June 17, 2025 • 22 mins
In the final part of our 3-part series with Abundant Life Podcast co-hosts Ben Arellano and Saso Mendez, we explore the heart of relational evangelism in a broken world.
From the secular workplace to the addictions ministry of Freedom That Lasts, Ben and Saso open up about what it looks like to love people intentionally, share the gospel urgently, and recognize the soul beneath the surface — whether it’s a fentanyl addict or an HVAC business owner.
You’ll walk away with renewed purpose and practical insight for making disciples in everyday life.
📋 Show Notes & Chapter Markers:
00:00 – Building Relationships Through Discipleship
How to cultivate genuine friendships that open doors for gospel conversations.
01:22 – Relational Evangelism in Today's Society
Why the world is more guarded than ever—and how to break through with love.
09:17 – Understanding Urgency in Addiction Ministry
Why addiction brings a unique urgency to gospel work—and how to respond wisely.
14:16 – The Need for Hope in a Broken World
Stories of desperation, demonic oppression, and the only real solution: Jesus.
20:13 – The Equality of All Sinners Before God
Addict or accountant—every soul is dead without Christ and equally loved by Him.
21:53 – Closing Reflections on the Series
Ben and Saso share what The Exchange has meant to them and how it’s shaped their ministry.
22:21 – Call to Action for Evangelism
There is no harvest problem—just a laborer shortage. Will you step into the field?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world become moreeffective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Minooka.
I'm your host.
We're on part three of our interview with Saso and Ben and we're just about to get intohow do you build relationships in secular workplace?
And so if you work in a secular environment, if you work in the corporate world, this isgoing to be some wonderful content for you.
(00:24):
And then we finish off with
What does relational evangelism and discipleship look like in an addictions ministrycontext or working with an addict?
So without further ado, here we go.
You know, you guys, one of the reasons I think we're good friends and I respect you both alot is because you guys are relational.
(00:45):
ah know Sasi here story after story of people you're building relationships with insideUSAA.
Some of the people from USAA that have come to FTL are people that would typically neverdarken the church of a fundamental Baptist church.
They would never, ah and here they are at Friday night in the church.
And Ben, you're also extremely
relational, mean you love people, you're passionate about people.
(01:07):
I whoever wants to talk here and know whoever wants to start but what do you guys believeis, what are the essential ingredients to being relational, building relationships in your
workplace, in your life, with people in your community, in today's American society?
I will say to me, Rebecca will tell you this is I, you know, I put my hand out for ahandshake.
(01:29):
And I'll give you a handshake and but I want more right to go up your arm until we'rehugging and not really knows I'm not really a hugger kind of change that a little bit.
More of a hug on that regard.
And I think that's relational what I want to do.
I want to introduce myself and just work my way into your life for a reason for anobjective.
(01:50):
And
Not to be manipulative, but to say like I care about you as a human being.
And I think at USA, the friendships that I've made um with people is I think genuinelythey know that I care about them and I don't, I can't care about them if I don't love them
like God sees them or God loves them.
Cause that's not within me naturally, right?
(02:11):
That's not a characteristic that, that I have inside.
But when he says that God is love, right?
And how we know
We are part of God is that we love other people.
And I think that's both.
mean, that best exemplifies how I look at people are I try to look at people is this isnot an employee, right?
This is somebody God has put right in my life for a reason, for a purpose, not to drivethem to results.
(02:38):
But that's part of my job too, right?
But primarily my relationship is because God brought him in the door of freedom that lastsfor God brought him through.
Work or God brought me to work here and I think that really changed my life at Target whenI hated working there I really did and God said but I gave you 24 people that you are in
charge of and Will do anything for you and you don't care about them You don't you don'tcare if they go to hell you don't care if they you don't care about their soul And I
(03:07):
really that's where the exchange started with me where I started I didn't know about it,but I'm like, hey that heard this works
So I started to tell people about it.
But I think, for people I know, Rebecca said, you're very relational, right?
I try to be friendly.
But I had to work on being friendly to everybody, because that's not natural for me.
And as they would say, I've taken so many classes to be folksy.
(03:28):
And there's something about everybody that you can have something commonality with.
And to find that tie and to bring it, I mean, even somebody at B-dubs.
You know, hey, can you pray for my dog?
Great somebody that serves you food?
Boom you found an interest he saw you praying and now she wants she built Wow these guysprayer and people are always watching and They're always judging how you react with them
(03:52):
if you're friendly if you're kind if you're loving and I think they're just people thatwalk around oblivious to people that are just With their arms out and they're just saying
I need help
And you're looking for something else or you're looking for I don't know what you'relooking for you but you're not seeing what What what's in front of you and it really
(04:15):
what's in front of you is where we work?
You know where we go shop where we eat all these things where you build relationships withand it's it's funny because my daughter Lainey was here and she thought it was funny that
I had you know Chelsea's You know we you know text so we text about Buffalo Wild Wings.
We're not texting about
anything else and she sent me a picture of her niece, whatever.
(04:36):
And I say, hey, I'm praying for your dog or I'm praying for you or hey, Friday night wehave freedom at last.
We gave her a track, invited her.
And I just think that God has made us relational.
Obviously we know that.
He made us relational like we're dependent on him.
But also that's what people, I think there's so many people that are hurting and really Ilook at people that I have relationships with.
