What happens when a leader's world completely falls apart? When the carefully constructed life you've built suddenly crumbles beneath you? Dawn Mann Sanders knows this territory intimately. After experiencing three miscarriages and the sudden death of her husband within a single year, Dawn found herself in an uncharted wilderness no leadership manual had prepared her for.
This powerful conversation unveils the rarely discussed intersection of personal devastation and leadership responsibility. Dawn, a spiritual architect and associate minister, shares how losing her husband and unborn children didn't just represent the loss of loved ones—it represented the loss of her future, identity, and the dreams she had carefully nurtured. For women in leadership positions, these profound disruptions create unique challenges as they navigate their grief while maintaining their responsibilities to lead others.
Drawing from Genesis, Dawn reveals how she discovered a framework for rebuilding by studying the creation story. She found parallels between the formlessness and void described at the beginning of creation and her own experience of emptiness after loss. This biblical foundation provided her with practical steps: remaining connected to God, recognizing that parts of her identity remained intact even when others were lost, and creating steady flows of nourishment in her life.
Dawn challenges several misconceptions leaders often hold about healing and restoration. She dismantles the notion that if we do everything "right," we can avoid setbacks or ensure they're temporary. Using examples from Adam and Eve in paradise to Job's blameless character, she shows how even perfect circumstances or righteousness don't exempt us from profound disruption. She also emphasizes that authenticity matters more than facades—contrary to what many leaders fear, people connect more deeply with leaders who acknowledge their struggles while working through them.
Ready to rebuild after your own devastation? Dawn's forthcoming book "When Your World Ends" and her new podcast "Rebuilding Your Life" provide resources for moving from shell-shocked to spirit-sheltered. Connect with Dawn at DawnMannSanders.com or join her Creative Restoration Movement for ongoing support in your rebuilding journey.
Connect with Dawn Online:
Instagram: @dawnmannsanders
Facebook: Dawn Mann Sanders
Threads: @dawnmannsanders
X (Twitter): @DawnMannSanders
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dawnmannsanders
Get the book on Amazon!
Please subscribe to our mailing list to stay connected and get updates! Thanks for listening to the Graced to Lead Podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Belinda Gaston (00:08):
Welcome to the Graced to Lead podcast.
I'm Belinda Gaston, your host,and listen.
Today we have an amazingconversation with a very special
woman, and so I want to startby introducing her and then I
will welcome her to the show.
On our show today we have DawnMann Sanders, and she's a
(00:32):
spiritual architect, author,bible teacher, associate
minister at First Baptist Churchof Glen Arden International in
Maryland.
She blends Genesis-shapedblueprints with reflective
practices and helps peoplerebuild rhythms after
devastating loss, soul-crushingdisappointment and major life
(00:55):
disruptions.
Her debut book, when your WorldEnds, and her forthcoming
podcast ends and her forthcomingpodcast Rebuilding your Life
illuminates God's creativeprocess so people can move from
shell-shocked tospirit-sheltered, and she lives
what she preaches.
Y'all and I am excited aboutthis conversation.
(01:18):
Can you do me a favor andwelcome Dawn Mann-Sanders to the
show?
Welcome Dawn.
Dawn Mann Sanders (01:27):
Hello Belinda , it is a pleasure to be here.
Belinda Gaston (01:31):
Thank you so much, and so one of the reasons
I believe that really thisconversation is necessary is
because we're at a time wherewomen who lead are having to
face difficult situations.
As they lead right, they areleading in places where they've
experienced loss, where they'veexperienced grief, where life
(01:55):
situations have happened and theresponsibility to lead is still
there.
But there are things that arehappening with women that are
leading that they need to dealwith, and I think you are the
perfect person for thisconversation.
So, to help our listeners, canyou start by just telling us a
little bit about your personalstory and how you got into this
(02:19):
space?
Dawn Mann Sanders (02:21):
Yeah.
So after what I call a seriesof unproductive relationships,
unfruitful relationships itwasn't necessarily that the guy
was terrible, it just wasn't agood fit and some of them
painful relationships,relationships I finally met and
(02:48):
married.
What several people in my lifesaid was the one and he blessed
me to just have the first yearourselves.
Several of our friends, when wegot married, after they got
married, got pregnant that firstyear and even though we didn't
meet each other until late inlife we didn't start courting
until we were 40 years old andwe both wanted to have a family.
(03:11):
He Graced me to have that firstyear where we weren't, we
wouldn't try, we wouldn't doanything to, you know, being
late in life too.
We didn't want to risk, youknow, doing anything to stop it
and then not being able to havea family.
But we didn't do.
We risk, you know, doinganything to stop it and then not
being able to have a family.
But we didn't do, we weren'ttrying.
And then God Graced us to notbe pregnant that first year.
(03:32):
But my husband, you know on ouranniversary, I told him we can
start on our anniversary trying,and so over that next year, I
experienced what I believe to bethree miscarriages.
I say two and document two inthe book, because I was able to
test and have the proof that Iwas pregnant twice, but I
(03:53):
believe I was pregnant the firsttime and, before I could test,
lost that child and over thecourse of the next year, like I
said, I had three miscarriages,and the third miscarriage I had
six weeks before my husband'sunexpected sudden death, and so
(04:13):
I lost what I felt like was mywhole family in the course of a
year.
With it, I felt like I'd lostmy future as well, because, as
anyone who has experienced lossknows, you don't just lose the
person, you lose the hopes anddreams tied to that person.
And with the loss of my husbandso late in life, I believe I
(04:37):
lost the opportunity to have myown family from my body.
And so, yeah, I was devastated,and that's what led to me
writing my book and starting myministry helping people rebuild
their lives after, like you said, devastating loss, major life
disruptions and soul-crushingdisappointments.
Belinda Gaston (05:01):
Thank you for sharing that, and I think that
when people hear stories likeyours, it's hard to even imagine
how you keep going Right, howdo you even get through one
miscarriage, let alone twoothers, and then the loss of
your husband, and so we'regrateful that you're sharing
(05:24):
your story.
I'm interested in how you beganto move forward.
How did you begin to sense Godleading you to rebuild?
How did you get from that placeto where you are?
Dawn Mann Sanders (05:39):
Thank you, belinda, for asking that
question and phrasing it the wayyou did.
About rebuilding, first, I wantto say you're right, it is
devastating.
I don't want to, in any way,shape or form, minimize any of
my pain or anyone else's pain.
What I will say is, because Iwas what I call a late in life
(06:01):
mom, because I was pregnant, andI believe life begins at
conception what I will say is Iwas happy that I got pregnant.
I used to celebrate my cycleevery month.
I know that's rare to hear.
After I turned 35, I startedcelebrating my cycle because it
(06:22):
was another sign to me that Ihad an opportunity to have a
family, and so I startedtreating it that way and
receiving it that way.
So the fact that I got pregnantwas just, and that's what I
prayed for.
And you know they say becareful what you ask for.
And the Bible says ask not.
(06:43):
You have not because you asknot.
I didn't think at that timethat praying for the ability to
get pregnant was different thanpraying to have a baby, and it's
different.
And so after my firstmiscarriage, though I was very
thankful to have gotten pregnant, my prayers changed and I
(07:06):
started praying to have ahealthy baby.
Well, you know the story Ididn't have a healthy baby.
After the second miscarriage,that one rocked me, the first
one.
I was like, oh, I can getpregnant.
And I also felt like though ithurt.
Like I said, I don't want tominimize my pain, and I also
felt like though it hurt.
Like I said, I don't want tominimize my pain.
That miscarriage was not, youknow, unknown and I didn't think
(07:30):
I was special.
Why would I not?
You know, why would God shieldme from one miscarriage?
Now, I did question why hedidn't shield me from two and
three.
I'll be honest about that,right.
Belinda Gaston (07:42):
What is?
Dawn Mann Sanders (07:42):
going on.
I thought this was the kind ofhousehold, the kind of family
that you would want, because wewere going to raise up kingdom
kids, right.
So I was my husband and I myhusband was a youth minister and
we were both like what is goingon?
And I started questioning mybody and was very devastated
(08:05):
with those other two and thethird one on my husband's
birthday.
I had what I call a violentmiscarriage because the other
ones and I'm just going to usethe word violent, we don't need
to go any further than any moregraphic than that.
But here I was, it was soviolent.
He took me to the emergencyroom.
(08:26):
We thought I was dying becauseof this miscarriage.
I want to mention, because yousaid, how do you get past it?
And I share in the book abouthow, after my husband died
because as long as he was aliveI still had hope for a family
when he died I very much wantedto go with him.
(08:48):
I felt like God made twodecisions that day.
He didn't just decide to takemy husband, he decided to leave
me and even though people weresaying God has more for you, I
was like, yeah, I'm not signingup for that.
I didn't sign up for this.
I'm good.
(09:10):
I started learning about heaven,because I wanted to know what
my husband's life was like.
And the more I learned aboutheaven, the more I was like why
am I?
Why do I want to stay here?
So I kept praying.
I was praying that God wouldtake me too, and he didn't.
So when you say what led to merebuilding, I want to set the
stage for what I was rebuildingfrom.
(09:31):
And so I was praying every dayGod take you know.
I would go to bed every nightasking God to take me, and every
morning I was waking up and Iwas like okay, after a while I'm
like OK, I'm an intelligenthuman being.
I'm sensing that your answer isno, at least for this season.
