May 22, 2025 • 47 mins
Ever stood strong for everyone else while secretly questioning everything? In this soul-stirring episode, Dr. Jenny Carter—professor, researcher, and minister with over 20 years studying spiritual formation—shares her journey through spiritual struggle and how it shaped her understanding of authentic faith and leadership.
Dr. Carter vulnerably recounts a moment when her honest questions about faith were met with judgment: "I used to respect you, and now I'm not even sure you're a Christian." This painful interaction highlights the unspoken pressure leaders face to project certainty while privately wrestling with doubt. With remarkable candor, she explains how questioning isn't weakness but often a necessary bridge from "dependent faith" (adopting beliefs from authority figures) to "interdependent faith" (owning personal beliefs while maintaining healthy community).
The conversation offers profound insights for high-capacity leaders navigating spiritual struggles while guiding others. "If we repress what is real and keep soldiering on," Dr. Carter warns, "eventually it leaks out in ways damaging to ourselves and others." She unpacks how unprocessed spiritual questions manifest in leadership through burnout, unrealistic expectations, and the "shrapnel" of pain that wounds those around us.
Among the most liberating revelations: many spiritual struggles stem from expectations we place on ourselves that God never demanded. "Are you putting more expectations on yourself than God, the God of the universe, is placing on you?" Dr. Carter provides practical wisdom for the journey—examining expectations, looking for "glimmers" of God's goodness amid difficulty, and finding trusted confidants who can handle your authentic questions.
Whether you're questioning your faith while leading others or simply seeking a more honest spirituality, this conversation offers permission to be human and practical pathways through wilderness seasons. As Dr. Carter beautifully reminds us: suffering doesn't mean you're cursed—it means you're human. And it's often through these struggles that we experience God's character most profoundly.
Ready to find freedom in the questioning? Listen now and discover how spiritual struggle might actually strengthen your leadership rather than diminish it.
Mentioned During This Episode:
- Bible Verses:
- Psalm 23
- 2 Corinthians 3:4–6
- 2 Corinthians 12:9
- Psalm 27:13 (NASB)
- Strong Like Water by Aundi Kolber (especially Chapter 6 and the concept of “glimmers” from Deb Dana)
- Reaching for an Invisible God by Phillip Yancey
Please subscribe to our mailing list to stay connected and get updates! Thanks for listening to the Graced to Lead Podcast.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Belinda Gaston (00:00):
If you've ever doubted God while showing up
strong for everyone else, ifyou've wrestled with questions
about your faith but felt likeyou had to keep going anyway,
listen, you are in the rightplace.
In this episode of the Gracedto Lead podcast, we're talking
with Dr Jenny Carter.
She's a leader, researcher andminister.
(00:20):
She's the professor ofministerial calling at Evangel
University and assistantacademic director at the
Assemblies of God TheologicalSeminary.
She spent more than 20 yearsstudying and teaching spiritual
formation.
Listen, this conversation ishonest, it's freeing and I
(00:41):
believe it really is the kind ofconversation that we don't talk
enough about.
We don't talk about howspiritual struggle shows up in
our lives, especially as leaders, and what to do with it.
So let's talk about the faithbehind the leadership.
Ready, let's get into it.
All right?
(01:12):
Welcome to the Graced to Leadpodcast.
I am Belinda Gaston, your host,and we are in season two.
Y'all, and it has been anamazing season so far.
Today is no different than therest of our interviews.
We have an amazing guest withus.
We have Dr Jenny Carter in theroom.
Dr. Jenny Carter (01:33):
I'm really glad to be here.
So thank you for the invitation, thank you for the opportunity
to share my story and hopefullysome of the things that the Lord
has walked me through can be anencouragement to others.
Belinda Gaston (01:45):
Thank you, we're excited to have you.
I want to start with yousharing a bit about your work
and what led you to focus onspiritual formation and faith
through trials.
Dr. Jenny Carter (01:58):
Sure.
So I currently work at theAssemblies of God Theological
Seminary.
I am a professor, but aresearch professor looking at
calling in the life of theminister over the lifetime.
But I have worked in highereducation for 22 years and
gotten to focus on spiritualformation for a good chunk of
(02:22):
that time and that's honestlybeen a driving force for me and
a passion for me.
But kind of where did I getstarted in all of this?
I went to college, went to aChristian college, was a
ministry major and was reallyexcited about discipleship and
wanting to understand what doesit mean first for me to be an
(02:43):
authentic follower of Jesus, tohave a real, deep, true faith,
and what does it like to createthat for others?
And so, as a idealistic 20something, went to college and
thought I would land on staff ata church, which would have been
a great job, would have been agreat way to live out calling.
I thought I would be writingdiscipleship curriculum and
(03:07):
encouraging people to lead andserve, creating spaces for that
to happen, for people to justgrow in their faith.
Through just the way that theLord happened to lead me, it
seems my calling and my space tooften work was not going to be
in a church, but actually withinhigher education, and so I
(03:28):
thought I would go to graduateschool.
I had a couple of differentideas, just love learning, and
ended up doing a master's degreein higher education and in one
of my classes called vocationalformation was sitting in like
kind of a semi-circle like theylike that can happen in some of
those smaller classes reallyconversation-based, and the
(03:48):
professor who was a campuspastor at Bethel University in
the Twin Cities area.
She was just going throughspiritual formation, development
theory and what that looks like, the way people develop.
It was really helpful tounderstand in different seasons
of life, in different seasons oflife, in different phases of
life, what can happenspiritually in terms of the
(04:09):
lives of people.
She was starting to unpack somethings for me and, I remember,
for other students and it wasone of those moments where I was
forever changed by sitting inthat room because as an
undergrad I went to college andthought I'm going to learn all
about God, I'm going to learnall about scripture, I'm going
to learn all these things, whichI did, and I thought I would
(04:30):
come out of college with thisreally solid faith and what I
came out of college with, Idefinitely knew more about the
Lord.
But I had a lot of questionsand I went to college and
thought I'm just going to bemore solid than I am now and was
leaving college wasn't surewhat my next step was, wasn't
sure where I was going to land.
(04:50):
A couple of years later Ilanded in grad school and was
really thankful for that.
But I remember another studentlooking at me in class one day
and was just talking about Ihave questions about why the
church looks like it does and ifthe Bible says this, why do
people live like this?
And was really unpacking.
Some of my experiences growingup in the church with unhealthy
(05:10):
leaders and just kind of it cameto a head at like 21, 22.
And I said you know, Iquestioned some of these things.
I never gave up on Jesus, Inever gave up on faith, which
sometimes that is part ofpeople's stories and I want to
give them space for that if theykind of ask those deep
questions.
And I remember her looking atme and saying I used to respect
you and now I'm not even sureyou're a Christian.
(05:32):
And to be honest, belinda, itgutted me.
It gutted me so hard because Iwas like, oh wow, I was
vulnerable and I was transparent.
And now she's like you're notgood enough to be part of the
crew anymore.
And I was transparent and nowshe's like you're not good
enough to be part of the crewanymore.
And I don't know that that washer intention, like I say that
like in jest, to show you myvulnerability in that moment.
This is not to slam her.
(05:54):
So when I'm in that grad class acouple years later, the campus
pastor from Bethel, one of thecampus pastors, and she's
unpacking all this and she talksabout as young adults, what
you'll see is they as teenagerswe can often have dependent
(06:15):
faith, faith that we kind oftake on from parents, pastors,
leaders, coaches, and we justsort of assume our faith from
others.
It doesn't mean we don't haveour own thoughts and all that,
and in some ways that's reallygood.
I understand that now as aparent, but we take that on.
And then as you move into youngadulthood you kind of go to
independent faith where you kindof the pendulum swings to the
other side and it becomes verymuch your own.
(06:37):
But in that process you canquestion a lot of things and the
healthy place to land isindependent faith where you have
a healthy balance of your ownindividualized faith in the Lord
but you also have a healthybalance of community.
It's totally normal to askquestions.
It ended up impacting mymaster's thesis.
It impacted my dissertationwhen I got my doctorate which
(07:01):
are both in higher education isto talk about spiritual struggle
First off is just a normal partof life and it's one of those
things where I look back now andlike we can see it in scripture
, we can see it in greatChristian leaders.
I continue to learn aboutdifferent people who ask
questions and it doesn't meanthat they're bad, it's actually
really really healthy.
(07:21):
I would say some of it islearning, asking those questions
in the right spaces.
We want to be authentic asleaders but sometimes you know
sharing we're not going to shareall that necessary from the
platforms that we're standing on, but I've wanted to create
spaces for people to say youknow, this just doesn't make
sense or this was hard, and tocome alongside and say, yeah, me
(07:43):
too, I've been there or I maybehad something, maybe a
different set of questions,different set of circumstances.
But to normalize, there aretimes when doubt is a part of
the process.
A book that was reallyimpactful for me is Reaching for
an Invisible God by PhilipYancey.
It was like somebody wrote awhole book where it was like,
hey, jenny, what you've beenasking and what you've
(08:05):
experienced is absolutely, 100%part of the journey, and that's
propelling me, 20 some yearslater, to say that, especially
for women, god's not asking youto do something that you may be
asking of yourself to perform ata level, or to not ever have
questions or anything.
Belinda Gaston (08:26):
Thank you for your transparency in sharing
this, because I think this issomething we don't talk about.
We have questions sometimes aswe walk out our faith or we go
through our faith journeys, butit's almost as if there is a
penalty or punishment, as you'vekind of described in your
interaction for questioning it'syou lose respect or how dare
(08:49):
you question God, and I lovethat you've said and shared that
it's okay to have questions, sothank you for sharing that.
I also really like that you'vedescribed this walk from
dependent faith to independentfaith and you talked about it in
this in the kind of age rangeof the.
(09:12):
You know the 20 something yearold who's kind of moving out of
their parents home into a moreindependent space and really
thinking more and doing more ontheir own and doing more on
their own.
But I've met women inleadership who have been much
older than that, that still havea dependent faith, and so I do
(09:35):
appreciate that process.
