey, I want to restore you.
want you going to sit at my table like my fit, but shut right and eat for the rest of yourlife, all eternity with me.
And man, what a powerful thing to experience.
That's amazing.
So um Ben, tell us vocationally what you do.
You've been involved in a lot of different ministries at Northwest Valley over the years,so tell us a little bit about that.

(09:02):
Yeah, before I get into that, I would just say one more thing to this also didn't say, buthe did say he didn't want to talk about his location much.
But I would say that that is a ministry uh because he has minister to his employees.
He's a manager at USA.
Yes.
And we've had actually people come to FTL.
And I know that there's people that he's ministering praying about even at this moment.
And so it's definitely that's a ministry, I think, in and of itself.

(09:25):
But just that I would point that out.
walked me out to my car tonight.
I gotta go bro.
I gotta go do the do a podcast
I mean, okay, and I saw you lunch with Marty yesterday and I know he's he's you knowSomebody that you pray for and stuff.
So, um, so yeah, I'm I vocationally I do I'm a software developer um And I I enjoy doingit.
I'm kind of like Saso said I I did that all day today's don't don't necessarily want tospend a lot of time on that But um, but yeah, so what do I do at the church?

(09:51):
So yeah, I've done I've done a few things
My background is mostly technical and computers and things like that.
when I first started attending church there, I did a lot of like, know, wiring networkcables and fixing computers and things like that.
And then it morphed into, okay, now I'm, you know, administering the website.
Then I started, you know, dabbling into marketing, started doing some of the Facebook ads,some of the Instagram ads, things like that.

(10:17):
I've been a deacon of the church.
um I've served in the youth group.
And then recently just serving in uh FTL, Freedom at Last with Saso.
That just became about with our relationship as we grew closer and as we uh started thepodcast.
It was cool to serve with those that you love to hang out with.

(10:39):
So it's fun to do ministry with Saso because we're a lot alike.
It's pretty wild.
We probably could.
has for brothers.
And that's funny because a lot of people think we are brothers.
In fact, a lot of people think I'm Saso and he's he's me.
And we even have a term for it.
So because yeah, because it's just people sometimes confused.
I think already.
So yeah, it was funny.

(11:00):
Rebecca, when I brought me Saso's badge for soft for freedom and last, I'm like, wait aminute, I'm not Saso.
Yeah.
But uh so I enjoy it.
I love I love ministering.
It's it's a it's a blast.
It's fun.
Discipleship is fun to me.
I love it.
um
Got to sit down with one of my basketball players today, so I coach basketball.
Unfortunately, I think it's maybe one of my last years.

(11:21):
don't know yet.
Whatever the Lord has for me, it's just my time is very limited right now.
do have a, I also have a business.
Not necessarily, I don't want to go into all of that either, but time is just limited.
But.
I love basketball, love coaching, and it's like I was talking to my basketball playertoday and just telling him like, like I love the sport.
It's a great sport.
And I love being out there and playing with the guys.
But to me, coaching basketball, it's a vehicle for discipleship.

(11:46):
get to, I get to talk to these boys.
I get to have an influence and speak into their lives.
And then I got to do that today with him and that was, it was, uh, it was fulfilling to dothat.
Um, you know, the, basketball stuff is fun, you know, and winning games, it's a blast.
but just being able to be a part of somebody's life and make a change in somebody's
his life or an impact on somebody's life.
And he said, you know, he's like, you and coach use have had the biggest impact in mylife.

(12:09):
And I'm just like, wow, that's just what do you say to that?
Like, praise God, because it's and I told him, like, it's not me, bro.
Like, I'm just a filthy sinner.
Like, it's the Lord is God that works through me.
I don't it's not me.
So, yeah, that's that's kind of me in a nutshell there.
You know, I love that because this is the sixth interview we've done on gospel talks Weinterviewed four pastors interviewed cody you guys just got done interviewing cody and

(12:33):
then um now we're interviewing you guys and The the first three guys I interviewed wereall pastors who were coaches in the community or had you know, Some some coaching, you
know background or some involvement in sports coaching and what you hear all the time isthere's no way sports can be used for ministry like they're somehow separate or uh, you
know, one is

(12:54):
very worldly or it's a secular thing and you know ministry is ministry and sports issports but uh no actually I think I see a lot of guys in ministry who have the heart of a
coach and
And there are guys who've built churches on the back of their relationships they'vecreated in a coaching environment, in a little league environment and whatever in their

(13:15):
community, is pretty amazing.
okay, so Saso, tell me, let's get into your life a little bit.
How did you come to know the Lord and Savior?
What's your family like?
You can go as far back as you want.
mean, obviously, we don't want to be here five hours, bro, but we're trying to get thebeat up.

(13:35):
dinner time, understandable.
uh So I grew up in a Christian home, first generation, while my parents were firstgeneration.
And my parents did not come from a Christian home.
And there was a rough upbringing they had.
And I think my mom, for the most part, was they had more money.
They weren't rich by any means, but comparative to my dad who

(13:58):
Grew up very poor and self-dependent on himself.
Very smart.
um I went to my sister and just different, grew up in a different environment.
And I think growing up and you get mad at your parents for how they raise you or howthey're strict or just different things they do.
And as I get older, I get more context of how they really were raised and maybe theyweren't shown everything.

(14:22):
And they were just brand new Christians learning how to raise a family.
So with that information, I thought they did a pretty wonderful job of trying to train us.
so, I mean, they were, what I remember most is they were faithful.
They were who they were at home, at church, wherever we went, not that they were perfector sinless, but they were definitely consistent.

(14:48):
I didn't see two different parents at home and at church.
People respected them for being who they were and, you know.
There's times when my dad did things that even people at church disagreed with because hewas just honest and he didn't want to take advantage of people.
And as a little kid you notice all that, right?

(15:08):
That's not lost on you.
And when you get older you understand the full, you just know it equals eight.
And then you get older and you're like, four plus, that's four, you get it.
But at that point it's impressionable and you're like, why did he do that?
But you remember that.
And so those,
those training things kind of made an impact on me.

(15:29):
And then when I was five years old, my mom would read me this.
And then you guys did a thing with my mom and that was very special.
And I don't even want to watch it.
I know there's going to be a time when my mom's not here.
And then I don't know if I can watch that.
But um but I will.
And she read me the pineapple story.
And that's kind of how the missionary was good to people who stole from him, becausethat's what God is to us.

(15:54):
God, know, the great plan of how God would exchange his life for ours when we don'tdeserve it, right?
We are no, we're not worthy.
And that's that story kind of spoke to me in that regard where the missionary was kind tothese natives, even though they were they weren't they were stealing from him.
They were taking advantage of him.

