April 4, 2024 • 43 mins
Have you noticed a deeper level of political division in your community or church? If so, you’re not alone. Today we chat with Joshua Butler about faith and politics. We take a look at how Jesus disrupts politics as usual and redeems our partisan divide. We discuss being bold in our convictions, and involved in politics while staying Christ-centered. This episode is packed with practical tips to help us through the upcoming political season.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Gracefield Grit.
I'm your host, lana Stinner,and we are chatting all about
growing your faith, family andthe backyard farm.
Here at the GracefieldHomestead, we are having honest,
hard and authenticconversations with some amazing
guests about getting back to thebasics and what's important in
life.
We are not for everyone and wedon't clean up our conversations
(00:29):
, so you will get the uneditedchat Each episode.
You can expect practical tipsand encouragement.
I am so honored to have youjoin us today, so grab a cup of
coffee and let's do this thing.
Hey friend, welcome back to theGracefield Grit podcast.
Today we are going there withthe topics that most want to
(00:50):
stay away from politics in faith, with Joshua Ryan Butler.
Joshua loves shifting paradigmsto help people who wrestle with
tough topics of the Christianfaith by confronting all the
popular thought patterns andreplacing them with the beauty
and power of the real thing.
He is a husband, dad of threeand a man chasing after God's
(01:13):
truth.
What would Jesus do?
We are going to ask thatquestion and other tough ones
today.
So welcome, josh.
I'm so glad you're here with ustoday.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Oh, thank you so?
Much.
I'm so glad to be here and soexcited looking forward to this
conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yes, and we met probably close to a year ago,
sometime last year, on a Zoomcall with some of our other
friends at our agency, and I'mjust really excited about your
book, and so by the time thispodcast episode airs, your book
will already be out.
Today is launch day for you aswe're talking, and so what a
(01:50):
timely, timely message.
So my first question for you,because we're going to go there
with all the tough topics todayyour family, man, strong in your
faith.
What on earth made you want towrite a book and focus on the
political climate and partisannorms of our culture this year?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh man, great question.
Well, you know so I've been apastor for a little over 20
years now and I've noticed thelast two election seasons man,
it's just gotten wild, it'sgotten crazy.
And I've seen the politicaldivide is wider than ever and
I've seen it fracturing likefamilies and friendships and
even churches.
You know so I share one storyin the intro of a church that in
(02:30):
our network where, you know so,we had 10 churches on a network
and one of them, the politicaldivide just fractured their
church.
You know like, split in andhave 1500 out of 3000 people
left and left angry.
And the backdrop was, from myperspective, was really simple.
You know that one of thepastors had put out of a pretty
simple Instagram post, kind of areal assurance of his thoughts
on something, and it's a prettytame to me, you know.
(02:53):
It's like, oh, it's aperspective.
But there was a crew of aboutseven or eight people on the
church who got really angry.
They kind of received itthrough kind of a partisan group
, which things he wasn't evensaying that were being read into
it, and they started a campaignto take down the church.
They left angry, they gotcoffee shop conversations with
people getting them riled up.
They started, they got thisgroup started scouring every
(03:16):
pastor in all 10 of the churchesin the network, scouring every
pastor's sermons, looking forammo, looking at the pastors and
their spouses, social mediafeeds, trying to find anything
they could to take down thechurch.
They got a neighboring churchto launch that they went to to
start a sermon series againstthis church and again so much of
it was slander, like they weresaying, hey, the church is about
this stuff that they had nevereven said.
(03:38):
That you know like, and justseeing it fracture this church
that we love.
And I wish that was just a oneoff story.
But I get your story afterstory of friends who are pastors
and churches around the countryand of families I know and
friendships I know where they're, just like.
We don't go into Thanksgivingnow feels like entering World
War three, we don't know how tonavigate the political division,
(04:00):
and so a lot of the heartbehind this book was not so much
like, oh, I want to go and jumpinto the political frame, but I
do have this heart as someonewho loves Jesus to just try and
go.
How do we come back toscripture?
Oh man, jesus, what would youhave for us, as your people, to
really navigate with maturityand faithfulness, just going
into the election season thisyear and the moment that we're
(04:21):
in.
How can we do this?
Well, as the people have got.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And that's so good, and I don't know.
I mean I'm in my fifties now.
I have never seen the politicalclimate this intense and this
divided as ever before.
So you know, we definitely thisis a topic that we need to dive
into.
I mean, it seems likeeveryone's you know, up in arms
(04:47):
and has sides and all of that,but man, it's, it's showing
Jesus's love through it, allthat's that's the trick right so
for those of us that have thesestrong convictions about our
political beliefs, how do we getalong with the others in our
lives that don't agree?
(05:07):
I mean, and you know I'll behonest and most of my audience
here they kind of know where Ifall on the.
You know we we talk a lot aboutthe farm and goat joy and
gardens and all that kind ofstuff.
But, occasionally, ifsomething's you know strong on
my heart and I can't sleep aboutit, you know I'll do a podcast
episode here and there.
You know like I'm very pro-life, I'm very conservative, I'm
(05:31):
very much from a.
I mean, I'm Bible bell, I'm inMissouri, here in the most
conservative state there is, andso sometimes you feel like
you're in the sound bubble ofmost of the people around you
are failing, you know, or havethe same views, and all of that.
And you know, I'll be honest,I'm so excited to talk to you
(05:52):
because for me I do strugglehaving family members and you
know friends are in the pastco-workers where you, you have
these strong views and you don'twant to lose respect if they
have the opposite view and youwant to be Christ-like.
So give us some tips so thatyou know we don't alienate and
(06:14):
we show Christ.
What, what do you speak to thatfor a minute?
Because you're speaking to mebecause I need some help.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yes, totally, totally no.
well, you know one big tip, youknow, is my goal and hope is not
to get people to leave politicsbehind, where it's actually
that we would not be apoliticalor centrist or whatever it's
really to bring our convictionsto the table, but with a
Christ-like humility and posture, you know, and so part of the
backdrop for this, the last fiveyears pastoring in Tempe,
arizona, which is a college town, and so we had about 40% plus
(06:46):
of the church, were collegestudents and professors, people
at the university, which theytended to lean left politically,
you know, and then.
But where we were at, webordered the university on one
side, and then Chandler andGilbert on the other side, which
were very, you know, lean, verystrongly, right, you know.
And all the folks were in thechurch together, you know.
And so you had, yeah, like youhad, people coming from a very
(07:09):
ideologically diverse place andthis was going okay.
How do we stay at the tabletogether even when we might
disagree?
And one big thing this may seemsimple, but even in not reading
into things that the otherfolks that we know are not
necessarily saying, you knowbeing a good question, asker.
So I mean a few humorousillustrations to turn the book.
We had a visitor at our churchwho leaned very strongly left,
(07:31):
you know, and on the left sideof the spectrum, and they showed
up and they're asking why doyou guys have these all lives
matter posters all over?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
your church.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And I was like we don't have all of these matter
posters.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Oh, the church's like no, you got them plastered
everywhere, you know, and wewere like what are you saying,
Like why I'm not sure whatyou're talking about.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Did we hear graffiti?
I'm thinking you know.
Like, did someone spray paintour building?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Can you show us?
And so they go and show us.
And it's true.
We have these posters aroundthe church with our vision
statement and our vision we'vehad for over 10 years, which was
all of life is all for Jesus.
So all of life is all for.
Jesus, and they were coming,though and with their particular
ideological grade, they werehearing that and reading like oh
, they're saying all thesematters Like that's not what
(08:15):
we're saying.
We're saying all life is all forJesus, you know.
And then we had someone else onthe who leaned right, you know,
on the right side of thespectrum, and there was a sermon
that was done where the pastorwas talking about progressive
sanctification and so kind ofthe historic idea that we don't
become sanctified overnight, wedon't grow in holiness overnight
(08:36):
.
It's a gradual, progressiveprocess.
And he explained all that.
But at the end of the sermon awoman came between who was irate
and was just angry going whyare you saying that if I'm
becoming sanctified, I'm goingto become more progressive?
He's like that's not what I'msaying, you know and then he had
two emails in his inbox thenext morning for people saying
the same, you know, same.
They were angry about the samething, and so those are humorous
(08:57):
illustrations.
But I found that it's actuallyway more common, even if the
examples are that extreme.
It's way more common that oftenwe have a grid.
We're in our kind of ourcircles, where the environment
that we're on on social media,the environment that we're on,
even geographically I live inPortland now, that's where I'm
from, and Portland means verystrong left and I found, oh my
(09:20):
gosh, people I know here haveoften a grid, that their filters
everything they're hearing andthey can often skew how we're
hearing what other people aresaying and can make us even
assume the same things thatthey're not actually saying.
And so I really want to have uscultivate curiosity and I get a
lot more practical in the bookwe can talk about that, but but
(09:41):
I think just recognizing fromthe get go that, a posture of
charity towards those andhumility with those that we're
encountering with I'm going.
Ok, I don't, I don't want toread everything through my
filter.
I want to ask good questions tryto seek to learn and understand
more where they might be comingfrom what experiences maybe of
sheep or perspective in theiropinion?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
That's good.
That's good.
So what would you say to thosethat say it's not politics?
This is biblical truth, youknow uncertain.
You know, it seems like thereused to just be easy politics.