(04:56):
That I never would have a relationship with.
I would not be interested in being friends or even friendly to them in my flesh.
And I think of Gustavo at work.
Totally different human being that I've ever met in my entire life.
For all kind of reasons.
And I think about it and I go, I don't know that he has anybody that loves him or anybodythat
(05:17):
He basically told you like you're like his dad.
He wants me to adopt him as his dad for and then he gets mad at me like this is like areal.
And so these relationships and I think of, you know, people like Brian that came tofreedom that last had no family.
And when he passed away, we held service for him.
And if we did it, nobody would have done that.
(05:39):
Nobody would have remembered his name.
Nobody would have.
He would have been gone.
And that's it.
I'm just grateful and I think Rebecca on the other spectrum my wife is very friendly veryto anybody and everybody and Just has a kind heart right where me naturally I don't have
that kind heart God's worked on me on that, know, somebody you know doesn't say hi to me achurch back in the day I built up my wall and never talked to him again.
(06:03):
Forget them and uh God's really changed my life into that and said, okay, but there's areason why
that person, maybe they're hurting, maybe whatever the reason is.
I've called you to love people.
I've called you and we know there's people right in our red button people in the church.
I'm going to get Pastor George in trouble here that we struggle with that are not easy tolove.
(06:24):
They make themselves at times unlovable with the world's definition.
But God says doesn't matter.
Right.
I love them.
And I just try to keep that perspective of being friendly to everybody.
And then I think when I came into USA for the first time,
I was so grateful for that job that I would say hi to everybody.
Hey.
And I was just thrilled to be there.
(06:46):
And there's people that will come up to me now.
Hey, Rosendo, that I don't even remember.
like, man, when I first came here and I came to the, you know, employee, new employee ororientation, you came up to me, shook my hand and said, man, you're to do great here.
Good luck.
And I'm like, I said that like, yeah, I go, what's your name?
it's Jane.
Like, I don't even remember.
And it's led to relationships and.
(07:07):
I think if you can go into every day, no matter what you're going through, I know Ben'shad a rough week this week, and just say, man, when I go into AutoZone, I'm gonna put the
joy of the Lord on my face.
When I go into Buffalo Water, when you throw them, put the joy of Lord on my face.
When I go into whatever, when I go into church, right, and it's funny, because I go intochurch and I see people that look miserable.
I'm like, this is the highlight of your week.
How can you be miserable?
(07:28):
Like, how come you're not friendly?
How can you not just be bubbling over and excited?
And I think if you carry that joy of the Lord, man, that is attractive to a world that iswithout hope.
And I think that leads to relationship for people when you say you want to do Bible study.
I think part of them is curious to say, man, I want some of that coffee that you drankbecause, man, that's is crazy.
(07:49):
And I think that's so helpful to.
And even on this hike that I did, I can't tell you how many times I said the joy of theLord is my strength.
And it truly is empowering when you carry that joy of the Lord.
as a part of your personality.
And I know it's not me, because you could tell people that know me from back in the day,like that's not who I am.
But God transforms your life and that joy of the Lord is, man, when you're not saved andyou're without hope, you want that in your life.
(08:16):
Ben, tell us man, what about you?
Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm relational.
um But I would say that I'm I'm also um somewhat outgoing, but I'm also somewhat notoutgoing.
So in other words, I like small crowds or one on one or, know, you know, three guys eatingwings or whatever kind of guy happens a lot.
(08:36):
Yeah.
And that's kind of where I like this, my comfort zone.
So naturally, I'm not, you know, super outgoing, you know.
saying hi to people.
I try to be friendly to everybody.
You know, we're supposed to be salt and light.
I definitely want people to see Jesus in me if possible.
And I know sometimes I'm failing sanctification tests, know, because I'm getting mad atthe guy cutting me off on the street or whatever.
(08:57):
And, know, I'm not always thinking about sharing Christ, you know, with the cashier at thestore or whatever.
And it's just things I'm working on, you know, obviously.
But I think it's so important to build those relationships.
Because if you don't have those, if you don't build the relationship, it's hard to speakinto people's lives.
Because anymore, like, I mean...
(09:17):
The world is being marketed to and you know, you get a call on your phone and you look atit and it's like, yeah, do I?
Yeah, red button.
I don't know this guy or you answer it and you know, they start you hear the little pauseand then they start talking.
You already know, like it's it's it's a spam call.
I'm hanging up here, you know, or, know, don't people don't want to answer their doors.
I mean, we go hang door hangers.
And I was I don't even know how effective that really is.
(09:38):
um But people just they, you know.
They're they're they're guarded.
They're very guarded.
And so it's hard to get into somebody's life.
But I think like Sasa said, if you're showing the joy of the of the Lord and and, know,just being friendly, um you know, one thing is that, you know, serving in FTL, I've had my
(09:58):
eyes open to how how what broken this really looks like.
I mean, you know, when I got saved, I was I was broken, but I wasn't I mean, I wasn't inthe gutter and I wasn't, know, on drugs and I wasn't coming off of all these
And there's just people that are just hurting.
mean, or maybe people just hurting.
know, Diane and I have had uh trials in the last few years with family members passingaway.
(10:20):
had a business partner commit suicide.
