The Cost of Conforming with Irena Kramer

This week on GRAFIK CONTENT, I chat with Irena Kramer, co-founder of Pulse Law Firm, as we dive into the dynamic world of law. She shares her journey from launching Pulse to its rapid growth, emphasizing the importance of making law accessible while changing the face of traditional firms.  We explore her personal experiences, from being an argumentative kid to dealing with ADHD, aligning your career with your core values, the importance of having female mentors, and what she really thinks of people using Chat GPT to write contracts.

🎧 Tune in for: 

✔️ Not having to choose between LEGO and makeup

✔️ Allowing your excitement to overpower your fear

✔️ Giving up the things that don't matter for things that do

✔️ Dedicating time to maintain your vision as you grow

✔️ Finding ways to cope while you evolve in life

✔️ Why not being the cheapest solution is the best solution

✔️ Getting excited about bringing your brand to life

✔️ Neurodivergence in adulthood and how to manage

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🔹 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pulse Law

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🎵 Music:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Nicholas Nothing

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Yeah, if I wouldn't yell at my mentee about it, I can't yell at
myself about it. That that actually.
So I tend to use that as my thing is like if I wouldn't if I
wouldn't be mean to a friend about it, like I can't be mean
to myself about it. What?
What's the? What are?
We doing. Yeah.
Yeah, I feel you on that. There's so many times where I
think about the amount of, you know, oh, like Gio, you're so

(00:21):
like, you're like my therapist like you, you're so kind and you
have such good views on, you know, how to separate work and
life in this end. But then the feedback I get,
especially from my boyfriend whowe live together, he's like,
you're not good to yourself. You treat yourself like like I
know. Welcome to another episode of

(01:02):
Graphic Content, the podcast where we talk all things who,
why, and what the fuck moments along the way.
Now today's guest is a very special guest.
She is a Co founder of Paul's Law firm, a corporate lawyer and
COO who thrives on building community and supporting
projects with meaningful impact,which is not solving problems.

(01:23):
At work you'll find her exploring new places,
experimenting in the kitchen, collecting gadgets or hanging
out with her pups. Who I I you said maybe that they
walk by, but if they do I would love to meet them on screen.
Absolutely. They they're bound to make an
appearance. Proudly embracing her inner
nerd, she loves everything from Marvel movies to fantasy heist

(01:44):
books, always seeking out the next adventure and the next big
problem to solve. Welcome to Graphic Content Irena
Kramer. Thank you, Gio.
Really excited to be here. Like I was saying before we
jumped into the recording, I always feel like when I go to
ask people that I, I'm admire their work.
I look at them and I think like they're doing such amazing
things. They have a story to tell.

(02:05):
I would love to reach out to them.
I sometimes get a little, I don't want to say gun shy
because it's like not the right place to say, but like I just
feel nervous asking people because I always think like
they're going to look at me and be like no bitch but.
Look, the worst people can say is no, and it's not really that
bad. So, but no, no, I'm really glad

(02:27):
to be here and I'm really excited.
I think you're the first person who's ever asked me to be on a
podcast. I have been on podcasts only as
a result of something like someone else sort of dragging me
into them before, but that's about it.
So. So wait, explain that.
So what do you mean you got dragged into it?
Well, it's like someone's like, oh, we need another person to

(02:49):
speak on this thing. Can you show up to that, You
know, like professionally or that sort of thing?
It's it's never been a personal invitation.
Well, I'm glad I could be the first.
I love it. So how have things been?
I know that you recently launched the law firm and what
has it been like over the last few months?
So it's been pretty wild. The original business plan that

(03:12):
we sort of proposed. So I launched with a with a
partner and the original business plan we proposed was
kind of six people, 2 senior lawyers, 2 junior lawyers and
two staff. And that was kind of what we
envisioned. So we had an office space in
Kitchen Waterloo that was up to 12 desks and instead we have our

(03:36):
15th and 16th person starting onMonday.
So it has been less than six months in.
So it has been out of control iswhat I would say.
We have a small office now in Toronto for three of our people
and then and then everybody elseis here.
We're going to be moving to a bigger space because we are
running out of space. So it's been great.

(03:57):
It's been really busy, it's beenamazing.
It's been really fun. It's really fun to feel like
you're in control of things and really exciting to feel like you
are. You can sort of decide how you
want to do things and you don't have to placate anybody and you
don't have to sort of argue about things or or deal with
stuff that you feel like doesn'tmatter.

(04:19):
I'm really lucky that my business partner is the best and
we get along really, really well.
So we're just really mind and yeah, it's just crazy.
It's non-stop, It's exhausting. It it, it's like it's probably
more work than I can sustainablydo for a really long time.
But that's why we're hiring morepeople and and it's and it's

(04:43):
been and I can't complain, right?
Like it's a good problem to havewhen you have too much work.
It just feels like the communityand our clients and our friends
have just been so supportive. I'm so grateful.
I feel you on that. I feel like when you know, if
things are not, are not busy, you always get that feeling like
what, like what am I doing? What are we, what are we here

(05:04):
for? And then when that you kind of
put it out there and obviously you do good work, you're being
referred to and etcetera. But then when you have all the
work, it's like, oh shit, this thing that I've wanted, this
thing that I've been building and that I've put out there is
I've manifested it. I'm I'm working hard, I'm
bringing it to me. But then it's that wait, how do

(05:24):
I manage this? And, and you never know, like I,
I had a very different professional experience than my
partner who came up in very big law firms.
And so for him, this is the first time he's ever been at a
smaller shop, whereas I have been at smaller shops, kind of
medium sized shops, big shops. And, and so for me, some of it's

(05:46):
like, Oh yeah, this feels like it used to, but, but for him,
it's all new. But you never really know how
people are going to respond. And you don't really know.
Like you think your clients are going to come and you think
people are going to be supportive because they're so
excited. But it's really hard to say.
Like when the shine wears off 3 months in, are people going to
be as supportive or people goingto be as into it?

(06:07):
And it just genuinely feels likea snowball that will not stop,
like rolling and collecting snow.
We have been so lucky. People are just so excited.
And I think this is something that, you know, it's, I feel
stupid saying it because like corporate law is not generally
something that people find exciting.
Yes, but but the people genuinely are so have been, I

(06:31):
think people wanted this. I think people want sort of a
fresh look at things and they want an opportunity to to to
look at how they get their legalservices and say, oh, hey, like
there is a better way to do this.
There is a more personable way to do it.
So. Even just knowing you, I feel
like your approach is more accessible to everyday people.

(06:56):
I said to you beforehand, like, I'm a business, I have a
business, but I'm not a businessperson.
And so sometimes that world can feel overwhelming when I'm just
trying to wrap my head around it.
And just having interacted with you now for I think almost about
six months ish, your energy is not this scary.
I'm a lawyer energy like you're much more approachable.

(07:18):
And I think that that helps lends itself well to, you know,
shifting into a new direction when you're positioning your law
firm as we are different from the rest.
Yeah, it is a big part of it. We're trying not not to lean too
hard into that, but a big part of what we've talked about is
sort of the bringing down of barriers with with people and
with how they get their legal services.