You know we all kind of agreedon the moral issues, and then it
seems like lately it's kind of,you know, taking in, so so
(10:24):
speak, to that a little bit,because I think that's where
people struggle with a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Great, excellent.
So one of the things I do inchapter one of the book is what
I call the poor politicalreligions, just trying to map
the lay of the land right now ofwhere we're at.
And so when we talk about whatis a biblical perspective, so we
often think of politics as leftand right today.
Right, and that's true, left,right side of the spectrum, but
I also argue that there's also atop down axis of modernity to
(10:51):
postmodernity that has split thetraditional political parties
right.
So some of the deepest politicalfighting we see today is not
not just left versus right, butdifferent camps within left,
different camps within the right.
And so the way that I try andmap this out, to summarize, you
know, would be, if we talk aboutthe upper left quadrant or the
(11:11):
modern left, I call the religionof progress.
And so here the creed is we canchange the world.
The high priests in thisquadrant we can think of Steve
Jobs and Bill Gates, places likeSilicon Valley, technology, the
technological boom.
There's a high faith and trustin science and reason and
institutions and technology tomove humanity forward.
(11:32):
The worship leader of thisquadrant is perhaps Bono right,
who is like rallying the massesto uplift humanity around
progress in these things.
If we move to the upper rightquadrant or modern right, which
is kind of what I grew up inwith the right, you know what
would be the creed is.
Maybe pull yourself up by yourbootstraps, where the religion
of responsibility and here thehigh priest historically was
(11:55):
maybe someone like Ronald Reaganand Newt Gingrich, milton
Friedman there is a sense oftaking responsibility and
ownership for your family, foryour job, for those close to you
and if you know, if we couldall just kind of do that with
the world to be a much betterplace, and then you could see
today perhaps that baton hasbeen fast.
You see popular culturalfigures like Jordan Peterson,
(12:17):
where you know if you want tochange the world, start by
making your bed, Takeresponsibility for yourself.
Or Jaco Willink and DavidCoggins, who are big figures
with like extreme ownership Justown your side of things, right.
But now if we move to the lowerquadrants, which are we got to
the postmodern now where thathas split things, the lower left
(12:37):
we call the religion ofidentity, whose motto is live
your truth, and we see thisreally strong.
We think today about the urbancore and figures like Tom and he
see codes or Elliot page, andthere's this strong sense of
this pattern still wants change,still wants progress, but no
longer trust institution,science, technology, all that
out there.
Those things have oppressedpeople, they've made things
(12:58):
worse, and so we need to lookwithin and find the deepest view
and cultivate and express yourinner self, and so this religion
is big on, like Instagram andTikTok, a personal
self-expression like showyourself to the world.
Then if we go to the lowerright when I call the religion
of security and here at thecreed, would be good fences make
good neighbors.
(13:18):
There's a sense of the world'sa dangerous place.
There's threats.
We need security to live safe.
There's still a sense ofresponsibility, but it's not so
much to objective moral truthout there as much as loyalty to
insiders, those who are with usor like us and, yeah, and with
this one.
Again there's kind of thatpostmodern suspicion of science,
(13:42):
institutions and reason andauthority, and so here we'll
hear a lot of things like man,the deep state government is out
to get you big pharma, it'spushing its meds, it's vaccines,
it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,it's, it's on you, the deep
state.
You know the fake media is outto deceive you, and we need to
stand up against those things.
And so what I talk about isthat in these four quadrants,
(14:05):
each of these has some truth.
Like the Bible, god gives usall four of these values God
gives us we see in the Garden ofEden, progress and
responsibility and identity andsecurity.
But when those things become anidol that is kind of uprooted
from God's creation and designand something that we value and
elevate over our allegiance toChrist, it can take us in these
(14:26):
distorted directions.
And so I argue that all four ofthese quadrants have some gifts
to bring to the table, but allfour have some real distortions
that we see in our culture nowthat can wreak havoc.
And so I think part of you knowwhat I'm arguing for or
advocating for in this book isthat as we encounter people who
lean in different directions,you know, I know some good
(14:48):
friends who lean towards each ofthose four quadrants I have one
eye.
We lean towards.
You know the call to bring yourlean, but submit your bow.
You know to bring your leaningto that we would bring our
leaning, our political leaning,with the values and perspective
and experience that we have, andbring that to the table, but
that we would submit our bow,meaning we would submit our
ultimate allegiance to Jesus andthat can create a context where
(15:10):
we can learn from people wholean in different directions.
But we can also stand againstsome of the distortions that
come in each of those quadrantsthat we're seeing wreak havoc
today.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
That's so good and I, you know I absolutely loved
your book title and I don't evenknow if I mentioned that
earlier.
It's Party Crashers.
How Jesus Disrupts Politics asusual, and Redeems Are Partisan
Divide and I just think, man, Ihave a lot of work to do in that
(15:41):
area and I think you know,whichever quadrant you're in, I
think most of us are just so dugin and struggle with how do we?
It's gotten so heated, like yousaid, you know Thanksgiving
dinner you get to where you'relike, oh, is that one gonna be
there?
That's gonna hammer me again.
(16:03):
Or you know that type of thingand you see it dividing families
, and so I think you know what atimely message.
So another question for you whyisn't it important for
believers to resist thetemptation to choose friendships
, small groups and churchesbased on political affinity?
(16:24):
The benefits of spending timewith those with different
political leanings thanourselves, of course, you know I
kind of like the idea of goingto a church where my pastor
believes.
You know, I want my pastor tobelieve like I do.
I wanna think you know he has mysame views on the Bible and all
that.
So why is that not the bestroute to go?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Great, no, great question.
Well, that few observations.
One, you know, I think, ofsocial media, for example, today
, and some of the impact ofwhat's happening, and part of
that is, I think, it's tendingto amplify the most extreme
voices, you know.
So studies would show that themost extreme 10% on the left,
10% on the right, are theloudest and most present.
(17:08):
So if you're living on socialmedia world, you tend to think,
man, that's everyone, the silentmajority there's a good 80%
plus of folks who are frustratedwith the polarization probably
have way more in common, youknow, and so I think there's a
danger that we can, if we're notaround people that are
different from us we're justkind of living in the social
media bubble world we can becomeconvinced that, you know that
(17:31):
the conversation is at a way,more extreme level than it
really truly is.
And likewise, I think, in thatwe tend to dehumanize and people
online in ways you've nevertalked to someone that way in
person, you know.
But when there's that distanceonline, we talk that way and it
can become easy to really getcaught up in sort of demonizing,
like everyone over there islike this and we're, you know
(17:53):
right.
But the third one, and this ismaybe the most significant to
what you were saying, I believe,is that when we're only in
relationship or connection withpeople who see the world of
what's in what we do, it tendsto push us towards the most
extreme positions, whatever sideyou may be on right.
So there's an influential bookthat came out a while ago called
(18:14):
the Big Sword, by Bill Bishop,and what he traced and studied
in this was how the tagline ofyou like mixed company,
moderates and homogeneouscompany pushes us towards the
extremes.
And what he meant was that oneof the things we're seeing in
American society is that whereyou live geographically and
where you live, you know, socialmedia, wise online is tending
(18:36):
to push us into environmentswhere everyone around us sees
the world the same way we do.
And what tends to happen thereis when you lose that kind of
mixed company with people whosee the world differently, that
mixed company tends to providemore nuance.
You still may have, like I do,you still have very strong
convictions, but you see themwith a bit more nuance.
You see the other side, orpeople who are different, with a
(18:57):
bit more of their humanity andall, but as we get siloed into
environments where like again,I'm here in Portland where
Tensilene very progressive and Iknow so many folks is like
that's the only world they know,the only people they know, and
that can really distort theirperspective of the other side.
And so I think, whateverenvironment we're in fighting to
(19:20):
sustain or cultivaterelationships with people who
see the world differently isgoing to make us, I think, more
mature in how we follow Jesus,how we understand that we can
see the other side, even when wehave restaurant convictions.
We see their humanity and Ibelieve, ultimately this is
something Jesus did and modeled,that Jesus gathered to himself
a politically diverse group ofdisciples.
(19:41):
So look in the book at how,yeah, he brings to himself, like
the they were a mess.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
They were all over the board.
They were definitely not alikeany of them.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
yeah, Totally, and you think I mean.
The zealots wanted to overthrowthe Roman Empire and the tax
bookers with collaboratorskeeping the Roman Empire in
power and then Jesus calls themboth into his disciples and
you're going.
Oh man, those had to be somereally interesting campfire
conversations.
You know where they're doingministry together throughout the
day, and then they're talkingabout their hopes, of dreams at
the end, and he's calling themstuff Blue-collar fisherman and
white-collar doctors and there'slike just this outrageous mix
(20:16):
and I love.
I feel like that new TV series,the Chosen like, does a good job
of showing just kind of thehumanity and the different
conversations and they've gotdifferent perspectives of
leanings and I think for Jesusthat's part of the point, you
know is that he's actually hedidn't.
Jesus didn't have to go to thecross and die so that we could
hang out with our buddies.
You know, he died to reconcilea diverse group of people who
(20:37):
are learning to come together inChrist and work through this
stuff together through our unityin him.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's so powerful and so true and I love that
series.
We just finished watching thelast one in the movie theaters
and, yeah, the picture that theyyou know there was some
artistic liberty there, but man,what a good picture of those
disciples and how diverse theywere.