We're going to tie this intoleadership in a minute, but I
really want you to understandwhat this kind of spiritual
struggle looks like first andunderstand what that is.
So I'd like to talk a littlebit more about this movement
from dependent faith toindependent faith.
Can you maybe give somecharacteristics of someone who
(09:58):
has a dependent faith say maybetheir parents' faith or kind of
the tenants that they kind ofgrew up with, versus someone who
has independent faith?
Dr. Jenny Carter (10:11):
Sure.
So one thing I feel like thatis, I'm going back to that
classroom experience it was Juneof 2003, is when she unpacked
it.
She said if you never move fromhaving a completely dependent
faith and I will say in my storyI've probably landed pretty
similar not the exact samespaces, but pretty similar to
(10:33):
the faith I grew up with itwasn't it needed to be tested.
But if you're someone who justlives in dependent faith, you're
just going to keep assuming theworldview of the people that
you're around.
And so there's a book.
It was published, I think itwas like in the seventies.
It's a little book by a mannamed John Westerhoff Will Our
(10:54):
Children have Faith?
And so he is talking about theway that we do spiritual
formation in our churches.
Are we doing it where we justwant people to become like us to
an almost unhealthy extent,where they're not going to be
able to own it?
They're not going to have theirown identity, their own
honestly, let's just be honestrelationship with the Lord.
And what does it look like?
Am I hearing the voice of theHoly Spirit?
(11:14):
Am I hearing the voice ofothers?
There's godly counselors thatare so, so important.
But am I doing this to pleasethe Lord, or am I doing this to
please other people?
And we know the Apostle Paulkind of warns us against that in
the book of Galatians as he'stalking to those people, that if
we're constantly trying toplease others, but if we're
constantly trying to pleaseothers and not ultimately please
(11:37):
the Lord, then we're reallykind of giving up on salvation,
because that just turns into aform of legalism.
And so I think with everythingthere's good parameters.
But what does it look like?
These are questions I'm stillasking myself, like I said,
decades later.
And that's where you allow theHoly Spirit to, in the quiet,
just speak to us and say am Ilooking to what others have told
(12:00):
me or am I the one studyingscripture?
Am I looking through whatothers have told me or am I the
one studying scripture?
Am I the one listening for yourvoice or am I just running to
someone else in this dependentmodel where, yes, community has
a place?
But am I not allowing myself tojust wrestle alone with the
(12:21):
Lord?
A spiritual struggle can take ondifferent forms.
Self to just wrestle alone withthe Lord, a spiritual struggle
can take on different forms.
Spiritual struggle can besomething that is connected with
, maybe some sort of event wherethere's some sort of big
stressor.
So you'd have a health crisiscompletely unexpectedly.
That might cause some spiritualstruggle.
You could have a bad experiencewith church and experience
(12:43):
church hurt, which most of usprobably have, let's be honest,
because there are broken peoplerunning our churches and running
our organizations.
There are so many things thatwe can.
Just we're kind of told to likeWhite-knuckle the situation just
really dig in and we want to bestrong, but we also don't
(13:03):
process through what the pain is, what the things are that are
challenging, how pieces cometogether, and so it could also
be something personal.
That's in me.
Am I lacking motivation?
Am I just feel like I'm nothearing the Lord?
Am I?
I just feel like I'm nothearing the Lord?
But within that, like, I thinkwe have to, like I said,
(13:26):
normalize it and then askourselves good questions, to
pause.
And I used to live, I used tolive in Florida.
Even I lived in central Florida, so I wasn't right next to
either of the coast.
But just I would say, can youget away?
And get away, it could be inyour car.
I would say, for me it would bea bottle, you know, is there a
body of water and just askquestions and then let the Holy
(13:48):
Spirit do his work, and I thinkthis is an ongoing journey for
us.
But am I allowing myself toreally rest on that rock solid
foundation that is him, or am Ilooking to others for my worth?
And so I think it kind of, isit?
Some of these things can kindof unravel where am I, where am
(14:09):
I getting my worth from?
Where am I getting my securityfrom, or getting my sense of
safety from, as my strength, asmy security, as my worth, or am
I allowing those things?
Am I asking from the peoplearound me too much, where I'm
relying on them in an unhealthyway that it's almost can become
an idol, and so any good thingcan become an idol.
(14:31):
But in that, I think the Lordwants to meet us when we have
those hard questions, and he'snot mad.
We can want to say, and it saysour prayers.
But when we look at the book ofPsalms, there's a lot of lament
, there's a lot of David saying,hey, this doesn't make sense,
this is injustice.
Belinda Gaston (14:47):
Hey, this is not what I signed up for.
Dr. Jenny Carter (14:48):
And don't run away from those feelings.
But I think when we're leaninginto that dependent faith, we're
trying to do something more toperform, to get approval.
I think that's what can evolvein over time.
Like I said, there's a seasonwhere that's good, there's a
season where that is helpful,that gets us started, but that's
(15:08):
not meant to sustain us withour whole journey in life.
I hope that answers yourquestion.
Belinda Gaston (15:10):
It does.
It's so timely because I oftenthink that this struggle that we
have spiritually, as you said,it can be life events, it can be
something that happens, butparticularly where we are right
now in the world, where it seemsas if what we have been used to
and government and the economyand even in our educational
(15:34):
spaces has been it's almost beenshaken a little, it's like
shaken and things aren't the waythey used to be.
I can see how many people arehaving these feelings of what's
weird about my faith andstruggling spiritually, and so
the reason I wanted to have youon this show, jenny, is because
(15:56):
for leaders it's real foreveryone.
But for leaders I think it'sespecially difficult because not
only are you dealing with yourown spiritual struggles, but you
are responsible for leadingother people who also may be
dealing with their spiritualstruggles, even in corporate
(16:16):
spaces.
So I think that's why I was soexcited about this conversation.
So you gave some greatresources and for our listeners
we will put the references thatDr Jenny is mentioning in this
conversation.
We'll put that in the shownotes for you.
You've already talked about whywe should acknowledge these
struggles.
And so I want to talk a littlebit about the impact on our
(16:40):
leadership for the women who arelistening to this show and I
found out a couple of days agothat some men are listening to
this shows of your men.
Thank you for listening.
We welcome you too.
But for the women who are inleadership positions, whether
they're leading in corporatespaces or like they're
entrepreneurs or they're leadingin ministries or organizations,
and they may be dealing withspiritual struggle, how?
(17:05):
does it show up for these people, especially if they are high
capacity leaders?
How does it tend to show up inleaders?
Dr. Jenny Carter (17:16):
I think it can show up in a variety of ways.
I think one of the questions wehave to continually process
through is am I living arealistic version of myself or
am I striving to be this idealversion of myself?
And ideal, I think, sometimescan be helpful, because if
you're a leader, you're probablya high achiever.
(17:37):
You probably are in thatposition because the Lord gave
you that opportunity to be thereand because the way that he's
wired you and the way that he'sgifted you but people recognize
something in you and you canaccomplish things, and so you
have past successes that havebrought you to that place, to
that role, to that title, tothat, honestly, that sphere of
(17:58):
influence.
But in that we can be in aspace where we're always, always
producing, and we have to makesure that there is health inside
of us.
And that is a continual,ongoing journey of working
through our brokenness,partnering, like allowing the
Holy Spirit to do the work thathe wants to do in us.
And so I think what can happenis that there are things that
(18:23):
weren't we didn't realize wereimpacting the way that we lead
honestly, the way that we live,and as we start to go through
some sort of spiritual strugglewhich could be initiated by a
crisis.
It could be not, but there arethings in our story that maybe
we haven't dealt with, that wedidn't know were problems, and
that we got to start to dealwith them.
And so as we we move into newspaces, we move into new things,
(18:45):
as we walk in through differentthings, we realize that maybe
there were some.
You might walk through a bigtrauma.
We would say some of ourfriends in the psychology space
and the counseling space and thetherapy space would say big T,
but there might be a big Ttrauma, but there can also be a
lot of little T traumas say bigT, but there might be a big T
trauma, but there can also be alot of little T traumas.
And so as we walk through thosethings, we realize like, oh,
(19:07):
that thing, that now that I'mhere, now that I am in a space
that's more vulnerable, that Iam maybe experiencing some sort
of questions.
And the questioning is whatactually leads us to independent
faith.
The questioning because westart asking like do I believe
that?
So-and-so believes it, but do Ibelieve it?
What is true of God?
But if we can, if we realizethat maybe we have a thousand
(19:32):
paper cuts.
It may not be this big gapingwound, but there might be a
thousand paper cuts on our hands.
You know what that's like whenyou have a paper cut and then
you use hands.
It's awful and it kind of yes,it's awful, it's awful, and so
both of those can bring it out,and it can be, you know, I had
(19:52):
some coping skills or I had somebehaviors or I had some things
that maybe served me really wellto get through some sort of not
great experience in my life.
But it's not going to continueto serve me well and the Lord's
going to work that out in you.
And so a thing that Ruth HaleyBarton said that has been
impacting me and helping meprocess through things that I
didn't know were still impactingme from when I was a teenager
(20:15):
and in my forties.
But when we repress what is realin our lives and just keep
soldering on, we get weary fromholding it all in and eventually
it leaks out in ways that aredamaging to ourselves and to
others.
On the other hand, theexperience of God, unconditional
love and presence during thosesolitary times when we are not
doing anything for God, is ourgreatest human need, and we are
(20:39):
called to do things for thekingdom and it's like a strength
and a weakness, it's like thegood and the bad.
There's like kind of both sidesof the coin.
So we're doing things for thekingdom, but when it becomes all
about that there and we cankind of get a little caught up
(20:59):
in ourselves, then we can forgetthat we are finite, that we are
humans, that he has created us,that he has called us, but we
can kind of get kind of on thisisland of our aloneness.
And that's where we rememberthat we need God's presence.
That is actually already therewith us.
The unconditional love isalready there.
The space to ask questions isalready there.
(21:20):
God invites our questions.
I used to shun questions becauseI was like those are for weak
people and that's not me and Idon't want to be weak.
