March 5, 2024 • 65 mins
Ever pondered the intersection of technology and human creativity? Join me as I sit with Eve Psalti, a luminary from Microsoft Azure AI and ex-Google Cloud guru who passionately advocates for women's ascent in tech leadership. Our spirited exchange traverses the landscape of self-advocacy and confidence for women, distinguishing the finesse of networking for career upliftment from the simple joys of friendship-building. With Eve's remarkable insight drawn from her roles and serving on the WE Global Studios board, we carve a path through the entangled forest of gender equality and leadership in the tech wilderness.
The tapestry of Eve's journey is woven with threads from her Greek heritage, academic leaps across continents, and the bold embrace of new challenges that have shaped her illustrious career trajectory. Our conversation meanders through her cultural adaptations, the decisions that charted her course, and the influence of personal identity on professional success. We uncover the essence of navigating through the non-linear paths of growth and how embracing curiosity and ambition can lead to profound transformations in both business and life.
As we cast our gaze forward, we delve into the transformative potential of AI in revolutionizing industries like healthcare and education. We dissect how AI tools enhance efficiency yet underscore the importance of vigilant engagement with these tools to avoid biases and safeguard human ingenuity. Wrapping up, we glimpse the horizons of 2024, discussing the power of gratitude, the necessity of lifelong learning, and the riches of community involvement. Eve and I share insights on weathering the storms of failure, the virtues of a growth mindset, and the impactful role of mentorship. Each word in this episode is a stepping stone toward a future where AI and empowered leadership coalesce to shape an inspiring 2024.
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Episode Transcript
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Eve (00:00):
We have to break a couple of molds to make sure that we
bring women at the same level ofopportunities as other groups.
A lot of times I see women thatthey're not advocating for
themselves and I think probablywe demonstrated it even in the
call, where we wereself-doubting or we were double
guessing.
(00:20):
I think we have to feelcomfortable to communicate and
celebrate our skills, ourachievements.
I know it might feel like chestthumping, but I think it's
essential.
You have to communicate yourown words and you have to let
others know.
The other thing that I feellike we don't do a lot or we
(00:42):
don't do it in the right way isnetworking and relationship
building.
Networking is key, but I feellike a lot of times women
confuse networking for creatingfriendships and affiliations and
I think there is a bigdifference.
Networking is very crucial foradvancing your career, advancing
(01:04):
your personal brand.
It's almost like a full-timething that you need to be
committed and you need to have agoal.
Networking is not leading tofriendship, or it can, but
that's not the goal.
You should be very intentionalabout who you network, why you
network with them, where you'retrying to get out of it and
(01:25):
really lead the engagement andthe other thing that I'm guilty
myself to be honest isconfidence and assertiveness.
We need to make sure that weare asserting ourselves in a
certain way, and this meansusing a certain language.
Klara (01:42):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the
Grand Slam Journey podcast,where we discuss various topics
related to the Grand SlamJourney of our lives, finding
our passion and purpose,realizing our potential and
growing our skills andleadership, and whatever we
decide to put our minds into.
For my guest today, Eve Psalti, areas of business and
(02:05):
technology.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, please share with
someone who you believe mayenjoy it as well.
Consider leaving a review onApple Podcasts, Spotify or any
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If you are someone who enjoysfollowing video, feel free to
find this episode on YouTube.
(02:26):
At Grandslamjourney, this isyour Kl ara Jagosova.
Thank you for tuning in, andnow I bring you, Eve Psalti.
Hello, yves, happy Friday.
Welcome to the Grinslam Journeypodcast.
Hi, Klara, good to see youagain.
Thanks for having me.
Oh, thank you.
I'm so looking forward totalking to you about all things
(02:48):
related to your career,obviously AI, which you're on
the forefront of scaling andcreating with Microsoft and many
other partners, and many othertopics, obviously related to
women in tech.
I know it's a cause you're veryinterested in and you're
supporting, and so I'm curiouswhere this conversation takes us
(03:11):
, because I have many things Iwanted to ask you, but maybe
first I'll read a quick intro.
Ev e Psalti has has 20 yeartech and business leadership
experience, currently the seniordirector at Microsoft Azure AI
engineering organization,responsible for scaling and
commercializing artificialintelligence solutions.
(03:31):
You're previously the head ofstrategic platforms and Google
Cloud, where you and I have met,so I'm privileged through my
career, to have met leaders likeyou, where you worked with
Fortune 500 companies, helpingthem grow their businesses
through digital transformationinitiatives.
Prior to Google, you havehelped business development,
(03:55):
sales, and marketing leadershippositions at Microsoft and
startups across the US andEurope, leading over 200 people
teams and $600 millionbusinesses.
In native of Greece, which Ilove the country, I hope we're
going to dive into it a littlebit more too.
You hold a master's degree inseveral technology and business
(04:18):
certifications from LondonBusiness School and the
University of Washington.
You cruelly serve on the boardof we Global Studios, a full
stack startup innovation studiosupporting female entrepreneurs.
Please handing it over to you.
Anything you want to add?
I forgot.
Eve (04:38):
Well, thank you so much for the kind introduction.
It's almost embarrassing andyou know you're old when your
intro takes more than fourminutes.
No, I think you've covered.
That was a good summary of thekind of things that I've done.
To be honest, at heart Iconsider myself an immigrant who
is always curious, alwaysdriven.
I want to learn and do newthings and, yeah, I think my
(05:03):
searlessness and my ambitionprobably led me to do the things
that I've done and I keep doing.