And we deal with these emotional hurts.
uh We watched one of our favorite uh documentaries, Show Me the Father, and it just talksabout dad wounds.
And there's a whole world of broken people.
A whole world of broken people.
And you have to look at them like Jesus looks at.
(10:42):
It looks at people, you know, uh loving people.
And it's not easy.
It's not easy to always do that.
There's a lot of unlovable people like Sauswell mentioned, and it's not easy, but it'sit's crucial.
mean, this is how we have to this is how we have to see it.
This is how we have to react to this world.
It is is hopeless.
They have zero hope and they don't know it.
(11:04):
uh So with that, it's just it's it's.
uh
It's difficult to get into somebody's life, but I think if you kind of work it into yourlife, like Sasa said, we go to B-Dubs every two or three times a week sometimes.
We're going there in a little while.
We're going tomorrow.
um And those are places where you can.
We have a problem.
I know.
(11:25):
That's another episode.
Yeah, but you build you build those relationships because you're interacting with thesepeople consistently and once they start building that relationship, it's easier to say
hey, how about a Bible?
So you want or you want to come to church or you want to come to FTL?
We have this addictions ministry, you know, come check it out if you want, you know, it'suh it's not like an AA meeting where it's more like a church service, you know, come come
(11:46):
check it out.
It's discipleship.
It's easier to say those and have those doorways and those doors to be opened rather thanpeople just, know, they're just very guarded.
So definitely important to build relationships.
It's not easy and sometimes you just have to get creative.
um You you have to view the world that they are broken and there's a lot of hurt andpeople need Jesus.
(12:09):
mean, Jesus is the answer.
This is what I love about Freedom at Last is because we've had people come into Freedom atLast and say, well, it's weird you guys don't really talk about
What issue are you you in the cocaine?
Are you in the marijuana?
Are you a druggy?
Are you an alcoholic?
And we just tell them, we don't focus on the problem, we focus on the solution.
The solution is Jesus.
Without Jesus, you can't break those chains.
(12:29):
You can go to AA meetings and maybe you can clean yourself up for two to three months, ormaybe up to a year or something like that, but you're gonna fall right back into your
vices.
Jesus is the only way to break those chains, the only way.
And so,
Yeah, building relationships, very important, very important.
And the exchange is also a platform.
It's a vehicle that you can take and get people into the Word, get people thinking aboutthese things and have them ask questions and build that curiosity and ultimately share
(12:56):
Christ.
And yeah, there's definitely going to be some fruit from that.
Yeah, I love that.
um You know, you guys just, you know, both mentioned FTL.
Does that process building relationships, discipleship, evangelism, does it look anydifferent when you're sitting across from a methamphetamine addict versus you're sitting
across from a guy who installs AC units on roofs all day?
(13:16):
You know, um anything you'd adapt for the specialty of addictions ministry.
I would say there's a when somebody's on fentanyl or on drugs or even alcohol, there's amore of an urgency.
And uh it's not I don't always see that with somebody that is in their minds living adecent life.
(13:37):
But when somebody comes to freedom that last at that point, they're desperate.
They may not say it.
They may not.
And sometimes they do say it.
But they they desperately need help.
And they don't know what help looks like, but they know they need.
And at some point, I think it's the God they've been told in their life.
Some point you need God, but not necessarily connected them to how, how do I get God?
(14:00):
How does he exist?
But where and how, and just like Ben said, like if you exist, like, and I think when Bensaid that he was acknowledging there is a God, but he's not personal God to me.
And, uh, you know, I think that's the same thing with Gustavo.
It's not personal yet.
Um,
God's working on his life, but I think it's there's more of a desperation.
And so I think people are um more apt for that solution to to do the exchange or to doBible study.
(14:27):
Not to say the guy with the AC is not looking to that, but I just feel like there's moreof a like I need help now.
Not I don't want to do the eight week exchange.
I need to do the four week.
And if you can meet with me twice this week, great.
I want to get as much as I can.
And I think everybody's different right not every not even any drug addicts or like that,but it typically if they come more than once then they're pretty dedicated to getting help
(14:53):
or Finding a solution and some people come once and we never see him again, right?
They just wasn't for them or they're not ready and I really think what you said to meabout, know the gentleman that we were talking about is that God gave him a moment of
clarity in his life and sobriety for this period of time and
Brian that used to come for that last that God took him home uh With this addiction right?
(15:16):
He never got victory on this side of the of the of the world But he's you know victoriousin heaven But that's what he had like a year of sobriety where God really transformed his
life saved him transformed them sanctified him and Then we saw the struggle in his faceevery time he would come because he was battling When you're not saved right?
You don't care if you sin or not like there's no real tie or dick
(15:39):
No, uh, guilt or no shame.
Like this is what you do.
Like I enjoy drugs and I know I shouldn't do it because it's morally wrong, societalwrong, but it's not really, I'm not offending anybody else.
And I think he really felt the deep pain of hurting God and not having that relationshipthat he used to have with God.
And he's at battle, it struggled with him.
(16:01):
And that addiction was so powerful.
And I think that he just, you know, I don't, for whatever reason, he just could not findvictory, but I just.
I feel like there's just a difference between somebody that's an addict compared tosomebody that's not Even though we're all addicted to something I think drugs and you know
alcohol Provide a more urgency because there's people that have been Narcan back to life.
