July 11, 2023 • 35 mins
Ever feel like you're trapped in an opinion boxing match, constantly grading others and yourself, with grace being the ultimate knockout punch you never quite land? That's exactly what we, Carri Richard and Ebony Gilbert, dissect in this episode, as we share personal stories and insights about the self-constructed barriers that hinder us from experiencing the transformative power of grace. We examine the minefield of superiority and inferiority, and how they disconnect us from grace, especially when we need it the most.
As we traverse the landscape of grace, we delve into the surprising intersection of grace and accountability. We pull back the layers on how our reactions, oftentimes steeped in entitlement, become invisible walls against grace. The crux of the discussion lies in our exploration of liberating ourselves from the scoreboards we keep in our minds, and embracing the grace-filled approach to life. Plus, we talk about setting boundaries while staying present and knowing when it's time to move on. Get ready for a riveting conversation that will not just enlighten you about grace, but will also inspire you to embrace it in your life and extend it to others.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Grace Among Us, the podcast where we
unearth the many faces andplaces of grace and share
stories of the power of grace inour human lives.
Our desire is that this willinspire you to see grace in your
own life and share it withothers.
Carri Richard (00:18):
Hello, hello, my name is Carri Richard, I am a
mindset coach and I am here withEbony Gilbert, and today we're
here to talk about grace Indeedindeed, I'm Ebony Gilbert, as
(00:38):
Carri stated, and I work in thehealthcare industry, and I'm
happy to be here today to talkabout grace again, awesome, yay.
Carri Richard Well, you know wetalk a lot about the places and
faces and how to see grace.
What does it look like?
Some stories around what gracecan do for people, just really
(01:05):
pointers to grace in the hopesthat you see grace, more grace
in your life, because it'savailable for us all the time.
And I don't know if we havetackled the subject of how do
you block grace?
Because you can turn off thetap to grace, and so that's what
(01:32):
we're going to kind of digaround in today.
So, E bony, would you like meto ask the question to myself to
start?
Ebony Gilbert (01:42):
Please do, please do.
Or you can ask it to me, butlet's get it started.
I'm interested in this one, I'mcurious.
Carri Richard (01:49):
Yeah, me too.
actually, as we've said, wekind of just get together ahead
of time and have a question andwe had some conversation today.
And it really came down to --blocking grace.
And I'll start that if I am onsome sort of ladder, if I am
(02:17):
above the people I'm around,below the people, I'm around,
for whatever reason.
If I have some idea thatthere's a ladder, I don't seem
to be on the level where gracelives.
Ebony Gilbert (02:35):
So whether it's inferior or inferiority or
superiority, Yes yes.
It removes you.
Carri Richard (02:43):
Absolutely.
If I'm judging you in some way,shape or form, or if I'm making
myself better or less than likeyou said, then I'm running the
show.
I've decided that I have becomethe director of the play and
all of the actors are giventheir roles and grace has
(03:05):
nowhere to come in.
And often when I'm in thatplace, especially when I'm on
the lower rung of the ladderactually I don't know if it's
especially, I'll give you anexample If I'm on the lower rung
I really want grace, I wantrelief, I want to feel better.
(03:29):
And I'm actually blocking thatvery thing from happening.
Ebony Gilbert (03:38):
I got you.
I got you, I'm processing.
Carri Richard (03:50):
Yeah, I was, yeah , process away.
I really.
I'll give an example.
So when my son was really young, his father and I had split up
(04:13):
and he had visitation And I wasa single working mom.
I had a full time job and thisbeautiful kid who actually had
some, some extra needs, and whatwould happen sometimes is I
(04:36):
would dress him up and I wouldget his bag, and he would be all
ready for his father to comeget him, and his dad wouldn't
show up.
I would get angry and usually,to be honest, I would have made
plans because I didn't have alot of "adult time, or you know,
(04:56):
time to go do things.
So I would have made plans.
And so now I was angry.
I was - truth be told, I wasprobably dumping it on this poor
little person who was alsosuffering because his dad didn't
show up right and I would say,"poor me, i Don't get to, I
(05:22):
can't believe this is happening".
Not only poor me, but thatperson la da, da, da right.
So I decided to call mySpiritual.
I had a spiritual mentor, thankyou, thanks God, and I said Wah
(05:42):
, wah, wah, I can't.
It actually probably began withI can't Or can you believe ?
one or the other.
Yes, can you believe?
Actually I knew her.
I didn't ask her, "Can youbelieve because she was gonna
shut it down?
So it switched to I can'tbelieve - blah, blah, blah.
(06:03):
And you know what?
She took a deep breath,probably because I went on and
on, and she said one of the mostimportant things to me.
She said, "gary, you are hismother.
You are his mother 24 hours aday, 365 days a year and seven
(06:27):
days a week.
So let's begin there.
You need to accept that you arehis mother 24 by 7, by 365, and
it was like I Did not want tohear that and yet there was a
(06:48):
little bit of grace That waslike "listen to what she's
saying".
And what that did was I couldtake myself down off the ladder
and just look at,"You know what?
I am a mom all this time".
And so what happened for me isI Got the grace and discernment
(07:13):
to - the next time there was avisitation.
I still made plans to go dosomething, but I made plan B.
Plan B was well, if I have tobe the mom 24 by 7, by 365, what
am I gonna do then?
and the next time it happened,all of a sudden I was empowered
(07:34):
because I said, "didn't happen,can't come to the movies or
whatever.
I had planned and And stayedhome and we did something.
I had made another plan and itI'm sure everybody benefited
from it.
I know I did yeah, I believe myson did and in some way His
(07:58):
father did, because I didn't.
But I had, i had to get right-sized.
And then grace flooded in andby God's grace, it Just shifted
it.
You know, I could get on thebandwagon.
"That's not right.
(08:18):
Blah, blah blah and when I dothat, I have nobody else's help.
No help is coming.
Ebony Gilbert (08:29):
Did you feel like you were deserving of this
break?
You know "I worked hard allweek.
I deserved Some adult time, abreak.
I'm entitled" to get use thatword.
(Yeah), "I'm entitled to this.
I do it 20 days out of themonth 25.
(08:51):
You have two days show up?
(Yeah), and how dare you.
(Exactly) Is that the ladderposition?
Carri Richard (08:59):
Yeah, ll of a sudden.
