July 25, 2023 • 56 mins
What does graceful justice look like? Ready to challenge the preconceived notions of you may have about justice? Brace yourselves for a transformative conversation with Lou Freyer, a retired psychologist and school counselor, currently associated with the Virginia Center for Restorative Justice. Together, we debunk traditional concepts of justice and explore the powerful potential of restorative justice. This beautiful, graceful approach, centered around responsibility, repair, and reconnection, aims not to punish the offender but to rebuild the community and reintegrate those who have faltered.
More than just a theory, we bring restorative justice to life through real case studies. Join us as we dissect everything from felony assault cases to tragic hazing incidents, all handled through the lens of restorative justice. Not only do we bust the myth of restorative justice being the 'easy way out,' we'll discuss how it promotes healing and growth for both the individual and the community. Lou's experience lends us a clear vision of restorative justice in action, unraveling its transformative power and the profound impact it leaves behind.
We also examine how restorative practices can create harmonious dynamics in all environments, including homes to schools. Learn to invite the tools of restorative justice into your own life, such as active listening and asking for specific change requests, with Lou guiding us through. Understand how you can become a part of this empathetic approach to justice and be the change in your community. So, are you ready to embrace a more compassionate justice system that focuses on grace over punishment? Tune in for an enlightening conversation that can forever shift your perspective on crime, punishment, and redemption.
Documentary Adam Oaks Story - https://youtu.be/iFTWUnfEy6w
Links about Restorative Justice:
and the "Center for Justice & Peacebuilding" at emu.edu
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Grace Among Us, the podcast where we
unearth the many faces andplaces of grace and share
stories of the power of grace inour human lives.
Our desire is that this willinspire you to see grace in your
own life and share it withothers.
Carri Richard (00:22):
Hello, hello everybody, welcome.
My name is Carri Richard.
I'm a mindset coach and I amdoing one of my most, very
favorite things is to talk withmy dear friend, Ebony Gilbert,
about the subject of grace, andtoday we have an amazing,
amazing guest that I can't waitfor you to hear.
(00:45):
So, Ebony.
Ebony Gilbert (00:48):
Good day, good people.
My name is Ebony Gilbert and Iget to hang out with Carri, and
today I get to hang out with MrLou.
Carri and I get togetherperiodically to have these
podcasts and we thought it wouldbe amazing if you guys could
hear from a dear friend of oursabout something very cool and
neat he's doing in his sparetime.
(01:09):
So, Lou, to you, tell us whoyou are and help folks
understand why we're so excitedto have you today.
Lou Freyer (01:16):
Okay, well, glad to be here, thrilled to be here.
You know my name is Lou Freyer.
I am a retired psychologist andcounselor and I moved to
Virginia here in Virginia about10 years ago and was looking for
volunteer service work to doand came across the Virginia
(01:41):
Center for Restorative Justiceand it was like, oh boy, that
was like one of my favoritethings in my job that I did.
I was originally trained inrestorative justice in 1997.
So lots of experience of usingit in school systems and since
(02:02):
I've been here, you know, moreopportunities to work in
criminal justice and the prisonsystem here in Virginia.
So I'll tell you a little bitabout the Virginia Center for
Restorative Justice.
You know it's a faith-basedvolunteer organization.
Everybody that works with usand it's a crew of about 60, I'm
(02:27):
going to say, very dedicatedvolunteers who give their time
and energy just because they'repassionate about social justice,
restorative justice, creatingequity in our justice and
educational systems.
And it's just been a delightfor me to work with it.
(02:50):
So I'll just go ahead and jumpin and say well, what do I mean
when I say restorative justice?
And it's, it is anon-traditional approach to
finding justice when harm hasbeen done in a situation.
It comes out of actuallyindigenous societies all around
(03:17):
the world.
It was brought, well re-brought, here to the United States in
the late 70s and really took offin the mid-90s.
And I say re-brought herebecause it was the form of
justice that was practiced bythe indigenous nations in North
(03:41):
America.
And the other place that it'sreally come from is in New
Zealand the Maori tribesmanthere.
So what is it basically?
The belief in those societiesis that when someone commits
what we would call a crime, itcaused harm in some way, that
(04:06):
the harm goes against the entirecommunity.
It's not just one person, itfractures their community and
their way of dealing with thatis to bring everyone in the
community together.
So the person who caused theharm, the person or people who
were harmed and the rest of thecommunity, their families and
(04:30):
everyone else and the person whocaused the harm takes
responsibility for what they'vedone.
They learn how they have harmedother people and listen to
that, with respect, and then asa community they come together
(04:54):
to repair the harm that's beendone and reintegrate that person
back into the community.
So the message there is you'rean important person to us,
you've made a mistake.
Here's how you make it right,and we want you back as one of
(05:18):
us.
You're important to us.
We love you.
Any of your listeners who arehistory nerds that love to do it
- the earliest recordedof this happening in the English
language in North America canbe found in what's called the
(05:41):
Great Treaty of 1722, where twoEnglish colonists murdered a
native man and it was bringingthem to the brink of warfare
with the Iroquois.
The five nations of theIroquois Confederacy.
(06:03):
And the colonists at that timecouldn't afford to have those
people at war with them.
It would have really been notgood.
And so they went to apply whatwe would consider our
traditional justice system,their English form of justice,
(06:25):
saying we're going to throwthese guys in prison, find them
guilty and execute them, andthat will appease the native
nations.
But the indigenous people saidno, no, no, wait, wait.
That's not how we do things.
We ask for a ceremony thatcloses, that recognizes the harm
(06:52):
that's been done.
We ask for reparations, andthose two guys are our trading
link to you.
They're very important to ourcommunity.
We want them back.
There's no point in two moredeaths and it's funny that
treaty is still on the books inthe United States.
(07:13):
It's one of the earliest, maybethe earliest foreign treaty,
but anyway, that's for thehistory nerds.
I'll move on.
So it's like one of the easiestways to understand it is to
compare it, contrast it, withour traditional forms of justice
(07:37):
.
And our traditional forms ofjustice ask these questions what
law has been broken?
Is this person guilty or notguilty of breaking that law?
And if they're guilty, what istheir punishment going to be?
(08:00):
How severe is it going to be?
In restorative justice, we askthree different questions what
happened?
And that includes what were youthinking when you did that?
What were you feeling?
Who do you think would beharmed by your actions?
(08:22):
How do you think they would beharmed?
And we answer the secondquestion is who's been harmed
and how?
And then the third question ishow do we repair the harm that's
been done?
How do we make it right?
They're very differentquestions.
Carri Richard (08:46):
Absolutely.
Lou Freyer (08:47):
And they come with very different results.
So here's where I see the tiein with grace, the connection
between grace and forgiveness,because every one of these
situations that I've beeninvolved in, and there's been
(09:09):
lots.
Forgiveness is what comes outof it and reconnection between
people.
And if that's not grace, Idon't know what is.
It's something that flowsthrough us.
Forgiveness, you know, we don't, it's something that comes
(09:31):
through us to another person andthat we receive from another
person.
And that's pretty much, I guess, my working definition of grace
.
You know, something that comesto us from beyond and that we
can channel to another.
So and one of the things Iguess this probably best can I
(09:54):
tell some stories?
Carri Richard (09:57):
Yes.
Lou Freyer (09:57):
Or do you have questions?
I think I saw questions in youreyes.
I know yeah.
Carri Richard (10:01):
So good.
Ebony Gilbert (10:02):
I think, you.
Carri Richard (10:03):
I think you read me well, so it's a beautiful
definition and a beautifulpicture.
You've painted such a clearpicture of the difference
between the traditional justicesystem that we have in the
United States today that is likeone of separation it's almost
like you did this thing and nowyou're out and this restorative
(10:28):
justice where it's like, no,you're not out, and actually we
want you in, so let's see how wecan invite you back in, which
is, I mean, everybody, everybodyneeds that message.
Lou Freyer (10:42):
I I yeah.
Carri Richard (10:45):
And I think we had talked about this before and
this was a powerful statementyou made, so I just want to say
it.
You talk about this process.
Tell me if I say it right.
It removes the deed from thedoer.
Lou Freyer (11:02):
Right, yes, exactly right.
Carri Richard (11:05):
And it's yeah, so .
So grace is like I'm a lovedhuman being, right?
Grace tells me that I am alwaysloved, and it's as you speak
about this, it's that reflectionof, hey, wait a second, the
deed you did was no bueno, notokay, but you're still, let's
(11:31):
figure out how to you knowthere's still love for you here.
Lou Freyer (11:36):
Right, yeah, it's.
Yeah, those are very importantpoints.
It is about bringing peopleback to community, whereas so
much of our not only criminaljustice but discipline systems
say in school, what happens whenyou get in trouble on school?
(11:56):
You get suspended.