(09:52):
Right, because we will allsurely die, but not necessarily
today.
And so I started to pick upthat, ok, I'm going to be here,
pick up, but okay, I'm going tobe here.
And then I started thinking tomyself well, I cannot, I cannot
(10:15):
continue to hurt, because thisis just too much.
When you think you're going togo that night, you can endure
that day's pain, but to endurethat day's pain, the same level
of pain, every single day, I waslike, okay, again, I didn't
sign up for this I do since youare waking me up and I'm sensing
you saying, because I had saidthis part of my life was I was
living through the end of theworld as I knew it Well, and
(10:39):
that's what I and I sensed thatGod went yeah, and I want you to
live through the end of theworld as you know it Right.
And so that's what led to merecognizing that God was saying
I want, I kept you because Iwant you to live.
I don't want you to just exist,I don't want you to just
(11:00):
survive, I want you to justsurvive, I want you to live.
You have walked in the land ofthe dead long enough.
Turn and start living again.
And so I was like, okay, I needto start living again, and
there are a lot of great booksout there.
(11:22):
I can recommend a few ongrieving and there are a lot of
great books out there.
I can recommend a few ongrieving.
Right.
I did not find books onrebuilding and I found that
they're different.
When you're grieving, you're inone spot and what I realized is
(11:46):
, if there's any directionyou're going in, it's inward,
it's going deeper.
That's a different directionthan forward, and when you're
moving in a different direction,you need different skills and
(12:08):
tactics.
I also came to understand thatthe structures, the resources,
the insights, even myrelationship with God since this
is a Christian podcast would bedifferent in my new season than
it was in my current season,and so I had to develop these
(12:31):
new things.
And I'm gonna tell yousomething, since this is a
podcast for leaders and I'm soexcited about the fact that it's
a podcast for leaders right, asleaders, we get to certain
levels and we think certainthings are behind us.
In fact, the American culturekind of sells us a bill of goods
(12:51):
when we're on the path to theAmerican dream.
Get your education check, buy ahouse check.
Get your education check, buy ahouse check.
Find your spouse check, buildyour career check, and not
necessarily in this order.
But you have a bill of goodsand you start checking things
off Build wealth check.
Get your first six figure jobcheck right.
(13:14):
You just start, you know, buildit.
Get these titles check.
Travel check right.
You just start checking thesethings off your and you think to
yourself oh well, I've had asix-figure income, I'm never
going to have to go back to thefive-figure income because we're
moving forward.
We don't think we're going tohave, we're going to get these
(13:36):
setbacks that are going to setus so far back.
And now I'm going to take it tothe spiritual right.
The way I understood it as aminister was I never expected
for it to get this dark.
After standing in the lightthat just didn't compute.
(14:01):
My brain was like what?
How can it be this dark?
And it's this dark because thetools and the strategies and the
processes and the systems thatI had spent 25 years building I
had spent 25 years as a softwaretester.
(14:23):
I was at the pinnacle ofsoftware testing.
When I would interview people,I'd be like I don't need to
practice.
I've been doing this thing for25 years Now.
All of a sudden it's different.
And not only was it differentspiritually because I was at the
pinnacle of being a softwaretester.
(14:45):
I was hitting a ceiling in mysalary.
Remember, we're sitting heregoing.
Oh, we're going to move forward.
Belinda Gaston (14:50):
And I was like wait a minute.
Dawn Mann Sanders (14:51):
What is this?
1% pay raise?
What kind of fresh crazy isthis?
So I pivoted to become a datascientist, using all the skills
that I had as a software tester.
So I was rebuilding in everyarea of my life the reason I
mention this and in every areaof my life I needed new things
(15:15):
and one of the things I realizedthat I needed that I didn't
expect, you know, I had gottennew jobs before.
I hadn't changed careers.
I mean 25 years I hadn'tchanged careers, but I had
gotten new jobs before.
I always used the same network.
When you pivot and not only didI pivot to data science right,
(15:35):
I'm an author.
That's a huge pivot.
Data science isn't a huge pivot.
I'm using all the skills that Ihave as a tester the same
degree, everything.
That's why I chose it.
I didn't have to go back toschool or anything to be a data
scientist.
I didn't have to go back toschool, in the sense of
university, to become an author.
But I knew nothing about writinga book and the people I knew
(15:57):
hadn't written books.
They wrote code, but theydidn't write books.
So I needed a whole new networkof people.
So when I say everything waschanging, everything changed and
how I was able to rebuild, Irecognized that I was in a
(16:21):
different season, that I was notgoing to be able to stay in
that previous season because Iwas not going to be able to
endure that pain.
And in order to go into thisnew season and be successful
because we're leaders, we craveand expect, at this point,
success In order for me tosucceed, I'm going to need some
(16:46):
new skills soft skills if nothard skills, or vice versa.
Belinda Gaston (16:56):
I needed a little of both.
Wow, dawn, there are a coupleof things that you said that I
don't want us to skip past, andthe first is that you recognize
that the season that you were inwas shifting, that God wanted
you to shift.
Because you talked about wakingup, it's like, oh, I'm still
here, okay, I have to live.
And so recognizing that seasonshift and recognizing that you
(17:17):
need strategy for those seasons,I think is sometimes where
people get stuck.
People get stuck in old seasons, and that's either good or bad.
One of the things I heard yousay was you talked about in your
leadership, how you would hit aceiling at the same time, and
that's a choice.
(17:38):
And so, listeners, I want toencourage you to really think
about the season you are in.
Are you in a season whereyou're supposed to be in,
meaning the season that Godwants you in to operate in your
leadership, or are you in aseason that you're supposed to
move from from?
(18:02):
So that's a question for you tothink about, as you're
listening to Dawn talk.
So the other thing, dawn, thatyou talked about is how moving
into these new seasons requirednew things.
It required new networks foryou, it required new skills, new
things, and so I want to talkabout this, and you've outlined
some things in your book, but Iwant to talk about this one
specifically, and you'venavigated that.
I'd like for you to share oneor two things that helped you to
(18:25):
begin to move.
Dawn Mann Sanders (18:26):
Actually we're talking about some of the
stuff in my book, so this isworks real well I talk about in
my book.
My book is a deep dive into thecreation story in Genesis 1.
And as I was studying Genesis 1, just for myself, personally
wasn't expecting it to become abook, was just, you know, I'm an
(18:47):
associate minister, so I studythe Bible from time to time.
And so I was studying, god tookme back to the beginning, right
, and he said study Genesis.
And I didn't even think aboutit being the beginning at that
moment.
I just was studying Genesis.
And so the very first twoverses in the New King James
read in the beginning Godcreated the heavens and the
(19:10):
earth, and the earth was withoutform, void, and darkness was
over the face of the deep andthe spirit of God was hovering
over the face of the waters.
The face of the deep and thespirit of God was hovering over
the face of the waters.
Well, belinda, I didn't getpast verse two before I was
struck by that descriptionbecause I dug deeper.
(19:33):
Formless means more than justshapeless.
It means unproductive, and whenwe're stuck and that's the
problem that leaders are havingit's like wait a minute.
Being unproductive is foreignto us.
We lead other people in theirproductivity.
How is it that we arestruggling?
(19:56):
It is such a struggle becauseit's counter, it's
counterintuitive, it's counterto our nature.
We, we're the proverbial fishout of water, proverbial going
what the season just, and that'swhat throws us, is because the
(20:16):
strengths that we've been given,the gifts that we've been given
, the gifts that we've beengiven, the talents, the skills,
the experiences, everything thatmakes us us is rebelling,
because we're like wait a minute, this, this, how?
Because many of us are naturalborn leaders, we've been leading
(20:38):
from the cradle.
Many of us are natural bornleaders.
We've been leading from thecradle.
In fact, our parents saidthings like oh, there's 13 going
on 30, because we have beendoing this from jump, and now
we're finding ourselves in aplace where we can't even lead
ourselves, let alone otherpeople, and it feels very
(21:03):
uncomfortable.
We feel very much not ourselves.
And if we can't be ourselves,because everything comes from
who we are, I struggled withwhat I was even calling myself
after my husband died, because,you know, people immediately
start considering calling you awidow.
People were like, oh, as aminister.
They were like, oh, you canminister to widows.
And I was like, yeah, no, I'mnot feeling that Widow.
Who is that person?
(21:23):
That word was foreign to me.
I was Reggie's wife and I'donly been married to him two
years.
I had just gotten comfortablewith being his wife and now
people were calling me his widowand telling me I can minister
to strangers, I'm like, andtelling me I can minister to
strangers, I'm like, and aboutsomething I don't even know.
And I started thinking aboutthis.
(21:45):
Right, you know, when we'regrowing up, there's a
progression right where we gaincertain knowledge.
As we go on, we decide againpart of the bill of goods in
America that most leaders, atleast in America, kind of go
through.
We pick up certain skills inhigh school, we go on to college
(22:07):
, right, or trade school orwhatever it is.
We get training and we grow inour identity because of this
training.
We don't necessarily callourselves even leaders at first,
but because we're natural bornleaders, we're out here leading
and we develop confidence inthis act of leading because
we're just doing it.
(22:28):
And as we get this confidence,then we say oh.
When someone says, oh, you're aleader, we stop and we go, oh,
they're right, and then weembrace calling ourselves a
leader.
So it begins with our identityand who we are.
And if you're a leader, you dowhat leaders do.
(22:51):
In fact, you started going oh,I'm a leader.