(16:22):
We had Tony that that's what he said Hey, I was Narcan back.
So he knows that the thin line between death and life and that's it right and then there'sno more chances for you So you need to get this squared away as quickly as possible
And I think you have to be ready, you know um You know we see when we see that like Sosasaid they they're they're desperate and I think you you have to be ready for the change
(16:46):
You know, I think of Tony and you know Tony uh You know, he would talk about you know whenhe was in his uh You know drug swings or whatever when he was, you know on the fentanyl or
whatever he was on
And he was talking about how dark it was.
mean, was definitely like a demonic uh oppression, presence.
(17:08):
There was definitely a demonic presence.
And I think you opened it up.
That's funny, I'm talking to my...
my basketball player today and he was asking me about about drugs and what I thoughtabout, you know, is it a sin?
And I just told him, said, you know, you look in the Old Testament and you see the wordsorcery and the word for sorcery is pharmacay.
Oh, you get for pharmacy and it all ties to drugs.
And when you take drugs, you're opening yourself up to the demonic.
(17:30):
You're opening yourself.
You're opening a door that you don't want to open.
It opens up the door to a lot of sin.
There's actually
uh a demon cult like a satan cult called pharmaca.
really?
Yes, yes comes from that greek word.
Wow.
They acknowledge this connection between being high and being close to satan.
And it is, and that's what it is, right?
(17:50):
But I think that was a motivator for Tony for wanting him to change.
wanted, he didn't want that darkness anymore.
He didn't want a piece, he saw it all.
He saw it, he lived it.
And he was ready, he was ready for something different.
was, like he said, our Ken back to life.
He was talking, he told me about being in a point of life where he just, didn't care if hedied.
He didn't care if he went to hell.
And that's a really dark place to be.
(18:12):
A really dark place to be.
It's like, I think of my business partner, he was battling alcohol.
And I think I talked to his mom a little bit and somewhere in his journal, it almostsounded like he, the reason he committed suicide was just because he felt he was not
fixable.
He couldn't get fixed and he was sick of it.
He was sick of the addiction and so he just, he took care of the problem.
(18:32):
And I think it was very sad because he was in a complete state of utter hopelessness.
And so, yeah.
There's a there's a there's a big difference, I think, between the the addict and the guythat's doing the AC.
But here's the thing I would say the there's no difference in the addict and the AC guythat aren't saved.
They're both just as dead and they both need Christ just as much.
And so I would say that the urgency is definitely the same on both sides, whether theyrealize it or not.
(18:58):
Yeah, and what I love is, you know, we've done the exchange with both Bible study withboth.
Right.
Right.
We've done the exchange with Tony and we've done it with Jake.
And Jake runs this really big, successful AC business and Tony is well, we're actuallygoing to have an interview with Tony.
think it's going to be the episode after this one.
cool.
Right.
And I'm going have Tony on the podcast, but you're going to hear Tony's life and you'regoing to be like, wow.
(19:23):
But that's what I love.
mean, Jesus, he said, I draw all men unto myself.
uh
I do not will that any should perish but that all should have eternal life um You know,it's written there in 2nd Peter.
So I'm just thankful to Lord that he's willing to save all of us
would say the key like he says that right if I be lifted up he'll draw them into himselfand I think the road
(19:43):
Even churches that aren't really fundamental are not doing things, are doing all kinds ofmethod, our methodologies to bring people.
It's not hard, right?
You lift up the solution.
And just like the snake healed the Israelites, they had a look and live, right?
There's this song, Look and Live My Brother.
Same thing, right?
We have to look to Jesus.
(20:03):
I think that's the beauty of the exchange, because I think it does a great job of pointingpeople to a lifted Christ.
I think it's really a God honor.
method of explaining the gospel in real four steps.
Whether it takes you eight weeks, 12 weeks, six months, four weeks, know, God is sovereignand whatever somebody needs, he'll guide you to what that process looks like.
(20:26):
Yeah, and I love the ground at the foot of the cross is level Yeah, right.
So none of us stand a bit an inch spiritually above anybody else And and we do haverespectable sins, right?
There are sins that we feel like well, that's a more respectable rap sheet than that oneYeah, but you know every you know, everybody has a rap sheet in heaven They're all equally
disgusting to God and Jesus had to die equally for all of them and so, know this wholeidea that There's a certain type of sin that's more egregious than other that's just a
(20:53):
misunderstanding.
That's not based on anything in the Bible.
So
Anything else guys?
No, thank you for the doing the exchange.
Yeah, I appreciate you having us on.
Yeah.
We're thankful for the exchange and yeah, we look forward to continue using it.
It's a tool.
It's a tool in our tool belt and we will absolutely continue using it.
I highly recommend it.
I love you both.
(21:13):
You guys are great friends uh more more importantly, you are faithfully committed to theGreat Commission and relationally evangelistic and and wonderful examples of what we're
trying to do enable laborers to go out into the harvest and um The harvest is plenteous.
We don't have a harvest problem.
(21:33):
We don't have a shortage No, we we have more Bible studies going on than than you know Wehave more opportunities going on than we can handle personally in this area uh
The issue is laborers, people getting up off the sidelines and getting involved.
It's one of his requests to us, Things to pray for.
Come quickly and pray for the laborers.
Amen.
Amen.
All right, with that, we'll wrap it up.
