Craigslist Cats & Creativity with Brian R. Williams

In this week's episode, I chat with teacher and illustrator Brian R. Williams. Our conversations goes from speculations of what Henry VIII's Instagram would be like, to the value of a liberal arts degree, the fine line between crippling self-doubt and megalomania, and how manifesting doesn't work without, well, work. We also discuss how rejection never gets easier (and if that's the case, what you can do to lessen the blow).

🎧 Tune in for:

✔️ Craigslist kittens and parking lot meetups

✔️ Society's obsession with clones and toilet teeth

✔️ Digital ecosystems helping artists thrive

✔️ Living in an app-overloaded world

✔️ How contradictions are on-brand

✔️ Performative Engouragement sucks

✔️ Art doesn't always need deep meaning

🔗 Connect with Brian R. Williams:

🔹 ⁠⁠⁠⁠Website

🔹 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Orick & Argyle

🔹 ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram

🔹 ⁠⁠⁠⁠Bluesky

🎧 Connect with GRAFIK CONTENT:

🔸 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔸 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔸 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔸 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Enjoyed the episode?

👍 Like this video & subscribe for more!

💬 Drop a comment below with your thoughts or questions!

🎵 Music:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Nicholas Nothing

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I don't even know. I, I had him for a couple days.
I got him from Craigslist. Some guy was just giving away
kittens and they picked him up and I kind of lived in for a
couple days. And then finally, I just, the
name was like that, that that suits him, you know, So I named
him Jasper. A very different Craigslist
experience. No, I had, I had a friend come

(00:21):
with me because we were meeting in Mansfield, which is like an
hour outside Columbus, and I wasscared to go by myself because
we're meeting in like a parking lot and this guy was just
handing out. Kittens sounds very Craigslist.

(01:00):
Welcome to another episode of Graphic Content, the podcast
where we talk about all things who, why, and what the fuck.
My guest today is an art teacherat the Columbus College of Art
and Design. He is the author and illustrator
of the comic series Orc and Argyle, and he's also been an
illustrator in published works such as Thirteen Ways of Looking
at a Blackbird, Children of Mezzaline, and Ministers of the

(01:23):
Kingdom. Brian R Williams.
Oh my God, it's been a hot minute.
Four years now. Well, we've, you know, we've
messaged back and forth on Instagram over the years since
then, but we've known each otherfor what, going on 10 years now?
Through the Instagram like we've.
Been through Instagram? Through the Instagram back and
forth like I I stumbled upon you.

(01:44):
I don't know how we first, if itwas me or you or what, but
coming across your page to me assomebody who works in my work is
very like bright and colorful tohave such a stark contrast.
Your work. No, but truly where it's it's
mostly tactile, like you're drawing this, it's hand done and
then it's it's all monochromatic.
And so to that stark contrast for me, somebody would look at

(02:06):
my work and say, Oh, you know, you only like bright stuff, but
it was it's so beautiful the work that you do.
So coming across it, I was like,I love this.
It's it's and and the old school.
Yeah, yeah, I do love the tactile quality of drawing.
You know, it's funny. Opposites do attract because I'm
even though I all my work is black and white, my traditional

(02:26):
work is black and white. I love color and I'm attracted
to artists who work in a lot of color.
My favorite color is leopard print.
I love that. So your work, yeah, is very
eye-catching to me because it's so colorful and you have a, you
have a good sense of unconventional colour palettes,

(02:48):
you know, like how to mix colours in a very kind of
eye-catching, unconventional butaesthetic way, which I'm really
attracted to, Yeah. I'll take it.
I just do what I like, but it's like same with you where you're,
I'm just going to go for the things that I generally, I'm not
even thinking about it. I like obviously when it comes
to certain things like branding,whatever you have to, there's

(03:08):
strategy to it, but I just go with that feeling 'cause if I
don't like it, I'm not gonna go for it.
So I appreciate that, but but we're not here to talk about me.
We're getting ready for today, going over some of your work and
just reviewing what I already know, but just refreshing my
memory going over your video content because from when we

(03:28):
first, the last time we talked, I don't know if it was like as
much of a thing that you were posting.
I know a lot of the things you post are static, but you're
doing a lot more like showing the process of you illustrating
the work, like the with the Chrono species that that image,
just the the process of you drawing it out.
Like, I know what that's like assomebody who is an illustrator,

(03:50):
but to see it, it was to come tolife and all the processes and
the stages you do it, it was really, really cool.
Well, you know, part of that wasthe stupid Instagram algorithm,
you know, you know, like a lot of artists on Instagram, I'm
always kind of like thinking about ways to promote my work
and how to get in front of more people.
And all Instagram was like really like showing was that

(04:13):
they were only really promoting video, which is kind of stupid
because you know, as a originally like a photo app, but
so video did not come naturally to me.
But I did a few of those gum reels that, you know, that
Instagram keeps promoting and then it got kind of fun.
You know, it's like, I think a lot of people really are
interested to see process and not just the final product, you

(04:36):
know, or the final artwork. So I did a couple of those, but
you know, even though I, I cavedand I started doing the
Instagram reels because that's what the algorithm was telling
me to do. You know, I don't post three
times a day or whatever. And so, you know, it's still
like, it still shows those reelsto like 110th of my followers on
Instagram. But ultimately, like I decided a

(04:59):
couple years ago, I'm not trace going to chase the algorithm.
I'm just going to post when and what I want on Instagram.
And I actually ended up enjoyingmaking those videos because it
actually got me thinking about my process more, you know, like
what people might be interested in seeing in the process.

(05:21):
Even things like framing something.
I did a couple of framing ones, and those were really popular
because I think it's something that people don't really ever
see is when you are kind of arranging something in a frame
and cutting the mat and all that, all that fun stuff, you
know? And my cat's showing up.
This is Jasper. OK, So what is hilarious about

(05:42):
that is that my sister's cat is also named Jasper.
Oh really? No kidding.
Yes, I think I DM D you this once, but the when you had
posted something about Jasper and I was like I'm like what are
the odds that the cause Jasper'snot a common name period And
then for it the cat to be named Jasper.
I'm keeping this in the episode by the way, this is just for

(06:04):
her. Where did you get that name?
I don't even know. I, I had him for a couple days.
I got him from Craigslist. Some guy was just giving away
kittens and I picked him up and I kind of lived in for a couple
days and then finally I just, the name was like that, that
that suits him, you know, So I named him Jasper.

(06:25):
A very different Craigslist experience.
No, I had, I had a friend come with me because we were meeting
in Mansfield, which is like an hour outside Columbus, and I was
scared to go by myself because we're meeting in like a parking
lot and this guy was just handing out.
Kittens sounds very Craigslist. And he was, you know, old enough

(06:50):
to be given away, but he was still a tiny little thing.
Yeah. And I just remember this guy had
the dirtiest fingernails I'd ever seen on a person ever.
And like, he had, like, a hoarder truck.
Like, his pickup truck was just full.
Like, the doors were bursting with like, just like garbage.
And I don't, I'm, I'm scared to know what kind of place Jasper
was born into Fun. Like, yeah, I, I brought him

(07:14):
home and lived with him for a few days and then, I don't know,
he was running around being likea crazy kitten.
And then I was like, I think Jasper's a good name for this
animal. That's so.
That's so cute. He's very, very cute.
I, I attempted a cat years ago and I couldn't do it because I
found out very quickly that I'm super, super allergic.
And so that was like a done deal.