Klara (05:11):
I love that addition and that's definitely a value I have
always seen in you since wehave met and obviously being
privileged to have met you whenwe were together when you were
at Google, I was at Ericsson andkind of seeing how you creating
your career and finding waysthat support your mission and
(05:31):
you really believe it becomes sointended.
But stretching yourself to whatis the next thing you're
curious and passionate about isdefinitely something that I am
looking up to and is like, oh,what would you do?
So I have many questionsrelated to your career journey,
but I typically want to start mypodcast understanding a little
(05:53):
bit about your abroad and, ifyou look back, greece is an
amazing country.
Obviously it's been the cradleof western civilization in many
ways, from philosophy toeducation to democracy.
So I'm actually curious how youare bringing.
(06:13):
Growing up in Greece shaped youand some of the values I know
you've always been passionateabout education and many of
these programs and how you foundpassion in business and
technology.
Eve (06:25):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Definitely because I spent thefirst 22 years of my life in
Greece.
It definitely shaped me in aspecific way and I think a
couple of characteristics isthat my mother was an educator,
so we grew up appreciating howeducation gives you
(06:47):
opportunities, how it opensdoors and it shapes you as an
individual.
That definitely connected a lotof dots for me down the line.
Also, I think coming from asmall country, from a smaller
economy, makes you a little bitmore scrappy.
You find kind of like trying tocreate opportunities for
(07:08):
yourself in an environment whereresources and opportunities are
scarce.
So I think these are the twoelements that I can point from
my childhood.
That kind of like created a lotof the right conditions for
what I did down the line.
Klara (07:25):
Anything specific about technology, because you've
always kept in the center how touse technology for, obviously,
business, innovation andadvancing the human cause in
education or other areas.
Eve (07:39):
Yeah, I mean that's a good point, because back then
technology looked much moredifferent than it is now and I
was always very curious.
I think that was kind of likethe element there.
So I was experimenting with newtools, new gadgets, things that
are in the market.
(07:59):
I went to school and startedprogramming with languages that
no longer really exist, althoughone, cobalt, is still in wide
use.
So I always, kind of like, wasinterested not only in the
novelty that technology brings,but also in the efficiency that
(08:21):
it brings.
And also, you know, when youstudy software and engineering,
you kind of figure out a way ofthinking that helps you make
decisions and structure thingsin other areas too.
Klara (08:35):
Was that common in Greece to be part of this technology
interest, or anybody whoinfluenced you towards it?
How did you uncover thatpassion early on?
Eve (08:45):
I think I was just curious myself.
Like I come from a householdyou know nobody had any
background in technology.
My father was a medical doctor,my mother was an educator.
I think both my brother and Ikind of like, grew up being very
curious and trying toexperiment with different things
and although it was a veryconservative environment, it was
(09:09):
also encouraged.
So yeah, I can't pinpoint aparticular individual or a
particular kind of likesituation outside of the fact
that you know we grew up in ahousehold where we were
encouraged to experiment and trynew things.
Klara (09:25):
So I guess, on the note of experimenting, trying new
things and following yourcuriosity, I'm actually curious
how did you get from Greece topursue education?
Eve (09:37):
in the US, I think how it came about.
I mean, I always wanted tostudy business and technology
but the options back then inGreece were quite limited, so I
started taking advantage.
Actually, before I came to theUS I took advantage of a program
(09:57):
that was sponsored by theEuropean Union which was
targeted for young workers.
So I did a year in theNetherlands which opened a lot
of options for me.
It was great to kind of likelive Greece and see how you can
(10:17):
live and be independent and, youknow, try things in a different
country.
That was kind of culturallydiametrically different than
Greece, and also it provided anoption for me to continue on
that journey.
That was not really clearbefore.
So after coming back from theNetherlands, I had the bug.
(10:41):
So I had to kind of like figureout what the next thing was.
So I started researchingdifferent universities in the US
where I could study businesstechnology also in kind of like,
you know, in a cost effectiveway.
So I changed a couple ofuniversities actually and
(11:04):
because I was taking advantageof the different scholarships
and that's kind of like how, Iended up in North Carolina.
I started in the University ofCharlotte in North Carolina, so
UNCC, and then I graduated fromQuinn College and, yeah, I mean
it was a great experience.
Again, living from Greece to goto the Netherlands was like a
(11:27):
huge kind of like culture shock.
And then going from theNetherlands to North Carolina,
which is not the most kind oflike progressive part of the
country, necessarily, was also acultural shock.
But again, I think it kind of,like you know, it provided me
the ability to get a collegeeducation, which I always wanted
, and also the ability to travel, to live abroad, to experience
(11:49):
new cultures and new ways ofliving and also challenge myself
.
It wasn't easy to, you know,start brand new in an
environment that was notnecessarily familiar.
And also, you know, I wastrying to, like you know, I was
doing two different jobs.
I was going to school more thanfull time.
I think I graduated in two anda half years with a great point
(12:12):
average of like 3.9 something.
So I was like really in aalmost in a hurry to kind of,
like you know, get this throughand go to the next step.
Klara (12:24):
I'm curious how was your English?
Just now you mentioned youstarted in North Carolina, which
I landed in Texas.
I thought I knew English when Icame to US and I didn't at all.
I felt like I was asking excuseme after every other or second
word, because actually in Europewe also use the British English
and actually studying inEnglish and traveling for tennis
(12:47):
tournaments and just doing theregular business as far as where
can I live and how do you findsome food and tennis courts is
very different.