Well guys, that's the end of our three part series with Saso and Ben.
(21:57):
Loved having them on so much.
Just again to reiterate, if you'd like to learn more about them, go to abundantlife.fm andcheck them out.
And keep praying with us as we pray to the Lord of the Harvest that he would send forthlaborers.
We have lots of opportunities around us.
If you live in a metropolitan area, you don't have to look very hard to see opportunitiesof uh ministering in relational evangelism and discipleship to addicts and
(22:21):
focusing your secular workplace in a corporation.
And so think about the souls around you and the cubicle next to you and pray that Godwould help us go into the harvest and give us the laborers we need to do it.
Love you guys.
We'll see you next week.
Welcome to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world become moreeffective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Minooka.
I'm your host.
We're on part three of our interview with Saso and Ben and we're just about to get intohow do you build relationships in secular workplace?
And so if you work in a secular environment, if you work in the corporate world, this isgoing to be some wonderful content for you.
(00:24):
And then we finish off with
What does relational evangelism and discipleship look like in an addictions ministrycontext or working with an addict?
So without further ado, here we go.
You know, you guys, one of the reasons I think we're good friends and I respect you both alot is because you guys are relational.
(00:45):
ah know Sasi here story after story of people you're building relationships with insideUSAA.
Some of the people from USAA that have come to FTL are people that would typically neverdarken the church of a fundamental Baptist church.
They would never, ah and here they are at Friday night in the church.
And Ben, you're also extremely
relational, mean you love people, you're passionate about people.
(01:07):
I whoever wants to talk here and know whoever wants to start but what do you guys believeis, what are the essential ingredients to being relational, building relationships in your
workplace, in your life, with people in your community, in today's American society?
I will say to me, Rebecca will tell you this is I, you know, I put my hand out for ahandshake.
(01:29):
And I'll give you a handshake and but I want more right to go up your arm until we'rehugging and not really knows I'm not really a hugger kind of change that a little bit.
More of a hug on that regard.
And I think that's relational what I want to do.
I want to introduce myself and just work my way into your life for a reason for anobjective.
(01:50):
And
Not to be manipulative, but to say like I care about you as a human being.
And I think at USA, the friendships that I've made um with people is I think genuinelythey know that I care about them and I don't, I can't care about them if I don't love them
like God sees them or God loves them.
Cause that's not within me naturally, right?
(02:11):
That's not a characteristic that, that I have inside.
But when he says that God is love, right?
And how we know
We are part of God is that we love other people.
And I think that's both.
mean, that best exemplifies how I look at people are I try to look at people is this isnot an employee, right?
This is somebody God has put right in my life for a reason, for a purpose, not to drivethem to results.
(02:38):
But that's part of my job too, right?
But primarily my relationship is because God brought him in the door of freedom that lastsfor God brought him through.
Work or God brought me to work here and I think that really changed my life at Target whenI hated working there I really did and God said but I gave you 24 people that you are in
charge of and Will do anything for you and you don't care about them You don't you don'tcare if they go to hell you don't care if they you don't care about their soul And I
(03:07):
really that's where the exchange started with me where I started I didn't know about it,but I'm like, hey that heard this works
So I started to tell people about it.
But I think, for people I know, Rebecca said, you're very relational, right?
I try to be friendly.
But I had to work on being friendly to everybody, because that's not natural for me.
And as they would say, I've taken so many classes to be folksy.
(03:28):
And there's something about everybody that you can have something commonality with.
And to find that tie and to bring it, I mean, even somebody at B-dubs.
You know, hey, can you pray for my dog?
Great somebody that serves you food?
Boom you found an interest he saw you praying and now she wants she built Wow these guysprayer and people are always watching and They're always judging how you react with them
(03:52):
if you're friendly if you're kind if you're loving and I think they're just people thatwalk around oblivious to people that are just With their arms out and they're just saying
I need help
And you're looking for something else or you're looking for I don't know what you'relooking for you but you're not seeing what What what's in front of you and it really
(04:15):
what's in front of you is where we work?
You know where we go shop where we eat all these things where you build relationships withand it's it's funny because my daughter Lainey was here and she thought it was funny that
I had you know Chelsea's You know we you know text so we text about Buffalo Wild Wings.
We're not texting about
anything else and she sent me a picture of her niece, whatever.
(04:36):
And I say, hey, I'm praying for your dog or I'm praying for you or hey, Friday night wehave freedom at last.
We gave her a track, invited her.
And I just think that God has made us relational.
Obviously we know that.
He made us relational like we're dependent on him.
But also that's what people, I think there's so many people that are hurting and really Ilook at people that I have relationships with.
(04:56):
That I never would have a relationship with.
I would not be interested in being friends or even friendly to them in my flesh.
And I think of Gustavo at work.
Totally different human being that I've ever met in my entire life.
For all kind of reasons.
And I think about it and I go, I don't know that he has anybody that loves him or anybodythat
(05:17):
He basically told you like you're like his dad.
He wants me to adopt him as his dad for and then he gets mad at me like this is like areal.
And so these relationships and I think of, you know, people like Brian that came tofreedom that last had no family.
And when he passed away, we held service for him.
And if we did it, nobody would have done that.
(05:39):
Nobody would have remembered his name.
Nobody would have.
He would have been gone.