(07:35):
So luckily my friend came over for dinner that week and was
like, you got a cat? What the fuck?
Like, I didn't even know you wanted one.
And I'm like, I know I can't keep it.
It's like, I literally couldn't breathe.
And then she, it just so happened that she was like, you
know, it's really crazy, 'cause my husband and I, we've been
talking about getting our daughters a cat.
I was like, great. The serendipitous moment.

(07:56):
Like, please home this kitten because I can't keep him.
I'm literally unable. And so now she and now he lives
with them. It's been four years.
I was terribly allergic to cats my whole life and then I don't
know, I got older and then suddenly the allergy went away
and haven't had any trouble since.
And I only learned that I wasn'tallergic because I'd just be
around my friends cats. I would have never gotten a cat

(08:18):
if I had still thought I was allergic.
But I've got 2 cats actually. But Jasper's the one that shows
up on whenever I have like a work meeting.
He's like, what's up? He sees, he sees me talking to
the computer. I think that gets him up here on
the desk to like, you know, invade the space and make sure
people see him. I love that I I wish, I wish

(08:41):
like as much as I I I'm like, I wish I could do it but I can't.
Like I just I'm sorry about my well-being.
If I can't breathe, I'm not doing.
It I'm sorry. I bet people will be like, well,
just take allergy pills. I'm like, I'm not doing that.
Like, sorry, I'm not. Yeah, yeah.
You don't want to be on allergy medication the rest of your

(09:02):
life. No, are you kidding?
It's like all these guys who do the the they go to Turkey and
get the hair plugs, but then youhave to take like meds for the
rest of your life. I'm like, I don't want to do
that. You do?
I didn't know that. Yeah, you have to take like
something so that it sticks, right.
Like, and I was like, I don't, Ithink if I just, if this just
keeps going all the way back, I'm just going to just shave it

(09:22):
off. Yeah, Oh, I, yeah, I got, you
know, Instagram shows you like the weirdest stuff and like the
Discover page, you just look at one thing and then suddenly I
was getting like, inundated withlike, Instagram reels of people
getting veneers. Oh my God.
Like these are, these were not good looking veneers, you know,

(09:44):
like. Like toilet teeth?
Yeah, like, like Chiclets in their front.
Yes. Yeah, I saw a whole bunch of
people like and like these were definitely not like English
language reels of like getting like the veneers and they go
like each one was worse than thelast.
And sometimes, like I, I understand the, the want to go
that route where OK, I want to like judge up and and tweak, but

(10:07):
I, I feel the aftermath, the notknowing what it's going to be.
I just couldn't risk looking like I'm, I'm OK with how I
look. If I was to do that and then
have like Nicki Minaj teeth for the rest of my life, I would be
like really bummed. Yeah, and it's to the point now
where everyone you see on in movies and TV and in social

(10:27):
media, they have the perfect teeth and the perfect nose that
when somebody has a little bit of a like a more distinctive
look, I'm like instantly like drawn to them.
Like, whoa, yeah, I'm watching this show Severance right now.
And. My sister, once again my sister,
she she told me about it. Oh, it's good.
Yeah. I recommend it.
But everybody is so distinct looking, you know, like Adam

(10:50):
Scott and all the other actors. I like that they look like like
average people. They don't look like movie
stars, but their faces are in like John Turturro, like their
faces are as interesting as the rest of the show.
And it's like, I just kind of love the close-ups that they
show these like these, these people's unique faces.
And it's just so it's kind of nice to see that, you know, like
normal looking people, all for one.

(11:11):
Think about historically, if youlook at images of women and men
and people in the past where they have very distinct
features, they're not, you know,right now we're in this era of
like, sameness, which I feel is there's going to be a shift
eventually. I think we're, you know, people
are gonna, we're gonna move awayfrom it.
I already feel that even in justthis conversation, people are

(11:33):
like, OK, I'm kind of done with everybody looking the same.
And if you look at historically,once again, like these, there's
something to it. You know what I mean?
Like in how people were shown, it was just like the uniqueness
of the individual. And so with your work, like a
lot of your influence is history.
And so like, do you find that the figures that you're drawing
and what inspires you to kind ofcreate a piece?

(11:53):
Yeah. You know, I studied art history
in college and so a lot of my work is, is referential to
various periods in art history, you know, and I go through
phases, a few for a few years. All my drawings are inspired by
like tin type photography, you know, 19th century photography.

(12:15):
And then I got into neoclassicism for a spell.
It just like, really like just spending a lot of time, like
just going through and looking at images from neoclassical
artists, you know, English portraiture from Henry the Court
of Henry the Eighth, you know, which, which is, you know, like
going back to what you're talking about, like the way
people look back then, you know,they didn't have cameras.
And so like, when Henry the Eighth was looking for a wife,

(12:37):
they would just send an artist out and paint a picture of her
and then bring the picture back to him.
Be like you, like you know. The modern day equivalent.
It's like oh look at this picture I got.
I took a screenshot from his Instagram.
Yeah, it was just like, hilarious to think like him
sitting waiting for the artist to go to some other country and
paint this portrait and bring itback.
And then like, there's that famous one of Anne of Cleaves

(13:00):
that it was a Hans Holbein the younger.
It painted and he brought it back and he liked the portrait.
He thought she was beautiful. But apparently she didn't look
like the portrait because if shecan marry him.
Yeah. She.
He was like, no, no, no, no, no,no.
And like he was. He was really.
And I think they got divorced pretty fast because he was
disappointed that she didn't look like the portrait that was

(13:20):
painted of her. Yeah.
This is. This is once again feeling very
Craigslist. You don't look like your
picture. So, yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm always
intrigued by the stories behind the, the, the sitters of these

(13:41):
portraits, you know, and the, and the way that their likeness
is passed down to us over hundreds and hundreds of years.
And we might lose the story about the person, but you know,
their image lives on forever in in our collective memory, you
know? Oh yeah, I love how inspired by
the past you are because it still, it feels like I could

(14:04):
have cut this out of a book from300 years ago and plop it down
today and say, yeah, this is a this is from the past.
But I love the way that you merge that old aesthetic, but
then the modern like where you're putting like animal heads
or like different. So like, where did that come
from? Like, like a lot of things, I
think it was just something I was playing around with, you

(14:24):
know, and having fun and just kind of engaging in like my, my
kind of curious side. Like, you know, the things I was
reading about and the various topics I was interested in was
just kind of like showing up in,in funny and unusual ways in my
work. And I, you know, I mean, I
suppose I could ascribe A deepermeaning to it, but it was really

