September 30, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave take on a sobering and timely question: Was Charlie Kirk a martyr—or a victim of political assassination?
Together they explore both sides of the debate. Was his death simply political, or was it the cost of boldly standing for Christ in the public square? George and Jeff unpack the tension between politics and faith, highlighting the reality of spiritual warfare, the biblical definition of martyrdom, and the moral issues that often drive political hostility.
They revisit testimonies from Charlie’s memorial, his bold witness on campuses, and even his willingness to confront difficult issues in hostile settings. Drawing from Scripture, history, and the legacy of past martyrs, the conversation points listeners to the deeper call of every believer: to witness for Christ, to pray even for our enemies, and to seize moments of cultural crisis as opportunities for evangelism.
This is more than a political conversation—it’s a challenge to live faithfully, courageously, and relationally in a world that desperately needs the gospel.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Benuka and I'm your cohost today.
And with me today is none other than Jeff Musgrave, the author, the founder of TheExchange.
And we're very glad to be with you.
We're going to be discussing, I think a topic that everybody in the country has beenthinking about, talking about for the last couple of weeks.
(00:22):
And here's the question we're going to be answering in this episode is this, was CharlieKirk a martyr?
or a victim of a political assassination.
when Jeff, you mentioned this question to me, I think it's a very, very interesting one.
think that that is a debate that's happening among Christians now.
And I know people in the church feel differently about the events and how they classifythem, even the memorial and how it was done, different Christians feel differently.
(00:46):
So I appreciate that we could talk about this, you know, talk about it biblically.
So what would you, how would you, how have you answered the question in your own mind?
So we're asking, is he a martyr?
Or is he, you know, was he assassinated as a political person?
And my answer is yes.
I mean, he he was a victim of political assassination.
(01:07):
There's no question about that.
But but he also was living and and standing for Jesus Christ proclaiming the gospelboldly.
And I have no doubt that that
Uh, Stanford, Jesus Christ was a part of, uh, the desire.
I, I, just between you and me, I am a, I believe in conspiracy theories and, the biggestconspiracy theory.
(01:34):
I'm, it's a bit of a joke is this.
And that is that there is a conspirator named Satan who is fighting against everything wedo.
And, uh, this spiritual battle that we're in as Christians is real.
And I have no doubt that Charlie was indeed a victim in this uh spiritual war that we'refighting.
(01:58):
I mean, I really would agree with you in terms of, you know, we know that there's ahierarchy in that dimension among Satan and his demons that there are, you know, he's
delegated power and authority in a certain strata.
So I really don't believe that Lucifer knows my name.
um Maybe he knows your name, but we know he's not omniscient.
(02:18):
He doesn't know what every human in the planet is doing all the time the same way Goddoes.
But I do believe that the
the halls that Satan walks are the halls of power and the halls of influence.
And I really believe he knew Charlie's name.
I really believe he knew he was, Charlie was was a thorn in his side.
And, um, and, when you put yourself out there like that and you become known by the enemy,and I'm talking about the spiritual enemy, um, you really do put a target on your back.
(02:43):
And, um, and when you look at what happened and why it happened and the thinking and themental, the mental thoughts of the person who pulled the trigger, I mean, it's nothing
short.
of satanic.
Hmm.
Hmm.
You know, it's interesting that you would mention it exactly that way.
I just read this morning, Ephesians chapter six.
(03:04):
And of course, uh I was actually questioning why so many times it talks about uh rulersand principalities and, and, it goes on and on and on and, and describes layers of, of the
enemy.
and uh it is interesting that God gives us glimpses but not clearer explanation and Ithink he doesn't want us to be preoccupied with that nor the danger with this exception.
(03:36):
I the reason Paul was telling us about the fact that we are in literally physical mortalbattle with these uh
spiritual enemies is that we are to be wearing the armor.
And I think it's interesting that Charlie Kirk would often admonish his co-workers to puton your spiritual armor and wear that spiritual armor, recognizing he was in a spiritual
(04:04):
battle.
Yep, yeah he did.
For him the two things weren't separate.
And I'm really curious how you would answer this because I do think there are brothers andsisters in Christ who are genuine brothers and sisters in Christ who love Jesus, who would
say this really was a political thing, not a martyrdom thing.
What would you say to somebody like that?
(04:24):
Yeah, well, I actually have a post.
I'm not using the person's name who posted this because I don't think that's the issue.
I think that this is a question that many are asking.
But let me just read a little bit of the post that will kind of frame that question from aperspective of someone who disagrees with me.
(04:46):
And then we can talk about it.
I want to make sure that we put the other side of the argument out there fairly.
uh
A martyr is someone who willingly suffers or dies for their faith in Jesus Christ,choosing faithfulness to him even in the face of death.
An assassination victim, however, is someone who unwillingly is killed for political orideological reasons.
(05:12):
While their death may make them a symbol of what they represented, it is not the same.
uh
as a deliberate witness of a Christian martyr who lays down his life for the gospel.
So that's that's, by the way, just reminder, I'm reading this from a post on Facebook.
The post goes on to say, there seems to be a confusion between Christian martyr and apolitical assassination victim.
(05:39):
martyrdom is about faithfulness to Christ.
assassination is about politics.
Let's be clear in our language so we can honor
the true witness of those who lay down their lives for the gospel.
Then it goes on and says, there's something unsettling about how quickly we use the wordmartyr.
Are we unintentionally equating nationalism with our faith?
(06:03):
Or has the meaning of martyr itself shifted in our culture?
These are questions we should ask carefully because words matter.
especially when we're talking about the cost of following Jesus.
So that that would be how someone would frame it on the other side of the thought processhere.
(06:24):
And I actually I I do have to say this was written before Charlie's memorial service.
And after five hours of testimony about Christ, testimony about Christ, testimony aboutChrist, this person may have thought a little differently about
Charlie and his uh reason for being on those campuses.
(06:47):
So I have to give that to them as well.
um I, I, I, couple of thoughts that I have about this and you, you may have, maybe Ishould just stop here and ask this question.
What is your initial response to hearing this, this Facebook post?
What I would think is, I think what you said to begin with hits it right on the head,right?
(07:10):
What you said to begin with is it is both.
the false dichotomy that's being set up a little bit in that thinking that you read isthat it has to be one or the other.
And there's a sense in which it qualifies as both.
And here's why.
A particular issue that drove the assassin to do what he did is not a political issue.
first and foremost, it is a moral issue that the Bible addresses directly.