Well, you go to the principal'soffice and and the ultimate
thing would be suspension orexpulsion You're picked out.
Carri Richard (12:07):
Yeah.
Lou Freyer (12:10):
And and I'm going to come back to that because we're
doing some work with schoolsright now but you know, or in
the criminal justice systemyou're sent away, you know
you're incarcerated, and in bothof those cases, when the person
(12:31):
returns from that thatsituation it's just like you're
back.
There's no reintegration to thecommunity.
So, like when I'm doingtrainings for people you know
groups that use this I say tothem to imagine the very worst
(12:56):
thing that you've ever done inyour life, the very worst thing
that I've ever done, and thenimagine that printed on a
t-shirt that you have to weareverywhere you go.
And that's what happens oftenin our traditional justices.
(13:16):
You know X, common thief,addict, bad kid, whatever goes
on there.
And so I gave it.
I gave it a piece for anyhistory nerds in your audience.
Here's a piece for, like anytheory nerds in your audience.
Okay, Okay.
(13:37):
The foundation, thepsychological foundation for why
this works, is something calledreintegrative shame.
Okay, and we tend to think ofshame as a bad thing, right, but
it's like probably the firstemotion we ever feel.
(13:59):
We feel it like this as littlekids Uh-oh, I did something
wrong, right.
And in restorative justicepractices, reintegrative shame
(14:20):
is what we're looking for in theprocess.
In traditional justice, thereis stigmatizing shame applied.
In other words, the personmight feel like I've done
something wrong, but they'regiven no way out, they're given
(14:44):
no way to correct it, they'regiven no way to come back into
the community.
Ebony Gilbert (14:50):
Would reintegrative shame be similar
to remorse?
Lou Freyer (14:55):
Yes, okay, yes, yeah , it's that.
And let me take you through theprocess.
For example, sure, an example.
I use a criminal justice andI'm going to kind of like,
because of the confidentialityand all this, I'm just going to
like mesh together a bunch ofsituations.
(15:17):
But, um, so you know, imagine aperson, hard-of- hearing,
coming off a long day of workand going to McDonald's, to the
(15:37):
drive-up window and ordering awhopper.
And the person in the drive-inwindow says "we don't sell
whoppers, but I want to walk.
Now they're in an argument.
By the time that that unfoldsand the manager gets involved,
(15:59):
there is soda being thrown atpeople.
This one situation was in themidst, the height of the
pandemic, when nobody knew whatwas going on and one person took
the gum out of their mouth andthrew it in the face of the
other person.
Police were called.
Police came and do what they do.
(16:21):
They listened, they figured,have to arrest somebody.
So somebody gets the personthat drove up gets arrested,
charged with assault.
Okay, here's what would happenin traditional justice.
That case would go to court.
(16:41):
It would all of a sudden becomenot a conflict between two
people.
It becomes like if I assaultsomebody and I go to court.
How do they define that?
The state of Virginia againstLou Freyer, right, yeah, and it
(17:07):
takes a conflict and builds itinto a bigger conflict.
Win and lose situation.
I'm now not the people thatdon't have a voice in that or
the people who are involved it'sanother conflict that's created
.
It's a win- lose situation, youknow, and it's.
(17:28):
Y know who wins and loses?
The lawyers.
"Got them off or, you know, gotthe maximum sentence".
So, if it's a maximum, if it'sa sentence thing, then that
person is removed from thecommunity.
(17:51):
So in this case and here'ssomething that's very exciting
you're in Virginia we wereapproached by the commonwealth
attorney's office, starting inRichmond and then Henrico County
and now here at Williamsburgand James City County.
Those are the prosecutors,right?
They called us up and said, "weneed something else.
(18:14):
We can't just keep sendingpeople to prison.
And they have been verysupportive in sending us
referrals, working with us.
I mean, it's kind of that'sgrace right there.
You would think the defenseside would be saying hey, you
(18:40):
know, I was blown away the firsttime I had that conversation.
So in this particular case theywent to the preliminary hearing.
The commonwealth.
The prosecutor pulls thedefense attorney aside and says,
"you know we have this otherprocess we could try.
Let's see if the judge willcontinue the case for 90 days.
(19:05):
Give us time to do this and seehow it works.
Okay, so the judge agreed, wegot the case and this is how it
goes.
You have pre-conferencemeetings with each side and
everyone involved.
Explain very carefully what theprocess is like.
(19:27):
You read, you know you workthrough with people Like the
person has to be able to admityes, I did that.
They have to be able to say yes, I did that.
Ebony Gilbert (19:44):
Can I pause for one second?
That is so good.
I had written that down for myquestion, because grace is
available to everyone, but youhave to receive it.
You have to receive it.
Lou Freyer (19:53):
Right, exactly.
Ebony Gilbert (19:54):
There's a step you have to take to access it
right?
It kind of triggered me and Igot excited on the inside.
But that right there, thatpiece is so critical.
Lou Freyer (20:05):
It's so important and in working with the legal
system, we have a very clearlydefined of.
Whatever happens in our processis confidential, so the person
is not saying I'm guilty ofcommitting a crime.
And back to what you said,Carri, "I did this, you know.
(20:27):
Yeah, I threw my gum in thatguy's face.
I did that.
And in working with themthrough the questions who do you
think was harmed?
How do you think they wereharmed?
You know what were you thinkingat the time?
What were you feeling?
I was just angry.
(20:47):
You know, I was just angry.
And it's like to help themunderstand.
We're going to talk about oneincident that happened on one
day at one time.
Period.
We're not here to talk aboutyou as a person.
Carri Richard (21:10):
It's huge.
Lou Freyer (21:12):
It's huge.
So if you have that on the onthe responsible party's side and
then you meet with theso-called victims, you know the
harmed party and they are opento sharing what it was like for
them and listening.
And having their questions thatthey want to ask.
(21:35):
You do all that work ahead oftime.
You meet with their supporters,their families and community
members who will all be part ofsitting in a circle together to
work this through.
Parentheses, it's not a panacea, it's not for everything.
You know, sometimes we get areferral and you sit down with
(22:00):
the offender in a criminaljustice system and they'll they
can't get past it.
Yeah, but he.
But yeah, but I didn't, but itwas yeah, but it's like well,
all right, then you need to gotry and convince the judge of
that.
This is not going to work foryou.
Or if there's the possibilityof revictimization of the harmed
(22:22):
party, that's not going to workfor them.
So after you do all that work,then you get together as a
circle and you go around and youstart with the person that did
the harm.
You say what did you do?
What were you thinking?
Who do you think was harmed andhow?
(22:43):
And usually that's prettysurface.
You know.
I remember a kid was walkingdown the street, saw a bicycle.
Said, " a nice bicycle hoppedon the bicycle road away, got
caught four blacks down thestreet and you know when we got
(23:05):
sent to a person it got sent tous and it was like who do you
think was harmed?
"Well, I don't know who you know.
So it was somebody's bike, Iguess.
Well, turns out it was the doordash guy's bike.
It was his living Right.
But he didn't, you know, hedidn't know that at the time.
(23:27):
It's like, yeah, that'd befunny bicycle.
I went for ride on the bicycle.
Especially young people arelike that.
You know a lot of school things.
Why?
Why did you do that?
We thought it would be fun.
And then everybody else in theroom gets to talk about how they
were affected.
(23:47):
The person who was directlyaffected you know, the girl in
the drive-in window, the managerthat got into the fight at the
drive-in window, the person youknow who was charged with
assault their family memberswhat would it was like to get
that phone call come get themfrom jail.
(24:09):
You know this person wasworking in a field where they
had to have a background check.
If they were convicted of acrime they would not be able to
continue their career.
So how's that going to affecttheir family and the person?
(24:30):
It's a very specific set ofquestions, a very specific
process and a very respectfulprocess.
Ebony Gilbert (24:40):
Can I ask a question?
Lou Freyer (24:41):
Yes.
Ebony Gilbert (24:43):
So and I'm just going to play a little bit of
Devil's advocate here, go for it.
I love it.
We're feeling what you'resaying, but for the listeners
this sounds very warm and fuzzyand feel- goody.
How do you couple the feel-good, it sounds good, it's a
great pitch with, "his holdspeople accountable and they're
not going to go do it again.
Lou Freyer (25:04):
That's where - I'm glad you asked that question.
I was just getting there.
Oh, that's where the yeah wherethe reintegrate of shame piece
comes.
Ebony Gilbert (25:12):
Okay, okay.
Lou Freyer (25:13):
Okay, as the person who's the offending party, is
sitting there looking in the eyeof the person they've harmed
and hearing from them how theywere harmed, and it gets very
emotional.
(Ebony - I imagine.
(25:35):
People get angry, they cry.
They, you know, and you willphysically.
I know it's working because Ialways have that person sitting
next to me when I'm facilitating.
I know this is working.
When I start to see themgetting smaller in their chair,
they're starting to, you know.