I was up here and this personwas down there.
"How could you?
I can't believe.
.
Can you believe", right?
Ebony Gilbert (09:13):
That's tough Carri, because you do deserve a
break.
It'd be nice, just not notbeing overly spiritual, not
being, you know, too deep andprofound on the surface.
Everybody deserves a day off.
Carri Richard (09:34):
Yes, It's true, and I had to look for it
elsewhere.
I was trying to get my day offfrom a resource that was not
available.
Ebony Gilbert (09:58):
Yeah, that's tough one and I so appreciate
you giving that example.
The example wouldn't havecarried the same weight if it
was something that the generalpopulation wouldn't agree with.
You know It's like.
No, this is true.
You know, when you work yourbutt off, even in a job that's
paying you or a motherhood whereyou are the mom 24 hours a day,
(10:20):
every now and then you mightcut me some slack.
"I need a day off, i need abreak.
You promised it and you shouldkeep your word, and I have every
right to be angry and not showyou grace.
Carri Richard (10:33):
Exactly, and at what cost?
Ebony Gilbert (10:36):
At what cost?
Carri Richard (10:38):
Because when I could let go of that being a
possibility for a day off, Icould go hire a babysitter one
night and choose a day off.
I could do other things, but Ireally put all that
responsibility on that personwho was not capable of
(11:01):
delivering.
Ebony Gilbert (11:08):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Yeah, that's a good one.
That's grace when it doesn'tfeel intuitive.
Carri Richard (11:14):
Yeah, and the grace was really - the grace
began with reaching out for help.
Ebony Gilbert (11:21):
Hey, that part, that part, the gut check.
Carri Richard (11:27):
Exactly.
I could not have come up withall of that on my own Because I
was on that ladder right?
Ebony Gilbert (11:39):
I'm up here, I'm doing all the work.
Carri Richard (11:43):
And I'm going to stay up here and I'm going to
get angrier and I'm going tocomplain.
Ebony Gilbert (11:47):
Which isn't going to change anything.
Carri Richard (11:49):
Exactly So.
sometimes I had - for me - Ihad to step down, let go of the
entitlement or even the pride,and reach out and talk it
through.
Ebony Gilbert (12:07):
Pride and entitlement, which one was
bigger?
Carri Richard (12:10):
Entitlement.
That one entitlement.
"Wait a second.
I'm doing all the things.
Why aren't you doing the things
Ebony Gilbert (12:22):
Yeah, it's already unfair.
It's already.
I'm already at a disadvantagehere.
Let me pour some more on top.
The least you can do is yes,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's interesting.
Carri Richard (12:38):
Yeah.
Ebony Gilbert (12:39):
So you were blocking grace, the grace that
you could give and extend, butit sounds like more than that, I
mean
Carri Richard (12:57):
I could have died on that hill over and over and
over.
Every time it happened.
I could have died on that hillagain And by God's grace I
didn't.
I can tell you that I only hadto do it a couple times And that
(13:19):
is by the grace of God, becauseleft to my own devices, that's
exactly what I'd done.
I would have died over and overagain.
And this little person wouldhave watched that happen.
Ebony Gilbert (13:30):
Just marching through the wilderness.
And that's over and over again.
Carri Richard (13:33):
That's really where the grace is.
Ebony Gilbert (13:36):
Gotcha.
Carri Richard (13:37):
Because he did not have to live through hearing
anything about the situation,the person making a different
choice, if that makes sense.
Ebony Gilbert (13:50):
No, it does make sense.
Carri Richard (13:52):
And that is by God's grace.
Ebony Gilbert (13:59):
Thank God for your spiritual mentor.
Carri Richard (14:04):
For sure.
Ebony Gilbert (14:06):
I think it touches on what we say all the
time.
Usually at the end of thepodcast we talk about a
community.
Don't do life alone.
Find somebody, connect withsomeone who can help you.
Because do you think you wouldhave come to that conclusion on
your own, without that?
Carri Richard (14:21):
No, no, I'm pretty sure of it, because it
was very triggered.
I mean, it was visceral, and Ihad all kinds of stories, and
they were all pointing tojudgment really.
Ebony Gilbert (14:38):
Yeah, that's the word right there.
Yeah, we get on that ladder Andit's like, depending on my
position, there's a better thanand less than.
Carri Richard (14:51):
And then there's the other side of the ladder.
So can you think of an exampleof being on the other side of
the ladder?
Ebony Gilbert (15:04):
On the bottom end of the ladder?
Yeah, yeah, I can think of anexample I I , not be Hi, what
you're looking for.
Where the person higher up onthe ladder, saying some things
to me that felt very unfair.
Carri Richard (15:27):
Very unfair.
Ebony Gilbert (15:31):
Now, from a hierarchy standpoint, this
person is higher on the ladder.
But from a people in my owninternal judgment standpoint, I
felt higher up on the ladder.
Because I thought "yourposition gives you authority.
How much I know you need megives me authority.
(15:53):
Oh, so you guys were doing that,yeah, we're playing the game
together, we're just marchingalong.
"Who's in front today?
But in this particular example,the position of authority is
what granted that feeling of"you're above me, and it gave
(16:13):
this person the perceivedpermission to say things to me
that felt very inferior and feltvery condescending and very
unkind, not very graceful.
It was very challenging in themoment to not just lash back And
(16:38):
I had - the wheels had to startturning very quickly.
"Okay, okay, Ebony, you stillhave to work with this person,
you still got to show uptomorrow.
So if you lash back out, thisperson whose position is higher
than yours, can make your lifereal difficult".
But, more importantly, I'm notoperating in grace And I've got
(17:04):
to take some personalaccountability for what's
happening here, right?
I don't get to weaponize allthe previous acts of grace
against this person in thismoment, you know?
Carri Richard (17:17):
"Hey, remember when I.
What about when I?
Ebony Gilbert (17:20):
"But I had your back and I hope you with this
and I helped you with that", andI I'm thinking about your
example, thinking about my own,and I have a tendency to want to
do that.
It's keeping score.
Yes So every time I've donesomething nice.
Carri Richard (17:36):
Yeah, bring the evidence, bring the receipts.
Give me the receipts You know,right.
It's like when you're in court,who's in the middle?
Yeah, the judge.
