October 6, 2025 • 18 mins
In this episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave discuss the importance of conversations in Christian evangelism and discipleship, using Charlie Kirk's approach as an example. They emphasize the need for listening, asking good questions, and correcting with gentleness, while highlighting the balance between truth and love in communication.
Chapters
Introduction to Gospel Talks
- 00:00:00
Charlie Kirk's Approach to Conversations
- 00:03:00
Balancing Truth and Love
- 00:09:00
The Importance of Listening
- 00:15:00
Equipping for Effective Evangelism
- 00:21:00
Patience and Kindness in Facing Opposition
- 00:27:00
Authentic Love and Faith Alone
- 00:33:00
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Minoka and with me today is none other than Jeff Musgrave.
We're continuing our series talking about the recent events that have happened in thepublic square of our country.
And this week we're going to be asking a different question as it relates to Charlie Kirkand what he did.
(00:22):
We're going be asking, you know, Charlie had a lot of conversations.
uh
How did he have conversations?
How should we as Christians have conversations when it comes to sharing our worldview?
Yeah, I think it's one of the things that is so remarkable to me about Charlie is that hewent into areas where people disagreed with him and gave his debate opponents a
(00:43):
microphone.
You know that it it and I think that we can learn a lot from that thought process becausewe're not going to be able to help people see another point of view if we don't converse
with them.
And know conversations are critical on every format and I know Charlie was there onpolitical purposes as well as Christian purposes and I certainly understand that but in
(01:11):
both arenas if we're going to be able to help people see the truth we're going to have tohave conversations with them and part of conversations is not just talking.
Right, right, you have to listen.
have to listen.
And I'll just say there's a temptation probably to back it down off conversation becausethere's a risk associated with it now that is ingrained in people's minds.
(01:34):
think people are even gonna back off public gatherings the way that, you know, Charlie wasvery public and open-air.
But all that to say, is there anything you would tell to encourage somebody, what is theimportance of conversation in a Christian's life?
Why does the world need us to be salt and light, not shut up, but speak up?
Yeah, I think that if we're going to be able to get at the heart of a person who doesn'tbelieve, mean, that's the whole point, isn't it?
(01:58):
They don't believe and we're trying to help them believe, then we're going to have tobegin to hear what are the things that are blocking you from being able to believe this?
Where are you struggling with what the message has?
And if we're not conversing with them,
We're not ever going to be able to help them to be able to make a decision to believe.
(02:21):
And so that's why I think conversations are so important.
The verse that comes to mind, because I don't want us to think in terms of, we got to beconfrontational like Charlie was confrontational.
The verse that always comes to mind to help me kind of say, how does the Christian enterinto
conversation slash debate about belief and here it's 2nd Timothy chapter 2 beginning withverse 24 the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone able to teach
(02:55):
patiently enduring evil correcting his opponents with gentleness that God would perventureor make perhaps grant
them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth that they may come to their sensesand escape the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will.
(03:19):
That verse really speaks to me.
There's a picture of what is at stake, the soul of people who are held captive by theenemy.
There's a recognition of repentance that I have to acknowledge the truth.
and I have to come to my senses.
But then there's a process with which we get there and that is that we as God's servantsare not quarrelsome, but we do correct our opponents with gentleness.
(03:47):
Those are just all beautiful pieces that I want us to think about.
Yeah, and I do believe as believers, God tells us to speak the truth and love, right?
And so it matters not just what you're saying, but how you say it.
And so there are some people that are really good at love and not truth, and some peoplethat are really good at truth and not love.
And so we have to be careful to hold the position or to be the balance that Jesus was.
(04:09):
And so often people think about balance as, you know, balance as being in the middle, notdoing it like this or not doing like this, but in the middle.
And then a friend of mine
I love what he said about this balance is being biblical and so having a balanced approachto conversation is about biblically communicating the way the Bible tells us to
communicate the way Jesus communicated
Well, I think the very first phrase of that passage is that we are not to fight.
(04:36):
The word quarrelsome here is the idea of getting into conflict and striving, wrestlingwith each other.
And I just remember many of the conversations that I've had with unbelievers who havebecome believers.