They might have said I thoughtyou know it was funny, it was
(25:58):
like so what?
bicycle?
And when they start to collapseand feel it and cry themselves,
okay, you know, that's thepiece that's going to have them
not do it again.
Yeah, if you, if you're, if yougo to court and you get sent to
(26:22):
prison, you're going to be madat the judge and the system and
the whoever, okay.
But when you have to looksomeone in the eye and listen,
without coming back at them,without you know explaining
yourself, without defendingyourself, and feel it - O ne of
(26:49):
the myths around restorativejustice is that it lets people
off easy.
Ebony Gilbert (26:55):
That's what I was getting at.
Lou Freyer (26:57):
Yeah, it's much harder.
It's much harder because theydo feel it and that's, that's
the shame piece.
The redintegrative piece comesnext, where everybody gets a
chance to say the question thereis what do you need?
(27:19):
What do you need now?
What do you need now, what doyou need now?
All around the circle, and weclose the, we close the process,
coming out of it with anagreement that everyone signs.
(27:40):
Often - now, in this case, withthe one I'm going to come
mishmashing together, in caseslike it, all the people wanted
was a sincere, heartfelt apology, and that came.
That came with tears, in truefeeling.
(28:03):
Okay, and, and this happens,that this is part of the magic,
the grace, if you want to callit that happens in this process
that, like the manager in thatparticular case said and I'm
sorry, because I need to trainmy staff better on what to do
(28:28):
with people who are hard- of-hearing at the drive- in window,
I can't hear the drive inwindow myself, but imagine and,
that manager began to cry andsaid, "I said to the judge at
(28:51):
the hearing this is all weneeded was to talk to each other
.
I didn't want this person to bepunished, and they walked out
of that room hand in hand,laughing, after giving each
other a hug.
I had one.
(29:14):
This is going to be a mishmashtoo - where the a person was
charged with felony assault onthe police office.
You know where that will go forthem.
Carri Richard (29:31):
That's, that's a big ticket item.
Lou Freyer (29:33):
That's a big ticket item.
First offense in the midst of ablackout, drinking thing, and
the prosecuting attorney saidthere's going to be nothing
served here sending this youngwoman to jail.
Yeah, so we did do all the prepwork.
The assaulted officer, who wasput out of work for a week, came
(29:58):
in kind of like armed for youknow, ready to do this, willing
to do it, and by the time we gotdone, and again, there are
people from the larger communitythere.
That's we always invite peoplefrom like the larger community,
(30:20):
and that's that also helps withthat shaming part.
You have to say what you did infront of a whole pile of people
.
Carri Richard (30:26):
Can you give an example.
I know you can't be specific,but when you say larger
community, is it family members?
Is it people they don't know?
Lou Freyer (30:35):
It's all of that, and people that they don't know.
So we have volunteers who, likeyou say, the safety in my
neighborhood is important to me,you know, and when you broke
into this person's house andburglarized it, it destroys the
safety I feel in my community.
(30:56):
Or people will say you know,"we just want you to turn this
around and not do it again,particularly with in
neighborhoods and people ofcolor, because it's like don't
(31:16):
reinforce the image that peoplehave of my neighborhood.
You're better than that, we'rebetter than that, so you know.
So we do, we do an agreement,what do you need?
What do you need?
What do you need, what do youneed and what the person can
agree to do as a result, and alot of stuff comes out of that -
(31:40):
community service, financialrestitution, and the person
agrees to do what they need todo to repair the harm.
Carri Richard (31:54):
So so what happened with this woman who was
up for felony assault?
Lou Freyer (32:05):
Well, I'll tell you what happened in this part of
the process.
Okay, at the very end thepolice officer went over and
said here's my personal cellphone number, call me anytime
you need help.
And the police officer wasthrilled because they never get
(32:32):
to do that, they never get tosee a positive outcome, and you
know I'm dealing withconfidentiality.
But let me say, it ended up,went back to court with our
report.
We write a report, then thatgoes back to the judge which
(32:56):
says, yeah, here was theagreement and we monitored and
the person fulfilled their sideof the agreement.
They did whatever was requestedof them In that case that was a
period of probation and theperson continued to do well
(33:19):
after the probation, all chargeswould be dropped.
That's a lot different than youknow, three to five in the state
penitentiary or whatever itwould be.
So that's another one, and thisI don't have to be confidential
(33:41):
about because people have beenvery, very public about it there
was a student at VCU inRichmond who died as a result of
a hazing incident.
You know he was part of joiningthe fraternity.
He was, you know, encouraged,almost forced to drink not just
(34:05):
a fifth of a whole handle ofJack Daniels in a gulp and died
and his fraternity sponsor andthe president of the fraternity
thought he was just sleepingright.
They didn't do anything.
(34:26):
So they were charged and went tocourt, pled guilty and the
family of the boy who died said,"well we want to have
restorative justice as part oftheir sentence.
And so we held thoseconferences where that family
(34:52):
got to let them know.
Those boys know what it waslike for them.
There were also consequences tothem.
You know they were dismissedfrom the university and so on.
But part of the agreement wasthat they go with the family of
(35:13):
the young man who died to speakto other universities and
fraternities and tell abouttheir experience together.
And even after I think it waslike five times or something
like that they continue to do it.
If you look, there's adocumentary it's called the Adam
(35:38):
Oaks Case, where these peopleare still going around the
country talking to otherstudents and I was just with
them back in May and they'revery close with each other the
(36:02):
young men and mom and dad and acousin of the young man that
died.
Carri Richard (36:15):
So this go ahead Well.
Lou Freyer (36:19):
I was just going to say and just working with some
schools recently in doingre-entry conferencing when
students come back fromsuspension or incarceration,
like sitting in a circle andmaking an agreement of what
they're going to do and thesupports that are going to be
(36:42):
given to them in bringing themback into the school.
Rather than just like oh, yoursuspension's over, go back to
class now.
And forgetting what thatstudent does when they walk back
into classroom - what theyexperience.
Carri Richard (37:02):
So what I'm hearing is that they've gone
through the traditional method,of punishment but you're picking
them back up on the way back in.
Lou Freyer (37:12):
Yeah, I think about when.
I was just what was it?
Tuesday doing training withsome of these school people and
I said you know, think aboutbeing a parent in school.
There's that legal phrase inloco parentis, right, when you
have the kids in school, you'retheir parent and it's like, but
(37:32):
think about being a parent.
Sometimes you send your kid totime- out, you know, but when
they come back out, you helpthem learn ways to not do
whatever sent them there.
You hug them, you tell them youlove them and you go on and
have a life.
A nd that's grace too - thelove that goes there.
(37:58):
So in restorative practiceswe're looking at having high
expectations for people, highrequirements for behavior and a
high level of support.
And our traditional justicesystem says you know "you broke
(38:23):
a law.
Here's what we're going to doto you and what we work towards
is "you made a mistake.
Here's what we're going to dowith you, together to get over
it.
And magic happens.
I could sit here and tell10,000 stories.
(38:44):
I mean really.
Carri Richard (38:47):
Yeah, I mean it's I want to use the M word - it's
miraculous.
And yeah, if it from a contrastperspective, like if you look
at you know, when you go to jail, you do your, you do your
punishment and then you're free.
You're free and, by the way,people are going to know what
(39:10):
you did and we're not going totalk about it and you're going
to have to figure out how tobring yourself back into the
fold.
And then there's this piecewhere there's probably healing
that's going on that actuallyhad nothing to even do with the
incident, because you know, thiscommunity that's coming
together for the welfare of theentire community.
Lou Freyer (39:34):
Yes, of every one.
And and and like to go back toyour question, Ebony, about,
like, it sounds soft, but it'sthe only way to get people to
change, because they have totake responsibility for what
they do.
I'll tell one more story.
(39:56):
It's got nothing to do withrestorative justice, but it sort
of put me on the path.
And I was working time ago, inlike mid 70s, you know, I was
working as a counselor in anelementary school and making no
money.
So I had a second job at nightin the county prison, right,
(40:22):
working with the prisoners.
And there was no difference.
If I had to deal with two firstgraders that got in trouble
because they were fighting orwhatever, their first response
was yeah, but he, he, he.
And when I would talk with theprisoners in the prison, what
(40:49):
are you doing here?
Oh, that judge doesn't like me.
You know, my friend talked meinto it.
You know that person shouldn'thave been there.
Ebony Gilbert (41:00):
No personal accountability.
Lou Freyer (41:02):
Yeah, nothing, and so there's gonna be no, no
reason to change, especially ifyou walk out with the shirt on
of shame and it just fuels youranger.
So I, I Think that, I think -do you have other questions?
(41:29):
I can kind of pause there ortell more stories.
I have no idea what our time islike here.
Carri Richard (41:38):
It's whatever we want it to be.