(14:45):
just me kind of having fun visually.
Like by connecting all of these different things in my brain and
pushing them together in a composition and then seeing
like, you know, what comes out at the end of the process.
You know, all art is self-expression.
And I think instead of my work mostly being about how I feel,
it's kind of like what I'm thinking about at a certain time

(15:06):
or what is really kind of what I'm interested in, in terms of
like what I'm reading about or, you know, whatever.
All the different books or topics I'm reading about kind of
get overlapped in my mind and they it comes out in the work.
I am not the type to always needdeep meaning when it when it's
the work is there, if it's if it's how you're feeling in the

(15:28):
moment. This is this is what just came
out of me in this time. I think that there's validity in
that. I don't you know what some
people are like. Oh, the, you know, the deep
meaning. I'm just, I'm not unless it's
something specific for OK. And you know, if I'm working
with a client and they're like, let's I, I need that, you know,
what's the messaging of the brand?
And then you're thinking about what colors represent these

(15:48):
ideas, yadda, yadda. That's, that's its own thing.
But if it's art and and you're just expressing what you want to
express and you're just trying new things, I don't think there
needs to be a deep explanation all the time.
No, I totally agree. I think all of that, all those
like dumb stereotypes about artists, you know, how they're
tortured souls and they find deep meaning.

(16:11):
It's another way of people thinking that art is
inaccessible to them, you know, And I really disagree with that.
I think any everyone is creative.
If you're, if you're a person, if you're human, you have the
capability of being creative, you know, and so much of that,
you know, like I, I so many conversations I have with folks

(16:31):
who are just like, oh, I'm just so not creative where I couldn't
draw or. And I think they convinced
themselves that of that first and then they never even
bothered. And it doesn't even have to be
like artistic creativity. Like there's a. 100% yeah, yeah.
No, no, keep going. It's just just that, just that
like the whole like art has to have some sort of deep profound
meaning is just another way of people convincing themselves

(16:54):
that because they don't see the profound meaning in the work, or
they never thought of it that way, that they themselves could
not do anything creative. To me, even it's like the
premise of this podcast, I, I want it, I want to talk to
creatives. Now, are they all visual
artists? No, like that's to me, that is
not what a creative is. Yes, in my world, that's what a

(17:16):
creative is. But at the end of the day, to
me, it's, if you have any sort of vision that you are putting
the work towards creating something for yourself in a way
that is, that didn't exist before, that is creation.
It's create like that's what that means, right?
If we whittle it down. And so I, those are the people
that I wanna talk to and I, I always get such a, like a boost

(17:38):
of energy talking to the things that make people that galvanized
them in their lives because that's what are we here for?
Like the world is so annoying right now that like, if I can
have these conversations where let's talk about the things that
you like in a way that is not like, you know, I, I don't care
about pop culture. I don't care about all these
like other things for me, because I'm in this path, right?
So for me that I, I like it. So to hear you talk about it,

(17:59):
it's, it's exciting. Yeah, yeah.
And so I had a thought there, and then my cat walked.
Through the frame, he fucked youup.
I lost my train of thought. My, my, my thought went to get
out of the way. Don't worry about it honestly.
And I also think that people getself-conscious because they

(18:22):
think of it as something that they have to show or act or, you
know, perform. You know, I, I love finding
folks on Instagram or other social media apps who are just
like making stuff for the, the pure joy of just doing it
themselves. And they're not looking for

(18:45):
engagement or an audience that they're not like, you know,
creating content or whatever, you know, And I, what I, what I
love about it is I can, I can feel like through the screen,
like how much of this is just anact of compulsion, Like they're
doing it because they, they can't not do it.
You know, they're, they're making something for the sheer
joy of doing it. And that's got that gets lost I

(19:06):
think in a lot, especially nowadays when everything is
being captured by like this, like capitalistic drive for
creation, content and marketing and branding and all the things
that separate the original kind of joy of creativity from the
work, you know, like, and I, I, I think I try, you know, with my

(19:29):
students and like. I was literally gonna go and I
was about to ask you. What?
No. No, no, no, go ahead.
But I was just about to talk about like, 'cause your
students, they're born into the Internet, like they're born into
this new generation of everything online is, you know,
let's, how do we make money? How do we sell ourselves?
So how are how is that? Sorry I totally cut you off, but

(19:49):
I'm just genuinely curious. Well, you know, in a big way, in
a macro sense, I think there's this big fight in academia right
now about, is a liberal arts education valuable in its own
right? Is it worth it just to go to
college and learn something, learn about the world, learn
about yourself, learn how to communicate?

(20:10):
Or is it a jobs program? You know, like, do you go to
college for a job or do you go to a college for.
Yeah, I see it in art schools, you know, like.
When I was in school, I think a lot of schools were still kind
of of like that Bauhaus art school style where you were, you
just went and it was kind of like a well-rounded art
education. Like you took design classes,

(20:31):
but you also took like 3D designand sculpture and painting.
And you know, I was taking computer classes along with my
traditional media classes as just type just so I could have
like a well-rounded education. And now I think my school and a
lot of art schools are trending toward like, get them in,
declare your major as soon as possible and then learn a whole
bunch of skills that makes you somebody that like a animation

(20:54):
studio will want to hire. And then you'll have a job as
soon as possible out of college.And then the college can say,
hey, look, all of our graduates are getting jobs.
So come to our school, you know,100%.
I think kids like, like you said, kids who grow up in that,
who only think of a ways to commodify their talents, start

(21:16):
to get disillusioned even with the like, as young as like, you
know, college kids, you know, and I, I, I, I just, I, I worry
that they're going to lose the joy of creativity and this, this
struggle to find a way to marketit and to sell it and to make
money at doing it, you know? Your students age were a good
chunk older than them. But I think about, even when I

(21:38):
was looking at, you know, post secondary almost 20 years ago,
I'm thinking, what do I want to do?
Like what do I, what are my skills?
You know, what direction do I goin?
And once again, you know, I, I went in a direction where I'm
like, OK, I, I am a, I'm a creative.
I have this, these skills, I canput it towards graphic design.
And then, and that has been something where I have used my
skills to make money and it's created the life that I have.

(22:03):
But at the same time, that younghuman who was a like a, a very
much an artist, that light has dimmed a little bit because
everything I do creatively is with a not everything like this
obviously isn't that. But like visually, like I'm
working as a creative to I'm selling my time and my, my
skills for a dollar and that takes away from my joy when it

(22:27):
comes to creative, like my own creative ventures, right?
That's a risk no matter what youdo when you enter into any kind
of creative industry, you know, whether it's visual arts,
graphic design, music, theatre, you know, there's always this
constant tension between keepingsight of what you love about the
work versus what you can do to just make money to survive, you

(22:51):
know, doing the thing that you like to do.
Yeah. My, my day job is graphic
design. I do freelance graphic design
and I was an illustration major in college and then I just took
a couple of graphic design classes along with my other
classes that I took, art historyand everything else that I
studied in college. And then I just got into an

(23:12):
internship my senior year in college and that kind of like
snowballed. Then that led to a full time job
and then that led to another graphic design job.
And so, yeah, the graphic designgig is what pays my bills.
And yeah, there are days when I really enjoy it and I'm not even
like thinking of it at his work.You know, I'm kind of just
vibing, you know, you get in that like that kind of like flow

(23:34):
where you're just loving what you're doing and time passes and
you have no idea how, you know how long it's been.
Yes. And then, you know, of course,
you know, like then you get likethese days where you hate every
minute of it and you're doing things that you hate, but either
client told you to do it that way.
You're just like, oh, you're like designing with like your
your hands over your eyes. Oh yeah, all the time.