Well, the Lord totally allowsus to ask questions.
But where can I find the spaceto do that?
And that's where I think theindependent faith comes in.
We find the people that we cantrust.
It can be a mentor.
(21:41):
It might need to be a therapist.
It could be a leadership coach.
It could be a good friend.
I have two friends.
I call them my junk friendsbecause I love them yearly and
they will take me junk.
They will take me on my baddays, they'll take me when I
want to yell or when thingsaren't making sense or whatever.
But I trust them with myvulnerability and so we have to
(22:04):
have those safe spaces and sowhen we're walking through
things and we have questions andwe're still pouring out and
leading others and those are thepeople that can come alongside
us and we can be real with maybethat we can't necessarily be
from the platform, but if Idon't deal with my stuff, it's
going to come out.
(22:25):
I wish I remember who I heardsay this.
But it's like we all haveshrapnel that we kind of put out
in the spaces that we're in,but you need to be careful what
that shrapnel looks like.
And so if you're not walkingthrough and dealing with those
things with the Holy Spirit andin the right spaces, it's going
to come out in other areas.
That's where we need to groundour self-awareness.
(22:46):
We all have those blind spots,but if, whatever that looks like
for you and how you can be thebest version of who God has
created you to be, you have tofind those tools to help you or
it is going to come out in waysthat are unhealthy and, honestly
, we're going to have toapologize for things that we
don't want to necessarily haveto apologize for.
(23:08):
And so I'm kind of thinkingright now in second Corinthians,
chapter three, where theapostle Paul talks about our
work as ministers.
So whether you're a minister inthe pulpit, you're a minister in
the marketplace, you're aminister in the classroom, in
the boardroom, wherever thatlooks like, we can just say the
confidence that we have this iscoming from verse four that we
(23:28):
have with the Lord is throughthe work of Jesus.
Not that we are sufficient toclaim anything from ourselves,
but our sufficiency has comefrom God, who has made us
sufficient to be ministers ofthe new covenant.
Your sufficiency comes from him.
He's the one that's gifted you,he's the one that's given you
those spaces, he's the onethat's given you those
(23:48):
opportunities.
And so I look at that passageof scripture and just kind of
remind myself of that.
But continuing to grow and lookfor the opportunities of what
means to be healthy, what doesit mean to be whole?
What does it mean to be adisciple of Jesus, is allowing
the opportunities for thosethings to be worked through and
just recognize as much asspiritual struggle is normal, so
(24:11):
is my need to continue to growand let the Holy Spirit work
things out in me.
Belinda Gaston (24:20):
Wow, dr Cheney, you said a lot so for our
listeners.
I know that many of you who areleading have been in this space
, particularly now, where youhave had some questions in your
(24:40):
faith because of an event,whether it's a large event or a
small event, something that'shappening right now or something
that happened in your pastthat's coming back and you're
trying to figure out.
Well, why am I responding thatway?
And what I hear Dr Jenny sayingis, if you don't address this
(25:01):
thing now, if you don't giveyourself that time and space to
question, to seek God, forwhatever it is that you need,
that it will manifest itselfthrough your leadership in ways
that you may not have intended.
And that comment about having toapologize we as leaders, we
(25:22):
want to be willing to say we'rewrong, but do you want to place
yourself in a position where youhave to consistently apologize
because you're not dealing withthe struggle that you're having?
You're not even acknowledgingthe struggle that you're having
spiritually.
I want that to sit for a secondfor our listeners, perhaps
(25:46):
listeners the frustration you'reexperiencing as leaders is tied
to some small or largespiritual struggle that you want
to acknowledge, mm-hmm.
So I love that and I also, drCarter appreciate.
(26:09):
I keep calling you Dr Carter,dr Janie, dr Carter, I really
like Dr Janie some moments.
I like Dr Carter some moments.
Dr Janie is perfect.
Dr. Jenny Carter (26:16):
It's ironic I have the credential, but I'm
really just Janie, especially inthis space.
If we were in the same room, Iwould imagine big cups of coffee
that we would be sharing andtalking.
Yes.
Belinda Gaston (26:26):
Yes.
So for our listeners, I wantyou to tell me also when you
hear this if you like, dr Jennyor Dr Carter, we're going to
have a little poll there.
But listen, jenny, I appreciatethat you gave people permission
to ask questions.
I think that sometimes asleaders, even as believers, we
forget that we are human right.
There's this expectation thatin your leading in this space,
(26:48):
you have to be a certain way,and so I appreciate that and I
appreciate the quote that yougave us.
And so we've talked about whatspiritual struggle looks like.
We've talked about going from adependent faith to independent
faith.
We've talked about how thesespiritual struggles impact our
(27:09):
leadership, and by now I imagineour listeners are like wow, I
mean, this is kind of a heavyconversation necessary.
So I'd like to start talkingabout some practical advice and
some encouragement for the womanwho's listening right now, who
may have just had an aha moment.
They may have just heardsomething and said they're like,
(27:31):
oh, my goodness, I'm in themiddle of a spiritual struggle
and that's why I feelspiritually depleted or even
weary in my leadership decisionsand the things that I have to
do.
Dr. Jenny Carter (27:44):
Yet I still am responsible for leading these
things, for doing this programfor providing strategy for this
organization you putting moreexpectations on yourself than
God, the God of the universe, isplacing on you, because I think
(28:17):
at times well, let me take astep back.
I think the root of a lot ofspiritual struggle whether it be
the way life circumstances haveworked out, the way things may
like an unexpected relationshipbattle, whether it be, maybe,
especially with other believers,unexpected relationship battle,
whether it be, maybe,especially with other believers
those are her heart it all comesback to unmet expectations.
We have unwritten,unarticulated, subconscious
expectations of the way thingsare supposed to be, and I don't
(28:44):
mean that to be down in thedumps, but just like, like or
pull us into it, like you weresaying, like a really
pessimistic space, like I justwant to create space and
acknowledge, like this is theholistic part of what we're
living through.
But what were my expectationsand how they not lived out?
I think those are greatquestions that we can ask
ourselves and allow the HolySpirit to just kind of unravel
it.
And then the character of Godis always true.
The character of God is alwaystrue.
(29:06):
The challenge that I have tosay is what were my expectations
of God?
And it's probably theexpectations that have failed me
, not the Lord and people havefailed us.
People have hurt us, life hasfailed us.
Life has hurt us.
It could be an attack of theenemy, you know what I mean.
There could be a variety ofthings and what that is, but are
we expecting some sort of levelof performance that is just not
(29:30):
at all what God is asking of us.
And if you can process throughthat and let yourself just
answer that question, that willhelp you develop a little bit
more realistic expectations ofyourself, because you may be
demanding something that God isnot asking for you.
In Psalm, chapter 16, thepsalmist says the boundary lines
(29:53):
have fallen for me in pleasantplaces.
The psalmist is talking aboutthe land allotments in Israel.
But for me I was broke down intears with a leadership coach
almost three years ago nowbecause it was so much of the
pressure that I was feeling wasfrom expectations that I had set
(30:14):
up on myself that were justunrealistic.
So if maybe the unrealisticexpectation you have yourself is
you should never have anyquestions, if you're a good
leader, you know what I meanLike that is not realistic and
you eventually will crash.
You eventually will crash.
And the psychology spaces whowill talk about glimmers?
So we know about triggers, weknow what triggers are, but what
(30:36):
are glimmers?
Where do you see the goodness ofGod and kind of make note of
that in the midst of all of it,because so much of what we walk
through as believers is both andit is.
We have joy and sadnesssimultaneously.
We have good, we see thepromises of God fulfilled, and
(30:57):
there is heartache, there iscancer, there is just whatever.
There is injustice, and now youhave this other thing and I
would just sit there and sit inthe pain of it.
Injustice, and now you had thisother thing and I would just
sit there and sit in the pain ofit, sit in the sorrow of it.
But the thing about the trafficlight is, I acknowledged the
grief but I didn't perseverateon it because of traffic.
(31:19):
I had to start driving when thelight changed to red or I'd get
honked at.
But it had almost become thisspiritual practice for me where
I grieved it, I prayed throughit, but I had to keep moving on.
And so walk through thoseexpectations.
Acknowledge it, but allowyourself to experience the good,
to see the good.
A lot of what we live through,honestly, until the end of
Revelation, is man in thewilderness, like we can be in
(31:42):
these wilderness spaces.
I'm not saying the promisedland is maybe never coming.
You can kind of use that, someof the Old Testament ideas there
, but you're going to have bothand there will be provision in
the wilderness.
And if you're in a space thatfeels like that, allow yourself
to just kind of crack open yourheart, let that Holy Spirit, let
the oil of the Holy Spirit goin and say, okay, lord, can I
(32:05):
also see your provision?
Can I also see where thegoodness and mercy have followed
me all the days of my life andthat I am still dwelling in your
house in the midst of all of it?
I think also I would allowyourself to just look at
scripture through the lens ofread the whole story.
Because they had struggle, theyhad things that didn't work out.
(32:28):
The apostle Paul, you know,three times I asked the Lord to
take this thing from me and hesaid nope, my grace is
sufficient for you.
Some of the ideas in thatparticular passage of scripture
is talk about the grace and thestrength of the Lord.
But if you look in the originallanguage is it grows into
completion, like it comes intoits fullness in the midst of the
(32:50):
trial and the midst of thestruggle.
But that's also him saying Iasked God for this and he told
me something else, and sothere'd be grace there, but he
still asked it.
He still asked for the betteranswer.
He still asked for the betterthing, what seemed like the
better thing for him.
And so, I think, still ask him,still make those requests,
still make those requests of theLord, like for rescue, for
(33:12):
deliverance, for all thosethings, but know that he has not
abandoned you in the process,when the answer doesn't look
like what you thought it shouldbe.
Belinda Gaston (33:20):
That is very practical advice.
You asked us to examine ourexpectations, and that one is a
huge one.
You could have dropped the micright there, jenny, with just
that one, because that's onethat I think many of us are
walking through every day.