(07:40):
I was the first lawyer in my family.
I eat like I, I think I, I'm very mindful of, I've had
friends call me and just say, Hey, I have this question that I
don't know who else to ask, right?
And I, and that's always stuck with me as like, I never want to
be a person who people don't feel like they can come to.
I want people to come to me and say I need help when they need

(08:02):
help. And so I've been really lucky
that that this is a good opportunity to do that.
And that's, and that's kind of the thing we want people to pick
up the phone because I don't, I don't want people to suffer.
I don't want people to feel stressed.
And maybe I'm not the person to help you solve it, but I'm sure
I can find somebody that that will help you solve it if that's
what what you need. So I think that we've been

(08:24):
really, really, it's just reallynice to hear that that is
actually resonating and that that's working because that
means so much to us as part of the of what we're doing, just
that people really do benefit from what we're doing.
On that note, I am looking for legal representation so I feel
like I'm going to reach out to you after this on a non fun

(08:46):
podcast. Fair enough.
Yeah. So I want to go back a little
bit. Where did it come from, this
passion for law? Like where did that career path
start to form for you? Yeah, so it started with me
watching too much of the practice and doing McDermott as
a kid. I'll be, I'll be honest that

(09:07):
that is kind of where it started.
But no, but the long running joke is that lawyers don't Law
school's full of people who didn't realize as kids that when
people said to you you should goto law school, that was an
insult. And so, so I've always been
pretty competitive. I've always been pretty quick

(09:29):
and I've always been a big reader.
And my husband is also a lawyer.We met in law school and we both
identified that the biggest factor for job satisfaction And
lawyers as people who read a lotas kids, like just read big
books as those fantasy heist books, as I mentioned.
But the, the, that's kind of thenature of, of the, the work.

(09:49):
I like what I do. I like that I'm a corporate
lawyer because I get to help. I didn't know I wanted to be a
corporate lawyer. I actually sort of you go to law
school and, and you have to keepan open mind about what kind of
law you want to practice becauseyou really don't know what
you're going to love and what's going to sort of fit with your
skill set. And I thought I wanted to be a
real estate lawyer after law school and that did not work

(10:11):
out. And I'm really grateful because
corporate law, as it turns out, is a really good benefit from
me. I like that I help people build
things. I like that I help people
protect their businesses. I like that I help people sort
of like grow what they want to grow.
I don't like, I don't go to court.
I don't do litigation. So I don't do the fighting side

(10:33):
of things. I mean, there is, there's,
there's always conflict in law. And so there's conflict in what
I do. But I like the generally
speaking work where we're conflicted about how we grow,
how we move to the next step, how we do something, not we're
conflicted about sort of what the end goal is.
Like people want, people want togrow something, and I get to see

(10:56):
how I actually help people do what they want to do It's cool.
You mentioning the argumentativepiece as as a child, so I can
relate to that because I was always that kid that was like
you, you need to be in law because you always have
something to say about everything.
You always have some, some quip about, you know, whatever is

(11:16):
going on. Yeah.
As a kid in a family and your parents were like, can you, can
you mind your own business? Like how?
So I want to dig into that a little bit, like totally dynamic
because I just relate to it. So I I can't.
Yeah, step over it. I know my experience.
But like for you, like what? What was that like as a kid?
I did not know this until recently, but I'm fairly sure

(11:37):
that I have undiagnosed ADHD andthat that led a lot to that
because I didn't understand thatarguing people over things was
like a bad thing. I thought we were always
clarifying things and trying to get down to the bottom of it.
And so like it never crossed my mind that like re you're just

(11:58):
allowed to live and like not knowing, right?
That wasn't the, and nobody sortof.
And I was very determined and I'm very like.
And so like people just thought,yeah, sure, it's easier to just
let her like have this one. So that was, that was the
reality of things. And I, I think I, I do think
that it really fit really well with sort of how, where I ended

(12:19):
up, but it was, it's tough when you're a kid and people don't
realize that that's kind of whatlike what, what's driving
things. I felt like an oddball for a
long time. I felt like I didn't fit in.
So it, that was, that was difficult and it took me a long
time. I think it's especially in law

(12:40):
and like really traditional professions, people tell you to
sort of fit it like that you should try harder to fit in and
that you should try it harder toact like, like for me, it was a
very especially like in the 90s,right?
It was a very like, this is how girls behave.
And you either get to fall in the like traditional girl
category or the I'm not like other girls category.

(13:04):
And I didn't cleanly fit either of those bills.
So I always kind of felt like I was straddling 2 worlds and
figuring out like where I'm supposed to fit in and how I'm
supposed to function when I liked hair and makeup but I also
wanted to play with Lego. Like I, I didn't and I didn't
understand why I had to choose. I still don't and they still

(13:28):
hate when people suggest that topeople.
I want everybody to have this like authentic life experience,
I guess that I was entitled to when I was growing up.
I combine with that so much. I feel like if we were in the
same class, I would have gravitated towards you because I
was that kid that was so, you know, I was like a closeted kid
and so very quiet, kept to myself.
And I always gravitated towards girls in my class that were like

(13:51):
outspoken and because I felt like they were they almost
represented me in a way. And so, so I, I look at that and
I'm like, yeah, we would have been friends.
Yeah, I, you know, I, I feel like we would have it's, it's
one of those things. I mean, I will say like, I don't
think I was, I, I, I, I don't have a lot of friends from high
school. I grew up in a small town.

(14:12):
And then I kind of moved away and my parents moved away
because we're not from, we're immigrants.
So like it was just us. And so it was easy for like,
everybody to get up and go, and then it's hard to kind of stay
in touch. I think it was tough being a kid
in the small town. And I think it was like, maybe
sometimes I wasn't the best version of myself.
And I'm just really glad that now I feel like I am and I get

(14:33):
to be that person all the time. There's a lot of that energy in
the world right now where peopleare finally, especially our
generation, where we're coming to terms with I can just be
myself and be a full 360 of you know, you talked about the Lego
versus the makeup and it does. And that's the thing.
It's like it doesn't have to be verses they can live
simultaneously. And I think that that creates a

(14:53):
much more well-rounded human. So my business partner's older
than me. He's like an older brother.
Like we, we really feel like there's definitely like a
generational gap and he's the best.
He really is. But we have these moments and I
talk about like I said, it took me a long time to kind of find
my footing in law in particular and like figure out a firm where

(15:15):
I was like excited and I felt supported and I did at my last.
I wanna be clear that like our starting for firm isn't cuz I
didn't feel that way before, butI always said to him, like, like
the cost of conforming is too high.
And, and he always took it to mean like the financial cost.
And then, and I had to explain to him in the, in the forming of

(15:38):
the culture that we're building and, and, and sort of a team, I
said, no, it's not about the, the money cost.
It's about the energy cost. It's about the like the cost to
yourself esteem. It's about how you.
And so like, and so he has started, I've noticed him
starting to say like, Oh yeah, the cost of worrying about that
is too. And I'm like, yes, I'm like, I

(15:59):
got you. You are internalizing this
notion that like, yeah, not living your authentic self and
getting to be your full self everywhere you go.
Like the, the, the emotional toll that that takes, it's just
too high. There's no, there's no coming
back from that. You cannot produce the same way
if you and not the production isthe be all end all.

