August 13, 2025 • 28 mins
In this first episode of a two-part conversation, Castleview Baptist Church sits down with Jeff Musgrave — church planter, pastor for 26 years, and founder of The Exchange ministry. Jeff shares how God called him into church planting, the unique challenges and growth barriers he faced, and the vital role community plays in helping a church thrive. He also explains why creating a culture of connection is essential, how The Exchange was born, and tells the powerful story of a couple who came to Christ through a simple four-lesson Bible study.
Chapter Markers:
00:00 Opening Insights on Bible Study Interest
03:08 The Journey of Church Planting
05:54 Growth Barriers in Church Development
09:14 The Role of Community in Church Growth
12:03 Creating a Culture of Connection
15:03 Transitioning to the Exchange Ministry
18:10 Real-Life Impact of Gospel Sharing
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
61 % of unbelievers answered this question.
If a friend asked you to study the Bible with them, what would you say?
61 % said yes.
Of the 30 and above, 42 % said yes.
And I just think there are more people who are open.
(00:24):
Well, good morning, Castleview.
Good to see you again here on the Castleview Baptist podcast.
I have a very special friend today.
His name is Jeff Musgrave, and many in this area would know you as Pastor Jeff Musgrave.
Thanks for being on, first of all, today.
Thank you for having me.
Appreciate you being here today.
You got to tell me, we've known each other.
(00:45):
I think we met when we were looking at the area to start.
Do you remember that?
I do.
I we were going to start the church.
We were thinking about it.
It would have been maybe 2008 early before the church started.
I think we came up to a service.
Yeah, you've been in our church and we were involved in getting the church started.
(01:06):
It's been exciting to us to watch the process down through the years.
You've done a great job here.
Well, we were always encouraged by you all because you did it up there.
You started uh Highlands Baptist Church up in the, it's actually in Highlands Ranch, isn'tit?
Well, it's just on the north side.
It's not actually in the
city or the area of Church.
(01:26):
But it's called Highlands Baptist Church.
Highlands Baptist Church.
How'd you get there?
Did you always, was that something that you always wanted to, did you see yourself as achurch planter?
yeah, yeah.
When I was in uh college, I traveled on a ministry team from our school and 10 of thechurches that we were in for the summer were church planting churches up in New England.
(01:48):
And God just really stirred my heart and said, you know, that's what I want to do.
I want to start a church.
I actually told people I was going to New England to start a church.
Is that right?
Just took a little bit too much of what I thought God was saying.
But in the process, Ed Nelson, who both you and I are very, very close to, Anna grew up inthat church and he had mentioned to me just almost in passing,
(02:17):
you ought to come out here and start a church.
And so one uh day after I graduated from undergrad, I called him and I said, what were youthinking?
Let's talk about this.
he said, well, you finish your grad degree and we'll make it happen.
And so literally he prepared.
We became uh members of South Sheridan Baptist Church and was a church plant from SouthSheridan.
(02:43):
And so that his goal was that we would start a church that would be a church plantingcenter.
Sure.
And so Highlands actually started four other churches besides Highlands.
I love that.
And it was really, really our focus.
We thought that was life.
We didn't know there was going to be any other life after Highlands.
(03:04):
ah What was it about church planting that appealed to you?
I didn't.
I never thought about church planting.
You know, I was in college, we traveled for a couple of years for Pensacola Christian,went to be a youth pastor in North Carolina, and we knew our time there was coming to a
close.
We were there for six years and got a way to pray about next steps and the Lord startedputting on my heart church planting.
(03:27):
I had never thought about it before.
What was it that kind of attracted you to it?
You saw those church plants up in New England.
It was actually pretty exciting to me because with 10 different
church plants in the summer, we saw different stratas of growth and we were in a churchthat met in a bowling alley.
ah There was something exciting about starting carving something out of nothing that Ijust really liked.
(03:54):
Something resonated in you.
I love that idea.
I'll tell people sometimes now, uh if I had the choice, I'll tell young guys, if I had thechoice of taking a church or starting a church, I'd start it in...
10 times out of 10.
gets in your blood.
I guarantee you, you drive by a place and you think, oh, someone could start a churchthere.
Yes, yes.
You see all the, they got the parking, they got the space, they got whatever it takes.
(04:17):
So you came out of South Sheridan.
How long were you there serving on staff with Dr.
Nelson?
Well, I actually never served at South Sheridan.
I joined, I joined their staff as a church plan.
As a church planter.
Okay.
So you got finished with your, with your graduate work.
you moved out here with the idea of let's just go get started with the church.
How old were you?
(04:39):
I was 26.
Is that right?
Would you recommend to most 26 year olds you're ready to go plant a church?
I actually tell guys you can do a lot more than you think.
I think it's us older guys that hold them back.
mean, they've got the drive, they want to do it, but we tell them, you're not old enough.
Sure.
You're a sharp guy though.
You can do more.
(05:00):
I wasn't ready at 26 personally, I don't think to be able to go into.
Well, I'm not sure I was ready.
It just happened.
I don't think you are ever ready.
I think it's a good point.
I read a, we're getting ready to start the church.
I read a book.
It was probably about this thick.
I think it was the title of the book was something like, yes, but how of church plantingor something.
And it backed you all the way up to like 54 months.