(23:57):
There's that's a constant tension.
And so one thing, you know, likeI, I have the, the, the design
gig that pays the bills and thatactually helps fund the more
creative pursuits that I I like,like my fine artwork in the
gallery exhibitions in the comic, but I couldn't do it
without the design job, that's for sure.
I'm. Not even gonna say that 'cause I

(24:19):
don't want this on record, but it's gonna be like, like
branding in general. I find it's a creative outlet
for me. Everyone is different because
I'm working with, you know, whether it's a team or an
individual on their, their business, their brand.
That part is very fun. But once again, the the OG the
OGGO was an artist, like a draw,like an illustrator, a painter

(24:43):
like that was that that's what Ikind of started on.
And so in this digital era, likewhat I love to just paint all
day and create. Absolutely it would be fun, but
I'd also need to eat and you kind of find that balance.
But I feel like with you and I don't know, like I'm looking at
this from out the outside, right?
I'm looking through your socials.
That's kind of how we interact. It seems like you have a good

(25:07):
balance of you have your design work, but then you're also very
much still in pursuit of the theart.
That's a a conscious effort, youknow, which is something else I
think a lot of people misunderstand about artists.
Is that like the the motivation and Dr. kind of just comes

(25:28):
innately and, you know, you don't have to work at it, but
striking that balance, you know,drawing, even though I love
drawing, of course there are like lots of lights when that's
the last thing I want to do. But I still show up to do it.
You know, I still sit down on mydesk and try to get a little bit
of drawing done. And yeah.
And it's because of that. Like I have to continually

(25:48):
remind myself like what my goalsare and doing the things that I
in the moment I don't like doing.
But I know that they'll, you know, get me one step closer to
my goals, like not going out, which honestly, like, that's not
a big issue for me. I don't like going out anyway.
Maybe that's not a big sacrifice.

(26:08):
But, you know, like, it's staying home and like, sitting
on my desk when I all I want to do is get up and, you know, get
out of my house and, like, go, do you know, anything else but
work? And yeah, and it's work.
It's like, even though it's, youknow, creative work, it's still
work. It's still takes an effort.
That's something just, you know,over the years I've had to learn
how to strike that balance. You know, I told my students

(26:30):
when I graduated college, I was so sick of art.
You know, I actually didn't do anything art wise for like a
year after I graduated. I had the internship, the this
graphic design job, which was atthe Art Museum.
So I was still around art and I still like was talking about it

(26:51):
and it was still fun to be continually like surrounded by
creativity and art, but I just need to take a break.
I was just so I, I thought I wasnot going to be able to do art
ever again when I graduated because I was so worn out.
I was just completely exhausted.College really took it out of
me, you know, creatively. And then I eventually found my

(27:14):
way back. It took it, it took a year or
so, but I started making art again.
And the first time I was doing it and I would realized it
wasn't for like a school projectwas just kind of like, oh, this
is really nice. And I started finding my joy
again and making art. I don't think there's anything
wrong with taking a breather from being immersed in it
because it's like anything right?

(27:35):
You kind of get sick of especially post school, like
school. I listen, I by the end I'm like,
I don't want to think about this.
And then you have to not have to, but you know, the the way
that we're programmed is that you go to school and immediately
go right into a job. There was, I had a maybe six
months, a six month breather in between when I graduated to when

(27:57):
I started working full time agency.
And I was happy to have that pause.
Like I was, I think I was working for the tourism board.
Like I was like on the double Decker tour buses, like doing
that whole thing. And my mom at the time was like,
when are you gonna find a job? Like you're wasting your time.
I'm like, girl, it's been 6 months.
Like that's been like, you know what I mean?

(28:18):
Like who cares in the grand scheme of life?
Like you're wasting your degree.I'm like, I'm not wasting shit.
Like give me a, give me a minute.
Like I don't want to go right into it.
Yeah, Yeah, you do. And then, you know, like, that
is another reason why I feel like people need to think of
college as an educational experience and not a jobs

(28:39):
program. Because then, yeah, you get into
those thought processes where like, if you don't get into the
field you studied, your degree is a waste of time, you know?
And I, yeah, I think, I think, and especially nowadays,
considering how expensive college is, there's even more
pressure now to think of it as like, you have to spend, you
know, $100,000 so that you can go get a good job.

(29:02):
And if you don't get a good job,it's a waste of time.
So I, I really understand that why people think that.
I, I, I wish that more people thought of college is just just
another phase of kind of like education and self discovery,
being a lifelong learner, like all the things that you can't
really commodify or put a dollaramount to, you know?

(29:22):
We don't live in that world likethe world that we live in.
Yeah, it's true. We we live in this world where
everything is. How can we capitalize on
everything? There's gonna be a turn around.
I I I just feel it like people are getting sick of the way
we're obviously look at fucking world we're in with your
students. Like not to just focus on your
teaching, but I, I'm genuinely curious.

(29:43):
You have this young, I assume most of them are younger because
them having grown up in, you know, the tech era and you being
not of that generation 100% likehow do you help them reconcile
with the world that they live inas creatives?
I'm lucky in my class because I teach figure drawing and even
though technology has changed a lot, that the basic tenets of

(30:07):
the practice are the same. You know, what I teach is the
way that I was taught and then that was the way that my
teachers were taught. You know, so I, I'm fortunate
that like we already, my students and I have this common
ground, you know, we, we can talk about that And that's, you
know, that's, that spans generations.

(30:29):
You know, of course, then it's kind of like the, the, the, the
areas where I've had to catch upis like digital art.
And in my Figure 9 class, I allow my students to draw
digitally. It's another skill and it's a
skill building exercise. And if they're going to be
drawing digitally after they graduate, they might as well
learn how to draw in my class. But because of that, I've had to

(30:53):
like make sure like I got my iPad and I taught myself
Procreate so that I could like talk to them about, you know,
different digital drawing techniques in class.
And of course, you know, there'salways new digital drawing
programs that I know nothing about.
I feel like I'm at a disadvantage because of that.
And I need to like be learning what's Clip Studio Paint is the

(31:14):
one that a lot of my students use.
And I don't know anything about Clip Studio Paint.
It's the. First time I've heard of it, so
that tells you something. And like, there's like Japanese
programs and then there's, you know, obviously Photoshop, a lot
of students still use that. But the more these different
drawing programs come on to the market, the more I feel like I

(31:36):
don't know anything about my own, my own practice anymore.
You know, I just, I just use a pencil, you know, but to it.
Stick to that. To me, I with technology evolves
so incredibly fast that things that we're learning is are going
to be obsolete so soon. And so that's why I'm not trying

(31:58):
to I don't, I don't follow the like you have to learn this and
these. There's too much information.
I'm like, I'm just going to keepdoing what I'm doing seems to be
working and I'm going to keep itkeep that train going because
otherwise I don't, I'm going to get so lost in the sauce of I
have to learn all these new skills, all this, this new app,
like when the Kara app or Kara, how do you however, you say,

(32:21):
yeah. And everyone's like, oh, all of
the artists are moving over and then blue sky and everyone's
like going to blue sky. And I'm like, and then I, I, you
know, you, you do it. And then you're like, there's
this, it's too. I don't need this many apps.
I don't need this many these many programs to be using.
Let me just like streamline my life.
It's getting ridiculous, Yeah, and I understand.