(16:20):
But like, you cannot put as muchinto your life if you can't
bring all of yourself to the table. 1000%, I think our first
meeting, I got that right away from you because I'm a very much
a person. What you see is what you get.
No matter if I'm in a business meeting, I'm talking to somebody
on the street, I'm doing the podcast, I'm whatever at home

(16:40):
with my family. I'm generally like 95% the same
across the board because at thispoint, you know, I'm 37, I don't
have time to do all the bullshitbecause I also know that I'm not
putting anything bad out into the world.
We're not doing anything that isdetrimental to others.
We're just being ourselves whiletrying to carve out a new path

(17:01):
for, you know, as entrepreneurs,right?
To me, I'm, I'm like, why do it elsewhere?
And I loved that in our first meeting, you know, once again,
going back to a meeting, lawyers, like I've never worked
with lawyers before and through the business and through my work
and day one, I was like, oh, we're good.
This is going to be great. Yeah, it is a sadly rare
perspective and law and I like I've been very clear about like

(17:23):
we're not gatekeeping anything. Like if any other lawyer ever
asked, like I would give them everything I would.
I would tell them how I calculate, how I pay people.
I would tell them like what we do for self, right.
Like I tell people everything that they want to know.
Sometimes they tell them things they don't want to know.
That is sadly kind of rare. And I and I wish more people

(17:45):
embraced that and that like you get to, but law is really
traditional and it's very cookiecutter and, and, and there's a
lot of pressure on you to followa specific path.
And if you don't, and if you fall off the track, like there
is no way to get back on is kindof the messaging that you get a
lot of times. And I just wish that people

(18:06):
didn't have to feel that way andthat that there are better the
people got to hear from lawyers earlier in their careers.
Any practice of law where you take your job seriously is
valid. I personally just choose not to
take myself that seriously, but like, but just like, if you take
the work seriously and if you'reserious about helping people,

(18:28):
that's what matters, so. So you talked a little bit about
working previously to the law firm and some potential not so
great jobs. Can you share a little bit about
those turning points in your career that shaped how you
practice a lot today? Part of it was I had, I had to
put in more work. I think, you know, the way that
we talked about sort of how hardit is to, to find yourself and

(18:51):
then be true to yourself when there's like pressure around
that. So I had to put in a fair bit of
work to get there. But I think the most memorable
moment was there was a lawyer atmy firm the first time I moved
to Kitchener Waterloo, the firstfirm that I worked at here.
And due to some interpersonal things, we didn't get to work
together a lot. And then she started up a female

(19:13):
lawyers group in town and I joined and she started
mentorship program and she actually assigned herself as my
mentor. And I was a little anxious
because I was worried that we weren't going to get along and
that there was this. There's still a lot of like
competition among women, especially in law.
Like, you feel like there's onlyroom for one at the top, which
is so stupid. But that was the reality.

(19:34):
And I was super anxious. And then I remember our third
meeting as mentor mentee, we were getting along super well.
And I just started talking aboutmy frustrations at the firm that
I worked at. And by like 20 minutes into it,
I was just like crying at our lunch table at a restaurant that
no longer exists. But it was like, and this poor

(19:57):
Cynthia was like this. She was like.
I think that you need a new job.I think that you fundamental and
she said she was like, I think that you have a fundamental
misalignment in how you practicelaw and it's OK to have a
difference in like some things in life, but you but you have to

(20:20):
at your core, see what you do inlaw.
I don't know if you can see my dog.
He's now walking around behind me, I think.
You're this is all. Right now, no, he's lying down,
but he but she just kind of saidlike you have a like you have to
have a fundamental agreement about how you see law and you

(20:40):
see it as a service that people should be able to to get to
build something. And that where you work, your
boss does not see it that way. And it's not that they're wrong
and you're right, but you cannotcontinue working in an
environment where you don't fundamentally have that core
value. You need people around you that
agree with that. And that moment was like really,

(21:04):
really impactful for me. I'd say that was probably a big
one. Another big 1 was so when my
business partner and I started talking about starting our own
firm, I really wasn't sure. And it actually came more out of
my, my enthusiasm for, again, making sure people are living
their best lives. And I just kind of had

(21:25):
volunteered to say, I will help you with your business planning
and like help you build a strategic plan that you're
excited about. And I, and then through our
discussion, it like it was really up to me if I wanted to
be a part of this and if I wanted to push it forward or if
I just said, like, I'll just help you with your business
plan, but I'm out was kind of the two ways that things could

(21:47):
go for me. And I told almost nobody except
a friend of mine, again, anothermentor and I and I and I had
laid out like I, I knew the spreadsheet, right?
Like I'm a big spreadsheet person.
So I laid out the spreadsheet and I had laid out the pros and
the cons and the pros and the cons.
And I had said like, here are all my thoughts on this.
And at the end of me talking, she said, do you want my opinion

(22:11):
or do you just want me to be supportive?
And I said no, I want your opinion.
And I said I don't even know what you'd support because I'm
so torn between these things. And she said I think you should
do it. I think you absolutely.
She was like, hands down, no qualms.
This is what you should do. It is the right thing for you.
You will be amazed at how quickly things happen for you.

(22:32):
And it just felt like, yeah, like suddenly like it just
unlocked me realizing like, yeah, OK.
Like I don't need to be afraid. Like this is the thing that I
have to do. So surprisingly, I guess now
that I think about it, it's it'sbeen like mentors, women who
have said no, like you have to sort of ask yourself what you

(22:53):
really want and then do that without being afraid.
And that's where you, you. And that's kind of, I think how
I ended up here is like having that support and having people
that were really helpful in that.
This might sound cheesy, but I, I'm genuinely curious to kind of
pick this apart, but for you having that support from these
women in your life, what was thething that finally got you to

(23:16):
stop being afraid? And just to say, like, I'm just
going to fucking do it. I don't think I'm, I don't think
I'm not afraid. I think I'm still afraid a
little bit. But I, I think that that was
such a small piece of my, I think it was that my, my
excitement for it and my energy for it became so strong.
And my realization that like I had, I think it was that I had

(23:39):
this moment where I realized like the only things that I was
giving up to do this were thingsthat didn't matter.
And that, I think that was like,when I looked at what, when I
thought about what really mattered to me, it was, it was
the opportunity to build something great.

(23:59):
And knowing that that was the opportunity, I was like, oh, OK,
so then I, then I'm good. I'm, I'm really fortunate.
As I said, my husband's also a lawyer.
So like financially I'm, I'm protected.
I, I could afford to take a riskin on that front of things.
But I think I just realized I was so excited for it and that

(24:19):
the only thing that would be holding me back is like fear.
And that's not an like like this, this, this need for
security. And that's not enough.
Like I think you have to have reasons for doing a thing, not
just reasons for not doing a thing. 100% and I say this all
the time, at this point in my life, I'm I'm making sure that I

(24:42):
go towards things that excite me.
I'm As adults, we are so jaded. The world that we live in as we
see it crumbling around us, it'svery easy to lack or to not
necessarily find joy. And so if something is exciting
you, why would you ignore that? I find that like I do that all
the time. I work with startups, right and

(25:03):
entrepreneurs all the time. And you can just tell being
passionate about something like I don't think that's just, I
guess what I'm saying is 1,000,000% agree.
What I don't what I don't think it's just that that makes you
happier, which is important, butit's also like the passion is
what makes you successful. It's it's the 8020 rule, right?

(25:25):
Like, but you have to, you have to dig into the things that you
are passionate about because you'll have more energy for
them, because you will, like youwill find ways to overcome
obstacles for the things you arepassionate about in ways that
you would never find obstacles, like ways to overcome obstacles
for things that you don't care about cuz you don't care about
them. Why would you?

(25:45):
That's the thing. We need that if we're gonna be
leading. In your case, you're leading
A-Team. You have a group of people
working with you. You have to have that for them
to feel that, because otherwise what are we doing here?
Yeah, Yeah, I, I and that's whatlike I think that's what get up
gets us through the hard days. It's the, it's everybody's sort
of enthusiasm and commitment to the cause.