So I'm curious how your journeywas and even acclimatizing to
the language overall.
Eve (13:01):
Yeah, the good thing, coming from a country that
nobody else speaks the language,is that you get to speak other
languages pretty fast.
So, because nobody speaks Greekand also Greek, greece was
always, like you know, a countrythat lived primarily on tourism
.
We were exposed to Englishspeaking.
(13:22):
You know groups, individuals,probably all of our lives.
So even if you go to Greece now, like you know, you will see
that there is a huge percentageof the pop population that is
very fluent in English or atleast one other language.
So English was never really anissue.
Yes, the accent was alwaysinteresting and, to be honest,
(13:47):
it made me question myself, likeyou know, am I the one or not
using the language right?
Because in the everydayinteractions, as you mentioned,
like you know, people make yourepeat things and says oh, you
know, I didn't catch that.
So it makes you a little bitself conscious, but it opens
another door.
I think it's an opportunity to,kind of like, learn something
new and add a feather to yourcup.
Klara (14:07):
And I think that's also that you mentioned you
transferred a few universitiesto kind of take advantage of the
scholarships, which I thinkit's so courageous.
Just also looking at my ownjourney, I've had several
opportunities to transfer duringmy college years in Texas and I
have to say I never took theopportunity for several reasons,
(14:31):
including one.
I think there was a little bitof fear for me starting over
because it takes so much to getused to the environment.
You're in at least even thefirst year, and you just find
some friends and so you actuallytake in the step and say you
know what, I just need totransfer, and you do continue.
I think that alone speaksvolume about your courage and
(14:56):
just ability to try new things.
Were you second guessing atthat point?
Or where is the mindset?
How were you adjusting todifferent environments?
Eve (15:05):
To be honest, I was never really proud of this choice.
I was more pragmatic thananything else.
I don't recommend it.
I don't think there is a rightor wrong way to do this.
I think it's a personal choice.
I just didn't want to end upwith, like you know, a huge
student loan.
(15:25):
I saw a lot of my peersaccumulating.
So I was trying to be pragmaticand of, like you know, finish
college and not end up with ahuge loan.
So I didn't really evenconsider the cost of starting
over or friendships and all ofthat.
I think it was more driven bygraduating rather than creating
(15:49):
a more relaxed environment forme leaving the college life.
But again, if I were to do itall over again, I don't know if
I would do it the exact same way.
And also it's a personal choice.
I think going to college andexperiencing college life I
think it's a great thing youonly get to experience once.
So again, I don't think thereis a right or wrong way to do
(16:11):
this.
Klara (16:12):
You mentioned.
You don't know if you would doit the same way.
I'm curious if you would backat it, anything you would change
or something that really stoodout to you.
You think, if I just did thisone thing differently, this is
what.
Eve (16:25):
I would do.
Now I don't know.
I don't like to second guessmyself and I kind of own every
decision that I made, whether itwas a good one or a bad one,
because at that point of time,given all the things that I knew
and all the things that werehappening at the same time, I
took the best decision that Ithought it was appropriate.
(16:46):
So if I had to do it all overagain, then it means that all
the other conditions would bedifferent and probably the
decision would be influenced aswell.
Klara (16:58):
Yeah, I love that thinking because I've gone back
and forth.
I have to say in my life Iwould change one thing still
looking bad, but I do know if Iwould change it it would trigger
a whole change of reaction andI don't ever know if I would end
up in a better or worse or thesame situation.
I would have to say which onewould you change?
I would have definitelytransferred.
(17:18):
So after my freshman year I hadseveral opportunities from
universities, including gettersof Pepperdine, ucla, baylor, usf
, so I had a few opportunitiesthat were kind of offering me to
take on scholarship and competein some ways in tennis on a
better level.
Oh wow.
And actually the reason why Ididn't take it was related to
(17:41):
kind of starting over, but alsoI think I was second guessing
whether I actually belong to insome ways, to the higher level
of group or people that Ithought were better off.
And so what I have learned, andI know implement, is that you
always have to make decisionsbased on the opportunity, never
(18:03):
make a based on fear.
If you make a decisions basedon fear, it's kind of the wrong
way to make decisions.
And so every decision eversince, including career decision
, I tried to look at what's theopportunity, and if I'm not
scared enough about the job orthe opportunity, then I feel
like it's not big enoughobstacle for me to move into.
(18:23):
So the more terrified you areabout your future progressions,
I think, the better off you are.
It means you're moving to theright direction, at least for me
personally, I love that.
Eve (18:33):
Yes, it's a very tough decision to make, but I think
it's always yield great resultsof personal growth and I kind of
like the fact that you'resaying that oh, you know, I was
second guessing myself, becauseI think we all did.
I find that women second guessthemselves more often and more
(18:59):
intensely than men or othergroups.
I think we are conditioned tobe more perfect, we're
conditioned to follow a certainpath and we're conditioned to
only speak or make decisions orhave opinions after doing
(19:21):
extensive research, after beingkind of like 150% sure of what
we're saying or what we're doing.
And it's unfair, it's unfair onus and I think it creates more
angst than opportunity for us.
I agree.
Klara (19:40):
I have definitely sensed as well the perfectionism,
including with just my podcast.
When I started podcasting first, it was the worst thing was to
get to listen to my own voice,and so you have to overcome that
in your own head.
And actually now my nextchapter is now moving to video
podcast, which I love.