And, you know, they started way, way, way back here.
I don't even believe there is a God.
uh And so we had to had to talk about that in order to be able to get to the place wherethey could believe.
(05:01):
And so there's a conversation that can be had that isn't fighting the person.
It is helping that person come to an acknowledgement of the truth.
It's kind of like in marriage counseling, and I remember this marriage counseling, ourmarriage counselor, pre-marriage counselor, who's doing Lexi and I's counseling before we
got married, said, when you guys are talking about a problem, separate it from the people.
(05:22):
Put the problem on the table and talk about the problem directly.
Otherwise, what happens is it feels personal because it feels like you're talking aboutme.
It's like, no, no, I'm not talking about you.
Let's talk about this belief.
Let's talk about this worldview, this doctrine.
And that's a way we don't make it personal.
And you know, the old fashioned saying is hate the sin and love the sinner.
(05:42):
And that's really the picture that's being painted here.
So the second concept there is to be kind.
I really do believe that we as believers need to carry with us a lifestyle of kindness toevery single person that we talk to.
And the more
we disagree with people that more kindness we have to show that person because they'rekind of pushing the buttons.
(06:09):
Right, right.
And we're just not gonna drag many people kicking and screaming to Jesus.
We're not gonna do that successfully.
And we're not gonna be able to berate them to Jesus and punish them to Jesus.
He did say to his disciples, they will know you by your love for one another.
That's our effectiveness is when they see us be loving and kind and gentle.
(06:32):
Yeah, that's the authenticator.
Jesus said they ought to be able to use the authentication of love to determine whether ornot you're genuine.
Yeah, and we've talked about this on this podcast in the past, the skills of listening andhow important they are to evangelism.
It's very, very important that we understand how to be a good listener.
(06:52):
then that is what informs what you say and how you say it.
Yeah, and conversations have to have back and forth talk.
mean, the other person has to talk in order for it to be a conversation.
Otherwise, it's just a monologue.
Right, right, just a lecture.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's one of the things that made Charlie so effective was that he haddialogue conversations with people so that he could show them the truth.
(07:18):
And it brings me to the next point of that verse and that is that there needs to be anaptitude to teach.
I recognize that some people are more gifted with words than others, but I think that allof us
need to have a framework of what the truth is and how it is different from what otherpeople are believing that gives us an aptitude to be able to help them.
(07:45):
And I think we have to sometimes equip ourselves to do that.
a shameless plug, the Exchange Online, it's an online course that would be available forpeople to be able to study and learn.
How can I become apt to teach?
Get that ability, that aptitude to be able to teach.
Yeah, and I'll provide a link in that in the description of the podcast and I'll just saythis to the credit of Charlie Kirk.
(08:10):
He was self-taught and so they call it a self-di-deck, you know, and one of the things isthat he equipped himself for the very thing he did the way he did it and we're called as
Christians to do that and we've been given the most tremendous resource in the world theBible the gospel of Jesus Christ and so we've been we've been told to equip ourselves
and show ourselves worthy of being the deliverers of this message.
(08:34):
Yeah.
And I don't know about you, but one of the things I've been quite inspired by the life ofCharlie Kirk, and I think anybody listening would recognize that.
But one of the things I've been inspired to do is to learn to be more effective at theseconversations.
I just feel like that's my job of making myself better.
(08:54):
One of the things that I don't think we ever outgrow learning.
you know, a self-taught person is a person who can
consistently learns the rest of their life.
Right.
Right.
And there is that rule of if we expect to be amazing world class at listening andconversations after just one course or one try or, you know, one instance, we're kind of
(09:15):
kidding ourselves, right?
There's that kind of that rule of 10,000 hours.
And now I don't think to be affected the way the Bible promises we will be with the aid ofthe Holy Spirit that it takes 10,000 hours, but I will say it takes practice.
You know, I'm in like your
11 of ministry and I would say that I'm not anywhere near world class or perfect but butyou say this about Charlie Kirk he's he worked really hard on those conversations he had
(09:40):
lots and lots of practice I mean every day
interesting 31 years old, but he probably preached more messages in terms of having thesekinds of of of sessions with people than a lot of preachers in a lifetime.