(26:08):
And we, as I said, we've grown faster than we expected and
there's been a lot of pressure to sort of accept maybe people
that don't 100% fit the vision as a result or buy into the idea
of what we're doing and the corevalues.
And we've just kind of said no, like where we we've had and now

(26:29):
we've had reminders along the road of why that's the right
thing to do. Like we have to stand firm on
the things that we on, on peoplebuying into the vision and the
core values and what we're doinghere.
It's not enough to say, well, they're a good lawyer, they're a
good clerk or whatever. They have to be committed to
this team and what we're doing. You launched Pulse Law less than

(26:52):
six months ago. Like you're you.
You're. I'm so tired.
Oh my goodness, I, I know the feeling.
So less, less than six months ago.
So as you, you and Todd were putting this together and
thinking about, you know, the vision of the firm, how has that

(27:15):
shifted since you've gone publicor solidified since opening the
the doors? It's actually shifted not that
much. We've been really fortunate.
We've been a little bit. There have been things that have
been slower and there are thingsthat have been faster than we
were expecting. That's probably the only thing I
would say in terms of that. Like we had really big sights

(27:38):
set on new models and new practices and new things.
And we do still ask ourselves regularly like, is this the
best? That that was a big core thing
about starting the firm was we ask ourselves, and in everything
we do, is there a better way to do this?
We're not sort of taking the status quo and saying, OK, we're
just going to go with that. We're like, and it's not, it's

(27:59):
easy to say that about software or like little things that are
sort of naturally modernizing, although we are being very
aggressive about that part. But it's also that I look at
like my processes and my HR manual.
Like so I have my like employee manual and I said like, OK, this
is fine for stage one, but for stage 2, this is not what we're
doing. We have to scrap this.

(28:20):
We have to be more like rationaland modern and not give people a
40 page document that they're not going to read about like how
they take vacation days. This is so stupid.
And so, so, so that's been like a big part of kind of the, the
process and it's just realizing that some things take more time.
Like I'm a very like I get things done, I am determined

(28:45):
and, and yet I am sitting and waiting for the city to give us
the permit for our new space. And I've been waiting for a
month and a half and there is nothing I can do to get the city
to give me my permit faster. So that's kind of I think the,
the, the one, but but on the other side, like other things
have been really fast. Clients have come, the work has

(29:07):
sort of flowed even in the downturn in the economy, the
team has really come together and everybody's really bonded
really, really well. So I think that that's been a
big part of it. The little stuff is like
surprising sometimes, but other than that, it's been amazing.
I think the only thing we weren't really expecting is sort
of the explosion of growth and what that sort of means to us.

(29:31):
That's been the only thing that's been unexpected.
But I, I made a watch band that has like my core values on it,
like the core values from our firm.
And like I still look at it and I'm like, yes, I love that I get
a reminder every day. And those are still the thing
that every day I look at it and say, is this the best quality
work that I can do? Is this the most innovative way

(29:52):
that we can do it? And are we and are we making
sure that our team and our clients feel supported and like
they can be their best selves with with this?
So far so good. How are you keeping yourself in
that headspace? Because I know like even with
work, when you're constantly thinking about all these things,
you're managing so many moving parts.

(30:13):
How do you keep yourself kind ofin that, OK, let's continue to
focus on what are our values andhow do we keep the train moving?
For me, it's about committing time to it.
I like dedicated time in my calendar.
So my business partner is like less social than I am.
He likes quiet time and I've hadto be adamant with him about

(30:36):
like, no, we book, we book basically two hours every two
weeks. We book every quarter like a day
for ourselves to get through ourstrategic planning.
I continue, I have an operationsmanager and I've been really
adamant that we, we book time inour calendar to talk about the
strategic plan and put together the, the, the goals and the next

(30:57):
steps in it. Same thing with our financials.
Like we, I, I have to be very intentional with my time to make
sure I don't lose track of thosethings.
And then the other thing is like, I have these like
emotional checks. Like yesterday, I could feel
myself getting short with peopleand I realized that it had
nothing to do with them. It was that I was anxious about
the amount of time that I had committed to a specific thing.

(31:20):
And so I, I was like, no, you, you committed the time being
anxious about it isn't going to help you now.
So take, take the take it and then go find half an hour later
tonight, like be late to your event, whatever, but take the
half hour that you need to to deal with whatever is causing
your anxiety, because no one else deserves that.

(31:43):
And I've been really honest. I'd say that's the last thing is
like sometimes now, like I manage our business, which means
I manage 15 people. So when something's wrong, they
come to me all the time. And I'm a lawyer.
Those are two full time jobs. Like I don't.
And so I, So what I do sometimesis I do come, I go to people and

(32:04):
I just say like, OK, like I understand.
Like they'll come to me with a problem and I'll say, OK, I
cannot give you 100% of my energy and my attention right
now. Like, are you willing to accept
the 50% that I have for you? Or do we need to schedule a time
where we can, where we I can genuinely listen the best that I
can? Yeah.

(32:25):
And then the last thing is I think my people are my priority.
I cannot do this job without my team.
And I don't want to do anything that would ever sort of damage
them. And so I always prioritize them.
The rest of it, like what I do, isn't life or death.
If the client has to wait another hour for the answer I
told him he'd get by 5:00 PM fine.

(32:45):
Like my team comes first, always.
So much of what you're saying today is resonating with me and
just how No, I'm not. I'm not being silly like I'm, it
resonates with me so much because how you're talking
about, you know, coming from what you were younger to who you
are today and how you've managedto deal with your internal
landscape and apply that to, youknow, just being a better human

(33:08):
in your day-to-day. That has been the narrative in
my mind over the last couple of years where I'm like, how do I
streamline this incessant noise that is going on and the
constant like, I have to manage so many things.
And so hearing you say that I'm,I'm like, I'm not alone.
I'm not alone. Yeah, you're not like it that.
No, you're not. We're not like this is.

(33:31):
And the way that society has been built means that it's not
getting better anytime soon. And it sucks that it's incumbent
on us to like find ways to cope better, but they are there and
you have to find them. I am really fortunate.
I like, I feel like I don't say that enough that, but I, I don't
like lucky because I don't thinkit's luck.

(33:52):
But I do think I am fortunate that I have the supports that I
have in my life. I have the friends and the
family that I have and the coworkers that I have.
And and without them, it would be much harder to, to do this
anyway, but especially the way that we're choosing to do it.
So I think I'm lucky that I haveI'm fortunate that I have the

(34:14):
people that I have to to supportme in this.
And there are days where it's hard.
Like you just can't. You got to be.
I think the biggest thing is yougot to be I I remind myself all
the time. I have to be nicer to myself.
I have to sort of say, OK, like re that's not yeah, like, like,
no, like you're being mad at yourself because you spent 15
minutes like scrolling. No, you're entitled to that

(34:36):
time. Yeah, like, yeah, if I wouldn't
yell at my mentee about it, I can't yell at myself about it.
That that actually. So I tend to use that as my
thing is, like if I wouldn't, ifI wouldn't be mean to a friend
about it, like I can't be mean to myself about it.
What? What's the?
What are? We doing.
Yeah. Yeah, I feel you on that.
There's so many times where I think about the amount of, you

(34:56):
know, oh, like, Gee, you're so like, you're like my therapist
like you, you're so kind and youhave such good views on, you
know, how to separate work and life in this end.
But then the feedback I get, especially from my boyfriend who
we live together, he's like, you're not good to yourself.
You treat yourself like I like Iknow.
It's so easy to like fall into it.