I finally overcame my fear andI love that this conversation
(20:03):
will be streamed on YouTube andanyone can follow it video too.
But took me probably a year towork through my own fear of like
, oh my gosh, what will myfacial expressions be?
It's never the guest, it'susually just related to my own
self and how I view myself.
Eve (20:19):
But I love everything you shared and I resonate with it
personally, it's true, I stilldon't like the sound of my own
voice.
I'm trying to come to termswith my never changing accent,
because I've been in the countrysince 95 and the accent is
prominent.
Is there, like you know?
Is it annoying me?
(20:40):
No, do I think about it?
Klara (20:42):
Yes, Am I proud of it?
No, I resonate with you too.
I feel like I'm right in thesort of position where my
English will never be perfectand I'm forgetting slightly my
check.
I mean, I'm good withconversing with my mom and my
sister, but obviously businesscheck doesn't exist, so it's
actually interesting.
I feel like I'm kind of inbetween and belong nowhere, but
(21:06):
I love your accent.
Just to comment, I think it'salways just related to how we
view ourselves versus how welook at others.
Eve (21:13):
You're absolutely right.
I feel exactly the same way.
I think we know we have likeparallel paths in some ways,
because I feel like I'mconsidered a foreigner in a
country that I lived most of mylife In the US, and also a
foreigner when I go back home inGreece, given that, you know, I
(21:34):
haven't lived there since 95.
So it's kind of like a veryinteresting kind of way to be in
this type of limbo where youhave affinity to two different
countries, two differentcultures, but you don't 100%
belong to one.
Klara (21:52):
It also really makes you think about maybe the uniqueness
and in many ways I'm gonna usethe word not fitting in, because
you're kind of in your ownbubble.
How do you think about that if,as you reflect on your past, or
even now, as you're shapingyour career in technology and
(22:15):
especially area of thegenerative AI, or do you
consider that or think about?
Eve (22:19):
it at all.
I'm trying to challenge myselfto kind of like be comfortable
in both worlds.
I mean, obviously, my life andmy job and most of my
interactions are in the US, butI in the past, kind of like you
know, several years I tried toreconnect with you know work
that is being done in Greece.
(22:40):
I feel like I'm interested inconnecting back to a lot of
organizations, a lot of groupsthat are really investing in the
country.
They're investing in the futureof the country, whether it's
independent groups, governmentalgroups, technology associations
.
So this is kind of like aninterest for me and that's kind
(23:01):
of like a way to reconnect witha part of myself, of my personal
and also professional life.
I didn't pay as much attentionin the past 20 years.
Klara (23:12):
I actually had that thought when you were posting at
your future conferences.
I believe there's a conferencein Athens that you're going to
attend and talk about this newtechnology that you're driving
(23:33):
globally with the biggestcompany in the world, microsoft
over, took out of easily.
Ai is the trend and everybodysays it is because of the future
that you're building with allof the technology that it's
unlocking next level ofproductivity, effectiveness,
creativity I'm going to pausethere because you're the expert
(23:53):
on it, but we're going to diveinto next.
But how does it feel to go back?
Eve (23:57):
It's always great and it's amazing to see the new
generation really changing thecountry right.
And what I see, which is like afascinating and I'm really
really glad that this ishappening, is when I left the
country, it was a little bitfrowned upon to kind of leave
right for many reasons, and nowI see individuals kind of like
(24:24):
newer gen generations thateither finishing school and
college in Greece or they'regoing abroad and then coming
back.
So I feel like there's not likethe brain drain that we saw 20
years ago, but now people arecoming back for whatever reason,
right, but they realize thatGreece is kind of like, you know
(24:46):
, is a great place to live.
It's a great place to behealthy and active, you know,
many days of sunshine, beautifuland environment, so it's not
like a bad place to live, butit's also becoming, you know, I
think there are changes in thebusiness side.
(25:07):
That and conditions thatattract these individuals to
come back and start their ownbusinesses in Greece, whether
they are, you know, business inthe cities or even in the
countryside, and it's reallyencouraging.
I hope that the governmentcontinues to support them,
(25:29):
because a lot of timesbureaucracy can get in the way
of doing things right and fastand, you know, and enabling
people to like realize theirdream.
But more and more I see thistrend, which is really
encouraging, and that's why I'maffiliated with a couple of
groups that support this,because eventually this will
(25:50):
help the country grow In theright direction.
And, you know, it's great tosee the Gen Z is returning and
not doing what I'm doing.
Klara (26:07):
Yeah, it's nice that some people actually go back.
I always say if more peoplewere like me, check tradition
would die, because I'm justreally bad and keep that with
any check tradition.
So it's nice and that somepeople still go back or stay in
the country and continue To havethis uniqueness, which I love,
when I travel around the worldto experience the unique
(26:28):
cultures and how people dothings.
Maybe, on that note oftechnology, let's dive a little
bit deeper into what you do now.
I've been very passionaterecently about the large
language models, so thegenerative AI trend.
I've been trying to follow whatyou write on LinkedIn and I
(26:50):
know there's much happening whenit comes to what this could do
for us as a humanity, as well astechnology advancements, and
maybe even in relation to Greeceand the next level of what
Greece economy can achieve.
What are you most optimisticabout and what would you maybe
even everybody to know about it.
Eve (27:10):
Yeah, that's a great question and a big, big topic.
Generative AI really explodedin the past couple of years,
right, and this large languagemodels kind of like you know the
notion that you can interactwith an AI system and get a lot
of accurate results back.