I think - yeah, I do have aquestion.
So, as you said, it's a veryspecific process and you - you
meet with the, the Person whodid the deed, and you meet with
(41:59):
the people who were - the personor people who were affected by
it, and then you bring thecommunity together and you have
this specific process andeverybody understands the
process before you get there,all these things.
So it's very structured andit's such a - If you were to and
(42:21):
I don't know if you can, howcan you how could you bring this
into your own home?
Lou Freyer (42:32):
Yes, it's basic listening.
Okay, that's the thing there's,there's power, there's healing,
and listening to someone'sstory with respect and Making
them feel heard Okay, that'swhat would like.
Crime victims really get out ofthis A lot of it.
(42:53):
They have questions.
You know, why did you breakinto my house?
What is it about me that mademe a target?
Most times it's got nothing todo with it, you know.
But there's there's healing inlistening to the stories and -
(43:16):
Remember how part of the, therestorative process, is asked
for what you need.
What do you need?
What do you need?
What do you need?
That is the question To be ableto ask and listen to very
carefully in this situation.
So and I was taught long agosomething that's called specific
(43:40):
change request- Mm-hmm.
Okay, a process.
It's kind of like you need tounderstand, like it, when I'm
doing something over and overthat's annoying, like maybe the
person I live with - you know.
Then it's for either me to goto her or her to come to me and
(44:08):
say, look, we keep fighting overthe same thing, okay, so what
do I need to know?
First of all, why is it soimportant to you?
There's a story behind that,right?
There's a reason behind it.
(44:30):
I need to listen and understandthat.
To see how my behavior isreally affecting another person
and why - that's restorativejustice, right.
And then it's asking, what doyou need from me to make it
(44:51):
right now.
In our homes, usually, whatcomes out is is like a huge
universal request, "I want youto never, ever".
(45:12):
Or always do this.
right yet, and you know,that's where you have to listen
to the other person, and this ispart of the restorative justice
process too.
When we come up with theagreement, what do you need?
What do you need?
The other question is to theperson who is you know the
(45:36):
caused the harm.
Can you do that?
Carri Richard (45:40):
mmmm.
Lou Freyer (45:41):
Can you promise to do that?
And if there's going to be aproblem with you doing that, we
need to negotiate.
Okay, so like for financialrestitution - if it's a 14 year
old kid, you know, and you don'twant the parents paying that
(46:02):
money.
Carri Richard (46:04):
It's not gonna help.
Lou Freyer (46:06):
Yeah, so you know, we talked about community
members.
We have a lady in Richmond whoowns five McDonald's franchises,
and and she'll come sometimesbe a community participant
because that's where herrestaurants are in those
neighborhoods.
And she'll say, you know, ifshe listens and she's seeing
(46:28):
true remorse and all that andthere needs to be financial
restitution made.
She'll say, " I'll give you ajob, one my restaurants, but
your entire paychecks going tothat and and if it works out,
you have a job".
So but they're like gettingback to home, it's like you know
(46:53):
.
So it's like, well, I can'tpromise that always, ever, never
stuff, but what's one thing Ican do that will show you.
But I've heard you and it'simportant to me", and And then
(47:13):
when you get to that, then Ineed to be really, really
focused on doing what I promisedI would do - that one thing,
and it can build from there.
So does that answer yourquestion?
Carri Richard (47:34):
Absolutely, there's so much good stuff in
there and it's that - I t's aframework of listening and then
also being heard and saying,okay, I hear you and and I'm
gonna - I love that specific -here's the one thing I can do to
show you, because I don't knowthat I ever had that tool
(47:58):
without somebody teaching methat, right?
It was like, "well, you'repissing me off, so you need to
change everything.
Lou Freyer (48:09):
Yeah, all the time.
yeah, right.
Carri Richard (48:10):
I'll do that and then it's more the focus of how
you're failing at not being ableto change everything.
Lou Freyer (48:18):
Yeah right.
Yeah yeah, and here's the thingtoo.
I'll use an example from frommy life.
You know, we used to often getinto like arguments in the car
If I was driving, because belike, do you see that?
(48:41):
And then I'd get mad.
Of course, I see that, whatever.
So we had that conversationright and, and it's like what,
you know what is this about?
And then listening to the storyof my wife being in a car with
(49:02):
her six brothers and sister andmom and her father driving drunk
and feeling trapped in the backseat, and it's like, oh, that's
who I have in the car with me,you know.
So what can I do?
"Well, I want you to always payattention, and never did that,
(49:25):
you know.
It's like well, where, here'swhere we landed, "when the
light turns green, go.
And you know what?
I was one of those guys thatwould be looking around and the
(49:47):
light would turn green and Iwouldn't go to somebody behind
me blew their horn.
Ebony Gilbert (49:54):
Right, we have a podcast on that, we do.
Carri Richard (49:59):
We do.
Ebony Gilbert (49:59):
We talked about that we really do, the person
who does not go when the lightturns green and how it makes us
feel yes.
Lou Freyer (50:07):
That was me.
You know I should look up thatpodcast, but you know what?
So that's the thing it's like.
"I hear you, it's important tome, I will do that.
Now it's important, I do that,right, and guess what happens?
Just like the person in therestorative conference who can
(50:32):
turn their life around withsupport and choices not to do
that, whatever that specificthing was.
Again - Guess who became abetter driver?
Carri Richard (50:48):
Mr.
Lou!
Lou Freyer (50:49):
Guess who no longer gets honked at?
Or as much anyway.
But you know, and it can buildfrom there.
I have learned to pay betterattention driving.
Carri Richard (51:07):
And it also it changes things from - I love
that example, and I am going tofigure out which podcast it was.
Lou Freyer (51:16):
Yeah, send it to me I will, but it switches that
from.
Carri Richard (51:20):
I have to do this because she's mad to I get to.
I get to pay attention at thelight because I know what an
impact it makes.
It's super empowering.
Lou Freyer (51:36):
Because I love you and grace is grace is love,
right.
Ebony Gilbert (51:42):
Yeah.
Lou Freyer (51:43):
That's another definition.
That's, that's the message ofrestorative justice in a
nutshell.
We love you, you know.
But if one of the people thatwork, that work with us, Dr.
Josh Bacon, has a book out.
It's a good one.
It's called, I screwed up nowwhat - it talks about this
(52:07):
process with young people.
Carri Richard (52:12):
Awesome, Lou, so much goodness.
I'm excited to hear it, tolisten to this again because I
know I'm going to pick up stuff.
It is such a gift to have youhere.
Ebony, you are the master atclosing us out, and bringing it
(52:32):
all together.
So I'm putting you on the spot.
Ebony Gilbert (52:36):
I don't know if I'm going to do it justice.
You get it?
Oh, there we go.
Probably failed with thatcomment, but I'm going to give
it a shot.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
This was so jam packed full ofgood nuggets and good takeaways.
A couple of things that really,really resonated with me,
totally resonated with me.
(52:56):
Sometimes the grace of God canfeel like we're getting a pass,
and we're hesitant to offer thatgrace to other people.
I feel like we're letting themgo, get away with something.
That's not the principle.
It's rooted in love.
The reintegrate of shame.
We have to redefine how wethink of shame.
(53:17):
Shame is acknowledging that youdid something that wasn't the
most decent thing in the worldand we're going to turn from
that and do something differentthe next time.
So redefining shame whetherit's shame for something you,
some crime you committed againstsomeone else or something that
you're just embarrassed aboutthat doesn't make you feel good
and doesn't represent yourfamily values.
Redefine that and use it to thebenefit and the building up how
(53:39):
you can be better the next time.
Grace - that restorative justiceis not absolved.
You have accountability.
There still may be someconsequences.
It just packs love and grace ontop of it so that you don't
have to walk around with thex-con t-shirt on all the time.
There's healing in that,there's restoration in that, and
(54:00):
when it comes to us, then itcan flow through us.
So it's important that we'reable to receive it so that we
can pass it on to others.
And I have a page full of notesand I'll stop there because I
don't want too get lengthy.
There was so much in it.
I need to listen to it againand carry.
I don't know, maybe we can havea part two where we kind of
just piggyback off of this andwe talk about all the lessons
(54:22):
that came out of it.
Carri Richard (54:23):
Absolutely, absolutely, and we might bring
you back on in it, Lou.
Lou Freyer (54:28):
Yeah, absolutely, I can talk 10 hours.
We've only done one and I wasgoing to say too I don't know if
you like I have some websiteswhere people are interested in
learning more which I can sendto you.
(54:48):
Karen, I don't know if you canattach to the information piece
of your podcast.
Carri Richard (54:53):
Yeah, absolutely, and for anybody out there who
has questions about this,because there was so much,
please put them in the comments,let us know and we'd be happy
to follow up.
Lou Freyer (55:05):
So Lou, thank you so much.
Yeah, exactly.