(16:15):
And he said, you know what, the bigger picture is not to have pineapples, but to win thesepeople to Christ.
And that really resonated with me and I.
I saw that as a little kid and I accepted Christ when I was five.
And obviously there was times in my life where I was questioning my salvation due to mydelinquency and just utter rebellion.
And when I was young, I wanted to be a pastor or Dallas Cowboy.

(16:40):
Neither one of those panned out for me.
And so I grew up, I baptized at eight years old, very conservative Baptist church that wegrew up in.
I don't even think it was called Baptist Church, but I think he would align with BaptistChurch.
Went to Christian school, got kicked out of Christian school as a senior.
And then really did not want to do anything for God, honestly, m until I got married andmy father-in-law was like, okay, I want you guys to find a church and you'll get my

(17:08):
blessing.
I didn't care so much about his blessing, right?
I was going to marry his daughter anyway, but Rebecca uh wanted the blessing, which Iunderstand.
And then we got into a church that was a very small church, very country, you know,church.
And there was like 40 people there.
We went there on a Wednesday night and they were just like, hey, don't come back.

(17:29):
Our pastor's not here.
This guy that's speaking, you know, maybe not the best guy.
He's just he just fills in occasionally.
And he was awful.
um But I think I mean, I wasn't I was just looking at P's, my father-in-law.
I really wasn't looking for.
Church and they were very friendly and when I think that's what's lost on the big biggerchurches is that there are people think they're friendly But they're not friendly like

(17:51):
your church depends on it and when your church depends on people to be friendly becauseyou need tithers You need people or you need bodies to to do work in the church then you
realize how friendly you can be and so they were very friendly and That pastor.
I don't know why he just entrusted us with a lot of stuff

(18:12):
And he let me preach.
My first message was seven minutes and it was awful.
And he just let us serve.
He entrusted us with a lot of things.
And uh Rebecca came from that background of serving because her dad was a pastor.
So she was always used to being aware of new people and serving in the church.
And my parents were too.
My dad was a deacon and he ran a AWANAs program.

(18:33):
He was ahead of that at one point.
And all I saw my whole life was them serve and love people.
And that's what I knew.
And I love.
that part, even though I wasn't per se living for God at that point, I was doing to themotions of serving another.
I love that part of it.
And um and I would say really how we, you know, not just tell the whole story here, buthow we come in that church kind of ran its course and God moved us to another church and

(19:00):
then to the church right now where we really grew under, you know, Pastor Shaw's justteaching and really deep.
I guess.
you know, not just surface level teaching, but really deep going into the roots of theBible.
And really started to learn a lot there.
And then he told me about freedom at last.

(19:21):
And I think that's where the next level of growth where God just said, hey, like, what areyou doing?
you're saying you're going to go to freedom at last to help people like you're the guythat needs help.
You're the one that's struggling with this addiction.
You're the one that needs help.
And I put you in this position not to help others, but
You yourself need to do the program and just to get over bitterness and just a lot ofthings in my life I struggled with and i'm not going to get into all that.

(19:47):
there's nobody else in business.
That's the last four of my social But once I applied myself to those bible memorizationsand Going through the book and applying what god was teaching me my life started to change
and um, there's people i'll run into now that will apologize or say something or be oneggshells and i'm like

(20:09):
That's just not who I who I want to be anymore.
And so and it's funny because my mother-in-law will say the same thing.
Like that's what that's why I came to freedom that last because I saw what God did in yourlife.
Like I saw a difference from the Saso before to the Saso after.
And so this is where we're at.
And this is what God's I mean, there's a lot of things that happen in between there.

(20:30):
But I would say in a nutshell, that's how God's brought me to 49 years on this planet.
And I'm thankful to have a Christian home.
And but
I know that I'm responsible for a lot to, know, to who much is given, much will berequired.
em And I just, that's my prayer for my kids is that they serve themselves in whatevercapacity God would have them to do.

(20:52):
I love that story by the way the pineapple story got to hear your mom.
We got here for the first time that day.
Yeah Ben tell us you know, how did you come to Christ?
What was you know, what kind of family do you come from?
So yeah, I uh did not come from a church home.
I grew up in a Catholic home and uh we were not uh strong Catholic per se.

(21:15):
We attended occasionally, typically your Easter Christmas type services and stuff likethat.
There really wasn't a lot of.
uh
Christian type influence in my life.
So I grew up, you know, very worldly, very, you know, in the world.
I would say though my parents were somewhat conservative though.
I mean, they were kind of strict with me in how they raised me, which I'm very actuallylooking back today, very thankful for.

(21:42):
I think they did what they did best considering their parents and with how they werebrought up as well.
So fast forward to about 2001.
and that's when I met my wife and um we began dating and we got pregnant pretty quick andwe quickly had two sons.

(22:03):
And um fast forward a little bit more, I'm working for a mining company.
I get moved over here to Phoenix, Arizona.
and I'm working for this company for a bit and I get fired and we had just, you know,bought a house, bought a new car, just had a baby and so this was God, I think, putting me

(22:26):
on my knees, looking back, you know, from this side of it and I remember one day I was inmy house and frustrated, looking for work, desperately looking for work.
And I'd never really prayed.
I mean, you you in Catholicism, you say prayers, you say the Lord's Prayer.
That's kind of a repetitive thing or a Hail Mary or or whatever.

(22:48):
I've never really prayed to God like, you know, just asking him or just talking to him.
And but I just noticed one day I walked out and I said, God, if you're real, can you showme?
Can you can you reveal yourself to me?
Something along those lines?
Don't remember exactly.
A couple of weeks later.
I ended up getting a job oh as a contractor and working for this company and man it feltso good to work.

(23:10):
You know I had been out of work for a while and it's like man I'm yeah I was thankful.
You know I'd been put on my knees.
I'd been humbled and so very thankful to be back to work.
I was able to provide for my family and just felt good and one day I'm working.
And I'm, you know, I'm doing a IT type stuff.
And so I'm in a, I'm in an office and I'm, walking into this cubicle and, and, go, I'm notsure I'm going to go help this guy out or if I'm asking him for help, I don't even

(23:37):
remember what, was going on.
But I looked at his desk and there were these little.
Pamphlets, what I thought were pamphlets of church or something.
There was a cross on it.
Some, some language, Christian language.
I didn't know it was a track.
was a track.
And I just looked at him.
I go, hey, man, you believe in all this stuff?
You know, kind of I was being, you know, kind of facetious and little cynical.
And he kind of looked at me seriously.