(07:33):
And so that is a moral issue that was in the public square.
So that's why it's both.
From my point of view, that's why I would disagree with that person.
I would say, yes, he was addressing it.
as it stood as a political issue in our society, but it is not a political issue at itscore.
It is a moral issue, and Charlie stood where he stood morally on the issue because of hisfaith.
(07:59):
That's how I would say it.
and I think that we would all recognize that Charlie um spoke about the right and wrong inpolitics because of his commitment to Christ in the Bible and the source of right and
wrong in his own life.
(08:19):
Yep, I agree.
I agree.
Yep.
And you saw Charlie's family's faith displayed and his church's faith displayed veryclearly.
I couldn't speak about what everybody that stood up that day believed in the memorialservice, but I could say this.
I really do believe Charlie is saved by the grace of Jesus Christ and understood thegospel to be exactly what the Bible says it to be.
I read another article this week about the preacher who started the Christian school thatCharlie got saved in, and he would attest to the same thing, that Charlie was genuinely
(08:49):
believer in fifth grade.
He trusted Christ as Savior, and that was what drove all of the activity of his life.
So I think that's really uh an interesting.
I think that we have to
acknowledged that Charlie talked about politics a lot.
I mean, that's not a question mark, but he also talked about Jesus a lot.
(09:13):
And it was like, was like what he believed about Jesus and what how he walked with Jesuspersonally is what drove his view of politics.
I was reading another article by a woman named Laurie Vincent, and she was at
uh the University of Utah and was there the day that he was shot.
(09:37):
And she was invited to go to it.
She was, she's actually not a student.
She works on campus there and works in a Christian organization.
She said she saw Charlie primarily as a political commentator and that it was interestingto her.
And so uh she uh went there and then she says, what I witnessed
(10:01):
in Charlie that day was not mere political message, but a distinctly Christian message.
She goes on to say that the first person that asked a question that day was a person whowas a Mormon and was asking a question about Charlie's response to Mormonism.
And Charlie immediately began not only to ask some questions that would cause this personto think about
(10:28):
their commitment to Mormonism, asking where the archaeological evidence of the Book ofMormon, where are the golden plates, those sort of things.
But then he went on and explained how the Bible contains real people, real places.
We have archaeological evidence for all of that.
And then he went on to talk about Jesus Christ and evidence of the empty tomb andwitnessed about Jesus Christ.
(10:52):
And she said, it didn't stop at the fact supporting the gospel.
He proclaimed the gospel to the crowd of 33,000 people.
And he said this quote, Jesus Christ is a real person.
He lived a perfect life.
He was crucified, died, rose on the third day.
He is Lord and God of all.
Charlie said to mostly a cheering crowd.
(11:13):
And she said, I was amazed at his strong Christian convictions and convictions about hisfaith and his ability to communicate the gospel.
And so this is a person who was going to hear a political commentator.
And instead she said, I heard an ambassador for Christ.
So I think, you know, while Charlie did talk about what was right and what was wrong, he,did it because of his commitment to Christ.
(11:40):
And, we don't really know the motive of the killer.
don't, um, I personally believe there's gotta be.
more of a backstory to all of this than what we're hearing.
But the fact is, we know this.
This is a fact that Charlie was killed while he was speaking the gospel and speaking aboutright and wrong.
(12:02):
We know that to be a fact.
Well, and I'll tell you how I reacted the day I heard, I mean, was heartbroken.
I literally said out loud, I'm so sorry, Charlie.
And just first thing I did when I went home was played with my children, knowing thatCharlie's children wouldn't be able to play with their daddy until the other side of
(12:23):
eternity.
Wouldn't be able to see him again.
And, but I was overhearing some guys talk at church that Wednesday night.
And they said, well, they've still got the death penalty in Utah.
They still have the shooting squad, shooting line, whatever.
And I just said, guys, we ought to pray for justice, but we should also pray that somebodyis sent to that kid and wins him to Christ.
(12:45):
Somebody introduces him to Christ.
We ought to pray for the salvation of that kid too.
um That kid did make a choice of his own volition and agency.
but he was also fed a bunch of lies that got him to that point along the way.
And so I love what Charlie's wife did in forgiving the person who murdered her husband.
(13:07):
I think that's incredible.
That's the real rubber meets the road of the gospel that happened on Sunday.
That's awesome.
I don't you think that Paul and Stephen are probably really good friends in heaven?
Yeah.
And I, I don't think there would be anyone who would rejoice more except Jesus, uh, that,that Charlie's Charlie's murderer got saved in Charlie himself.
(13:33):
I think that on earth we have to be justice oriented people.
That's, mean, I think our culture needs that.
I I'm not opposed to that.
But I agree with you, as believers, our greatest concern ought to be, let's get the gospelto that young man.
Let's see him repent.
And here's the good news.
(13:55):
Just like the thief on the cross, uh Jesus would gladly welcome him into the kingdom if hewould indeed receive the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
Amen.
Amen.
Yeah, I think it's interesting that uh John the Baptist, I think one of the most famousmartyrs specifically of Jesus day was killed for telling the king that he was living in
(14:18):
sin.
ah He was not.
mean, his death was more attributed to what he said to the king than he was aboutpreaching the gospel, but we still consider him a martyr.
Yes, I love that.
That's a great example in parallel because here there's a moral issue that came to lightin the public square so he had to address it in the public square as the context but the
(14:39):
bottom line is it was a moral issue that God had talked about.
It's the same parameters.
uh Yeah.
You know, I'm just kind of running all of this scripture about uh martyrdom in my mind asI'm trying to think through these issues.
uh Zechariah, uh the uh son of the man who helped Joash, the child king, uh come to power.
(15:07):
uh Joash had him killed and Jesus saw him as a martyr.
In fact, Jesus said that his blood and the blood of righteous Abel would be on him.
And I think that Jesus recognized there's a earthly justice.
And in fact, God himself is going to hold every single human responsible for all of theiractions.
(15:34):
But as I read that uh phrase from Jesus about the blood of the martyrs, I thought ofTertullian.
And you probably are familiar with this quote.
in 81 97, he wrote a book and in that book he says the blood of the martyrs is the seed ofthe church.
And to me, that's the real issue of what we're talking about here.
(15:57):
The reason that it makes a difference to me to see Charlie as a martyr and not just aassassination victim is because I believe that God wants to use Charlie's
life and death as an inspiration to the rest of us to to be more bold about our witness.