We have to tell ourselves, like, girl, manage your own
expectations.
Or how about we reject theexpectations of others?
(33:42):
That's not realistic.
Or what expectations have weput on God?
I think that's a great question.
And then you talked aboutlooking for the glimpses, which
I've not even heard before.
So I love this idea of lookingfor those glimpses, those
moments where the promises ofGod have happened in your life,
and it's daily.
I think if we're intentionalabout looking for the glimpses,
(34:04):
you'll find it.
I remember my grandmother toldme a long time ago be careful
what you seek, you'll find it.
I remember my grandmother toldme a long time ago be careful
what you seek, because you'llfind it.
And it never made sense to me.
It never made sense.
I was like, okay, why are youtalking?
I used to call my grandmotherpumpkin Pumpkin.
This isn't making sense, butnow that I'm older I get it.
What you are seeking, you willfind.
And so if we are intentionalabout seeking the glimpses.
(34:24):
We'll find the glimpses, willfind the glimpses.
I love that.
And then the last thing, thelast tip that you shared was
reading the full story in theBible.
I know it's easy for us to takeone verse and you know, as
again referencing my grandma,she's a big part, she was a big
part of my life, jenny, so Ireferenced her a lot.
But taking that one scriptureand making it preach and it's
(34:46):
like, well, what about whathappened before and what
happened after?
And let's look at the wholestory here Abraham was like me,
or Sarah was like me, or findingyourself in the scripture is
really important.
So I think those are threereally practical tips.
I'd love for you, if you'recomfortable, before we go, to
(35:06):
share maybe a personal story oran example of a time when you
had to lead while wrestling withGod or your own faith questions
, or even the story of someoneyou know that has had to do that
.
I'd love for you to share thatand how they handled the
situation or how you handled thesituation.
Dr. Jenny Carter (35:28):
I have been in situations where I'm driven for
excellence.
One thing my husband will tellme often is he's very, very wise
.
Sometimes I get mad at himbecause he's wise, because I
don't like what he's saying,even though he's right.
But your biggest strength isalso your weakness, and so I
continually want to understandthe giftings that God has given
(35:50):
me.
In my drive for excellence canmaybe pull myself or others, it
can actually become a weakness,because I can be driven for
excellence so much that it's nothealthy and it's not submitted
honestly to the Lordship ofJesus.
But I have been in situationswhere I was just I didn't like
the circumstances around me interms of the organizations.
(36:13):
I was critical and I was.
It was one of those.
I'm going to shake my fist atGod and say you know, if I was
in charge, I would do thisbetter, not like oh, I need to
be above this leader.
I meant just the way that thewhole environment was being
played out and what I had to dois I had a couple opportunities
(36:40):
to shift.
Basically, I could have steppedout of a current role and
stepped into a new role.
It's funny as I'm talking abouta specific situation, but that
probably describes threedifferent times in my life.
I had to trust the Lord and nottake matters into my own hands
in terms of the Lord's timing.
And a phrase that I startedasking myself was am I
(37:02):
Ishmael-ing this?
So I took the idea of Ishmaelfrom the old Testament and was
not him as a as a person, butAbraham and Sarah had a promise
from the Lord, and then Abrahamtook matters into his own hands,
which most of us do Like, let'sjust be honest, especially as a
leader but we can take that andrun with that and kind of go on
(37:24):
our own sidelines.
And so what I had to startasking myself is where am I
trying to Ishmael this?
Where am I trying to?
This is what I believe thekingdom of God should look like,
and where am I trying to takematters into my own hands?
And a good friend of mine, who'salso a leadership coach, she
said to me Jenny, I love howyou're asking yourself this
(37:45):
question, but what does it meanto Isaac this?
Jenny, I love how you're askingyourself this question, but
what does it mean to Isaac this?
And I hear a start of flowing.
And I said that means tosurrender, that means to put my
expectations back on the altarand let God write the story.
And I have had at times whereI've had the Lord say, you are
getting ahead of me because youwere trying to write this and
(38:06):
you're not letting things playout, and for me it was pausing,
wrestling through myexpectations, the way I thought
this should be lived out, andletting God be in control, which
he already is.
The things that kind of coach methrough that are conversations
(38:29):
with those two dear friends andcalling them, texting them,
being really, really honest withthem, having trusted advisors,
having trusted people in thatbit like journaling my heart out
.
Whatever is the way that youprocess through things is going
to be how you process thingsthrough the Lord.
I read and write.
I have notebooks in front of mewith certain pens, certain
(38:52):
things like that.
Other people, they're going togo for a run, other people are
going to maybe just drive around, whatever.
That is where you get alonewith the Lord and you process
through all of that and what Ihad to do is I had to wait.
I had to wait and let the Lorddo.
And some of it, belinda, itmakes sense now on what he was
(39:13):
doing, what I didn't know andwhere I was being a cocky jerk
and some of it I still don'tunderstand.
I still don't know why did ithave to play out like this, why
did the timing work out?
And I'm just trusting the Lordknows what he was doing.
But I think I had to keep mygifts in check and not get, like
I said, too cocky of like, ifyou want someone who can come up
(39:36):
with a strategic vision,objectives, goals and a timeline
, and get once and can execute,like I'm your girl, like let's
build a team.
And sometimes it's like well,maybe I'm living that out a
little bit too strong, if thatmakes sense.
And so that's kind of been thisreoccurring theme.
(39:57):
As we talk through it, I thinkabout Moses and so I kind of
wonder, before we get to theburning books in the desert, he
was raised in Pharaoh's house.
I kind of wonder what was thatlike?
Because they knew he knew hewas raised in Pharaoh's house.
I kind of wonder what was thatlike?
Cause they knew he knew he wasa Hebrew, but eventually he ends
up running off to the desert.
I'm like he probably knew hiscalling somehow was deliver.
(40:18):
His people Like and some of thisis Jenny's inflections on the
situation but he ends upmurdering that Egyptian and he
understood his calling, but hedidn't understand the maturity
of it and he tried to depressinto things before.
It seemed like the Lord told himhe could have stood up from the
guy but like, where am Istepping into things?
Where I am taking matters intomy own hands?
(40:39):
Where am I taking matters intomy own hands before God has said
now's the time for you to do it?
And where I am overworkingbecause I don't feel like God is
working hard enough and I cansee visions of like things
coming into alignment, thingsthe Lord has shown me.
If there are things that needto be in place and you running
too far ahead, girl, and I'msaying walk, and you're like no,
(41:01):
we're going to sprint, and it'sno, you need to walk.
And that's when he gets to liveout the fullness of the
overarching thing that he's he'sdoing because it's his will and
his kingdom come, not mine, andsometimes I just kind of want
to be the one in charge.
(41:22):
So I'm still learning that one.
Belinda Gaston (41:24):
Wow, there's so much again.
I feel like I could talk to youall day, jenny.
I mean, where am I overworkingin the place that God is working
things out?
Where am I sprinting, where Ishould be walking?
And I think this is a goodplace for us to kind of end,
because leaders listen.
(41:47):
This whole conversation haspointed to a couple of truths
here, a couple of simple things.
One we are human and so we aregoing to have questions.
We're going to have difficultdays.
We're going to have fatigue.
No matter what your title is,whether you're a CEO, vp or a
business owner, a stay at homemom, no matter who you are as a
(42:09):
human, you're going to have somemoments where things get tough,
and those moments may cause youto question some things in your
faith.
That's the first thing.
The second thing that I hearJenny saying God is in control
and God has the ability to bringus through these moments if we
allow him to, if we surrenderthese things to him and not try
(42:31):
to work it out.
And that's hard for leaders,because we're supposed to handle
it right.
And then the third thing that Inoted in your conversation here
, jenny, is that you keeptalking about this pause about
the time to reflect and leaders.
It's okay for us to stop andpause, even to say I need a
(42:52):
moment.
The truth is, a good leadertakes a pause.
So I'd like to ask you, as weclose, if you have any final
thoughts that you'd like toshare.
Please do so.
And then, two, let people knowhow they can connect with you.
Dr. Jenny Carter (43:08):
So I do a little bit of consulting in the
higher education space, like oneor two schools a year.
I'll do it by word of mouth.
If someone needs somethingwhether it be on a specific
project needs some expertise ofsomeone who's worked in higher
education for a few decades, ormaybe some team building, some
different things like that Justhave someone come in and come
alongside.
Part of it is is just season oflife.
(43:29):
I have three daughters and sothat's a lot of where I'm at.
So the consulting thing issomething I'll slowly kind of do
and ramp up.
My primary work right now iswithin the seminary role.
I'm a social scientist in theseminary, which is really cool
and really fun.
So I get to take this passion Ihave for spiritual formation
and understand what that lookslike in pastors and missionaries
(43:53):
and those who are credentialedministers, and so it's a really
cool job and a really cool thingthat I got to really get to do.
That's how I feel about it.
But I think one kind of maybefinal quote of idea that I'd
like to leave you all with thiscomes from Ann Voskamp's book
the Waymaker.
Regardless of what Instagram orall the glossy ads are shilling,
(44:14):
your suffering isn't somethingthat is a unique anomaly.
Suffering is a universalexperience of all humanity.
Suffering does not mean you'recursed.
Suffering means you're human.
The question isn't why is theresuffering in my life?
But why wouldn't there besuffering?
Because such is life in abroken world.
The question is what way willyou bear this suffering?
(44:35):
I didn't know it then and I amstill learning now.
Life is really hard becausethere is the reality of being
alive.
Life is hard in a thousand waysand what comes easiest to us is
getting lost.
And I will kind of end her quotewith saying don't get lost in
all of it.
Find that God is actuallyeverything that scripture says
(44:55):
that he is.
And some ways, and sometimesthe way that we experience the
character of him is we need himto show up.
And if life was boring and flatand rosy, we wouldn't actually
get to experience his character.
(45:16):
I'm not saying, I'm notadmonishing, when bad things
happen, that those things areright, but in the midst of the
pain, in the midst of struggle,in the midst of just questions,
I believe that God will show upfor you.