Yep.
Yeah.
And that's how you, that's how you, you learn how to do that is there's no shortcut to it.
(10:02):
No, and having conversations with people, the next conversation you'll do better.
That's just the way it is.
The next point in this verse is that we have to patiently endure evil and the very factthat Charlie was killed in the process of talking about Jesus lets us recognize that there
is evil in this world and that we are going to be mistreated and that we as believers haveto show grace
(10:27):
to those who would abuse us because we are going to face evil opposition.
It's a guarantee and we have to be prepared to do that graciously.
Yeah, yeah, and.
The things that get in the way of that are pride, anger, know, being reactive or foolishin our responses.
Jesus is described as the lamb that took the punishment willingly and without resistance.
(10:53):
Isn't that really what we're called to do is take it without resistance?
And we don't need to be right.
We just need to promote truth.
It's not about me.
It's about the truth and bring.
So do you see the difference between that?
I don't have to be right, but this truth has to be upheld.
right right Jesus is right you could you could disagree with me or you know I could Icould maybe be messed up you could not like me but if you don't if you don't agree with
(11:20):
the truth I mean that's I can't change the truth for you
Yeah, I love that phrase that we are correcting our opponents with gentleness.
The people who don't believe are in opposition to us.
And it's really easy to get into a fight and to see them as the enemy.
(11:41):
And we are correcting them.
They're on a path to destruction.
Why is it the way that leads to destruction?
And many are going that way.
And what we're trying to do is find people who are willing to have a conversation and beable to recognize, I'm going the wrong way.
being corrected.
But God tells us we do that gently.
(12:03):
Yeah, yeah, very important.
People tend not to care how much you know until they know how much you care.
And that's a big part of relationship.
Yeah.
So when we're having these conversations, I think that one of the things we have to remindourselves of, we are proponents of the truth.
We are helping people understand and see the truth, but God is the one who grants them achange of heart, a change of mind, repentance.
(12:27):
That's the work that God does in their hearts.
So we can't carry that bulk of responsibility on our shoulders.
We just are ambassadors for Jesus.
and ambassadors for truth because he is the truth.
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
um And we have to represent him in a way that he'd be honored, he'd be glorified, which isour chief motive.
(12:49):
I do think, and this is really critical.
There are people talking about Jesus right now that still haven't come to saving faith inJesus.
And I think that one of the key ingredients of genuine salvation is when I acknowledge thetruth and I embrace it,
with faith alone.
(13:10):
So in a world of religion, there's a lot of religions who mingle works and genuinesalvation is not mingling in works.
Genuine salvation is recognizing what Jesus did for me is enough and I'm going to trust inthat and that alone.
Yeah, my critic I think puts it beautifully.
(13:32):
He says the difference between religion and relationship in religion, it says do this, dothis, do this, do this, do this, this, do this, and maybe you can get to heaven.
And Jesus said it's finished.
It's done.
It's the difference between what we believe and what a religion would put forth is somesystem of works.
Yeah, we don't believe in religion.
Yeah, and only those who acknowledge that truth are going to be the ones who are in arelationship with Jesus, a real living, loving relationship with him.
(14:01):
um
talk about this in lesson four, right, of the exchange, you talk about common faith, youtalk about the triangle.
is such a, is, that triangle is so helpful when you, especially, I was in Africa,everybody tells you they believe in God, but there's a big distinction between common
faith of like, I acknowledge something versus I've staked my life on it and it's faithalone that saves me.
(14:22):
Yes, and I think frankly, if you're going to be in conversations with people about thegospel, the exchange Bible study is a wonderful tool for you to help them recognize the
truth because sometimes people are saying things and it's hard to be able to distinguisheven in my own mind, are they believing this or are they believing that and it's hard and
(14:43):
the Bible study helps them kind of come
to awareness of where they stand and I think that's really valuable.
So, and ultimately what we're trying to do is help people recover themselves out of thestare of the devil.
The devil has them under control and that's really the key issue.
We have to recognize this is not about winning them to an argument.