(35:18):
It really is. But but you got to be and, and
that's The thing is I think we're just all so much more
comfortable being mean to ourselves than we are other
people. Well, I think nice people, I
think good people are more comfortable being mean to
themselves than other people. Some people should feel less
comfortable being mean to other people, present company

(35:38):
excluded, but you know what I mean.
We, we, we know that, yeah. Yeah, but I do think, but I
think that's true, right? Like we, we have to find ways to
be nicer to people. And I've chosen to hijack it by
thinking like, if I wouldn't be this mean to my friend, why
would I be this mean to myself? A lot of the conversation we've
been having is around how you your approach to law is.

(35:59):
You want to kind of differentiate yourself from that
traditional old school way. And so you've talked about
rethinking like how law firms operate and specifically with
Pulse and including alternate fee structure.
So like, why is this important and how do you hope that this
will change the industry? Lawyers are expensive and
there's a reason for that. Like it costs a lot of money for

(36:21):
me to keep my lights on and it, and it took a lot of time and a
lot of energy for me to become the expert that I am and what I
do. And I'm not shy about that.
Like I, I've, I've told many clients I am not the cheapest
solution to your problem, but I'm the best 1.
And that's all well and good if people can afford it.
There are lots of reasons why people can't afford it.

(36:44):
You know, as we talked about earlier, accessible legal
services really important to me.The fact that I want people to
be able to feel like they can pick up the phone and call or at
least like get help even when they're strapped for cash or
they're struggling or whatever it is, right?
Startups cash flow is crazy. Like they don't always have
money and so, but they still deserve the best quality of

(37:06):
legal services. I think I said early in this
process like we're really in kitchen Waterloo.
We have world class talent. When I sit in meetings with my
clients, the lawyers on the other side for me that the
companies they are negotiating with are the giants in Silicon
Valley and New York and Europe and like and and Asia and and

(37:28):
and they get these lawyers on the other side of the table that
that cost $2000 an hour US right.
And my clients deserve the same quality of, of, of service and
they will build something betterif they have the same quality of
service. There's only so much I can do to
make my legal fees cheaper. And again, I said, I think that

(37:51):
I'm worth the amount that I charge per hour.
But there are other things that will make that legal services
more, more accessible, right? So if as a business owner, you
know what you're expecting on a month to month basis from us, if
you know that a specific projectis going to cost a specific
amount, right? So subscription services are

(38:13):
based on the idea that there's abunch of stuff built into them.
But the biggest thing is that you know how much you're going
to pay per month for the services and that you might
fluctuate over the year of how much you need us.
But but the services are there for you at a fixed rate and you
can budget for it accordingly. And there's built in sort of
services to automate certain things to make sure that you're

(38:35):
getting your, the things you need at a fairly economic rate
at that. And then on the flat rates and
stuff like you have to know how much you're paying for stuff.
I wouldn't go and buy a car and then have an accept an answer
from the dealer that was like, well, you'll find out how much
you pay for it a month after driving it.
That's not right. That's an answer.

(38:56):
Sometimes it is hard for us to say exactly how much stuff it's
going to cost, but a lot of times it's relatively easy.
And at least I should give you asense and a warning when things
are going to get out of control,right?
Like I've you've got to, you've got to know, know when these
things are coming. People are really bad at having
uncomfortable conversations. I'm not.
And I think that that helps a lot that no, it really, but
that's the reality. Like a lot of lawyers are like

(39:18):
uncomfortable. Oh, no one wants to talk about
money. Oh, everybody wants the cheapest
thing possible. I don't believe that.
I don't believe people want the cheapest solution.
I think they want the best one they can afford.
And it's just a question of making it affordable.
So, yeah, to me, those are like really important building blocks
of the notion of making our services accessible.

(39:39):
That's the core of it and. So how has that been received so
far? So far so good.
It's been a little bit the subscription model in particular
it's based on some back end software that we're developing.
So that's just been a little bitslower to get going than we
ideally wanted. The first kind of six months has
really been well, the first three months were.

(40:00):
Exclusively basically taking thework we were doing at our
previous firm and sort of transferring it to a new firm
and getting things like a traditional thing up and running
more or less. And not all traditional, but you
know, like the base, our base services, they had to get up and
running and now and now we finally have a little bit more
time and I'm hoping in the next three months I have a lot more

(40:21):
time to dedicate to, to it. But so far everyone's really
excited. Like in general, people want
more flat rate quotes and they've wanted them for years.
People want to want more transparency and expectation of
their costs. And I think as we successfully
build those into things like ourwebsite and and our processes
and just our communications withclients, I know that people will

(40:43):
accept them really, really well.Do you see that being something
that you could own the IP and potentially like not I don't
know if the term franchise it out, but like have that be
something? Yeah, yeah.
So yes, is the answer and that that is part of I guess what I
will say is we're primarily busybeing lawyers and, and running a
law firm. And so I don't think either of

(41:05):
us has like sat down and been like, here's the business case
and here's the like model and here's where we'd make the most
money. That's not really what it's
designed to do, but we, but we do think there's a market out
there for like a lot of my clients come to me and say,
well, I did the first draft of my agreement in ChatGPT and I'm

(41:26):
like, there's a better option that isn't that, that, that
isn't paying me $3000, but it's also not accepting the $50.00 a
month subscription ChatGPT and what they tell you, right?
There's a middle ground there. And so I do, I think there is a
model for that. And I think that there's,
there's maybe a business case for making that happen.

(41:47):
It's not our only priority, our priority as our clients in the
work that we do, but we we hope that we can find a way to sort
of blend those together to do something that will help people.
What are your thoughts on peoplewho cut and paste their
contracts together from the Internet?
Like I'm sure a lot of people doit.
Yeah, they do. And it's been like so people cop

(42:09):
before ChatGPT, people still copy and pasted and sent me
contracts that they got from somewhere or whatever.
Like there's a lot of in, I workwith a lot of tech companies.
There's a lot of buzzwords, right?
Like I've been hearing them for a decade.
That's the reality of the game. But I think people think they're
saving themselves more time and energy than they are.

(42:31):
I love efficient. I'm like, I'm really into
efficiency. I love anything that I think
will like make me more efficient.
I'm so into it as a concept. And then so like I'm crazy
efficient in in the things that I know I can do.
Like if with the don't involve sort of a back and forth with
another side, I'm so efficient. And so I think people bring me

(42:54):
these ChatGPT contracts and I'm like, OK, guys, like it takes me
two hours to review a contract you sent me.
So it takes me 1/2 hour for you to explain to me what you're
trying to do. Then it takes me two hours to
review the contract and against what a, what a quality contract
looks like and, and fix it. And then I have to spend, you

(43:18):
know, 30 minutes to an hour fixing it.
And then, and then I send it to you with the notes, right?
And then you have it. It takes me half an hour to
understand what you want and then about an hour to customize
my version of that contract. OK.
And that's not always the case, to be fair.
Like I was on the phone this morning with someone and and I
will edit their ChatGPT contract.