(05:24):
before the church starts, right?
So it's almost five years and I'm reading this book and it's going, hey, at 54 months dothis and at 48 months do this and it intimidated me so much that I finally said, you know
what?
I don't have 54 months to be able to start this.
And what I found that I wonder if you found the same, there is a season of a baby churchand it's almost like a little fawn getting its legs under it a little bit.
(05:52):
You don't have to have
every single thing in place, every policy done, every little thing, every dot of everyeye, there is a growing up part of the church.
Did you find that too?
Definitely.
I think though that you and I did it differently than what most people are doing today.
Most people go in with a staff.
(06:12):
They do.
You got a team of at least three pastors.
ah And uh I just think when you go in as a single guy, I'm going to start this church andyou
praise the Lord, God gave you some people that came with, and I think that uh is the corethat you have to have.
But it's different.
(06:33):
And so what you did, what I did, it's different than what most of the guys are doing theseWould you do it differently now if you had a chance to do it again?
You'd get more of a team together.
the thing about the team that I didn't like was that it takes longer to becomeself-sufficient because it just takes more cash.
ah To be able to do it, but I think that people are excited enough about doing it wellthat you can Have people raise the support that they need sure and I think if you can
(07:05):
start with the staff and have a few programs So in other words, we've got somebody who cantake care of children um The problem is when you do it all by yourself you you have to do
it in pieces.
You do.
Yeah Yeah, you can't start everything away around it
Where did you guys meet first?
First Sunday, where were you meeting?
We met in a little elementary school called Willow Creek Elementary.
So you've heard that Willow Creek Church.
(07:28):
I had Willow Creek Baptist Church uh and we met there for two years.
Elementary schools are difficult because they go through seasons and literally we had, Ipreached one Sunday with a bat hanging in front of my face.
uh
So it was less than ideal, but we grew to about 70 people in that school and moved to aGrange building.
(07:54):
And we actually used the Grange building more than the Grange did.
we were in that building for about three years.
And then God gave us the property that Highlands was built on.
lots of miracles.
You know this.
No church planter can ever build.
(08:15):
without miracles.
You look back and say, God, if that didn't happen, if you didn't allow that to happen andyou'd kind of piece it all together.
So you said you grew about 70 in the school.
Church growth experts will tell you that there are growth barriers and know, 60, 70 is oneof them.
100, 120 is one of them.
200, we hit all.
(08:37):
It's strange.
at all of them.
Yeah.
We stopped at all of them.
You know, it's, it's so strange.
Why do you think that's true?
And what do you do um to help go through that?
I've got a couple of thoughts about it, but did you hit the growth barriers also?
Definitely.
I think that part of it is that people get comfortable in a certain setting.
(08:58):
And that's one of the things that really I get real passionate about is helping God'speople to recognize their potential to grow the church.
I mean, that's really the church growth mechanism is God's people.
Yes.
And so if you get into a building and it is 80 to 90 to sometimes 100 % full, um nobody islooking to, man, we gotta grow our church, but you get into a new building and it's like,
(09:28):
man, there's nobody here.
And I think there's excitement levels that go with the new buildings, all different kindsof things.
But I think it's more than anything else, helping your people see the potential and theneed.
to be reaching people.
Yeah.
So you said something really interesting.
People, your church people are the church growth mechanism.
(09:52):
What do you mean by that?
Because don't we just send out the digital stuff?
Can't we just put a video up on Facebook?
Let that be the marketing strategy of the church.
Why would you say that church people are the church growth mechanism?
Well, you probably heard the statistic.
m
the majority of people, vast majority, won't stay in a church longer than six months ifthey haven't found at least five people in that church that they consider their friends.
(10:22):
And so it is our people that allow people to grow roots in a church.
Your programs are important that ministers to people, but that's not really what holdspeople.
What holds people in a church
is when there are people around that become part of their community.
(10:44):
And so that's why it is so critical.
I do think that churches have a lot more potential to actually reach their neighbors.
I don't know that many of us are actually seeing that happen.
And that's really part of what the exchange is all about is helping people to see thatpotential.
But in terms of growth mechanism, your church is never gonna grow.
(11:06):
more than your people are reaching the people that come and visit.
Yeah, but they've got to find that connection.
We say at our church a lot, uh people are not looking for a friendly church, they'relooking for friends.
And there is a difference between those two things.
I mean, friendly church, we don't do this anymore, but back in the day when I was growingup, hey, everybody stand up, shake your neighbor's hand or whatever, some church do it
(11:28):
that's fine.
We just, after COVID, we haven't done that since then.
uh But...
Everyone was really good sometimes in churches I've been in the past and you shake handsand you see each other.
But as soon as the service is over, you know, the groups kind of get together, they go getlunch and they kind of forget all of the newer people.
If you don't make a connection, you may like the preaching, you may like the children'sministry or the music or whatever.
(11:52):
But if you don't have a connection at some point, you're going to leave.
And by the way, the other, the other is also true.
You may put up with the preaching.
You may put up with, with something that's not exactly right, which sometimes churchplants.
You know, you don't have the quality that maybe another church down the road does, but youmake a connection and that makes a big difference.
It really does.
And I, I feel like, the whole idea of being friendly and making friends, two differentthings.
(12:19):
We're in a different church almost every Sunday and, everybody's friendly to me.