(15:05):
This is about helping them escape the clasp of the enemy and run into the arms and theclasp.
of Jesus Christ as he embraces them.
Right, because if you destroy their worldview, all they're left with is nothing.
If your goal was just to destroy their arguments, what we have to do is give themsomething, a replacement.
know, no, not that, now this relationship with Jesus Christ.
(15:27):
Absolutely.
So you mentioned while ago, the importance of listening.
I think there are actually two primary skills in any conversation.
And if we can learn these two skills, we will be a better conversationalist and better athelping people come to, escaping this narrow the devil and embracing Jesus.
(15:49):
The first is ask good questions.
And I have been inspired
by listening to Charlie Kirk and those around him to learn to ask better questions.
think good questions can do several things.
Number one, it can draw out a person, which Charlie was a master at, but it can also helpthem see the fallacy of their own thinking so that I'm not telling them.
(16:12):
I'm actually helping them to recognize their own fallacies by asking good questions.
That's actually what the Exchange Bible study is built on.
It's built on, you you see 150 different passages and then we ask the reader, your friend,the person you're going through it with questions.
The idea is inductive, right?
They see the evidence for themselves.
(16:33):
That's very powerful because then they know it's not just your message.
They know it's the message of God and Jesus Christ.
Yeah.
And then in a conversation, the other half of that is that when you ask those goodquestions, then you need to learn to listen well and listening well can by itself meet a
soul need in that person.
(16:53):
So if you think about it, every single person needs to be heard.
And by just simply giving them my genuine listening ear, I'm meeting one of those soulneeds.
But we can also listen for error in their thinking.
We're listening to error so that we can help set them free with truth.
I mean, that's really the issue here.
(17:14):
And so I've just decided if I'm going to become a better conversationalist, I'm going tocommit myself at working on learning to ask better questions and learning to be a better
listener.
Yeah, yeah.
And we've talked about this before, uh listening gains you an audience far moreeffectively than talking does.
(17:35):
Which is why Charlie had the audience he had, I really believe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I think next week we're gonna talk about anything continued on this or are wetransitioning to something else?
I want to talk about how effective Charlie was and I want to talk about recognizing thatwe need to pray for effectiveness and then talk about how do we expand our effectiveness?
(17:58):
How do we expand our impact on people?
That's really the word I want us to talk about next week is impact.
Amen.
Well, thank you guys so much for listening.
ah Pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers.
love you guys and we will see you next week.
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Minoka and with me today is none other than Jeff Musgrave.
We're continuing our series talking about the recent events that have happened in thepublic square of our country.
And this week we're going to be asking a different question as it relates to Charlie Kirkand what he did.
(00:22):
We're going be asking, you know, Charlie had a lot of conversations.
uh
How did he have conversations?
How should we as Christians have conversations when it comes to sharing our worldview?
Yeah, I think it's one of the things that is so remarkable to me about Charlie is that hewent into areas where people disagreed with him and gave his debate opponents a
(00:43):
microphone.
You know that it it and I think that we can learn a lot from that thought process becausewe're not going to be able to help people see another point of view if we don't converse
with them.
And know conversations are critical on every format and I know Charlie was there onpolitical purposes as well as Christian purposes and I certainly understand that but in
(01:11):
both arenas if we're going to be able to help people see the truth we're going to have tohave conversations with them and part of conversations is not just talking.
Right, right, you have to listen.
have to listen.
And I'll just say there's a temptation probably to back it down off conversation becausethere's a risk associated with it now that is ingrained in people's minds.
(01:34):
think people are even gonna back off public gatherings the way that, you know, Charlie wasvery public and open-air.
But all that to say, is there anything you would tell to encourage somebody, what is theimportance of conversation in a Christian's life?
Why does the world need us to be salt and light, not shut up, but speak up?
Yeah, I think that if we're going to be able to get at the heart of a person who doesn'tbelieve, mean, that's the whole point, isn't it?
(01:58):
They don't believe and we're trying to help them believe, then we're going to have tobegin to hear what are the things that are blocking you from being able to believe this?
Where are you struggling with what the message has?
And if we're not conversing with them,
We're not ever going to be able to help them to be able to make a decision to believe.