(43:39):
They admitted that's where they sent it to me from.
But that's OK. But that is kind of, but people,
I think think that like, oh, these shortcuts sort of help.
And sometimes they do. I go to Chat GPTI, go to
perplexity. Like I go to these things, I go
to ask Todd, which is our internal chatbot.
And that's the one that we have that we're working on sort of

(44:00):
developing more aggressively. But I, I go to those things for
specific things. But sometimes you think you're
saving time, you think you're helping yourself, but you're
really not. And my big thing is like, I
don't as a second year lawyer, someone came to me and said
like, well, I hope you're the best at this because you're

(44:20):
certainly not the cheapest. And I said to them, you're
welcome to go to the cheapest lawyer that you find to do this
work instead. And you can come back and pay me
twice as much to fix it when you're done.
And that's kind of the like, I just see it that way is like
either you do it right the firsttime or you pay, you pay, you
have to pay somebody more to fixit down the road and nobody

(44:42):
wants that. 100% I say that all the time with my own services
because I'm also not the cheapest.
And I think about people being like, oh, I can get it done
cheaper. I can do it myself.
You know, especially now with AI, they're like creating their
own logos. And so I'm like, OK, sure.
And then, yeah. And then I'm like, come back to
me. Later.
I no like yeah. And you know, like we could not

(45:04):
have ever created a logo that welove as much as the one that you
created for us. We couldn't have we couldn't
have come up with the name without snow collective, right?
Like we just could not have donethese things.
We tried like we spent three months trying to pick a name and
then and then we joke that like we mostly paid a marketing
company $30,000 to pick a name for us.

(45:24):
That's not true, obviously, but like this is the that's kind of
where we work three months. And we were like, well, This is
why lawyers just name their law firms after themselves because
it's exhausting. And that's yeah, it's just,
yeah, you yeah, you absolutely can do something that if
everything breaks right, we'll be fine.
But like, how much are you willing to my in my in what I

(45:46):
ask is how much are you willing to gamble that all of that's
gonna break, right? Like I said, I'm on the same
page. So you mentioned a little bit
about our collaboration on the brand, which honestly for me, I
had such a good time working on it.
I I don't know about you, but I it was such.
A Yeah, we had a great time. What was it like for you
building a brand that reflects your your ethos as lawyers?

(46:08):
It was really fun for me. I'm a big planner and a big like
like I like and I and I and I love an aesthetic thing.
So for me personally, it was really fun.
It was great. I love and I feel like there's
like a real, like every time I look at like our colours or logo

(46:29):
or even just our like name and stuff, I get really excited
about our fonts. Geo just so you know, like I'm
like, I like often like I have, I have our, I have the, the like
where I've saved our brand Biblelike, and then I go and look at
it and like we like, I like, like I get like excited about
our fonts. I tried to, we were trying to
fix our templates in Outlook andI was trying to see if we could

(46:52):
use our special fonts in our emails.
So far, no luck, but we're working on it.
It's so I know, but like anyway,but this is the so like we've
been having like no, I loved it.Like I really like it.
I really care about that stuff. I'm one of those people who
watched like the Netflix documentary on Helvetica.
Like I'm, I'm, I, I love all of those things.

(47:14):
And the other thing for me has been like getting to sort of
secondhand watch my partner get excited about it 'cause like,
you know, he's a, he's a Gen. X like dude that like hasn't
thought about the, it. Like he doesn't really care
about the aesthetics. He's, he's not super into it.
For him, it was like a very perfunctory kind of thing.
And for him to get like excited about it was like really fun.

(47:36):
And the, the, I think the best example of that was with the
logo. He was like, yeah, I like this
logo. This one's my favorite.
And then like 30 minutes later, I'd get another e-mail being
like, yeah, I think it's like really cool and like whatever.
And then like the next day he was like, he was like, there's
like really cool animation options or like different
coloring options for the, for the logo.

(47:57):
And I'm like, yeah, buddy. And so like every time, like you
just come back and be like more and more excited about it and
like the color scheme. And oh, and then I will say the
other thing is like it was so fun.
And I feel like our color schemewas just like this, like great
warm shift from what you see on a lot of law firms and what you

(48:17):
see in a lot of corporate environments.
Like I feel like I see a lot of like purple and cobalt blue and
like I like that color, but likeI don't.
But just like getting this warm shift in our color scheme really
felt like symbolic of what we are trying to do as a firm and
that was really great. That's the thing I love is

(48:38):
especially because you guys cameto me and said, OK, we're a law
firm. We don't want to stray too far,
but we also don't want to look like everybody else.
I hear that. And I think, OK, like we're
going to try and push this a little bit further than the
traditional. Anybody who knows me from my
early days geographic is I'm allabout standing out like that is

(48:59):
my thing. I don't wanna look generic.
And so when it came to you guys,I said you're even if you gave
me like a 10% like we're open. I'm like, we're going for it
because what are we doing here? The world is so full of like
carbon copies. Let's stand out and even just
from your energies that to me, that's why I go through that
whole process at the beginning of what do you want out of this?
Who are you? What's your what is what is your

(49:20):
platform? What are you standing on that
makes you do the things you do? It's a symbiotic process for me
and so I'm just so thankful thatyou guys loved it.
I, I love it. I love to have that out in My
Portfolio too, so. I have like our logo on my
phone. I like have it everywhere and
people are always commenting on it and how great they think it

(49:41):
is so. That warms my heart.
It just once again, it's like when you with your clients, I
feel like you know, I not that Ineed the validation, but I am in
the right spot. I am doing what I'm supposed to
be doing. You know not to make this about
you are. No, you are like don't be wrong.
The process was great and like every every step of it was
necessary, but you were our favorite part.

(50:01):
Oh, thank you. That's so, that's so kind.
I appreciate it. And same with you guys,
honestly. Like I love people who are just
authentically themselves. And so this is an aside, but I'm
gonna say this. Whatever, first time I met you,
you know the deadpan like I I was like it took me a minute to.

(50:22):
Like, Oh yeah, that's fair, yeah.
And then I was like, oh, but then I, it was that, that
initial like, OK, I, I don't know if is she vibing with me?
Like what's the, I can't tell. And then what's I got to send to
you? I'm like, oh, I love this woman.
She's like everything like. That's very sweet.
I don't, sorry. Am I allowed to swear on this?

(50:42):
I literally open with what the. Fuck.
Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah, right.
OK. So like, yeah.
So like, so that's a combinationof two things.
One, my dad is British and my humor is like very, very flat.
And then 2 is like I have terrible resting bitch face.
I really do. I was like my mom and I, my

(51:02):
parents were visiting last weekend and we were like making
friendship bracelets. And I, there's a part where you
have to super glue something together.
And every time I was like sitting and super glueing
something together, my mom wouldlike look at me and be like,
what's wrong? Because I just looked so like so
cold apparently. Yeah, it's it's like a weird.

(51:23):
I know I have AI love when I first meet people.
I'm fairly different and and I and in my sense of humor is not
for everybody. No, I love it, honestly.
Like I said, it was not initial because also I'm gauging you
through a screen like I've I've never met in person.
And so I'm sitting there and I'mlike, OK, I can't tell if she's
like, not that I need you to like me, but I can't.
I couldn't tell. And then once we got into it, I

(51:45):
was like, oh, I fully understand.
And I'm like, I love this woman.Yeah, and well, and there's a
lot of like for me, a lot of it was also about making sure that
like my partner was happy and that he was fine because this is
much more my environment than his.
So I, I constantly have to be like, come into the
conversation. Would you like to express some
thoughts? Why don't you share the thing?