Ebony Gilbert (17:50):
So I had to operate in some grace And when I
remove the ladder from the room, just took it out, kicked out
the room and just talked on aone on one human level, without
the judgment, without feelingpersonally attacked, and just, "
taking.
We get to the core of thisbecause I I feel like your heart
is good And I think mine isgood And we're on equal playing
(18:14):
fields at this point".
So just person to person, Itake accountability for clearly
having done something to makeyou feel this way.
How do we make it better?
And in that very moment thetone changed.
Now it doesn't always happenlike this, it's not always
immediate, it's not always aquick and very moment of tone
change in the person.
(18:34):
"Listen, i'm sorry, you know,and the whole conversation went
a different level but with thatladder came to the room, we
walked in with both of ourladders on the back and we were
running up and down it dependingon the point in the
conversation, and it was.
It was pretty convicting for me.
It was.
It was definitely a pivotalmoment in my career and my life
(18:58):
in general about how I judgesituations and people, how my
mind will weaponize previousacts of kindness to my advantage
when I feel like I'm beingmistreated.
It was just so not cool.
Carri Richard (19:19):
You just gave me like an image of those previous
acts of kindness, kind ofpulling them out of your
backpack and putting, puttinganother rung on the ladder and
kind of like stepping up thatrung.
Yeah.
Ebony Gilbert (19:34):
wants to think that the person being nice to
you is going to keep score andthrow it in your face, even if I
never said it And I never eventhought it, if I'm being honest
with you.
But in that moment, this rushof, "how dear you, have you
forgotten 12345?
(19:58):
have you forgotten all thesethings?
and you know, by the time thatwas all over, i was more upset
with myself than I was thisperson.
I felt like I came out ofcharacter and I abused grace and
I misused it in the sense ofentitlement that I have, was
really misplaced And I needed toget off that ladder And I was
(20:21):
blocking the grace that thisperson ended up showing me
because I could have reactedreally poorly.
I could have stayed in myladder position And it would
have blocked the grace that theyended up giving me.
I could have blocked the gracethat God was whispering to me to
give to this person, you know,but I couldn't feel it, see it
or receive it.
Carri Richard (20:42):
It's like the great equalizer We got to.
I love that.
the image to have like throwingthe ladders out of the room.
Ebony Gilbert (20:51):
Okay, you're on a ladder I can't be on the
sidewalk and you're onscaffolding, like we've got to
be.
Carri Richard (20:59):
Let's get rid of mine and see if you'll get rid
of yours.
Yeah because it's got to startwith me.
I can't I can't ask anybody todo anything that I haven't
already done first.
Ebony Gilbert (21:16):
What are you doing?
that's hard.
That's just not easy.
When you feel like you'returning the cheek constantly,
you just get slapped around.
Carri Richard (21:26):
That's a great question.
Ebony Gilbert (21:29):
How do you handle that?
It's easy to show somebodygrace if it's a one-off feel
like, ah, they're having a badday, give us some grace.
But when it's over, and, overand over again the person
doesn't show up every weekend,you're late every time, like
what then?
Carri Richard (21:45):
Well, it's the more well for the example of
them not showing up everyweekend.
It was just continuing to showgrace Because I didn't have a
choice.
I didn't have a choice ofsaying, well, then don't come at
all.
That wasn't my choice.
(22:06):
Now I looked at that, but itwasn't my choice, so it's again
staying in that.
You know, can I do anythinghere?
And if I can, you know, if Ican't change the situation, then
how do I be in the situation?
(22:27):
And sometimes I do have achoice.
Kick the dust off my shoes andkeep moving.
But I only can get thatdiscernment if I'm acting from
(22:47):
grace, right, or with grace.
Ebony Gilbert (22:55):
I used to have a mentor who was saying I was
complaining about all kind ofcrap.
That's a long time ago, Iwouldn't do that anymore.
But I was complaining and shewas saying to me who told you
someone owed you kindness today?
Who told you you were deservingof everyone on your path to
(23:19):
have an equally good day andtreat you as such.
Are people not allowed to haveoff days?
Are people not allowed to justnot do you today?
I thought, well, why would theydo that?
I was being nice, why wouldn'tthey be nice to me?
To me, this is reciprocal, it'sautomatic.
It was touching one thatentitlement, and that ladder.
Carri Richard (23:44):
Like the running scorecard.
Ebony Gilbert (23:46):
Yeah, it took her saying that for about two years
.
Carri Richard (23:55):
So that's a really good point.
right, That is a really goodpoint.
It takes practice.
I would love to say, "I know,when I'm on a ladder and I just
throw it away and everything'sgreat, I'm always - peace all
the time", and that's not true.
And sometimes it's after thefact, it's like okay, wait a
(24:22):
second, this is not going well.
Like am I on a ladder?
I had some tough stuff happento me in my life.
And I was given lots of gracein the process.
Some I could see, some Icouldn't see, and that kind of
(24:50):
those kind of I'll use the wordtragedy right, that kind of
tragedy.
I can put myself on a ladderaround that too.
Ebony Gilbert (25:01):
Yes.
Carri Richard (25:02):
Like, if I hold on to that tragedy and decide
that that entitles me to graceor entitles me for people to be
really nice to me because I'vehad a tough time, then that
actually blocks the grace I'mreally desiring.
Ebony Gilbert (25:24):
Yes.
Carri Richard (25:26):
And it's getting back up off that ladder right.
Wait a second.
Other people have tragedy too.
Ebony Gilbert (25:33):
Correct.
Carri Richard (25:34):
It doesn't negate the tragedy, it doesn't negate
the feelings, but it does notgive me like extra tickets in my
pocket for grace.
Ebony Gilbert (25:49):
Oh, good, tell, Do, tell Well shortly after my
stomach removal I'd been out ofcommission for several months I
entered this contest that I wasasked to enter.
I didn't go looking for it.
This is an important part ofthe story.
Okay, i was asked to enter thiscontest The contest that it was
called healthcare champion Andyou have to tell this story
(26:14):
about this forum, tell yourstory about a recent healthcare
challenge and how you overcameit.
And I thought surely no one'sgot anything better than this.
I am winning this, i am goingon this trip And you asked me to
do this and you're part of thejudgment committee.
Surely, this is in the bag,because who else, who, Yeah?
(26:45):
else has it this bad?
Carri Richard (26:49):
Where was the trip?
to Just sidebar?