(23:58):
He's like, yeah, I do.
And then he just kind of let it go.
And we did our thing, whatever I did, whatever I was doing there, I don't remember.
And maybe a few days later, caught him in the hallway and he's like, hey, man, I'm justcurious.
Would you be interested in doing a Bible study?
And I was like, wow, no one's ever really asked me that.
And I was thinking to myself, well, I couldn't hurt.
I've really even never read the Bible.

(24:19):
Like, you know, as a Catholic, didn't even I don't even know if I owned a Bible.
don't know.
Wow.
ah And so I was like, sure.
Like, yeah, man, let's let's let's do it.
And so we would meet.
I think it was every Wednesday in a conference room.
And we kind of started going through the Book of John.
And I don't remember where exactly got to you.
know we probably talked to Nick Kadimis, maybe got to John three 16.

(24:41):
I don't know exactly where and, and, this, this guy's name was Michael and he, uh, startedtalking to me about just salvation in general, talking about sin, talking about, man, like
where, what, where would you go if you were to die today?
You know?
And I, I mean, based on the questions, what I'd read, I mean, I was just answeringhonestly, I said, I'd probably go, I'd probably be going to hell.

(25:03):
And I said, well, man, that doesn't have to be your eternal destination.
And he told me about he told me about Jesus and he told me, you know, hey, you just youjust repent and believe like it's just it's very it's it's very simple.
I didn't know what repentance meant.
I didn't know, you know, how to how to pray or how to confess my sin and ask, you know,ask Jesus to be my savior.

(25:25):
But he kind of he kind of said, hey, just just, you know.
Tell them you believe, tell them you're thankful and tell them you're sorry for your sin.
Pretty basic.
And I did.
And I did it with all my heart.
And I meant it.
And that day in a conference room, it was on a Wednesday in 2006, think March of 2006, Igot saved.

(25:46):
it was life changing transformation.
I mean, Lord cleaned up my language.
He cleaned up the...
Awful music.
I listened to like he cleaned up so many things in my life immediately and some thingsweren't so immediate Some things lingered obviously, but I just remember having a fire for
him and I would even talk to the P I didn't even know like, know, how did I find books inthe Bible and so I'm talking to other people about it and and just just I remember that

(26:11):
fire that I had was pretty amazing and I started attending church there.
So this the church that we go to now I have this been the one and only church I've been toand
You know, I remember every Sunday just being drawn in with Pastor Shaw.
He would preach and I felt like I was in a tunnel and he was just preaching right out.
I mean, it's like who tipped this guy off about me?
Like, how did he know that?

(26:32):
Like, how did he how does he know this stuff?
And I was just drawn in like I was so dialed in.
It's it's interesting.
I remember I was so intrigued with his preaching and I was learning.
I was just soaking it in like a sponge and I would write notes and like he's he's actuallyhand out these like uh these little
flyers like half a page or whatever and it would have kind of his outline.

(26:55):
He would have blanks so you you gotta pay attention, know, right, filling your blanks.
But I would take notes, like not just that, but I would take notes.
And then I would go home and I would compose an email and I would send it to everybody onmy list, like friends, family, I didn't care.
I just put everybody in there.
Called it, I put the subject Sunday school, what I learned at Sunday school and then Ijust put like kind of a pastor's outline.

(27:18):
And I just was sending, did that.
I mean, I did that religiously for, I don't know, months.
I don't know how long, like for just for a really long time.
Um, but eventually, you know, sometimes that, that fire kind of, you know, dwindles alittle bit and you get busy, life gets busy and that sort of thing.
So fast forward, you know, a little bit and,
You know, right around that time, too, uh obviously, my wife and I, weren't married atthat time.

(27:39):
And that was one of the first convictions that God gave me was, hey, man, you're notmarried.
You're living like you are, but you're not.
And so we actually got married.
We got married at.
my friend that led me to the Lord, we got married at his house.
It was as it was a discipleship group.
And Pastor Shawl married us there at that at that discipleship group.
So we we did it in home.
And it's it's funny because it's it's coming up like our anniversary is coming up herehere in a few weeks.

(28:00):
And.
So just uh, yeah, it's just cool to think back like this is where god has taken me, knowand brought me to And it's just growing over the years just you know being under uh great
teaching conservative teaching Reading reading scripture, you know and just growing in myrelationship with god and there's ebbs and flows Um, you know, there's there's ups and

(28:21):
downs.
There's been times.
I doubt my salvation you dip into sin, whatever and um
but you get back up, man falls and he gets back up.
I don't remember the Bible verses, get fall, a man falls seven times and he gets back upagain.
But, and so, yeah, that takes me up till today and serving in the church, serving in FTLand all of these different ministries and it's just been a blessing to do all of that.

(28:48):
That's awesome.
I know that um just being your friend, having been around you guys, um I would say moreintensely in the last three years.
um I knew Ben for a long, long time when I was from when I was even a teenager to, to thispoint, but Saso I met when I first came back, I think you had arrived to Northwest Valley

(29:10):
while I was gone in Africa um and, immediately hit it off with these guys.
One of the things I've noticed just, you know, being your friend,
I've seen you guys use the exchange Bible study a lot and I'm just wondering, know,honestly, you know, you don't have to sugarcoat You don't have to flatter or anything like
that But when you as you've used the exchange Bible study, you know, what have you seenGod do with it?

(29:32):
um What do you like about it?
What do you what do you think its strengths are obviously anything has strengths andweaknesses?
So you go you go into whatever you want to go into you don't have to be bashful But but Ithink I think that um I think that it's good for the audience to hear from practitioners
you know, guys that actually use it ah in their ministry.
And you guys have a very intense ministry, an addictions ministry, freedom that lasts.

(29:54):
So you guys write blogs, you you have a podcast.
And so ah I know Rebecca has a counseling ministry, your wife saw so, and Diane's been aSunday school teacher to many, kids over the years.
they're both also involved, Diane and Rebecca are both also involved in FTL.
So how have you guys seen the Lord use?
ah

(30:14):
the exchange bible study, that whole curriculum.
I would say that I didn't take the training class on it.
So Rebecca really took that training class when I think Jeff Musgrave came and presentedthat several years ago.
I would want to say 2015 because when I bought my car, I just tie that memory.
So it's 2015, I think, when he came and she took the training and she used it immediatelywith somebody we picked up on the bus, a young lady that was about 17, 18.