I'm the, I'm the speaker.
I'm going to, but my wife sometimes, I mean, she could literally, if she didn't go findpeople to talk to,
She could go through an entire Sunday with no one saying a word to her.
How did you develop that at your church?
mean, our church is listening.
(12:40):
ah How did you develop that in your church?
We've got some really excellent uh connectors and great guest services teams and hostteams.
ah But I feel like that's something you can always do more of and do better at.
How do you develop that in your church?
Number one, you're right.
It has to be a culture.
(13:01):
It has to be something that people just are constantly aware of and want to do.
And so that that's the baseline is you have to help your people really want to do that.
But uh Anna, uh my wife is quite she comes up with ideas and we had a plan that we calledSecret Servants and um
(13:23):
people would sit in a particular area of the building because once people get in and sitdown, that's where no more connections take place.
And so these were people assigned to sit down.
They had no badge.
And their job was if someone came into your area, you just be friendly to them.
You talk to them.
You invite them to lunch afterwards.
(13:47):
it...
what we felt like we were trying to do is find the people that were naturally connectorsand then give them kind of a region in the building to be responsible for.
That's great.
We have a lady in our church, I've had several people tell me, uh and her name is Wanda.
And if you're sitting in her section, she's gonna let you know, hey, you're in my sectionand I wanna know everyone in my, you know, not that she has a job, but I just sit over
(14:14):
here.
And we have hosts and we don't always put our host in badges because we want them to feellike, okay, these are, and they are normal church members, but we want you just to make
sure that you're talking to people and organic conversations and all of that.
So it doesn't happen by accident.
You know, back in the day, if someone came to our church and visited a few weeks,
(14:36):
always went to see them.
It was what pastors did in those days.
And I would always hear them say, oh yeah, I met, and they would name, guy named HowardLong.
Howard was just one of those guys that was so friendly.
(14:57):
And he would connect with people, he would ask them to come sit with them, he would takethem to dinner afterwards.
And I would always, mean, literally, I never went to anybody's house that they didn't meetHoward.
Howard is about six foot five and uh he was a big man.
Yeah, couldn't miss him.
And when Howard hugged you and he was a hugger, I you have been hugged.
(15:23):
And he was really kind of the centerpiece and part of what helped us build that culture.
Yeah, interesting.
We've got we've got two or three people that on a regular basis.
I mean if I talk to a guest like you're talking about will name uh One or two or three ofthese people and I just want to stop here for a minute and talk to our church uh We are
(15:43):
equipping every one of you.
We're knighting every one of you.
You have the responsibility We're giving you that charge.
We want every person
to be that kind of person in our church.
That's a culture thing.
It's not, uh you know, a couple people can do it and it doesn't become your culture, butwhen everyone is on mission with that, and our mission is leading people into a growing
(16:05):
relationship with Jesus, and we preach all the time that, listen, it doesn't matter whatyour role is, you are help, you may not be preaching the message, you're preparing people
to receive.
the message.
You can be working in nursery and by your kindness and your organization and the way thatyou took that child, mom can leave now and go sit down and go, my child's taken care of.
(16:27):
I don't have to worry.
I can listen to what I'm about to listen to.
There's a lot of pieces and what you've heard this stat, people make a decision in thefirst moments.
I mean, it's just before the preaching ever happens.
Now the preaching can turn them off and they can not choose not to come back then.
But before the preaching even starts, sometimes before the music starts, they're deciding,is this a place I could ever come back to?
(16:55):
Well, and you've heard this before, you know, people who tell you about how did you findCastleview, and they'll say something like this, you know, I walked in the door and knew I
was home.
And there is just something that helps people recognize this is a place where I can feelconnected.
(17:15):
I like the word connected better than I like the word comfortable because there are someuncomfortable moments in church.
Sure, sure.
But but the the connection is what keeps me there.
That's right.
And that that doesn't just happen from the platform.
Yeah, that happens primarily by the way that people are handling them as they as they comeinto the door.
Absolutely.
So you you started in that school, you were there for about two years.
(17:38):
did you go where did you go from there?
We went to a Grange building and back in Inverness, often
office park way back in the back part of that area was a new building.
The Grange building in that area had been torn down because I-25 was expanded and theybuilt them a new building, but it was way in the back.
(17:59):
We had to put signs up to get people to find it.
But it was a perfect place for us, a little incubator for our little church to grow.
Yeah.
Did you find it hard to get people to visit the school?
I know we did, know, people going, we don't want to be in the church that's not going tobe here in a year, you know, the startups.
And we had a lot of people say, listen, we loved the church, but we don't really want toset up chairs every week and be mobile.
(18:23):
We really didn't grow past 80 um until we got our building.
Until you got your building, sure.
What happened in the Grange building was that that church matured into a uh family.
Sure.
Up until then it was just a bunch of people meeting for preaching and it was there that wereally grew into a family.
(18:45):
Okay.
And then you all built a beautiful building there at Highlands Baptist.
What year was that?
How many years in were you when you got in your first building?
We built the building in the fifth year of our ministry.
So God just did a lot of amazing things.
Yeah.
That's miraculous.
We were given the property as a, in the
(19:06):
day 1987, think, it was valued at $1.25 million.
Wow.
It's right on a main road.
You can't miss it.