Ebony Gilbert (26:52):
Oh, anywhere.
you want to go Up to $10,000for a week.
Carri Richard (26:55):
Oh, that's lovely .
Ebony Gilbert (26:56):
Yeah, we will go.
Carri Richard (26:57):
Continue.
Ebony Gilbert (26:59):
Yeah, yeah, i need this.
God knows I deserve this.
I've been locked in the housefor months.
I've taught myself to do allthese things again.
My story's very public.
I'm going to win.
Well, not only did I not win, Ididn't come in come second,
(27:20):
third or fourth place, therewasn't even honorable mention.
Carri Richard (27:28):
You were nowhere to be found, nowhere.
Ebony Gilbert (27:32):
And for several weeks I was pretty bitter and
angry.
Matter of fact, i was soindignant that I refused to even
read the stories of the peoplewho won.
(I totally get that!) "Ican't support this.
I could laugh about it now.
(27:57):
And so no lie, the so the girlwas hot, Okay?
When I finally did read thosestories, it became very clear to
me why those people won.
Oh, it was so obvious And Ifelt this big.
Carri Richard (28:15):
So what did you see when you were ready to see?
Ebony Gilbert (28:21):
I saw that.
what a couple of things.
I crafted a very well writtenstory And in my mind that should
have gotten me some points Okay.
Carri Richard (28:32):
Yeah.
Ebony Gilbert (28:32):
This thing is beautiful.
It's got all the SAT words.
I'm evoking emotion.
I've checked all the boxes forgood storytelling.
I have a ramp up in a companyYou know, it ends well.
It's got an arc, oh yes, and thearc is perfect And it's a
compelling story.
You know, I was mistreated.
(28:53):
It has trauma, it has tragedy,it has recovery, it has
resilience.
It's got all the things.
When I read these stories thatwon.
I read about people andfamilies And I read about crisis
.
I didn't read a.
(29:13):
Mine could have read as afictional book, a bestseller
fictional book, you know, verywell written book.
But when I read their stories,they touched my heart And I was
drawn into who these people wereAnd I wanted to reach out to
them and say, hey, let's chat.
How can we help each other?
It was a totally differentthing.
(29:34):
And then I went back and readmy own story.
I thought this is good.
I should sell this to somebody.
It isn't even.
It's a good story, but theseare people's lives who need a
trip.
They need a break.
I would like it.
It'd be cool.
You know, and before I allowedmyself to see those stories for
(30:01):
what they were and to take agood look at myself and what I
was doing, i couldn't see it andyou wouldn't have been able to
convince me otherwise.
Okay, yeah, these people hadchallenges.
It brought all my own crap intoperspective, Carri, and it
humbled me Like, okay, i had itbad, but not that bad.
Carri Richard (30:26):
There's grace in that.
Ebony Gilbert (30:29):
It sucked, but I was surrounded by family and
friends And there was a solutionAnd I could see clearly.
One of the stories.
the lady didn't even have useof a hand And in the story she
says my apologies for any errors, as this is being dictated by
my computer because I don't haveuse of my hands.
(30:51):
I want to get choked up And Ithought, oh my God, like I'm
sitting here complaining BecauseI didn't have.
I didn't win a contest forsomething I took less than 20
minutes to type up off the sideof my desk And it messed me up.
It messed me up And it took meoff that ladder.
(31:14):
The ladder went away And itchanged the way I framed the
story about my healthcarejourney completely And it put me
in a space of gratitude andgrace and nobody owes me
anything.
The world didn't make me anypromises.
I mean it's.
(31:35):
I didn't think about the story.
We first started talking butwhoo, Absolutely changed the
things.
Carri Richard (31:43):
I love it.
That's such a beautiful exampleAnd I appreciate your realness
about your bitterness and I wasmad At the time And and I'm And
just the realness I was real mad.
You reminded me.
you know you had that period oftime where you're like I'm not
even reading.
(32:04):
these stories Are you kiddingme Like who decided this right,
This, this entitlement?
But sometimes it takes time.
It took time, Absolutely.
Ebony Gilbert (32:20):
It took time.
Carri Richard (32:21):
And grace And I got curious, yeah, yeah.
And that's like all you need.
All you need is a crack.
just a little bit crack thedoor open, and grace is very
patient, always waiting.
Ebony Gilbert (32:40):
And it showed up.
But I had to step off theladder.
Carri Richard (32:46):
Yeah, and you got more than you probably
bargained for.
Ebony Gilbert (32:51):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
That was a good loss.
Carri Richard (32:56):
Yeah.
Ebony Gilbert (32:57):
Did me some good.
Carri Richard (32:59):
I love that.
Ebony Gilbert (33:00):
It's a little embarrassing, you know, in
hindsight, but it worked out inthe end for me.
I just knew I had it.
Carri Richard (33:16):
I think we've done a good workout on how to
block grace today.
How do you feel?
Ebony Gilbert (33:22):
Yeah, i think we have.
I think we have And you knowwe've touched on so many things
in the past few minutes of howto block grace come off the
ladder.
Entitlement judgment.
Carri Richard (33:44):
absolutely, absolutely, and as you listen,
you know, as you, you, you canfeel, hopefully people can
relate to what it feels like tobe on that ladder Cause then,
when we know, when we're awarewe're on the ladder, there's
hopefully new choices.
Ebony Gilbert (34:03):
Yeah, absolutely The irony.
in In.
closing, when take yourself offthat ladder, .
This view you are above theworld.
Take yourself off of thatladder and you ground yourself,
place your feet on the groundand get humble.
Your vision actually getsbetter.
Carri Richard (34:22):
Yes.
Ebony Gilbert (34:23):
Your vantage point is so much better.
You can see the grace, you canreceive the grace.
It can flow through you, it canflow to you from you.
So your perspective, yourvantage point, is better on the
ground, get off the ladder, andthat speaks to me, that's for me
.
Carri Richard (34:44):
I love it, me too .
Ebony Gilbert (34:47):
Yeah.
Carri Richard (34:49):
Thank you, awesome Thank you.
Thank you, i think we, i thinkI love.
Ebony Gilbert (34:54):
As always, you wrap it up wonderfully and You
started this off when you'revulnerable space and I said, hey
, she can do it, i can do it.
Carri Richard (35:04):
We did it We did it Awesome, awesome.
Well, it's been wonderful.