(32:42):
I understand. Like, yeah, Twitter or X is now
garbage. You know, I kept my account.
I didn't delete it because I didn't want someone to take my
handle or can. You deactivate it.
So I, I just, I locked it down and I deleted all of my tweets
and all my artwork from it. So it's just an empty account

(33:02):
that's locked down. You can't, even if you're not a
follower, you can't even get to it.
I moved to what? Yeah, Cara and Pixelfed and Blue
Sky and whichever next ones. And I kind of like I I set up
accounts there just in case I have accounts at all of them.
I don't. So you have the name.
It's just it's, it's ridiculous.And then in the next year
there'll be another one. Blue Sky is, is, I think,

(33:24):
testing an Instagram alt, you know, like it's the it's like a
photo sharing app that is run onthe blue sky platform, which
would be nice, you know, but Thething is like, like with Kara,
if it's just artists on the app.Exactly it.
Like you need, you need like artenthusiasts, you need buyers,

(33:45):
you need clients, you need people who are going to buy your
work. Otherwise, you know, I'll regret
saying this, but when like I have like a gallery show and all
my artist friends come to the show, it's great to show that
support, you know, like you needyour community support, but I
need people on there to buy my work.
Yes, you know, and it's the samewith the apps, you know, like

(34:05):
if, if buyers aren't on the apps, what's the point?
It's the equivalent of going to a Market Square, like an actual
physical market and then but there's no one, it's just all
the vendors. There's no, there's no one there
actually buying any fruit or vegetables or whatever.
And everyone's just like, well, shit, we're just sitting here,
our product is not moving, you know, And that's how, that's how
I felt. And I was like, I don't, I don't

(34:25):
know, like I need, I need other people to see my shit.
So that's why, that's honestly one of the reasons why I went
about this was because I'm like,I love this format.
I really enjoy talking to people.
And so for me, it's a way to addan extra branch of the
geographic brand out into the world for people who are not
looking at my Instagram and my design work online.

(34:46):
Like it's like anybody could seethis because it's going to go
beyond just Instagram, right? I can market myself in a way
where it's like, oh, there is a,a human being behind all the
work, 'cause like all I do is post portfolio and I'm like,
yeah, I gotta stop that because that is not doing enough for me.
Like you said at the beginning where, you know, the algorithm
made me start recording video and I'm like, I'm, I'm gonna

(35:08):
play the game and see where it takes me.
I'm just not gonna be afraid about it.
Make something that you've nevermade before and just throw it
out there and see what kind of response you get in return and
see what people think, you know,like that that's that's valid,
You know, as someone who makes stuff and puts it out there and
then somebody buys it or even just like leaves like a really
kind of comment on a post. It's so validating, you know,

(35:31):
and it's, you know, ultimately it's not why I, I do it or why I
should do it, but it keeps me going, you know, in the middle
of the night when I, all I want to do is go to bed, you know,
like, just like knowing that, like I have that support out
there is, is really, really helpful in like kind of keeping
it going through like the, you know, days of self doubt and

(35:53):
exhaustion. And I think about all of all of
the amazing creative people who had to quit their art making and
go get like a nine to five just to survive, you know, 'cause
they couldn't, you know, they couldn't support themselves on
their art making. Just think how much is lost in
the society like that, you know,where people they have to make

(36:16):
the tough choice of like going to getting the job that pays the
bills or going to, you know, youknow, it's some kind of going
into some kind of creative fieldthat they love but doesn't make
them a lot of enough money to survive.
A friend of mine, I interviewed her on an earlier episode.
She owns a a fitness boutique here in Windsor, ON and she was

(36:37):
saying like on her when she was doing her first business plan
that there's like a contingency section where it's like, OK,
what are you going to do if you fail?
Like if it doesn't work out? She was like, I don't that's not
an option for me. Like, you know, there's the
people that were like, OK, I don't want to put that.
And it's everyone has their own path.
Like I'm not shitting on anyone's decisions on how they
want to live their life. But her approach was like, there

(36:58):
is no fail safe. Like I'm doing this.
Like I I'll just work harder. I'll try to make it happen.
And for those people who they want to push themselves to
really like, they're like, that's the vision.
That's how I felt. I'm like, I don't have the idea.
Like I've, I've considered goingback to work full time for an
agency or whatever. And even like about within the
last six months because you know, it's the economy's not

(37:20):
what it was. I'm, I wasn't making the money
that I normally do. I was starting to look for other
jobs and I realized like I applied to so many places and I
never got a single call, like not one.
And I applied to like almost 30 jobs and I was like, this is
bleak. If I'm applying, I'm like, am I
overqualified? Like, so I was like, you know
what? This is my sign that that path

(37:41):
is not for me. I need to keep pushing and keep
doing geographic and working formyself because that I, it's,
it's just showing that for me, you know, and that's not for
everybody, but I, that's how I feel.
I'm like I, I'm not going to letthis thing fail.
Yeah, sometimes persevering against all odds is what gets
you there. You know, the people who are

(38:03):
successful are the ones who justsimply just never give up, you
know? And that's it's that's hard to
do. Like when everything is telling
you to quit externally and internally and you choose not to
quit, that takes a lot of courage.
Yeah. And that's respectable.
I have a friend of mine from college who applied at to Pixar

(38:26):
for I think every year for like a decade and every year he was
rejected until the one year he applied and he was accepted.
He just simply did not give up, and now he works at Pixar.
He visualized it, he saw it for himself and he's now he's doing
it and that's amazing. Yeah, the like visualizing it or
manifesting it, that's Step 1. You know you have to have a
vision of your goal, but then but Step 2 is figuring out how

(38:49):
you get there. And keep it.
Yeah, in, in spite of all opposition.
Yeah. Like even when you feel like
there's no hope, just keep. Keep if.
If that's what you want to do, then keep working toward it.
So on the topic of manifesting, because you talked about, you
know, doing solo shows and having people buy your art, do
you have any upcoming shows thatyou're working on right now?

(39:12):
Yeah, I have one coming up in September at a gallery in LA,
Lalu's De Jesus. I I've worked with them multiple
times over the years and they'rejust a really great gallery to,
to work for. I, I, I really enjoy them.
And that's another example like they they accept outside artists

(39:35):
submitting work to a group show only once a year.
And I try to get work in a couple times.
And I was always getting rejected until one year I
submitted work. And, you know, like you're like,
yeah, I'm not going to get in. And that's the year that, you
know, your stuff was accepted. And then I got that foot in the
door and then they invited me back for a group show.
And now I'm coming back again inSeptember.

