December 29, 2025 • 32 mins
As a new year approaches, many Christians think about personal goals—but what about goals for the local church? In this episode, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave challenge listeners to rethink New Year’s resolutions through the lens of church health, revitalization, and gospel-centered unity.
From creating safe, grace-filled church environments to strengthening discipleship, improving administrative clarity, and engaging the surrounding community, this conversation explores what it looks like for every believer—not just pastors—to take responsibility for the life and mission of the church. At the heart of it all is a powerful reminder: truth and love are the essential ingredients for real growth, and the gospel is what unites diverse people into one body.
Whether you’re a pastor, ministry leader, or faithful church member, this episode will help you think intentionally about how God might want to use you in the coming year for the health and mission of your church.
Episode Chapters:
- 00:00 – New Year Resolutions for the Church
- 02:45 – Revitalizing Church Communities
- 05:09 – Creating a Safe Church Environment
- 07:43 – Discipleship and Growth
- 10:24 – Administrative Efficiency in Ministry
- 13:02 – Truth and Love in Church Growth
- 15:39 – Outreach and Community Engagement
- 18:23 – Building Relationships in the Church
- 21:05 – The Power of the Gospel in Unity
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talk Podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Binoka and with me today is Jeff Musgrave, the founder and author of TheExchange.
And we're so excited to be with you guys.
This is a little bit right after Christmas, just before New Year's.
And uh we want you to think about New Year's resolutions real quick.
(00:22):
I guess this whole episode is kind of about...
a type of New Year resolution except one that we don't often think of.
I I think of like, okay, I got to lose a little bit of weight.
I want to do this.
I want to do that.
I want to clean this room up in my house, clean out the junk drawer.
But those are very this earth kind of resolutions.
I think a resolution that we're thinking about is what would be the resolution for yourchurch, the church family that you're a part of, you as a member of the church, what would
(00:47):
be the New Year's resolution for you?
And we're all the church.
The church is not just the pastors.
It's not just the leadership.
It's not just the deacons.
It's not a building.
It's the people.
So all of you are the church.
You're part of some local church family, I hope.
And in being part of that, we ought to have a goal for this year for 2026.
(01:09):
So
I love I love goals.
Don't you George?
mean, go.
Go.
Goals are uh what drives my life.
I got to have a new one.
Yep, yep, they excite me.
They are exciting.
Yeah, so here I think we've been thinking a lot about goals and so what were you thinkingto talk about today?
mean, what kind of goals do you want to talk about?
(01:30):
Well, I really felt since I think most of you know that George is just taking thepastorate of a of a church that really needs to be revitalized.
And he's super excited about that.
I'm super excited for him and for the church.
And I thought, wow, this is fresh on his brain there.
(01:51):
He's thinking in terms of how can we get this church
up and healthy and running and you know what, what, what steps need to be done.
And I think every single church needs new life.
mean, every, if we could almost say George, that every church needs to be revitalized.
we all need new life.
And I thought if we could just listen, to what God's kind of put on your head and yourheart, in terms of what you need to do, I think we can all learn from that.
(02:17):
So I thought we'd just use that as a template if it's okay.
Oh yeah, sure.
You know, a lot of times when we think revitalization, we think like a complete restart.
I'm actually, I think the Lord has been really gracious to me in the fact that I'm notreally starting where some guys start in a church revitalization, which is like they have
maybe three or four families left.
(02:38):
We have much more than that.
You know, we have 130 on a Sunday, but the church that I'm
family that I'm a part of now has been through a lot of hurt, a lot of change, basicallyhas been kind of on a downturn, steady downturn over the last couple years due to various
reasons.
And, and as I've come in, I've just thought, you know, we, have some goals we're trying todo here.
(03:02):
And we were talking just before the podcast and basically the three areas I'm focused onis truth.
administration and people.
As I've looked across our church family, there are some people that I really want todisciple, get close to.
There are people, not talking to other people, that are not, they are not reconciled, butthey're not having the conversation to have reconciliation.
(03:27):
And so there's a little bit of Matthew 18 going on.
Our administrative
where we are right now administratively.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
just a thought, just for our listeners in, in my mind, there's a major difference betweena replant and a, kind of re strengthening, revitalizing what's here and, definitely see
(03:52):
what you're doing as a revitalization.
That's why I say every church,
needs to be revitalized.
Not every church needs to be replanted.
You know, if if church is down to a couple of families, it needs to be replanted.
If a church is got a hundred people in it and they're just tired and worn out and needinga shepherd, that that's, that's totally different.
(04:14):
Now we just need to revitalize that.
I would dare say George that nearly every church that
the people that we're talking to are in, there are people there that are tired and wornout and the church needs number one, new workers, because that's every church needs more
workers.
Uh, even the early church, that was the biggest problem they have was more work to be donethan people to do the work.
(04:37):
Uh, that was the institutional lay leaders in, uh, um, acts chapter six.
Uh, but when, when we see
any church, it needs to be revitalized.
And I think you're putting the emphasis right in that the very first thought aboutrevitalizing is building up those people, finding the people problems.
(04:59):
But but not just that taking the people who have been the backbone and holding it togetherand and giving them a break and giving them a lift up because they're tired.
Mm-hmm, yep.
No, I think you're exactly right.
I think a lot of us Christians who are in a church, we struggle with the idea of, youknow, it always seems there's some problem, there's something we're dealing with as a
(05:21):
church.
There's always, it's like you fix this thing and then this thing pops out.
And then you fix that thing and then this thing comes undone.
And there's an aspect of ministry, of just being part of a church where...
you are always going to have to go through these cycles of revitalization and adjustmentand a little bit of a pivot.
you're going have to, you're going to be used to doing this thing that was so, soeffective and all of a sudden it's not effective anymore in your neighborhood.
(05:46):
And now you have to change how you approach something.
And we just have to understand that that kind of...
work and busyness and the stress that comes with all that is actually the privilege ofbeing in a ministry that is growing, that God is doing something with.
If you aren't facing any problems, either you're dead as a ministry, right?
(06:07):
If you aren't facing any problems, either you're dead as a ministry or you're justignorant of them.
It's like any growing place faces growing.
pains and if Satan is attacking you as a ministry, if the church has problems and peopleare having problems, is because you are at some level effective.
(06:27):
If he leaves you alone, I don't know what that says about you.
All that to say it's how we deal with the problems.
It's not every ministry, I don't know of a single ministry that doesn't have some kind ofproblem.
I don't know of a single church with some kind of problems.
If you're looking for a perfect church, you're doomed.
But, but
in fact, if you're looking for a church, perfect church, don't join it because it won't beperfect anymore.
(06:48):
Yeah, that's the brutal reality is we bring our problems with us as Christians.
You know, I was just talking to Anna today about, one of the things that I know you'reworking on is helping your church to be safe.
And I think you're working on some of the administrative issues of taking care of childrenand all of the pieces.