And again, anybody has aquestion or a topic or anything
about grace, let us know.
Ebony Gilbert (35:18):
So indeed, until time, until next time
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you enjoyed this episode,please let us know.
We love to hear from you andshare it with a friend.
Also, please be sure tosubscribe so you're notified
when a new episode is posted.
We hope you're leaving withanother pointer to grace, a new
perspective that will light itup in your own life.
Until next time, be well, bebold, be kind to yourself and be
(35:48):
on the lookout.
Welcome to Grace Among Us, the podcast where we
unearth the many faces andplaces of grace and share
stories of the power of grace inour human lives.
Our desire is that this willinspire you to see grace in your
own life and share it withothers.
Carri Richard (00:18):
Hello, hello, my name is Carri Richard, I am a
mindset coach and I am here withEbony Gilbert, and today we're
here to talk about grace Indeedindeed, I'm Ebony Gilbert, as
(00:38):
Carri stated, and I work in thehealthcare industry, and I'm
happy to be here today to talkabout grace again, awesome, yay.
Carri Richard Well, you know wetalk a lot about the places and
faces and how to see grace.
What does it look like?
Some stories around what gracecan do for people, just really
(01:05):
pointers to grace in the hopesthat you see grace, more grace
in your life, because it'savailable for us all the time.
And I don't know if we havetackled the subject of how do
you block grace?
Because you can turn off thetap to grace, and so that's what
(01:32):
we're going to kind of digaround in today.
So, E bony, would you like meto ask the question to myself to
start?
Ebony Gilbert (01:42):
Please do, please do.
Or you can ask it to me, butlet's get it started.
I'm interested in this one, I'mcurious.
Carri Richard (01:49):
Yeah, me too.
actually, as we've said, wekind of just get together ahead
of time and have a question andwe had some conversation today.
And it really came down to --blocking grace.
And I'll start that if I am onsome sort of ladder, if I am
(02:17):
above the people I'm around,below the people, I'm around,
for whatever reason.
If I have some idea thatthere's a ladder, I don't seem
to be on the level where gracelives.
Ebony Gilbert (02:35):
So whether it's inferior or inferiority or
superiority, Yes yes.
It removes you.
Carri Richard (02:43):
Absolutely.
If I'm judging you in some way,shape or form, or if I'm making
myself better or less than likeyou said, then I'm running the
show.
I've decided that I have becomethe director of the play and
all of the actors are giventheir roles and grace has
(03:05):
nowhere to come in.
And often when I'm in thatplace, especially when I'm on
the lower rung of the ladderactually I don't know if it's
especially, I'll give you anexample If I'm on the lower rung
I really want grace, I wantrelief, I want to feel better.
(03:29):
And I'm actually blocking thatvery thing from happening.
Ebony Gilbert (03:38):
I got you.
I got you, I'm processing.
Carri Richard (03:50):
Yeah, I was, yeah , process away.
I really.
I'll give an example.
So when my son was really young, his father and I had split up
(04:13):
and he had visitation And I wasa single working mom.
I had a full time job and thisbeautiful kid who actually had
some, some extra needs, and whatwould happen sometimes is I
(04:36):
would dress him up and I wouldget his bag, and he would be all
ready for his father to comeget him, and his dad wouldn't
show up.
I would get angry and usually,to be honest, I would have made
plans because I didn't have alot of "adult time, or you know,
(04:56):
time to go do things.
So I would have made plans.
And so now I was angry.
I was - truth be told, I wasprobably dumping it on this poor
little person who was alsosuffering because his dad didn't
show up right and I would say,"poor me, i Don't get to, I
(05:22):
can't believe this is happening".
Not only poor me, but thatperson la da, da, da right.
So I decided to call mySpiritual.
I had a spiritual mentor, thankyou, thanks God, and I said Wah
(05:42):
, wah, wah, I can't.
It actually probably began withI can't Or can you believe ?
one or the other.
Yes, can you believe?
Actually I knew her.
I didn't ask her, "Can youbelieve because she was gonna
shut it down?
So it switched to I can'tbelieve - blah, blah, blah.
(06:03):
And you know what?
She took a deep breath,probably because I went on and
on, and she said one of the mostimportant things to me.
She said, "gary, you are hismother.
You are his mother 24 hours aday, 365 days a year and seven
(06:27):
days a week.
So let's begin there.
You need to accept that you arehis mother 24 by 7, by 365, and
it was like I Did not want tohear that and yet there was a
(06:48):
little bit of grace That waslike "listen to what she's
saying".
And what that did was I couldtake myself down off the ladder
and just look at,"You know what?
I am a mom all this time".
And so what happened for me isI Got the grace and discernment
(07:13):
to - the next time there was avisitation.
I still made plans to go dosomething, but I made plan B.
Plan B was well, if I have tobe the mom 24 by 7, by 365, what
am I gonna do then?
and the next time it happened,all of a sudden I was empowered
(07:34):
because I said, "didn't happen,can't come to the movies or
whatever.
I had planned and And stayedhome and we did something.
I had made another plan and itI'm sure everybody benefited
from it.
I know I did yeah, I believe myson did and in some way His
(07:58):
father did, because I didn't.
But I had, i had to get right-sized.
And then grace flooded in andby God's grace, it Just shifted
it.
You know, I could get on thebandwagon.
"That's not right.
(08:18):
Blah, blah blah and when I dothat, I have nobody else's help.
No help is coming.
Ebony Gilbert (08:29):
Did you feel like you were deserving of this
break?
You know "I worked hard allweek.
I deserved Some adult time, abreak.
I'm entitled" to get use thatword.
(Yeah), "I'm entitled to this.
I do it 20 days out of themonth 25.
(08:51):
You have two days show up?
(Yeah), and how dare you.
(Exactly) Is that the ladderposition?
Carri Richard (08:59):
Yeah, ll of a sudden.
I was up here and this personwas down there.
"How could you?
I can't believe.
.
Can you believe", right?
Ebony Gilbert (09:13):
That's tough Carri, because you do deserve a
break.
It'd be nice, just not notbeing overly spiritual, not
being, you know, too deep andprofound on the surface.
Everybody deserves a day off.
Carri Richard (09:34):
Yes, It's true, and I had to look for it
elsewhere.
I was trying to get my day offfrom a resource that was not
available.