(39:57):
So yeah, it just that for me, like, you know, I talked a good
game about not giving up. But for me, I have, I have felt
in the face of failure of just, you know.
Of quitting because it hurts when you're rejected a lot, you
know, like it's really hard to recover you know over the years
that's one thing I've never actually gotten better at is

(40:19):
accepting rejection like it still stings you know and I've
I've I've submitted work probably like hundreds of shows
and I've been rejected from mostof them and that never gets any
easier but for whatever reason Ikeep trying it but.
You never want to stop. I think once you give up, you've
kind of you're like rolling overa little bit and I, I respect

(40:41):
the fact that you're still goingat it.
One thing that has helped me, and I'm in no way trying to say
this, like, let me give you advice like that's not how I
mean this, but I for me, what works when it comes to that is
anytime like when I was younger,obviously, like I, the rejection
piece was very real to me. I'm like, Oh my God, like now I
look at it where if I put my my hat in the ring or I apply for

(41:05):
something or whatever, I look atit as like, it's not meant for
me. It wasn't meant for me.
Because it's actually going to create more space for what is
supposed to come into my life. And that is a way for me to look
at it in a way that doesn't allow me to attach too much to
it. You know what I mean?
Because otherwise there's so many people out there trying to.

(41:25):
Yeah. Applying for these roles or
getting these solo shows or whatever.
And so the ones that you are currently working on, those are
the ones that were meant in my mind are meant to for you to be
part of. I try to tell that to my
students, even though I have to convince myself sometimes it's
not personal when you're rejected.

(41:45):
A lot of these places are getting hundreds and hundreds of
applicants, and a lot of them, you know, it's just it's not
meant for you at that time. Try again next year.
You know, that might that might be your time next year.
Just because you're rejected from a gallery or a job or
whatever one year doesn't mean that you shouldn't try again

(42:08):
sometime in the future if there's another opportunity.
It's hard not Yeah, I get it. Like, I take it personally too.
And I have to tell myself it's not it's not personal.
It's never it's never personal. Yeah.
There, even with the people likethe jurors for shows and every
and like people who are accepting job applications,
they've been rejected too. They know how much it hurts.

(42:30):
But they don't know you. It's like they don't know you
enough to be like, I hate that girl.
Like you know what I mean? Like that's not what they're
doing. It still stings though.
Yeah, it never really gets easier.
No, it doesn't get easier, but Ithink, you know, this is when
this is moments where we have totell ourselves like, like, you
know, and I'm act, I'm saying this as you, you're like, I'm

(42:50):
very talented. I have a lot of skill.
I have so much to offer and whatI do.
If they can't see that, then that's not that's on them.
You know what I mean? Like you, we still as creatives,
as artists have to be strong in ourselves to say I'm and it's
not ego. You're like, I, I know what I'm
doing. I'm I can offer so much of the

(43:11):
world. If they can't see it then it
what I have to offer is not meant for them.
It's a fine line between crippling self doubt and being a
megalomaniac. A. 100%.
You know, I don't know what thatis that there, that weird space
in between, like those two extremes.
You know, like I think artists, rightfully so sometimes be are

(43:34):
accused of being a little bit self absorbed and and not and
like that's not always it like anegative.
I think because artists are introspective and they spend a
lot of time thinking about what they do and why they do it.
Of course, when you kind of remullient over your own
thoughts that much that comes across maybe to others as being
self absorbed. You know, one of my art teachers

(43:54):
in college told me something that stayed with me all all
these years. She talked about how artists,
because they do that, they go through this continuous process
of kind of self exploration and self reflection and discovery.
They know themselves better thanother folks who don't ever like
engage in that process with themselves 100%.
You talk to it like a 60 or 7 year old artist or filmmaker or

(44:19):
fashion designer and you hear them and they talk like they
have the wisdom of the ages. But I think it's because they
spent their whole life really like getting deep in their own
psyches and trying to understandthemselves.
And you know, you never get there, but you spend your whole
lifetime trying, you know. And I think that really kind of
shows through the later years. And like with when you listen to
these older artists talk and thewisdom that they're able to kind

(44:41):
of convey to folks. And it's something that like
folks who don't do that I think are really missing out.
And if that's I, I think, I think that's maybe why people
think artists are a bit self absorbed.
The masses are always going to look at those who let's say
like, and I don't mean this to sound any type of way, but who
likes sparkle a little brighter as like, oh, like look at you.

(45:04):
And it's like, well, you have all the tools to go down that
route or take that path. You know, if all each one of us
has that in us to explore ourselves, but a a lot of people
are afraid to do it. They don't wanna do it.
They don't. And you know, it's not about
having the means. Like to be an A creative, you
don't have to have any means. You can literally do it out of

(45:26):
nothing. It just is that do I want to
question who I am and what I am to dive a little deeper, and
what does that look like to an individual?
Right. And not everybody has that.
So to me, I'm you always can, you can always tell people who
have like lived or really like been in within themselves
because you're like, Oh, you canactually articulate a little bit

(45:49):
differently than you know, the someone who's like status quo.
Because there's there's. So everything in the outside
world is pressuring you to pick the major that will get you the
money. And don't act or do or say or
behave in a way that causes people to look at you funny, you
know? And I think a lot of people,

(46:13):
when they're younger, their creative urges are actively
suppressed, you know, by their parents or their teachers or the
people around them, you know, And the people are raised in
that kind of culture where, you know, anything that is quirky
that would make them shine brighter is kind of met with
negative reinforcement all the way through their life.

(46:35):
And then they forget how to access that part of themselves
after a while. So how do you keep that going in
yourself? I I was, you know, the awkward
kid in school. I was a big nerd, you know, I
was made fun of. That bothered me a lot, you
know, being bullied like that inschool.
But for whatever reason, I stilldid the things that I wanted to

(46:56):
do. You know, I guess I just simply,
I just never, I never quit. I think a big, a big help were
my parents. You know, they encouraged me to
draw and they encouraged me to be creative and they didn't
object when I decided to go to art school, You know, when I
know that many people's parents would have chosen a different

(47:17):
route, you know, and, and I'm, I'm grateful for them that they,
that they allowed me the space to do that.
You know, even like, as long as I can remember, they, they never
discouraged me from being creative.
And I remember, like my mom toldme the story.
My dad would never tell me the story, but my mom told me after
I had graduated college, this was a while after I graduated

(47:38):
college, My mom told me that they were at the dining room
table one night, you know, like doing the bills and crunching
the numbers. It was hard to come up with the
money to pay for my tuition. And my mom was even, she even
like said out loud, something tothe effect of like, well, like
maybe maybe we can't do this forhim or maybe he's got to take
some time off or find, you know,another way to pay for it.