Yeah.
And it was a gift.
was total.
Nobody paid a penny for that.
uh then the people who gave it to us actually helped us develop the property.
(19:27):
And so we ended up having to build the building itself.
in those days, it was so much less expensive.
I mean, I think we put the building up for less than a half million dollars.
That's amazing.
uh Did you do it in phases?
Auditorium first?
No, we built uh a two-story structure with the auditorium on top.
It was just a, the whole structure was there, but it was uh unfinished upstairs.
(19:52):
And then we built uh our Iwana circle downstairs and that became our first littleauditorium.
And then as we filled that up, we finished the upstairs.
Sure, okay.
So you ended up pastoring Highlands Baptist for how many years?
26 years.
26 years.
So I tell people I was 26 when I started it and I I pastored for 26 years.
So I'm going to do this for the next 26 years and see what happens after that.
(20:15):
Well, tell us about what this is now.
You've started a ministry called the Exchange.
Yes.
And was that a surprise by the way to your church when you you surprised to me?
Was it really?
How did that happen?
so just as a little bit of a background, you'll tell us a bit more about it.
You're you go and equip churches.
to give the gospel.
You've done it at our church, you've sat down, we have several sessions, and you equippeople to give the gospel.
(20:38):
How did that start?
it an admissions conference that that started?
What happened to say, you know what, I'm gonna leave the church that I love, that Ifounded, we started, we're in a building, things are going great, I'm gonna go do
something else?
It was actually the tools that we built for our church that
began to be successful.
(21:00):
It was actually effectively reaching people.
And as I developed those tools and was asked to go speak in places and help other peopleuse the same tools that I began to realize this is this is something that could really
impact people.
2001, I was asked to go to Singapore to train a church there.
(21:27):
And I took five of our laypeople with me and we did the, in those days we called it a soulwinning conference.
And that little church really took off and grew because they understood the laypeople werethe ones who should and could be reaching their coworkers, their neighbors.
(21:52):
And as I watched that happen, it just started ticking in my brain.
I wonder if we began to lay people around the world to be able to do this.
What would happen?
And that's really the beginning place in my brain.
And as we developed the tools and began to help our people at Highlands begin to use thosetools, it just said, man, I think I have to leave here and I have to go do this.
(22:23):
I've never considered myself anything but a pastor.
But I feel like the pastor's job is to equip the people to do it.
We tell people that you should be making disciples, but we don't always equip them to doit.
And so that was really what the exchange was all about, trying to help people to be ableto.
Love that.
So needed.
You were so helpful to our church.
(22:45):
And by the way, you've been doing it for a long time.
16 years now.
16 years.
You've been traveling with the exchange.
I would like our church to hear this and then I want to get into a little bit of thegospel and how we can be more effective uh givers of the gospel.
Our church has a family in it, the Rogers family.
Mike, Renee, the kids, great people and faithful members now they've been with us for anumber of years.
(23:10):
We couldn't love them more, just a great, great family.
And they came to Christ through you.
Can you just maybe give us a little bit of a background to that or what happened or howdid that come about?
Well, um it's actually a longer story than I probably should tell.
um Michael's coworker was saved in our church and her husband was close friends to thefamily and he got a brain tumor and died.
(23:41):
Michael came to the funeral and at the funeral, I
read from Van, the man who died, I read from his Bible study, because we had done theBible study with him, he trusted Christ, um how Van said, I know I'm on my way to heaven.
And Michael came up to me after the funeral and he said, I had no idea.
(24:05):
I didn't know you could know.
He said, and I said, Michael, would you be interested in doing the same Bible study thatVan did that brought him to this knowledge?
And so we did the Bible study with Michael and Renee.
It took us four months to get it done.
uh They were very, very busy.
We were busy just trying to find times to connect.
uh And I actually along the way wondered, is this one going to take?
(24:31):
Yeah, sure, sure.
uh But uh the last time we met in lesson four, the Bible study itself kind of gives aninvitation.
And Michael said, yeah, I want to do that.
And both Michael and Renee trusted Christ that night.
Both of them got baptized.
(24:52):
I remember telling Michael, Michael, the next step for you is to come to church.
And his friend Mary Ellen was a part of our church still.
I said, you know, you'll know Mary Ellen.
He's well, I know you now.
I'll just come and hang out with you.
And I just thought that was really helpful for me to see that the Bible study.
(25:14):
gives you those relational uh tools that kind of just bring you close to people.
Yeah, when you talk about the Bible study, are you talking about the four week Biblestudy?
It took you four months or so to get through that with it.
was four lessons.
Sure, four lessons.
But it took us like once a month we did it.
You taught us that when you came through and I had a man that was attending the church ahand they ended up moving to Tennessee.
(25:37):
But I had a man that was attending the church and I was burdened for him and we werehaving some conversations.
ah But you left after that and I said, you know what?
Hey, why don't we go through this for weeks?
You know, and he agreed to it.
And so we started working through that.
And I think it was actually the third week we sat down and we were getting lunch togetherthat day.
(26:01):
And I called him my name and I said, hey, what holds you back?
I mean, what are the challenges or what are the questions you have?
And he said, you know, we've been talking about this.
nothing holds me back.
And we prayed right there at that restaurant and he received Christ.
And it was just a really cool experience.