Ebony Gilbert (09:58):
Yeah, that's tough one and I so appreciate
you giving that example.
The example wouldn't havecarried the same weight if it
was something that the generalpopulation wouldn't agree with.
You know It's like.
No, this is true.
You know, when you work yourbutt off, even in a job that's
paying you or a motherhood whereyou are the mom 24 hours a day,
(10:20):
every now and then you mightcut me some slack.
"I need a day off, i need abreak.
You promised it and you shouldkeep your word, and I have every
right to be angry and not showyou grace.
Carri Richard (10:33):
Exactly, and at what cost?
Ebony Gilbert (10:36):
At what cost?
Carri Richard (10:38):
Because when I could let go of that being a
possibility for a day off, Icould go hire a babysitter one
night and choose a day off.
I could do other things, but Ireally put all that
responsibility on that personwho was not capable of
(11:01):
delivering.
Ebony Gilbert (11:08):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Yeah, that's a good one.
That's grace when it doesn'tfeel intuitive.
Carri Richard (11:14):
Yeah, and the grace was really - the grace
began with reaching out for help.
Ebony Gilbert (11:21):
Hey, that part, that part, the gut check.
Carri Richard (11:27):
Exactly.
I could not have come up withall of that on my own Because I
was on that ladder right?
Ebony Gilbert (11:39):
I'm up here, I'm doing all the work.
Carri Richard (11:43):
And I'm going to stay up here and I'm going to
get angrier and I'm going tocomplain.
Ebony Gilbert (11:47):
Which isn't going to change anything.
Carri Richard (11:49):
Exactly So.
sometimes I had - for me - Ihad to step down, let go of the
entitlement or even the pride,and reach out and talk it
through.
Ebony Gilbert (12:07):
Pride and entitlement, which one was
bigger?
Carri Richard (12:10):
Entitlement.
That one entitlement.
"Wait a second.
I'm doing all the things.
Why aren't you doing the things
Ebony Gilbert (12:22):
Yeah, it's already unfair.
It's already.
I'm already at a disadvantagehere.
Let me pour some more on top.
The least you can do is yes,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's interesting.
Carri Richard (12:38):
Yeah.
Ebony Gilbert (12:39):
So you were blocking grace, the grace that
you could give and extend, butit sounds like more than that, I
mean
Carri Richard (12:57):
I could have died on that hill over and over and
over.
Every time it happened.
I could have died on that hillagain And by God's grace I
didn't.
I can tell you that I only hadto do it a couple times And that
(13:19):
is by the grace of God, becauseleft to my own devices, that's
exactly what I'd done.
I would have died over and overagain.
And this little person wouldhave watched that happen.
Ebony Gilbert (13:30):
Just marching through the wilderness.
And that's over and over again.
Carri Richard (13:33):
That's really where the grace is.
Ebony Gilbert (13:36):
Gotcha.
Carri Richard (13:37):
Because he did not have to live through hearing
anything about the situation,the person making a different
choice, if that makes sense.
Ebony Gilbert (13:50):
No, it does make sense.
Carri Richard (13:52):
And that is by God's grace.
Ebony Gilbert (13:59):
Thank God for your spiritual mentor.
Carri Richard (14:04):
For sure.
Ebony Gilbert (14:06):
I think it touches on what we say all the
time.
Usually at the end of thepodcast we talk about a
community.
Don't do life alone.
Find somebody, connect withsomeone who can help you.
Because do you think you wouldhave come to that conclusion on
your own, without that?
Carri Richard (14:21):
No, no, I'm pretty sure of it, because it
was very triggered.
I mean, it was visceral, and Ihad all kinds of stories, and
they were all pointing tojudgment really.
Ebony Gilbert (14:38):
Yeah, that's the word right there.
Yeah, we get on that ladder Andit's like, depending on my
position, there's a better thanand less than.
Carri Richard (14:51):
And then there's the other side of the ladder.
So can you think of an exampleof being on the other side of
the ladder?
Ebony Gilbert (15:04):
On the bottom end of the ladder?
Yeah, yeah, I can think of anexample I I , not be Hi, what
you're looking for.
Where the person higher up onthe ladder, saying some things
to me that felt very unfair.
Carri Richard (15:27):
Very unfair.
Ebony Gilbert (15:31):
Now, from a hierarchy standpoint, this
person is higher on the ladder.
But from a people in my owninternal judgment standpoint, I
felt higher up on the ladder.
Because I thought "yourposition gives you authority.
How much I know you need megives me authority.
(15:53):
Oh, so you guys were doing that,yeah, we're playing the game
together, we're just marchingalong.
"Who's in front today?
But in this particular example,the position of authority is
what granted that feeling of"you're above me, and it gave
(16:13):
this person the perceivedpermission to say things to me
that felt very inferior and feltvery condescending and very
unkind, not very graceful.
It was very challenging in themoment to not just lash back And
(16:38):
I had - the wheels had to startturning very quickly.
"Okay, okay, Ebony, you stillhave to work with this person,
you still got to show uptomorrow.
So if you lash back out, thisperson whose position is higher
than yours, can make your lifereal difficult".
But, more importantly, I'm notoperating in grace And I've got
(17:04):
to take some personalaccountability for what's
happening here, right?
I don't get to weaponize allthe previous acts of grace
against this person in thismoment, you know?
Carri Richard (17:17):
"Hey, remember when I.
What about when I?
Ebony Gilbert (17:20):
"But I had your back and I hope you with this
and I helped you with that", andI I'm thinking about your
example, thinking about my own,and I have a tendency to want to
do that.
It's keeping score.
Yes So every time I've donesomething nice.
Carri Richard (17:36):
Yeah, bring the evidence, bring the receipts.
Give me the receipts You know,right.
It's like when you're in court,who's in the middle?
Yeah, the judge.
Ebony Gilbert (17:50):
So I had to operate in some grace And when I
remove the ladder from the room, just took it out, kicked out
the room and just talked on aone on one human level, without
the judgment, without feelingpersonally attacked, and just, "
taking.
We get to the core of thisbecause I I feel like your heart
is good And I think mine isgood And we're on equal playing
(18:14):
fields at this point".
So just person to person, Itake accountability for clearly
having done something to makeyou feel this way.
How do we make it better?
And in that very moment thetone changed.
Now it doesn't always happenlike this, it's not always
immediate, it's not always aquick and very moment of tone
change in the person.