(48:00):
And my dad was just like, no, hewas adamant.
He's like, no, we're, we're doing this.
We're like paying for his tuition.
We are not giving up no matter what.
I'm lucky. You know, I don't think many
people have that kind of support.
And they have to find their own way.
In spite of all of the external pressures telling them to not be
creative or like be themselves or find the thing that makes

(48:21):
them unique and encourage that in themselves, they they still
find a way. We are nearing the end and this
is this can go either personal, professional, any way, any
direction you want to go in. But if you were to look back at
your life and think about what was the most on brand thing

(48:42):
you've ever done, what would it be?
Most on brand. Well, while I'm thinking about
it, I'm going to turn the question around back to you.
What's what's what? How would you answer that
question? I think just how I go about my
whole like existence, not going doing the like regular 9 to 5

(49:07):
path that to me, I could I just it made me so unhappy.
So I was like, I can't do this, like I need to do my own thing.
And I've always marched to the meat of my own drum.
When I fall into the I'm doing what I think I'm supposed to do,
That's when I'm the most unhappy.
When you see me in a good place and I'm like doing it.
I think that's that's the most on brand thing for me is just
following what's in here, as cheesy as that sounds.

(49:31):
No, that's good. Yeah.
You know, I think the most on brand thing that I've done when
the economic crisis happened in 2008 and everyone was getting
laid off and I got laid off and it was like it was, it was just
a graphic design job. But it was like the third time I

(49:52):
was laid off before I turned 30,you know, and it was just
getting to me. It was really demoralizing.
You know, I decided to enroll ina graduate program to study art
crime and it just like, let's dothis, you know, let's I'm not
thinking ahead, like is this going to lead to a job?
I don't care. I like the subject.

(50:15):
I miss being in school even though earlier I just said like
how exhausted I was like after Igraduated from art school but.
You're about to be exhausted by.Things that you like.
It's that's OK. I guess that's another on brand
thing like me always contradicting myself, you know,
And so like I did it like I enrolled.
It was like this independent master's program where you had

(50:36):
to go out and find your own instructors.
And so I was like, just like reaching out to like the authors
of like art crime books and papers and research materials
who, you know, And I was like, Hey, would you want to like sign
up, you know, be in my instructor for this class for
grad school, I got to go to Italy and studied with the
founder of the FB is art crime squad.

(50:58):
And it was just like a complete waste of money.
Like there's no, there's no financial benefit to like study.
But I just, you know, after liketrying to adulthood for a while
and just like the continually getting laid off.
And I was like, you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm tired of being
adult. I'm going to go to do what I
want to do. And that's what I did.

(51:19):
There's nothing wrong with that.It's your life.
Like I will champion anyone who just says, you know what, fuck
it, I'm going to like run away for a little bit and do my own
thing. And I wish that there were there
was more financial support for people who wanted to just run
away and do their own thing. I know, I know.
But a federal agency where all you do is you apply.

(51:41):
You're like, I want to go do thedumbest thing that I can think
of. And I want you to like just
finance my cost of living for two years.
And I want the agent at this federal agencies like rubber
standard, like here you go, you know, go do what you want to do,
you know, let your free flag fly.
You know, I mean, like Elon Muskgets to do it.
You know, he gets billions of dollars from the government to

(52:03):
go like, you know, make rockets that blow up, which I got to say
he is a continual and perpetual failure.
But I saw the video of his latest rocket that exploded over
the Gulf of Mexico, and I got tosay it was pretty.
He can make rockets explode in areally pretty way.

(52:25):
That's one thing going for him. I like the videos.
They were. They were cool to watch.
You know the Silver Linings. I know honestly, like I don't, I
don't know where we're headed. It's I'm very like just head

(52:45):
down. Let me focus on the things that
I can control because at that point, that's this.
That's what keeps me feeling like I have some control over
what my life is right now. It's very disorienting and it's
scary, like in a way that I've never experienced in my adult
life, watching all of this happen and having no control and
not knowing what's what. It's what things are going to

(53:08):
look like on the other side. You know, I think about my
students, you know, like, like in being in college at at a time
like this and not knowing what, what the country is going to
look like when they are graduating and they're going out
there. You know, that's got to be
really frightening too, because even the grown-ups don't know

(53:29):
you know, what's going on. It's scary for everybody right
now. I think about my cousins,
they're even younger. They're like high school.
How does that generation have hope for any type of a future?
I think having people like you, you can give them hope and and
show that there is a future in the in creative industry that
already is something that is helping some people in the next

(53:50):
generation. On some level, you have to say
that that's the truth. Yeah.
And in in a way, for so many people, for so many marginal
allies people, that's the way life has always been.
You can't rely on society at large to be looking out for you.
You got to find your own way andyou make your own community and
support each other. I just think it's a lesson that

(54:11):
everybody is learning right now,you know?
Yes, we all have to work together to move forward.
It doesn't matter what your background is, who you are,
where you come from. This is a bit kind of a theme of
a lot of the episodes I've been doing this where people were
like, yes, we need each other. We are, regardless of who you
are. The way that so much of our
socializing has been like uploaded to social media, I

(54:32):
think has been a problem. And especially in times like
this, I understand that when a lot of people talk about how
like social media is, is their community, like that's where
they found their tribe, you know, on social media.
I, I get that, you know, but then when, when things go bad in
the world, I, I also experiencedhow lonely that can feel.
Like when I put my phone down and I close my laptop and I'm

(54:57):
just sitting by myself in my house.
I just realized like I had relied on social media to stay
connected to people in a way that I didn't realize had kind
of taken over. And it, when I'm not in it, I,
I, I, I feel more alone than ever, you know, and it's going
to be important for me and for, for everybody to kind of

(55:19):
reconnect in the real world, youknow, and, and make sure that
your in person relationships areas strong as ever.
I'm kind of like the opposite where when I'm not online I feel
more grounded in myself. I think about if I shut off the
computer and I'm less online, I feel like more like, OK, I don't

(55:40):
need the external voices to tellme that I'm good or that I'm
doing good. Because at the end of the day,
like especially on social media,like everyone can say like, woo
Hoo, yeah, you like go you. But then everyone's very self
interested, right? Like it's on some level not
everybody, but it it exists in the social world online.
When I can step away from it, I feel more like, Oh yeah, like

(56:02):
I'm good. Like I'm I got to stop worrying
about everything. Like even last night I was I
started overthinking. So they go podcasting came up
and then I started like spiraling.
I'm like, did I make a mistake? Like, am I, should I not go down
this path? Like, why am I doing a podcast?
People are gonna see me online. Like I'm exposing myself to I I

(56:23):
started spiraling. It was like, Oh my God, what am
I doing? And I'm like, like, you know,
you know. What I mean?
Like I'm, I'm like stop it like this is so dumb.
How could you be so headstrong in something and then a minute
later, or like, you know, one thing comes up and then suddenly
the carpet is pulled out from under view and then you're like
doubting everything you've been doing.