And you know, when you weretalking about how, you know you
(21:08):
can learn from others and youknow it helps your perspective,
I, you know, I think back to atime when I was in the workforce
and a very small.
I worked for a nonprofit and itwas only six of us and I was
the only one with this politicallean and all the others had a
different and they were veryvocal and you know I'm usually
(21:29):
vocal but I'm like the only onethere, you know, and so I
remember going home and tellingmy husband it's so bizarre how
we're so different in this onelittle tiny area of you.
Know these political things, butour lives, our daily lives, you
know like 95, 98% you know,they're good moms, they love
(21:49):
their kids, they wanna make suretheir kids are, you know,
eating healthy and exercising,and they go to church, and we're
just totally opposite.
But we wanna focus on thosedifferences.
But we go home and we all dothe same things, with our family
and our going to the grocery,and so it is, you know, so
important to find those commongrounds with still, you know,
(22:11):
holding your faith and holdingyour beliefs.
So you talk about six creativeoptions for healthy political
involvement that are in linewith the faithful Christian
witness.
Tell us what those are.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Great, definitely, yeah.
So often I think for many of uswe feel like there's man,
there's only three options.
Right, many people feel likeyou've got the elephant option
and the docking option.
You know, like the Republicanor Democrat, you've got the
ostrich option, which is sort ofbut your head in the sand
period, and we hope this allblows over.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
That might be easier, I think.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Totally, totally.
But I actually wanna suggestthat there's six other creative
options.
In each of these we see Ibelieve in the Bible and
scripture, and we also see inChristian history tradition.
So, you know, the first thingyou talk about is the local
option, where we have so muchemphasis on national politics
today and, yes, go out and castyour vote.
But I actually think thatthere's so much that we can do
(23:06):
locally and to actually getinvolved in our communities.
So one thing that we did at ourchurch last election season was
we started what we call prayerand action groups.
And we started, you know,prayer and action because
sometimes people pit thoseagainst each other, like, oh,
don't give us your prayers, wejust need action.
Go.
No, we have the God of theuniverse on our side, we wanna
go to him, you know.
And then some folks would belike, oh, we'll pray about it,
but we don't actually pray andyou know, and we don't actually
(23:27):
get involved.
But we challenge our folks whoare the most passionate about
the political season to go, okay, well, let's get our hands
involved, you know, like here inour city, in our community.
And so what people?
You know we started two groupsone on sanctity of life, a
pro-life group and one oncriminal justice, knowing that
each of those you know one wasoften associated with the right,
(23:49):
the other with the left andcalling people who were
passionate about those issues toget involved in this group.
And so about a dozen, five, 12,15 people in each and going hey
, we want you to commit togathering together for a year
for learning from some of thebest you know, reading some of
the best books, meeting withpeople locally who are leading
in this area, and to commit topraying together on this issue
(24:09):
and, by the end of that year, tocommit to something that you
can do constructively here inour community that would make a
constructive, positive impact.
And what the fruit of that wasamazing and other groups began
to launch in other areas likethis.
But we found that there'sactually so much that we can do
locally that is powerful, whereI think, like Jesus, the kingdom
(24:30):
, it often starts like thatyeast, that in the dough that
starts with this seed that growsinto a tree.
It starts small but tangible.
It can have tremendous impactlong-term.
So there's the local option.
Second option I call the Danieloption, when there are some
people who I think are called topolitical office, like Daniel
was as an official in Babylon,and so when I think about that,
(24:54):
I've had multiple electedofficials in congregations where
I've pastored, you know, andtrying to walk with them through
that, and sometimes they'rereally going okay.
How do I navigate some of thetricky waters of this?
And I take a lot of inspirationfrom Daniel, chapter one, where
he's in Babylon and they wanthim to eat food from the king's
(25:15):
table and to take the name ofpagan God, and Daniel lets them
name him after a pagan God, buthe doesn't eat the food from the
king's table.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
And I kind of want to be like Daniel what are you
doing?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
man, eat the steak.
Take the steak, but don't letthem call you after a pagan God
you know.
But the Bible commends him forthis.
This is the right thing and soI think it's going.
Man, god is giving himdiscernment to navigate things.
Even scholars today areconfused.
Why did he do the one, not theother?
They're not sure.
But it's commended in scriptureand I think there's a sense of
inspiration here to go.
God can provide discernment andwisdom for those in office to,
(25:48):
if they really pursue him andseek him, not to compromise
convictions or things, but tonavigate some of those tricky
waters with discernment.
I'll go to the other ones morequickly, but I have the
prophetic option, which is sortof like Martin Luther King Jr,
where you're not so much workingfrom within the system but
outside of it and bringingcreative imagination of like.
Here's a different way that theworld could look like Also.
The fourth is what I call thescuba option, which is people I
(26:11):
know who have gone deep and donelong work in a specific area,
such as my friend Jenny, who'sdone long-time work for 20 years
in foster care and vulnerablechildren, and she's not a
politician but she's the one thepoliticians now come to when
they're making policy forvulnerable kids going.
You know this field help us.
I think of people like WilliamWilper Forest, historically, who
(26:32):
went really deep, working for along time on a specific issue
to accomplish change.
The fifth option is themonastic option, which is people
who say man.
I don't know that I can getinvolved in politics, sipping it
, without feeling compromised.
So I'm gonna invest in mychurch and my local community to
(26:52):
actually be an alternativecommunity in the midst of the
world that surrounds us, toactually modeling something
better and cultivating adifferent kind of space here.
And then the sixth one is thereform option which is going.
There are some really helpfulways that we all know the system
is broken.
So I talk about some ways thatwe can work for reforming a
better type of system.
Things like campaign financereform and ranked twist voting,
(27:15):
proportional representation,things that people can explore
as possible ways to make thesystem better.
But big picture is going.
I hope I can spark ourimagination with some different
ways beyond just which you knowbox.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
We check about it, you know for actually involving
yeah, and that's that's so smartand that's you can make such a
big difference in your owncommunity.
And you're right.
We we spend so much time justfocused on the national level
and you know every every littlecommunity is is different and
(27:49):
and need your help.
So I think that's so wise.
Why is it important to explorecommon historical practices of
the church to understand youknow what is going on now, how,
how do you see those tiedtogether?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Great why, man, I think there's so much we have we
can learn from the global andhistoric church.
So historically you might talkabout the local option.
There's a rich tradition inChristian tradition called
Subsidiarity which reallyemphasizes the local involvement
.
It kind of emphasizes, like umman, local relationships, local
network, local institutionshaving a way more Powerful
(28:28):
impact the gods interested atthe level, then necessarily the
big, broad, abstract distance atdistant ones.
When we think of you knowmentioned the Daniel option
there's a rich tradition ofPolitical thought in terms of
for those in office and those ingovernment, those in those
positions, how those would work.
When I think of the as one ofthe options I mentioned, you
(28:49):
know it is rooted in kind of thereformed caipirian tradition of
what we call the spirit orsovereignty of God giving
Different spirits of societyserve an authority to cultivate
his flourishing those areas.
So I think there's just so muchwe can learn there, but
globally as well.
Harder, where this became sopowerful for me is I used to be
(29:10):
a global pastor Before I becamea lead pastor and I was
overseeing working a lot withunderground, with churches in
Vietnam, in Cambodia, and so inVietnam you had the persecuted
church there who were seeking tolive faithfully in the context
of explicit persecution.
Many of the pastors that havebeen jailed for their faith had
been put in Work camps for deck,you know, for a decade.
(29:32):
And then in Cambodia, wherethere was so much Corruption in
the government just blatant,explicit corruption that they
were having to navigate asthey're working.
And then I found myself inPortland, which was a, you know,
pastoring in a city that washostile to the Christian faith,
and yet we're seeking to workwith the mayor's office and the
Civic leaders to Contribute toour city and kind of go Okay,
(29:53):
how do we do this?
Well, where are the lines where, you know, we want to maintain
our integrity as the church andnot compromise?
We also want to beconstructively involved with our
city and I've just found andthere's so much that we can
learn from the global Church andthe historic church when we
situate ourselves in the bignessof Jesus's kingdom around the
world and in history, it'sinspiring to me to go Okay,
(30:14):
jesus is winning, the gates ofhell will not overcome his
kingdom, and it gives him athing, an inspiration and
confidence for us to have thatbigger picture, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
That's, that's amazing.
I didn't realize you did thatthat.
Wow, what.
What a mission, and I'm surethat just totally Gave you a new
perspective on the church.
That's, that's amazing.
So kind of a Side note herethat I wasn't planning to ask
you about do you see aDifference in the church as a
(30:47):
whole since COVID, in theshutdown and Kind of the rise of
the online church?
You know we could all watch ourshows on on, you know, youtube
or wherever before, but itbecame the norm.
So speak a little bit to thatand what your view is on on the
(31:09):
church changes after after theshutdowns.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Definitely no, I think you're right.
You know, I think that the thatCOVID and the shutdowns in 2020
man, so I was, you know,pastoring through that season
and I just saw it seemed likethe 2016 the division fracturing
was Strong, it was big there,but 2020 feels like it just
exponentially went wild.
And I think you know a varietyof factors there that come to my
(31:35):
mind.
One was I do think it pushed usas a society even more online
and I do think that the socialI'm on social media, I enjoy it.
You know I'm online, I'm bringfor it.