(52:07):
So it's just not his natural like as he said, right?
He's just, it's not as outgoing as me.
So it's not his most natural environment.
So it's more about making sure to me that first meeting was
about being like, how do we engage you more?
Cuz I will engage as soon as we as soon as things get going.
So. We need to hang out in person

(52:29):
outside of a work because I feellike we would just be able to
shoot the shit and it would be such a good, good vibe.
Yeah, well, I don't know if, youknow, like that's how Dan and I
met at like a work thing, like at A at a mixer for
professionals like in tech and and we just and like the event
was fine, but kind of weird. And I just was like, and he kind

(52:51):
of just was like, oh, I'm relatively new to kW, you know,
wouldn't mind making friends. And I immediately was like, yes,
we're now best friends. That's the deal.
Like we're not like like I was like, sorry if you had other
plans, but this is now the plan.We are your best friends and it
and that's the like you you do you find your people right like

(53:12):
and you have to you have to hangon to that so. 100% I find.
So Dan has met so many people inmy life like he's come down to
Windsor area, he's met my family.
Like we, you know, we go back, we met at a conference seven
years ago or whatever, and we actually just went back to that
conference for the first time last week.
And, and it was such a full circle moment where it was like

(53:34):
we we met at that conference sixyears ago.
We've been working together eversince.
And now we're going together as like partners in.
Yeah. In business.
I always find he's met so many of my friends and vice versa.
And we, we keep good people in our lives.
And so if you guys are friends, I'm like, we, we're going to,
we're going to make something happen at some point.
Yeah, absolutely. I went to law school in Windsor,
so I don't get back as much I should.

(53:56):
But like I do, yeah, I very occasionally visit so.
When were you living here? 2010 to 20 or sorry 2011 to 24.
No 2010 to 2013. OK, yeah, I was in Toronto so we
wouldn't have crossed paths, butI want to ask you a little bit.
So outside of work, you had mentioned a little bit about, we

(54:16):
talked about like mental health and your recent discovery, not
discovery, but learning about ADHD.
What has that journey looked like for you?
And like, how's that influenced how you lead and how you live
your life? I was always an anxious kid, you
know, with women with ADHD, HD, it often is misdiagnosed as
anxiety. But I'm also really high
functioning and very smart. And what happened was then all

(54:41):
my best friends got diagnosed orobviously had ADHD and COVID hit
and all of my sort of coping andmanagement had to be completely
upended. And I had finally started going
to therapy regularly enough thatmy anxiety was coming down and
some of my symptoms were gettingworse.

(55:03):
And I realized like, oh, and then I saw, and then literally I
saw a meme that was like, hey, neurodivergent people tend to
travel and pack. So if all of your, like, if all
of your friends have been diagnosed with ADHD, guess what?
And and so I talked to my therapist about it and she was
like, Oh yeah, you should get tested.

(55:24):
And I was like, oh, and I will say like as a woman, I've had
difficulty. I've sort of paused my testing
and my formal diagnosis path as a high functioning, like as, as
a person who's really high functioning and very has
excellent coping mechanisms. I'm crazy organized and, and

(55:44):
what and, and so like I've had areally hard time getting people
to take it seriously. My sister-in-law has sort of a
traditional case of ADHD, very active difficulty sitting still,
you know, difficulty like sitting down to read things.
But like if you get good grades and are a girl, then they like
nobody believes you that you have ADHD.

(56:06):
And like, nobody, if you have a job like this that requires
piles of reading, nobody realizes that like, that could
be a thing that you are suffering from.
And, and, and even my close friends who were diagnosed, it
took them a while to sort of acknowledge that that could be
true for me because they were like, Oh, well, if you're, if
you have ADHD then like I don't,cuz you're so, cuz it's so,

(56:29):
you're so high. Like I could never do what you
do. I don't understand how you could
also have ADHD. Like it must be very different
from mine. And I said, like, do you ever
wonder why all my friends like, why though, I'm so good at
helping you? Like, don't you wonder why all
my friends have ADHD and why I'mso, so this friend that I was
with, like we had gone, we'd gone shopping to the mall

(56:50):
together a couple weeks before that.
And she's like, well, you're like, I'm always walking around
with like armfuls of stuff that I forgot because, like, because
I forgot to get a basket. And she's like, you always have
a basket. Like you always think of that.
And I said, yeah, it's because my anxiety is higher than my
ADHD. That's that's the problem,
right? So what happens is I walk into

(57:10):
the store and I have this like moment of being like, Oh my God,
if I don't go get a basket, thenI'm going to drop all my shit,
like, and then, and then it's going to be embarrassing.
So I go get a basket. And so that when you, when you
were walking around with your arm fulls of shit, I had also
picked up a basket for you, right?
That was the that was the thing.And so as it turns out, I just
have great coping mechanisms andI'm super organized.

(57:33):
And so I'm like, oh, I might have ADHD, which is very funny
because my business partner immediately was like, of course
you have a DHDI. Don't understand why anybody
doesn't believe you. I don't understand why anybody
would would argue with you on that topic.
Like he was like, you are an obvious case.
I don't understand how anyone would disagree with that fact.

(57:55):
And so like it's kind of funny that it's been a big thing and I
think it's just made me a littlebit more cognizant and a little
bit better at like managing whenpeople might be struggling and
seeing that in other people and just sort of getting better at
being a bit more flexible as a leader about what motivates
people and sort of seeing and, and accommodating.

(58:19):
I hate the word accommodating because it makes it sound like
there's like something that needs to be adjusted to make
people more whatever. And that's not what I'm trying
to say. I'm saying that like there are
great things that come with being neurodivergent and, and
there should be ways to sort of tap into that and, and that you
accept that what that means is just like you're not as good at

(58:40):
some other things, right? You know, you talked about being
less, you know, cruel to yourself and being more, but how
do you accommodate these pathways for yourself that are
maybe not necessarily like everybody else to living your
life? I'm a lawyer, so my immediate
response would go read books. There's like specific I do this
in all parts of my life, not just sort of with the ADHD, but

(59:00):
like there are specific suggestions for how you cope,
motivate yourself to do things differently.
And I've tried to kind of internalize those.
I keep sort of a motivation chart like on I have AI have
like a pinboard behind my laptop.
And so like I keep a chart therethat's like, if you are
struggling with motivation, which of these parts are you

(59:23):
struggling with? And then go do this right.
And so like I try to do, I try to, to sort of use those tips
and tricks to be more accommodating to, to be more to
just sort of follow things. I personally have found simply
understanding where my strugglesare coming from very helpful.
So like, instead of feeling like, oh, I'm just lazy, Oh, I

(59:46):
cannot be motivated enough. Oh, I can't, like it's not
enough of me to do the thing. I'm like, no, there's a
different factor here that is manageable that is causing
whatever the unwanted or unintentional behavior is.
You know, as it's becoming very much a part of the Zeke guy.
So let's say the the conversation around ADHD, you

(01:00:08):
know, you talking about it. I have friends who've been
diagnosed and the more I hear about, especially the high
functioning aspect, it resonateswith me.
I'm not self diagnosing, but themore I hear about it, I'm like,
this sounds familiar. These these coping mechanisms.
How? How?
Yeah, and like, I don't know, I found that I was sort of self

(01:00:28):
coping in a lot of ways that I didn't realize I was and there
were things that I was doing. The other thing is my siblings
partner was talking about that they didn't realize things that
they did weren't normal. And the more authentically and
the more genuine, like the more I surround myself with people
that I love and trust, right, The more I can be honest about

(01:00:50):
the things I do and then hear them say like that's not normal.
And so like, I don't have anything this bad, but my, my
siblings partner said that like they used to come home from like
a day at work and then literallyspend an hour sitting in the
dark disassociating. And it's like, yeah, that's not

(01:01:10):
like the average person doesn't spend a whole hour just sitting
in the dark staring at a wall, right?
That's not. And so like, if you're doing
that, it's because something hasdepleted in you, right?
That is unusual. And you just have to modify
either how that's depleting or how you cope with it to be a
little bit more, a little less like depressing.