So then you start jumping.
You know you were jumping outthere before, but you might've
learned through life going oh, Imight need to be careful about
how I.
You know you were jumping outthere before, but you might have
learned through life going oh,I might need to be careful about
how I.
But then you, because you havethis confidence, you're like oh
no, I'm a leader, so I'm OKjumping out there.
Another way of looking at it isa student.
You're taught by your parentsor whoever's raising you that
(23:14):
students go to school.
You're taught by your teachersthat students listen and
students read and students studyand students take tests, and so
you learn to do these things.
You develop confidence in doingthese things, and those are the
(23:37):
things you do when you Learn tobe.
I told you I was a softwaretest engineer when I learned
what it was.
I was first a developer.
I learned how to write code incollege and I started to call
myself a programmer because Igot confidence in doing that and
they taught me in school whatprogrammers do, and so I did
that widow.
I even learned in church how tobe a wife.
(24:00):
They teach you how to be a wife.
They have you know.
In women's ministry they teachwomen how to be a wife.
In men's ministry they teachmen how to be a husband.
They teach parents how to beparents.
You get this training?
Who teaches you how to be awidow?
Yeah, who teaches you to be amotherless mother?
(24:24):
Not a motherless, a childlessmother.
In fact, there's not even aword in the English language for
such an entity.
Right?
We have orphans who don't haveparents.
We have widows who don't havehusbands, right?
What is the word for a parentwho has no children?
It's unnatural.
That's why we don't have a word, and because it's unnatural we
(24:53):
don't teach people how to do it.
So we're thrown into thesesituations that we have not been
prepared for.
Basically, going, wait a minute, what am I supposed to do?
Well, the first thing you needto do is figure out who you are,
and I know that's a bigquestion because I wrestled with
it for years after my husbanddied.
Who am I?
(25:15):
But again, I'm loving the fact.
Not only is this a podcast forleaders, but it's a podcast for
Christian leaders.
There was a part of my identitythat, though I lost my husband,
that I did not lose.
I was still Cliff and Eloise'schild, even though I was
Reggie's wife, and I'm no longerReggie's wife.
(25:36):
I can lose that, even though myfather passed away before
Reggie did, I'm still Cliff'schild.
I'm still Eloise's child.
So as Christians, we're stillGod's child, we're still Jesus's
brother, we are still the HolySpirit's student.
So there are aspects of ouridentity that are still intact,
(25:59):
and that is.
The joy that I had in having aclean slate is that I wasn't
starting over from scratch,though it felt like it that
there were parts of me that werestill there and I needed to
lean into the parts that werestill there.
I needed to hold on to them,and that's why the first step in
(26:23):
my book is remain connected.
And remain connected to God isbecause God had not gone
anywhere.
I had gone somewhere emotionallyand mentally, because I had
lost who I was, but God hadnever stopped calling me his
child.
I am still a child of God.
(26:48):
No matter what else happens tome, no matter who else comes and
goes from my life, no matterwhere else I find myself, I am
never outside of his reach.
And so it begins with who weare, and we are his.
Belinda Gaston (27:14):
I believe that there's someone listening right
now who's like I hear you, dawn,I hear you, I'm a believer.
This is hard, this is reallyhard, and why would God even
allow something like this tohappen at this time in my life,
when everything seemed to be solined up?
(27:37):
I'm praying, I'm serving, I'mdoing all the things I'm leading
.
Well, why, now?
What would you say to thatwoman?
Dawn Mann Sanders (27:48):
Number one.
I'd honor your pain becausesuffering is real and suffering
is painful.
So I'm not in any way, shape orform, going to try to move you
from the thought that this hurtsor it's painful.
I'm going to take you toDeuteronomy.
(28:08):
The Lord said this assignmentthat I have given you.
It's not too hard, nor beyondyour reach.
God has empowered you to makeit through and, as they say, if
(28:31):
you're going through hell, don'tstop Right.
Do not make hell your home,hell your home.
Keep on moving so you can getthrough.
And I'm not telling you to rushyour grief when I say keep on
moving, because grief is part ofthe process and you need to
(28:51):
grieve and as leaders, we liketo bypass the grieving because,
like I said, your direction isinward, your direction is deep
and we want to move forward.
We're naturally wound to moveforward because you can't lead
anyone anywhere if you're notmoving and going anywhere.
But you need to go inward sothat you can figure out where
(29:18):
you're going.
You need to know where you are.
You cannot chart and I know Idon't need to explain this.
I can just say this becauseleaders understand this you
cannot get from point A to pointB if you do not know where
point A is.
We wake up one morning andwe're like where am I and how
(29:38):
did I get here?
Well then you don't know whereyou are.
You need to figure out point A.
Yeah, we all know where point Bis.
It's better that's point B,better than where we are.
But we cannot get to point Buntil we deal with point A.
Okay, and as much as we want tobypass it, go around it, go
(30:04):
over it, all of the things wemust go through it.
It's like the common cold.
You remember how we used to goto the doctor?
We don't go now because we know, again, as leaders, we know we
go.
Don't have a fever, right,don't have.
You know, it's not flu, it'snot COVID, it's not something
(30:26):
they can do something about.
We need to drink fluids and getplenty of rest.
We need to take care ofourselves.
That is the activity when you'resick and when you're healing.
You are sick.
I know we don't want to hearthat as leaders, but you're
experiencing pain.
And what is pain?
(30:47):
But a sign of sickness, a signof injury and a sign that you
need to do what, and you knowwhat to do to heal.
You know you need to rest offluids, and I keep saying that
(31:08):
because fluid in the Bible is ametaphor for God, water in all
its forms metaphor for God.
So you need to rest, somethingwe as leaders struggle with,
again against our nature, but wealso those of us who have
really excelled have learnedthat we work best when we rest,
and this is an extended seasonof rest.
(31:30):
So clear your schedule and doyou, boo.
Belinda Gaston (31:42):
That's great advice.
Dawn Mann Sanders (31:43):
I think that as leaders, oftentimes we don't
have these conversations, andI'm grateful that we're talking
about this now we want to havethe conversation about how to
move forward and we are havingthe conversation about moving
forward because, again, youcan't try to pass the point
between a and b until we know a.
But we want to just focus on B,but that's why we don't have
(32:05):
the conversation, belinda.
Belinda Gaston (32:07):
Yeah, and I think those uncomfortable
conversations are necessary.
So, dawn, you've shared with usyour journey.
You talked about giving somereally good insight to people
who, leaders, who might be inthe situation that you just came
in, and I think that there's alot of confusion and some
(32:30):
misperceptions about the wholeprocess of healing.
Right, and so can you tell usone of the biggest
misconceptions that women wholead have about healing or
starting over?
Dawn Mann Sanders (32:51):
Well, I think the first one that we, like I
said, as women, as leaders, thefirst misconception we have is
that if we do everything right,if we check all the boxes, that
we're going to keep goingforward.
But God is clear.
Behold, I do a new thing.
I recently heard a young pastorand I think his name is Pointer
(33:18):
in Arkansas, and he preachedabout how God doesn't go
backward.
And I really thought about this.
Right, because often in theBible it says remember, but it
always says remember with thegoal of moving forward, not to
move into the past, always tomove forward.
So, yeah, we're not going tostay where we are forever.
(33:43):
We reach this pinnacle and wethink, you know, we have this
idea that we've arrived.
That's one of the things.
The misconceptions is that oneday you will arrive and if you
arrive somewhere, you're notgoing back.
And what I mean by going backhave setbacks because I've done
the things.
(34:03):
Well, because, let's just again, we're in Genesis right Now.
My book deep dives into Genesisone, but let's visit Genesis two
for a moment.
My husband and I, when we werecourting, we studied Genesis two
because we wanted to study thefirst couple.
Well, again, we didn't get far.
(34:23):
We get to chapter three of thestory, and along comes the
serpent who basically just turnseverything upside down.
And so Adam and Eve were in thegarden of Eden, which is
paradise, a garden that Godplanted.
(34:47):
He didn't just let stuff growwild like in the wilderness.
Right God hand chose everythingthat was placed in the garden.
It was the perfect environmentfor the pinnacle of his creation
man and woman, adam and Eve.
Man and woman, adam and Eve.
(35:07):
And so they're in paradise, andalong comes this serpent that
convinces Eve that it can getbetter than this.
Now, ain't that a misconception?
Belinda Gaston (35:14):
Yes.
Dawn Mann Sanders (35:14):
Right there You're asking if misconception's
right.
It can get better than this,than what you're experiencing,
which is a problem because wedon't savor where we are,
because we're always trying toget the next thing Right, and
that's what grieving is about,because once it's gone, then we
hurt over it.
It's like we had this thingthat we didn't necessarily
(35:35):
appreciate the way we shouldhave when we had it, but now
that it's gone we're hurtingover it.
Belinda Gaston (35:42):
Right.
Dawn Mann Sanders (35:43):
But back to Adam and Eve.
They had been doing up untilthis point they've been doing
everything right right Becausethey were in paradise.
And now they mess up.
So my whole point with this isyou can be doing everything
quote, unquote right and havetrials and tribulations come
(36:06):
into your life.
They don't come into your lifebecause you messed up.
In fact, in the book I talkabout how in the Bible it talks
about, I want to say, in Isaiah,maybe in Revelation, I can't
remember exactly where right now, but in the Bible God talks
about creating a new heaven anda new earth.