But I do think there are thingsthat there are Tenancies that
the online world exacerbates.
You know it pushes us into morehomogeneous echo chambers that
(31:57):
algorithms tend to feed and silous into areas where we're just
kind of confirmation biases,confirming whatever biases or
things that we already tend tohave.
I think that that kind offurthers some of the
dehumanization anddehumanization of the other side
.
So I think the online elementwas one.
I think another one is that alot of the, the, the, the pull,
(32:23):
the issues with polarization.
They hit home much more.
You know, like this wasn't justkind of an abstract.
What do I think about this?
It's like oh my gosh, theseissues are.
I'm stuck in my house, like,like, like, but even like, I
think that sense of like, oh mygosh, these, these aren't just
kind of abstract issues, butthis, this, really these are
(32:43):
impact, how we respond to this.
Whatever side you're on, thisis either gonna impact People
around me in this way or peopleare me this way.
Either we're all gonna be shutin or this can impact the health
of others.
You know, like it.
I think it brought home thatthat real world impact of these
things and the stakes seem tohave gotten raised.
It's like for for many folks.
(33:04):
And, finally, I think that itkind of, you know, is
interesting.
So it was in Arizona and now inPortland, which are very
different environments.
I grew up here in Oregon andthen be back in in Arizona, but
we found Even tons of peoplemoving into Arizona out of
California and Portland placelike that, or moving into other
(33:26):
places like, like, evengeographically, people seem to
be resorting themselves around,like I'm sick of this place, I
want to go over here, I'm sickof this one right here, because
of kind of the political orcultural Affinity of those
places, and so all I say I thinkpost 2020, it what's the the
(33:49):
thinking of?
Like Star Wars with thehyperboost lights?
Question to extremes some ofthe trajectories you're already
on, whether it's social media,geographically, whatever into
more of those silos andratcheted up the sense of fear
and practical impact of thestakes of some of these
(34:12):
conversations.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I totally agree.
It just feels different,definitely.
And then, and then for somethat are, you know, some didn't
want to come back, they got soused to, you know, sitting on
their couch and their PJs, andthen it's like, well, why would
you know, do I really need to bein physical Communion and
(34:34):
fellowship with those peoplewhen I can just watch it on TV?
And so it definitely haschanged, changed things.
So one last question for you,for, for those on either side
you know, either political partyor wherever they land, if, if
they're having someone that isin their life, that they're
(34:56):
close to and I know people on,you know, in this- yeah that
that they disagree with, or ormaybe they agree with, but
they're going to that superextreme.
You know, I can, I can think of,of someone in my life and it's
like, okay, your conspiracytheory.
You know you may be right, youprobably are right.
I thought you were running onyour right, you know so yes.
(35:18):
But like, where's the joy youget?
You know, turn the news off atsome point.
You know you have to.
Where's your fruit if you'respending all your time
researching this?
Even if there's some truths inthere, you know you could your
waste in time that could be onthe ground making a real
difference.
Or you know Where's the joy,where's that?
So speak.
(35:39):
And there's, you know, on theother side of things, the same
way.
So speak to those people thathave someone in their life that
they mainly agree with, butthey're going a little extreme.
And and how, how do you savethose relationships or how do
you balance that out If it's tootime-consuming and too
(36:00):
overwhelming on both sides ofthose?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
That's great, excellent, yeah, so most of the
book is really trying to givepractical resources along these
lines of what you're asking.
So a couple areas, one that Ifocus on in chapters four and
five, is what I call the 10political commandments, which we
used at our church in the lastelection season.
So this, like in a church or asmall group, even a family or
whatever you know, to be able togo hey, these are 10 things we
(36:25):
want to commit to in thisupcoming election season in
terms of our posture.
So we jokingly called these the10 political commandments
because we didn't want them tobe confused with the actual 10
commandments.
But when these are things Godcommands in scripture, so we do
want to take them seriously, andso these weren't about what
(36:49):
opinions to hold, but ratherabout how to hold them well.
And so these were, you know,just the first one was worship I
commit my allegiance to KingJesus over all idols and
ideologies.
The second one was love ofneighbor I commit to
participating in civic life as ameans of loving and serving my
neighbor rather than justserving my own interests.
(37:09):
And then there were other ones,like the image of God.
I'm a people of wisdom,fruitful speech, political
justice, peacemaking, removingthe law, humble learning, loving
enemies.
But I think one resource andthese are available as a free
download on my website If youwant to go there it's called a
Christian political commitment.
One resource is to kind ofprepare yourself and even a
(37:30):
small group or church or friendsor others or family going hey,
this is, this is how theguidelines God gives us for how
we want to prepare to enter intothis.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
And even if others violate that.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
We're going to stick to these.
You know we're going to stick toJesus even if others don't.
That's not being one thing, butanother thing that I look at is
what I call formationalpractices for a polarized world,
which is learning to see someof the things that we might take
for granted as readingscripture, as being in community
with other people in our church, like face to face community in
(38:02):
our church.
You know you mentioned how muchwe then pulled apart into
online.
Maybe I'll just stick out, butI show a lot of research on
actually being involved in anactual church body.
You know fellowship has adramatic impact on how we
actually gauge maturity in theseareas.
But I look, for example, atreading.
(38:23):
Scripture is one example.
You know that we might notthink of that as something that
shapes us politically, but itdoes.
You know that there's actuallyGod's story for the world
contrasts with a lot of thecompeting stories at play.
So talking about how man, thereligion of progress, is telling
a certain story about the world, the religion of responsibility
(38:47):
and of identity, of security,those religions at play right
now are telling a certain storyabout the world that can run in
some dangerous directions, andyet God's story provides a
counter narrative, a counterstory that actually shapes and
forms us to be attuned toresisting some of the idolatrous
stories of our age Community.
You know, being in a smallgroup, being in connection and
(39:10):
staying connected and committedwith people who see the world
differently, perhaps like that,actually has a formative impact
on our lives.
Rather weird.
Prayer I look at creativepractices of prayer.
I've got a friend who prays.
You know, when you think ofyour kingdom, come God, you will
be done and Earth is heaven.
The Lord's prayer.
A friend of mine takes newsheadlines he sees and he
(39:34):
creatively reimagines what God'skingdom looked like breaking
into this area.
So, for example, when he sawthe bombings in Syria a while
back, he began to pray thatAleppo in Syria would become
like the ultimate vacationdestination where people could
nap during the day in thestreets, that people could stay
out late dancing, because ofjust the safety and peace and
(39:55):
security, you know.
But he can imagine man I'mseeing on Earth right now.
It looks like this horrendous,but imagine.
Let his imagination be fuel.
God, I want to pray towardsyour kingdom breaking in.
I look at ways to actually useyour ballot as a catalyst for
prayer.
How to pray we, you know, notjust pray.
(40:16):
God, make my candidate win, youknow.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Actually pray creatively.
You know, we pray for our dailybread, but do we pray for the
farmers who are growing thatbread and the truckers who are
delivered to the grocery store?
The Department ofTransportation who's helping to,
you know, facilitate all thatso that we have the abundance
that we have right now.
Similar areas with medicine ordifferent areas.
(40:40):
Yeah, so emboldening and kindof catalyzing our prayer of life
, and I think doing things likethis gathering regularly I'm
sure you know that that forms usunder Christ, our ultimate King
, you know and doing thesepractices regularly actually is
going to shape and form us sothat we step into that
conversation with the person whosees the world differently.
(41:00):
And maybe they're immature,maybe they're small-minded,
maybe they're caricaturing us,maybe they're demonizing us, but
I think we're going to have thefortitude and strength then to
be able to go into thatconversation and not let it
rattle us not, let us shake usnot, let us turn us into
fighting fire with fire, youknow not becoming immature in
response, but we can be themature person who kind of raises
(41:22):
the bar in the conversationrather than kind of sinking into
the lowest common denominatorof how people around us might be
.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Wouldn't that be wonderful in this in the next
few months.
Right, that would be fabulousGoodness Well.
I'm so glad you came on today.
Tell our friends here onlinewhere they can find you.
You know social media wherethey can find this book.
Tell us, tell us where to findyou.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Thank you.
Yes, my website,joshwellrimebutlercom Social
media.
I'm most active on Instagramand some on Facebook, so it's a
Joshua Butler PDX.
It's my handle there, JoshuaButler PDX, and yeah, would love
to interact with people.
Check out the book.
It's available wherever Amazon,wherever books are sold.
(42:08):
I've got a whole list ofretailers on the book page on my
website, if you check that out.
But yeah, if folks check it out, I would love to hear what you
think, so feel free to read ityes and I share your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
I love, love, love your title Party Crashers.
How Jesus Disrupts Politics asusual, and Redeems Are Partisan
Divide.
My goodness, could there be abetter title?
There couldn't be.
I mean, I love it because it'sjust so timely and needed so
well.
Thank you for coming on and wewill add all of those links into
our show notes for those of youthat are looking to find him
(42:42):
online.
So thanks for coming today.
Thank you for joining us todayin this episode of Gracefield
Grit.
I know that your time isvaluable and I truly appreciate
you being here.
I hope it was helpful and thatyou'll share it with a friend.
In order to schedule amazingguests on our show, we could use
some good reviews.
So if you've enjoyed thisepisode, I'd be honored if you
(43:04):
could head over to the podcastapp on your phone, tap the album
art for the Gracefield Gritpodcast, scroll down to the
bottom of the page and write areview.