My wife and I had gone to dinner with he and his wife when they first started coming tothe church.
(26:24):
She knew the Lord, he didn't know the Lord.
His mom had passed away years ago and he struggled with the idea that, well, I don'tbelieve my mom knew Jesus.
If she's not gonna be in a heaven, well, I don't know if that's what I want, right?
I mean, he struggled with it.
And that really helped me to walk through your study and just give him a very simple butclear presentation of the
61 % of unbelievers answered this question.
If a friend asked you to study the Bible with them, what would you say?
61 % said yes.
Of the 30 and above, 42 % said yes.
And I just think there are more people who are open.
(00:24):
Well, good morning, Castleview.
Good to see you again here on the Castleview Baptist podcast.
I have a very special friend today.
His name is Jeff Musgrave, and many in this area would know you as Pastor Jeff Musgrave.
Thanks for being on, first of all, today.
Thank you for having me.
Appreciate you being here today.
You got to tell me, we've known each other.
(00:45):
I think we met when we were looking at the area to start.
Do you remember that?
I do.
I we were going to start the church.
We were thinking about it.
It would have been maybe 2008 early before the church started.
I think we came up to a service.
Yeah, you've been in our church and we were involved in getting the church started.
(01:06):
It's been exciting to us to watch the process down through the years.
You've done a great job here.
Well, we were always encouraged by you all because you did it up there.
You started uh Highlands Baptist Church up in the, it's actually in Highlands Ranch, isn'tit?
Well, it's just on the north side.
It's not actually in the
city or the area of Church.
(01:26):
But it's called Highlands Baptist Church.
Highlands Baptist Church.
How'd you get there?
Did you always, was that something that you always wanted to, did you see yourself as achurch planter?
yeah, yeah.
When I was in uh college, I traveled on a ministry team from our school and 10 of thechurches that we were in for the summer were church planting churches up in New England.
(01:48):
And God just really stirred my heart and said, you know, that's what I want to do.
I want to start a church.
I actually told people I was going to New England to start a church.
Is that right?
Just took a little bit too much of what I thought God was saying.
But in the process, Ed Nelson, who both you and I are very, very close to, Anna grew up inthat church and he had mentioned to me just almost in passing,
(02:17):
you ought to come out here and start a church.
And so one uh day after I graduated from undergrad, I called him and I said, what were youthinking?
Let's talk about this.
he said, well, you finish your grad degree and we'll make it happen.
And so literally he prepared.
We became uh members of South Sheridan Baptist Church and was a church plant from SouthSheridan.
(02:43):
And so that his goal was that we would start a church that would be a church plantingcenter.
Sure.
And so Highlands actually started four other churches besides Highlands.
I love that.
And it was really, really our focus.
We thought that was life.
We didn't know there was going to be any other life after Highlands.
(03:04):
ah What was it about church planting that appealed to you?
I didn't.
I never thought about church planting.
You know, I was in college, we traveled for a couple of years for Pensacola Christian,went to be a youth pastor in North Carolina, and we knew our time there was coming to a
close.
We were there for six years and got a way to pray about next steps and the Lord startedputting on my heart church planting.
(03:27):
I had never thought about it before.
What was it that kind of attracted you to it?
You saw those church plants up in New England.
It was actually pretty exciting to me because with 10 different
church plants in the summer, we saw different stratas of growth and we were in a churchthat met in a bowling alley.
ah There was something exciting about starting carving something out of nothing that Ijust really liked.
(03:54):
Something resonated in you.
I love that idea.
I'll tell people sometimes now, uh if I had the choice, I'll tell young guys, if I had thechoice of taking a church or starting a church, I'd start it in...
10 times out of 10.
gets in your blood.
I guarantee you, you drive by a place and you think, oh, someone could start a churchthere.
Yes, yes.
You see all the, they got the parking, they got the space, they got whatever it takes.
(04:17):
So you came out of South Sheridan.
How long were you there serving on staff with Dr.
Nelson?
Well, I actually never served at South Sheridan.
I joined, I joined their staff as a church plan.
As a church planter.
Okay.
So you got finished with your, with your graduate work.
you moved out here with the idea of let's just go get started with the church.
How old were you?
(04:39):
I was 26.
Is that right?
Would you recommend to most 26 year olds you're ready to go plant a church?
I actually tell guys you can do a lot more than you think.
I think it's us older guys that hold them back.
mean, they've got the drive, they want to do it, but we tell them, you're not old enough.
Sure.
You're a sharp guy though.
You can do more.
(05:00):
I wasn't ready at 26 personally, I don't think to be able to go into.
Well, I'm not sure I was ready.
It just happened.
I don't think you are ever ready.
I think it's a good point.
I read a, we're getting ready to start the church.
I read a book.
It was probably about this thick.
I think it was the title of the book was something like, yes, but how of church plantingor something.
And it backed you all the way up to like 54 months.
(05:24):
before the church starts, right?
So it's almost five years and I'm reading this book and it's going, hey, at 54 months dothis and at 48 months do this and it intimidated me so much that I finally said, you know
what?
I don't have 54 months to be able to start this.
And what I found that I wonder if you found the same, there is a season of a baby churchand it's almost like a little fawn getting its legs under it a little bit.
(05:52):
You don't have to have
every single thing in place, every policy done, every little thing, every dot of everyeye, there is a growing up part of the church.