Again change God's going togive us this goodness right, and
(36:33):
in this new place we're notgoing to remember our sins.
And so I talk about how youmight feel like you caused your
troubles, like Adam and Eveultimately did Right At first,
though they hadn't done anythingwrong until they did, but Job
did nothing.
It says Job was blameless andupright.
(36:55):
So whether you feel like youmade a mistake or not,
challenges and trouble will comeyour way.
So that's a misconception thatI can do it all right and I can
do that to protect myself.
As Christians, it's wrongthinking to protect ourselves.
(37:19):
The person who protects us isGod.
Belinda Gaston (37:28):
Thank you, dawn.
I'm going to ask one lastquestion of you.
I really want to leavelisteners with some tangible
steps, and one of them you'vealready identified.
I really love the idea of usunderstanding what point A is.
Where are you right now?
And being honest with yourselfabout that, because a lot of
(37:49):
times, as leaders, we are usedto putting up the facade to lead
well right, we carry thingsright, and so what happens is,
if you have things happeninginternally, then you just you
hide it and you're good.
You can come up with thephrases I think they call it the
spin Right, you know, and sothat's, I think, an amazing tip,
(38:11):
but other simple steps that youwould share.
Dawn Mann Sanders (38:14):
OK.
So, belinda, a moment ago yousaid that we, as Christian
leaders, christian women, we putup this facade Right Like we
have it all together.
Christian leaders, Christianwomen, we put up this facade
right Like we have it alltogether.
And I get it, because you needthe people to believe in you.
Right, they're not going tofollow you if they don't believe
in you.
But what I learned on myjourney is that people will
(38:39):
actually believe in you morewhen you're authentic, believe
in you more when you'reauthentic.
When God first dropped it in myspirit to share my journey, I
was like, yeah, no, I'm not theone God, I was very much Moses,
right, and I'm not the one.
And the reason I wasn't the one.
(38:59):
I told God this.
I said God because I'm going totell the truth.
I'm going to tell the truthabout how it hurts.
I'm not going to sugarcoat thatbecause I don't think it's
going to help people to thinkthat it doesn't hurt.
Then they're hurting andthey're wondering what's wrong
(39:23):
with me Rather than healing.
Right, because that's not goingto help them heal.
I was also concerned.
I was scared, because I waslike people are going to see the
real me.
Right Before they sinned, adamand Eve were naked and unafraid.
(39:45):
I was fearful to show people mypain.
I hurt so much, belinda, andI'm not afraid now, so I'm going
to say it I hurt so much, Ithought I lost my faith.
That's how the devil attackedme and I was like how can I,
minister, bring people to Christ?
How can I I'm a leader, right,that's what minister I lead
people, that's the phrase theyeven use Lead people to Christ.
(40:14):
How can I lead people to Christ?
And I'm questioning if I'mthere anymore.
So how can I lead people?
And people need to hear that.
Leaders struggle, but they workthrough it.
That struggle isn't the end.
It's part of the journey we'releading people on, because there
(40:38):
are going to be struggles onevery journey.
And if we don't show peoplewhen we're moving ahead and the
bumps happen, and all they see,you is hey, oh, we just moving
through and they're like wait aminute, this is a bumpy ride.
This is a bumpy ride, I'm onbumps, but you just hey, oh, and
(41:01):
you don't experience any bumpsor you go oh, that bump was
nothing, let's just stay focused.
And they're like my focus iseverywhere, but on this thing.
That's not honest and it's nothelpful and I'm going to say one
other thing, specifically again, because of our culture and I
(41:24):
don't think this is just true ofAmerica.
When I say our culture, I meanas people.
I think the world, butdefinitely America, is going
through this post truth erawhere we're celebrating people
for being dishonest.
We're following people who areregularly dishonest and you know
(41:50):
they're dishonest.
You know what they're tellingyou isn't true, because you, you
like, you're sitting up heregoing.
I know white is white and blackis black and this rain is wet.
I know rain is wet and you'retrying to tell me rain is dry,
rain is wet.
And you're trying to tell merain is dry, right, and we sit
up here and we go because itsounds good, because it's the
America we want, we're listeningand we're following and because
(42:15):
we don't like what other peopleare saying, we don't like the
truth of what's being said.
But how can we be Christianleaders, how can we be Christian
post-truth leaders?
That doesn't even follow?
(42:37):
You can't be Christian andpost-truth.
And where does all of our faithbegin Again, if I can't lead
people to Jesus, if I'mstruggling with my own
relationship with Jesus?
So we have to be honest firstwith ourselves and then be
(42:59):
honest with other people so thatpeople understand that this
isn't easy.
But, like I said, it's not toohard.
And I'm going to go back toGenesis and wrap this up.
When, in the Genesis story, godblessed us to be fruitful,
(43:26):
multiply and have dominion.
When Adam and Eve were cursed,they did not lose their
fruitfulness, it just becamehard.
It just became hard Before thesin, it was easy.
(43:52):
Well, we live in a sinful worldy'all, and so it's hard.
Do you know what softens hardground?
Moisture.
What makes ground hard is alack of moisture.
(44:15):
Good ground, ground that'sfruitful is moist ground Ground
that and I've just been teachingon this on my Instagram and
social media I have over thispast month I started with good
ground, that we have the abilityto become good ground.
What happens in life hardens us.
It evaporates that moisture,but we can become good ground
(44:42):
again.
It's not a one-time thing Again.
We don't check all the boxesget there and it's over.
So when we get hardened, we canbecome good ground again.
The way we become good groundagain begins with moisture.
I found out this week that seedscan grow with water but not
(45:03):
without water, that the firstthing that activates a seed is
water.
And think about when we used toput potatoes in jars.
We didn't have to put them inthe ground, we put them in water
.
Water is a nutrient andnutrients are things we cannot
produce ourselves.
By definition, a nutrient issomething an organism needs but
(45:26):
cannot produce themselves.
Our bodies are wonderful thingsand they're 60% water, but that
water does not come from ourbodies, it came from somewhere
else and we have to constantlyput water in.
We can survive only a limitedtime Three days, I think it is A
little over three days withoutwater.
(45:48):
So the way hard ground becomessoft is it gets wet.
Now you can get wet in rain andsome rain comes in storms.
The storm doesn't harden you.
You become hardened.
Be clear about that, becausethe storm brings rain.
(46:09):
Right, storms bring rain.
The storm didn't harden you,you became hard.
You did that.
You chose to do that.
Like you were saying, choices.
So there's rain, sometimesthere's mists or drizzle.
So I've been saying drops,drizzle and dew right.
(46:29):
So you can sometimes have thesestorms, you can sometimes have
drizzle.
What's wonderful about drizzleis you go out there in the
drizzle and you're like, oh,this ain't nothing, and 10
minutes later you're drenchedand then there's dew, even when
it's sunny outside.
God gives us dew every morning,but you know what the real
(46:49):
watering comes with?
Psalm 1-3 when we're planted bystreams, that one is happy,
that one is fruitful.
When we allow ourselves andthat's step three in my book
when we create a steady flow inour lives.
Belinda Gaston (47:12):
I think that's a great place for us to end.
Dawn.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the podcast Listen.
This conversation has been sorich.
I know that there are peoplewho want to know how to reach
you, so I'd love for you toshare how people can reach you
and if there's anything you'reworking on that you'd like to
(47:32):
share with our listeners, nowwould be a great time to do it.
Dawn Mann Sanders (47:36):
So they can share share.
They can find me atDawnMannSanderscom.
Find me at DawnMannSanderscom.
That's Dawn D-A-W-N Mann,M-A-N-N Sanders,
S-A-N-D-E-R-Scom.
Dawn Mann Sanders is also myhandle on social media.
(48:00):
So Facebook, Instagram,LinkedIn, Dawn Mann Sanders is
my handle on all these things,and the thing I'm currently
working on is actually twothings my audio book is coming
out in September September 16thand you guys can get connected
with me.
I just launched this newinitiative called the Creative
(48:21):
Restoration Movement.
It launched on Juneteenth and Ichose Juneteenth because I'm
all about restoration andrebuilding, and Juneteenth is
about delayed restoration, andso that's why I launched it
there.
I'm going to give you the linkbecause the landing page has not
(48:42):
connected to my website yet, soI'm going to give you the link.
People can sign up and become apart of this, because I have
resources for people to berestored.
God has given us the ability tobe restored, and so I'll have
lots of resources there, likedevotionals, meditations, other
eBooks, just things and a wholecommunity Facebook group.
(49:05):
All of that, all the things.
Belinda, I have all the things.
Belinda Gaston (49:10):
Excellent, excellent, and so, for our
listeners, we'll have all of thelinks to to the website, as
well as the creative restorationmovement in the show's notes.
Do you want to talk about yourpodcast?
That's coming up.
Dawn Mann Sanders (49:24):
I would love to talk about my podcast.
Thank you very much.
My podcast is called Rebuildingyour Life with Dawn Mann
Sanders, and we're basicallygoing to walk through God's
creative process with peoplefrom all different walks of life
.
I have a series that I'mbeginning with called the Many
Roads to Rebuilding, so I'llhave different people on who
(49:47):
have experienced differentthings, and I mention that
because a lot of people feellike, well, I haven't had a
miscarriage, I haven't lost myhusband.
Does this apply to me and itapplies to you if you have
experienced, yes, a devastatingloss, but also a major life
disruption or a soul-crushingdisappointment?