I'm looking forward to our nextepisode and I hope you'll join
us again.
Blessings to you today, friend,as you live out your own
Gracefield Grit.
Welcome to Gracefield Grit.
I'm your host, lana Stinner,and we are chatting all about
growing your faith, family andthe backyard farm.
Here at the GracefieldHomestead, we are having honest,
hard and authenticconversations with some amazing
guests about getting back to thebasics and what's important in
life.
We are not for everyone and wedon't clean up our conversations
(00:29):
, so you will get the uneditedchat Each episode.
You can expect practical tipsand encouragement.
I am so honored to have youjoin us today, so grab a cup of
coffee and let's do this thing.
Hey friend, welcome back to theGracefield Grit podcast.
Today we are going there withthe topics that most want to
(00:50):
stay away from politics in faith, with Joshua Ryan Butler.
Joshua loves shifting paradigmsto help people who wrestle with
tough topics of the Christianfaith by confronting all the
popular thought patterns andreplacing them with the beauty
and power of the real thing.
He is a husband, dad of threeand a man chasing after God's
(01:13):
truth.
What would Jesus do?
We are going to ask thatquestion and other tough ones
today.
So welcome, josh.
I'm so glad you're here with ustoday.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Oh, thank you so?
Much.
I'm so glad to be here and soexcited looking forward to this
conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yes, and we met probably close to a year ago,
sometime last year, on a Zoomcall with some of our other
friends at our agency, and I'mjust really excited about your
book, and so by the time thispodcast episode airs, your book
will already be out.
Today is launch day for you aswe're talking, and so what a
(01:50):
timely, timely message.
So my first question for you,because we're going to go there
with all the tough topics todayyour family, man, strong in your
faith.
What on earth made you want towrite a book and focus on the
political climate and partisannorms of our culture this year?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh man, great question.
Well, you know so I've been apastor for a little over 20
years now and I've noticed thelast two election seasons man,
it's just gotten wild, it'sgotten crazy.
And I've seen the politicaldivide is wider than ever and
I've seen it fracturing likefamilies and friendships and
even churches.
You know so I share one storyin the intro of a church that in
(02:30):
our network where, you know so,we had 10 churches on a network
and one of them, the politicaldivide just fractured their
church.
You know like, split in andhave 1500 out of 3000 people
left and left angry.
And the backdrop was, from myperspective, was really simple.
You know that one of thepastors had put out of a pretty
simple Instagram post, kind of areal assurance of his thoughts
on something, and it's a prettytame to me, you know.
(02:53):
It's like, oh, it's aperspective.
But there was a crew of aboutseven or eight people on the
church who got really angry.
They kind of received itthrough kind of a partisan group
, which things he wasn't evensaying that were being read into
it, and they started a campaignto take down the church.
They left angry, they gotcoffee shop conversations with
people getting them riled up.
They started, they got thisgroup started scouring every
(03:16):
pastor in all 10 of the churchesin the network, scouring every
pastor's sermons, looking forammo, looking at the pastors and
their spouses, social mediafeeds, trying to find anything
they could to take down thechurch.
They got a neighboring churchto launch that they went to to
start a sermon series againstthis church and again so much of
it was slander, like they weresaying, hey, the church is about
this stuff that they had nevereven said.
(03:38):
That you know like, and justseeing it fracture this church
that we love.
And I wish that was just a oneoff story.
But I get your story afterstory of friends who are pastors
and churches around the countryand of families I know and
friendships I know where they're, just like.
We don't go into Thanksgivingnow feels like entering World
War three, we don't know how tonavigate the political division,
(04:00):
and so a lot of the heartbehind this book was not so much
like, oh, I want to go and jumpinto the political frame, but I
do have this heart as someonewho loves Jesus to just try and
go.
How do we come back toscripture?
Oh man, jesus, what would youhave for us, as your people, to
really navigate with maturityand faithfulness, just going
into the election season thisyear and the moment that we're
(04:21):
in.
How can we do this?
Well, as the people have got.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And that's so good, and I don't know.
I mean I'm in my fifties now.
I have never seen the politicalclimate this intense and this
divided as ever before.
So you know, we definitely thisis a topic that we need to dive
into.
I mean, it seems likeeveryone's you know, up in arms
(04:47):
and has sides and all of that,but man, it's, it's showing
Jesus's love through it, allthat's that's the trick right so
for those of us that have thesestrong convictions about our
political beliefs, how do we getalong with the others in our
lives that don't agree?
(05:07):
I mean, and you know I'll behonest and most of my audience
here they kind of know where Ifall on the.
You know we we talk a lot aboutthe farm and goat joy and
gardens and all that kind ofstuff.
But, occasionally, ifsomething's you know strong on
my heart and I can't sleep aboutit, you know I'll do a podcast
episode here and there.
You know like I'm very pro-life, I'm very conservative, I'm
(05:31):
very much from a.
I mean, I'm Bible bell, I'm inMissouri, here in the most
conservative state there is, andso sometimes you feel like
you're in the sound bubble ofmost of the people around you
are failing, you know, or havethe same views, and all of that.
And you know, I'll be honest,I'm so excited to talk to you
(05:52):
because for me I do strugglehaving family members and you
know friends are in the pastco-workers where you, you have
these strong views and you don'twant to lose respect if they
have the opposite view and youwant to be Christ-like.
So give us some tips so thatyou know we don't alienate and
(06:14):
we show Christ.
What, what do you speak to thatfor a minute?
Because you're speaking to mebecause I need some help.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yes, totally, totally no.
well, you know one big tip, youknow, is my goal and hope is not
to get people to leave politicsbehind, where it's actually
that we would not be apoliticalor centrist or whatever it's
really to bring our convictionsto the table, but with a
Christ-like humility and posture, you know, and so part of the
backdrop for this, the last fiveyears pastoring in Tempe,
arizona, which is a college town, and so we had about 40% plus
(06:46):
of the church, were collegestudents and professors, people
at the university, which theytended to lean left politically,
you know, and then.
But where we were at, webordered the university on one
side, and then Chandler andGilbert on the other side, which
were very, you know, lean, verystrongly, right, you know.
And all the folks were in thechurch together, you know.
And so you had, yeah, like youhad, people coming from a very
(07:09):
ideologically diverse place andthis was going okay.
How do we stay at the tabletogether even when we might
disagree?
And one big thing this may seemsimple, but even in not reading
into things that the otherfolks that we know are not
necessarily saying, you knowbeing a good question, asker.
So I mean a few humorousillustrations to turn the book.
We had a visitor at our churchwho leaned very strongly left,
(07:31):
you know, and on the left sideof the spectrum, and they showed
up and they're asking why doyou guys have these all lives
matter posters all over?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
your church.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And I was like we don't have all of these matter
posters.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Oh, the church's like no, you got them plastered
everywhere, you know, and wewere like what are you saying,
Like why I'm not sure whatyou're talking about.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Did we hear graffiti?
I'm thinking you know.
Like, did someone spray paintour building?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Can you show us?
And so they go and show us.
And it's true.
We have these posters aroundthe church with our vision
statement and our vision we'vehad for over 10 years, which was
all of life is all for Jesus.
So all of life is all for.
Jesus, and they were coming,though and with their particular
ideological grade, they werehearing that and reading like oh
, they're saying all thesematters Like that's not what
(08:15):
we're saying.
We're saying all life is all forJesus, you know.
And then we had someone else onthe who leaned right, you know,
on the right side of thespectrum, and there was a sermon
that was done where the pastorwas talking about progressive
sanctification and so kind ofthe historic idea that we don't
become sanctified overnight, wedon't grow in holiness overnight
(08:36):
.
It's a gradual, progressiveprocess.
And he explained all that.
But at the end of the sermon awoman came between who was irate
and was just angry going whyare you saying that if I'm
becoming sanctified, I'm goingto become more progressive?
He's like that's not what I'msaying, you know and then he had
two emails in his inbox thenext morning for people saying
the same, you know, same.
They were angry about the samething, and so those are humorous
(08:57):
illustrations.
But I found that it's actuallyway more common, even if the
examples are that extreme.
It's way more common that oftenwe have a grid.
We're in our kind of ourcircles, where the environment
that we're on on social media,the environment that we're on,
even geographically I live inPortland now, that's where I'm
from, and Portland means verystrong left and I found, oh my
(09:20):
gosh, people I know here haveoften a grid, that their filters
everything they're hearing andthey can often skew how we're
hearing what other people aresaying and can make us even
assume the same things thatthey're not actually saying.
And so I really want to have uscultivate curiosity and I get a
lot more practical in the bookwe can talk about that, but but
(09:41):
I think just recognizing fromthe get go that, a posture of
charity towards those andhumility with those that we're
encountering with I'm going.
Ok, I don't, I don't want toread everything through my
filter.
I want to ask good questions tryto seek to learn and understand
more where they might be comingfrom what experiences maybe of
sheep or perspective in theiropinion?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
That's good.
That's good.
So what would you say to thosethat say it's not politics?
This is biblical truth, youknow uncertain.
You know, it seems like thereused to just be easy politics.
You know we all kind of agreedon the moral issues, and then it
seems like lately it's kind of,you know, taking in, so so
(10:24):
speak, to that a little bit,because I think that's where
people struggle with a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Great, excellent.