(56:45):
You know what I mean? It's it's, it's so that's why
the social world, I'm like, fuck.
Yeah, I do that too. That's very on brand for me too.
I sometimes I feel like I'm so sure about my choices and then
immediately and like, what did I?
What did I get myself into? If that's everybody, it's

(57:07):
annoying. It's like, why can't we just
100% feel like headstrong in ourselves?
Why does? And I think honestly it's, it's,
it's the online world that's like to me anyway, that is what
is what does it? Yeah, yeah, because when you're
online, you feel constantly perceived and yeah, you're and
you're really, it's really easy for you to be like doling out

(57:30):
judgment to everybody you see online, you know, and just, you
know, it kind of brings up the worst in you.
On Blue Sky, people are talking about, what is it, Gen.
Alpha, Gen. Z, the the 20 year olds.
Now I forget what their label is, but how they don't go out
drinking. Yeah.
Like, like older generations used to.

(57:50):
And like, people were speculating that it's probably
because everybody has a phone. And if there's nowhere you can
go out and just like, be goofy because someone might get it on
video. And then you're on TikTok, you
know, the next day, you know, just like that surveillance
state, like we created a surveillance state
inadvertently. And everybody feels like they
have to be on their best behavior and that they can't.

(58:12):
And then it even like the positive interactions feel very
performative. Like I remember when I used what
it used to be on Facebook, I would post my artwork or post a,
a stupid Facebook post or whatever they were, whatever
they're called on Facebook. And I just like 1 friend who
would always like make a commentjust like it was like, that's
beautiful, that's great, that's so funny.

(58:34):
But with every comment, everything I said, they would
respond that way. And it got like really fast.
It's just like, Oh yeah, this isjust like she's performing like,
this is, you know, it felt very shallow.
And I started dreading like, andshe was always the first one to
comment, you know, and I, I was sort of dreading like to see her

(58:55):
like, you know, the little notification like things so and
so because I'm like, Oh, yeah. She's just like performing
encouragement. Yeah.
It was really, it's just like social media gets people, myself
included, to behave in very, very strange ways.
When I was on Twitter, I all I was doing was scrolling, looking
for fights. I don't know why.

(59:15):
I just like, like, I loved finding Twitter fights and just
like going through all the comments.
I would, I would like, waste literally hours of my day just
like reading fights between people.
I don't even know. But you.
Were in it. You were just like, oh, OK.
I was like, that seems very. That's off brand for you.
No, I can't see you fighting. Online, no, I never did it, but

(59:39):
for whatever reason, I just lovebeing a spectator.
Yeah, it's just. Like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I put my phone down.
I would just look around. I was like, I don't know, six
hours had gone by and I that's all I did all day.
Like, it's like, yeah. And it's gross.
We all do it like one of my, like, I wouldn't say guilty
pleasure because it's not a pleasure.

(59:59):
It's like just something that I'm fascinated with is I can
find myself and I don't do it asmuch because it started to like,
give me brain rot. But because as a kid growing up,
I loved like, National Geographic, Animal Planet, like
I was obsessed with animals. Like I got the, you know, the
wildlife fact files. Did you ever get that as a kid?
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
So like that I like I had the bind.

(01:00:19):
And every I had the subscription, like my mom would
get it for me. And so all the animal like I
loved reading about animals. I'd read like I read books about
like where the main the protagonist in the series was an
animal. Like I just love that.
So as an adult, I'm realizing I'm like kind of going like that
part of me is still there, but videos online where I will watch
videos of like nature's metal where it's like predators

(01:00:42):
attacking. And I don't like gore and like
horror movies, but for some reason I'm fascinated by like,
nature, like in nature, these visuals.
And I'm like, I just spent, there'd been moments where I'm
like, I just spent an hour scrolling videos of like
cheetahs ripping antelopes apart, Like, you know what I
mean? Like, what the fuck am I doing?

(01:01:02):
Like, this is crazy. And and then I'm like, OK, I got
to get off because I'm like, I can.
I can only see so many exposed organs on the ground.
But that's the it's like social media is like that.
Like you express interest in onething and then it's like here
is. Everything.
Yeah, like here are 700 years worth of videos of cheetahs

(01:01:25):
ripping up other Have at it. You can spend the rest of your
life watching them now. It's so crazy.
And I'm like, OK, I actually have to turn this off because
I'm like, or, or stop interacting with these posts so
that I stopped getting them so much in the algorithm because
then all I'm seeing are like, you know, murdered gazelles
like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I, I used to love. So this is, this is going to

(01:01:48):
sound so corny, but I, I have toavoid nature documentaries
because they always make me cry.And what like the I knew I had a
problem because like there was that that dinosaur one a few
years ago on Apple TV, like walking with dinosaurs.
I think I saw that one, yeah. I so I saw like a clip of like a
a baby triceratops that lost gotlost from it like his herd and

(01:02:12):
I'm like, Nope, Nope, I can't watch that.
I can't. I can't watch the CGI.
The fake triceratops baby get lost because he'll cry.
Oh, you're just a softy that's. Cute.
No, I can. Yeah, I cannot.
I cannot abide those nature because they make me cry every
time. Yeah, but we I was a kid.
When I was a kid, I loved them. I was like, yeah, I was.
I was really into nature. And I like all the dinosaur

(01:02:34):
documentaries and all that stuff, yeah.
Well it shows in your work right?
Like you can see the the parallels.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Like that does definitely show
up in my work. Like, I'll, I'll follow down
Wikipedia rabbit holes, just like reading, reading about like
various species of whales all day, you know, and just looking
at the pictures. I'll go to Wikipedia, just look

(01:02:55):
at the pictures and see. Hey, that's what it's there.
For yeah. There's nothing wrong with that.
To me, that's just. But that also tells me that you
still have that like child curiosity that's still very
present in you. Yeah, I think that's a common
thread of all kinds of creative pursuits.
Just that curiosity and wonder, you know, like keeping keeping

(01:03:17):
that in yourself and not losing it after growing up and like
getting beaten down by the, you know, the the system every.
Yeah, the system is like living every day in this in this
society that tells you that the the last thing that you have
time for is to be curious or to express wonder.
This has been lovely. I'm so thankful that you said

(01:03:41):
yes and that you took time out of your life to do this.
I know I'm like a new venture. I'm not like this big show.
So anyone who's saying giving, giving me their time for this,
like I'm beyond appreciative, like I can't tell you.
Oh, sure, this was fun. I, I, I'm really glad that you
reached out. I'm glad that you thought of me
because I had a really fun time doing this.

(01:04:02):
So if anybody is looking to connect with you to check out
where your dates are for your solo show, etcetera, where can
people reach out to you? You can find me on Instagram,
grey, GREY, under score, graphite.
I also have accounts on all of the other ones, Grey graphite,
blue sky, Cara pixel, all the apps.
Just you won't find me on Twitter anymore.

(01:04:24):
Instagram is the one that I I post most frequently to.
And if anybody is looking to connect with me, you could find
the podcast on Spotify, Apple podcast on YouTube as well.
Leave a comment, subscribe, share with your friends.
I'm new. That would be appreciated.
And if you're looking to connectwith me over branding or design,
you could reach out to methroughgeographic.com and we

(01:04:46):
can chat there. All right, thank you.
Bye. Bye.