Psalm 27,.
That I would have despaired.
I think the New AmericanStandard says it best.
I would have despaired unless Ibelieved that I would see the
(45:36):
goodness of the Lord in the landof the living.
And so it may take years, itmay be hard, it may all those
things that you're experiencing,but the goodness of the living
God, I believe, will be faithfulin your life and in your story.
The goodness will be there inthe midst of your questions.
In the midst of all of that, Ido think prayers will be
answered.
I do think that you will seegoodness.
(45:57):
I do think that we will seedeliverance.
It may not be the time or theway that we expect, but he's
still going to be true to hischaracter.
Belinda Gaston (46:07):
That is an excellent way to end this
episode of the Graced to Leadpodcast.
Ginny, thank you so much foryour transparency and for your
practical advice on this subject.
We appreciate you, thank you, Iappreciate it, thank you and to
our listeners, I appreciate you, as always, for listening to
(46:28):
the Graced to Lead podcast.
Remember, we're on every week.
Episodes launch every Thursday,so you can find us on every
podcast platform of choice ApplePodcasts, you can find us on
Spotify, on Google, wherever youget your podcasts.
And remember, you are indeedgraced to lead Bye-bye.
If you've ever doubted God while showing up
strong for everyone else, ifyou've wrestled with questions
about your faith but felt likeyou had to keep going anyway,
listen, you are in the rightplace.
In this episode of the Gracedto Lead podcast, we're talking
with Dr Jenny Carter.
She's a leader, researcher andminister.
(00:20):
She's the professor ofministerial calling at Evangel
University and assistantacademic director at the
Assemblies of God TheologicalSeminary.
She spent more than 20 yearsstudying and teaching spiritual
formation.
Listen, this conversation ishonest, it's freeing and I
(00:41):
believe it really is the kind ofconversation that we don't talk
enough about.
We don't talk about howspiritual struggle shows up in
our lives, especially as leaders, and what to do with it.
So let's talk about the faithbehind the leadership.
Ready, let's get into it.
All right?
(01:12):
Welcome to the Graced to Leadpodcast.
I am Belinda Gaston, your host,and we are in season two.
Y'all, and it has been anamazing season so far.
Today is no different than therest of our interviews.
We have an amazing guest withus.
We have Dr Jenny Carter in theroom.
Dr. Jenny Carter (01:33):
I'm really glad to be here.
So thank you for the invitation, thank you for the opportunity
to share my story and hopefullysome of the things that the Lord
has walked me through can be anencouragement to others.
Belinda Gaston (01:45):
Thank you, we're excited to have you.
I want to start with yousharing a bit about your work
and what led you to focus onspiritual formation and faith
through trials.
Dr. Jenny Carter (01:58):
Sure.
So I currently work at theAssemblies of God Theological
Seminary.
I am a professor, but aresearch professor looking at
calling in the life of theminister over the lifetime.
But I have worked in highereducation for 22 years and
gotten to focus on spiritualformation for a good chunk of
(02:22):
that time and that's honestlybeen a driving force for me and
a passion for me.
But kind of where did I getstarted in all of this?
I went to college, went to aChristian college, was a
ministry major and was reallyexcited about discipleship and
wanting to understand what doesit mean first for me to be an
(02:43):
authentic follower of Jesus, tohave a real, deep, true faith,
and what does it like to createthat for others?
And so, as a idealistic 20something, went to college and
thought I would land on staff ata church, which would have been
a great job, would have been agreat way to live out calling.
I thought I would be writingdiscipleship curriculum and
(03:07):
encouraging people to lead andserve, creating spaces for that
to happen, for people to justgrow in their faith.
Through just the way that theLord happened to lead me, it
seems my calling and my space tooften work was not going to be
in a church, but actually withinhigher education, and so I
(03:28):
thought I would go to graduateschool.
I had a couple of differentideas, just love learning, and
ended up doing a master's degreein higher education and in one
of my classes called vocationalformation was sitting in like
kind of a semi-circle like theylike that can happen in some of
those smaller classes reallyconversation-based, and the
(03:48):
professor who was a campuspastor at Bethel University in
the Twin Cities area.
She was just going throughspiritual formation, development
theory and what that looks like, the way people develop.
It was really helpful tounderstand in different seasons
of life, in different seasons oflife, in different phases of
life, what can happenspiritually in terms of the
(04:09):
lives of people.
She was starting to unpack somethings for me and, I remember,
for other students and it wasone of those moments where I was
forever changed by sitting inthat room because as an
undergrad I went to college andthought I'm going to learn all
about God, I'm going to learnall about scripture, I'm going
to learn all these things, whichI did, and I thought I would
(04:30):
come out of college with thisreally solid faith and what I
came out of college with, Idefinitely knew more about the
Lord.
But I had a lot of questionsand I went to college and
thought I'm just going to bemore solid than I am now and was
leaving college wasn't surewhat my next step was, wasn't
sure where I was going to land.
(04:50):
A couple of years later Ilanded in grad school and was
really thankful for that.
But I remember another studentlooking at me in class one day
and was just talking about Ihave questions about why the
church looks like it does and ifthe Bible says this, why do
people live like this?
And was really unpacking.
Some of my experiences growingup in the church with unhealthy
(05:10):
leaders and just kind of it cameto a head at like 21, 22.
And I said you know, Iquestioned some of these things.
I never gave up on Jesus, Inever gave up on faith, which
sometimes that is part ofpeople's stories and I want to
give them space for that if theykind of ask those deep
questions.
And I remember her looking atme and saying I used to respect
you and now I'm not even sureyou're a Christian.
(05:32):
And to be honest, belinda, itgutted me.
It gutted me so hard because Iwas like, oh wow, I was
vulnerable and I was transparent.
And now she's like you're notgood enough to be part of the
crew anymore.
And I was transparent and nowshe's like you're not good
enough to be part of the crewanymore.
And I don't know that that washer intention, like I say that
like in jest, to show you myvulnerability in that moment.
This is not to slam her.
(05:54):
So when I'm in that grad class acouple years later, the campus
pastor from Bethel, one of thecampus pastors, and she's
unpacking all this and she talksabout as young adults, what
you'll see is they as teenagerswe can often have dependent
(06:15):
faith, faith that we kind oftake on from parents, pastors,
leaders, coaches, and we justsort of assume our faith from
others.
It doesn't mean we don't haveour own thoughts and all that,
and in some ways that's reallygood.
I understand that now as aparent, but we take that on.
And then as you move into youngadulthood you kind of go to
independent faith where you kindof the pendulum swings to the
other side and it becomes verymuch your own.
(06:37):
But in that process you canquestion a lot of things and the
healthy place to land isindependent faith where you have
a healthy balance of your ownindividualized faith in the Lord
but you also have a healthybalance of community.
It's totally normal to askquestions.
It ended up impacting mymaster's thesis.
It impacted my dissertationwhen I got my doctorate which
(07:01):
are both in higher education isto talk about spiritual struggle
First off is just a normal partof life and it's one of those
things where I look back now andlike we can see it in scripture
, we can see it in greatChristian leaders.
I continue to learn aboutdifferent people who ask
questions and it doesn't meanthat they're bad, it's actually
really really healthy.
(07:21):
I would say some of it islearning, asking those questions
in the right spaces.
We want to be authentic asleaders but sometimes you know
sharing we're not going to shareall that necessary from the
platforms that we're standing on, but I've wanted to create
spaces for people to say youknow, this just doesn't make
sense or this was hard, and tocome alongside and say, yeah, me
(07:43):
too, I've been there or I maybehad something, maybe a
different set of questions,different set of circumstances.
But to normalize, there aretimes when doubt is a part of
the process.
A book that was reallyimpactful for me is Reaching for
an Invisible God by PhilipYancey.
It was like somebody wrote awhole book where it was like,
hey, jenny, what you've beenasking and what you've
(08:05):
experienced is absolutely, 100%part of the journey, and that's
propelling me, 20 some yearslater, to say that, especially
for women, god's not asking youto do something that you may be
asking of yourself to perform ata level, or to not ever have
questions or anything.
Belinda Gaston (08:26):
Thank you for your transparency in sharing
this, because I think this issomething we don't talk about.
We have questions sometimes aswe walk out our faith or we go
through our faith journeys, butit's almost as if there is a
penalty or punishment, as you'vekind of described in your
interaction for questioning it'syou lose respect or how dare
(08:49):
you question God, and I lovethat you've said and shared that
it's okay to have questions, sothank you for sharing that.
I also really like that you'vedescribed this walk from
dependent faith to independentfaith and you talked about it in
this in the kind of age rangeof the.
(09:12):
You know the 20 something yearold who's kind of moving out of
their parents home into a moreindependent space and really
thinking more and doing more ontheir own and doing more on
their own.
But I've met women inleadership who have been much
older than that, that still havea dependent faith, and so I do
(09:35):
appreciate that process.
We're going to tie this intoleadership in a minute, but I
really want you to understandwhat this kind of spiritual
struggle looks like first andunderstand what that is.
So I'd like to talk a littlebit more about this movement
from dependent faith toindependent faith.
Can you maybe give somecharacteristics of someone who
(09:58):
has a dependent faith say maybetheir parents' faith or kind of
the tenants that they kind ofgrew up with, versus someone who
has independent faith?
Dr. Jenny Carter (10:11):
Sure.
So one thing I feel like thatis, I'm going back to that
classroom experience it was Juneof 2003, is when she unpacked
it.
She said if you never move fromhaving a completely dependent
faith and I will say in my storyI've probably landed pretty
similar not the exact samespaces, but pretty similar to
(10:33):
the faith I grew up with itwasn't it needed to be tested.
But if you're someone who justlives in dependent faith, you're
just going to keep assuming theworldview of the people that
you're around.
And so there's a book.
It was published, I think itwas like in the seventies.
It's a little book by a mannamed John Westerhoff Will Our
(10:54):
Children have Faith?
And so he is talking about theway that we do spiritual
formation in our churches.
Are we doing it where we justwant people to become like us to
an almost unhealthy extent,where they're not going to be
able to own it?