And that's it.
I'm just grateful and I think Rebecca on the other spectrum my wife is very friendly veryto anybody and everybody and Just has a kind heart right where me naturally I don't have
that kind heart God's worked on me on that, know, somebody you know doesn't say hi to me achurch back in the day I built up my wall and never talked to him again.
(06:03):
Forget them and uh God's really changed my life into that and said, okay, but there's areason why
that person, maybe they're hurting, maybe whatever the reason is.
I've called you to love people.
I've called you and we know there's people right in our red button people in the church.
I'm going to get Pastor George in trouble here that we struggle with that are not easy tolove.
(06:24):
They make themselves at times unlovable with the world's definition.
But God says doesn't matter.
Right.
I love them.
And I just try to keep that perspective of being friendly to everybody.
And then I think when I came into USA for the first time,
I was so grateful for that job that I would say hi to everybody.
Hey.
And I was just thrilled to be there.
(06:46):
And there's people that will come up to me now.
Hey, Rosendo, that I don't even remember.
like, man, when I first came here and I came to the, you know, employee, new employee ororientation, you came up to me, shook my hand and said, man, you're to do great here.
Good luck.
And I'm like, I said that like, yeah, I go, what's your name?
it's Jane.
Like, I don't even remember.
And it's led to relationships and.
(07:07):
I think if you can go into every day, no matter what you're going through, I know Ben'shad a rough week this week, and just say, man, when I go into AutoZone, I'm gonna put the
joy of the Lord on my face.
When I go into Buffalo Water, when you throw them, put the joy of Lord on my face.
When I go into whatever, when I go into church, right, and it's funny, because I go intochurch and I see people that look miserable.
I'm like, this is the highlight of your week.
How can you be miserable?
(07:28):
Like, how come you're not friendly?
How can you not just be bubbling over and excited?
And I think if you carry that joy of the Lord, man, that is attractive to a world that iswithout hope.
And I think that leads to relationship for people when you say you want to do Bible study.
I think part of them is curious to say, man, I want some of that coffee that you drankbecause, man, that's is crazy.
(07:49):
And I think that's so helpful to.
And even on this hike that I did, I can't tell you how many times I said the joy of theLord is my strength.
And it truly is empowering when you carry that joy of the Lord.
as a part of your personality.
And I know it's not me, because you could tell people that know me from back in the day,like that's not who I am.
But God transforms your life and that joy of the Lord is, man, when you're not saved andyou're without hope, you want that in your life.
(08:16):
Ben, tell us man, what about you?
Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm relational.
um But I would say that I'm I'm also um somewhat outgoing, but I'm also somewhat notoutgoing.
So in other words, I like small crowds or one on one or, know, you know, three guys eatingwings or whatever kind of guy happens a lot.
(08:36):
Yeah.
And that's kind of where I like this, my comfort zone.
So naturally, I'm not, you know, super outgoing, you know.
saying hi to people.
I try to be friendly to everybody.
You know, we're supposed to be salt and light.
I definitely want people to see Jesus in me if possible.
And I know sometimes I'm failing sanctification tests, know, because I'm getting mad atthe guy cutting me off on the street or whatever.
(08:57):
And, know, I'm not always thinking about sharing Christ, you know, with the cashier at thestore or whatever.
And it's just things I'm working on, you know, obviously.
But I think it's so important to build those relationships.
Because if you don't have those, if you don't build the relationship, it's hard to speakinto people's lives.
Because anymore, like, I mean...
(09:17):
The world is being marketed to and you know, you get a call on your phone and you look atit and it's like, yeah, do I?
Yeah, red button.
I don't know this guy or you answer it and you know, they start you hear the little pauseand then they start talking.
You already know, like it's it's it's a spam call.
I'm hanging up here, you know, or, know, don't people don't want to answer their doors.
I mean, we go hang door hangers.
And I was I don't even know how effective that really is.
(09:38):
um But people just they, you know.
They're they're they're guarded.
They're very guarded.
And so it's hard to get into somebody's life.
But I think like Sasa said, if you're showing the joy of the of the Lord and and, know,just being friendly, um you know, one thing is that, you know, serving in FTL, I've had my
(09:58):
eyes open to how how what broken this really looks like.
I mean, you know, when I got saved, I was I was broken, but I wasn't I mean, I wasn't inthe gutter and I wasn't, know, on drugs and I wasn't coming off of all these
And there's just people that are just hurting.
mean, or maybe people just hurting.
know, Diane and I have had uh trials in the last few years with family members passingaway.
(10:20):
had a business partner commit suicide.
And we deal with these emotional hurts.
uh We watched one of our favorite uh documentaries, Show Me the Father, and it just talksabout dad wounds.
And there's a whole world of broken people.
A whole world of broken people.
And you have to look at them like Jesus looks at.
(10:42):
It looks at people, you know, uh loving people.
And it's not easy.
It's not easy to always do that.
There's a lot of unlovable people like Sauswell mentioned, and it's not easy, but it'sit's crucial.
mean, this is how we have to this is how we have to see it.
This is how we have to react to this world.
It is is hopeless.
They have zero hope and they don't know it.
(11:04):
uh So with that, it's just it's it's.
uh
It's difficult to get into somebody's life, but I think if you kind of work it into yourlife, like Sasa said, we go to B-Dubs every two or three times a week sometimes.