It really changed the way thatwe work, that we think, that we
(27:33):
go to school, that we look forinformation.
Of course, there are severalchallenges that we're gonna talk
about, but what I'm mostoptimistic about is like that I
see how this technology isreally improving the way that we
(27:53):
do a lot of things like.
Let's take in that, for example, healthcare.
These AI models are so accurateand so advanced that they can
help improve diagnostics.
It can help with pro providingyou know, personalized medicine.
It can help with providingpersonalized treatment outcomes.
(28:15):
The fact that this machinelearning models can analyze vast
amount of medical informationcan lead to more accurate diet
diagnosis, right, so this islike this is huge.
Then we have in mostly kind oflike the business side.
It can increase the efficiencyof the individual.
(28:36):
So I always see AI as a tool, asa copilot, as we said Microsoft
rather than the end of all.
It might not be a hundredpercent right, but is it a tool
that will save you time?
It will help you automateroutine tasks, it can help you
streamline processes and it willEnhance your personal
efficiency.
Absolutely, and in the largerscheme, if you're a corporation,
(29:00):
it can save money, it canincrease the productivity of
your groups and it can help yoube more competitive in the
marketplace, right?
Also, in areas where we don'tsee, where it's not really that
evident, is education, which hasalways been a very traditional
sector and a little bit, youknow, fearful of new pack.
(29:21):
We see that education is beingtransformed through AI because
it can help with personalizedlearning.
It can really free up theeducator to spend more time in
the classroom with the studentsadapting to their own personal
needs rather than doing kind oflike repetitive tasks.
(29:44):
So there are a lot ofefficiencies that, again, if we
use it and we understand it as atool, it can help with our
everyday tasks and it will helpus free up time to do the more
important things that we humansare great at.
Klara (29:59):
Yeah, I love that.
Just to touch on maybe all ofthe industries or examples
you've shared.
Definitely healthcare I've beenpart of Apple Health and not to
share anything proprietary.
But one thing this has come inknowledge that everybody can
look at just third party dataand research.
There's a huge decline innurses, obviously because of the
(30:25):
shortage and the one out thatwent through COVID, as was
doctors.
There's more and more peopleaging, I believe by 2050.
The amount of population ofpeople who are age 65 and above
will more than double.
And then you have also thisknowledge gap, as was the health
system gap, of who will takecare of this aging population
(30:48):
and how best to take care ofthem.
And so doctors are forced moreand more to be more effective
and more efficient and theydon't have actually even the
time needed to often dedicatethe time that the people would
want to have spent with thedoctor because they're also
pressured for this efficiency.
I believe many listeners havefriends who are doctors.
(31:08):
I hear from my friends who aredoctors that they're so being
driven to this oh, you only havelike 30 minutes with this
person and that's all you canspend, and so if you have that,
how can I use these tools toactually be more accurate and
helps support them.
So I 100% agree and I loveactually seeing that the
healthcare is adopting thistechnology so early on, because
(31:31):
I find they're typically one ofthe more hesitant industries,
which kind of makes sensebecause they're dealing with
health data, but I do loveseeing this trend.
On efficiency, I love actuallyusing many AI tools for my
podcast.
So, from a process perspectiveincluding some titles,
suggestions and summarydescriptions I've actually found
(31:51):
it a huge improvement inaddition to my process.
But actually diving into theeducation, I love what you
mentioned because, especially atthe beginning, I have read a
lot of things about obviously,teachers and professors being
worried that students will usethis for, like cheating and
essay generation, so nobody willwrite anymore essays, and it
(32:13):
seems like you're actuallyseeing different trend and
you've been passionate abouteducation for many, many years.
It's been an area that you havebeen focusing on professionally
.
Share a little bit more aboutthat and how you see the
difference of the fear that I'vebeen reading about and maybe
it's in the market versus whatyou see as the reality of people
actually using this in aproductive way.
Eve (32:35):
Yeah, I mean as I said, like education, has been a very
traditional sector by design,but we see a wide adoption both
in the K through 12 and in thehigher ed area.
Educators, like the healthcareprofessionals is in high risk
(32:55):
right, especially in the US.
They're not very wellcompensated for the work that
they do.
They're very thinly spread,they work with classrooms or
like 40, 45 kids.
And it's very difficult toprovide that personalized
learning experience that everystudent needs.
So, if you have an AI co-pilotto help you grade like all the
(33:21):
different tests that you needand you can free up time to
spend more one-to-one time inthe classroom with your students
, this is great right.
If you can use AI to generateor to get some ideas, like a
brainstorm, around how to builda lesson plan, that's great
(33:42):
right.
You can still create the lessonplan with your trademark on it,
but you don't have to startfrom zero, right.
I think we need to find kind oflike the efficiencies and the
processes.
Now, on the other side, I hearwhat you're saying will a
student go to chat GPT andgenerate an essay and then
submit it and all of that?
The reality is that, yes, theycan do it, but also, as an
(34:06):
educator, you can catch this.
There is software and there are,I think, a couple of
applications that you can use Idon't remember the names, but to
figure out plagiarism, so it'seasy to detect.
And also you can kind of likesee it from the language,
because, yes, these lamps cangenerate text in a very
(34:29):
human-like way.
But A you have to be careful ofthe timestamp, because a lot of
these models their trainingstopped like six months or eight
months or 12 months before.
So if you're writing an essayabout kind of like current
events, it won't really help youand you have to do the research
(34:51):
yourself.