But I think even just emotionally, spiritually, socially, I think every single personneeds to be able to walk into church and feel safe.
(07:17):
And what I mean by that is,
If, if we think we have to be perfect to be able to serve in the church, we're never goingto serve.
And so if there are people serving me and serving the church and they make a mistake andmaybe even a sinful one, you know, they got, they lost their temper.
They, they did something selfish.
we all have to let them make those kinds of mistakes because nobody doesn't make thosekinds of mistakes.
(07:42):
We all get selfish.
Sometimes we all,
say things we shouldn't have said and have to go back and repent.
And I mean, that that's just part of life in a family.
we safety says, I'm going to let you make those mistakes and let you correct them andstill love you deeply.
Yeah, and the book of Proverbs says if you don't like the benefits of having an ox, getrid of it.
(08:04):
But part of having an ox is you have to clean up after the ox.
But there's a benefit that comes with that.
you know, it's like sometimes when the older people in our church feel like the kids are anuisance.
Well,
A church with zero kids is a dying church.
It's a doomed church.
I've, I've, we've been a lot of churches that literally you walk in and you immediatelyrecognize it's church.
(08:30):
You're not going to make it because there's no kids and where there's kids, there'snoisiness and they're going to bump you.
Yep.
right now my AV team is teenagers and we're starting to incorporate the teenagers intoworship and the song portion of the worship service.
And so people look at that and go, you know, how can you, how could you trust teenagerswith that?
(08:51):
Well, I mean, that's the future of your church.
So you can't afford not to invest in them and give them opportunities.
And if they
one of the teenagers programmed the slides to auto-forward in our song service this lastSunday, or somebody did.
I don't know if it was one of the teenagers, but anyway, it would jump ahead and he'd haveto hit it back because we weren't done singing the slide.
(09:12):
And so there was this boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom happening in every song.
And at the end, I go up to him and go, so what happened to those slides?
He's like, man, there was an auto-forward and we didn't catch it ahead of time and weshould have deleted it in the transitions on the slide.
And I just looked at him and I go, I'm so impressed that you understand what happened andwhat went wrong and you already have a plan to correct it.
(09:32):
I'm really thankful for your ministry because
that's letting him be safe to do stuff and not be perfect.
Exactly.
I mean, that's part of development is those are the risks we take to develop other peopleand invest in them and see God use them.
And if everything, I was just preaching the Magnificat this Sunday and Mary's worship wasnot canned worship.
(09:58):
It was not manufactured.
It was not artificial.
It was not perfect and prim and proper.
and everything she said she said under inspiration, but she spoke totally from the heart.
says her soul magnified the Lord.
That's where our worship and service ought to come from, from our souls.
If it's all scripted like a choreographed concert, I mean, is it really genuine localchurch worship?
(10:24):
So it's okay to have mistakes.
So I think one of the things that we want to be able to communicate to those who are justchurch members are two twofold.
Number one, we need to give people room to make mistakes.
But number two, we've got to be recognizing that the people around us need to be growing.
(10:48):
And I think I
our friend Brad Steely gets gets real excited about discipleship.
And he says every single person in the church needs to be being discipled and needs to bediscipling someone.
And so I think in terms of how do we help people grow, every one of us ought to be lookingaround and saying who in this church could I get it come alongside of and help them grow.
(11:13):
Yeah.
I think, I think you're a hundred percent right.
Instead of complaining about, you know, where they, where they fall short, we ought tocome alongside and say, how can I help you?
You know,
instead of complaining, you know, our church doesn't do any discipling.
Well, then start discipling, you know, find someone and disciple them.
(11:34):
Yeah, I heard of a pastor who would tell people, you're not allowed to come to me with aproblem until you have a solution for that problem.
Come with both or don't come at all.
you got, I got in mind for sure.
Now I know that one of the things you're trying to do with people is kind of build adiscipling group.
You're you're working on training people in discipleship.
(11:55):
Yeah, I mean, I was talking with one of the deacons here at the church and he's just like,you know, I'd love to know how to do discipleship.
I'd love to know how to win somebody to Christ and then disciple them for a lifetime ofministry.
And I said, why don't we just start a group that meets in my home of families in thechurch who are interested in this sort of thing.
A lot of my younger families with kids are interested in, they have opportunities in theirworkplace and on the sidelines of games and things like that.
(12:21):
And so they just don't
they don't have the training, you the stuff we talk about on this podcast, uh what theexchange ministry does.
So of course I work for the exchange.
So one of the benefits is I have the online course and I can play it on the TV in myliving room and we can create a class, we can create a fishing club.
I think that's what I'm gonna call it.
I'm gonna call it a fishing club.
(12:42):
And so we're gonna go fishing for men.
um so anyway, that's kind of a very small thing, but that makes a big impact.
You know, it is the main thing.
think it may be a small in terms of how many people, but it's the main thing in terms ofwhat you're trying to accomplish.
What are you working on administratively?
So it's boring stuff, but I'm telling you, it's so important to a church.
(13:05):
It's finances, how are deacons meetings streamlined, how are business meetingsstreamlined.
You know, a church business meeting can be a real turnoff.
It could be a turnoff to a visitor, it could be turnoff to your own people.
I know of a church in another state that had a business meeting about a piano.
where people were standing up and shouting at each other across the room.
(13:27):
And some of the young people who grew up at that church have never gone back to thatchurch because of that one business meeting.
Generation Z you have a fight in the church and they're gone.
Yep.
Yeah.
And that's that you're exactly right.
You mean you want to kill a youth group.
You want to kill the future.
What would be your young, young adult group.
Just go ahead and have a fight in your business meeting or have really long ones.
(13:50):
Just unnecessary conversation.
Let's all say the same thing 50 times in the meeting and let's all ask, you know, sameversion of the question.
I'm not saying questions are wrong to ask and it's the prerogative of members to be ableto have discussion and ask questions in a business meeting.
But
At some level, leaders have to be able to garner respect and support from their peopleenough to conduct a business meeting in a Christ-like, orderly manner that would glorify
(14:15):
God.
And then on another level, we all have to realize as the church that business meetingsaren't the main thing of the church.
Actually, we shouldn't even call them business meetings because we're not a business,we're a ministry.
so we have to...
Family, that's a great...
That's a perfect name for what these are.
Some people bring their Robert's Rules of Order to a church meeting and it's like, holdon, that's not the point.
(14:39):
That's just not, wrong place.
Yeah.
And I think I used to have a, a finance guy in our church that would get so excited aboutrolling out the budget because he would say, this is helping us see what God's going to do
in our church this, this year.
And, you know, we are showing our priorities by our budget.
(15:02):
And I think we can make everything ministry.
That's really the issue is.
It's all about ministry.
The only reason we're doing administration is because we're going to do ministryefficiently.
And that's why it's so important to explain to people why you're doing something.
If there's not a good reason why, and you're just doing it and going through the motions,is people get frustrated.