Did you find that too?
Definitely.
I think though that you and I did it differently than what most people are doing today.
Most people go in with a staff.
(06:12):
They do.
You got a team of at least three pastors.
ah And uh I just think when you go in as a single guy, I'm going to start this church andyou
praise the Lord, God gave you some people that came with, and I think that uh is the corethat you have to have.
But it's different.
(06:33):
And so what you did, what I did, it's different than what most of the guys are doing theseWould you do it differently now if you had a chance to do it again?
You'd get more of a team together.
the thing about the team that I didn't like was that it takes longer to becomeself-sufficient because it just takes more cash.
ah To be able to do it, but I think that people are excited enough about doing it wellthat you can Have people raise the support that they need sure and I think if you can
(07:05):
start with the staff and have a few programs So in other words, we've got somebody who cantake care of children um The problem is when you do it all by yourself you you have to do
it in pieces.
You do.
Yeah Yeah, you can't start everything away around it
Where did you guys meet first?
First Sunday, where were you meeting?
We met in a little elementary school called Willow Creek Elementary.
So you've heard that Willow Creek Church.
(07:28):
I had Willow Creek Baptist Church uh and we met there for two years.
Elementary schools are difficult because they go through seasons and literally we had, Ipreached one Sunday with a bat hanging in front of my face.
uh
So it was less than ideal, but we grew to about 70 people in that school and moved to aGrange building.
(07:54):
And we actually used the Grange building more than the Grange did.
we were in that building for about three years.
And then God gave us the property that Highlands was built on.
lots of miracles.
You know this.
No church planter can ever build.
(08:15):
without miracles.
You look back and say, God, if that didn't happen, if you didn't allow that to happen andyou'd kind of piece it all together.
So you said you grew about 70 in the school.
Church growth experts will tell you that there are growth barriers and know, 60, 70 is oneof them.
100, 120 is one of them.
200, we hit all.
(08:37):
It's strange.
at all of them.
Yeah.
We stopped at all of them.
You know, it's, it's so strange.
Why do you think that's true?
And what do you do um to help go through that?
I've got a couple of thoughts about it, but did you hit the growth barriers also?
Definitely.
I think that part of it is that people get comfortable in a certain setting.
(08:58):
And that's one of the things that really I get real passionate about is helping God'speople to recognize their potential to grow the church.
I mean, that's really the church growth mechanism is God's people.
Yes.
And so if you get into a building and it is 80 to 90 to sometimes 100 % full, um nobody islooking to, man, we gotta grow our church, but you get into a new building and it's like,
(09:28):
man, there's nobody here.
And I think there's excitement levels that go with the new buildings, all different kindsof things.
But I think it's more than anything else, helping your people see the potential and theneed.
to be reaching people.
Yeah.
So you said something really interesting.
People, your church people are the church growth mechanism.
(09:52):
What do you mean by that?
Because don't we just send out the digital stuff?
Can't we just put a video up on Facebook?
Let that be the marketing strategy of the church.
Why would you say that church people are the church growth mechanism?
Well, you probably heard the statistic.
m
the majority of people, vast majority, won't stay in a church longer than six months ifthey haven't found at least five people in that church that they consider their friends.
(10:22):
And so it is our people that allow people to grow roots in a church.
Your programs are important that ministers to people, but that's not really what holdspeople.
What holds people in a church
is when there are people around that become part of their community.
(10:44):
And so that's why it is so critical.
I do think that churches have a lot more potential to actually reach their neighbors.
I don't know that many of us are actually seeing that happen.
And that's really part of what the exchange is all about is helping people to see thatpotential.
But in terms of growth mechanism, your church is never gonna grow.
(11:06):
more than your people are reaching the people that come and visit.
Yeah, but they've got to find that connection.
We say at our church a lot, uh people are not looking for a friendly church, they'relooking for friends.
And there is a difference between those two things.
I mean, friendly church, we don't do this anymore, but back in the day when I was growingup, hey, everybody stand up, shake your neighbor's hand or whatever, some church do it
(11:28):
that's fine.
We just, after COVID, we haven't done that since then.
uh But...
Everyone was really good sometimes in churches I've been in the past and you shake handsand you see each other.
But as soon as the service is over, you know, the groups kind of get together, they go getlunch and they kind of forget all of the newer people.
If you don't make a connection, you may like the preaching, you may like the children'sministry or the music or whatever.
(11:52):
But if you don't have a connection at some point, you're going to leave.
And by the way, the other, the other is also true.
You may put up with the preaching.
You may put up with, with something that's not exactly right, which sometimes churchplants.
You know, you don't have the quality that maybe another church down the road does, but youmake a connection and that makes a big difference.
It really does.
And I, I feel like, the whole idea of being friendly and making friends, two differentthings.
(12:19):
We're in a different church almost every Sunday and, everybody's friendly to me.
I'm the, I'm the speaker.
I'm going to, but my wife sometimes, I mean, she could literally, if she didn't go findpeople to talk to,
She could go through an entire Sunday with no one saying a word to her.
How did you develop that at your church?
mean, our church is listening.
(12:40):
ah How did you develop that in your church?
We've got some really excellent uh connectors and great guest services teams and hostteams.
ah But I feel like that's something you can always do more of and do better at.