(30:43):
I'm letter to the Lord through that and I really didn't pay it much mind, right?
I mean I've tried it a couple times at work when I was at Target even got this they wentthrough all these hoops to get the Spanish edition it was such a Like you couldn't get it
so easily as you can now It was hard to get so I have a Spanish edition because a guy atmy work that speaks, you know felt more comfortable doing it in Spanish and Honestly, I

(31:07):
just never pursued it with them like I should have
um They weren't they didn't follow up with me and I was like, yeah, you know, they don'twant to be saved, you know, and they're going to go to hell.
just that's I didn't say that right.
But that's how you felt just to be real about it.
That's what I showed because I didn't pursue.
we went to freedom at last.

(31:28):
And, know, the church has it.
And I really didn't know a lot about the exchange, to be honest with you.
And and you volun told me somebody that we met.
And you're like, Hey, sauce is going to do the exchange with you.
And I'm like, I am.
OK, like, what do you how do you say no to that?
Right.
Right.
Right.
Here's some fish.
All these fishes in the ocean.

(31:48):
And we're hungry.
Like, yeah.
OK.
So I agreed to do it.
And that really was my first experience with the exchange on that level.
I tried it with somebody at work, but.
you know, I did I mean, we're, we're still on like lesson three.
We didn't really go anywhere with it.
And then but this guy was hungry for it.
He was he was wanting to pursue pursue God he was searching he was lost.

(32:14):
He was coming off of an addiction and he was God at this point as you would say gave him amoment of clarity in his life.
He was free of substance.
And he just
ate it up every week, he would come prepared and he would this whole and it's a lot right.
If you look at the exchange, it's it's a lot to go through from one week to the next.

(32:35):
There's are a few however you do it.
But from lesson one to lesson two, there's a lot of blanks.
There's a lot of deep stuff in there.
That's a lot of people.
It's hard to do it like one lesson a week.
Yeah, and uh
It was tough and I was just, then it, you know, I started reading it and like, wow, thisis really good.
It kind of explained things.

(32:55):
It kind of, you know, it was leading you obviously to like Jesus did many times in theword of God.
was setting people up to hear the gospel or to hear what his message.
And I think that's what the, exchange does.
It builds up from week one to week two.
I'm like, wow, I'm just.
You know, okay, God is you know, God is love and well, I'm and I'm a scumbag like and Ifpeople get that point like wow that I'm not worthy then I think lesson three is gonna go

(33:25):
really well and it's funny because We were gonna go out to lunch and you're like, hey, doyou mind if Jeff Musgrave comes along?
I'm like, yeah, I kind of do like I'd rather not have lunch with Jeff Musgrave.
I think I don't know this guy I gotta be spiritual.
You know, I just can't shoot the breeze
And when he came, it's I feel like it was God.

(33:47):
uh Obviously was, but that God orchestrated that lunch because that day I would sit inthat same restaurant that I go to all the time in that same booth and talk to this man.
And I told him like, here, here's the background.
And he kind of encouraged me and he said, man, if he's willing to go to lesson three afterhearing lesson two, he's almost an honorary Christian.

(34:10):
He's going to get saved.
I know he is.
And we prayed for him and we went through lesson three.
And oh my next question was, hey, OK, what's your decision?
Do you accept what God's done for you?
And but God said, don't say nothing.
Just let it let it just let it sit with him.
And I went he went to the bathroom and.

(34:31):
It just didn't happen.
I was like, man, he seemed like he was into it.
And then Friday, he talked about the exchange again.
It was Wednesday to Friday, freedom to the last.
He had more questions.
And the group kind of helped answer those questions.
he was encouraged.
And then the next Wednesday, we were doing lesson four.
And I wanted to know, like, dude, where are you at?

(34:52):
Like, because lesson three is powerful.
Lesson four is just, come on.
Said oh I have big news and I'll go excited and his big news was like my girlfriend andsomething's the stupidest thing I've ever heard I'm like, that's not big news.
I thought big news was like I accepted Christ and and Then like 20 minutes later.
He's a hey man I just wanna let you let you know that after Friday night I was you know,I've been thinking about the exchange and you know what on lesson 3 and God is love and

(35:20):
and I went home on Saturday and
I believe I accepted Christ.
said, well, how do you know?
And he's like, I put my faith in Jesus Christ for nothing else.
I believe I'm just like, that wasn't your big news.
Like you didn't lead in with that.
That next time.
And I think once you experience somebody going through the exchange and you see somebodycome to Christ, it's like, man, I want to do this with everybody.

(35:49):
And God brought in my cousin Tony that we did it as a group.
And uh there was a young man there that was not interested at all.
His mom forced him to come.
And he didn't get saved.
He didn't want to accept it.
But my cousin Tony, I mean that was the gateway to leading him to Christ.
He became a believer through the exchange.

(36:09):
And that was the second person that we saw.
um And there's several other people, Matt that we're doing, Gustavo who I work with, we'restuck on lesson three.
And he just can't get past certain things about God is love.
But it's been it's such I think it's easy to ask people.
don't know Ben can expand on this as well.

(36:30):
He here you want to do a Bible study.
I think somebody that has one percent interest or a little interest, they think like, yes,I want to do it.
Not knowing that the Bible study is a mission to get them to know Jesus Christ as theirLord and Savior.
And I think the exchange is such a powerful tool because it
Think it starts in the just the right way and it just kind of eases you in and then boom,you know God really works through that book so Sorry Jeff about that Interaction, but I

(37:01):
just really believe it's been such a powerful Where I have extra books in my car and Ihave a book that I filled out in my house ready to go That I you know, there's a comfort
level when you've done it a couple of times.
but I think it's a powerful too and
pretty clear on how you can become, how you can have a personal relationship with JesusChrist.

(37:22):
Now there's some deeper things in there that to me, people struggle with, because it'skind of, know, every, there's pros and cons, right?
But I think it's necessary to know, um but I mean, there is some deep, deep topics.
And I think in those, uh
And those areas, you just take your time.
Like you don't push through, if they're not ready to go to three or they're not ready togo to four or they're not ready go to two, you spend your time on one ensuring like, okay,

(37:47):
man, I know that's a lot.
Some people can handle the strong coffee, right?
And some people can't.
They get jittery.
And we don't wanna get jittery.
We want them to fully understand what the exchange and what God has really done for them.
And I think once, it's funny because when I did it with Scott,
He he said all that verse when you know God took upon, know, he exchanged exchange.

(38:10):
that's why it's called the exchange.
He got it.
And that's when it to me clicked in his mind.
Like, wow, that verse because the book, you don't understand the exchange.
But once you come to know Christ and you come to know the power of that verse, it clicksand you're like, wow, that was that is the great exchange that God has done in my life.
Yeah, 2 Corinthians 521 and that chart where you cross out Jesus's name and you put yourname there.