(15:23):
They think it's boring or pointless.
Other thing with finances is that if you as a church are being supported by donors,supported by the tithes of Christians in your church, and if you're not transparent, if
you don't have good accounting practices, if you don't keep track,
of your budget if you don't have spending regulation on the staff and accountability viathe deacons, I think that people lose trust in the financial process and the plate
(15:49):
reflects that.
And so when you can't tell people what you spent and you can't tell them your budgetbecause nobody knows and everybody's looking at around at each other and going, I don't
know what that money is for.
There's a hundred thousand dollars in that account.
What's it for?
And everybody's scratching their head and you go, man, this is really bad.
That's the thing that could kill a church too, because those are the churches that areeasy to embezzle from.
In fact, yeah, that's, that's terrifying.
(16:11):
And I think one of the things we want to do in terms of accountability is not just keeppeople from embezzling, but, to protect the people who are doing it so that if, if there's
ever an accusation, there's plenty of evidence because we have plenty of accountability toprotect them.
Yep, yeah, and that's exactly it.
And you want that accountability and at the same time, you don't want the left handknowing what the right hand is doing.
(16:35):
So I'm not interested in 12 different people having access to the giving records.
I think in a church, I think it's very important for everybody to know, and this is mypersonal opinion, but I as a pastor never want to know what anybody's giving.
I just don't because I don't want it to ever change the way I treat anybody.
I don't want our leadership, our staff to ever know who gives what because that couldaffect how they decide to use benevolence or anything like that.
(16:57):
I just, want people to give to the Lord freely as the Lord leads them and then we ought tominister to them freely.
But there needs to be one person so that giving records can go out for tax season.
But that's kind of, that's another thing we're working on, you know.
Yeah, those are all great things.
And I think the key here for all of our church members who are listening is that in ourchurch, we want to promote and respect administrative responsibilities.
(17:26):
so where do I fit into this process to be able to help it?
And that's really the issue with all of church life is I want my participation to alwaysbe
help.
Even if I have to ask questions about wait a minute, this doesn't seem quite right.
I'm doing it with the intention of I want to make sure that our church is healthy.
(17:48):
And I want to help that to be the case, however I possibly can.
Yeah, and ask good questions and go to people and ask them about the process.
And that's what the church does.
It holds the pastors and deacons accountable.
And so I think that those are really good things.
um so, yeah.
to make sure we have enough time to get down to this third uh aspect here.
(18:09):
And the first two words that you wrote on the notes that you gave to me, I hope you havethem in front of you because I want you to say them.
Those those that number three, just read that first little sentence.
Okay, the one where, application of the sermon round?
No, not in the next one.
Gather.
You're good.
(18:29):
and love are the main ingredients of human growth.
By the way that I didn't come up with that George came up with that I just wanted to Iwanted to hear that from him.
But I love love love that statement, George.
Yeah, it's really what I believe.
Truth and love are the main ingredients because those are the two sides to God, right?
(18:50):
Amet and Chased, those you look all throughout scripture, it's truth and love, truth andmercy, truth and mercy, truth and mercy.
That's the loyal love of God.
And so as I look around as a pastor, I'm asking myself, how do we more effectively unleashthe truth of God on people's lives?
um So that the Holy Spirit can minister through that word To change people because he'sthe one who really changes people I can't change people and then we have to love them too
(19:17):
in the way we do it and before we do it and after we do it we just have to love them andhave relationship and so I'm looking around and going.
Okay.
How do I help my peep my folks in their daily devotions?
Maybe I need to start a podcast for our church and just
do five minutes every morning of here's what I read in my daily devotions, here's the partof scripture we're in, do your best to read this today, pray, here's what I'm praying to
(19:42):
the Lord today, you know, just simple things like that.
How could we change Wednesday nights to be Bible courses to arm people for discipleshipand in their own development as they walk with God to become, to go from just an attender
and member to an administrator, to a minister, you know, um and so somebody who...
into others and what we call the circle of ministry at the exchange.
(20:05):
And so how do we make sure the preaching and the song part of the service, how do we makesure those are more effective with truth and love?
You know, in-home discipleship groups, how do we make in-home small groups happen in ourchurch?
You know, where people are getting that community feel, you know, that love, you know,horizontally between people.
but that they also are again having discussion and application.
(20:29):
And so it's like you preach a sermon on Sunday morning, Sunday night's a great time to getinto a home setting with families and sit around and say, okay, now how do we take that
into our week and let people actually talk?
They've listened already that morning for hours.
Now we let them talk.
And so...
And I think most people learn better when they're when they're espousing, they're talking.
I just have seen that over and over in seminars, we learn a lot more in the discussiontimes than any other times in the seminar.
(20:55):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you.
People, when they have to verbalize something, when they have to speak, it sticks withthem in a way that it doesn't if it's just internalized.
Yeah, and sometimes hearing it from the guy you're sitting next to is really powerful, youknow, and to recognize, hey, this guy's got a heart for God, listen to the way he's
(21:16):
talking, there's something about talking about genuine truth in that loving environmentthat just really connects us with each other.
Yep, no, I agree with you 100%.
But yeah, those are the three areas, people, administration, truth that I've really tryingto hone in on.
I'm not gonna be perfect at it.
I'm not speaking to you guys as a guru because I'm just getting started and we have noidea how it's even gonna go.
(21:42):
know, God's gonna have to do it.
to speak as the expert, I do.
I, I, I love your heart, George.
You always are humble and thinking down the road way down the road.
And I just wanted to get a little bit of that for all of us today to kind of walk down andlisten to a little bit of what's going on inside of your brain as, you're contemplating.
(22:09):
these these new steps in your church.
I think it's helpful to all of us.
Let me play a little bit of a devil's advocate.
That's really not a nice phrase.
I don't know why I even use that phrase, but I don't want to be the devil's anything.
um But, but, you know, all of these things are bringing your people up to healthiness andbringing the church as a whole the body.
(22:33):
to healthiness, which is critical.
mean, that's, that's your first job as your, as a shepherd.
But what are, what are you thinking in regards to, getting new life into the church,reaching people and bringing them in from the outside?
What, I know you're working on that as well.
Yeah, so one of the first things we did is we upped our outreach budget.
(22:55):
We have deferred savings in the bank account and I just kind of, you know, looked at ourdeacons and financial team and said, hey, let's put this to good use.
uh It's great to have a cushion, but it'd be terrible if we died as a church with acushion, you know, so let's start reaching out.
So we just looked all across the ministry.
and identified several areas where we could grow and things that would lead to growth.
(23:18):
Everything from branding, you know, our church is Berean Baptist Church, which comes fromActs 17.
But an unbeliever, an outsider, or somebody who may never have read, he's a believer, buthas never read all the way through the book of Acts, might not even understand what that
means.
And so how do we identify ourselves as a church to the outside?
Does the greeter visitor process of
(23:40):
how somebody goes all the way from parking lot to pew, is that clear for them?