So one of the things I do inchapter one of the book is what
I call the poor politicalreligions, just trying to map
the lay of the land right now ofwhere we're at.
And so when we talk about whatis a biblical perspective, so we
often think of politics as leftand right today.
Right, and that's true, left,right side of the spectrum, but
I also argue that there's also atop down axis of modernity to
(10:51):
postmodernity that has split thetraditional political parties
right.
So some of the deepest politicalfighting we see today is not
not just left versus right, butdifferent camps within left,
different camps within the right.
And so the way that I try andmap this out, to summarize, you
know, would be, if we talk aboutthe upper left quadrant or the
(11:11):
modern left, I call the religionof progress.
And so here the creed is we canchange the world.
The high priests in thisquadrant we can think of Steve
Jobs and Bill Gates, places likeSilicon Valley, technology, the
technological boom.
There's a high faith and trustin science and reason and
institutions and technology tomove humanity forward.
(11:32):
The worship leader of thisquadrant is perhaps Bono right,
who is like rallying the massesto uplift humanity around
progress in these things.
If we move to the upper rightquadrant or modern right, which
is kind of what I grew up inwith the right, you know what
would be the creed is.
Maybe pull yourself up by yourbootstraps, where the religion
of responsibility and here thehigh priest historically was
(11:55):
maybe someone like Ronald Reaganand Newt Gingrich, milton
Friedman there is a sense oftaking responsibility and
ownership for your family, foryour job, for those close to you
and if you know, if we couldall just kind of do that with
the world to be a much betterplace, and then you could see
today perhaps that baton hasbeen fast.
You see popular culturalfigures like Jordan Peterson,
(12:17):
where you know if you want tochange the world, start by
making your bed, Takeresponsibility for yourself.
Or Jaco Willink and DavidCoggins, who are big figures
with like extreme ownership Justown your side of things, right.
But now if we move to the lowerquadrants, which are we got to
the postmodern now where thathas split things, the lower left
(12:37):
we call the religion ofidentity, whose motto is live
your truth, and we see thisreally strong.
We think today about the urbancore and figures like Tom and he
see codes or Elliot page, andthere's this strong sense of
this pattern still wants change,still wants progress, but no
longer trust institution,science, technology, all that
out there.
Those things have oppressedpeople, they've made things
(12:58):
worse, and so we need to lookwithin and find the deepest view
and cultivate and express yourinner self, and so this religion
is big on, like Instagram andTikTok, a personal
self-expression like showyourself to the world.
Then if we go to the lowerright when I call the religion
of security and here at thecreed, would be good fences make
good neighbors.
(13:18):
There's a sense of the world'sa dangerous place.
There's threats.
We need security to live safe.
There's still a sense ofresponsibility, but it's not so
much to objective moral truthout there as much as loyalty to
insiders, those who are with usor like us and, yeah, and with
this one.
Again there's kind of thatpostmodern suspicion of science,
(13:42):
institutions and reason andauthority, and so here we'll
hear a lot of things like man,the deep state government is out
to get you big pharma, it'spushing its meds, it's vaccines,
it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,it's, it's on you, the deep
state.
You know the fake media is outto deceive you, and we need to
stand up against those things.
And so what I talk about isthat in these four quadrants,
(14:05):
each of these has some truth.
Like the Bible, god gives usall four of these values God
gives us we see in the Garden ofEden, progress and
responsibility and identity andsecurity.
But when those things become anidol that is kind of uprooted
from God's creation and designand something that we value and
elevate over our allegiance toChrist, it can take us in these
(14:26):
distorted directions.
And so I argue that all four ofthese quadrants have some gifts
to bring to the table, but allfour have some real distortions
that we see in our culture nowthat can wreak havoc.
And so I think part of you knowwhat I'm arguing for or
advocating for in this book isthat as we encounter people who
lean in different directions,you know, I know some good
(14:48):
friends who lean towards each ofthose four quadrants I have one
eye.
We lean towards.
You know the call to bring yourlean, but submit your bow.
You know to bring your leaningto that we would bring our
leaning, our political leaning,with the values and perspective
and experience that we have, andbring that to the table, but
that we would submit our bow,meaning we would submit our
ultimate allegiance to Jesus andthat can create a context where
(15:10):
we can learn from people wholean in different directions.
But we can also stand againstsome of the distortions that
come in each of those quadrantsthat we're seeing wreak havoc
today.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
That's so good and I, you know I absolutely loved
your book title and I don't evenknow if I mentioned that
earlier.
It's Party Crashers.
How Jesus Disrupts Politics asusual, and Redeems Are Partisan
Divide and I just think, man, Ihave a lot of work to do in that
(15:41):
area and I think you know,whichever quadrant you're in, I
think most of us are just so dugin and struggle with how do we?
It's gotten so heated, like yousaid, you know Thanksgiving
dinner you get to where you'relike, oh, is that one gonna be
there?
That's gonna hammer me again.
(16:03):
Or you know that type of thingand you see it dividing families
, and so I think you know what atimely message.
So another question for you whyisn't it important for
believers to resist thetemptation to choose friendships
, small groups and churchesbased on political affinity?
(16:24):
The benefits of spending timewith those with different
political leanings thanourselves, of course, you know I
kind of like the idea of goingto a church where my pastor
believes.
You know, I want my pastor tobelieve like I do.
I wanna think you know he has mysame views on the Bible and all
that.
So why is that not the bestroute to go?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Great, no, great question.
Well, that few observations.
One, you know, I think, ofsocial media, for example, today
, and some of the impact ofwhat's happening, and part of
that is, I think, it's tendingto amplify the most extreme
voices, you know.
So studies would show that themost extreme 10% on the left,
10% on the right, are theloudest and most present.
(17:08):
So if you're living on socialmedia world, you tend to think,
man, that's everyone, the silentmajority there's a good 80%
plus of folks who are frustratedwith the polarization probably
have way more in common, youknow, and so I think there's a
danger that we can, if we're notaround people that are
different from us we're justkind of living in the social
media bubble world we can becomeconvinced that, you know that
(17:31):
the conversation is at a way,more extreme level than it
really truly is.
And likewise, I think, in thatwe tend to dehumanize and people
online in ways you've nevertalked to someone that way in
person, you know.
But when there's that distanceonline, we talk that way and it
can become easy to really getcaught up in sort of demonizing,
like everyone over there islike this and we're, you know
(17:53):
right.
But the third one, and this ismaybe the most significant to
what you were saying, I believe,is that when we're only in
relationship or connection withpeople who see the world of
what's in what we do, it tendsto push us towards the most
extreme positions, whatever sideyou may be on right.
So there's an influential bookthat came out a while ago called
(18:14):
the Big Sword, by Bill Bishop,and what he traced and studied
in this was how the tagline ofyou like mixed company,
moderates and homogeneouscompany pushes us towards the
extremes.
And what he meant was that oneof the things we're seeing in
American society is that whereyou live geographically and
where you live, you know, socialmedia, wise online is tending
(18:36):
to push us into environmentswhere everyone around us sees
the world the same way we do.
And what tends to happen thereis when you lose that kind of
mixed company with people whosee the world differently, that
mixed company tends to providemore nuance.
You still may have, like I do,you still have very strong
convictions, but you see themwith a bit more nuance.
You see the other side, orpeople who are different, with a
(18:57):
bit more of their humanity andall, but as we get siloed into
environments where like again,I'm here in Portland where
Tensilene very progressive and Iknow so many folks is like
that's the only world they know,the only people they know, and
that can really distort theirperspective of the other side.
And so I think, whateverenvironment we're in fighting to
(19:20):
sustain or cultivaterelationships with people who
see the world differently isgoing to make us, I think, more
mature in how we follow Jesus,how we understand that we can
see the other side, even when wehave restaurant convictions.
We see their humanity and Ibelieve, ultimately this is
something Jesus did and modeled,that Jesus gathered to himself
a politically diverse group ofdisciples.
(19:41):
So look in the book at how,yeah, he brings to himself, like
the they were a mess.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
They were all over the board.
They were definitely not alikeany of them.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
yeah, Totally, and you think I mean.
The zealots wanted to overthrowthe Roman Empire and the tax
bookers with collaboratorskeeping the Roman Empire in
power and then Jesus calls themboth into his disciples and
you're going.
Oh man, those had to be somereally interesting campfire
conversations.
You know where they're doingministry together throughout the
day, and then they're talkingabout their hopes, of dreams at
the end, and he's calling themstuff Blue-collar fisherman and
white-collar doctors and there'slike just this outrageous mix
(20:16):
and I love.
I feel like that new TV series,the Chosen like, does a good job
of showing just kind of thehumanity and the different
conversations and they've gotdifferent perspectives of
leanings and I think for Jesusthat's part of the point, you
know is that he's actually hedidn't.
Jesus didn't have to go to thecross and die so that we could
hang out with our buddies.
You know, he died to reconcilea diverse group of people who
(20:37):
are learning to come together inChrist and work through this
stuff together through our unityin him.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's so powerful and so true and I love that
series.
We just finished watching thelast one in the movie theaters
and, yeah, the picture that theyyou know there was some
artistic liberty there, but man,what a good picture of those
disciples and how diverse theywere.
And you know, when you weretalking about how, you know you
(21:08):
can learn from others and youknow it helps your perspective,
I, you know, I think back to atime when I was in the workforce
and a very small.