(38:35):
That is we've we've heard from a lot of people that have used the book that you know,that's where a lot of people get it.
What's interesting is after we three had lunch with Jeff that day, we got in the car andstarted driving back here to Ben's place, I think, to continue recording.
And Jeff's like, yeah, two things, man.
They're they're good friends to you.

(38:56):
They treat you well and You guys are good friends and I could just tell that just bysitting at the table so he he's so such a relational guy that it's like the prism through
which he sees the world and then um You know, the other thing is I asked him one time.
This is
uh Totally different time not related to that lunch uh Man, know, it's tough to get peoplethrough and in four weeks on the exchange like man I usually go to eight.

(39:23):
I'm like what you didn't you didn't tell me this so he's like no I could take anywherefrom four to eight.
You just depends on the person you're sitting with so Yeah, but I think to though thereason I love the four weeks is because
there is an urgency in getting the gospel out.
You don't know how much time you have with that person.
And as you know, sometimes you can get to lesson two and then boom, that person for somereason, the interest dies, it goes away, whatever.

(39:49):
So I do think, you know, as soon as possible as we can get them as we can get them toChrist, the better.
But there are some people just they.
Cody, he was on the podcast here with you guys.
You know, it was like six months of hour and a half to two hour meetings with me everyweek.
um So, you know, that's
Thanks.

(40:09):
were generous with your time.
It was exact words.
what else is a pastor's time for than that kind of thing?
anyway, Ben, tell us, what do think, you've used the exchange, we did it together actuallywith, um man, I'm sorry, I forgot his name, Jake.
We did it together with Jake, went all the way through it, so tell me what you think.

(40:30):
ah Yeah, I think you're like what you said.
I think we're sold that it's a four part Bible study.
So in our mind, mentally, we're thinking four weeks or four meetings.
And I think that when you try to do that, it's it's very overwhelming, especially forsomebody who's never been churched, doesn't know much and comes in and sees all these
verses and sees all these blanks they got to fill in and feels like homework and, youknow, all of that.

(40:52):
uh All that to say is it's it's that dilemma where you just said there's an urgency, butthere's a lot of good stuff in here.
You know, like, mean, there's a lot of meat in there for you to for you to chomp on.
So, yeah, I love the exchange.
It's it's a constructive criticism.
You can call it.
I don't know if there's a there's a better way to get them through and faster.

(41:12):
I don't know.
Just because of that urgency.
And I think I think of that, you know, I think of that urgency.
We know we don't know what's going to happen.
We're not promised our next breath.
We don't know.
But yeah, I love I love the exchange.
I think I took Jeff's class might have been in 2015.
I don't remember.
And uh it was, I thought it was great material.
uh I think I, I might've even gone through the exchange with my dad at one point.

(41:37):
And this is even back when they were living back in New Mexico.
uh I didn't see any, any fruit out of that.
Unfortunately, I don't know if I went too fast or if he didn't understand, not quite sure.
ah And then a few, couple of years later, Diane and I sat with some friends and we, uh wewere kind of trying to figure out like, Hey, this is

(41:58):
You know, we wanted to practice, so we kind of would get together on a I was like aThursday night, Friday night or something.
We get some food and then we'd go through the exchange and we'd fill in all the blanksourselves and try to just talk through some things just to kind of practice up.
And so, you know, I had a little bit of interaction with it.
The primary interaction I had with it was with with Joel.
And what ended up happening is uh Ivan, another church member, had started discipling Joeland started going to the exchange with him.

(42:24):
And there was just a night where he couldn't he couldn't meet with Joel at the church.
And so I was like, I'd love to meet with Joel.
I had already met him and we just kind of clicked.
And I got to do lesson, I think it was less, it might've been lesson three out of four.
I don't even remember, honestly.
And it was one of those things where I got to witness the Holy Spirit just moving.

(42:46):
And I saw how the Holy Spirit was just moving in Joel and the question, he was askingquestions.
And this is what I love about the exchange because it generates questions and it generatesdiscussion.
And they're real questions, know, they're real surface level questions that people aregoing to have.
And not that I have all of the answers and I even told him I said, I may not have all theanswers.
And if not, if I don't, we can we'll figure them out.
We'll figure this thing out together.

(43:07):
But he just kept asking these really, really good questions.
I mean, you can tell he was he was ready.
He the Holy Spirit was moving and uh and it kind of clicked for him.
And this is again the Holy Spirit moving through me.
It was nothing that I it just came to me at the moment.
uh But he's like, yeah, I just feel like, man, I got it.
I have to I got to clean myself up before I can do any of this.
I can't come to God like this.

(43:28):
And I said, well, wait a minute, I said.
I said, do you, do you lose weight before you go to the gym?
You go to the gym to lose weight.
I said, you go to God to clean you up.
God cleans you up.
You don't clean yourself up.
And it clicked, but he didn't get saved at that moment.
We continue talking, but I saw him and he, I mean, he was emotional.
I saw the spirit moving.

(43:48):
He was, you know, tearing up.
And I thought, man, you know, he's going to get saved.
I just, it didn't happen that moment.
What I, what I didn't know is right after that meeting, he went to his van.
And he trusted Christ in his van.
He got saved in his van.
And so, yeah, and unfortunately, you know, he he ended up moving back to Alaska, but hewas coming to FTL and he was hanging with us and we were trying to disciple him.

(44:13):
In fact, we had we had like a Wednesday night group that we were meeting with and westarted doing like a.
uh
Christian discipleship book and then it ended up moving over to back to the exchangebecause we got Tony and that was cool and that was cool because we still had some guys
coming in and it was neat because we'd have guys that were saved already but they werecoming in just to see how we did it and they were learning too and so it was just neat to

(44:34):
have a group and it was just almost like a big support group and Tony was just getting fedand uh there were times for me and Sasa were like did he get saved and I don't know we
would just be like oh maybe I don't know and we honestly don't even know at what point hegot saved but um
But he did, gloriously saved.
And so it's just an amazing thing to see the spirit work, to see how it all works.

(44:55):
But I think the exchange is a very powerful tool.
um If anything, it gets you reading the word.
It prompts questions.
It prompts curiosity.
I think it's just it's a relational thing because you like you and Cody, you guys built arelationship over that, you know, six period and six month period, whatever, whatever you

(45:15):
met with him going to take it a moment to a coffee shop.
But but.
up.
But yeah, I think it's it's definitely a powerful tool.
I love it.
It's great.
Yeah.
So.
You know, you guys, one of the reasons I think we're good friends and I respect you both alot is because you guys are relational.