Like when you go to an airport, is it universal?
Is it really clear that it's a safe place?
Is it clear where their children go?
Is it clear where to pick them up?
Those don't sound like things that lead to growth, but they are things that lead to growthbecause those are the things that detract from your ministry, from your growth.
And then just being visible, your signage on the street, your signage.
(24:02):
We are on the busiest street in this,
the area.
have road front property, but we're at the back end of the property and the front is abig, huge, empty lot.
It's several acres of empty and it's, you know, but people don't know our
in that, in that lot, don't you?
We have a horse, donkeys, goats that are one of the farms next to us is running out.
(24:24):
uh
to make money, but it looks like a farm.
It looks like a farm.
so, you know, we have to invest big money in a big sign.
But you have to have the branding, the website.
Most people are going to hear about you on Google.
And so we are recruiting Google reviews from our congregation because that's the bread andbutter of a local church, like a local business is to kind of get to the top of a Google
(24:47):
search is reviews, more and more reviews.
So we're working on that working on a new website working on a social media team.
We've already put together a media team Now we're gonna put together social media strategyand a calendar We're working on Blog articles written to reach we're in a very heavy LDS
community and there's a guy I've talked about on the podcast before here Cody and Cody hasbeen writing a lot of things aimed at those who come from a Mormon background
(25:14):
and he does it in such a great way because he knows exactly how they think and that's howhe grew up.
to heart because he's coming from that because of his need in his heart.
So I think that's really awesome.
And he does it in a very loving way.
He's not confrontational.
He's not trying to be in a, you know, have an apologetic kind of approach where it's like,I'm debating you.
He's very, very practical, loving, gets right to the heart of the matter and usesscripture.
(25:38):
And so we're going to have probably a week of evangelistic training at some point.
And so, you know, and also incorporate maybe some somebody like Cody into that so we couldreach into our LDS community.
But we'll have like an exchange seminar here.
You know, and so that's one of the things on the bucket list for ah sex.
two open in the fall if you're interested.
(25:59):
Yes, we are interested.
So we'll talk afterwards.
I'm hoping to get a get a good deal from the exchange.
I'm just kidding.
But no, I think that that would be great.
You and Anna could come and see it.
You could stay with us and we'd have a lot of fun.
But anyway, all that to say there's you do have to build this funnel and make sure peopleunderstand that you're there.
(26:19):
You exist so that they know they could come visit you.
But if the when when people get here and there's nowhere for them to go and it looksterrible.
It becomes a dead end.
you've those those.
It's not what we want.
But the reality is street appeal is pretty important.
Yeah, curb appeal, I guess.
So one of the things I know you're going to do I know, because I know you, but I reallybelieve that all of us need to think about this is, and I would say this to every single
(26:47):
pastor who's listening right now the very best way
to get your people excited about outreach is to win someone yourself.
And I would just suggest to every single pastor who's listening, we each one of us need tojust get down on our knees and beg God, God give me a new soul that I can lead to the Lord
(27:10):
and disciple in this next year.
I there's, there's nothing that brings life into a church.
like new converts.
Yeah, I am.
I agree with you.
think, you know, I'm telling people in this vision Sunday on January 14th, I'm going totell my church, these are my goals as your pastor and how I'm going to leverage the staff
(27:31):
and the deacons and all the heads of ministry in our church.
We're going to leverage them to make this plan come alive.
But there's a vision for each and every one of you is that this year you would carry twokinds of relationships this year.
One is that you would
identify people in your life that don't know Jesus Christ as Savior and introduce them toJesus Christ and not only introduce them to Jesus Christ, but that if they accept you,
(27:53):
disciple them and you help them grow and get started in their Christian life and take themtogether until they become what we call at the exchange, you now they're a co-laborer with
you.
The other kind of relationship I think is really important is Timothy, Paul says this toTimothy, older men with younger men, older women with younger women, this
Paul and Timothy kind of relationship.
(28:15):
know, the church needs to be that family, but often in church we form cliques.
And so one of the things that's really important is we all identify, here's one person inthe church that I don't really know well, and I'm gonna get to know them well this year.
I'm gonna do my best to build a friendship with them.
Maybe it's the person that you see, it's unlikely to you that you're gonna build afriendship with them.
(28:35):
Maybe it's the person that you don't kind of like on the outside.
But if all a church is is little segments of people that like each other, and it's not acohesive church family, we're not actually branching out to people that are not like us,
then we're never gonna be the kind of church that's gonna be attractive to unbelievers.
Yeah.
I think it's interesting, George, that that's such a burden to you because that's what Isaw you doing in Nairobi is, is building a church with, with people that would never be
(29:06):
close to each other in any other setting than church.
I, you're, I don't know if we've said this before, but you had three different Sudanesetribes represented in your church family and they don't, I mean, they fight each other in
Sudan.
And it's just really, really cool because that's what that's what God does in a churchfamily.
That's the gospel.
(29:26):
That's the power of the gospel.
If there's anything, these tribes were on different sides of the civil war before thiscountry became a country.
And then now they're a country.
And then they had like this little civil war after they became a country of who gets toactually rule the country and who gets to have the control.
And so, you you're looking at people that say, never go to the same church.
(29:47):
And how on earth could they come to the same church?
There's only one way they could come to the same church is that if they truly understandand get the gospel.
Yeah.
And to me, that's what we all want to get excited about in the church is what the gospelis doing in my life, what the gospel is doing in our church body and what the gospel would
do in my neighbor's life, in my coworkers life, getting excited about the reality of thepower of new life from Jesus.
(30:14):
That's what everybody needs to get excited about.
Yep, no, that's exactly right.
So yeah, that's in a nutshell.
Those are my thoughts thus far.
And I do say, I love that you brought this up and I love that we have pointed this at, andthis is not just for pastors, any Christian, any believer listening to this podcast.
A pastor could never pull the things that we've talked about here off by himself.
(30:37):
it has to be an entire church family buying into this kind of culture and buying into themission and buying into the theology behind the mission.
And if we don't buy into it as Christians in our churches sitting in the pew, then it'snot gonna happen.
I think we're all waiting for something magical to happen up front at the top.
And we all think, know, well, everything rises and falls on leadership.
And in a sense it does, but if people don't follow, it's not much leadership, you know?
(31:00):
And so it's like.
two thoughts about that.
If there's something that we've talked about today, that's not going on in your church,then take it upon yourself to do it.
But but number two, and I think this is critical, your pastor probably sees things in hischurch, that that is not what we talked about today.
And when he gets burdened about it, and and in these
(31:23):
next few weeks as he stands up and says, this is my vision for this next year, justdetermining your heart, I want to get behind that man.
I want to follow the shepherd.
I want to be close to the shepherd.
I want to help the shepherd.
And if if all of our churches were full of people who were living like that, our churcheswould thrive.
(31:43):
Amen.
Amen.
And nothing would encourage your pastor more.
Nothing.