How do you develop that in your church?
Number one, you're right.
It has to be a culture.
(13:01):
It has to be something that people just are constantly aware of and want to do.
And so that that's the baseline is you have to help your people really want to do that.
But uh Anna, uh my wife is quite she comes up with ideas and we had a plan that we calledSecret Servants and um
(13:23):
people would sit in a particular area of the building because once people get in and sitdown, that's where no more connections take place.
And so these were people assigned to sit down.
They had no badge.
And their job was if someone came into your area, you just be friendly to them.
You talk to them.
You invite them to lunch afterwards.
(13:47):
it...
what we felt like we were trying to do is find the people that were naturally connectorsand then give them kind of a region in the building to be responsible for.
That's great.
We have a lady in our church, I've had several people tell me, uh and her name is Wanda.
And if you're sitting in her section, she's gonna let you know, hey, you're in my sectionand I wanna know everyone in my, you know, not that she has a job, but I just sit over
(14:14):
here.
And we have hosts and we don't always put our host in badges because we want them to feellike, okay, these are, and they are normal church members, but we want you just to make
sure that you're talking to people and organic conversations and all of that.
So it doesn't happen by accident.
You know, back in the day, if someone came to our church and visited a few weeks,
(14:36):
always went to see them.
It was what pastors did in those days.
And I would always hear them say, oh yeah, I met, and they would name, guy named HowardLong.
Howard was just one of those guys that was so friendly.
(14:57):
And he would connect with people, he would ask them to come sit with them, he would takethem to dinner afterwards.
And I would always, mean, literally, I never went to anybody's house that they didn't meetHoward.
Howard is about six foot five and uh he was a big man.
Yeah, couldn't miss him.
And when Howard hugged you and he was a hugger, I you have been hugged.
(15:23):
And he was really kind of the centerpiece and part of what helped us build that culture.
Yeah, interesting.
We've got we've got two or three people that on a regular basis.
I mean if I talk to a guest like you're talking about will name uh One or two or three ofthese people and I just want to stop here for a minute and talk to our church uh We are
(15:43):
equipping every one of you.
We're knighting every one of you.
You have the responsibility We're giving you that charge.
We want every person
to be that kind of person in our church.
That's a culture thing.
It's not, uh you know, a couple people can do it and it doesn't become your culture, butwhen everyone is on mission with that, and our mission is leading people into a growing
(16:05):
relationship with Jesus, and we preach all the time that, listen, it doesn't matter whatyour role is, you are help, you may not be preaching the message, you're preparing people
to receive.
the message.
You can be working in nursery and by your kindness and your organization and the way thatyou took that child, mom can leave now and go sit down and go, my child's taken care of.
(16:27):
I don't have to worry.
I can listen to what I'm about to listen to.
There's a lot of pieces and what you've heard this stat, people make a decision in thefirst moments.
I mean, it's just before the preaching ever happens.
Now the preaching can turn them off and they can not choose not to come back then.
But before the preaching even starts, sometimes before the music starts, they're deciding,is this a place I could ever come back to?
(16:55):
Well, and you've heard this before, you know, people who tell you about how did you findCastleview, and they'll say something like this, you know, I walked in the door and knew I
was home.
And there is just something that helps people recognize this is a place where I can feelconnected.
(17:15):
I like the word connected better than I like the word comfortable because there are someuncomfortable moments in church.
Sure, sure.
But but the the connection is what keeps me there.
That's right.
And that that doesn't just happen from the platform.
Yeah, that happens primarily by the way that people are handling them as they as they comeinto the door.
Absolutely.
So you you started in that school, you were there for about two years.
(17:38):
did you go where did you go from there?
We went to a Grange building and back in Inverness, often
office park way back in the back part of that area was a new building.
The Grange building in that area had been torn down because I-25 was expanded and theybuilt them a new building, but it was way in the back.
(17:59):
We had to put signs up to get people to find it.
But it was a perfect place for us, a little incubator for our little church to grow.
Yeah.
Did you find it hard to get people to visit the school?
I know we did, know, people going, we don't want to be in the church that's not going tobe here in a year, you know, the startups.
And we had a lot of people say, listen, we loved the church, but we don't really want toset up chairs every week and be mobile.
(18:23):
We really didn't grow past 80 um until we got our building.
Until you got your building, sure.
What happened in the Grange building was that that church matured into a uh family.
Sure.
Up until then it was just a bunch of people meeting for preaching and it was there that wereally grew into a family.
(18:45):
Okay.
And then you all built a beautiful building there at Highlands Baptist.
What year was that?
How many years in were you when you got in your first building?
We built the building in the fifth year of our ministry.
So God just did a lot of amazing things.
Yeah.
That's miraculous.
We were given the property as a, in the
(19:06):
day 1987, think, it was valued at $1.25 million.
Wow.
It's right on a main road.
You can't miss it.
Yeah.
And it was a gift.
was total.
Nobody paid a penny for that.
uh then the people who gave it to us actually helped us develop the property.
(19:27):
And so we ended up having to build the building itself.
in those days, it was so much less expensive.
I mean, I think we put the building up for less than a half million dollars.
That's amazing.
uh Did you do it in phases?
Auditorium first?
No, we built uh a two-story structure with the auditorium on top.