(18:34):
"Listen, i'm sorry, you know,and the whole conversation went
a different level but with thatladder came to the room, we
walked in with both of ourladders on the back and we were
running up and down it dependingon the point in the
conversation, and it was.
It was pretty convicting for me.
It was.
It was definitely a pivotalmoment in my career and my life
(18:58):
in general about how I judgesituations and people, how my
mind will weaponize previousacts of kindness to my advantage
when I feel like I'm beingmistreated.
It was just so not cool.
Carri Richard (19:19):
You just gave me like an image of those previous
acts of kindness, kind ofpulling them out of your
backpack and putting, puttinganother rung on the ladder and
kind of like stepping up thatrung.
Yeah.
Ebony Gilbert (19:34):
wants to think that the person being nice to
you is going to keep score andthrow it in your face, even if I
never said it And I never eventhought it, if I'm being honest
with you.
But in that moment, this rushof, "how dear you, have you
forgotten 12345?
(19:58):
have you forgotten all thesethings?
and you know, by the time thatwas all over, i was more upset
with myself than I was thisperson.
I felt like I came out ofcharacter and I abused grace and
I misused it in the sense ofentitlement that I have, was
really misplaced And I needed toget off that ladder And I was
(20:21):
blocking the grace that thisperson ended up showing me
because I could have reactedreally poorly.
I could have stayed in myladder position And it would
have blocked the grace that theyended up giving me.
I could have blocked the gracethat God was whispering to me to
give to this person, you know,but I couldn't feel it, see it
or receive it.
Carri Richard (20:42):
It's like the great equalizer We got to.
I love that.
the image to have like throwingthe ladders out of the room.
Ebony Gilbert (20:51):
Okay, you're on a ladder I can't be on the
sidewalk and you're onscaffolding, like we've got to
be.
Carri Richard (20:59):
Let's get rid of mine and see if you'll get rid
of yours.
Yeah because it's got to startwith me.
I can't I can't ask anybody todo anything that I haven't
already done first.
Ebony Gilbert (21:16):
What are you doing?
that's hard.
That's just not easy.
When you feel like you'returning the cheek constantly,
you just get slapped around.
Carri Richard (21:26):
That's a great question.
Ebony Gilbert (21:29):
How do you handle that?
It's easy to show somebodygrace if it's a one-off feel
like, ah, they're having a badday, give us some grace.
But when it's over, and, overand over again the person
doesn't show up every weekend,you're late every time, like
what then?
Carri Richard (21:45):
Well, it's the more well for the example of
them not showing up everyweekend.
It was just continuing to showgrace Because I didn't have a
choice.
I didn't have a choice ofsaying, well, then don't come at
all.
That wasn't my choice.
(22:06):
Now I looked at that, but itwasn't my choice, so it's again
staying in that.
You know, can I do anythinghere?
And if I can, you know, if Ican't change the situation, then
how do I be in the situation?
(22:27):
And sometimes I do have achoice.
Kick the dust off my shoes andkeep moving.
But I only can get thatdiscernment if I'm acting from
(22:47):
grace, right, or with grace.
Ebony Gilbert (22:55):
I used to have a mentor who was saying I was
complaining about all kind ofcrap.
That's a long time ago, Iwouldn't do that anymore.
But I was complaining and shewas saying to me who told you
someone owed you kindness today?
Who told you you were deservingof everyone on your path to
(23:19):
have an equally good day andtreat you as such.
Are people not allowed to haveoff days?
Are people not allowed to justnot do you today?
I thought, well, why would theydo that?
I was being nice, why wouldn'tthey be nice to me?
To me, this is reciprocal, it'sautomatic.
It was touching one thatentitlement, and that ladder.
Carri Richard (23:44):
Like the running scorecard.
Ebony Gilbert (23:46):
Yeah, it took her saying that for about two years
.
Carri Richard (23:55):
So that's a really good point.
right, That is a really goodpoint.
It takes practice.
I would love to say, "I know,when I'm on a ladder and I just
throw it away and everything'sgreat, I'm always - peace all
the time", and that's not true.
And sometimes it's after thefact, it's like okay, wait a
(24:22):
second, this is not going well.
Like am I on a ladder?
I had some tough stuff happento me in my life.
And I was given lots of gracein the process.
Some I could see, some Icouldn't see, and that kind of
(24:50):
those kind of I'll use the wordtragedy right, that kind of
tragedy.
I can put myself on a ladderaround that too.
Ebony Gilbert (25:01):
Yes.
Carri Richard (25:02):
Like, if I hold on to that tragedy and decide
that that entitles me to graceor entitles me for people to be
really nice to me because I'vehad a tough time, then that
actually blocks the grace I'mreally desiring.
Ebony Gilbert (25:24):
Yes.
Carri Richard (25:26):
And it's getting back up off that ladder right.
Wait a second.
Other people have tragedy too.
Ebony Gilbert (25:33):
Correct.
Carri Richard (25:34):
It doesn't negate the tragedy, it doesn't negate
the feelings, but it does notgive me like extra tickets in my
pocket for grace.
Ebony Gilbert (25:49):
Oh, good, tell, Do, tell Well shortly after my
stomach removal I'd been out ofcommission for several months I
entered this contest that I wasasked to enter.
I didn't go looking for it.
This is an important part ofthe story.
Okay, i was asked to enter thiscontest The contest that it was
called healthcare champion Andyou have to tell this story
(26:14):
about this forum, tell yourstory about a recent healthcare
challenge and how you overcameit.
And I thought surely no one'sgot anything better than this.
I am winning this, i am goingon this trip And you asked me to
do this and you're part of thejudgment committee.
Surely, this is in the bag,because who else, who, Yeah?
(26:45):
else has it this bad?
Carri Richard (26:49):
Where was the trip?
to Just sidebar?
Ebony Gilbert (26:52):
Oh, anywhere.
you want to go Up to $10,000for a week.
Carri Richard (26:55):
Oh, that's lovely .
Ebony Gilbert (26:56):
Yeah, we will go.
Carri Richard (26:57):
Continue.
Ebony Gilbert (26:59):
Yeah, yeah, i need this.
God knows I deserve this.
I've been locked in the housefor months.
I've taught myself to do allthese things again.
My story's very public.
I'm going to win.