(02:21):
And so that's why I think conversations are so important.
The verse that comes to mind, because I don't want us to think in terms of, we got to beconfrontational like Charlie was confrontational.
The verse that always comes to mind to help me kind of say, how does the Christian enterinto
conversation slash debate about belief and here it's 2nd Timothy chapter 2 beginning withverse 24 the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone able to teach
(02:55):
patiently enduring evil correcting his opponents with gentleness that God would perventureor make perhaps grant
them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth that they may come to their sensesand escape the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will.
(03:19):
That verse really speaks to me.
There's a picture of what is at stake, the soul of people who are held captive by theenemy.
There's a recognition of repentance that I have to acknowledge the truth.
and I have to come to my senses.
But then there's a process with which we get there and that is that we as God's servantsare not quarrelsome, but we do correct our opponents with gentleness.
(03:47):
Those are just all beautiful pieces that I want us to think about.
Yeah, and I do believe as believers, God tells us to speak the truth and love, right?
And so it matters not just what you're saying, but how you say it.
And so there are some people that are really good at love and not truth, and some peoplethat are really good at truth and not love.
And so we have to be careful to hold the position or to be the balance that Jesus was.
(04:09):
And so often people think about balance as, you know, balance as being in the middle, notdoing it like this or not doing like this, but in the middle.
And then a friend of mine
I love what he said about this balance is being biblical and so having a balanced approachto conversation is about biblically communicating the way the Bible tells us to
communicate the way Jesus communicated
Well, I think the very first phrase of that passage is that we are not to fight.
(04:36):
The word quarrelsome here is the idea of getting into conflict and striving, wrestlingwith each other.
And I just remember many of the conversations that I've had with unbelievers who havebecome believers.
And, you know, they started way, way, way back here.
I don't even believe there is a God.
uh And so we had to had to talk about that in order to be able to get to the place wherethey could believe.
(05:01):
And so there's a conversation that can be had that isn't fighting the person.
It is helping that person come to an acknowledgement of the truth.
It's kind of like in marriage counseling, and I remember this marriage counseling, ourmarriage counselor, pre-marriage counselor, who's doing Lexi and I's counseling before we
got married, said, when you guys are talking about a problem, separate it from the people.
(05:22):
Put the problem on the table and talk about the problem directly.
Otherwise, what happens is it feels personal because it feels like you're talking aboutme.
It's like, no, no, I'm not talking about you.
Let's talk about this belief.
Let's talk about this worldview, this doctrine.
And that's a way we don't make it personal.
And you know, the old fashioned saying is hate the sin and love the sinner.
(05:42):
And that's really the picture that's being painted here.
So the second concept there is to be kind.
I really do believe that we as believers need to carry with us a lifestyle of kindness toevery single person that we talk to.
And the more
we disagree with people that more kindness we have to show that person because they'rekind of pushing the buttons.
(06:09):
Right, right.
And we're just not gonna drag many people kicking and screaming to Jesus.
We're not gonna do that successfully.
And we're not gonna be able to berate them to Jesus and punish them to Jesus.
He did say to his disciples, they will know you by your love for one another.
That's our effectiveness is when they see us be loving and kind and gentle.
(06:32):
Yeah, that's the authenticator.
Jesus said they ought to be able to use the authentication of love to determine whether ornot you're genuine.
Yeah, and we've talked about this on this podcast in the past, the skills of listening andhow important they are to evangelism.
It's very, very important that we understand how to be a good listener.
(06:52):
then that is what informs what you say and how you say it.
Yeah, and conversations have to have back and forth talk.
mean, the other person has to talk in order for it to be a conversation.
Otherwise, it's just a monologue.
Right, right, just a lecture.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's one of the things that made Charlie so effective was that he haddialogue conversations with people so that he could show them the truth.
(07:18):
And it brings me to the next point of that verse and that is that there needs to be anaptitude to teach.
I recognize that some people are more gifted with words than others, but I think that allof us
need to have a framework of what the truth is and how it is different from what otherpeople are believing that gives us an aptitude to be able to help them.