And also there are a lot oftools that can help the
educators catch, you know, thistype of plagiarism.
Again, I think you have to useit as a tool.
It's not gonna replace the workthat you do.
I think there is a lot of fearlike oh you know, is AI
replacing the educator?
No, because what you'reteaching your students is around
(35:12):
this 21st century learningskills, right, which is
creativity, decision-making,critical thinking.
Ai cannot do this.
Klara (35:22):
I do love the example you give, especially about grading.
That's something I haven'tconsidered, but I have read many
studies around, sometimes thebias around grading and the way
our minds work, and I believeeven famous Daniel Kahneman
writes about it in his bookmaybe I've read it in one of his
(35:42):
article or his bookspecifically because if people
grade the way our minds work,you always are biased, based on
the latest report you have read,especially in essay-like
answers, and so I actuallywonder if this accurately
constructed LLM could actuallybe more accurate and less biased
(36:05):
when it comes to grading toactually provide more proper way
of grade papers.
Eve (36:11):
So I love that example, just something that came into
mind, yeah but I mean, youtouched on a good point around
bias and I think there isinherent bias in humans and also
in AI models as well, andthat's one of the concerns that
I think everyone who isdeveloping or using this AI
(36:31):
models is concerned about,because these AI systems can
inherit bias that is present inthe data that is being used to
train them, so it leads, or itcan lead, to bias, prediction,
bias, decision making.
(36:52):
So that's why it's veryimportant A as a user, to
educate yourself how the modelthat you're using, how it has
been trained, and also be verycritical and test the outcomes
and the results that it yields.
(37:13):
If you are creating the models,I think it's important to make
sure that there is kind of likea governance process to
establish explainability,transparency around what type of
data is being used for training, what is the decision making
(37:36):
process, and have this kind oflike what we call responsible AI
guidelines and frameworks forhow we develop and how we deploy
this tools.
Klara (37:48):
I love that you mentioned it.
It's something I've beenpondering for quite a while.
Maybe, just to give example, Ithink everybody has been using
some sort of this smartassistant.
I always felt especially at thebeginning when I used Alexa and
there's been some of thesearticles that people said I had
to like lower my voice, hey,alexa.
And when I talked to Alexa inthe lower voice, that was more
(38:12):
of like where typically men arepositioned.
It actually heard me betterthan in my high level women
pitch and obviously it's nottrained for understanding Czech
English, but that's one examplethat comes to mind, but you can
translate it to really anythingelse, because these models
really use data that need to belabeled by someone.
(38:32):
I guess now we can use perhapsautomated process for even the
data labeling, which canaccelerate some of the LLM
development.
But that's what I've beenhearing is the importance of
diversity, and I again one lovethat we have a leader like you
pioneering this trend and weneed more women in this
(38:53):
generative AI because it's goingto drive sort of the
advancements of many differentindustries, and so if we don't
have kind of the right diversityset, who is looking at how to
create this right models andlabeling the data, that could
further create a bigger gendergap in many different industries
, but also bias towards likespecific angle based on who's
(39:14):
creating it.
You have mentioned some ofthese things that people may
want to adopt, to eliminate it.
Anything else that's top ofmind.
For I guess, if you think aboutthis technology and even your
passion of creating moreequality for women in leadership
positions, what are you mostconcerned about, if anything, or
(39:35):
what's top of your mind?
Eve (39:36):
Yeah, I mean definitely.
To close the previous topic,you're absolutely right.
Having diversity in the groupsthat develop, review and deploy
this model is absolutely key,not only for gender balance, but
for full representation acrossall different teams and types of
(39:56):
individuals and groups, whetherthey're represented or not,
especially for women, sincewe're going towards the March 8
timeframe where they give us aday, so that's good.
I'm a big advocate aboutcreating kind of equity for
(40:17):
women, especially women inbusiness, women in STEM, women
in leadership roles.
We are again going back to whatwe said in the beginning.
We are conditioned to behave ina different way and I think we
have to break a couple of moldsto make sure that we bring women
at the same level ofopportunities as other groups.
(40:39):
A lot of times I see women thatthey're not advocating for
themselves and I think probablywe demonstrated it even in the
call, where we wereself-doubting or we were double
guessing.
I think we have to feelcomfortable to communicate and
celebrate our skills, ourachievements and our
(41:02):
attributions.
I know it might feel like chestthumping, but I think it's
essential.
You have to communicate yourown words and you have to let
others know, because you lead byexample and also it's good to
celebrate its success.
The other thing that I feellike we don't do a lot or we
(41:22):
don't do it in the right way isnetworking and relationship
building.
Networking is key, but I feellike a lot of times women
confuse networking for creatingfriendships and affiliations.
I think there is a bigdifference.
Networking is very crucial foradvancing your career, advancing
(41:46):
your personal brand.
It's almost like a full-timething that you need to be
committed and you need to have agoal.
Networking is not leading tofriendship, or it can, but
that's not the goal.
You should be very intentionalabout who you network, why you
network with them, where you'retrying to get out of it and
(42:09):
really lead the engagement,whether it's like a mentorship
thing or you want to use that tojoin a professional association
or whatever the goal is.
So I think networking is thesecond thing that I feel, like
women, we need to pay attentionand we need to get a little bit
better on.
(42:29):
And the other thing that I'mguilty myself, to be honest, is
confidence and assertiveness.
We need to make sure that weare asserting ourselves in a
certain way, and this meansusing a certain language, using
certain verbs to make sure thatwe're expressing our ideas in a
(42:57):
strong way we're advocating forourselves, because that's how
you bring equity across all thedifferent groups.