It was just a, the whole structure was there, but it was uh unfinished upstairs.
(19:52):
And then we built uh our Iwana circle downstairs and that became our first littleauditorium.
And then as we filled that up, we finished the upstairs.
Sure, okay.
So you ended up pastoring Highlands Baptist for how many years?
26 years.
26 years.
So I tell people I was 26 when I started it and I I pastored for 26 years.
So I'm going to do this for the next 26 years and see what happens after that.
(20:15):
Well, tell us about what this is now.
You've started a ministry called the Exchange.
Yes.
And was that a surprise by the way to your church when you you surprised to me?
Was it really?
How did that happen?
so just as a little bit of a background, you'll tell us a bit more about it.
You're you go and equip churches.
to give the gospel.
You've done it at our church, you've sat down, we have several sessions, and you equippeople to give the gospel.
(20:38):
How did that start?
it an admissions conference that that started?
What happened to say, you know what, I'm gonna leave the church that I love, that Ifounded, we started, we're in a building, things are going great, I'm gonna go do
something else?
It was actually the tools that we built for our church that
began to be successful.
(21:00):
It was actually effectively reaching people.
And as I developed those tools and was asked to go speak in places and help other peopleuse the same tools that I began to realize this is this is something that could really
impact people.
2001, I was asked to go to Singapore to train a church there.
(21:27):
And I took five of our laypeople with me and we did the, in those days we called it a soulwinning conference.
And that little church really took off and grew because they understood the laypeople werethe ones who should and could be reaching their coworkers, their neighbors.
(21:52):
And as I watched that happen, it just started ticking in my brain.
I wonder if we began to lay people around the world to be able to do this.
What would happen?
And that's really the beginning place in my brain.
And as we developed the tools and began to help our people at Highlands begin to use thosetools, it just said, man, I think I have to leave here and I have to go do this.
(22:23):
I've never considered myself anything but a pastor.
But I feel like the pastor's job is to equip the people to do it.
We tell people that you should be making disciples, but we don't always equip them to doit.
And so that was really what the exchange was all about, trying to help people to be ableto.
Love that.
So needed.
You were so helpful to our church.
(22:45):
And by the way, you've been doing it for a long time.
16 years now.
16 years.
You've been traveling with the exchange.
I would like our church to hear this and then I want to get into a little bit of thegospel and how we can be more effective uh givers of the gospel.
Our church has a family in it, the Rogers family.
Mike, Renee, the kids, great people and faithful members now they've been with us for anumber of years.
(23:10):
We couldn't love them more, just a great, great family.
And they came to Christ through you.
Can you just maybe give us a little bit of a background to that or what happened or howdid that come about?
Well, um it's actually a longer story than I probably should tell.
um Michael's coworker was saved in our church and her husband was close friends to thefamily and he got a brain tumor and died.
(23:41):
Michael came to the funeral and at the funeral, I
read from Van, the man who died, I read from his Bible study, because we had done theBible study with him, he trusted Christ, um how Van said, I know I'm on my way to heaven.
And Michael came up to me after the funeral and he said, I had no idea.
(24:05):
I didn't know you could know.
He said, and I said, Michael, would you be interested in doing the same Bible study thatVan did that brought him to this knowledge?
And so we did the Bible study with Michael and Renee.
It took us four months to get it done.
uh They were very, very busy.
We were busy just trying to find times to connect.
uh And I actually along the way wondered, is this one going to take?
(24:31):
Yeah, sure, sure.
uh But uh the last time we met in lesson four, the Bible study itself kind of gives aninvitation.
And Michael said, yeah, I want to do that.
And both Michael and Renee trusted Christ that night.
Both of them got baptized.
(24:52):
I remember telling Michael, Michael, the next step for you is to come to church.
And his friend Mary Ellen was a part of our church still.
I said, you know, you'll know Mary Ellen.
He's well, I know you now.
I'll just come and hang out with you.
And I just thought that was really helpful for me to see that the Bible study.
(25:14):
gives you those relational uh tools that kind of just bring you close to people.
Yeah, when you talk about the Bible study, are you talking about the four week Biblestudy?
It took you four months or so to get through that with it.
was four lessons.
Sure, four lessons.
But it took us like once a month we did it.
You taught us that when you came through and I had a man that was attending the church ahand they ended up moving to Tennessee.
(25:37):
But I had a man that was attending the church and I was burdened for him and we werehaving some conversations.
ah But you left after that and I said, you know what?
Hey, why don't we go through this for weeks?
You know, and he agreed to it.
And so we started working through that.
And I think it was actually the third week we sat down and we were getting lunch togetherthat day.
(26:01):
And I called him my name and I said, hey, what holds you back?
I mean, what are the challenges or what are the questions you have?
And he said, you know, we've been talking about this.
nothing holds me back.
And we prayed right there at that restaurant and he received Christ.
And it was just a really cool experience.
My wife and I had gone to dinner with he and his wife when they first started coming tothe church.
(26:24):
She knew the Lord, he didn't know the Lord.
His mom had passed away years ago and he struggled with the idea that, well, I don'tbelieve my mom knew Jesus.
If she's not gonna be in a heaven, well, I don't know if that's what I want, right?
I mean, he struggled with it.
And that really helped me to walk through your study and just give him a very simple butclear presentation of the
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