So it's, yeah, we have to be unified.
Amen, amen.
Well, thanks for sharing that with us, George.
Yep, and thank you guys for listening.
uh This podcast wouldn't happen without your love, support, and sharing it with others.
And if you can think of somebody that this would be an encouragement to, if you think thismight be encouraging to your pastor, please give it to him uh or share it with whoever.
(32:08):
And we love you guys.
Pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers.
The harvest is plenious, but the laborers are few.
That I can now attest to.
from experience.
The laborers are few.
So pray the Lord would multiply us.
We love you guys.
We'll see you next week.
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talk Podcast where we help Christians all over the worldbecome more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
My name is George Binoka and with me today is Jeff Musgrave, the founder and author of TheExchange.
And we're so excited to be with you guys.
This is a little bit right after Christmas, just before New Year's.
And uh we want you to think about New Year's resolutions real quick.
(00:22):
I guess this whole episode is kind of about...
a type of New Year resolution except one that we don't often think of.
I I think of like, okay, I got to lose a little bit of weight.
I want to do this.
I want to do that.
I want to clean this room up in my house, clean out the junk drawer.
But those are very this earth kind of resolutions.
I think a resolution that we're thinking about is what would be the resolution for yourchurch, the church family that you're a part of, you as a member of the church, what would
(00:47):
be the New Year's resolution for you?
And we're all the church.
The church is not just the pastors.
It's not just the leadership.
It's not just the deacons.
It's not a building.
It's the people.
So all of you are the church.
You're part of some local church family, I hope.
And in being part of that, we ought to have a goal for this year for 2026.
(01:09):
So
I love I love goals.
Don't you George?
mean, go.
Go.
Goals are uh what drives my life.
I got to have a new one.
Yep, yep, they excite me.
They are exciting.
Yeah, so here I think we've been thinking a lot about goals and so what were you thinkingto talk about today?
mean, what kind of goals do you want to talk about?
(01:30):
Well, I really felt since I think most of you know that George is just taking thepastorate of a of a church that really needs to be revitalized.
And he's super excited about that.
I'm super excited for him and for the church.
And I thought, wow, this is fresh on his brain there.
(01:51):
He's thinking in terms of how can we get this church
up and healthy and running and you know what, what, what steps need to be done.
And I think every single church needs new life.
mean, every, if we could almost say George, that every church needs to be revitalized.
we all need new life.
And I thought if we could just listen, to what God's kind of put on your head and yourheart, in terms of what you need to do, I think we can all learn from that.
(02:17):
So I thought we'd just use that as a template if it's okay.
Oh yeah, sure.
You know, a lot of times when we think revitalization, we think like a complete restart.
I'm actually, I think the Lord has been really gracious to me in the fact that I'm notreally starting where some guys start in a church revitalization, which is like they have
maybe three or four families left.
(02:38):
We have much more than that.
You know, we have 130 on a Sunday, but the church that I'm
family that I'm a part of now has been through a lot of hurt, a lot of change, basicallyhas been kind of on a downturn, steady downturn over the last couple years due to various
reasons.
And, and as I've come in, I've just thought, you know, we, have some goals we're trying todo here.
(03:02):
And we were talking just before the podcast and basically the three areas I'm focused onis truth.
administration and people.
As I've looked across our church family, there are some people that I really want todisciple, get close to.
There are people, not talking to other people, that are not, they are not reconciled, butthey're not having the conversation to have reconciliation.
(03:27):
And so there's a little bit of Matthew 18 going on.
Our administrative
where we are right now administratively.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
just a thought, just for our listeners in, in my mind, there's a major difference betweena replant and a, kind of re strengthening, revitalizing what's here and, definitely see
(03:52):
what you're doing as a revitalization.
That's why I say every church,
needs to be revitalized.
Not every church needs to be replanted.
You know, if if church is down to a couple of families, it needs to be replanted.
If a church is got a hundred people in it and they're just tired and worn out and needinga shepherd, that that's, that's totally different.
(04:14):
Now we just need to revitalize that.
I would dare say George that nearly every church that
the people that we're talking to are in, there are people there that are tired and wornout and the church needs number one, new workers, because that's every church needs more
workers.
Uh, even the early church, that was the biggest problem they have was more work to be donethan people to do the work.
(04:37):
Uh, that was the institutional lay leaders in, uh, um, acts chapter six.
Uh, but when, when we see
any church, it needs to be revitalized.
And I think you're putting the emphasis right in that the very first thought aboutrevitalizing is building up those people, finding the people problems.
(04:59):
But but not just that taking the people who have been the backbone and holding it togetherand and giving them a break and giving them a lift up because they're tired.
Mm-hmm, yep.
No, I think you're exactly right.
I think a lot of us Christians who are in a church, we struggle with the idea of, youknow, it always seems there's some problem, there's something we're dealing with as a
(05:21):
church.
There's always, it's like you fix this thing and then this thing pops out.
And then you fix that thing and then this thing comes undone.
And there's an aspect of ministry, of just being part of a church where...
you are always going to have to go through these cycles of revitalization and adjustmentand a little bit of a pivot.
you're going have to, you're going to be used to doing this thing that was so, soeffective and all of a sudden it's not effective anymore in your neighborhood.
(05:46):
And now you have to change how you approach something.
And we just have to understand that that kind of...
work and busyness and the stress that comes with all that is actually the privilege ofbeing in a ministry that is growing, that God is doing something with.
If you aren't facing any problems, either you're dead as a ministry, right?
(06:07):
If you aren't facing any problems, either you're dead as a ministry or you're justignorant of them.
It's like any growing place faces growing.
pains and if Satan is attacking you as a ministry, if the church has problems and peopleare having problems, is because you are at some level effective.
(06:27):
If he leaves you alone, I don't know what that says about you.
All that to say it's how we deal with the problems.
It's not every ministry, I don't know of a single ministry that doesn't have some kind ofproblem.
I don't know of a single church with some kind of problems.
If you're looking for a perfect church, you're doomed.
But, but
in fact, if you're looking for a church, perfect church, don't join it because it won't beperfect anymore.
(06:48):
Yeah, that's the brutal reality is we bring our problems with us as Christians.
You know, I was just talking to Anna today about, one of the things that I know you'reworking on is helping your church to be safe.
And I think you're working on some of the administrative issues of taking care of childrenand all of the pieces.
But I think even just emotionally, spiritually, socially, I think every single personneeds to be able to walk into church and feel safe.
(07:17):
And what I mean by that is,
If, if we think we have to be perfect to be able to serve in the church, we're never goingto serve.
And so if there are people serving me and serving the church and they make a mistake andmaybe even a sinful one, you know, they got, they lost their temper.
They, they did something selfish.
we all have to let them make those kinds of mistakes because nobody doesn't make thosekinds of mistakes.
(07:42):
We all get selfish.
Sometimes we all,
say things we shouldn't have said and have to go back and repent.