Well, not only did I not win, Ididn't come in come second,
(27:20):
third or fourth place, therewasn't even honorable mention.
Carri Richard (27:28):
You were nowhere to be found, nowhere.
Ebony Gilbert (27:32):
And for several weeks I was pretty bitter and
angry.
Matter of fact, i was soindignant that I refused to even
read the stories of the peoplewho won.
(I totally get that!) "Ican't support this.
I could laugh about it now.
(27:57):
And so no lie, the so the girlwas hot, Okay?
When I finally did read thosestories, it became very clear to
me why those people won.
Oh, it was so obvious And Ifelt this big.
Carri Richard (28:15):
So what did you see when you were ready to see?
Ebony Gilbert (28:21):
I saw that.
what a couple of things.
I crafted a very well writtenstory And in my mind that should
have gotten me some points Okay.
Carri Richard (28:32):
Yeah.
Ebony Gilbert (28:32):
This thing is beautiful.
It's got all the SAT words.
I'm evoking emotion.
I've checked all the boxes forgood storytelling.
I have a ramp up in a companyYou know, it ends well.
It's got an arc, oh yes, and thearc is perfect And it's a
compelling story.
You know, I was mistreated.
(28:53):
It has trauma, it has tragedy,it has recovery, it has
resilience.
It's got all the things.
When I read these stories thatwon.
I read about people andfamilies And I read about crisis
.
I didn't read a.
(29:13):
Mine could have read as afictional book, a bestseller
fictional book, you know, verywell written book.
But when I read their stories,they touched my heart And I was
drawn into who these people wereAnd I wanted to reach out to
them and say, hey, let's chat.
How can we help each other?
It was a totally differentthing.
(29:34):
And then I went back and readmy own story.
I thought this is good.
I should sell this to somebody.
It isn't even.
It's a good story, but theseare people's lives who need a
trip.
They need a break.
I would like it.
It'd be cool.
You know, and before I allowedmyself to see those stories for
(30:01):
what they were and to take agood look at myself and what I
was doing, i couldn't see it andyou wouldn't have been able to
convince me otherwise.
Okay, yeah, these people hadchallenges.
It brought all my own crap intoperspective, Carri, and it
humbled me Like, okay, i had itbad, but not that bad.
Carri Richard (30:26):
There's grace in that.
Ebony Gilbert (30:29):
It sucked, but I was surrounded by family and
friends And there was a solutionAnd I could see clearly.
One of the stories.
the lady didn't even have useof a hand And in the story she
says my apologies for any errors, as this is being dictated by
my computer because I don't haveuse of my hands.
(30:51):
I want to get choked up And Ithought, oh my God, like I'm
sitting here complaining BecauseI didn't have.
I didn't win a contest forsomething I took less than 20
minutes to type up off the sideof my desk And it messed me up.
It messed me up And it took meoff that ladder.
(31:14):
The ladder went away And itchanged the way I framed the
story about my healthcarejourney completely And it put me
in a space of gratitude andgrace and nobody owes me
anything.
The world didn't make me anypromises.
I mean it's.
(31:35):
I didn't think about the story.
We first started talking butwhoo, Absolutely changed the
things.
Carri Richard (31:43):
I love it.
That's such a beautiful exampleAnd I appreciate your realness
about your bitterness and I wasmad At the time And and I'm And
just the realness I was real mad.
You reminded me.
you know you had that period oftime where you're like I'm not
even reading.
(32:04):
these stories Are you kiddingme Like who decided this right,
This, this entitlement?
But sometimes it takes time.
It took time, Absolutely.
Ebony Gilbert (32:20):
It took time.
Carri Richard (32:21):
And grace And I got curious, yeah, yeah.
And that's like all you need.
All you need is a crack.
just a little bit crack thedoor open, and grace is very
patient, always waiting.
Ebony Gilbert (32:40):
And it showed up.
But I had to step off theladder.
Carri Richard (32:46):
Yeah, and you got more than you probably
bargained for.
Ebony Gilbert (32:51):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
That was a good loss.
Carri Richard (32:56):
Yeah.
Ebony Gilbert (32:57):
Did me some good.
Carri Richard (32:59):
I love that.
Ebony Gilbert (33:00):
It's a little embarrassing, you know, in
hindsight, but it worked out inthe end for me.
I just knew I had it.
Carri Richard (33:16):
I think we've done a good workout on how to
block grace today.
How do you feel?
Ebony Gilbert (33:22):
Yeah, i think we have.
I think we have And you knowwe've touched on so many things
in the past few minutes of howto block grace come off the
ladder.
Entitlement judgment.
Carri Richard (33:44):
absolutely, absolutely, and as you listen,
you know, as you, you, you canfeel, hopefully people can
relate to what it feels like tobe on that ladder Cause then,
when we know, when we're awarewe're on the ladder, there's
hopefully new choices.
Ebony Gilbert (34:03):
Yeah, absolutely The irony.
in In.
closing, when take yourself offthat ladder, .
This view you are above theworld.
Take yourself off of thatladder and you ground yourself,
place your feet on the groundand get humble.
Your vision actually getsbetter.
Carri Richard (34:22):
Yes.
Ebony Gilbert (34:23):
Your vantage point is so much better.
You can see the grace, you canreceive the grace.
It can flow through you, it canflow to you from you.
So your perspective, yourvantage point, is better on the
ground, get off the ladder, andthat speaks to me, that's for me
.
Carri Richard (34:44):
I love it, me too .
Ebony Gilbert (34:47):
Yeah.
Carri Richard (34:49):
Thank you, awesome Thank you.
Thank you, i think we, i thinkI love.
Ebony Gilbert (34:54):
As always, you wrap it up wonderfully and You
started this off when you'revulnerable space and I said, hey
, she can do it, i can do it.
Carri Richard (35:04):
We did it We did it Awesome, awesome.
Well, it's been wonderful.
And again, anybody has aquestion or a topic or anything
about grace, let us know.
Ebony Gilbert (35:18):
So indeed, until time, until next time
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you enjoyed this episode,please let us know.
We love to hear from you andshare it with a friend.
Also, please be sure tosubscribe so you're notified
when a new episode is posted.
We hope you're leaving withanother pointer to grace, a new
perspective that will light itup in your own life.
Until next time, be well, bebold, be kind to yourself and be
(35:48):
on the lookout.
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