Carri Richard (55:08):
Well, thank you for the opportunity.
And thank you for the work thatyou do in this world.
It's really it's beautiful,yeah, so.
Lou Freyer (55:16):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Carri Richard (55:18):
This was rich.
Lou Freyer (55:19):
Great, this was Glad to be here.
Awesome.
Well, thank you all.
Carri Richard (55:26):
We'll see you.
Thank you, Ebony, and Grace out, grace out, grace out, thank
you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know.
We love to hear from you andshare it with a friend.
Also, please be sure tosubscribe so you're notified
when a new episode is posted.
We hope you're leaving withanother pointer to grace, a new
perspective that will light itup in your own life.
Until next time, be well, bebold, be kind to yourself and be
(55:57):
on the lookout.
Welcome to Grace Among Us, the podcast where we
unearth the many faces andplaces of grace and share
stories of the power of grace inour human lives.
Our desire is that this willinspire you to see grace in your
own life and share it withothers.
Carri Richard (00:22):
Hello, hello everybody, welcome.
My name is Carri Richard.
I'm a mindset coach and I amdoing one of my most, very
favorite things is to talk withmy dear friend, Ebony Gilbert,
about the subject of grace, andtoday we have an amazing,
amazing guest that I can't waitfor you to hear.
(00:45):
So, Ebony.
Ebony Gilbert (00:48):
Good day, good people.
My name is Ebony Gilbert and Iget to hang out with Carri, and
today I get to hang out with MrLou.
Carri and I get togetherperiodically to have these
podcasts and we thought it wouldbe amazing if you guys could
hear from a dear friend of oursabout something very cool and
neat he's doing in his sparetime.
(01:09):
So, Lou, to you, tell us whoyou are and help folks
understand why we're so excitedto have you today.
Lou Freyer (01:16):
Okay, well, glad to be here, thrilled to be here.
You know my name is Lou Freyer.
I am a retired psychologist andcounselor and I moved to
Virginia here in Virginia about10 years ago and was looking for
volunteer service work to doand came across the Virginia
(01:41):
Center for Restorative Justiceand it was like, oh boy, that
was like one of my favoritethings in my job that I did.
I was originally trained inrestorative justice in 1997.
So lots of experience of usingit in school systems and since
(02:02):
I've been here, you know, moreopportunities to work in
criminal justice and the prisonsystem here in Virginia.
So I'll tell you a little bitabout the Virginia Center for
Restorative Justice.
You know it's a faith-basedvolunteer organization.
Everybody that works with usand it's a crew of about 60, I'm
(02:27):
going to say, very dedicatedvolunteers who give their time
and energy just because they'repassionate about social justice,
restorative justice, creatingequity in our justice and
educational systems.
And it's just been a delightfor me to work with it.
(02:50):
So I'll just go ahead and jumpin and say well, what do I mean
when I say restorative justice?
And it's, it is anon-traditional approach to
finding justice when harm hasbeen done in a situation.
It comes out of actuallyindigenous societies all around
(03:17):
the world.
It was brought, well re-brought, here to the United States in
the late 70s and really took offin the mid-90s.
And I say re-brought herebecause it was the form of
justice that was practiced bythe indigenous nations in North
(03:41):
America.
And the other place that it'sreally come from is in New
Zealand the Maori tribesmanthere.
So what is it basically?
The belief in those societiesis that when someone commits
what we would call a crime, itcaused harm in some way, that
(04:06):
the harm goes against the entirecommunity.
It's not just one person, itfractures their community and
their way of dealing with thatis to bring everyone in the
community together.
So the person who caused theharm, the person or people who
were harmed and the rest of thecommunity, their families and
(04:30):
everyone else and the person whocaused the harm takes
responsibility for what they'vedone.
They learn how they have harmedother people and listen to
that, with respect, and then asa community they come together
(04:54):
to repair the harm that's beendone and reintegrate that person
back into the community.
So the message there is you'rean important person to us,
you've made a mistake.
Here's how you make it right,and we want you back as one of
(05:18):
us.
You're important to us.
We love you.
Any of your listeners who arehistory nerds that love to do it
- the earliest recordedof this happening in the English
language in North America canbe found in what's called the
(05:41):
Great Treaty of 1722, where twoEnglish colonists murdered a
native man and it was bringingthem to the brink of warfare
with the Iroquois.
The five nations of theIroquois Confederacy.
(06:03):
And the colonists at that timecouldn't afford to have those
people at war with them.
It would have really been notgood.
And so they went to apply whatwe would consider our
traditional justice system,their English form of justice,
(06:25):
saying we're going to throwthese guys in prison, find them
guilty and execute them, andthat will appease the native
nations.
But the indigenous people saidno, no, no, wait, wait.
That's not how we do things.
We ask for a ceremony thatcloses, that recognizes the harm
(06:52):
that's been done.
We ask for reparations, andthose two guys are our trading
link to you.
They're very important to ourcommunity.
We want them back.
There's no point in two moredeaths and it's funny that
treaty is still on the books inthe United States.
(07:13):
It's one of the earliest, maybethe earliest foreign treaty,
but anyway, that's for thehistory nerds.
I'll move on.
So it's like one of the easiestways to understand it is to
compare it, contrast it, withour traditional forms of justice
(07:37):
.
And our traditional forms ofjustice ask these questions what
law has been broken?
Is this person guilty or notguilty of breaking that law?
And if they're guilty, what istheir punishment going to be?
(08:00):
How severe is it going to be?
In restorative justice, we askthree different questions what
happened?
And that includes what were youthinking when you did that?
What were you feeling?
Who do you think would beharmed by your actions?
(08:22):
How do you think they would beharmed?
And we answer the secondquestion is who's been harmed
and how?
And then the third question ishow do we repair the harm that's
been done?
How do we make it right?
They're very differentquestions.
Carri Richard (08:46):
Absolutely.
Lou Freyer (08:47):
And they come with very different results.
So here's where I see the tiein with grace, the connection
between grace and forgiveness,because every one of these
situations that I've beeninvolved in, and there's been
(09:09):
lots.
Forgiveness is what comes outof it and reconnection between
people.
And if that's not grace, Idon't know what is.
It's something that flowsthrough us.
Forgiveness, you know, we don't, it's something that comes
(09:31):
through us to another person andthat we receive from another
person.
And that's pretty much, I guess, my working definition of grace
.
You know, something that comesto us from beyond and that we
can channel to another.
So and one of the things Iguess this probably best can I
(09:54):
tell some stories?
Carri Richard (09:57):
Yes.
Lou Freyer (09:57):
Or do you have questions?
I think I saw questions in youreyes.
I know yeah.
Carri Richard (10:01):
So good.
Ebony Gilbert (10:02):
I think, you.
Carri Richard (10:03):
I think you read me well, so it's a beautiful
definition and a beautifulpicture.
You've painted such a clearpicture of the difference
between the traditional justicesystem that we have in the
United States today that is likeone of separation it's almost
like you did this thing and nowyou're out and this restorative
(10:28):
justice where it's like, no,you're not out, and actually we
want you in, so let's see how wecan invite you back in, which
is, I mean, everybody, everybodyneeds that message.
Lou Freyer (10:42):
I I yeah.
Carri Richard (10:45):
And I think we had talked about this before and
this was a powerful statementyou made, so I just want to say
it.
You talk about this process.
Tell me if I say it right.
It removes the deed from thedoer.
Lou Freyer (11:02):
Right, yes, exactly right.
Carri Richard (11:05):
And it's yeah, so .
So grace is like I'm a lovedhuman being, right?
Grace tells me that I am alwaysloved, and it's as you speak
about this, it's that reflectionof, hey, wait a second, the
deed you did was no bueno, notokay, but you're still, let's
(11:31):
figure out how to you knowthere's still love for you here.
Lou Freyer (11:36):
Right, yeah, it's.
Yeah, those are very importantpoints.
It is about bringing peopleback to community, whereas so
much of our not only criminaljustice but discipline systems
say in school, what happens whenyou get in trouble on school?
(11:56):
You get suspended.
Well, you go to the principal'soffice and and the ultimate
thing would be suspension orexpulsion You're picked out.
Carri Richard (12:07):
Yeah.
Lou Freyer (12:10):
And and I'm going to come back to that because we're
doing some work with schoolsright now but you know, or in
the criminal justice systemyou're sent away, you know
you're incarcerated, and in bothof those cases, when the person
(12:31):
returns from that thatsituation it's just like you're
back.
There's no reintegration to thecommunity.
So, like when I'm doingtrainings for people you know
groups that use this I say tothem to imagine the very worst
(12:56):
thing that you've ever done inyour life, the very worst thing
that I've ever done, and thenimagine that printed on a
t-shirt that you have to weareverywhere you go.
And that's what happens oftenin our traditional justices.