And I mean, that that's just part of life in a family.
we safety says, I'm going to let you make those mistakes and let you correct them andstill love you deeply.
Yeah, and the book of Proverbs says if you don't like the benefits of having an ox, getrid of it.
(08:04):
But part of having an ox is you have to clean up after the ox.
But there's a benefit that comes with that.
you know, it's like sometimes when the older people in our church feel like the kids are anuisance.
Well,
A church with zero kids is a dying church.
It's a doomed church.
I've, I've, we've been a lot of churches that literally you walk in and you immediatelyrecognize it's church.
(08:30):
You're not going to make it because there's no kids and where there's kids, there'snoisiness and they're going to bump you.
Yep.
right now my AV team is teenagers and we're starting to incorporate the teenagers intoworship and the song portion of the worship service.
And so people look at that and go, you know, how can you, how could you trust teenagerswith that?
(08:51):
Well, I mean, that's the future of your church.
So you can't afford not to invest in them and give them opportunities.
And if they
one of the teenagers programmed the slides to auto-forward in our song service this lastSunday, or somebody did.
I don't know if it was one of the teenagers, but anyway, it would jump ahead and he'd haveto hit it back because we weren't done singing the slide.
(09:12):
And so there was this boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom happening in every song.
And at the end, I go up to him and go, so what happened to those slides?
He's like, man, there was an auto-forward and we didn't catch it ahead of time and weshould have deleted it in the transitions on the slide.
And I just looked at him and I go, I'm so impressed that you understand what happened andwhat went wrong and you already have a plan to correct it.
(09:32):
I'm really thankful for your ministry because
that's letting him be safe to do stuff and not be perfect.
Exactly.
I mean, that's part of development is those are the risks we take to develop other peopleand invest in them and see God use them.
And if everything, I was just preaching the Magnificat this Sunday and Mary's worship wasnot canned worship.
(09:58):
It was not manufactured.
It was not artificial.
It was not perfect and prim and proper.
and everything she said she said under inspiration, but she spoke totally from the heart.
says her soul magnified the Lord.
That's where our worship and service ought to come from, from our souls.
If it's all scripted like a choreographed concert, I mean, is it really genuine localchurch worship?
(10:24):
So it's okay to have mistakes.
So I think one of the things that we want to be able to communicate to those who are justchurch members are two twofold.
Number one, we need to give people room to make mistakes.
But number two, we've got to be recognizing that the people around us need to be growing.
(10:48):
And I think I
our friend Brad Steely gets gets real excited about discipleship.
And he says every single person in the church needs to be being discipled and needs to bediscipling someone.
And so I think in terms of how do we help people grow, every one of us ought to be lookingaround and saying who in this church could I get it come alongside of and help them grow.
(11:13):
Yeah.
I think, I think you're a hundred percent right.
Instead of complaining about, you know, where they, where they fall short, we ought tocome alongside and say, how can I help you?
You know,
instead of complaining, you know, our church doesn't do any discipling.
Well, then start discipling, you know, find someone and disciple them.
(11:34):
Yeah, I heard of a pastor who would tell people, you're not allowed to come to me with aproblem until you have a solution for that problem.
Come with both or don't come at all.
you got, I got in mind for sure.
Now I know that one of the things you're trying to do with people is kind of build adiscipling group.
You're you're working on training people in discipleship.
(11:55):
Yeah, I mean, I was talking with one of the deacons here at the church and he's just like,you know, I'd love to know how to do discipleship.
I'd love to know how to win somebody to Christ and then disciple them for a lifetime ofministry.
And I said, why don't we just start a group that meets in my home of families in thechurch who are interested in this sort of thing.
A lot of my younger families with kids are interested in, they have opportunities in theirworkplace and on the sidelines of games and things like that.
(12:21):
And so they just don't
they don't have the training, you the stuff we talk about on this podcast, uh what theexchange ministry does.
So of course I work for the exchange.
So one of the benefits is I have the online course and I can play it on the TV in myliving room and we can create a class, we can create a fishing club.
I think that's what I'm gonna call it.
I'm gonna call it a fishing club.
(12:42):
And so we're gonna go fishing for men.
um so anyway, that's kind of a very small thing, but that makes a big impact.
You know, it is the main thing.
think it may be a small in terms of how many people, but it's the main thing in terms ofwhat you're trying to accomplish.
What are you working on administratively?
So it's boring stuff, but I'm telling you, it's so important to a church.
(13:05):
It's finances, how are deacons meetings streamlined, how are business meetingsstreamlined.
You know, a church business meeting can be a real turnoff.
It could be a turnoff to a visitor, it could be turnoff to your own people.
I know of a church in another state that had a business meeting about a piano.
where people were standing up and shouting at each other across the room.
(13:27):
And some of the young people who grew up at that church have never gone back to thatchurch because of that one business meeting.
Generation Z you have a fight in the church and they're gone.
Yep.
Yeah.
And that's that you're exactly right.
You mean you want to kill a youth group.
You want to kill the future.
What would be your young, young adult group.
Just go ahead and have a fight in your business meeting or have really long ones.
(13:50):
Just unnecessary conversation.
Let's all say the same thing 50 times in the meeting and let's all ask, you know, sameversion of the question.
I'm not saying questions are wrong to ask and it's the prerogative of members to be ableto have discussion and ask questions in a business meeting.
But
At some level, leaders have to be able to garner respect and support from their peopleenough to conduct a business meeting in a Christ-like, orderly manner that would glorify
(14:15):
God.
And then on another level, we all have to realize as the church that business meetingsaren't the main thing of the church.
Actually, we shouldn't even call them business meetings because we're not a business,we're a ministry.
so we have to...
Family, that's a great...
That's a perfect name for what these are.
Some people bring their Robert's Rules of Order to a church meeting and it's like, holdon, that's not the point.
(14:39):
That's just not, wrong place.
Yeah.
And I think I used to have a, a finance guy in our church that would get so excited aboutrolling out the budget because he would say, this is helping us see what God's going to do
in our church this, this year.
And, you know, we are showing our priorities by our budget.
(15:02):
And I think we can make everything ministry.
That's really the issue is.
It's all about ministry.
The only reason we're doing administration is because we're going to do ministryefficiently.
And that's why it's so important to explain to people why you're doing something.
If there's not a good reason why, and you're just doing it and going through the motions,is people get frustrated.
(15:23):
They think it's boring or pointless.
Other thing with finances is that if you as a church are being supported by donors,supported by the tithes of Christians in your church, and if you're not transparent, if
you don't have good accounting practices, if you don't keep track,
of your budget if you don't have spending regulation on the staff and accountability viathe deacons, I think that people lose trust in the financial process and the plate
(15:49):
reflects that.
And so when you can't tell people what you spent and you can't tell them your budgetbecause nobody knows and everybody's looking at around at each other and going, I don't
know what that money is for.
There's a hundred thousand dollars in that account.
What's it for?