(16:19):
That's what what Tertullian was talking about is that when when you kill a believer, youmake believers around him more bold.
uh You cause the unbelievers around him to question Wow, this guy was so faithful that hewas willing to die for it.
And
I don't know about you, George, but it seems like everywhere I go, there are unbelieversright now asking lots of questions.
(16:43):
And I think we as believers need to be uh aware of it, watching for it and ready anddesirous to stand in Charlie's place and answer those questions.
Yeah, I agree.
The opportunity here for us as believers is, I believe, primarily spiritual.
And the book of Ecclesiastes talks about the benefits of going to a funeral, you know,thinking about death.
(17:08):
It is brutal.
It is brutal to have that public of a death.
It is brutal on the country.
It's hard on the country.
It's hard on the conscience of the country.
But it does make people think about eternity.
People are thinking about a 31 year old.
I'm 31 years old.
So immediately I'm thinking as a 31 year old about the brevity of life.
That's why I went and hugged my children.
That's why I'm thinking about upping my life insurance policies because it just starts tomake you think, boy, it really can happen to anybody.
(17:33):
And seizing that moment, I mean, that all of a sudden when we talk about and giving theexchange, going from surface level conversations to soul level conversations, the
temperature of the country across the board right now is at soul level conversation,pretty much in the public.
the whole public square, doesn't matter which side of the aisle, is thinking about thebrevity of life.
And so you don't even have to dig down in that relationship very far before you could say,now we're at soul, now we can turn the conversation, let's talk about Jesus.
(18:01):
I really believe God has given us an opportunity to be a witness.
And I know we're gonna talk about the word witness here in a moment, because I reallywanna know from your studies, as you've thought through this and prepared for this
episode,
How did Jesus define the word martyr?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think that it's probably most people are aware of this, but the word that isquoted from Acts 1 8, where we are called to be Jesus's witnesses, that the Greek Greek
(18:32):
word is the word martyrios or martyr.
uh A martyr is first and foremost, someone who is willing to uh give
testimony, public verbal testimony about something that they personally have experienced.
And if we are a believer, we have experienced the death and resurrection of Jesus Christin our own lives.
(18:56):
We are his witnesses.
But then, of course, the word continues in its um journey through time and in its journeythrough life's experiences.
And those witnesses became
martyrs.
And that's really the growth of the word is that as those witnesses gave their lives, ofcourse, you know that those 12 or 11 apostles that Jesus gave that command to to be his
(19:30):
witnesses out of those 11, all of them were executed.
Of course, John survived his execution and ended up dying an old man.
But all of them gave their lives in martyrdom for Jesus Christ.
And so I really do uh believe the word itself carries with it what ought to be thegreatest motivation of watching Charlie's life and the absence of the empty spot in on
(20:07):
earth because of his murder.
It ought to inspire us to be those witnesses to stand in his place.
Yeah, I remember the following Sunday we were I was here at church while the memorial wasgoing on while I had started speaking with my my growth group my Sunday school group and
we were talking about, you know The cost You know Charlie's death the cost to his familyand I did I did just look in the Bible as you had mentioned Stephen before an axe and you
(20:41):
look at the Bible and
Jesus says very plainly to disciples right up front The cost of preaching this messagewill probably be your life, which we know that the Apostles they were all except one
probably martyred um If not all martyred um And so they're all martyred.
They all eventually themselves face martyrdom.
But but when you look at even the last 2,000 years of church history the price ofpreaching the gospel of Jesus Christ is the price of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ
(21:09):
for some
The price is pretty minimal in comparison to others and for others it cost themeverything.
And the guys who translated our Bible were guys who, most of them, who translated ourBible from Latin into the English and put it in common vernacular, were guys who paid for
that with their lives.
mean, people salted their beers with gunpowder, them to a wooden pole in a public square,and then put wood at the bottom, burned them, and by the time the fire cut up to their
(21:35):
beard, you could imagine what happened.
history, Christian history, has always been bloody.
It has always been bloody.
And it's what happens when you speak truth to lie.
Satan hates it.
But what Jesus says is the gates of hell will not prevail against us.
And that's why, and I know we're going to talk about it, the blood of the martyrs is theseed of the church.
(21:57):
It's like the more you try to stomp it out, the more it spreads.
Yeah, you used the word stomp it out.
Watchman Nee died in a Chinese prison for preaching the gospel.
But before he was arrested, he was asked as in late 1940s, there was a, or excuse me,1940s, 1940s, excuse me, there was a
(22:27):
growing of no longer are we allowed to preach and of course we know about the stamps andtheir martyrdom during that time period.
Watchman was asked to preach to a group about that and he knew there were spies in theroom.
If he said anything negative about the government and persecution, he was going to beimmediately arrested and so he preached
(22:54):
a silent message.
He preached a parable in mime and he took a glass and he glared at it and then he threw iton the ground and of course it's shattered and then he began to stomp on the larger pieces
of it and and and just uh shatter it more and more and more and even began to pick up andthrow some of the pieces in the air and of course those spies were confused and had
(23:20):
nothing to report.
but all the pastors in the room understood what he was doing.
He was in the parable, he was representing the government, and that glass was representingthe church.
And as the government tried to destroy the church, and at first it looked like the churchthat they won, the church is now silenced, it actually just scattered the church and
(23:43):
literally dispersed it to further ministry.
that's exactly what God wants.
all of us to be thinking.
ah I was reading in Philippians where Paul is in jail and he writes to the Philippianbrothers, he says, I want you to know brothers that what has happened to me has really
(24:05):
served to the advance of the gospel.
And I cannot help but think if Charlie could talk to us today that he would say this, Iwant you to know brothers and sisters that what happened to me
has really served to advance the gospel so that it has become known throughout the whole,and he says, imperial guard, the people who Charlie had contact with, 100 million people
(24:33):
downloaded that memorial service.
Probably more people heard the gospel all at one time than any other time in history.
That's the furtherance of the gospel.
And then he goes on and Paul says, you know, there are some people who are not doing thisquite right.
And I think that we all recognize, um, not everybody who's talking about Charlie istalking about the, the pure, clean, um, gospel of Jesus Christ saved by faith and faith
(25:05):
alone.
Uh, but Paul said this, so
whether they are doing it out of selfish ambition or sincerely, what then?
Only in every way, whether in pretense or truth, Christ is proclaimed and in that Irejoice.
And I really do believe that that's what we ought to be thinking, that's what we ought tobe crying out in our minds right now.