They're not going to have theirown identity, their own
honestly, let's just be honestrelationship with the Lord.
And what does it look like?
Am I hearing the voice of theHoly Spirit?
(11:14):
Am I hearing the voice ofothers?
There's godly counselors thatare so, so important.
But am I doing this to pleasethe Lord, or am I doing this to
please other people?
And we know the Apostle Paulkind of warns us against that in
the book of Galatians as he'stalking to those people, that if
we're constantly trying toplease others, but if we're
constantly trying to pleaseothers and not ultimately please
(11:37):
the Lord, then we're reallykind of giving up on salvation,
because that just turns into aform of legalism.
And so I think with everythingthere's good parameters.
But what does it look like?
These are questions I'm stillasking myself, like I said,
decades later.
And that's where you allow theHoly Spirit to, in the quiet,
just speak to us and say am Ilooking to what others have told
(12:00):
me or am I the one studyingscripture?
Am I looking through whatothers have told me or am I the
one studying scripture?
Am I the one listening for yourvoice or am I just running to
someone else in this dependentmodel where, yes, community has
a place?
But am I not allowing myself tojust wrestle alone with the
(12:21):
Lord?
A spiritual struggle can take ondifferent forms.
Self to just wrestle alone withthe Lord, a spiritual struggle
can take on different forms.
Spiritual struggle can besomething that is connected with
, maybe some sort of event wherethere's some sort of big
stressor.
So you'd have a health crisiscompletely unexpectedly.
That might cause some spiritualstruggle.
You could have a bad experiencewith church and experience
(12:43):
church hurt, which most of usprobably have, let's be honest,
because there are broken peoplerunning our churches and running
our organizations.
There are so many things thatwe can.
Just we're kind of told to likeWhite-knuckle the situation just
really dig in and we want to bestrong, but we also don't
(13:03):
process through what the pain is, what the things are that are
challenging, how pieces cometogether, and so it could also
be something personal.
That's in me.
Am I lacking motivation?
Am I just feel like I'm nothearing the Lord?
Am I?
I just feel like I'm nothearing the Lord?
But within that, like, I thinkwe have to, like I said,
(13:26):
normalize it and then askourselves good questions, to
pause.
And I used to live, I used tolive in Florida.
Even I lived in central Florida, so I wasn't right next to
either of the coast.
But just I would say, can youget away?
And get away, it could be inyour car.
I would say, for me it would bea bottle, you know, is there a
body of water and just askquestions and then let the Holy
(13:48):
Spirit do his work, and I thinkthis is an ongoing journey for
us.
But am I allowing myself toreally rest on that rock solid
foundation that is him, or am Ilooking to others for my worth?
And so I think it kind of, isit?
Some of these things can kindof unravel where am I, where am
(14:09):
I getting my worth from?
Where am I getting my securityfrom, or getting my sense of
safety from, as my strength, asmy security, as my worth, or am
I allowing those things?
Am I asking from the peoplearound me too much, where I'm
relying on them in an unhealthyway that it's almost can become
an idol, and so any good thingcan become an idol.
(14:31):
But in that, I think the Lordwants to meet us when we have
those hard questions, and he'snot mad.
We can want to say, and it saysour prayers.
But when we look at the book ofPsalms, there's a lot of lament
, there's a lot of David saying,hey, this doesn't make sense,
this is injustice.
Belinda Gaston (14:47):
Hey, this is not what I signed up for.
Dr. Jenny Carter (14:48):
And don't run away from those feelings.
But I think when we're leaninginto that dependent faith, we're
trying to do something more toperform, to get approval.
I think that's what can evolvein over time.
Like I said, there's a seasonwhere that's good, there's a
season where that is helpful,that gets us started, but that's
(15:08):
not meant to sustain us withour whole journey in life.
I hope that answers yourquestion.
Belinda Gaston (15:10):
It does.
It's so timely because I oftenthink that this struggle that we
have spiritually, as you said,it can be life events, it can be
something that happens, butparticularly where we are right
now in the world, where it seemsas if what we have been used to
and government and the economyand even in our educational
(15:34):
spaces has been it's almost beenshaken a little, it's like
shaken and things aren't the waythey used to be.
I can see how many people arehaving these feelings of what's
weird about my faith andstruggling spiritually, and so
the reason I wanted to have youon this show, jenny, is because
(15:56):
for leaders it's real foreveryone.
But for leaders I think it'sespecially difficult because not
only are you dealing with yourown spiritual struggles, but you
are responsible for leadingother people who also may be
dealing with their spiritualstruggles, even in corporate
(16:16):
spaces.
So I think that's why I was soexcited about this conversation.
So you gave some greatresources and for our listeners
we will put the references thatDr Jenny is mentioning in this
conversation.
We'll put that in the shownotes for you.
You've already talked about whywe should acknowledge these
struggles.
And so I want to talk a littlebit about the impact on our
(16:40):
leadership for the women who arelistening to this show and I
found out a couple of days agothat some men are listening to
this shows of your men.
Thank you for listening.
We welcome you too.
But for the women who are inleadership positions, whether
they're leading in corporatespaces or like they're
entrepreneurs or they're leadingin ministries or organizations,
and they may be dealing withspiritual struggle, how?
(17:05):
does it show up for these people, especially if they are high
capacity leaders?
How does it tend to show up inleaders?
Dr. Jenny Carter (17:16):
I think it can show up in a variety of ways.
I think one of the questions wehave to continually process
through is am I living arealistic version of myself or
am I striving to be this idealversion of myself?
And ideal, I think, sometimescan be helpful, because if
you're a leader, you're probablya high achiever.
(17:37):
You probably are in thatposition because the Lord gave
you that opportunity to be thereand because the way that he's
wired you and the way that he'sgifted you but people recognize
something in you and you canaccomplish things, and so you
have past successes that havebrought you to that place, to
that role, to that title, tothat, honestly, that sphere of
(17:58):
influence.
But in that we can be in aspace where we're always, always
producing, and we have to makesure that there is health inside
of us.
And that is a continual,ongoing journey of working
through our brokenness,partnering, like allowing the
Holy Spirit to do the work thathe wants to do in us.
And so I think what can happenis that there are things that
(18:23):
weren't we didn't realize wereimpacting the way that we lead
honestly, the way that we live,and as we start to go through
some sort of spiritual strugglewhich could be initiated by a
crisis.
It could be not, but there arethings in our story that maybe
we haven't dealt with, that wedidn't know were problems, and
that we got to start to dealwith them.
And so as we we move into newspaces, we move into new things,
(18:45):
as we walk in through differentthings, we realize that maybe
there were some.
You might walk through a bigtrauma.
We would say some of ourfriends in the psychology space
and the counseling space and thetherapy space would say big T,
but there might be a big Ttrauma, but there can also be a
lot of little T traumas say bigT, but there might be a big T
trauma, but there can also be alot of little T traumas.
And so as we walk through thosethings, we realize like, oh,
(19:07):
that thing, that now that I'mhere, now that I am in a space
that's more vulnerable, that Iam maybe experiencing some sort
of questions.
And the questioning is whatactually leads us to independent
faith.
The questioning because westart asking like do I believe
that?
So-and-so believes it, but do Ibelieve it?
What is true of God?
But if we can, if we realizethat maybe we have a thousand
(19:32):
paper cuts.
It may not be this big gapingwound, but there might be a
thousand paper cuts on our hands.
You know what that's like whenyou have a paper cut and then
you use hands.
It's awful and it kind of yes,it's awful, it's awful, and so
both of those can bring it out,and it can be, you know, I had
(19:52):
some coping skills or I had somebehaviors or I had some things
that maybe served me really wellto get through some sort of not
great experience in my life.
But it's not going to continueto serve me well and the Lord's
going to work that out in you.
And so a thing that Ruth HaleyBarton said that has been
impacting me and helping meprocess through things that I
didn't know were still impactingme from when I was a teenager
(20:15):
and in my forties.
But when we repress what is realin our lives and just keep
soldering on, we get weary fromholding it all in and eventually
it leaks out in ways that aredamaging to ourselves and to
others.
On the other hand, theexperience of God, unconditional
love and presence during thosesolitary times when we are not
doing anything for God, is ourgreatest human need, and we are
(20:39):
called to do things for thekingdom and it's like a strength
and a weakness, it's like thegood and the bad.
There's like kind of both sidesof the coin.
So we're doing things for thekingdom, but when it becomes all
about that there and we cankind of get a little caught up
(20:59):
in ourselves, then we can forgetthat we are finite, that we are
humans, that he has created us,that he has called us, but we
can kind of get kind of on thisisland of our aloneness.
And that's where we rememberthat we need God's presence.
That is actually already therewith us.
The unconditional love isalready there.
The space to ask questions isalready there.
(21:20):
God invites our questions.
I used to shun questions becauseI was like those are for weak
people and that's not me and Idon't want to be weak.
Well, the Lord totally allowsus to ask questions.
But where can I find the spaceto do that?
And that's where I think theindependent faith comes in.
We find the people that we cantrust.
It can be a mentor.
(21:41):
It might need to be a therapist.
It could be a leadership coach.
It could be a good friend.
I have two friends.
I call them my junk friendsbecause I love them yearly and
they will take me junk.
They will take me on my baddays, they'll take me when I
want to yell or when thingsaren't making sense or whatever.
But I trust them with myvulnerability and so we have to
(22:04):
have those safe spaces and sowhen we're walking through
things and we have questions andwe're still pouring out and
leading others and those are thepeople that can come alongside
us and we can be real with maybethat we can't necessarily be
from the platform, but if Idon't deal with my stuff, it's
going to come out.
(22:25):
I wish I remember who I heardsay this.
But it's like we all haveshrapnel that we kind of put out
in the spaces that we're in,but you need to be careful what
that shrapnel looks like.
And so if you're not walkingthrough and dealing with those
things with the Holy Spirit andin the right spaces, it's going
to come out in other areas.
That's where we need to groundour self-awareness.