And everybody's scratching their head and you go, man, this is really bad.
That's the thing that could kill a church too, because those are the churches that areeasy to embezzle from.
In fact, yeah, that's, that's terrifying.
(16:11):
And I think one of the things we want to do in terms of accountability is not just keeppeople from embezzling, but, to protect the people who are doing it so that if, if there's
ever an accusation, there's plenty of evidence because we have plenty of accountability toprotect them.
Yep, yeah, and that's exactly it.
And you want that accountability and at the same time, you don't want the left handknowing what the right hand is doing.
(16:35):
So I'm not interested in 12 different people having access to the giving records.
I think in a church, I think it's very important for everybody to know, and this is mypersonal opinion, but I as a pastor never want to know what anybody's giving.
I just don't because I don't want it to ever change the way I treat anybody.
I don't want our leadership, our staff to ever know who gives what because that couldaffect how they decide to use benevolence or anything like that.
(16:57):
I just, want people to give to the Lord freely as the Lord leads them and then we ought tominister to them freely.
But there needs to be one person so that giving records can go out for tax season.
But that's kind of, that's another thing we're working on, you know.
Yeah, those are all great things.
And I think the key here for all of our church members who are listening is that in ourchurch, we want to promote and respect administrative responsibilities.
(17:26):
so where do I fit into this process to be able to help it?
And that's really the issue with all of church life is I want my participation to alwaysbe
help.
Even if I have to ask questions about wait a minute, this doesn't seem quite right.
I'm doing it with the intention of I want to make sure that our church is healthy.
(17:48):
And I want to help that to be the case, however I possibly can.
Yeah, and ask good questions and go to people and ask them about the process.
And that's what the church does.
It holds the pastors and deacons accountable.
And so I think that those are really good things.
um so, yeah.
to make sure we have enough time to get down to this third uh aspect here.
(18:09):
And the first two words that you wrote on the notes that you gave to me, I hope you havethem in front of you because I want you to say them.
Those those that number three, just read that first little sentence.
Okay, the one where, application of the sermon round?
No, not in the next one.
Gather.
You're good.
(18:29):
and love are the main ingredients of human growth.
By the way that I didn't come up with that George came up with that I just wanted to Iwanted to hear that from him.
But I love love love that statement, George.
Yeah, it's really what I believe.
Truth and love are the main ingredients because those are the two sides to God, right?
(18:50):
Amet and Chased, those you look all throughout scripture, it's truth and love, truth andmercy, truth and mercy, truth and mercy.
That's the loyal love of God.
And so as I look around as a pastor, I'm asking myself, how do we more effectively unleashthe truth of God on people's lives?
um So that the Holy Spirit can minister through that word To change people because he'sthe one who really changes people I can't change people and then we have to love them too
(19:17):
in the way we do it and before we do it and after we do it we just have to love them andhave relationship and so I'm looking around and going.
Okay.
How do I help my peep my folks in their daily devotions?
Maybe I need to start a podcast for our church and just
do five minutes every morning of here's what I read in my daily devotions, here's the partof scripture we're in, do your best to read this today, pray, here's what I'm praying to
(19:42):
the Lord today, you know, just simple things like that.
How could we change Wednesday nights to be Bible courses to arm people for discipleshipand in their own development as they walk with God to become, to go from just an attender
and member to an administrator, to a minister, you know, um and so somebody who...
into others and what we call the circle of ministry at the exchange.
(20:05):
And so how do we make sure the preaching and the song part of the service, how do we makesure those are more effective with truth and love?
You know, in-home discipleship groups, how do we make in-home small groups happen in ourchurch?
You know, where people are getting that community feel, you know, that love, you know,horizontally between people.
but that they also are again having discussion and application.
(20:29):
And so it's like you preach a sermon on Sunday morning, Sunday night's a great time to getinto a home setting with families and sit around and say, okay, now how do we take that
into our week and let people actually talk?
They've listened already that morning for hours.
Now we let them talk.
And so...
And I think most people learn better when they're when they're espousing, they're talking.
I just have seen that over and over in seminars, we learn a lot more in the discussiontimes than any other times in the seminar.
(20:55):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you.
People, when they have to verbalize something, when they have to speak, it sticks withthem in a way that it doesn't if it's just internalized.
Yeah, and sometimes hearing it from the guy you're sitting next to is really powerful, youknow, and to recognize, hey, this guy's got a heart for God, listen to the way he's
(21:16):
talking, there's something about talking about genuine truth in that loving environmentthat just really connects us with each other.
Yep, no, I agree with you 100%.
But yeah, those are the three areas, people, administration, truth that I've really tryingto hone in on.
I'm not gonna be perfect at it.
I'm not speaking to you guys as a guru because I'm just getting started and we have noidea how it's even gonna go.
(21:42):
know, God's gonna have to do it.
to speak as the expert, I do.
I, I, I love your heart, George.
You always are humble and thinking down the road way down the road.
And I just wanted to get a little bit of that for all of us today to kind of walk down andlisten to a little bit of what's going on inside of your brain as, you're contemplating.
(22:09):
these these new steps in your church.
I think it's helpful to all of us.
Let me play a little bit of a devil's advocate.
That's really not a nice phrase.
I don't know why I even use that phrase, but I don't want to be the devil's anything.
um But, but, you know, all of these things are bringing your people up to healthiness andbringing the church as a whole the body.
(22:33):
to healthiness, which is critical.
mean, that's, that's your first job as your, as a shepherd.
But what are, what are you thinking in regards to, getting new life into the church,reaching people and bringing them in from the outside?
What, I know you're working on that as well.
Yeah, so one of the first things we did is we upped our outreach budget.
(22:55):
We have deferred savings in the bank account and I just kind of, you know, looked at ourdeacons and financial team and said, hey, let's put this to good use.
uh It's great to have a cushion, but it'd be terrible if we died as a church with acushion, you know, so let's start reaching out.
So we just looked all across the ministry.
and identified several areas where we could grow and things that would lead to growth.
(23:18):
Everything from branding, you know, our church is Berean Baptist Church, which comes fromActs 17.
But an unbeliever, an outsider, or somebody who may never have read, he's a believer, buthas never read all the way through the book of Acts, might not even understand what that
means.
And so how do we identify ourselves as a church to the outside?
Does the greeter visitor process of
(23:40):
how somebody goes all the way from parking lot to pew, is that clear for them?
Like when you go to an airport, is it universal?
Is it really clear that it's a safe place?
Is it clear where their children go?
Is it clear where to pick them up?
Those don't sound like things that lead to growth, but they are things that lead to growthbecause those are the things that detract from your ministry, from your growth.
And then just being visible, your signage on the street, your signage.
(24:02):
We are on the busiest street in this,
the area.
have road front property, but we're at the back end of the property and the front is abig, huge, empty lot.
It's several acres of empty and it's, you know, but people don't know our
in that, in that lot, don't you?
We have a horse, donkeys, goats that are one of the farms next to us is running out.