(25:29):
I'm so glad you brought this up because it relieves a concern in my mind.
love that pat—I mean, feel like Paul just—the way you brought what just Paul just said isso encouraging because it reveals, in any circumstance there are people who use it for
God's good and there are people who use it for their good.
And um you had different type of people who believe different things, get up and talkabout Jesus and mean different things.
(25:56):
by what they said the gospel was than what sometimes we mean.
The vice president is a Catholic.
um Tulsi Gabbard is probably closest to being a spiritism is kind of her worldview.
ah Don't know the exact worldview of some of the other folks, ah but I will say this, thepreacher that got up that preached, preached the gospel of Jesus Christ very clearly from
(26:21):
scripture and the worship that was.
that was done was done by those who really love believe in our Lord Jesus Christ the sameLord Jesus Christ we see in the Gospels but but but you look at all that and Paul is just
admitting in what you just said of course when when when a Christian dies for somethingthey believe morally based on what the Bible said when they're martyred in that way
(26:43):
they're gonna be people who use that moment for different things that's just we understandthat
Yeah.
I, you know, Jesus said there's gonna be wheat, there's gonna be tears.
It's not our job to separate them.
Our job is to be wheat and to teach truth.
And I, this is kind of bottom line in my mind.
(27:03):
We need heroes.
If ever there was a time in which we need heroes and let's let's not lift Charlie up toohigh.
It's not that's appropriate.
Charlie wouldn't want that.
But let's not lose the opportunity to be inspired by his life and his death and and try tobe a little more like him.
Try to be a little more bold.
(27:26):
Charlie loved the saying I want to make heaven crowded.
And I don't know about you, but that inspires me.
I want to think in terms of being more bold.
I want to think in terms of um listening well to people, finding out what's keeping themfrom Jesus and helping them to see the truth.
(27:50):
I really do want to use these moments to inspire me to be more effective and to be more uh
active.
You know, I was um watching a clip, you know, obviously there's a ton of clips circulatingabout Charlie Kirk in different moments.
He was on camera or whatever.
There's a clip that was circulating.
He went on a podcast.
(28:11):
I'm not going to mention the name of the podcast because the people on that podcast arepretty vile.
And to put it candidly, the women on that podcast are in the pornography industry.
And Charlie went on that podcast to confront pornography as a moral issue that is adetriment to our society and what he believed as a Christian.
And one of the girls just unabashed, unashamed, and really in a moment to try to beprovocative and to pin him down and kind of embarrass him because Charlie had admitted in
(28:40):
the public square, he at one point had struggled with pornography as a young person.
And she said, well, did you ever look at me?
And he said, no, I didn't know you when I was at that age.
She goes, well, that's just the right answer because your wife is watching.
I mean, she was really, really after him and here she's sitting right next to him.
I thought about as a pastor and as a Christian and as a man, I don't think I'd have thecourage to even enter that room and put myself in a place.
(29:08):
But this was his answer to her.
You are not living up to the God given image bearer you're supposed to be.
There's no way you're fulfilled.
that you have so damaged your soul by what you do and I just pray that you'd find thehighest purpose of your skills and abilities and talents that God has given you that you'd
(29:30):
find that fulfillment in God himself.
He said that to her.
And of course she continued to be, you know, resistant and say, well that is the God-giventalent I have.
And he goes, yeah, but that's not the highest use of that thing that God has given you.
He intends you to be married.
And so,
How many of us, I really, just for a second, be real, how many of us would have thecourage to enter that den?
(29:51):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that, um, all of us have to use wisdom and where and how and when, and use thedoors God opens to us.
But the key is that we need to be praying for each other.
Ephesians six, 18 to 20 says, making supplication for all the saints.
And Paul says, and also for me, that the words may be given to me and opening my mouth.
(30:18):
boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador, that I maydeclare it boldly as I ought to speak.
And that's kind of my last word, George.
I'm asking God to help all of us to open our mouths and speak boldly.
(30:41):
And I'll also say something really important you say, important we don't deify Charlie.
He wouldn't want that.
The other thing I think is really important is make a distinction between what God hascalled us to do as believers in the specific mission that Charlie had providentially given
to him by God.
All the doors that had to open for you to be the person that Charlie was.
It was no accident that God gave him that stage.
(31:03):
And so the only way you could achieve what he did at the age of 31 is if
God had touched what you were doing, right?
However, I'll say this because I've encountered people in my church who, for instance, ohthey have people in their family who self-deported out of obedience to Romans chapter 13
(31:23):
because they're believers but who were brought here as minors and are dealing with therealities of the immigration issue.
It hits right in their living room because dad's not there and all the children and momhave residency but dad's on the inside because dad obeyed God and
somebody like Charlie was pretty blunt and spoke and didn't pull any punches when it cameto immigration and was doing that more as a political issue.
(31:52):
You one of the things I said to her was, because she said to me, yeah, but you know,there's some things that you agree with everything Charlie Kirk said.
And I said this, I don't think there's a certain policy.
as a citizen of the United States of America, not as a pastor, as citizen of the UnitedStates of America.
There's not a single policy that I've heard from Charlie Kirk that I disagree with.
(32:12):
As a pastor, I wouldn't have said everything he said the way he said it.
We have two different roles.
So I wanted her to know I was gonna minister to her as a pastor, that my role and whatJesus has called me to, and what your role as a listener, as a person in the harvest and
going out to labor and winning people to Christ in your community, what our role is asChristians in that regard and evangelism and...
Relational evangelism discipleship is not the same mission and stage that God gave Charliegreater We we kind of be careful.
(32:36):
We don't conflate the two and decide I'm gonna do everything he did the way he did it No,we share a worldview with Charlie Kirk ah But he had a very distinct mission and and God
gave him a door that he doesn't give everybody and so if you go into your neighborhood andDecide and we talk about this all the time on the podcast.
(32:57):
I'm gonna now become confrontational
Hmm.
in my approach.
You could come away from Charlie's legacy taking away the wrong thing.
What we have to do is say no, this worldview is worth dying for.
It's all the more purpose to be more relational right now.
In fact, what I want to talk about next week is one of my takeaways from Charlie is thathe had conversations with people and I want to, I want to use that word conversations.
(33:26):
And so I do think that we can learn some things.
don't have to learn everything.
Yes.
Amen.
Well, thank you guys so much for listening.
um I do want to say I'm so excited.
I don't know if you know this, Jeff, we are about 400 downloads away from 10,000 downloadson the podcast.
And that's because you guys are telling other people about it, recommending it.