(13:16):
You know X, common thief,addict, bad kid, whatever goes
on there.
And so I gave it.
I gave it a piece for anyhistory nerds in your audience.
Here's a piece for, like anytheory nerds in your audience.
Okay, Okay.
(13:37):
The foundation, thepsychological foundation for why
this works, is something calledreintegrative shame.
Okay, and we tend to think ofshame as a bad thing, right, but
it's like probably the firstemotion we ever feel.
(13:59):
We feel it like this as littlekids Uh-oh, I did something
wrong, right.
And in restorative justicepractices, reintegrative shame
(14:20):
is what we're looking for in theprocess.
In traditional justice, thereis stigmatizing shame applied.
In other words, the personmight feel like I've done
something wrong, but they'regiven no way out, they're given
(14:44):
no way to correct it, they'regiven no way to come back into
the community.
Ebony Gilbert (14:50):
Would reintegrative shame be similar
to remorse?
Lou Freyer (14:55):
Yes, okay, yes, yeah , it's that.
And let me take you through theprocess.
For example, sure, an example.
I use a criminal justice andI'm going to kind of like,
because of the confidentialityand all this, I'm just going to
like mesh together a bunch ofsituations.
(15:17):
But, um, so you know, imagine aperson, hard-of- hearing,
coming off a long day of workand going to McDonald's, to the
(15:37):
drive-up window and ordering awhopper.
And the person in the drive-inwindow says "we don't sell
whoppers, but I want to walk.
Now they're in an argument.
By the time that that unfoldsand the manager gets involved,
(15:59):
there is soda being thrown atpeople.
This one situation was in themidst, the height of the
pandemic, when nobody knew whatwas going on and one person took
the gum out of their mouth andthrew it in the face of the
other person.
Police were called.
Police came and do what they do.
(16:21):
They listened, they figured,have to arrest somebody.
So somebody gets the personthat drove up gets arrested,
charged with assault.
Okay, here's what would happenin traditional justice.
That case would go to court.
(16:41):
It would all of a sudden becomenot a conflict between two
people.
It becomes like if I assaultsomebody and I go to court.
How do they define that?
The state of Virginia againstLou Freyer, right, yeah, and it
(17:07):
takes a conflict and builds itinto a bigger conflict.
Win and lose situation.
I'm now not the people thatdon't have a voice in that or
the people who are involved it'sanother conflict that's created
.
It's a win- lose situation, youknow, and it's.
(17:28):
Y know who wins and loses?
The lawyers.
"Got them off or, you know, gotthe maximum sentence".
So, if it's a maximum, if it'sa sentence thing, then that
person is removed from thecommunity.
(17:51):
So in this case and here'ssomething that's very exciting
you're in Virginia we wereapproached by the commonwealth
attorney's office, starting inRichmond and then Henrico County
and now here at Williamsburgand James City County.
Those are the prosecutors,right?
They called us up and said, "weneed something else.
(18:14):
We can't just keep sendingpeople to prison.
And they have been verysupportive in sending us
referrals, working with us.
I mean, it's kind of that'sgrace right there.
You would think the defenseside would be saying hey, you
(18:40):
know, I was blown away the firsttime I had that conversation.
So in this particular case theywent to the preliminary hearing.
The commonwealth.
The prosecutor pulls thedefense attorney aside and says,
"you know we have this otherprocess we could try.
Let's see if the judge willcontinue the case for 90 days.
(19:05):
Give us time to do this and seehow it works.
Okay, so the judge agreed, wegot the case and this is how it
goes.
You have pre-conferencemeetings with each side and
everyone involved.
Explain very carefully what theprocess is like.
(19:27):
You read, you know you workthrough with people Like the
person has to be able to admityes, I did that.
They have to be able to say yes, I did that.
Ebony Gilbert (19:44):
Can I pause for one second?
That is so good.
I had written that down for myquestion, because grace is
available to everyone, but youhave to receive it.
You have to receive it.
Lou Freyer (19:53):
Right, exactly.
Ebony Gilbert (19:54):
There's a step you have to take to access it
right?
It kind of triggered me and Igot excited on the inside.
But that right there, thatpiece is so critical.
Lou Freyer (20:05):
It's so important and in working with the legal
system, we have a very clearlydefined of.
Whatever happens in our processis confidential, so the person
is not saying I'm guilty ofcommitting a crime.
And back to what you said,Carri, "I did this, you know.
(20:27):
Yeah, I threw my gum in thatguy's face.
I did that.
And in working with themthrough the questions who do you
think was harmed?
How do you think they wereharmed?
You know what were you thinkingat the time?
What were you feeling?
I was just angry.
(20:47):
You know, I was just angry.
And it's like to help themunderstand.
We're going to talk about oneincident that happened on one
day at one time.
Period.
We're not here to talk aboutyou as a person.
Carri Richard (21:10):
It's huge.
Lou Freyer (21:12):
It's huge.
So if you have that on the onthe responsible party's side and
then you meet with theso-called victims, you know the
harmed party and they are opento sharing what it was like for
them and listening.
And having their questions thatthey want to ask.
(21:35):
You do all that work ahead oftime.
You meet with their supporters,their families and community
members who will all be part ofsitting in a circle together to
work this through.
Parentheses, it's not a panacea, it's not for everything.
You know, sometimes we get areferral and you sit down with
(22:00):
the offender in a criminaljustice system and they'll they
can't get past it.
Yeah, but he.
But yeah, but I didn't, but itwas yeah, but it's like well,
all right, then you need to gotry and convince the judge of
that.
This is not going to work foryou.
Or if there's the possibilityof revictimization of the harmed
(22:22):
party, that's not going to workfor them.
So after you do all that work,then you get together as a
circle and you go around and youstart with the person that did
the harm.
You say what did you do?
What were you thinking?
Who do you think was harmed andhow?
(22:43):
And usually that's prettysurface.
You know.
I remember a kid was walkingdown the street, saw a bicycle.
Said, " a nice bicycle hoppedon the bicycle road away, got
caught four blacks down thestreet and you know when we got
(23:05):
sent to a person it got sent tous and it was like who do you
think was harmed?
"Well, I don't know who you know.
So it was somebody's bike, Iguess.
Well, turns out it was the doordash guy's bike.
It was his living Right.
But he didn't, you know, hedidn't know that at the time.
(23:27):
It's like, yeah, that'd befunny bicycle.
I went for ride on the bicycle.
Especially young people arelike that.
You know a lot of school things.
Why?
Why did you do that?
We thought it would be fun.
And then everybody else in theroom gets to talk about how they
were affected.
(23:47):
The person who was directlyaffected you know, the girl in
the drive-in window, the managerthat got into the fight at the
drive-in window, the person youknow who was charged with
assault their family memberswhat would it was like to get
that phone call come get themfrom jail.
(24:09):
You know this person wasworking in a field where they
had to have a background check.
If they were convicted of acrime they would not be able to
continue their career.
So how's that going to affecttheir family and the person?
(24:30):
It's a very specific set ofquestions, a very specific
process and a very respectfulprocess.
Ebony Gilbert (24:40):
Can I ask a question?
Lou Freyer (24:41):
Yes.
Ebony Gilbert (24:43):
So and I'm just going to play a little bit of
Devil's advocate here, go for it.
I love it.
We're feeling what you'resaying, but for the listeners
this sounds very warm and fuzzyand feel- goody.
How do you couple the feel-good, it sounds good, it's a
great pitch with, "his holdspeople accountable and they're
not going to go do it again.
Lou Freyer (25:04):
That's where - I'm glad you asked that question.
I was just getting there.
Oh, that's where the yeah wherethe reintegrate of shame piece
comes.
Ebony Gilbert (25:12):
Okay, okay.
Lou Freyer (25:13):
Okay, as the person who's the offending party, is
sitting there looking in the eyeof the person they've harmed
and hearing from them how theywere harmed, and it gets very
emotional.
(Ebony - I imagine.
(25:35):
People get angry, they cry.
They, you know, and you willphysically.
I know it's working because Ialways have that person sitting
next to me when I'm facilitating.
I know this is working.
When I start to see themgetting smaller in their chair,
they're starting to, you know.
They might have said I thoughtyou know it was funny, it was
(25:58):
like so what?
bicycle?
And when they start to collapseand feel it and cry themselves,
okay, you know, that's thepiece that's going to have them
not do it again.
Yeah, if you, if you're, if yougo to court and you get sent to
(26:22):
prison, you're going to be madat the judge and the system and
the whoever, okay.
But when you have to looksomeone in the eye and listen,
without coming back at them,without you know explaining
yourself, without defendingyourself, and feel it - O ne of
(26:49):
the myths around restorativejustice is that it lets people
off easy.
Ebony Gilbert (26:55):
That's what I was getting at.
Lou Freyer (26:57):
Yeah, it's much harder.
It's much harder because theydo feel it and that's, that's
the shame piece.