(45:39):
ah know Sasi here story after story of people you're building relationships with insideUSAA.
Some of the people from USAA that have come to FTL are people that would typically neverdarken the church of a fundamental Baptist church.
They would never, ah and here they are at Friday night in the church.
And Ben, you're also extremely
relational, mean you love people, you're passionate about people.

(46:02):
I whoever wants to talk here and know whoever wants to start but what do you guys believeis, what are the essential ingredients to being relational, building relationships in your
workplace, in your life, with people in your community, in today's American society?
I will say to me, Rebecca will tell you this is I, you know, I put my hand out for ahandshake.

(46:25):
And I'll give you a handshake and but I want more right to go up your arm until we'rehugging and not really knows I'm not really a hugger kind of change that a little bit.
More of a hug on that regard.
And I think that's relational what I want to do.
I want to introduce myself and just work my way into your life for a reason for anobjective.

(46:46):
And
Not to be manipulative, but to say like I care about you as a human being.
And I think at USA, the friendships that I've made um with people is I think genuinelythey know that I care about them and I don't, I can't care about them if I don't love them
like God sees them or God loves them.
Cause that's not within me naturally, right?

(47:09):
That's not a characteristic that, that I have inside.
But when he says that God is love, right?
And how we know
We are part of God is that we love other people.
And I think that's both.
mean, that best exemplifies how I look at people are I try to look at people is this isnot an employee, right?

(47:29):
This is somebody God has put right in my life for a reason, for a purpose, not to drivethem to results.
But that's part of my job too, right?
But primarily my relationship is because God brought him in the door of freedom that lastsfor God brought him through.
Work or God brought me to work here and I think that really changed my life at Target whenI hated working there I really did and God said but I gave you 24 people that you are in

(47:59):
charge of and Will do anything for you and you don't care about them You don't you don'tcare if they go to hell you don't care if they you don't care about their soul And I
really that's where the exchange started with me where I started I didn't know about it,but I'm like, hey that heard this works
So I started to tell people about it.
But I think, for people I know, Rebecca said, you're very relational, right?

(48:22):
I try to be friendly.
But I had to work on being friendly to everybody, because that's not natural for me.
And as they would say, I've taken so many classes to be folksy.
And there's something about everybody that you can have something commonality with.
And to find that tie and to bring it, I mean, even somebody at B-dubs.

(48:43):
You know, hey, can you pray for my dog?
Great somebody that serves you food?
Boom you found an interest he saw you praying and now she wants she built Wow these guysprayer and people are always watching and They're always judging how you react with them
if you're friendly if you're kind if you're loving and I think they're just people thatwalk around oblivious to people that are just With their arms out and they're just saying

(49:10):
I need help
And you're looking for something else or you're looking for I don't know what you'relooking for you but you're not seeing what What what's in front of you and it really
what's in front of you is where we work?
You know where we go shop where we eat all these things where you build relationships withand it's it's funny because my daughter Lainey was here and she thought it was funny that

(49:33):
I had you know Chelsea's You know we you know text so we text about Buffalo Wild Wings.
We're not texting about
anything else and she sent me a picture of her niece, whatever.
And I say, hey, I'm praying for your dog or I'm praying for you or hey, Friday night wehave freedom at last.
We gave her a track, invited her.
And I just think that God has made us relational.

(49:55):
Obviously we know that.
He made us relational like we're dependent on him.
But also that's what people, I think there's so many people that are hurting and really Ilook at people that I have relationships with.
That I never would have a relationship with.
I would not be interested in being friends or even friendly to them in my flesh.
And I think of Gustavo at work.

(50:17):
Totally different human being that I've ever met in my entire life.
For all kind of reasons.
And I think about it and I go, I don't know that he has anybody that loves him or anybodythat
He basically told you like you're like his dad.
He wants me to adopt him as his dad for and then he gets mad at me like this is like areal.

(50:41):
And so these relationships and I think of, you know, people like Brian that came tofreedom that last had no family.
And when he passed away, we held service for him.
And if we did it, nobody would have done that.
Nobody would have remembered his name.
Nobody would have.
He would have been gone.
And that's it.
I'm just grateful and I think Rebecca on the other spectrum my wife is very friendly veryto anybody and everybody and Just has a kind heart right where me naturally I don't have

(51:09):
that kind heart God's worked on me on that, know, somebody you know doesn't say hi to me achurch back in the day I built up my wall and never talked to him again.
Forget them and uh God's really changed my life into that and said, okay, but there's areason why
that person, maybe they're hurting, maybe whatever the reason is.
I've called you to love people.

(51:30):
I've called you and we know there's people right in our red button people in the church.
I'm going to get Pastor George in trouble here that we struggle with that are not easy tolove.
They make themselves at times unlovable with the world's definition.
But God says doesn't matter.
Right.
I love them.
And I just try to keep that perspective of being friendly to everybody.

(51:52):
And then I think when I came into USA for the first time,
I was so grateful for that job that I would say hi to everybody.
Hey.
And I was just thrilled to be there.
And there's people that will come up to me now.
Hey, Rosendo, that I don't even remember.
like, man, when I first came here and I came to the, you know, employee, new employee ororientation, you came up to me, shook my hand and said, man, you're to do great here.

(52:15):
Good luck.
And I'm like, I said that like, yeah, I go, what's your name?
it's Jane.
Like, I don't even remember.
And it's led to relationships and.
I think if you can go into every day, no matter what you're going through, I know Ben'shad a rough week this week, and just say, man, when I go into AutoZone, I'm gonna put the
joy of the Lord on my face.
When I go into Buffalo Water, when you throw them, put the joy of Lord on my face.

(52:36):
When I go into whatever, when I go into church, right, and it's funny, because I go intochurch and I see people that look miserable.
I'm like, this is the highlight of your week.
How can you be miserable?
Like, how come you're not friendly?
How can you not just be bubbling over and excited?
And I think if you carry that joy of the Lord, man, that is attractive to a world that iswithout hope.
And I think that leads to relationship for people when you say you want to do Bible study.

(53:00):
I think part of them is curious to say, man, I want some of that coffee that you drankbecause, man, that's is crazy.
And I think that's so helpful to.
And even on this hike that I did, I can't tell you how many times I said the joy of theLord is my strength.
And it truly is empowering when you carry that joy of the Lord.
as a part of your personality.