We're going there in a little while.
We're going tomorrow.
um And those are places where you can.
We have a problem.
I know.
(11:25):
That's another episode.
Yeah, but you build you build those relationships because you're interacting with thesepeople consistently and once they start building that relationship, it's easier to say
hey, how about a Bible?
So you want or you want to come to church or you want to come to FTL?
We have this addictions ministry, you know, come check it out if you want, you know, it'suh it's not like an AA meeting where it's more like a church service, you know, come come
(11:46):
check it out.
It's discipleship.
It's easier to say those and have those doorways and those doors to be opened rather thanpeople just, know, they're just very guarded.
So definitely important to build relationships.
It's not easy and sometimes you just have to get creative.
um You you have to view the world that they are broken and there's a lot of hurt andpeople need Jesus.
(12:09):
mean, Jesus is the answer.
This is what I love about Freedom at Last is because we've had people come into Freedom atLast and say, well, it's weird you guys don't really talk about
What issue are you you in the cocaine?
Are you in the marijuana?
Are you a druggy?
Are you an alcoholic?
And we just tell them, we don't focus on the problem, we focus on the solution.
The solution is Jesus.
Without Jesus, you can't break those chains.
(12:29):
You can go to AA meetings and maybe you can clean yourself up for two to three months, ormaybe up to a year or something like that, but you're gonna fall right back into your
vices.
Jesus is the only way to break those chains, the only way.
And so,
Yeah, building relationships, very important, very important.
And the exchange is also a platform.
It's a vehicle that you can take and get people into the Word, get people thinking aboutthese things and have them ask questions and build that curiosity and ultimately share
(12:56):
Christ.
And yeah, there's definitely going to be some fruit from that.
Yeah, I love that.
um You know, you guys just, you know, both mentioned FTL.
Does that process building relationships, discipleship, evangelism, does it look anydifferent when you're sitting across from a methamphetamine addict versus you're sitting
across from a guy who installs AC units on roofs all day?
(13:16):
You know, um anything you'd adapt for the specialty of addictions ministry.
I would say there's a when somebody's on fentanyl or on drugs or even alcohol, there's amore of an urgency.
And uh it's not I don't always see that with somebody that is in their minds living adecent life.
(13:37):
But when somebody comes to freedom that last at that point, they're desperate.
They may not say it.
They may not.
And sometimes they do say it.
But they they desperately need help.
And they don't know what help looks like, but they know they need.
And at some point, I think it's the God they've been told in their life.
Some point you need God, but not necessarily connected them to how, how do I get God?
(14:00):
How does he exist?
But where and how, and just like Ben said, like if you exist, like, and I think when Bensaid that he was acknowledging there is a God, but he's not personal God to me.
And, uh, you know, I think that's the same thing with Gustavo.
It's not personal yet.
Um,
God's working on his life, but I think it's there's more of a desperation.
And so I think people are um more apt for that solution to to do the exchange or to doBible study.
(14:27):
Not to say the guy with the AC is not looking to that, but I just feel like there's moreof a like I need help now.
Not I don't want to do the eight week exchange.
I need to do the four week.
And if you can meet with me twice this week, great.
I want to get as much as I can.
And I think everybody's different right not every not even any drug addicts or like that,but it typically if they come more than once then they're pretty dedicated to getting help
(14:53):
or Finding a solution and some people come once and we never see him again, right?
They just wasn't for them or they're not ready and I really think what you said to meabout, know the gentleman that we were talking about is that God gave him a moment of
clarity in his life and sobriety for this period of time and
Brian that used to come for that last that God took him home uh With this addiction right?
(15:16):
He never got victory on this side of the of the of the world But he's you know victoriousin heaven But that's what he had like a year of sobriety where God really transformed his
life saved him transformed them sanctified him and Then we saw the struggle in his faceevery time he would come because he was battling When you're not saved right?
You don't care if you sin or not like there's no real tie or dick
(15:39):
No, uh, guilt or no shame.
Like this is what you do.
Like I enjoy drugs and I know I shouldn't do it because it's morally wrong, societalwrong, but it's not really, I'm not offending anybody else.
And I think he really felt the deep pain of hurting God and not having that relationshipthat he used to have with God.
And he's at battle, it struggled with him.
(16:01):
And that addiction was so powerful.
And I think that he just, you know, I don't, for whatever reason, he just could not findvictory, but I just.
I feel like there's just a difference between somebody that's an addict compared tosomebody that's not Even though we're all addicted to something I think drugs and you know
alcohol Provide a more urgency because there's people that have been Narcan back to life.
(16:22):
We had Tony that that's what he said Hey, I was Narcan back.
So he knows that the thin line between death and life and that's it right and then there'sno more chances for you So you need to get this squared away as quickly as possible
And I think you have to be ready, you know um You know we see when we see that like Sosasaid they they're they're desperate and I think you you have to be ready for the change
(16:46):
You know, I think of Tony and you know Tony uh You know, he would talk about you know whenhe was in his uh You know drug swings or whatever when he was, you know on the fentanyl or
whatever he was on
And he was talking about how dark it was.
mean, was definitely like a demonic uh oppression, presence.
(17:08):
There was definitely a demonic presence.
And I think you opened it up.