The controversial thing is aboutbuilding a personal brand.
I know this is kind of like avery controversial term, because
really is a personal brand.
Does it make sense to create apersonal brand?
(43:19):
I'm a strong proponent of it.
This might be a controversialstatement for many, but a
well-defined brand can reallycontribute to visibility, to
opportunities.
You have to curate your ownkind of persona, not really go
(43:40):
outside of who you are.
You have to maintain the DNA ofwho you are what makes you tick
, what makes you interesting,what makes you comfortable.
But being very intentionalabout this curated view will
open a lot of doors.
I highly recommend it.
Klara (43:56):
Yes, I love all the tips you've given, eve, and I could
name every single one in thepast, including probably present
, that I can still do better andcontinue to practice.
Just to add totally agree onthe expression and what you
mentioned, even the confidenceand assertiveness One of the
things actually when I starteddoing my podcast and I'm
(44:18):
interviewing, obviously, men andwomen is actually interesting
when I have noticed some of thedifferences in tone and how men
versus women express discomfortwith some questions.
We typically tend to kind ofmake it like a laugh but we make
our voice a bit softer than mentypically do.
(44:41):
Obviously, I curse, serve theboard that I don't have
statistics other than that 68episodes I have released, but in
the context of those, it's beeninteresting of even just my
understanding of the tone we useand how we communicate.
Eve (44:59):
Obviously, networking 100% agree, words matter, yeah
absolutely Sorry, I didn't meanto interrupt, just to add to
this point.
Words really matter and I findthat women use kind of like
these things.
So let me add my two cents,meaning, like you know, my
opinion is not really supercritical, but I'm going to add
(45:19):
on.
No, you're offering a point ofview, it's not two cents, it can
be $100, or they might say, inmy opinion, well, of course, but
I mean don't caveat it Right.
I mean just be very assertiveand use very strong words, use
our statements, which I thinkwill position you in that power
(45:39):
role within the room.
Klara (45:42):
Yes, and having fantastic female leaders as examples
actually do help.
One of the things I do want tomention being an apple, I have
seen way more female leadersthan perhaps at Ericsson, which
has been fantastic and learningfrom them and seeing women
stepping up and leading with theassertiveness and speaking the
(46:03):
mind At least for me it's beenjust so refreshing and so great
to see.
I was like, oh my God, there'sthis woman that's not putting
herself down, but she isconfident and she knows how to
communicate with confidenceabout that specific topic and
she's not afraid to step up andsay no and have a different
(46:23):
opinion, without some of thesekind of words of making herself
look smaller or her opinionlooks smaller.
And you're obviously one ofthose, eva, as well, that I look
up to you and so it's beenreally fantastic to know leader
like you.
I want to dive in into your owncareer as well and just to
(46:44):
reflect anybody who's thinkingoh my God, eva's great Looks at
your LinkedIn.
I would love to have a career,perhaps like Eve and you know
there's, I believe, no linearprogression to a goal but,
reflecting back on many of theroles you have had, I'm actually
even curious what are some ofthe most fun roles and what made
(47:06):
them fun for you.
Eve (47:06):
You've done so many different things.
I think the roles that wereinteresting were a couple of the
product management roles,because I think when you're in a
product management kind of likeenvironment, you have this
duality.
So you care about the product,the technology, creating
(47:29):
something from scratch, but alsoyou care about the user, the
customer, the person on theother side who will really
experience the service, theproduct, the tool.
And I think, having thisduality and going back and forth
, kind of like how do we buildit in the most efficient way?
But also is it the right thingthat we're?
(47:52):
How do we make it easy toconsume, to experience, how do
we delight the user?
But also are we stringliningthe software development part of
it?
So you have to constantly goback and forth, which can be
exhausting, but I find it reallya rewarding way to kind of like
you know, look at both sides ofthe coin and create something.
(48:14):
So it kind of like combines thecreativity and the, you know,
creating something from nothingbut also creating something that
people will want to use andgravitate and even love.
Klara (48:27):
I love that and I think just you mentioning that example
brings me also almost back toyour upbringing and what you had
mentioned, your journey andthat curiosity and creativity of
trying to find your way throughand really following what you
believe was interesting to youand learning from that.
So I can see that connection ofwhat you mentioned even early
(48:49):
on.
Maybe just for everybody, Iwant to quickly summarize you.
You started your career inMicrosoft early on, where you've
been building skills andexperience to hold high profile
roles, including global directorof the public sector, where you
had education programs in 119countries reaching more than 220
(49:10):
million students and 12 millioneducators.
At Google Cloud, you were thehead of strategic platforms,
helping to transform industrieswith Google Clouds, technology
and innovation.
Now, as we mentioned, back atMicrosoft, I'm reaching the next
level of creativity andproductivity for enterprise with
Azure Cloud and the AI platform.
(49:32):
You've shared some tips abouteven women, what we should be
doing better, but I'm curious ifyou look back on your what
sounds impressive career, I amsure there's no career like
yours without some setbacks orhard learnings as well.
So if you had to reflect onthat, what were perhaps some of
(49:55):
the learnings that didn't cometo you.
Naturally, you had to learn thehard way and you would think,
oh, I think this is somethingthat people should keep top of
mind to maybe don't go throughsome of the hard times that I
had gone through.
Eve (50:10):
I would say that earlier in my career I was very hard on
myself when I would fail orsomething.