(53:22):
And I know it's not me, because you could tell people that know me from back in the day,like that's not who I am.
But God transforms your life and that joy of the Lord is, man, when you're not saved andyou're without hope, you want that in your life.
Ben, tell us man, what about you?
Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm relational.
um But I would say that I'm I'm also um somewhat outgoing, but I'm also somewhat notoutgoing.

(53:49):
So in other words, I like small crowds or one on one or, know, you know, three guys eatingwings or whatever kind of guy happens a lot.
Yeah.
And that's kind of where I like this, my comfort zone.
So naturally, I'm not, you know, super outgoing, you know.
saying hi to people.
I try to be friendly to everybody.
You know, we're supposed to be salt and light.

(54:09):
I definitely want people to see Jesus in me if possible.
And I know sometimes I'm failing sanctification tests, know, because I'm getting mad atthe guy cutting me off on the street or whatever.
And, know, I'm not always thinking about sharing Christ, you know, with the cashier at thestore or whatever.
And it's just things I'm working on, you know, obviously.
But I think it's so important to build those relationships.

(54:33):
Because if you don't have those, if you don't build the relationship, it's hard to speakinto people's lives.
Because anymore, like, I mean...
The world is being marketed to and you know, you get a call on your phone and you look atit and it's like, yeah, do I?
Yeah, red button.
I don't know this guy or you answer it and you know, they start you hear the little pauseand then they start talking.
You already know, like it's it's it's a spam call.

(54:55):
I'm hanging up here, you know, or, know, don't people don't want to answer their doors.
I mean, we go hang door hangers.
And I was I don't even know how effective that really is.
um But people just they, you know.
They're they're they're guarded.
They're very guarded.
And so it's hard to get into somebody's life.
But I think like Sasa said, if you're showing the joy of the of the Lord and and, know,just being friendly, um you know, one thing is that, you know, serving in FTL, I've had my

(55:22):
eyes open to how how what broken this really looks like.
I mean, you know, when I got saved, I was I was broken, but I wasn't I mean, I wasn't inthe gutter and I wasn't, know, on drugs and I wasn't coming off of all these
And there's just people that are just hurting.
mean, or maybe people just hurting.
know, Diane and I have had uh trials in the last few years with family members passingaway.

(55:45):
had a business partner commit suicide.
And we deal with these emotional hurts.
uh We watched one of our favorite uh documentaries, Show Me the Father, and it just talksabout dad wounds.
And there's a whole world of broken people.
A whole world of broken people.
And you have to look at them like Jesus looks at.

(56:07):
It looks at people, you know, uh loving people.
And it's not easy.
It's not easy to always do that.
There's a lot of unlovable people like Sauswell mentioned, and it's not easy, but it'sit's crucial.
mean, this is how we have to this is how we have to see it.
This is how we have to react to this world.
It is is hopeless.
They have zero hope and they don't know it.

(56:29):
uh So with that, it's just it's it's.
uh
It's difficult to get into somebody's life, but I think if you kind of work it into yourlife, like Sasa said, we go to B-Dubs every two or three times a week sometimes.
We're going there in a little while.
We're going tomorrow.
um And those are places where you can.
We have a problem.

(56:49):
I know.
That's another episode.
Yeah, but you build you build those relationships because you're interacting with thesepeople consistently and once they start building that relationship, it's easier to say
hey, how about a Bible?
So you want or you want to come to church or you want to come to FTL?
We have this addictions ministry, you know, come check it out if you want, you know, it'suh it's not like an AA meeting where it's more like a church service, you know, come come

(57:11):
check it out.
It's discipleship.
It's easier to say those and have those doorways and those doors to be opened rather thanpeople just, know, they're just very guarded.
So definitely important to build relationships.
It's not easy and sometimes you just have to get creative.
um You you have to view the world that they are broken and there's a lot of hurt andpeople need Jesus.

(57:35):
mean, Jesus is the answer.
This is what I love about Freedom at Last is because we've had people come into Freedom atLast and say, well, it's weird you guys don't really talk about
What issue are you you in the cocaine?
Are you in the marijuana?
Are you a druggy?
Are you an alcoholic?
And we just tell them, we don't focus on the problem, we focus on the solution.
The solution is Jesus.

(57:56):
Without Jesus, you can't break those chains.
You can go to AA meetings and maybe you can clean yourself up for two to three months, ormaybe up to a year or something like that, but you're gonna fall right back into your
vices.
Jesus is the only way to break those chains, the only way.
And so,
Yeah, building relationships, very important, very important.
And the exchange is also a platform.

(58:17):
It's a vehicle that you can take and get people into the Word, get people thinking aboutthese things and have them ask questions and build that curiosity and ultimately share
Christ.
And yeah, there's definitely going to be some fruit from that.
Yeah, I love that.
um You know, you guys just, you know, both mentioned FTL.
Does that process building relationships, discipleship, evangelism, does it look anydifferent when you're sitting across from a methamphetamine addict versus you're sitting

(58:45):
across from a guy who installs AC units on roofs all day?
You know, um anything you'd adapt for the specialty of addictions ministry.
I would say there's a when somebody's on fentanyl or on drugs or even alcohol, there's amore of an urgency.
And uh it's not I don't always see that with somebody that is in their minds living adecent life.

(59:10):
But when somebody comes to freedom that last at that point, they're desperate.
They may not say it.
They may not.
And sometimes they do say it.
But they they desperately need help.
And they don't know what help looks like, but they know they need.
And at some point, I think it's the God they've been told in their life.
Some point you need God, but not necessarily connected them to how, how do I get God?

(59:35):
How does he exist?
But where and how, and just like Ben said, like if you exist, like, and I think when Bensaid that he was acknowledging there is a God, but he's not personal God to me.
And, uh, you know, I think that's the same thing with Gustavo.
It's not personal yet.
Um,
God's working on his life, but I think it's there's more of a desperation.
And so I think people are um more apt for that solution to to do the exchange or to doBible study.

(01:00:03):
Not to say the guy with the AC is not looking to that, but I just feel like there's moreof a like I need help now.
Not I don't want to do the eight week exchange.
I need to do the four week.
And if you can meet with me twice this week, great.
I want to get as much as I can.
And I think everybody's different right not every not even any drug addicts or like that,but it typically if they come more than once then they're pretty dedicated to getting help

(01:00:31):
or Finding a solution and some people come once and we never see him again, right?
They just wasn't for them or they're not ready and I really think what you said to meabout, know the gentleman that we were talking about is that God gave him a moment of
clarity in his life and sobriety for this period of time and
Brian that used to come for that last that God took him home uh With this addiction right?