If it's encouraging to you, you might be telling your friends, family, people in yourchurch.
(33:48):
And we'd ask you to keep doing that.
That really is the way the podcast gets out.
We hope that it's a blessing to you guys in the harvest.
We hope to encourage you pray that you
Pray with us to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers because rightnow we don't have a harvest problem.
We have a labor shortage and we need Jesus to help us.
We need Jesus to intervene.
We love you guys and we'll see you next week.
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Benuka and I'm your cohost today.
And with me today is none other than Jeff Musgrave, the author, the founder of TheExchange.
And we're very glad to be with you.
We're going to be discussing, I think a topic that everybody in the country has beenthinking about, talking about for the last couple of weeks.
(00:22):
And here's the question we're going to be answering in this episode is this, was CharlieKirk a martyr?
or a victim of a political assassination.
when Jeff, you mentioned this question to me, I think it's a very, very interesting one.
think that that is a debate that's happening among Christians now.
And I know people in the church feel differently about the events and how they classifythem, even the memorial and how it was done, different Christians feel differently.
(00:46):
So I appreciate that we could talk about this, you know, talk about it biblically.
So what would you, how would you, how have you answered the question in your own mind?
So we're asking, is he a martyr?
Or is he, you know, was he assassinated as a political person?
And my answer is yes.
I mean, he he was a victim of political assassination.
(01:07):
There's no question about that.
But but he also was living and and standing for Jesus Christ proclaiming the gospelboldly.
And I have no doubt that that
Uh, Stanford, Jesus Christ was a part of, uh, the desire.
I, I, just between you and me, I am a, I believe in conspiracy theories and, the biggestconspiracy theory.
(01:34):
I'm, it's a bit of a joke is this.
And that is that there is a conspirator named Satan who is fighting against everything wedo.
And, uh, this spiritual battle that we're in as Christians is real.
And I have no doubt that Charlie was indeed a victim in this uh spiritual war that we'refighting.
(01:58):
I mean, I really would agree with you in terms of, you know, we know that there's ahierarchy in that dimension among Satan and his demons that there are, you know, he's
delegated power and authority in a certain strata.
So I really don't believe that Lucifer knows my name.
um Maybe he knows your name, but we know he's not omniscient.
(02:18):
He doesn't know what every human in the planet is doing all the time the same way Goddoes.
But I do believe that the
the halls that Satan walks are the halls of power and the halls of influence.
And I really believe he knew Charlie's name.
I really believe he knew he was, Charlie was was a thorn in his side.
And, um, and, when you put yourself out there like that and you become known by the enemy,and I'm talking about the spiritual enemy, um, you really do put a target on your back.
(02:43):
And, um, and when you look at what happened and why it happened and the thinking and themental, the mental thoughts of the person who pulled the trigger, I mean, it's nothing
short.
of satanic.
Hmm.
Hmm.
You know, it's interesting that you would mention it exactly that way.
I just read this morning, Ephesians chapter six.
(03:04):
And of course, uh I was actually questioning why so many times it talks about uh rulersand principalities and, and, it goes on and on and on and, and describes layers of, of the
enemy.
and uh it is interesting that God gives us glimpses but not clearer explanation and Ithink he doesn't want us to be preoccupied with that nor the danger with this exception.
(03:36):
I the reason Paul was telling us about the fact that we are in literally physical mortalbattle with these uh
spiritual enemies is that we are to be wearing the armor.
And I think it's interesting that Charlie Kirk would often admonish his co-workers to puton your spiritual armor and wear that spiritual armor, recognizing he was in a spiritual
(04:04):
battle.
Yep, yeah he did.
For him the two things weren't separate.
And I'm really curious how you would answer this because I do think there are brothers andsisters in Christ who are genuine brothers and sisters in Christ who love Jesus, who would
say this really was a political thing, not a martyrdom thing.
What would you say to somebody like that?
(04:24):
Yeah, well, I actually have a post.
I'm not using the person's name who posted this because I don't think that's the issue.
I think that this is a question that many are asking.
But let me just read a little bit of the post that will kind of frame that question from aperspective of someone who disagrees with me.
(04:46):
And then we can talk about it.
I want to make sure that we put the other side of the argument out there fairly.
uh
A martyr is someone who willingly suffers or dies for their faith in Jesus Christ,choosing faithfulness to him even in the face of death.
An assassination victim, however, is someone who unwillingly is killed for political orideological reasons.
(05:12):
While their death may make them a symbol of what they represented, it is not the same.
uh
as a deliberate witness of a Christian martyr who lays down his life for the gospel.
So that's that's, by the way, just reminder, I'm reading this from a post on Facebook.
The post goes on to say, there seems to be a confusion between Christian martyr and apolitical assassination victim.
(05:39):
martyrdom is about faithfulness to Christ.
assassination is about politics.
Let's be clear in our language so we can honor
the true witness of those who lay down their lives for the gospel.
Then it goes on and says, there's something unsettling about how quickly we use the wordmartyr.
Are we unintentionally equating nationalism with our faith?
(06:03):
Or has the meaning of martyr itself shifted in our culture?
These are questions we should ask carefully because words matter.
especially when we're talking about the cost of following Jesus.
So that that would be how someone would frame it on the other side of the thought processhere.
(06:24):
And I actually I I do have to say this was written before Charlie's memorial service.
And after five hours of testimony about Christ, testimony about Christ, testimony aboutChrist, this person may have thought a little differently about
Charlie and his uh reason for being on those campuses.
(06:47):
So I have to give that to them as well.
um I, I, I, couple of thoughts that I have about this and you, you may have, maybe Ishould just stop here and ask this question.
What is your initial response to hearing this, this Facebook post?
What I would think is, I think what you said to begin with hits it right on the head,right?
(07:10):
What you said to begin with is it is both.
the false dichotomy that's being set up a little bit in that thinking that you read isthat it has to be one or the other.
And there's a sense in which it qualifies as both.
And here's why.
A particular issue that drove the assassin to do what he did is not a political issue.
first and foremost, it is a moral issue that the Bible addresses directly.
(07:33):
And so that is a moral issue that was in the public square.
So that's why it's both.
From my point of view, that's why I would disagree with that person.
I would say, yes, he was addressing it.
as it stood as a political issue in our society, but it is not a political issue at itscore.
It is a moral issue, and Charlie stood where he stood morally on the issue because of hisfaith.
(07:59):
That's how I would say it.
and I think that we would all recognize that Charlie um spoke about the right and wrong inpolitics because of his commitment to Christ in the Bible and the source of right and
wrong in his own life.