The redintegrative piece comesnext, where everybody gets a
chance to say the question thereis what do you need?
(27:19):
What do you need now?
What do you need now, what doyou need now?
All around the circle, and weclose the, we close the process,
coming out of it with anagreement that everyone signs.
(27:40):
Often - now, in this case, withthe one I'm going to come
mishmashing together, in caseslike it, all the people wanted
was a sincere, heartfelt apology, and that came.
That came with tears, in truefeeling.
(28:03):
Okay, and, and this happens,that this is part of the magic,
the grace, if you want to callit that happens in this process
that, like the manager in thatparticular case said and I'm
sorry, because I need to trainmy staff better on what to do
(28:28):
with people who are hard- of-hearing at the drive- in window,
I can't hear the drive inwindow myself, but imagine and,
that manager began to cry andsaid, "I said to the judge at
(28:51):
the hearing this is all weneeded was to talk to each other
.
I didn't want this person to bepunished, and they walked out
of that room hand in hand,laughing, after giving each
other a hug.
I had one.
(29:14):
This is going to be a mishmashtoo - where the a person was
charged with felony assault onthe police office.
You know where that will go forthem.
Carri Richard (29:31):
That's, that's a big ticket item.
Lou Freyer (29:33):
That's a big ticket item.
First offense in the midst of ablackout, drinking thing, and
the prosecuting attorney saidthere's going to be nothing
served here sending this youngwoman to jail.
Yeah, so we did do all the prepwork.
The assaulted officer, who wasput out of work for a week, came
(29:58):
in kind of like armed for youknow, ready to do this, willing
to do it, and by the time we gotdone, and again, there are
people from the larger communitythere.
That's we always invite peoplefrom like the larger community,
(30:20):
and that's that also helps withthat shaming part.
You have to say what you did infront of a whole pile of people
.
Carri Richard (30:26):
Can you give an example.
I know you can't be specific,but when you say larger
community, is it family members?
Is it people they don't know?
Lou Freyer (30:35):
It's all of that, and people that they don't know.
So we have volunteers who, likeyou say, the safety in my
neighborhood is important to me,you know, and when you broke
into this person's house andburglarized it, it destroys the
safety I feel in my community.
(30:56):
Or people will say you know,"we just want you to turn this
around and not do it again,particularly with in
neighborhoods and people ofcolor, because it's like don't
(31:16):
reinforce the image that peoplehave of my neighborhood.
You're better than that, we'rebetter than that, so you know.
So we do, we do an agreement,what do you need?
What do you need?
What do you need, what do youneed and what the person can
agree to do as a result, and alot of stuff comes out of that -
(31:40):
community service, financialrestitution, and the person
agrees to do what they need todo to repair the harm.
Carri Richard (31:54):
So so what happened with this woman who was
up for felony assault?
Lou Freyer (32:05):
Well, I'll tell you what happened in this part of
the process.
Okay, at the very end thepolice officer went over and
said here's my personal cellphone number, call me anytime
you need help.
And the police officer wasthrilled because they never get
(32:32):
to do that, they never get tosee a positive outcome, and you
know I'm dealing withconfidentiality.
But let me say, it ended up,went back to court with our
report.
We write a report, then thatgoes back to the judge which
(32:56):
says, yeah, here was theagreement and we monitored and
the person fulfilled their sideof the agreement.
They did whatever was requestedof them In that case that was a
period of probation and theperson continued to do well
(33:19):
after the probation, all chargeswould be dropped.
That's a lot different than youknow, three to five in the state
penitentiary or whatever itwould be.
So that's another one, and thisI don't have to be confidential
(33:41):
about because people have beenvery, very public about it there
was a student at VCU inRichmond who died as a result of
a hazing incident.
You know he was part of joiningthe fraternity.
He was, you know, encouraged,almost forced to drink not just
(34:05):
a fifth of a whole handle ofJack Daniels in a gulp and died
and his fraternity sponsor andthe president of the fraternity
thought he was just sleepingright.
They didn't do anything.
(34:26):
So they were charged and went tocourt, pled guilty and the
family of the boy who died said,"well we want to have
restorative justice as part oftheir sentence.
And so we held thoseconferences where that family
(34:52):
got to let them know.
Those boys know what it waslike for them.
There were also consequences tothem.
You know they were dismissedfrom the university and so on.
But part of the agreement wasthat they go with the family of
(35:13):
the young man who died to speakto other universities and
fraternities and tell abouttheir experience together.
And even after I think it waslike five times or something
like that they continue to do it.
If you look, there's adocumentary it's called the Adam
(35:38):
Oaks Case, where these peopleare still going around the
country talking to otherstudents and I was just with
them back in May and they'revery close with each other the
(36:02):
young men and mom and dad and acousin of the young man that
died.
Carri Richard (36:15):
So this go ahead Well.
Lou Freyer (36:19):
I was just going to say and just working with some
schools recently in doingre-entry conferencing when
students come back fromsuspension or incarceration,
like sitting in a circle andmaking an agreement of what
they're going to do and thesupports that are going to be
(36:42):
given to them in bringing themback into the school.
Rather than just like oh, yoursuspension's over, go back to
class now.
And forgetting what thatstudent does when they walk back
into classroom - what theyexperience.
Carri Richard (37:02):
So what I'm hearing is that they've gone
through the traditional method,of punishment but you're picking
them back up on the way back in.
Lou Freyer (37:12):
Yeah, I think about when.
I was just what was it?
Tuesday doing training withsome of these school people and
I said you know, think aboutbeing a parent in school.
There's that legal phrase inloco parentis, right, when you
have the kids in school, you'retheir parent and it's like, but
(37:32):
think about being a parent.
Sometimes you send your kid totime- out, you know, but when
they come back out, you helpthem learn ways to not do
whatever sent them there.
You hug them, you tell them youlove them and you go on and
have a life.
A nd that's grace too - thelove that goes there.
(37:58):
So in restorative practiceswe're looking at having high
expectations for people, highrequirements for behavior and a
high level of support.
And our traditional justicesystem says you know "you broke
(38:23):
a law.
Here's what we're going to doto you and what we work towards
is "you made a mistake.
Here's what we're going to dowith you, together to get over
it.
And magic happens.
I could sit here and tell10,000 stories.
(38:44):
I mean really.
Carri Richard (38:47):
Yeah, I mean it's I want to use the M word - it's
miraculous.
And yeah, if it from a contrastperspective, like if you look
at you know, when you go to jail, you do your, you do your
punishment and then you're free.
You're free and, by the way,people are going to know what
(39:10):
you did and we're not going totalk about it and you're going
to have to figure out how tobring yourself back into the
fold.
And then there's this piecewhere there's probably healing
that's going on that actuallyhad nothing to even do with the
incident, because you know, thiscommunity that's coming
together for the welfare of theentire community.
Lou Freyer (39:34):
Yes, of every one.
And and and like to go back toyour question, Ebony, about,
like, it sounds soft, but it'sthe only way to get people to
change, because they have totake responsibility for what
they do.
I'll tell one more story.
(39:56):
It's got nothing to do withrestorative justice, but it sort
of put me on the path.
And I was working time ago, inlike mid 70s, you know, I was
working as a counselor in anelementary school and making no
money.
So I had a second job at nightin the county prison, right,
(40:22):
working with the prisoners.
And there was no difference.
If I had to deal with two firstgraders that got in trouble
because they were fighting orwhatever, their first response
was yeah, but he, he, he.
And when I would talk with theprisoners in the prison, what
(40:49):
are you doing here?
Oh, that judge doesn't like me.
You know, my friend talked meinto it.
You know that person shouldn'thave been there.
Ebony Gilbert (41:00):
No personal accountability.
Lou Freyer (41:02):
Yeah, nothing, and so there's gonna be no, no
reason to change, especially ifyou walk out with the shirt on
of shame and it just fuels youranger.
So I, I Think that, I think -do you have other questions?
(41:29):
I can kind of pause there ortell more stories.
I have no idea what our time islike here.
Carri Richard (41:38):
It's whatever we want it to be.
I think - yeah, I do have aquestion.
So, as you said, it's a veryspecific process and you - you
meet with the, the Person whodid the deed, and you meet with
(41:59):
the people who were - the personor people who were affected by
it, and then you bring thecommunity together and you have
this specific process andeverybody understands the
process before you get there,all these things.
So it's very structured andit's such a - If you were to and
(42:21):
I don't know if you can, howcan you how could you bring this
into your own home?
Lou Freyer (42:32):
Yes, it's basic listening.
Okay, that's the thing there's,there's power, there's healing,
and listening to someone'sstory with respect and Making
them feel heard Okay, that'swhat would like.
Crime victims really get out ofthis A lot of it.
(42:53):
They have questions.
You know, why did you breakinto my house?
What is it about me that mademe a target?