(01:00:55):
He never got victory on this side of the of the of the world But he's you know victoriousin heaven But that's what he had like a year of sobriety where God really transformed his
life saved him transformed them sanctified him and Then we saw the struggle in his faceevery time he would come because he was battling When you're not saved right?
You don't care if you sin or not like there's no real tie or dick

(01:01:19):
No, uh, guilt or no shame.
Like this is what you do.
Like I enjoy drugs and I know I shouldn't do it because it's morally wrong, societalwrong, but it's not really, I'm not offending anybody else.
And I think he really felt the deep pain of hurting God and not having that relationshipthat he used to have with God.

(01:01:39):
And he's at battle, it struggled with him.
And that addiction was so powerful.
And I think that he just, you know, I don't, for whatever reason, he just could not findvictory, but I just.
I feel like there's just a difference between somebody that's an addict compared tosomebody that's not Even though we're all addicted to something I think drugs and you know
alcohol Provide a more urgency because there's people that have been Narcan back to life.

(01:02:04):
We had Tony that that's what he said Hey, I was Narcan back.
So he knows that the thin line between death and life and that's it right and then there'sno more chances for you So you need to get this squared away as quickly as possible
And I think you have to be ready, you know um You know we see when we see that like Sosasaid they they're they're desperate and I think you you have to be ready for the change

(01:02:28):
You know, I think of Tony and you know Tony uh You know, he would talk about you know whenhe was in his uh You know drug swings or whatever when he was, you know on the fentanyl or
whatever he was on
And he was talking about how dark it was.
mean, was definitely like a demonic uh oppression, presence.

(01:02:51):
There was definitely a demonic presence.
And I think you opened it up.
That's funny, I'm talking to my...
my basketball player today and he was asking me about about drugs and what I thoughtabout, you know, is it a sin?
And I just told him, said, you know, you look in the Old Testament and you see the wordsorcery and the word for sorcery is pharmacay.
Oh, you get for pharmacy and it all ties to drugs.
And when you take drugs, you're opening yourself up to the demonic.

(01:03:14):
You're opening yourself.
You're opening a door that you don't want to open.
It opens up the door to a lot of sin.
There's actually
uh a demon cult like a satan cult called pharmaca.
really?
Yes, yes comes from that greek word.
Wow.
They acknowledge this connection between being high and being close to satan.
And it is, and that's what it is, right?

(01:03:35):
But I think that was a motivator for Tony for wanting him to change.
wanted, he didn't want that darkness anymore.
He didn't want a piece, he saw it all.
He saw it, he lived it.
And he was ready, he was ready for something different.
was, like he said, our Ken back to life.
He was talking, he told me about being in a point of life where he just, didn't care if hedied.
He didn't care if he went to hell.

(01:03:55):
And that's a really dark place to be.
A really dark place to be.
It's like, I think of my business partner, he was battling alcohol.
And I think I talked to his mom a little bit and somewhere in his journal, it almostsounded like he, the reason he committed suicide was just because he felt he was not
fixable.
He couldn't get fixed and he was sick of it.
He was sick of the addiction and so he just, he took care of the problem.

(01:04:20):
And I think it was very sad because he was in a complete state of utter hopelessness.
And so, yeah.
There's a there's a there's a big difference, I think, between the the addict and the guythat's doing the AC.
But here's the thing I would say the there's no difference in the addict and the AC guythat aren't saved.
They're both just as dead and they both need Christ just as much.

(01:04:40):
And so I would say that the urgency is definitely the same on both sides, whether theyrealize it or not.
Yeah, and what I love is, you know, we've done the exchange by body with both Bible studywith both.
Right.
Right.
We've done the exchange with Tony and we've done it with Jake.
And Jake runs this really big, successful AC business and Tony is well, we're actuallygoing to have an interview with Tony.

(01:05:04):
think it's going to be the episode after this one.
cool.
Right.
And I'm going have Tony on the podcast, but you're going to hear Tony's life and you'regoing to be like, wow.
But that's what I love.
mean, Jesus, he said, I draw all men unto myself.
uh
I do not will that any should perish but that all should have eternal life um You know,it's written there in 2nd Peter.
So I'm just thankful to Lord that he's willing to save all of us

(01:05:26):
would say the key like he says that right if I be lifted up he'll draw them into himselfand I think the road
Even churches that aren't really fundamental are not doing things, are doing all kinds ofmethod, our methodologies to bring people.
It's not hard, right?
You lift up the solution.
And just like the snake healed the Israelites, they had a look and live, right?

(01:05:49):
There's this song, Look and Live My Brother.
Same thing, right?
We have to look to Jesus.
I think that's the beauty of the exchange, because I think it does a great job of pointingpeople to a lifted Christ.
I think it's really a God honor.
method of explaining the gospel in real four steps.
Whether it takes you eight weeks, 12 weeks, six months, four weeks, know, God is sovereignand whatever somebody needs, he'll guide you to what that process looks like.

(01:06:16):
Yeah, and I love the ground at the foot of the cross is level Yeah, right.
So none of us stand a bit an inch spiritually above anybody else And and we do haverespectable sins, right?
There are sins that we feel like well, that's a more respectable rap sheet than that oneYeah, but you know every you know, everybody has a rap sheet in heaven They're all equally
disgusting to God and Jesus had to die equally for all of them and so, know this wholeidea that There's a certain type of sin that's more egregious than other that's just a

(01:06:43):
misunderstanding.
That's not based on anything in the Bible.
So
Anything else guys?
No, thank you for the doing the exchange.
Yeah, I appreciate you having us on.
Yeah.
We're thankful for the exchange and yeah, we look forward to continue using it.
It's a tool.
It's a tool in our tool belt and we will absolutely continue using it.
I highly recommend it.

(01:07:03):
I love you both.
You guys are great friends uh more more importantly, you are faithfully committed to theGreat Commission and relationally evangelistic and and wonderful examples of what we're
trying to do enable laborers to go out into the harvest and um The harvest is plenteous.

(01:07:23):
We don't have a harvest problem.
We don't have a shortage No, we we have more Bible studies going on than than you know Wehave more opportunities going on than we can handle personally in this area uh
The issue is laborers, people getting up off the sidelines and getting involved.
It's one of his requests to us, Things to pray for.
Come quickly and pray for the laborers.
Amen.
Amen.

(01:07:45):
Thank you.
Thank you.
m
go.
I don't know.
I'll find out.
Can you see it there or no?
Thank you Diane.
I started feeling bad for you on like pushing number three.
I'm like bro Diane is sitting right over there.
You need to buy Diane like a cheesecake on the way home.
See how long the money got don't say

(01:08:06):
Um, hour and ten minutes.
not bad.