(07:45):
And I think we have to sometimes equip ourselves to do that.
a shameless plug, the Exchange Online, it's an online course that would be available forpeople to be able to study and learn.
How can I become apt to teach?
Get that ability, that aptitude to be able to teach.
Yeah, and I'll provide a link in that in the description of the podcast and I'll just saythis to the credit of Charlie Kirk.
(08:10):
He was self-taught and so they call it a self-di-deck, you know, and one of the things isthat he equipped himself for the very thing he did the way he did it and we're called as
Christians to do that and we've been given the most tremendous resource in the world theBible the gospel of Jesus Christ and so we've been we've been told to equip ourselves
and show ourselves worthy of being the deliverers of this message.
(08:34):
Yeah.
And I don't know about you, but one of the things I've been quite inspired by the life ofCharlie Kirk, and I think anybody listening would recognize that.
But one of the things I've been inspired to do is to learn to be more effective at theseconversations.
I just feel like that's my job of making myself better.
(08:54):
One of the things that I don't think we ever outgrow learning.
you know, a self-taught person is a person who can
consistently learns the rest of their life.
Right.
Right.
And there is that rule of if we expect to be amazing world class at listening andconversations after just one course or one try or, you know, one instance, we're kind of
(09:15):
kidding ourselves, right?
There's that kind of that rule of 10,000 hours.
And now I don't think to be affected the way the Bible promises we will be with the aid ofthe Holy Spirit that it takes 10,000 hours, but I will say it takes practice.
You know, I'm in like your
11 of ministry and I would say that I'm not anywhere near world class or perfect but butyou say this about Charlie Kirk he's he worked really hard on those conversations he had
(09:40):
lots and lots of practice I mean every day
interesting 31 years old, but he probably preached more messages in terms of having thesekinds of of of sessions with people than a lot of preachers in a lifetime.
Yep.
Yeah.
And that's how you, that's how you, you learn how to do that is there's no shortcut to it.
(10:02):
No, and having conversations with people, the next conversation you'll do better.
That's just the way it is.
The next point in this verse is that we have to patiently endure evil and the very factthat Charlie was killed in the process of talking about Jesus lets us recognize that there
is evil in this world and that we are going to be mistreated and that we as believers haveto show grace
(10:27):
to those who would abuse us because we are going to face evil opposition.
It's a guarantee and we have to be prepared to do that graciously.
Yeah, yeah, and.
The things that get in the way of that are pride, anger, know, being reactive or foolishin our responses.
Jesus is described as the lamb that took the punishment willingly and without resistance.
(10:53):
Isn't that really what we're called to do is take it without resistance?
And we don't need to be right.
We just need to promote truth.
It's not about me.
It's about the truth and bring.
So do you see the difference between that?
I don't have to be right, but this truth has to be upheld.
right right Jesus is right you could you could disagree with me or you know I could Icould maybe be messed up you could not like me but if you don't if you don't agree with
(11:20):
the truth I mean that's I can't change the truth for you
Yeah, I love that phrase that we are correcting our opponents with gentleness.
The people who don't believe are in opposition to us.
And it's really easy to get into a fight and to see them as the enemy.
(11:41):
And we are correcting them.
They're on a path to destruction.
Why is it the way that leads to destruction?
And many are going that way.
And what we're trying to do is find people who are willing to have a conversation and beable to recognize, I'm going the wrong way.
being corrected.
But God tells us we do that gently.
(12:03):
Yeah, yeah, very important.
People tend not to care how much you know until they know how much you care.
And that's a big part of relationship.
Yeah.
So when we're having these conversations, I think that one of the things we have to remindourselves of, we are proponents of the truth.
We are helping people understand and see the truth, but God is the one who grants them achange of heart, a change of mind, repentance.
(12:27):
That's the work that God does in their hearts.
So we can't carry that bulk of responsibility on our shoulders.
We just are ambassadors for Jesus.
and ambassadors for truth because he is the truth.
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
um And we have to represent him in a way that he'd be honored, he'd be glorified, which isour chief motive.
(12:49):
I do think, and this is really critical.
There are people talking about Jesus right now that still haven't come to saving faith inJesus.