(08:19):
Yep, I agree.
I agree.
Yep.
And you saw Charlie's family's faith displayed and his church's faith displayed veryclearly.
I couldn't speak about what everybody that stood up that day believed in the memorialservice, but I could say this.
I really do believe Charlie is saved by the grace of Jesus Christ and understood thegospel to be exactly what the Bible says it to be.
I read another article this week about the preacher who started the Christian school thatCharlie got saved in, and he would attest to the same thing, that Charlie was genuinely
(08:49):
believer in fifth grade.
He trusted Christ as Savior, and that was what drove all of the activity of his life.
So I think that's really uh an interesting.
I think that we have to
acknowledged that Charlie talked about politics a lot.
I mean, that's not a question mark, but he also talked about Jesus a lot.
(09:13):
And it was like, was like what he believed about Jesus and what how he walked with Jesuspersonally is what drove his view of politics.
I was reading another article by a woman named Laurie Vincent, and she was at
uh the University of Utah and was there the day that he was shot.
(09:37):
And she was invited to go to it.
She was, she's actually not a student.
She works on campus there and works in a Christian organization.
She said she saw Charlie primarily as a political commentator and that it was interestingto her.
And so uh she uh went there and then she says, what I witnessed
(10:01):
in Charlie that day was not mere political message, but a distinctly Christian message.
She goes on to say that the first person that asked a question that day was a person whowas a Mormon and was asking a question about Charlie's response to Mormonism.
And Charlie immediately began not only to ask some questions that would cause this personto think about
(10:28):
their commitment to Mormonism, asking where the archaeological evidence of the Book ofMormon, where are the golden plates, those sort of things.
But then he went on and explained how the Bible contains real people, real places.
We have archaeological evidence for all of that.
And then he went on to talk about Jesus Christ and evidence of the empty tomb andwitnessed about Jesus Christ.
(10:52):
And she said, it didn't stop at the fact supporting the gospel.
He proclaimed the gospel to the crowd of 33,000 people.
And he said this quote, Jesus Christ is a real person.
He lived a perfect life.
He was crucified, died, rose on the third day.
He is Lord and God of all.
Charlie said to mostly a cheering crowd.
(11:13):
And she said, I was amazed at his strong Christian convictions and convictions about hisfaith and his ability to communicate the gospel.
And so this is a person who was going to hear a political commentator.
And instead she said, I heard an ambassador for Christ.
So I think, you know, while Charlie did talk about what was right and what was wrong, he,did it because of his commitment to Christ.
(11:40):
And, we don't really know the motive of the killer.
don't, um, I personally believe there's gotta be.
more of a backstory to all of this than what we're hearing.
But the fact is, we know this.
This is a fact that Charlie was killed while he was speaking the gospel and speaking aboutright and wrong.
(12:02):
We know that to be a fact.
Well, and I'll tell you how I reacted the day I heard, I mean, was heartbroken.
I literally said out loud, I'm so sorry, Charlie.
And just first thing I did when I went home was played with my children, knowing thatCharlie's children wouldn't be able to play with their daddy until the other side of
(12:23):
eternity.
Wouldn't be able to see him again.
And, but I was overhearing some guys talk at church that Wednesday night.
And they said, well, they've still got the death penalty in Utah.
They still have the shooting squad, shooting line, whatever.
And I just said, guys, we ought to pray for justice, but we should also pray that somebodyis sent to that kid and wins him to Christ.
(12:45):
Somebody introduces him to Christ.
We ought to pray for the salvation of that kid too.
um That kid did make a choice of his own volition and agency.
but he was also fed a bunch of lies that got him to that point along the way.
And so I love what Charlie's wife did in forgiving the person who murdered her husband.
(13:07):
I think that's incredible.
That's the real rubber meets the road of the gospel that happened on Sunday.
That's awesome.
I don't you think that Paul and Stephen are probably really good friends in heaven?
Yeah.
And I, I don't think there would be anyone who would rejoice more except Jesus, uh, that,that Charlie's Charlie's murderer got saved in Charlie himself.
(13:33):
I think that on earth we have to be justice oriented people.
That's, mean, I think our culture needs that.
I I'm not opposed to that.
But I agree with you, as believers, our greatest concern ought to be, let's get the gospelto that young man.
Let's see him repent.
And here's the good news.
(13:55):
Just like the thief on the cross, uh Jesus would gladly welcome him into the kingdom if hewould indeed receive the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
Amen.
Amen.
Yeah, I think it's interesting that uh John the Baptist, I think one of the most famousmartyrs specifically of Jesus day was killed for telling the king that he was living in
(14:18):
sin.
ah He was not.
mean, his death was more attributed to what he said to the king than he was aboutpreaching the gospel, but we still consider him a martyr.
Yes, I love that.
That's a great example in parallel because here there's a moral issue that came to lightin the public square so he had to address it in the public square as the context but the
(14:39):
bottom line is it was a moral issue that God had talked about.
It's the same parameters.
uh Yeah.
You know, I'm just kind of running all of this scripture about uh martyrdom in my mind asI'm trying to think through these issues.
uh Zechariah, uh the uh son of the man who helped Joash, the child king, uh come to power.
(15:07):
uh Joash had him killed and Jesus saw him as a martyr.
In fact, Jesus said that his blood and the blood of righteous Abel would be on him.
And I think that Jesus recognized there's a earthly justice.
And in fact, God himself is going to hold every single human responsible for all of theiractions.
(15:34):
But as I read that uh phrase from Jesus about the blood of the martyrs, I thought ofTertullian.
And you probably are familiar with this quote.
in 81 97, he wrote a book and in that book he says the blood of the martyrs is the seed ofthe church.
And to me, that's the real issue of what we're talking about here.
(15:57):
The reason that it makes a difference to me to see Charlie as a martyr and not just aassassination victim is because I believe that God wants to use Charlie's
life and death as an inspiration to the rest of us to to be more bold about our witness.
(16:19):
That's what what Tertullian was talking about is that when when you kill a believer, youmake believers around him more bold.
uh You cause the unbelievers around him to question Wow, this guy was so faithful that hewas willing to die for it.
And
I don't know about you, George, but it seems like everywhere I go, there are unbelieversright now asking lots of questions.
(16:43):
And I think we as believers need to be uh aware of it, watching for it and ready anddesirous to stand in Charlie's place and answer those questions.
Yeah, I agree.