And so I'm bringing people onwho can help people see that
(50:13):
their lives can be enriched byembracing God's creative process
and joining the greatercreative restoration movement.
Belinda Gaston (50:23):
Excellent.
Thank you so much, Dawn.
This has been a plum pleasingpleasure talking to you.
Thank you for your time today,Dawn.
I appreciate it.
Dawn Mann Sanders (50:34):
Thanks, Belinda.
I tell you it was a joyfulmoment, so I know the spirit
showed up.
Belinda Gaston (50:39):
Yes, I think this has been amazing and for
our listeners.
Thank you so much for being aGraced to Lead listener.
I don't take your timelistening or connecting with the
show for granted.
Also, remember you can alwayssend me a text message.
In the show's notes there's aplace where you can send me a
message.
I read all of your messages andfor those who have sent
messages, you know I willrespond.
(51:00):
So, thank you.
Thank you, thank you forcontinuing to be a Graced to
Lead listener and remember wewill be back again on Thursdays.
Thank you for listening anduntil we meet each other again,
remember you are indeed Gracedto Lead.
Bye-bye.
Welcome to the Graced to Lead podcast.
I'm Belinda Gaston, your host,and listen.
Today we have an amazingconversation with a very special
woman, and so I want to startby introducing her and then I
will welcome her to the show.
On our show today we have DawnMann Sanders, and she's a
(00:32):
spiritual architect, author,bible teacher, associate
minister at First Baptist Churchof Glen Arden International in
Maryland.
She blends Genesis-shapedblueprints with reflective
practices and helps peoplerebuild rhythms after
devastating loss, soul-crushingdisappointment and major life
(00:55):
disruptions.
Her debut book, when your WorldEnds, and her forthcoming
podcast ends and her forthcomingpodcast Rebuilding your Life
illuminates God's creativeprocess so people can move from
shell-shocked tospirit-sheltered, and she lives
what she preaches.
Y'all and I am excited aboutthis conversation.
(01:18):
Can you do me a favor andwelcome Dawn Mann-Sanders to the
show?
Welcome Dawn.
Dawn Mann Sanders (01:27):
Hello Belinda , it is a pleasure to be here.
Belinda Gaston (01:31):
Thank you so much, and so one of the reasons
I believe that really thisconversation is necessary is
because we're at a time wherewomen who lead are having to
face difficult situations.
As they lead right, they areleading in places where they've
experienced loss, where they'veexperienced grief, where life
(01:55):
situations have happened and theresponsibility to lead is still
there.
But there are things that arehappening with women that are
leading that they need to dealwith, and I think you are the
perfect person for thisconversation.
So, to help our listeners, canyou start by just telling us a
little bit about your personalstory and how you got into this
(02:19):
space?
Dawn Mann Sanders (02:21):
Yeah.
So after what I call a seriesof unproductive relationships,
unfruitful relationships itwasn't necessarily that the guy
was terrible, it just wasn't agood fit and some of them
painful relationships,relationships I finally met and
(02:48):
married.
What several people in my lifesaid was the one and he blessed
me to just have the first yearourselves.
Several of our friends, when wegot married, after they got
married, got pregnant that firstyear and even though we didn't
meet each other until late inlife we didn't start courting
until we were 40 years old andwe both wanted to have a family.
(03:11):
He Graced me to have that firstyear where we weren't, we
wouldn't try, we wouldn't doanything to, you know, being
late in life too.
We didn't want to risk, youknow, doing anything to stop it
and then not being able to havea family.
But we didn't do.
We risk, you know, doinganything to stop it and then not
being able to have a family.
But we didn't do, we weren'ttrying.
And then God Graced us to notbe pregnant that first year.
(03:32):
But my husband, you know on ouranniversary, I told him we can
start on our anniversary trying,and so over that next year, I
experienced what I believe to bethree miscarriages.
I say two and document two inthe book, because I was able to
test and have the proof that Iwas pregnant twice, but I
(03:53):
believe I was pregnant the firsttime and, before I could test,
lost that child and over thecourse of the next year, like I
said, I had three miscarriages,and the third miscarriage I had
six weeks before my husband'sunexpected sudden death, and so
(04:13):
I lost what I felt like was mywhole family in the course of a
year.
With it, I felt like I'd lostmy future as well, because, as
anyone who has experienced lossknows, you don't just lose the
person, you lose the hopes anddreams tied to that person.
And with the loss of my husbandso late in life, I believe I
(04:37):
lost the opportunity to have myown family from my body.
And so, yeah, I was devastated,and that's what led to me
writing my book and starting myministry helping people rebuild
their lives after, like you said, devastating loss, major life
disruptions and soul-crushingdisappointments.
Belinda Gaston (05:01):
Thank you for sharing that, and I think that
when people hear stories likeyours, it's hard to even imagine
how you keep going Right, howdo you even get through one
miscarriage, let alone twoothers, and then the loss of
your husband, and so we'regrateful that you're sharing
(05:24):
your story.
I'm interested in how you beganto move forward.
How did you begin to sense Godleading you to rebuild?
How did you get from that placeto where you are?
Dawn Mann Sanders (05:39):
Thank you, belinda, for asking that
question and phrasing it the wayyou did.
About rebuilding, first, I wantto say you're right, it is
devastating.
I don't want to, in any way,shape or form, minimize any of
my pain or anyone else's pain.
What I will say is, because Iwas what I call a late in life
(06:01):
mom, because I was pregnant, andI believe life begins at
conception what I will say is Iwas happy that I got pregnant.
I used to celebrate my cycleevery month.
I know that's rare to hear.
After I turned 35, I startedcelebrating my cycle because it
(06:22):
was another sign to me that Ihad an opportunity to have a
family, and so I startedtreating it that way and
receiving it that way.
So the fact that I got pregnantwas just, and that's what I
prayed for.
And you know they say becareful what you ask for.
And the Bible says ask not.
(06:43):
You have not because you asknot.
I didn't think at that timethat praying for the ability to
get pregnant was different thanpraying to have a baby, and it's
different.
And so after my firstmiscarriage, though I was very
thankful to have gotten pregnant, my prayers changed and I
(07:06):
started praying to have ahealthy baby.
Well, you know the story Ididn't have a healthy baby.
After the second miscarriage,that one rocked me, the first
one.
I was like, oh, I can getpregnant.
And I also felt like though ithurt.
Like I said, I don't want tominimize my pain, and I also
felt like though it hurt.
Like I said, I don't want tominimize my pain.
That miscarriage was not, youknow, unknown and I didn't think
(07:30):
I was special.
Why would I not?
You know, why would God shieldme from one miscarriage?
Now, I did question why hedidn't shield me from two and
three.
I'll be honest about that,right.
Belinda Gaston (07:42):
What is?
Dawn Mann Sanders (07:42):
going on.
I thought this was the kind ofhousehold, the kind of family
that you would want, because wewere going to raise up kingdom
kids, right.
So I was my husband and I myhusband was a youth minister and
we were both like what is goingon?
And I started questioning mybody and was very devastated
(08:05):
with those other two and thethird one on my husband's
birthday.
I had what I call a violentmiscarriage because the other
ones and I'm just going to usethe word violent, we don't need
to go any further than any moregraphic than that.
But here I was, it was soviolent.
He took me to the emergencyroom.
(08:26):
We thought I was dying becauseof this miscarriage.
I want to mention, because yousaid, how do you get past it?
And I share in the book abouthow, after my husband died
because as long as he was aliveI still had hope for a family
when he died I very much wantedto go with him.
(08:48):
I felt like God made twodecisions that day.
He didn't just decide to takemy husband, he decided to leave
me and even though people weresaying God has more for you, I
was like, yeah, I'm not signingup for that.
I didn't sign up for this.
I'm good.
(09:10):
I started learning about heaven,because I wanted to know what
my husband's life was like.
And the more I learned aboutheaven, the more I was like why
am I?
Why do I want to stay here?
So I kept praying.
I was praying that God wouldtake me too, and he didn't.
So when you say what led to merebuilding, I want to set the
stage for what I was rebuildingfrom.
(09:31):
And so I was praying every dayGod take you know.
I would go to bed every nightasking God to take me, and every
morning I was waking up and Iwas like okay, after a while I'm
like OK, I'm an intelligenthuman being.
I'm sensing that your answer isno, at least for this season.
(09:52):
Right, because we will allsurely die, but not necessarily
today.
And so I started to pick upthat, ok, I'm going to be here,
pick up, but okay, I'm going tobe here.
And then I started thinking tomyself well, I cannot, I cannot
(10:15):
continue to hurt, because thisis just too much.
When you think you're going togo that night, you can endure
that day's pain, but to endurethat day's pain, the same level
of pain, every single day, I waslike, okay, again, I didn't
sign up for this I do since youare waking me up and I'm sensing
you saying, because I had saidthis part of my life was I was
living through the end of theworld as I knew it Well, and
(10:39):
that's what I and I sensed thatGod went yeah, and I want you to
live through the end of theworld as you know it Right.
And so that's what led to merecognizing that God was saying
I want, I kept you because Iwant you to live.
I don't want you to just exist,I don't want you to just
(11:00):
survive, I want you to justsurvive, I want you to live.
You have walked in the land ofthe dead long enough.
Turn and start living again.
And so I was like, okay, I needto start living again, and
there are a lot of great booksout there.
(11:22):
I can recommend a few ongrieving and there are a lot of
great books out there.