(22:46):
We all have those blind spots,but if, whatever that looks like
for you and how you can be thebest version of who God has
created you to be, you have tofind those tools to help you or
it is going to come out in waysthat are unhealthy and, honestly
, we're going to have toapologize for things that we
don't want to necessarily haveto apologize for.
(23:08):
And so I'm kind of thinkingright now in second Corinthians,
chapter three, where theapostle Paul talks about our
work as ministers.
So whether you're a minister inthe pulpit, you're a minister in
the marketplace, you're aminister in the classroom, in
the boardroom, wherever thatlooks like, we can just say the
confidence that we have this iscoming from verse four that we
(23:28):
have with the Lord is throughthe work of Jesus.
Not that we are sufficient toclaim anything from ourselves,
but our sufficiency has comefrom God, who has made us
sufficient to be ministers ofthe new covenant.
Your sufficiency comes from him.
He's the one that's gifted you,he's the one that's given you
those spaces, he's the onethat's given you those
(23:48):
opportunities.
And so I look at that passageof scripture and just kind of
remind myself of that.
But continuing to grow and lookfor the opportunities of what
means to be healthy, what doesit mean to be whole?
What does it mean to be adisciple of Jesus, is allowing
the opportunities for thosethings to be worked through and
just recognize as much asspiritual struggle is normal, so
(24:11):
is my need to continue to growand let the Holy Spirit work
things out in me.
Belinda Gaston (24:20):
Wow, dr Cheney, you said a lot so for our
listeners.
I know that many of you who areleading have been in this space
, particularly now, where youhave had some questions in your
(24:40):
faith because of an event,whether it's a large event or a
small event, something that'shappening right now or something
that happened in your pastthat's coming back and you're
trying to figure out.
Well, why am I responding thatway?
And what I hear Dr Jenny sayingis, if you don't address this
(25:01):
thing now, if you don't giveyourself that time and space to
question, to seek God, forwhatever it is that you need,
that it will manifest itselfthrough your leadership in ways
that you may not have intended.
And that comment about having toapologize we as leaders, we
(25:22):
want to be willing to say we'rewrong, but do you want to place
yourself in a position where youhave to consistently apologize
because you're not dealing withthe struggle that you're having?
You're not even acknowledgingthe struggle that you're having
spiritually.
I want that to sit for a secondfor our listeners, perhaps
(25:46):
listeners the frustration you'reexperiencing as leaders is tied
to some small or largespiritual struggle that you want
to acknowledge, mm-hmm.
So I love that and I also, drCarter appreciate.
(26:09):
I keep calling you Dr Carter,dr Janie, dr Carter, I really
like Dr Janie some moments.
I like Dr Carter some moments.
Dr Janie is perfect.
Dr. Jenny Carter (26:16):
It's ironic I have the credential, but I'm
really just Janie, especially inthis space.
If we were in the same room, Iwould imagine big cups of coffee
that we would be sharing andtalking.
Yes.
Belinda Gaston (26:26):
Yes.
So for our listeners, I wantyou to tell me also when you
hear this if you like, dr Jennyor Dr Carter, we're going to
have a little poll there.
But listen, jenny, I appreciatethat you gave people permission
to ask questions.
I think that sometimes asleaders, even as believers, we
forget that we are human right.
There's this expectation thatin your leading in this space,
(26:48):
you have to be a certain way,and so I appreciate that and I
appreciate the quote that yougave us.
And so we've talked about whatspiritual struggle looks like.
We've talked about going from adependent faith to independent
faith.
We've talked about how thesespiritual struggles impact our
(27:09):
leadership, and by now I imagineour listeners are like wow, I
mean, this is kind of a heavyconversation necessary.
So I'd like to start talkingabout some practical advice and
some encouragement for the womanwho's listening right now, who
may have just had an aha moment.
They may have just heardsomething and said they're like,
(27:31):
oh, my goodness, I'm in themiddle of a spiritual struggle
and that's why I feelspiritually depleted or even
weary in my leadership decisionsand the things that I have to
do.
Dr. Jenny Carter (27:44):
Yet I still am responsible for leading these
things, for doing this programfor providing strategy for this
organization you putting moreexpectations on yourself than
God, the God of the universe, isplacing on you, because I think
(28:17):
at times well, let me take astep back.
I think the root of a lot ofspiritual struggle whether it be
the way life circumstances haveworked out, the way things may
like an unexpected relationshipbattle, whether it be, maybe,
especially with other believers,unexpected relationship battle,
whether it be, maybe,especially with other believers
those are her heart it all comesback to unmet expectations.
We have unwritten,unarticulated, subconscious
expectations of the way thingsare supposed to be, and I don't
(28:44):
mean that to be down in thedumps, but just like, like or
pull us into it, like you weresaying, like a really
pessimistic space, like I justwant to create space and
acknowledge, like this is theholistic part of what we're
living through.
But what were my expectationsand how they not lived out?
I think those are greatquestions that we can ask
ourselves and allow the HolySpirit to just kind of unravel
it.
And then the character of Godis always true.
The character of God is alwaystrue.
(29:06):
The challenge that I have tosay is what were my expectations
of God?
And it's probably theexpectations that have failed me
, not the Lord and people havefailed us.
People have hurt us, life hasfailed us.
Life has hurt us.
It could be an attack of theenemy, you know what I mean.
There could be a variety ofthings and what that is, but are
we expecting some sort of levelof performance that is just not
(29:30):
at all what God is asking of us.
And if you can process throughthat and let yourself just
answer that question, that willhelp you develop a little bit
more realistic expectations ofyourself, because you may be
demanding something that God isnot asking for you.
In Psalm, chapter 16, thepsalmist says the boundary lines
(29:53):
have fallen for me in pleasantplaces.
The psalmist is talking aboutthe land allotments in Israel.
But for me I was broke down intears with a leadership coach
almost three years ago nowbecause it was so much of the
pressure that I was feeling wasfrom expectations that I had set
(30:14):
up on myself that were justunrealistic.
So if maybe the unrealisticexpectation you have yourself is
you should never have anyquestions, if you're a good
leader, you know what I meanLike that is not realistic and
you eventually will crash.
You eventually will crash.
And the psychology spaces whowill talk about glimmers?
So we know about triggers, weknow what triggers are, but what
(30:36):
are glimmers?
Where do you see the goodness ofGod and kind of make note of
that in the midst of all of it,because so much of what we walk
through as believers is both andit is.
We have joy and sadnesssimultaneously.
We have good, we see thepromises of God fulfilled, and
(30:57):
there is heartache, there iscancer, there is just whatever.
There is injustice, and now youhave this other thing and I
would just sit there and sit inthe pain of it.
Injustice, and now you had thisother thing and I would just
sit there and sit in the pain ofit, sit in the sorrow of it.
But the thing about the trafficlight is, I acknowledged the
grief but I didn't perseverateon it because of traffic.
(31:19):
I had to start driving when thelight changed to red or I'd get
honked at.
But it had almost become thisspiritual practice for me where
I grieved it, I prayed throughit, but I had to keep moving on.
And so walk through thoseexpectations.
Acknowledge it, but allowyourself to experience the good,
to see the good.
A lot of what we live through,honestly, until the end of
Revelation, is man in thewilderness, like we can be in
(31:42):
these wilderness spaces.
I'm not saying the promisedland is maybe never coming.
You can kind of use that, someof the Old Testament ideas there
, but you're going to have bothand there will be provision in
the wilderness.
And if you're in a space thatfeels like that, allow yourself
to just kind of crack open yourheart, let that Holy Spirit, let
the oil of the Holy Spirit goin and say, okay, lord, can I
(32:05):
also see your provision?
Can I also see where thegoodness and mercy have followed
me all the days of my life andthat I am still dwelling in your
house in the midst of all of it?
I think also I would allowyourself to just look at
scripture through the lens ofread the whole story.
Because they had struggle, theyhad things that didn't work out.
(32:28):
The apostle Paul, you know,three times I asked the Lord to
take this thing from me and hesaid nope, my grace is
sufficient for you.
Some of the ideas in thatparticular passage of scripture
is talk about the grace and thestrength of the Lord.
But if you look in the originallanguage is it grows into
completion, like it comes intoits fullness in the midst of the
(32:50):
trial and the midst of thestruggle.
But that's also him saying Iasked God for this and he told
me something else, and sothere'd be grace there, but he
still asked it.
He still asked for the betteranswer.
He still asked for the betterthing, what seemed like the
better thing for him.
And so, I think, still ask him,still make those requests,
still make those requests of theLord, like for rescue, for
(33:12):
deliverance, for all thosethings, but know that he has not
abandoned you in the process,when the answer doesn't look
like what you thought it shouldbe.
Belinda Gaston (33:20):
That is very practical advice.
You asked us to examine ourexpectations, and that one is a
huge one.
You could have dropped the micright there, jenny, with just
that one, because that's onethat I think many of us are
walking through every day.
We have to tell ourselves, like, girl, manage your own
expectations.
Or how about we reject theexpectations of others?
(33:42):
That's not realistic.
Or what expectations have weput on God?
I think that's a great question.
And then you talked aboutlooking for the glimpses, which
I've not even heard before.
So I love this idea of lookingfor those glimpses, those
moments where the promises ofGod have happened in your life,
and it's daily.
I think if we're intentionalabout looking for the glimpses,
(34:04):
you'll find it.
I remember my grandmother toldme a long time ago be careful
what you seek, you'll find it.
I remember my grandmother toldme a long time ago be careful
what you seek, because you'llfind it.
And it never made sense to me.
It never made sense.
I was like, okay, why are youtalking?
I used to call my grandmotherpumpkin Pumpkin.
This isn't making sense, butnow that I'm older I get it.
What you are seeking, you willfind.
And so if we are intentionalabout seeking the glimpses.
(34:24):
We'll find the glimpses, willfind the glimpses.
I love that.
And then the last thing, thelast tip that you shared was
reading the full story in theBible.
I know it's easy for us to takeone verse and you know, as
again referencing my grandma,she's a big part, she was a big
part of my life, jenny, so Ireferenced her a lot.