The opportunity here for us as believers is, I believe, primarily spiritual.
And the book of Ecclesiastes talks about the benefits of going to a funeral, you know,thinking about death.
(17:08):
It is brutal.
It is brutal to have that public of a death.
It is brutal on the country.
It's hard on the country.
It's hard on the conscience of the country.
But it does make people think about eternity.
People are thinking about a 31 year old.
I'm 31 years old.
So immediately I'm thinking as a 31 year old about the brevity of life.
That's why I went and hugged my children.
That's why I'm thinking about upping my life insurance policies because it just starts tomake you think, boy, it really can happen to anybody.
(17:33):
And seizing that moment, I mean, that all of a sudden when we talk about and giving theexchange, going from surface level conversations to soul level conversations, the
temperature of the country across the board right now is at soul level conversation,pretty much in the public.
the whole public square, doesn't matter which side of the aisle, is thinking about thebrevity of life.
And so you don't even have to dig down in that relationship very far before you could say,now we're at soul, now we can turn the conversation, let's talk about Jesus.
(18:01):
I really believe God has given us an opportunity to be a witness.
And I know we're gonna talk about the word witness here in a moment, because I reallywanna know from your studies, as you've thought through this and prepared for this
episode,
How did Jesus define the word martyr?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think that it's probably most people are aware of this, but the word that isquoted from Acts 1 8, where we are called to be Jesus's witnesses, that the Greek Greek
(18:32):
word is the word martyrios or martyr.
uh A martyr is first and foremost, someone who is willing to uh give
testimony, public verbal testimony about something that they personally have experienced.
And if we are a believer, we have experienced the death and resurrection of Jesus Christin our own lives.
(18:56):
We are his witnesses.
But then, of course, the word continues in its um journey through time and in its journeythrough life's experiences.
And those witnesses became
martyrs.
And that's really the growth of the word is that as those witnesses gave their lives, ofcourse, you know that those 12 or 11 apostles that Jesus gave that command to to be his
(19:30):
witnesses out of those 11, all of them were executed.
Of course, John survived his execution and ended up dying an old man.
But all of them gave their lives in martyrdom for Jesus Christ.
And so I really do uh believe the word itself carries with it what ought to be thegreatest motivation of watching Charlie's life and the absence of the empty spot in on
(20:07):
earth because of his murder.
It ought to inspire us to be those witnesses to stand in his place.
Yeah, I remember the following Sunday we were I was here at church while the memorial wasgoing on while I had started speaking with my my growth group my Sunday school group and
we were talking about, you know The cost You know Charlie's death the cost to his familyand I did I did just look in the Bible as you had mentioned Stephen before an axe and you
(20:41):
look at the Bible and
Jesus says very plainly to disciples right up front The cost of preaching this messagewill probably be your life, which we know that the Apostles they were all except one
probably martyred um If not all martyred um And so they're all martyred.
They all eventually themselves face martyrdom.
But but when you look at even the last 2,000 years of church history the price ofpreaching the gospel of Jesus Christ is the price of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ
(21:09):
for some
The price is pretty minimal in comparison to others and for others it cost themeverything.
And the guys who translated our Bible were guys who, most of them, who translated ourBible from Latin into the English and put it in common vernacular, were guys who paid for
that with their lives.
mean, people salted their beers with gunpowder, them to a wooden pole in a public square,and then put wood at the bottom, burned them, and by the time the fire cut up to their
(21:35):
beard, you could imagine what happened.
history, Christian history, has always been bloody.
It has always been bloody.
And it's what happens when you speak truth to lie.
Satan hates it.
But what Jesus says is the gates of hell will not prevail against us.
And that's why, and I know we're going to talk about it, the blood of the martyrs is theseed of the church.
(21:57):
It's like the more you try to stomp it out, the more it spreads.
Yeah, you used the word stomp it out.
Watchman Nee died in a Chinese prison for preaching the gospel.
But before he was arrested, he was asked as in late 1940s, there was a, or excuse me,1940s, 1940s, excuse me, there was a
(22:27):
growing of no longer are we allowed to preach and of course we know about the stamps andtheir martyrdom during that time period.
Watchman was asked to preach to a group about that and he knew there were spies in theroom.
If he said anything negative about the government and persecution, he was going to beimmediately arrested and so he preached
(22:54):
a silent message.
He preached a parable in mime and he took a glass and he glared at it and then he threw iton the ground and of course it's shattered and then he began to stomp on the larger pieces
of it and and and just uh shatter it more and more and more and even began to pick up andthrow some of the pieces in the air and of course those spies were confused and had
(23:20):
nothing to report.
but all the pastors in the room understood what he was doing.
He was in the parable, he was representing the government, and that glass was representingthe church.
And as the government tried to destroy the church, and at first it looked like the churchthat they won, the church is now silenced, it actually just scattered the church and
(23:43):
literally dispersed it to further ministry.
that's exactly what God wants.
all of us to be thinking.
ah I was reading in Philippians where Paul is in jail and he writes to the Philippianbrothers, he says, I want you to know brothers that what has happened to me has really
(24:05):
served to the advance of the gospel.
And I cannot help but think if Charlie could talk to us today that he would say this, Iwant you to know brothers and sisters that what happened to me
has really served to advance the gospel so that it has become known throughout the whole,and he says, imperial guard, the people who Charlie had contact with, 100 million people
(24:33):
downloaded that memorial service.
Probably more people heard the gospel all at one time than any other time in history.
That's the furtherance of the gospel.
And then he goes on and Paul says, you know, there are some people who are not doing thisquite right.
And I think that we all recognize, um, not everybody who's talking about Charlie istalking about the, the pure, clean, um, gospel of Jesus Christ saved by faith and faith
(25:05):
alone.
Uh, but Paul said this, so
whether they are doing it out of selfish ambition or sincerely, what then?
Only in every way, whether in pretense or truth, Christ is proclaimed and in that Irejoice.
And I really do believe that that's what we ought to be thinking, that's what we ought tobe crying out in our minds right now.
(25:29):
I'm so glad you brought this up because it relieves a concern in my mind.
love that pat—I mean, feel like Paul just—the way you brought what just Paul just said isso encouraging because it reveals, in any circumstance there are people who use it for
God's good and there are people who use it for their good.
And um you had different type of people who believe different things, get up and talkabout Jesus and mean different things.
(25:56):
by what they said the gospel was than what sometimes we mean.