I can recommend a few ongrieving.
Right.
I did not find books onrebuilding and I found that
they're different.
When you're grieving, you're inone spot and what I realized is
(11:46):
, if there's any directionyou're going in, it's inward,
it's going deeper.
That's a different directionthan forward, and when you're
moving in a different direction,you need different skills and
(12:08):
tactics.
I also came to understand thatthe structures, the resources,
the insights, even myrelationship with God since this
is a Christian podcast would bedifferent in my new season than
it was in my current season,and so I had to develop these
(12:31):
new things.
And I'm gonna tell yousomething, since this is a
podcast for leaders and I'm soexcited about the fact that it's
a podcast for leaders right, asleaders, we get to certain
levels and we think certainthings are behind us.
In fact, the American culturekind of sells us a bill of goods
(12:51):
when we're on the path to theAmerican dream.
Get your education check, buy ahouse check.
Get your education check, buy ahouse check.
Find your spouse check, buildyour career check, and not
necessarily in this order.
But you have a bill of goodsand you start checking things
off Build wealth check.
Get your first six figure jobcheck right.
(13:14):
You just start, you know, buildit.
Get these titles check.
Travel check right.
You just start checking thesethings off your and you think to
yourself oh well, I've had asix-figure income, I'm never
going to have to go back to thefive-figure income because we're
moving forward.
We don't think we're going tohave, we're going to get these
(13:36):
setbacks that are going to setus so far back.
And now I'm going to take it tothe spiritual right.
The way I understood it as aminister was I never expected
for it to get this dark.
After standing in the lightthat just didn't compute.
(14:01):
My brain was like what?
How can it be this dark?
And it's this dark because thetools and the strategies and the
processes and the systems thatI had spent 25 years building I
had spent 25 years as a softwaretester.
(14:23):
I was at the pinnacle ofsoftware testing.
When I would interview people,I'd be like I don't need to
practice.
I've been doing this thing for25 years Now.
All of a sudden it's different.
And not only was it differentspiritually because I was at the
pinnacle of being a softwaretester.
(14:45):
I was hitting a ceiling in mysalary.
Remember, we're sitting heregoing.
Oh, we're going to move forward.
Belinda Gaston (14:50):
And I was like wait a minute.
Dawn Mann Sanders (14:51):
What is this?
1% pay raise?
What kind of fresh crazy isthis?
So I pivoted to become a datascientist, using all the skills
that I had as a software tester.
So I was rebuilding in everyarea of my life the reason I
mention this and in every areaof my life I needed new things
(15:15):
and one of the things I realizedthat I needed that I didn't
expect, you know, I had gottennew jobs before.
I hadn't changed careers.
I mean 25 years I hadn'tchanged careers, but I had
gotten new jobs before.
I always used the same network.
When you pivot and not only didI pivot to data science right,
(15:35):
I'm an author.
That's a huge pivot.
Data science isn't a huge pivot.
I'm using all the skills that Ihave as a tester the same
degree, everything.
That's why I chose it.
I didn't have to go back toschool or anything to be a data
scientist.
I didn't have to go back toschool, in the sense of
university, to become an author.
But I knew nothing about writinga book and the people I knew
(15:57):
hadn't written books.
They wrote code, but theydidn't write books.
So I needed a whole new networkof people.
So when I say everything waschanging, everything changed and
how I was able to rebuild, Irecognized that I was in a
(16:21):
different season, that I was notgoing to be able to stay in
that previous season because Iwas not going to be able to
endure that pain.
And in order to go into thisnew season and be successful
because we're leaders, we craveand expect, at this point,
success In order for me tosucceed, I'm going to need some
(16:46):
new skills soft skills if nothard skills, or vice versa.
Belinda Gaston (16:56):
I needed a little of both.
Wow, dawn, there are a coupleof things that you said that I
don't want us to skip past, andthe first is that you recognize
that the season that you were inwas shifting, that God wanted
you to shift.
Because you talked about wakingup, it's like, oh, I'm still
here, okay, I have to live.
And so recognizing that seasonshift and recognizing that you
(17:17):
need strategy for those seasons,I think is sometimes where
people get stuck.
People get stuck in old seasons, and that's either good or bad.
One of the things I heard yousay was you talked about in your
leadership, how you would hit aceiling at the same time, and
that's a choice.
(17:38):
And so, listeners, I want toencourage you to really think
about the season you are in.
Are you in a season whereyou're supposed to be in,
meaning the season that Godwants you in to operate in your
leadership, or are you in aseason that you're supposed to
move from from?
(18:02):
So that's a question for you tothink about, as you're
listening to Dawn talk.
So the other thing, dawn, thatyou talked about is how moving
into these new seasons requirednew things.
It required new networks foryou, it required new skills, new
things, and so I want to talkabout this, and you've outlined
some things in your book, but Iwant to talk about this one
specifically, and you'venavigated that.
I'd like for you to share oneor two things that helped you to
(18:25):
begin to move.
Dawn Mann Sanders (18:26):
Actually we're talking about some of the
stuff in my book, so this isworks real well I talk about in
my book.
My book is a deep dive into thecreation story in Genesis 1.
And as I was studying Genesis 1, just for myself, personally
wasn't expecting it to become abook, was just, you know, I'm an
(18:47):
associate minister, so I studythe Bible from time to time.
And so I was studying, god tookme back to the beginning, right
, and he said study Genesis.
And I didn't even think aboutit being the beginning at that
moment.
I just was studying Genesis.
And so the very first twoverses in the New King James
read in the beginning Godcreated the heavens and the
(19:10):
earth, and the earth was withoutform, void, and darkness was
over the face of the deep andthe spirit of God was hovering
over the face of the waters.
The face of the deep and thespirit of God was hovering over
the face of the waters.
Well, belinda, I didn't getpast verse two before I was
struck by that descriptionbecause I dug deeper.
(19:33):
Formless means more than justshapeless.
It means unproductive, and whenwe're stuck and that's the
problem that leaders are havingit's like wait a minute.
Being unproductive is foreignto us.
We lead other people in theirproductivity.
How is it that we arestruggling?
(19:56):
It is such a struggle becauseit's counter, it's
counterintuitive, it's counterto our nature.
We, we're the proverbial fishout of water, proverbial going
what the season just, and that'swhat throws us, is because the
(20:16):
strengths that we've been given,the gifts that we've been given
, the gifts that we've beengiven, the talents, the skills,
the experiences, everything thatmakes us us is rebelling,
because we're like wait a minute, this, this, how?
Because many of us are naturalborn leaders, we've been leading
(20:38):
from the cradle.
Many of us are natural bornleaders.
We've been leading from thecradle.
In fact, our parents saidthings like oh, there's 13 going
on 30, because we have beendoing this from jump, and now
we're finding ourselves in aplace where we can't even lead
ourselves, let alone otherpeople, and it feels very
(21:03):
uncomfortable.
We feel very much not ourselves.
And if we can't be ourselves,because everything comes from
who we are, I struggled withwhat I was even calling myself
after my husband died, because,you know, people immediately
start considering calling you awidow.
People were like, oh, as aminister.
They were like, oh, you canminister to widows.
And I was like, yeah, no, I'mnot feeling that Widow.
Who is that person?
(21:23):
That word was foreign to me.
I was Reggie's wife and I'donly been married to him two
years.
I had just gotten comfortablewith being his wife and now
people were calling me his widowand telling me I can minister
to strangers, I'm like, andtelling me I can minister to
strangers, I'm like, and aboutsomething I don't even know.
And I started thinking aboutthis.
(21:45):
Right, you know, when we'regrowing up, there's a
progression right where we gaincertain knowledge.
As we go on, we decide againpart of the bill of goods in
America that most leaders, atleast in America, kind of go
through.
We pick up certain skills inhigh school, we go on to college
(22:07):
, right, or trade school orwhatever it is.
We get training and we grow inour identity because of this
training.
We don't necessarily callourselves even leaders at first,
but because we're natural bornleaders, we're out here leading
and we develop confidence inthis act of leading because
we're just doing it.
(22:28):
And as we get this confidence,then we say oh.
When someone says, oh, you're aleader, we stop and we go, oh,
they're right, and then weembrace calling ourselves a
leader.
So it begins with our identityand who we are.
And if you're a leader, you dowhat leaders do.
(22:51):
In fact, you started going oh,I'm a leader.
So then you start jumping.
You know you were jumping outthere before, but you might've
learned through life going oh, Imight need to be careful about
how I.
You know you were jumping outthere before, but you might have
learned through life going oh,I might need to be careful about
how I.
But then you, because you havethis confidence, you're like oh
no, I'm a leader, so I'm OKjumping out there.
Another way of looking at it isa student.
You're taught by your parentsor whoever's raising you that
(23:14):
students go to school.
You're taught by your teachersthat students listen and
students read and students studyand students take tests, and so
you learn to do these things.
You develop confidence in doingthese things, and those are the
(23:37):
things you do when you Learn tobe.
I told you I was a softwaretest engineer when I learned
what it was.
I was first a developer.
I learned how to write code incollege and I started to call
myself a programmer because Igot confidence in doing that and
they taught me in school whatprogrammers do, and so I did
that widow.
I even learned in church how tobe a wife.
(24:00):
They teach you how to be a wife.
They have you know.
In women's ministry they teachwomen how to be a wife.
In men's ministry they teachmen how to be a husband.
They teach parents how to beparents.