Most times it's got nothing todo with it, you know.
But there's there's healing inlistening to the stories and -
(43:16):
Remember how part of the, therestorative process, is asked
for what you need.
What do you need?
What do you need?
What do you need?
That is the question To be ableto ask and listen to very
carefully in this situation.
So and I was taught long agosomething that's called specific
(43:40):
change request- Mm-hmm.
Okay, a process.
It's kind of like you need tounderstand, like it, when I'm
doing something over and overthat's annoying, like maybe the
person I live with - you know.
Then it's for either me to goto her or her to come to me and
(44:08):
say, look, we keep fighting overthe same thing, okay, so what
do I need to know?
First of all, why is it soimportant to you?
There's a story behind that,right?
There's a reason behind it.
(44:30):
I need to listen and understandthat.
To see how my behavior isreally affecting another person
and why - that's restorativejustice, right.
And then it's asking, what doyou need from me to make it
(44:51):
right now.
In our homes, usually, whatcomes out is is like a huge
universal request, "I want youto never, ever".
(45:12):
Or always do this.
right yet, and you know,that's where you have to listen
to the other person, and this ispart of the restorative justice
process too.
When we come up with theagreement, what do you need?
What do you need?
The other question is to theperson who is you know the
(45:36):
caused the harm.
Can you do that?
Carri Richard (45:40):
mmmm.
Lou Freyer (45:41):
Can you promise to do that?
And if there's going to be aproblem with you doing that, we
need to negotiate.
Okay, so like for financialrestitution - if it's a 14 year
old kid, you know, and you don'twant the parents paying that
(46:02):
money.
Carri Richard (46:04):
It's not gonna help.
Lou Freyer (46:06):
Yeah, so you know, we talked about community
members.
We have a lady in Richmond whoowns five McDonald's franchises,
and and she'll come sometimesbe a community participant
because that's where herrestaurants are in those
neighborhoods.
And she'll say, you know, ifshe listens and she's seeing
(46:28):
true remorse and all that andthere needs to be financial
restitution made.
She'll say, " I'll give you ajob, one my restaurants, but
your entire paychecks going tothat and and if it works out,
you have a job".
So but they're like gettingback to home, it's like you know
(46:53):
.
So it's like, well, I can'tpromise that always, ever, never
stuff, but what's one thing Ican do that will show you.
But I've heard you and it'simportant to me", and And then
(47:13):
when you get to that, then Ineed to be really, really
focused on doing what I promisedI would do - that one thing,
and it can build from there.
So does that answer yourquestion?
Carri Richard (47:34):
Absolutely, there's so much good stuff in
there and it's that - I t's aframework of listening and then
also being heard and saying,okay, I hear you and and I'm
gonna - I love that specific -here's the one thing I can do to
show you, because I don't knowthat I ever had that tool
(47:58):
without somebody teaching methat, right?
It was like, "well, you'repissing me off, so you need to
change everything.
Lou Freyer (48:09):
Yeah, all the time.
yeah, right.
Carri Richard (48:10):
I'll do that and then it's more the focus of how
you're failing at not being ableto change everything.
Lou Freyer (48:18):
Yeah right.
Yeah yeah, and here's the thingtoo.
I'll use an example from frommy life.
You know, we used to often getinto like arguments in the car
If I was driving, because belike, do you see that?
(48:41):
And then I'd get mad.
Of course, I see that, whatever.
So we had that conversationright and, and it's like what,
you know what is this about?
And then listening to the storyof my wife being in a car with
(49:02):
her six brothers and sister andmom and her father driving drunk
and feeling trapped in the backseat, and it's like, oh, that's
who I have in the car with me,you know.
So what can I do?
"Well, I want you to always payattention, and never did that,
(49:25):
you know.
It's like well, where, here'swhere we landed, "when the
light turns green, go.
And you know what?
I was one of those guys thatwould be looking around and the
(49:47):
light would turn green and Iwouldn't go to somebody behind
me blew their horn.
Ebony Gilbert (49:54):
Right, we have a podcast on that, we do.
Carri Richard (49:59):
We do.
Ebony Gilbert (49:59):
We talked about that we really do, the person
who does not go when the lightturns green and how it makes us
feel yes.
Lou Freyer (50:07):
That was me.
You know I should look up thatpodcast, but you know what?
So that's the thing it's like.
"I hear you, it's important tome, I will do that.
Now it's important, I do that,right, and guess what happens?
Just like the person in therestorative conference who can
(50:32):
turn their life around withsupport and choices not to do
that, whatever that specificthing was.
Again - Guess who became abetter driver?
Carri Richard (50:48):
Mr.
Lou!
Lou Freyer (50:49):
Guess who no longer gets honked at?
Or as much anyway.
But you know, and it can buildfrom there.
I have learned to pay betterattention driving.
Carri Richard (51:07):
And it also it changes things from - I love
that example, and I am going tofigure out which podcast it was.
Lou Freyer (51:16):
Yeah, send it to me I will, but it switches that
from.
Carri Richard (51:20):
I have to do this because she's mad to I get to.
I get to pay attention at thelight because I know what an
impact it makes.
It's super empowering.
Lou Freyer (51:36):
Because I love you and grace is grace is love,
right.
Ebony Gilbert (51:42):
Yeah.
Lou Freyer (51:43):
That's another definition.
That's, that's the message ofrestorative justice in a
nutshell.
We love you, you know.
But if one of the people thatwork, that work with us, Dr.
Josh Bacon, has a book out.
It's a good one.
It's called, I screwed up nowwhat - it talks about this
(52:07):
process with young people.
Carri Richard (52:12):
Awesome, Lou, so much goodness.
I'm excited to hear it, tolisten to this again because I
know I'm going to pick up stuff.
It is such a gift to have youhere.
Ebony, you are the master atclosing us out, and bringing it
(52:32):
all together.
So I'm putting you on the spot.
Ebony Gilbert (52:36):
I don't know if I'm going to do it justice.
You get it?
Oh, there we go.
Probably failed with thatcomment, but I'm going to give
it a shot.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
This was so jam packed full ofgood nuggets and good takeaways.
A couple of things that really,really resonated with me,
totally resonated with me.
(52:56):
Sometimes the grace of God canfeel like we're getting a pass,
and we're hesitant to offer thatgrace to other people.
I feel like we're letting themgo, get away with something.
That's not the principle.
It's rooted in love.
The reintegrate of shame.
We have to redefine how wethink of shame.
(53:17):
Shame is acknowledging that youdid something that wasn't the
most decent thing in the worldand we're going to turn from
that and do something differentthe next time.
So redefining shame whetherit's shame for something you,
some crime you committed againstsomeone else or something that
you're just embarrassed aboutthat doesn't make you feel good
and doesn't represent yourfamily values.
Redefine that and use it to thebenefit and the building up how
(53:39):
you can be better the next time.
Grace - that restorative justiceis not absolved.
You have accountability.
There still may be someconsequences.
It just packs love and grace ontop of it so that you don't
have to walk around with thex-con t-shirt on all the time.
There's healing in that,there's restoration in that, and
(54:00):
when it comes to us, then itcan flow through us.
So it's important that we'reable to receive it so that we
can pass it on to others.
And I have a page full of notesand I'll stop there because I
don't want too get lengthy.
There was so much in it.
I need to listen to it againand carry.
I don't know, maybe we can havea part two where we kind of
just piggyback off of this andwe talk about all the lessons
(54:22):
that came out of it.
Carri Richard (54:23):
Absolutely, absolutely, and we might bring
you back on in it, Lou.
Lou Freyer (54:28):
Yeah, absolutely, I can talk 10 hours.
We've only done one and I wasgoing to say too I don't know if
you like I have some websiteswhere people are interested in
learning more which I can sendto you.
(54:48):
Karen, I don't know if you canattach to the information piece
of your podcast.
Carri Richard (54:53):
Yeah, absolutely, and for anybody out there who
has questions about this,because there was so much,
please put them in the comments,let us know and we'd be happy
to follow up.
Lou Freyer (55:05):
So Lou, thank you so much.
Yeah, exactly.
Carri Richard (55:08):
Well, thank you for the opportunity.
And thank you for the work thatyou do in this world.
It's really it's beautiful,yeah, so.
Lou Freyer (55:16):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Carri Richard (55:18):
This was rich.
Lou Freyer (55:19):
Great, this was Glad to be here.
Awesome.
Well, thank you all.
Carri Richard (55:26):
We'll see you.
Thank you, Ebony, and Grace out, grace out, grace out, thank
you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know.
We love to hear from you andshare it with a friend.
Also, please be sure tosubscribe so you're notified
when a new episode is posted.
We hope you're leaving withanother pointer to grace, a new
perspective that will light itup in your own life.
Until next time, be well, bebold, be kind to yourself and be
(55:57):
on the lookout.
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