The vice president is a Catholic.
um Tulsi Gabbard is probably closest to being a spiritism is kind of her worldview.
ah Don't know the exact worldview of some of the other folks, ah but I will say this, thepreacher that got up that preached, preached the gospel of Jesus Christ very clearly from
(26:21):
scripture and the worship that was.
that was done was done by those who really love believe in our Lord Jesus Christ the sameLord Jesus Christ we see in the Gospels but but but you look at all that and Paul is just
admitting in what you just said of course when when when a Christian dies for somethingthey believe morally based on what the Bible said when they're martyred in that way
(26:43):
they're gonna be people who use that moment for different things that's just we understandthat
Yeah.
I, you know, Jesus said there's gonna be wheat, there's gonna be tears.
It's not our job to separate them.
Our job is to be wheat and to teach truth.
And I, this is kind of bottom line in my mind.
(27:03):
We need heroes.
If ever there was a time in which we need heroes and let's let's not lift Charlie up toohigh.
It's not that's appropriate.
Charlie wouldn't want that.
But let's not lose the opportunity to be inspired by his life and his death and and try tobe a little more like him.
Try to be a little more bold.
(27:26):
Charlie loved the saying I want to make heaven crowded.
And I don't know about you, but that inspires me.
I want to think in terms of being more bold.
I want to think in terms of um listening well to people, finding out what's keeping themfrom Jesus and helping them to see the truth.
(27:50):
I really do want to use these moments to inspire me to be more effective and to be more uh
active.
You know, I was um watching a clip, you know, obviously there's a ton of clips circulatingabout Charlie Kirk in different moments.
He was on camera or whatever.
There's a clip that was circulating.
He went on a podcast.
(28:11):
I'm not going to mention the name of the podcast because the people on that podcast arepretty vile.
And to put it candidly, the women on that podcast are in the pornography industry.
And Charlie went on that podcast to confront pornography as a moral issue that is adetriment to our society and what he believed as a Christian.
And one of the girls just unabashed, unashamed, and really in a moment to try to beprovocative and to pin him down and kind of embarrass him because Charlie had admitted in
(28:40):
the public square, he at one point had struggled with pornography as a young person.
And she said, well, did you ever look at me?
And he said, no, I didn't know you when I was at that age.
She goes, well, that's just the right answer because your wife is watching.
I mean, she was really, really after him and here she's sitting right next to him.
I thought about as a pastor and as a Christian and as a man, I don't think I'd have thecourage to even enter that room and put myself in a place.
(29:08):
But this was his answer to her.
You are not living up to the God given image bearer you're supposed to be.
There's no way you're fulfilled.
that you have so damaged your soul by what you do and I just pray that you'd find thehighest purpose of your skills and abilities and talents that God has given you that you'd
(29:30):
find that fulfillment in God himself.
He said that to her.
And of course she continued to be, you know, resistant and say, well that is the God-giventalent I have.
And he goes, yeah, but that's not the highest use of that thing that God has given you.
He intends you to be married.
And so,
How many of us, I really, just for a second, be real, how many of us would have thecourage to enter that den?
(29:51):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that, um, all of us have to use wisdom and where and how and when, and use thedoors God opens to us.
But the key is that we need to be praying for each other.
Ephesians six, 18 to 20 says, making supplication for all the saints.
And Paul says, and also for me, that the words may be given to me and opening my mouth.
(30:18):
boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador, that I maydeclare it boldly as I ought to speak.
And that's kind of my last word, George.
I'm asking God to help all of us to open our mouths and speak boldly.
(30:41):
And I'll also say something really important you say, important we don't deify Charlie.
He wouldn't want that.
The other thing I think is really important is make a distinction between what God hascalled us to do as believers in the specific mission that Charlie had providentially given
to him by God.
All the doors that had to open for you to be the person that Charlie was.
It was no accident that God gave him that stage.
(31:03):
And so the only way you could achieve what he did at the age of 31 is if
God had touched what you were doing, right?
However, I'll say this because I've encountered people in my church who, for instance, ohthey have people in their family who self-deported out of obedience to Romans chapter 13
(31:23):
because they're believers but who were brought here as minors and are dealing with therealities of the immigration issue.
It hits right in their living room because dad's not there and all the children and momhave residency but dad's on the inside because dad obeyed God and
somebody like Charlie was pretty blunt and spoke and didn't pull any punches when it cameto immigration and was doing that more as a political issue.
(31:52):
You one of the things I said to her was, because she said to me, yeah, but you know,there's some things that you agree with everything Charlie Kirk said.
And I said this, I don't think there's a certain policy.
as a citizen of the United States of America, not as a pastor, as citizen of the UnitedStates of America.
There's not a single policy that I've heard from Charlie Kirk that I disagree with.
(32:12):
As a pastor, I wouldn't have said everything he said the way he said it.
We have two different roles.
So I wanted her to know I was gonna minister to her as a pastor, that my role and whatJesus has called me to, and what your role as a listener, as a person in the harvest and
going out to labor and winning people to Christ in your community, what our role is asChristians in that regard and evangelism and...
Relational evangelism discipleship is not the same mission and stage that God gave Charliegreater We we kind of be careful.
(32:36):
We don't conflate the two and decide I'm gonna do everything he did the way he did it No,we share a worldview with Charlie Kirk ah But he had a very distinct mission and and God
gave him a door that he doesn't give everybody and so if you go into your neighborhood andDecide and we talk about this all the time on the podcast.
(32:57):
I'm gonna now become confrontational
Hmm.
in my approach.
You could come away from Charlie's legacy taking away the wrong thing.
What we have to do is say no, this worldview is worth dying for.
It's all the more purpose to be more relational right now.
In fact, what I want to talk about next week is one of my takeaways from Charlie is thathe had conversations with people and I want to, I want to use that word conversations.
(33:26):
And so I do think that we can learn some things.
don't have to learn everything.
Yes.
Amen.
Well, thank you guys so much for listening.
um I do want to say I'm so excited.
I don't know if you know this, Jeff, we are about 400 downloads away from 10,000 downloadson the podcast.
And that's because you guys are telling other people about it, recommending it.
If it's encouraging to you, you might be telling your friends, family, people in yourchurch.
(33:48):
And we'd ask you to keep doing that.
That really is the way the podcast gets out.
We hope that it's a blessing to you guys in the harvest.
We hope to encourage you pray that you
Pray with us to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers because rightnow we don't have a harvest problem.
We have a labor shortage and we need Jesus to help us.
We need Jesus to intervene.
We love you guys and we'll see you next week.
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