You get this training?
Who teaches you how to be awidow?
Yeah, who teaches you to be amotherless mother?
(24:24):
Not a motherless, a childlessmother.
In fact, there's not even aword in the English language for
such an entity.
Right?
We have orphans who don't haveparents.
We have widows who don't havehusbands, right?
What is the word for a parentwho has no children?
It's unnatural.
That's why we don't have a word, and because it's unnatural we
(24:53):
don't teach people how to do it.
So we're thrown into thesesituations that we have not been
prepared for.
Basically, going, wait a minute, what am I supposed to do?
Well, the first thing you needto do is figure out who you are,
and I know that's a bigquestion because I wrestled with
it for years after my husbanddied.
Who am I?
(25:15):
But again, I'm loving the fact.
Not only is this a podcast forleaders, but it's a podcast for
Christian leaders.
There was a part of my identitythat, though I lost my husband,
that I did not lose.
I was still Cliff and Eloise'schild, even though I was
Reggie's wife, and I'm no longerReggie's wife.
(25:36):
I can lose that, even though myfather passed away before
Reggie did, I'm still Cliff'schild.
I'm still Eloise's child.
So as Christians, we're stillGod's child, we're still Jesus's
brother, we are still the HolySpirit's student.
So there are aspects of ouridentity that are still intact,
(25:59):
and that is.
The joy that I had in having aclean slate is that I wasn't
starting over from scratch,though it felt like it that
there were parts of me that werestill there and I needed to
lean into the parts that werestill there.
I needed to hold on to them,and that's why the first step in
(26:23):
my book is remain connected.
And remain connected to God isbecause God had not gone
anywhere.
I had gone somewhere emotionallyand mentally, because I had
lost who I was, but God hadnever stopped calling me his
child.
I am still a child of God.
(26:48):
No matter what else happens tome, no matter who else comes and
goes from my life, no matterwhere else I find myself, I am
never outside of his reach.
And so it begins with who weare, and we are his.
Belinda Gaston (27:14):
I believe that there's someone listening right
now who's like I hear you, dawn,I hear you, I'm a believer.
This is hard, this is reallyhard, and why would God even
allow something like this tohappen at this time in my life,
when everything seemed to be solined up?
(27:37):
I'm praying, I'm serving, I'mdoing all the things I'm leading
.
Well, why, now?
What would you say to thatwoman?
Dawn Mann Sanders (27:48):
Number one.
I'd honor your pain becausesuffering is real and suffering
is painful.
So I'm not in any way, shape orform, going to try to move you
from the thought that this hurtsor it's painful.
I'm going to take you toDeuteronomy.
(28:08):
The Lord said this assignmentthat I have given you.
It's not too hard, nor beyondyour reach.
God has empowered you to makeit through and, as they say, if
(28:31):
you're going through hell, don'tstop Right.
Do not make hell your home,hell your home.
Keep on moving so you can getthrough.
And I'm not telling you to rushyour grief when I say keep on
moving, because grief is part ofthe process and you need to
(28:51):
grieve and as leaders, we liketo bypass the grieving because,
like I said, your direction isinward, your direction is deep
and we want to move forward.
We're naturally wound to moveforward because you can't lead
anyone anywhere if you're notmoving and going anywhere.
But you need to go inward sothat you can figure out where
(29:18):
you're going.
You need to know where you are.
You cannot chart and I know Idon't need to explain this.
I can just say this becauseleaders understand this you
cannot get from point A to pointB if you do not know where
point A is.
We wake up one morning andwe're like where am I and how
(29:38):
did I get here?
Well then you don't know whereyou are.
You need to figure out point A.
Yeah, we all know where point Bis.
It's better that's point B,better than where we are.
But we cannot get to point Buntil we deal with point A.
Okay, and as much as we want tobypass it, go around it, go
(30:04):
over it, all of the things wemust go through it.
It's like the common cold.
You remember how we used to goto the doctor?
We don't go now because we know, again, as leaders, we know we
go.
Don't have a fever, right,don't have.
You know, it's not flu, it'snot COVID, it's not something
(30:26):
they can do something about.
We need to drink fluids and getplenty of rest.
We need to take care ofourselves.
That is the activity when you'resick and when you're healing.
You are sick.
I know we don't want to hearthat as leaders, but you're
experiencing pain.
And what is pain?
(30:47):
But a sign of sickness, a signof injury and a sign that you
need to do what, and you knowwhat to do to heal.
You know you need to rest offluids, and I keep saying that
(31:08):
because fluid in the Bible is ametaphor for God, water in all
its forms metaphor for God.
So you need to rest, somethingwe as leaders struggle with,
again against our nature, but wealso those of us who have
really excelled have learnedthat we work best when we rest,
and this is an extended seasonof rest.
(31:30):
So clear your schedule and doyou, boo.
Belinda Gaston (31:42):
That's great advice.
Dawn Mann Sanders (31:43):
I think that as leaders, oftentimes we don't
have these conversations, andI'm grateful that we're talking
about this now we want to havethe conversation about how to
move forward and we are havingthe conversation about moving
forward because, again, youcan't try to pass the point
between a and b until we know a.
But we want to just focus on B,but that's why we don't have
(32:05):
the conversation, belinda.
Belinda Gaston (32:07):
Yeah, and I think those uncomfortable
conversations are necessary.
So, dawn, you've shared with usyour journey.
You talked about giving somereally good insight to people
who, leaders, who might be inthe situation that you just came
in, and I think that there's alot of confusion and some
(32:30):
misperceptions about the wholeprocess of healing.
Right, and so can you tell usone of the biggest
misconceptions that women wholead have about healing or
starting over?
Dawn Mann Sanders (32:51):
Well, I think the first one that we, like I
said, as women, as leaders, thefirst misconception we have is
that if we do everything right,if we check all the boxes, that
we're going to keep goingforward.
But God is clear.
Behold, I do a new thing.
I recently heard a young pastorand I think his name is Pointer
(33:18):
in Arkansas, and he preachedabout how God doesn't go
backward.
And I really thought about this.
Right, because often in theBible it says remember, but it
always says remember with thegoal of moving forward, not to
move into the past, always tomove forward.
So, yeah, we're not going tostay where we are forever.
(33:43):
We reach this pinnacle and wethink, you know, we have this
idea that we've arrived.
That's one of the things.
The misconceptions is that oneday you will arrive and if you
arrive somewhere, you're notgoing back.
And what I mean by going backhave setbacks because I've done
the things.
(34:03):
Well, because, let's just again, we're in Genesis right Now.
My book deep dives into Genesisone, but let's visit Genesis two
for a moment.
My husband and I, when we werecourting, we studied Genesis two
because we wanted to study thefirst couple.
Well, again, we didn't get far.
(34:23):
We get to chapter three of thestory, and along comes the
serpent who basically just turnseverything upside down.
And so Adam and Eve were in thegarden of Eden, which is
paradise, a garden that Godplanted.
(34:47):
He didn't just let stuff growwild like in the wilderness.
Right God hand chose everythingthat was placed in the garden.
It was the perfect environmentfor the pinnacle of his creation
man and woman, adam and Eve.
Man and woman, adam and Eve.
(35:07):
And so they're in paradise, andalong comes this serpent that
convinces Eve that it can getbetter than this.
Now, ain't that a misconception?
Belinda Gaston (35:14):
Yes.
Dawn Mann Sanders (35:14):
Right there You're asking if misconception's
right.
It can get better than this,than what you're experiencing,
which is a problem because wedon't savor where we are,
because we're always trying toget the next thing Right, and
that's what grieving is about,because once it's gone, then we
hurt over it.
It's like we had this thingthat we didn't necessarily
(35:35):
appreciate the way we shouldhave when we had it, but now
that it's gone we're hurtingover it.
Belinda Gaston (35:42):
Right.
Dawn Mann Sanders (35:43):
But back to Adam and Eve.
They had been doing up untilthis point they've been doing
everything right right Becausethey were in paradise.
And now they mess up.
So my whole point with this isyou can be doing everything
quote, unquote right and havetrials and tribulations come
(36:06):
into your life.
They don't come into your lifebecause you messed up.
In fact, in the book I talkabout how in the Bible it talks
about, I want to say, in Isaiah,maybe in Revelation, I can't
remember exactly where right now, but in the Bible God talks
about creating a new heaven anda new earth.
Again change God's going togive us this goodness right, and
(36:33):
in this new place we're notgoing to remember our sins.
And so I talk about how youmight feel like you caused your
troubles, like Adam and Eveultimately did Right At first,
though they hadn't done anythingwrong until they did, but Job
did nothing.
It says Job was blameless andupright.
(36:55):
So whether you feel like youmade a mistake or not,
challenges and trouble will comeyour way.
So that's a misconception thatI can do it all right and I can
do that to protect myself.
As Christians, it's wrongthinking to protect ourselves.
(37:19):
The person who protects us isGod.
Belinda Gaston (37:28):
Thank you, dawn.
I'm going to ask one lastquestion of you.
I really want to leavelisteners with some tangible
steps, and one of them you'vealready identified.
I really love the idea of usunderstanding what point A is.
Where are you right now?
And being honest with yourselfabout that, because a lot of
(37:49):
times, as leaders, we are usedto putting up the facade to lead
well right, we carry thingsright, and so what happens is,
if you have things happeninginternally, then you just you
hide it and you're good.