(24:24):
uh
to make money, but it looks like a farm.
It looks like a farm.
so, you know, we have to invest big money in a big sign.
But you have to have the branding, the website.
Most people are going to hear about you on Google.
And so we are recruiting Google reviews from our congregation because that's the bread andbutter of a local church, like a local business is to kind of get to the top of a Google
(24:47):
search is reviews, more and more reviews.
So we're working on that working on a new website working on a social media team.
We've already put together a media team Now we're gonna put together social media strategyand a calendar We're working on Blog articles written to reach we're in a very heavy LDS
community and there's a guy I've talked about on the podcast before here Cody and Cody hasbeen writing a lot of things aimed at those who come from a Mormon background
(25:14):
and he does it in such a great way because he knows exactly how they think and that's howhe grew up.
to heart because he's coming from that because of his need in his heart.
So I think that's really awesome.
And he does it in a very loving way.
He's not confrontational.
He's not trying to be in a, you know, have an apologetic kind of approach where it's like,I'm debating you.
He's very, very practical, loving, gets right to the heart of the matter and usesscripture.
(25:38):
And so we're going to have probably a week of evangelistic training at some point.
And so, you know, and also incorporate maybe some somebody like Cody into that so we couldreach into our LDS community.
But we'll have like an exchange seminar here.
You know, and so that's one of the things on the bucket list for ah sex.
two open in the fall if you're interested.
(25:59):
Yes, we are interested.
So we'll talk afterwards.
I'm hoping to get a get a good deal from the exchange.
I'm just kidding.
But no, I think that that would be great.
You and Anna could come and see it.
You could stay with us and we'd have a lot of fun.
But anyway, all that to say there's you do have to build this funnel and make sure peopleunderstand that you're there.
(26:19):
You exist so that they know they could come visit you.
But if the when when people get here and there's nowhere for them to go and it looksterrible.
It becomes a dead end.
you've those those.
It's not what we want.
But the reality is street appeal is pretty important.
Yeah, curb appeal, I guess.
So one of the things I know you're going to do I know, because I know you, but I reallybelieve that all of us need to think about this is, and I would say this to every single
(26:47):
pastor who's listening right now the very best way
to get your people excited about outreach is to win someone yourself.
And I would just suggest to every single pastor who's listening, we each one of us need tojust get down on our knees and beg God, God give me a new soul that I can lead to the Lord
(27:10):
and disciple in this next year.
I there's, there's nothing that brings life into a church.
like new converts.
Yeah, I am.
I agree with you.
think, you know, I'm telling people in this vision Sunday on January 14th, I'm going totell my church, these are my goals as your pastor and how I'm going to leverage the staff
(27:31):
and the deacons and all the heads of ministry in our church.
We're going to leverage them to make this plan come alive.
But there's a vision for each and every one of you is that this year you would carry twokinds of relationships this year.
One is that you would
identify people in your life that don't know Jesus Christ as Savior and introduce them toJesus Christ and not only introduce them to Jesus Christ, but that if they accept you,
(27:53):
disciple them and you help them grow and get started in their Christian life and take themtogether until they become what we call at the exchange, you now they're a co-laborer with
you.
The other kind of relationship I think is really important is Timothy, Paul says this toTimothy, older men with younger men, older women with younger women, this
Paul and Timothy kind of relationship.
(28:15):
know, the church needs to be that family, but often in church we form cliques.
And so one of the things that's really important is we all identify, here's one person inthe church that I don't really know well, and I'm gonna get to know them well this year.
I'm gonna do my best to build a friendship with them.
Maybe it's the person that you see, it's unlikely to you that you're gonna build afriendship with them.
(28:35):
Maybe it's the person that you don't kind of like on the outside.
But if all a church is is little segments of people that like each other, and it's not acohesive church family, we're not actually branching out to people that are not like us,
then we're never gonna be the kind of church that's gonna be attractive to unbelievers.
Yeah.
I think it's interesting, George, that that's such a burden to you because that's what Isaw you doing in Nairobi is, is building a church with, with people that would never be
(29:06):
close to each other in any other setting than church.
I, you're, I don't know if we've said this before, but you had three different Sudanesetribes represented in your church family and they don't, I mean, they fight each other in
Sudan.
And it's just really, really cool because that's what that's what God does in a churchfamily.
That's the gospel.
(29:26):
That's the power of the gospel.
If there's anything, these tribes were on different sides of the civil war before thiscountry became a country.
And then now they're a country.
And then they had like this little civil war after they became a country of who gets toactually rule the country and who gets to have the control.
And so, you you're looking at people that say, never go to the same church.
(29:47):
And how on earth could they come to the same church?
There's only one way they could come to the same church is that if they truly understandand get the gospel.
Yeah.
And to me, that's what we all want to get excited about in the church is what the gospelis doing in my life, what the gospel is doing in our church body and what the gospel would
do in my neighbor's life, in my coworkers life, getting excited about the reality of thepower of new life from Jesus.
(30:14):
That's what everybody needs to get excited about.
Yep, no, that's exactly right.
So yeah, that's in a nutshell.
Those are my thoughts thus far.
And I do say, I love that you brought this up and I love that we have pointed this at, andthis is not just for pastors, any Christian, any believer listening to this podcast.
A pastor could never pull the things that we've talked about here off by himself.
(30:37):
it has to be an entire church family buying into this kind of culture and buying into themission and buying into the theology behind the mission.
And if we don't buy into it as Christians in our churches sitting in the pew, then it'snot gonna happen.
I think we're all waiting for something magical to happen up front at the top.
And we all think, know, well, everything rises and falls on leadership.
And in a sense it does, but if people don't follow, it's not much leadership, you know?
(31:00):
And so it's like.
two thoughts about that.
If there's something that we've talked about today, that's not going on in your church,then take it upon yourself to do it.
But but number two, and I think this is critical, your pastor probably sees things in hischurch, that that is not what we talked about today.
And when he gets burdened about it, and and in these
(31:23):
next few weeks as he stands up and says, this is my vision for this next year, justdetermining your heart, I want to get behind that man.
I want to follow the shepherd.
I want to be close to the shepherd.
I want to help the shepherd.
And if if all of our churches were full of people who were living like that, our churcheswould thrive.
(31:43):
Amen.
Amen.
And nothing would encourage your pastor more.
Nothing.
So it's, yeah, we have to be unified.
Amen, amen.
Well, thanks for sharing that with us, George.
Yep, and thank you guys for listening.
uh This podcast wouldn't happen without your love, support, and sharing it with others.
And if you can think of somebody that this would be an encouragement to, if you think thismight be encouraging to your pastor, please give it to him uh or share it with whoever.
(32:08):
And we love you guys.
Pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers.
The harvest is plenious, but the laborers are few.
That I can now attest to.
from experience.
The laborers are few.
So pray the Lord would multiply us.
We love you guys.
We'll see you next week.
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