(01:01:33):
And, and so that's that. I think to me that's a big thing
is like you just kind of have tolike realize it's like, oh, OK,
it's everything's fine. You just have to it.
I just have to make some adjustments.
There's no yeah, like, so I'll give an example because I think
this one's really important. You all.
I I read so many books because again, I love productivity and

(01:01:57):
efficiency. So I read so many books about
productivity and efficiency and all these things.
And, and there's so much advice that says like, it's like the
eat the frog advice where it says like, do the hardest thing
first, just get it out of the way and then your life is
easier. And I could never do it.
And I could not understand why. And I thought like, oh, I, I'm
not, I'm not trying hard enough.I'm not doing this thing.

(01:02:19):
I'm not whatever. No, as it turns out, if you have
ADHD, you're supposed to do the exact opposite is get is do
little tasks, little tasks to get your little dopamine hits
until you are like a rolling little ball.
And then it's like, yeah, sure. Like load me up with that 60
page, like MSA, I got this. And, and so just like that one

(01:02:41):
thing to be like, no, go look atyour checklist.
I, I keep a very organized To DoList.
Go look at your To Do List. Go like pick two things that you
can check off in the next 5 minutes and just go do them.
And then it's like, Oh yeah, OK,So that even just little things
like that where I've sort of flipped how I think about how I

(01:03:02):
motivate myself. Huge difference. 100% that's how
I operate. I'm the same where if I have a
list, it's the little things. Let me just cuz then those are
easy. Just scratch them off and then
move on and then you get in thatflow.
So once again, you know, maybe Ineed to do some looking into
this one cuz I'm very much. One of my cousins is a
psychiatrist and I called him about it just to get some advice

(01:03:25):
about how I should deal with diagnosis and stuff.
And and he just kind of said like, yeah, that's totally fine.
He he said, like to be fair, a lot of our society now sort of
has this top down thing where it's eroding our executive
function skills and like all these things.
So these kinds of tips help everybody.

(01:03:47):
But I would say again, it's a, it's a, you tend to travel in
packs of dysfunctional wolves. So if all your best friends have
a DHDI have news for you. I'm just saying.
Yeah, no, I hear it loud and clear.

(01:04:07):
Yeah, I definitely have to do some digging, but I'm just.
That's. Fine, so thankful that you took
time out of your busy schedule to do this with me.
Like this means so much. I know you're a busy human and
anytime anyone says yes to beingpart of my little project, it
just, it means the world to me. Honestly, you have no idea.

(01:04:28):
Oh, I, no, I, I thank you. But like, I really isn't about
it. I I'm really happy to be here.
This has been really great. And I find this like a really
great. I'm a very social creature and
for me, getting to spend time talking to people and getting to
know people and sort of like these kinds of conversations
really invigorate me. So thank you for letting me be

(01:04:48):
here. Good.
I'm glad I ask everyone of my guests this at the end.
Of each episode and you can takethis professionally, personally
however you want, but if you were to look at your life and
kind of do like a Google Earth view of it, what would you say
is the most on brand thing aboutyou?
I think it's probably my abilityto go from like 0 to. 60 in like

(01:05:11):
no time flat about things that I'm excited about.
I think like professionally, I worked very hard to become a
partner at a big fancy international law firm and then
having to sit my parents down less than a year after making
partner and say I'm leaving to start my own firm, which I know

(01:05:31):
I told you guys a decade ago I would never do, but guess what?
That's what we're doing. Like that was like, and, and,
and then like now I'm, I'm functionally A managing partner,
which is sort of a relatively high up position.
And so like going from sort of associate to my own little
managing partner in a year is probably the the most like I was

(01:05:53):
just like, Nope, that's what I'mdoing.
We're doing the thing. No more follow up questions,
just going to get it done. That is my most on brand, like
nature. Are you?
Have you ever done your human design chart?
No, I don't know what that is, KSo I don't know if you're.
Like into like all the. The Hulu stuff, but the way
you're describing it and even just us talking about our like

(01:06:17):
how we go about things are very similar.
Part of me thinks I'm like, I feel like you would be look into
it. OK, you can do that three and
I'll send you the link. And basically it it it's you
sound like a manifester. And So what that is, is
basically like how you operate, like your energy cycles, how you
work. So, but you know how you're
describing your like you get burst of energy and I did mine
and I reads like how you operatein like business and, and how

(01:06:40):
you operate as a human in your day-to-day and like you get
bursts of energy and then you need rest.
And so the way you're describinghow you work, I'm like, just
look into it. Just I'm curious to see what,
what would come up. And it goes based on like
specifics to you and your and your like date of birth and the
time that you're born. I I I'm interested to see what
interesting this is like more ofa corporate thing, but have you?

(01:07:01):
Done the like how to fascinate like your archetype thing?
No, So you should check it out. It's like a marketing.
Thing, it's kind of. Interesting.
Like I don't think it's all 100%anyway, but it is an interesting
kind of like it's an interestingperspective and it kind of has
like 7 seven personality traits versus 7 like 7 personality

(01:07:23):
trait things. They're not really anyway
whatever. And you sort of like smush them
together to like get the thing that you are.
And, and so I, I would be curious to hear what yours is,
because it's an interesting little, I found my little report
very helpful. I like check it sometimes,
particularly in how to communicate with people who have

(01:07:44):
very different strengths and communication styles and goals
that I do in relationships. So is that the one where it's
like red, green, yellow, blue? But it's like, yeah, it's, it's
really, yeah. It's like anyway.
It's interesting, it's fun. I made my business partner do it
and he was like completely at the other end of the little
chart and I was like, This is why we're really good business

(01:08:04):
partners 100% and we're so luckywe do not fight well that
you're, you're hitting two sidesof the coin, right?
But I. Told him early in this process
because like building a. Business plan is a lot of work,
but we were spending a lot of time together and.
And I said it was like my relationship with him feels a
lot like my relationship with mybest friend from law school,
where like, we'd always give, people would ask her and I

(01:08:27):
questions and we'd give the sameanswer and then people would ask
why and we'd have completely different reasons for why we
gave that answer. And that's still the case.
It's like I just like my reason for The thing is completely
different. But my answers always, like our
answers are basically always thesame.
So it's fun. I love that.

(01:08:48):
Yeah. So if anybody.
Who's listening wants to reach out to you or connect with you
online? Where can they find you?
Yeah, I'm relatively. Easy to find paulslaw.com but
yeah, I I like I'm I'm on Instagram I think is Ree Kramer
with maybe 1 east. Oh no, I'm on Instagram as

(01:09:08):
Marvel and mutts because for my dogs and because I like Marvel
movies and yeah, and, and yeah, no, I'm pretty easy to find.
It's amazing how easy it is to find somebody named Irina
Kramer. Like the specific spelling is
actually really like unique, I guess.
But yeah, most lawyers are relatively easy to to get a hold

(01:09:31):
of, including me. So and to anybody who would like
to contact me about any design. Inquiries, you can reach out to
methroughgeographic.com, follow the podcast on Spotify, Apple
podcast, leave a comment, rate, subscribe.
I'm on YouTube. I would love a review, a
comment. Irina, I want to thank you one
more time for taking the time tobe part of this project, part of

(01:09:51):
the podcast, and we'll talk soon.
Thank you so much. Bye.