I worked for a nonprofit and itwas only six of us and I was
the only one with this politicallean and all the others had a
different and they were veryvocal and you know I'm usually
(21:29):
vocal but I'm like the only onethere, you know, and so I
remember going home and tellingmy husband it's so bizarre how
we're so different in this onelittle tiny area of you.
Know these political things, butour lives, our daily lives, you
know like 95, 98% you know,they're good moms, they love
(21:49):
their kids, they wanna make suretheir kids are, you know,
eating healthy and exercising,and they go to church, and we're
just totally opposite.
But we wanna focus on thosedifferences.
But we go home and we all dothe same things, with our family
and our going to the grocery,and so it is, you know, so
important to find those commongrounds with still, you know,
(22:11):
holding your faith and holdingyour beliefs.
So you talk about six creativeoptions for healthy political
involvement that are in linewith the faithful Christian
witness.
Tell us what those are.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Great, definitely, yeah.
So often I think for many of uswe feel like there's man,
there's only three options.
Right, many people feel likeyou've got the elephant option
and the docking option.
You know, like the Republicanor Democrat, you've got the
ostrich option, which is sort ofbut your head in the sand
period, and we hope this allblows over.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
That might be easier, I think.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Totally, totally.
But I actually wanna suggestthat there's six other creative
options.
In each of these we see Ibelieve in the Bible and
scripture, and we also see inChristian history tradition.
So, you know, the first thingyou talk about is the local
option, where we have so muchemphasis on national politics
today and, yes, go out and castyour vote.
But I actually think thatthere's so much that we can do
(23:06):
locally and to actually getinvolved in our communities.
So one thing that we did at ourchurch last election season was
we started what we call prayerand action groups.
And we started, you know,prayer and action because
sometimes people pit thoseagainst each other, like, oh,
don't give us your prayers, wejust need action.
Go.
No, we have the God of theuniverse on our side, we wanna
go to him, you know.
And then some folks would belike, oh, we'll pray about it,
but we don't actually pray andyou know, and we don't actually
(23:27):
get involved.
But we challenge our folks whoare the most passionate about
the political season to go, okay, well, let's get our hands
involved, you know, like here inour city, in our community.
And so what people?
You know we started two groupsone on sanctity of life, a
pro-life group and one oncriminal justice, knowing that
each of those you know one wasoften associated with the right,
(23:49):
the other with the left andcalling people who were
passionate about those issues toget involved in this group.
And so about a dozen, five, 12,15 people in each and going hey
, we want you to commit togathering together for a year
for learning from some of thebest you know, reading some of
the best books, meeting withpeople locally who are leading
in this area, and to commit topraying together on this issue
(24:09):
and, by the end of that year, tocommit to something that you
can do constructively here inour community that would make a
constructive, positive impact.
And what the fruit of that wasamazing and other groups began
to launch in other areas likethis.
But we found that there'sactually so much that we can do
locally that is powerful, whereI think, like Jesus, the kingdom
(24:30):
, it often starts like thatyeast, that in the dough that
starts with this seed that growsinto a tree.
It starts small but tangible.
It can have tremendous impactlong-term.
So there's the local option.
Second option I call the Danieloption, when there are some
people who I think are called topolitical office, like Daniel
was as an official in Babylon,and so when I think about that,
(24:54):
I've had multiple electedofficials in congregations where
I've pastored, you know, andtrying to walk with them through
that, and sometimes they'rereally going okay.
How do I navigate some of thetricky waters of this?
And I take a lot of inspirationfrom Daniel, chapter one, where
he's in Babylon and they wanthim to eat food from the king's
(25:15):
table and to take the name ofpagan God, and Daniel lets them
name him after a pagan God, buthe doesn't eat the food from the
king's table.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
And I kind of want to be like Daniel what are you
doing?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
man, eat the steak.
Take the steak, but don't letthem call you after a pagan God
you know.
But the Bible commends him forthis.
This is the right thing and soI think it's going.
Man, god is giving himdiscernment to navigate things.
Even scholars today areconfused.
Why did he do the one, not theother?
They're not sure.
But it's commended in scriptureand I think there's a sense of
inspiration here to go.
God can provide discernment andwisdom for those in office to,
(25:48):
if they really pursue him andseek him, not to compromise
convictions or things, but tonavigate some of those tricky
waters with discernment.
I'll go to the other ones morequickly, but I have the
prophetic option, which is sortof like Martin Luther King Jr,
where you're not so much workingfrom within the system but
outside of it and bringingcreative imagination of like.
Here's a different way that theworld could look like Also.
The fourth is what I call thescuba option, which is people I
(26:11):
know who have gone deep and donelong work in a specific area,
such as my friend Jenny, who'sdone long-time work for 20 years
in foster care and vulnerablechildren, and she's not a
politician but she's the one thepoliticians now come to when
they're making policy forvulnerable kids going.
You know this field help us.
I think of people like WilliamWilper Forest, historically, who
(26:32):
went really deep, working for along time on a specific issue
to accomplish change.
The fifth option is themonastic option, which is people
who say man.
I don't know that I can getinvolved in politics, sipping it
, without feeling compromised.
So I'm gonna invest in mychurch and my local community to
(26:52):
actually be an alternativecommunity in the midst of the
world that surrounds us, toactually modeling something
better and cultivating adifferent kind of space here.
And then the sixth one is thereform option which is going.
There are some really helpfulways that we all know the system
is broken.
So I talk about some ways thatwe can work for reforming a
better type of system.
Things like campaign financereform and ranked twist voting,
(27:15):
proportional representation,things that people can explore
as possible ways to make thesystem better.
But big picture is going.
I hope I can spark ourimagination with some different
ways beyond just which you knowbox.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
We check about it, you know for actually involving
yeah, and that's that's so smartand that's you can make such a
big difference in your owncommunity.
And you're right.
We we spend so much time justfocused on the national level
and you know every every littlecommunity is is different and
(27:49):
and need your help.
So I think that's so wise.
Why is it important to explorecommon historical practices of
the church to understand youknow what is going on now, how,
how do you see those tiedtogether?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Great why, man, I think there's so much we have we
can learn from the global andhistoric church.
So historically you might talkabout the local option.
There's a rich tradition inChristian tradition called
Subsidiarity which reallyemphasizes the local involvement
.
It kind of emphasizes, like umman, local relationships, local
network, local institutionshaving a way more Powerful
(28:28):
impact the gods interested atthe level, then necessarily the
big, broad, abstract distance atdistant ones.
When we think of you knowmentioned the Daniel option
there's a rich tradition ofPolitical thought in terms of
for those in office and those ingovernment, those in those
positions, how those would work.
When I think of the as one ofthe options I mentioned, you
(28:49):
know it is rooted in kind of thereformed caipirian tradition of
what we call the spirit orsovereignty of God giving
Different spirits of societyserve an authority to cultivate
his flourishing those areas.
So I think there's just so muchwe can learn there, but
globally as well.
Harder, where this became sopowerful for me is I used to be
(29:10):
a global pastor Before I becamea lead pastor and I was
overseeing working a lot withunderground, with churches in
Vietnam, in Cambodia, and so inVietnam you had the persecuted
church there who were seeking tolive faithfully in the context
of explicit persecution.
Many of the pastors that havebeen jailed for their faith had
been put in Work camps for deck,you know, for a decade.
(29:32):
And then in Cambodia, wherethere was so much Corruption in
the government just blatant,explicit corruption that they
were having to navigate asthey're working.
And then I found myself inPortland, which was a, you know,
pastoring in a city that washostile to the Christian faith,
and yet we're seeking to workwith the mayor's office and the
Civic leaders to Contribute toour city and kind of go Okay,
(29:53):
how do we do this?
Well, where are the lines where, you know, we want to maintain
our integrity as the church andnot compromise?
We also want to beconstructively involved with our
city and I've just found andthere's so much that we can
learn from the global Church andthe historic church when we
situate ourselves in the bignessof Jesus's kingdom around the
world and in history, it'sinspiring to me to go Okay,
(30:14):
jesus is winning, the gates ofhell will not overcome his
kingdom, and it gives him athing, an inspiration and
confidence for us to have thatbigger picture, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
That's, that's amazing.
I didn't realize you did thatthat.
Wow, what.
What a mission, and I'm surethat just totally Gave you a new
perspective on the church.
That's, that's amazing.
So kind of a Side note herethat I wasn't planning to ask
you about do you see aDifference in the church as a
(30:47):
whole since COVID, in theshutdown and Kind of the rise of
the online church?
You know we could all watch ourshows on on, you know, youtube
or wherever before, but itbecame the norm.
So speak a little bit to thatand what your view is on on the
(31:09):
church changes after after theshutdowns.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Definitely no, I think you're right.
You know, I think that the thatCOVID and the shutdowns in 2020
man, so I was, you know,pastoring through that season
and I just saw it seemed likethe 2016 the division fracturing
was Strong, it was big there,but 2020 feels like it just
exponentially went wild.
And I think you know a varietyof factors there that come to my
(31:35):
mind.
One was I do think it pushed usas a society even more online
and I do think that the socialI'm on social media, I enjoy it.
You know I'm online, I'm bringfor it.
But I do think there are thingsthat there are Tenancies that
the online world exacerbates.
You know it pushes us into morehomogeneous echo chambers that
(31:57):
algorithms tend to feed and silous into areas where we're just
kind of confirmation biases,confirming whatever biases or
things that we already tend tohave.