And I think that one of the key ingredients of genuine salvation is when I acknowledge thetruth and I embrace it,
with faith alone.
(13:10):
So in a world of religion, there's a lot of religions who mingle works and genuinesalvation is not mingling in works.
Genuine salvation is recognizing what Jesus did for me is enough and I'm going to trust inthat and that alone.
Yeah, my critic I think puts it beautifully.
(13:32):
He says the difference between religion and relationship in religion, it says do this, dothis, do this, do this, do this, this, do this, and maybe you can get to heaven.
And Jesus said it's finished.
It's done.
It's the difference between what we believe and what a religion would put forth is somesystem of works.
Yeah, we don't believe in religion.
Yeah, and only those who acknowledge that truth are going to be the ones who are in arelationship with Jesus, a real living, loving relationship with him.
(14:01):
um
talk about this in lesson four, right, of the exchange, you talk about common faith, youtalk about the triangle.
is such a, is, that triangle is so helpful when you, especially, I was in Africa,everybody tells you they believe in God, but there's a big distinction between common
faith of like, I acknowledge something versus I've staked my life on it and it's faithalone that saves me.
(14:22):
Yes, and I think frankly, if you're going to be in conversations with people about thegospel, the exchange Bible study is a wonderful tool for you to help them recognize the
truth because sometimes people are saying things and it's hard to be able to distinguisheven in my own mind, are they believing this or are they believing that and it's hard and
(14:43):
the Bible study helps them kind of come
to awareness of where they stand and I think that's really valuable.
So, and ultimately what we're trying to do is help people recover themselves out of thestare of the devil.
The devil has them under control and that's really the key issue.
We have to recognize this is not about winning them to an argument.
(15:05):
This is about helping them escape the clasp of the enemy and run into the arms and theclasp.
of Jesus Christ as he embraces them.
Right, because if you destroy their worldview, all they're left with is nothing.
If your goal was just to destroy their arguments, what we have to do is give themsomething, a replacement.
know, no, not that, now this relationship with Jesus Christ.
(15:27):
Absolutely.
So you mentioned while ago, the importance of listening.
I think there are actually two primary skills in any conversation.
And if we can learn these two skills, we will be a better conversationalist and better athelping people come to, escaping this narrow the devil and embracing Jesus.
(15:49):
The first is ask good questions.
And I have been inspired
by listening to Charlie Kirk and those around him to learn to ask better questions.
think good questions can do several things.
Number one, it can draw out a person, which Charlie was a master at, but it can also helpthem see the fallacy of their own thinking so that I'm not telling them.
(16:12):
I'm actually helping them to recognize their own fallacies by asking good questions.
That's actually what the Exchange Bible study is built on.
It's built on, you you see 150 different passages and then we ask the reader, your friend,the person you're going through it with questions.
The idea is inductive, right?
They see the evidence for themselves.
(16:33):
That's very powerful because then they know it's not just your message.
They know it's the message of God and Jesus Christ.
Yeah.
And then in a conversation, the other half of that is that when you ask those goodquestions, then you need to learn to listen well and listening well can by itself meet a
soul need in that person.
(16:53):
So if you think about it, every single person needs to be heard.
And by just simply giving them my genuine listening ear, I'm meeting one of those soulneeds.
But we can also listen for error in their thinking.
We're listening to error so that we can help set them free with truth.
I mean, that's really the issue here.
(17:14):
And so I've just decided if I'm going to become a better conversationalist, I'm going tocommit myself at working on learning to ask better questions and learning to be a better
listener.
Yeah, yeah.
And we've talked about this before, uh listening gains you an audience far moreeffectively than talking does.
(17:35):
Which is why Charlie had the audience he had, I really believe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I think next week we're gonna talk about anything continued on this or are wetransitioning to something else?
I want to talk about how effective Charlie was and I want to talk about recognizing thatwe need to pray for effectiveness and then talk about how do we expand our effectiveness?
(17:58):
How do we expand our impact on people?
That's really the word I want us to talk about next week is impact.
Amen.
Well, thank you guys so much for listening.
ah Pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers.
love you guys and we will see you next week.
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