But taking that one scriptureand making it preach and it's
(34:46):
like, well, what about whathappened before and what
happened after?
And let's look at the wholestory here Abraham was like me,
or Sarah was like me, or findingyourself in the scripture is
really important.
So I think those are threereally practical tips.
I'd love for you, if you'recomfortable, before we go, to
(35:06):
share maybe a personal story oran example of a time when you
had to lead while wrestling withGod or your own faith questions
, or even the story of someoneyou know that has had to do that
.
I'd love for you to share thatand how they handled the
situation or how you handled thesituation.
Dr. Jenny Carter (35:28):
I have been in situations where I'm driven for
excellence.
One thing my husband will tellme often is he's very, very wise
.
Sometimes I get mad at himbecause he's wise, because I
don't like what he's saying,even though he's right.
But your biggest strength isalso your weakness, and so I
continually want to understandthe giftings that God has given
(35:50):
me.
In my drive for excellence canmaybe pull myself or others, it
can actually become a weakness,because I can be driven for
excellence so much that it's nothealthy and it's not submitted
honestly to the Lordship ofJesus.
But I have been in situationswhere I was just I didn't like
the circumstances around me interms of the organizations.
(36:13):
I was critical and I was.
It was one of those.
I'm going to shake my fist atGod and say you know, if I was
in charge, I would do thisbetter, not like oh, I need to
be above this leader.
I meant just the way that thewhole environment was being
played out and what I had to dois I had a couple opportunities
(36:40):
to shift.
Basically, I could have steppedout of a current role and
stepped into a new role.
It's funny as I'm talking abouta specific situation, but that
probably describes threedifferent times in my life.
I had to trust the Lord and nottake matters into my own hands
in terms of the Lord's timing.
And a phrase that I startedasking myself was am I
(37:02):
Ishmael-ing this?
So I took the idea of Ishmaelfrom the old Testament and was
not him as a as a person, butAbraham and Sarah had a promise
from the Lord, and then Abrahamtook matters into his own hands,
which most of us do Like, let'sjust be honest, especially as a
leader but we can take that andrun with that and kind of go on
(37:24):
our own sidelines.
And so what I had to startasking myself is where am I
trying to Ishmael this?
Where am I trying to?
This is what I believe thekingdom of God should look like,
and where am I trying to takematters into my own hands?
And a good friend of mine, who'salso a leadership coach, she
said to me Jenny, I love howyou're asking yourself this
(37:45):
question, but what does it meanto Isaac this?
Jenny, I love how you're askingyourself this question, but
what does it mean to Isaac this?
And I hear a start of flowing.
And I said that means tosurrender, that means to put my
expectations back on the altarand let God write the story.
And I have had at times whereI've had the Lord say, you are
getting ahead of me because youwere trying to write this and
(38:06):
you're not letting things playout, and for me it was pausing,
wrestling through myexpectations, the way I thought
this should be lived out, andletting God be in control, which
he already is.
The things that kind of coach methrough that are conversations
(38:29):
with those two dear friends andcalling them, texting them,
being really, really honest withthem, having trusted advisors,
having trusted people in thatbit like journaling my heart out
.
Whatever is the way that youprocess through things is going
to be how you process thingsthrough the Lord.
I read and write.
I have notebooks in front of mewith certain pens, certain
(38:52):
things like that.
Other people, they're going togo for a run, other people are
going to maybe just drive around, whatever.
That is where you get alonewith the Lord and you process
through all of that and what Ihad to do is I had to wait.
I had to wait and let the Lorddo.
And some of it, belinda, itmakes sense now on what he was
(39:13):
doing, what I didn't know andwhere I was being a cocky jerk
and some of it I still don'tunderstand.
I still don't know why did ithave to play out like this, why
did the timing work out?
And I'm just trusting the Lordknows what he was doing.
But I think I had to keep mygifts in check and not get, like
I said, too cocky of like, ifyou want someone who can come up
(39:36):
with a strategic vision,objectives, goals and a timeline
, and get once and can execute,like I'm your girl, like let's
build a team.
And sometimes it's like well,maybe I'm living that out a
little bit too strong, if thatmakes sense.
And so that's kind of been thisreoccurring theme.
(39:57):
As we talk through it, I thinkabout Moses and so I kind of
wonder, before we get to theburning books in the desert, he
was raised in Pharaoh's house.
I kind of wonder what was thatlike?
Because they knew he knew hewas raised in Pharaoh's house.
I kind of wonder what was thatlike?
Cause they knew he knew he wasa Hebrew, but eventually he ends
up running off to the desert.
I'm like he probably knew hiscalling somehow was deliver.
(40:18):
His people Like and some of thisis Jenny's inflections on the
situation but he ends upmurdering that Egyptian and he
understood his calling, but hedidn't understand the maturity
of it and he tried to depressinto things before.
It seemed like the Lord told himhe could have stood up from the
guy but like, where am Istepping into things?
Where I am taking matters intomy own hands?
(40:39):
Where am I taking matters intomy own hands before God has said
now's the time for you to do it?
And where I am overworkingbecause I don't feel like God is
working hard enough and I cansee visions of like things
coming into alignment, thingsthe Lord has shown me.
If there are things that needto be in place and you running
too far ahead, girl, and I'msaying walk, and you're like no,
(41:01):
we're going to sprint, and it'sno, you need to walk.
And that's when he gets to liveout the fullness of the
overarching thing that he's he'sdoing because it's his will and
his kingdom come, not mine, andsometimes I just kind of want
to be the one in charge.
(41:22):
So I'm still learning that one.
Belinda Gaston (41:24):
Wow, there's so much again.
I feel like I could talk to youall day, jenny.
I mean, where am I overworkingin the place that God is working
things out?
Where am I sprinting, where Ishould be walking?
And I think this is a goodplace for us to kind of end,
because leaders listen.
(41:47):
This whole conversation haspointed to a couple of truths
here, a couple of simple things.
One we are human and so we aregoing to have questions.
We're going to have difficultdays.
We're going to have fatigue.
No matter what your title is,whether you're a CEO, vp or a
business owner, a stay at homemom, no matter who you are as a
(42:09):
human, you're going to have somemoments where things get tough,
and those moments may cause youto question some things in your
faith.
That's the first thing.
The second thing that I hearJenny saying God is in control
and God has the ability to bringus through these moments if we
allow him to, if we surrenderthese things to him and not try
(42:31):
to work it out.
And that's hard for leaders,because we're supposed to handle
it right.
And then the third thing that Inoted in your conversation here
, jenny, is that you keeptalking about this pause about
the time to reflect and leaders.
It's okay for us to stop andpause, even to say I need a
(42:52):
moment.
The truth is, a good leadertakes a pause.
So I'd like to ask you, as weclose, if you have any final
thoughts that you'd like toshare.
Please do so.
And then, two, let people knowhow they can connect with you.
Dr. Jenny Carter (43:08):
So I do a little bit of consulting in the
higher education space, like oneor two schools a year.
I'll do it by word of mouth.
If someone needs somethingwhether it be on a specific
project needs some expertise ofsomeone who's worked in higher
education for a few decades, ormaybe some team building, some
different things like that Justhave someone come in and come
alongside.
Part of it is is just season oflife.
(43:29):
I have three daughters and sothat's a lot of where I'm at.
So the consulting thing issomething I'll slowly kind of do
and ramp up.
My primary work right now iswithin the seminary role.
I'm a social scientist in theseminary, which is really cool
and really fun.
So I get to take this passion Ihave for spiritual formation
and understand what that lookslike in pastors and missionaries
(43:53):
and those who are credentialedministers, and so it's a really
cool job and a really cool thingthat I got to really get to do.
That's how I feel about it.
But I think one kind of maybefinal quote of idea that I'd
like to leave you all with thiscomes from Ann Voskamp's book
the Waymaker.
Regardless of what Instagram orall the glossy ads are shilling,
(44:14):
your suffering isn't somethingthat is a unique anomaly.
Suffering is a universalexperience of all humanity.
Suffering does not mean you'recursed.
Suffering means you're human.
The question isn't why is theresuffering in my life?
But why wouldn't there besuffering?
Because such is life in abroken world.
The question is what way willyou bear this suffering?
(44:35):
I didn't know it then and I amstill learning now.
Life is really hard becausethere is the reality of being
alive.
Life is hard in a thousand waysand what comes easiest to us is
getting lost.
And I will kind of end her quotewith saying don't get lost in
all of it.
Find that God is actuallyeverything that scripture says
(44:55):
that he is.
And some ways, and sometimesthe way that we experience the
character of him is we need himto show up.
And if life was boring and flatand rosy, we wouldn't actually
get to experience his character.
(45:16):
I'm not saying, I'm notadmonishing, when bad things
happen, that those things areright, but in the midst of the
pain, in the midst of struggle,in the midst of just questions,
I believe that God will show upfor you.
Psalm 27,.
That I would have despaired.
I think the New AmericanStandard says it best.
I would have despaired unless Ibelieved that I would see the
(45:36):
goodness of the Lord in the landof the living.
And so it may take years, itmay be hard, it may all those
things that you're experiencing,but the goodness of the living
God, I believe, will be faithfulin your life and in your story.
The goodness will be there inthe midst of your questions.
In the midst of all of that, Ido think prayers will be
answered.
I do think that you will seegoodness.
(45:57):
I do think that we will seedeliverance.
It may not be the time or theway that we expect, but he's
still going to be true to hischaracter.
Belinda Gaston (46:07):
That is an excellent way to end this
episode of the Graced to Leadpodcast.
Ginny, thank you so much foryour transparency and for your
practical advice on this subject.
We appreciate you, thank you, Iappreciate it, thank you and to
our listeners, I appreciate you, as always, for listening to
(46:28):
the Graced to Lead podcast.
Remember, we're on every week.
Episodes launch every Thursday,so you can find us on every
podcast platform of choice ApplePodcasts, you can find us on
Spotify, on Google, wherever youget your podcasts.
And remember, you are indeedgraced to lead Bye-bye.
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