You can come up with thephrases I think they call it the
spin Right, you know, and sothat's, I think, an amazing tip,
(38:11):
but other simple steps that youwould share.
Dawn Mann Sanders (38:14):
OK.
So, belinda, a moment ago yousaid that we, as Christian
leaders, christian women, we putup this facade Right Like we
have it all together.
Christian leaders, Christianwomen, we put up this facade
right Like we have it alltogether.
And I get it, because you needthe people to believe in you.
Right, they're not going tofollow you if they don't believe
in you.
But what I learned on myjourney is that people will
(38:39):
actually believe in you morewhen you're authentic, believe
in you more when you'reauthentic.
When God first dropped it in myspirit to share my journey, I
was like, yeah, no, I'm not theone God, I was very much Moses,
right, and I'm not the one.
And the reason I wasn't the one.
(38:59):
I told God this.
I said God because I'm going totell the truth.
I'm going to tell the truthabout how it hurts.
I'm not going to sugarcoat thatbecause I don't think it's
going to help people to thinkthat it doesn't hurt.
Then they're hurting andthey're wondering what's wrong
(39:23):
with me Rather than healing.
Right, because that's not goingto help them heal.
I was also concerned.
I was scared, because I waslike people are going to see the
real me.
Right Before they sinned, adamand Eve were naked and unafraid.
(39:45):
I was fearful to show people mypain.
I hurt so much, belinda, andI'm not afraid now, so I'm going
to say it I hurt so much, Ithought I lost my faith.
That's how the devil attackedme and I was like how can I,
minister, bring people to Christ?
How can I I'm a leader, right,that's what minister I lead
people, that's the phrase theyeven use Lead people to Christ.
(40:14):
How can I lead people to Christ?
And I'm questioning if I'mthere anymore.
So how can I lead people?
And people need to hear that.
Leaders struggle, but they workthrough it.
That struggle isn't the end.
It's part of the journey we'releading people on, because there
(40:38):
are going to be struggles onevery journey.
And if we don't show peoplewhen we're moving ahead and the
bumps happen, and all they see,you is hey, oh, we just moving
through and they're like wait aminute, this is a bumpy ride.
This is a bumpy ride, I'm onbumps, but you just hey, oh, and
(41:01):
you don't experience any bumpsor you go oh, that bump was
nothing, let's just stay focused.
And they're like my focus iseverywhere, but on this thing.
That's not honest and it's nothelpful and I'm going to say one
other thing, specifically again, because of our culture and I
(41:24):
don't think this is just true ofAmerica.
When I say our culture, I meanas people.
I think the world, butdefinitely America, is going
through this post truth erawhere we're celebrating people
for being dishonest.
We're following people who areregularly dishonest and you know
(41:50):
they're dishonest.
You know what they're tellingyou isn't true, because you, you
like, you're sitting up heregoing.
I know white is white and blackis black and this rain is wet.
I know rain is wet and you'retrying to tell me rain is dry,
rain is wet.
And you're trying to tell merain is dry, right, and we sit
up here and we go because itsounds good, because it's the
America we want, we're listeningand we're following and because
(42:15):
we don't like what other peopleare saying, we don't like the
truth of what's being said.
But how can we be Christianleaders, how can we be Christian
post-truth leaders?
That doesn't even follow?
(42:37):
You can't be Christian andpost-truth.
And where does all of our faithbegin Again, if I can't lead
people to Jesus, if I'mstruggling with my own
relationship with Jesus?
So we have to be honest firstwith ourselves and then be
(42:59):
honest with other people so thatpeople understand that this
isn't easy.
But, like I said, it's not toohard.
And I'm going to go back toGenesis and wrap this up.
When, in the Genesis story, godblessed us to be fruitful,
(43:26):
multiply and have dominion.
When Adam and Eve were cursed,they did not lose their
fruitfulness, it just becamehard.
It just became hard Before thesin, it was easy.
(43:52):
Well, we live in a sinful worldy'all, and so it's hard.
Do you know what softens hardground?
Moisture.
What makes ground hard is alack of moisture.
(44:15):
Good ground, ground that'sfruitful is moist ground Ground
that and I've just been teachingon this on my Instagram and
social media I have over thispast month I started with good
ground, that we have the abilityto become good ground.
What happens in life hardens us.
It evaporates that moisture,but we can become good ground
(44:42):
again.
It's not a one-time thing Again.
We don't check all the boxesget there and it's over.
So when we get hardened, we canbecome good ground again.
The way we become good groundagain begins with moisture.
I found out this week that seedscan grow with water but not
(45:03):
without water, that the firstthing that activates a seed is
water.
And think about when we used toput potatoes in jars.
We didn't have to put them inthe ground, we put them in water
.
Water is a nutrient andnutrients are things we cannot
produce ourselves.
By definition, a nutrient issomething an organism needs but
(45:26):
cannot produce themselves.
Our bodies are wonderful thingsand they're 60% water, but that
water does not come from ourbodies, it came from somewhere
else and we have to constantlyput water in.
We can survive only a limitedtime Three days, I think it is A
little over three days withoutwater.
(45:48):
So the way hard ground becomessoft is it gets wet.
Now you can get wet in rain andsome rain comes in storms.
The storm doesn't harden you.
You become hardened.
Be clear about that, becausethe storm brings rain.
(46:09):
Right, storms bring rain.
The storm didn't harden you,you became hard.
You did that.
You chose to do that.
Like you were saying, choices.
So there's rain, sometimesthere's mists or drizzle.
So I've been saying drops,drizzle and dew right.
(46:29):
So you can sometimes have thesestorms, you can sometimes have
drizzle.
What's wonderful about drizzleis you go out there in the
drizzle and you're like, oh,this ain't nothing, and 10
minutes later you're drenchedand then there's dew, even when
it's sunny outside.
God gives us dew every morning,but you know what the real
(46:49):
watering comes with?
Psalm 1-3 when we're planted bystreams, that one is happy,
that one is fruitful.
When we allow ourselves andthat's step three in my book
when we create a steady flow inour lives.
Belinda Gaston (47:12):
I think that's a great place for us to end.
Dawn.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the podcast Listen.
This conversation has been sorich.
I know that there are peoplewho want to know how to reach
you, so I'd love for you toshare how people can reach you
and if there's anything you'reworking on that you'd like to
(47:32):
share with our listeners, nowwould be a great time to do it.
Dawn Mann Sanders (47:36):
So they can share share.
They can find me atDawnMannSanderscom.
Find me at DawnMannSanderscom.
That's Dawn D-A-W-N Mann,M-A-N-N Sanders,
S-A-N-D-E-R-Scom.
Dawn Mann Sanders is also myhandle on social media.
(48:00):
So Facebook, Instagram,LinkedIn, Dawn Mann Sanders is
my handle on all these things,and the thing I'm currently
working on is actually twothings my audio book is coming
out in September September 16thand you guys can get connected
with me.
I just launched this newinitiative called the Creative
(48:21):
Restoration Movement.
It launched on Juneteenth and Ichose Juneteenth because I'm
all about restoration andrebuilding, and Juneteenth is
about delayed restoration, andso that's why I launched it
there.
I'm going to give you the linkbecause the landing page has not
(48:42):
connected to my website yet, soI'm going to give you the link.
People can sign up and become apart of this, because I have
resources for people to berestored.
God has given us the ability tobe restored, and so I'll have
lots of resources there, likedevotionals, meditations, other
eBooks, just things and a wholecommunity Facebook group.
(49:05):
All of that, all the things.
Belinda, I have all the things.
Belinda Gaston (49:10):
Excellent, excellent, and so, for our
listeners, we'll have all of thelinks to to the website, as
well as the creative restorationmovement in the show's notes.
Do you want to talk about yourpodcast?
That's coming up.
Dawn Mann Sanders (49:24):
I would love to talk about my podcast.
Thank you very much.
My podcast is called Rebuildingyour Life with Dawn Mann
Sanders, and we're basicallygoing to walk through God's
creative process with peoplefrom all different walks of life
.
I have a series that I'mbeginning with called the Many
Roads to Rebuilding, so I'llhave different people on who
(49:47):
have experienced differentthings, and I mention that
because a lot of people feellike, well, I haven't had a
miscarriage, I haven't lost myhusband.
Does this apply to me and itapplies to you if you have
experienced, yes, a devastatingloss, but also a major life
disruption or a soul-crushingdisappointment?
And so I'm bringing people onwho can help people see that
(50:13):
their lives can be enriched byembracing God's creative process
and joining the greatercreative restoration movement.
Belinda Gaston (50:23):
Excellent.
Thank you so much, Dawn.
This has been a plum pleasingpleasure talking to you.
Thank you for your time today,Dawn.
I appreciate it.
Dawn Mann Sanders (50:34):
Thanks, Belinda.
I tell you it was a joyfulmoment, so I know the spirit
showed up.
Belinda Gaston (50:39):
Yes, I think this has been amazing and for
our listeners.
Thank you so much for being aGraced to Lead listener.
I don't take your timelistening or connecting with the
show for granted.
Also, remember you can alwayssend me a text message.
In the show's notes there's aplace where you can send me a
message.
I read all of your messages andfor those who have sent
messages, you know I willrespond.
(51:00):
So, thank you.
Thank you, thank you forcontinuing to be a Graced to
Lead listener and remember wewill be back again on Thursdays.
Thank you for listening anduntil we meet each other again,
remember you are indeed Gracedto Lead.
Bye-bye.
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