That's funny, I'm talking to my...
my basketball player today and he was asking me about about drugs and what I thoughtabout, you know, is it a sin?
And I just told him, said, you know, you look in the Old Testament and you see the wordsorcery and the word for sorcery is pharmacay.
Oh, you get for pharmacy and it all ties to drugs.
And when you take drugs, you're opening yourself up to the demonic.
(17:30):
You're opening yourself.
You're opening a door that you don't want to open.
It opens up the door to a lot of sin.
There's actually
uh a demon cult like a satan cult called pharmaca.
really?
Yes, yes comes from that greek word.
Wow.
They acknowledge this connection between being high and being close to satan.
And it is, and that's what it is, right?
(17:50):
But I think that was a motivator for Tony for wanting him to change.
wanted, he didn't want that darkness anymore.
He didn't want a piece, he saw it all.
He saw it, he lived it.
And he was ready, he was ready for something different.
was, like he said, our Ken back to life.
He was talking, he told me about being in a point of life where he just, didn't care if hedied.
He didn't care if he went to hell.
And that's a really dark place to be.
(18:12):
A really dark place to be.
It's like, I think of my business partner, he was battling alcohol.
And I think I talked to his mom a little bit and somewhere in his journal, it almostsounded like he, the reason he committed suicide was just because he felt he was not
fixable.
He couldn't get fixed and he was sick of it.
He was sick of the addiction and so he just, he took care of the problem.
(18:32):
And I think it was very sad because he was in a complete state of utter hopelessness.
And so, yeah.
There's a there's a there's a big difference, I think, between the the addict and the guythat's doing the AC.
But here's the thing I would say the there's no difference in the addict and the AC guythat aren't saved.
They're both just as dead and they both need Christ just as much.
And so I would say that the urgency is definitely the same on both sides, whether theyrealize it or not.
(18:58):
Yeah, and what I love is, you know, we've done the exchange with both Bible study withboth.
Right.
Right.
We've done the exchange with Tony and we've done it with Jake.
And Jake runs this really big, successful AC business and Tony is well, we're actuallygoing to have an interview with Tony.
think it's going to be the episode after this one.
cool.
Right.
And I'm going have Tony on the podcast, but you're going to hear Tony's life and you'regoing to be like, wow.
(19:23):
But that's what I love.
mean, Jesus, he said, I draw all men unto myself.
uh
I do not will that any should perish but that all should have eternal life um You know,it's written there in 2nd Peter.
So I'm just thankful to Lord that he's willing to save all of us
would say the key like he says that right if I be lifted up he'll draw them into himselfand I think the road
(19:43):
Even churches that aren't really fundamental are not doing things, are doing all kinds ofmethod, our methodologies to bring people.
It's not hard, right?
You lift up the solution.
And just like the snake healed the Israelites, they had a look and live, right?
There's this song, Look and Live My Brother.
Same thing, right?
We have to look to Jesus.
(20:03):
I think that's the beauty of the exchange, because I think it does a great job of pointingpeople to a lifted Christ.
I think it's really a God honor.
method of explaining the gospel in real four steps.
Whether it takes you eight weeks, 12 weeks, six months, four weeks, know, God is sovereignand whatever somebody needs, he'll guide you to what that process looks like.
(20:26):
Yeah, and I love the ground at the foot of the cross is level Yeah, right.
So none of us stand a bit an inch spiritually above anybody else And and we do haverespectable sins, right?
There are sins that we feel like well, that's a more respectable rap sheet than that oneYeah, but you know every you know, everybody has a rap sheet in heaven They're all equally
disgusting to God and Jesus had to die equally for all of them and so, know this wholeidea that There's a certain type of sin that's more egregious than other that's just a
(20:53):
misunderstanding.
That's not based on anything in the Bible.
So
Anything else guys?
No, thank you for the doing the exchange.
Yeah, I appreciate you having us on.
Yeah.
We're thankful for the exchange and yeah, we look forward to continue using it.
It's a tool.
It's a tool in our tool belt and we will absolutely continue using it.
I highly recommend it.
I love you both.
(21:13):
You guys are great friends uh more more importantly, you are faithfully committed to theGreat Commission and relationally evangelistic and and wonderful examples of what we're
trying to do enable laborers to go out into the harvest and um The harvest is plenteous.
We don't have a harvest problem.
(21:33):
We don't have a shortage No, we we have more Bible studies going on than than you know Wehave more opportunities going on than we can handle personally in this area uh
The issue is laborers, people getting up off the sidelines and getting involved.
It's one of his requests to us, Things to pray for.
Come quickly and pray for the laborers.
Amen.
Amen.
All right, with that, we'll wrap it up.
Well guys, that's the end of our three part series with Saso and Ben.
(21:57):
Loved having them on so much.
Just again to reiterate, if you'd like to learn more about them, go to abundantlife.fm andcheck them out.
And keep praying with us as we pray to the Lord of the Harvest that he would send forthlaborers.
We have lots of opportunities around us.
If you live in a metropolitan area, you don't have to look very hard to see opportunitiesof uh ministering in relational evangelism and discipleship to addicts and
(22:21):
focusing your secular workplace in a corporation.
And so think about the souls around you and the cubicle next to you and pray that Godwould help us go into the harvest and give us the laborers we need to do it.
Love you guys.
We'll see you next week.
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