I think that that kind offurthers some of the
dehumanization anddehumanization of the other side
.
So I think the online elementwas one.
I think another one is that alot of the, the, the, the pull,
(32:23):
the issues with polarization.
They hit home much more.
You know, like this wasn't justkind of an abstract.
What do I think about this?
It's like oh my gosh, theseissues are.
I'm stuck in my house, like,like, like, but even like, I
think that sense of like, oh mygosh, these, these aren't just
kind of abstract issues, butthis, this, really these are
(32:43):
impact, how we respond to this.
Whatever side you're on, thisis either gonna impact People
around me in this way or peopleare me this way.
Either we're all gonna be shutin or this can impact the health
of others.
You know, like it.
I think it brought home thatthat real world impact of these
things and the stakes seem tohave gotten raised.
It's like for for many folks.
(33:04):
And, finally, I think that itkind of, you know, is
interesting.
So it was in Arizona and now inPortland, which are very
different environments.
I grew up here in Oregon andthen be back in in Arizona, but
we found Even tons of peoplemoving into Arizona out of
California and Portland placelike that, or moving into other
(33:26):
places like, like, evengeographically, people seem to
be resorting themselves around,like I'm sick of this place, I
want to go over here, I'm sickof this one right here, because
of kind of the political orcultural Affinity of those
places, and so all I say I thinkpost 2020, it what's the the
(33:49):
thinking of?
Like Star Wars with thehyperboost lights?
Question to extremes some ofthe trajectories you're already
on, whether it's social media,geographically, whatever into
more of those silos andratcheted up the sense of fear
and practical impact of thestakes of some of these
(34:12):
conversations.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I totally agree.
It just feels different,definitely.
And then, and then for somethat are, you know, some didn't
want to come back, they got soused to, you know, sitting on
their couch and their PJs, andthen it's like, well, why would
you know, do I really need to bein physical Communion and
(34:34):
fellowship with those peoplewhen I can just watch it on TV?
And so it definitely haschanged, changed things.
So one last question for you,for, for those on either side
you know, either political partyor wherever they land, if, if
they're having someone that isin their life, that they're
(34:56):
close to and I know people on,you know, in this- yeah that
that they disagree with, or ormaybe they agree with, but
they're going to that superextreme.
You know, I can, I can think of,of someone in my life and it's
like, okay, your conspiracytheory.
You know you may be right, youprobably are right.
I thought you were running onyour right, you know so yes.
(35:18):
But like, where's the joy youget?
You know, turn the news off atsome point.
You know you have to.
Where's your fruit if you'respending all your time
researching this?
Even if there's some truths inthere, you know you could your
waste in time that could be onthe ground making a real
difference.
Or you know Where's the joy,where's that?
So speak.
(35:39):
And there's, you know, on theother side of things, the same
way.
So speak to those people thathave someone in their life that
they mainly agree with, butthey're going a little extreme.
And and how, how do you savethose relationships or how do
you balance that out If it's tootime-consuming and too
(36:00):
overwhelming on both sides ofthose?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
That's great, excellent, yeah, so most of the
book is really trying to givepractical resources along these
lines of what you're asking.
So a couple areas, one that Ifocus on in chapters four and
five, is what I call the 10political commandments, which we
used at our church in the lastelection season.
So this, like in a church or asmall group, even a family or
whatever you know, to be able togo hey, these are 10 things we
(36:25):
want to commit to in thisupcoming election season in
terms of our posture.
So we jokingly called these the10 political commandments
because we didn't want them tobe confused with the actual 10
commandments.
But when these are things Godcommands in scripture, so we do
want to take them seriously, andso these weren't about what
(36:49):
opinions to hold, but ratherabout how to hold them well.
And so these were, you know,just the first one was worship I
commit my allegiance to KingJesus over all idols and
ideologies.
The second one was love ofneighbor I commit to
participating in civic life as ameans of loving and serving my
neighbor rather than justserving my own interests.
(37:09):
And then there were other ones,like the image of God.
I'm a people of wisdom,fruitful speech, political
justice, peacemaking, removingthe law, humble learning, loving
enemies.
But I think one resource andthese are available as a free
download on my website If youwant to go there it's called a
Christian political commitment.
One resource is to kind ofprepare yourself and even a
(37:30):
small group or church or friendsor others or family going hey,
this is, this is how theguidelines God gives us for how
we want to prepare to enter intothis.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
And even if others violate that.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
We're going to stick to these.
You know we're going to stick toJesus even if others don't.
That's not being one thing, butanother thing that I look at is
what I call formationalpractices for a polarized world,
which is learning to see someof the things that we might take
for granted as readingscripture, as being in community
with other people in our church, like face to face community in
(38:02):
our church.
You know you mentioned how muchwe then pulled apart into
online.
Maybe I'll just stick out, butI show a lot of research on
actually being involved in anactual church body.
You know fellowship has adramatic impact on how we
actually gauge maturity in theseareas.
But I look, for example, atreading.
(38:23):
Scripture is one example.
You know that we might notthink of that as something that
shapes us politically, but itdoes.
You know that there's actuallyGod's story for the world
contrasts with a lot of thecompeting stories at play.
So talking about how man, thereligion of progress, is telling
a certain story about the world, the religion of responsibility
(38:47):
and of identity, of security,those religions at play right
now are telling a certain storyabout the world that can run in
some dangerous directions, andyet God's story provides a
counter narrative, a counterstory that actually shapes and
forms us to be attuned toresisting some of the idolatrous
stories of our age Community.
You know, being in a smallgroup, being in connection and
(39:10):
staying connected and committedwith people who see the world
differently, perhaps like that,actually has a formative impact
on our lives.
Rather weird.
Prayer I look at creativepractices of prayer.
I've got a friend who prays.
You know, when you think ofyour kingdom, come God, you will
be done and Earth is heaven.
The Lord's prayer.
A friend of mine takes newsheadlines he sees and he
(39:34):
creatively reimagines what God'skingdom looked like breaking
into this area.
So, for example, when he sawthe bombings in Syria a while
back, he began to pray thatAleppo in Syria would become
like the ultimate vacationdestination where people could
nap during the day in thestreets, that people could stay
out late dancing, because ofjust the safety and peace and
(39:55):
security, you know.
But he can imagine man I'mseeing on Earth right now.
It looks like this horrendous,but imagine.
Let his imagination be fuel.
God, I want to pray towardsyour kingdom breaking in.
I look at ways to actually useyour ballot as a catalyst for
prayer.
How to pray we, you know, notjust pray.
(40:16):
God, make my candidate win, youknow.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Actually pray creatively.
You know, we pray for our dailybread, but do we pray for the
farmers who are growing thatbread and the truckers who are
delivered to the grocery store?
The Department ofTransportation who's helping to,
you know, facilitate all thatso that we have the abundance
that we have right now.
Similar areas with medicine ordifferent areas.
(40:40):
Yeah, so emboldening and kindof catalyzing our prayer of life
, and I think doing things likethis gathering regularly I'm
sure you know that that forms usunder Christ, our ultimate King
, you know and doing thesepractices regularly actually is
going to shape and form us sothat we step into that
conversation with the person whosees the world differently.
(41:00):
And maybe they're immature,maybe they're small-minded,
maybe they're caricaturing us,maybe they're demonizing us, but
I think we're going to have thefortitude and strength then to
be able to go into thatconversation and not let it
rattle us not, let us shake usnot, let us turn us into
fighting fire with fire, youknow not becoming immature in
response, but we can be themature person who kind of raises
(41:22):
the bar in the conversationrather than kind of sinking into
the lowest common denominatorof how people around us might be
.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Wouldn't that be wonderful in this in the next
few months.
Right, that would be fabulousGoodness Well.
I'm so glad you came on today.
Tell our friends here onlinewhere they can find you.
You know social media wherethey can find this book.
Tell us, tell us where to findyou.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Thank you.
Yes, my website,joshwellrimebutlercom Social
media.
I'm most active on Instagramand some on Facebook, so it's a
Joshua Butler PDX.
It's my handle there, JoshuaButler PDX, and yeah, would love
to interact with people.
Check out the book.
It's available wherever Amazon,wherever books are sold.
(42:08):
I've got a whole list ofretailers on the book page on my
website, if you check that out.
But yeah, if folks check it out, I would love to hear what you
think, so feel free to read ityes and I share your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
I love, love, love your title Party Crashers.
How Jesus Disrupts Politics asusual, and Redeems Are Partisan
Divide.
My goodness, could there be abetter title?
There couldn't be.
I mean, I love it because it'sjust so timely and needed so
well.
Thank you for coming on and wewill add all of those links into
our show notes for those of youthat are looking to find him
(42:42):
online.
So thanks for coming today.
Thank you for joining us todayin this episode of Gracefield
Grit.
I know that your time isvaluable and I truly appreciate
you being here.
I hope it was helpful and thatyou'll share it with a friend.
In order to schedule amazingguests on our show, we could use
some good reviews.
So if you've enjoyed thisepisode, I'd be honored if you
(43:04):
could head over to the podcastapp on your phone, tap the album
art for the Gracefield Gritpodcast, scroll down to the
bottom of the page and write areview.
I'm looking forward to our nextepisode and I hope you'll join
us again.
Blessings to you today, friend,as you live out your own
Gracefield Grit.
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