So I was not really embracingfailure as a learning
opportunity.
I was embracing, as you know,I'm not good enough, I'm not
(50:30):
doing it right, I will never doit right.
So I was very hard on myself.
Being kind to yourself andreally seeing a failure as a way
to learn, as a way to makeadjustments, to understand what
went wrong and really use thisas an experience to improve, is
something that I'm kind of likegetting better and I think I'm
(50:51):
at a point now where it's kindof like water off my back, but
earlier on it really took a hardtoll on me.
Another thing is prioritizingwork-life balance.
I know it sounds very cliche,but for someone who is very
ambitious, who is very driven,who is very energetic, it's very
easy to commit to your work andnot have kind of like a more
(51:17):
balanced approach.
There were times that I was,you know, burning out and this
was really impacting myproductivity.
I was not happy doing what I'mdoing.
I wasn't good at settingboundaries and because, again, I
was very ambitious, I thoughtlike, oh, if I would do this
extra thing, I would like reallygrow in my career, and that's
(51:41):
not the case.
You don't have to kill yourselfto grow your career.
You don't have to work overtime, you don't have to dial in at
five o'clock in the morning and,like you know, 9pm at night.
I had to find this the hard way.
It was very, very hard at times, like my 30s and my 40s.
(52:03):
The other thing is, I would say,what I'm getting better now and
what I wish I was much betterearlier on is really cultivating
that growth mindset.
That was the one that kind ofbrought it as a concept to
Microsoft and it wasgroundbreaking and all of that.
But I mean, the more I thinkabout it, really adopting a
(52:24):
growth mindset where you see achallenge not as something that
is stopping you or aggravatingyou or it's the end of all, but
as an opportunity to learn andimprove and also kind of like
how to be resilient, are reallykind of like things that I had
to learn the hard way.
I was really focusing on thesetbacks and I was seeing them
(52:50):
as my path to failure ratherthan a stepping stone to growth
and success.
And, you know, overallhappiness.
And then the last thing, which,again you know, I think it
serves us well, both in ourpersonal and our business life,
is be clear and communicateclearly what you want.
(53:14):
Be not only articulate in howyou present your ideas and you
know, how you listen activelyand all of that but really be
very concrete in how you want tocommunicate your ideas and how
to present yourself andconviction, because that's a
(53:35):
great trait of a good leader.
A good leader doesn't have tosay a lot of things.
You have to say the rightthings at the right time, with
the right empathy, with a veryactive listening, and these are
things that you know can carryyou in many, many situations
inside and outside of work.
Klara (53:55):
It's been fantastic hearing your tips and your
personal experiences, obviouslyabout career and what we women
could be doing more of toachieve our next curve, whatever
that means for each of us.
I have a few more questionsthat I wanted to ask, obviously
even in relation to your job.
(54:15):
Now, since you're creating thefuture of creativity and
productivity for enterpriseswith the AI platform, what are
you personally most optimisticabout when it comes to this
technology?
Eve (54:28):
We're really at a point where AI models are becoming
very accurate, they're becomingvery powerful and I think they
provide a great tool for us todo our work much easier in a
more efficient way.
So, again, as I said, we haveto really pay attention to not
(54:51):
take everything for granted orjust challenge the outcomes.
I think exercise criticalthinking to make sure that the
systems are not hallucinating orthey're not providing the wrong
information.
But AI, I see it as ahorizontal, as kind of like a
(55:11):
key ingredient of our everydaylife, or getting stuff done
easier and better and freeing uptime for us to do things that
are more important, moreinteresting.
A lot of people talk about jobdisplacement, for example, and
the reality is that, yes, if youare doing a repetitive job, yes
(55:36):
, your role might be at risk,but I think this opens up a lot
of opportunities for new rolesthat will be able to use AI in
order to do certain tasks.
So what I would like to get outof that is to make sure that all
(55:58):
of us get familiar with theadvancements that are happening
in the generative AI space,because in many cases, we'll
need to have that training.
We need to have this additionalawareness and these additional
skills that will help us get abetter role, a more fruitful
(56:22):
career, even if you're not asoftware engineer.
Right, you don't have to be adeveloper in order to be in AI.
If anything, I think we seethings with prompt engineering.
We see kind of like the poolopening and we're democratizing
all the various groups that cancode, especially now with new
(56:47):
models that are using naturallanguage to translate into code.
We are enabling other groups todevelop simple applications
that they can use in theirpersonal and their work life
without having to have extensivesoftware engineer background.
Klara (57:10):
I personally love, actually, the no code potential
and progression.
I know several languages, but Idon't know the coding language
is really one of the things.
When I was at Apple, I realizedhow impactful you can be if you
create an amazing app forpeople, and so I actually hope
to try them out and maybe createmy own application one day,
(57:32):
without knowing how to code, soI'm really excited about that, I
guess.
On the opposite side, there'sbeen a lot of talks about AI.
You mentioned even AI replacingus, obviously, the scary
reality that people have ethicsin AI, vulnerability testing,
getting rid of bias.
(57:53):
We talked about anything elsethat You're personally most
concerned about, if anythingthat you believe this is really
one of the key areas we all,maybe even personally, as you
mentioned we should be keepingan eye on when we're testing
some of these larger languagemodel and playing with this
generative I always say that wealways have a responsibility,
(58:16):
and it's a distributedresponsibility across everyone.
Eve (58:20):
There is responsibility for the teams and organizations
that are developing this largelanguage models to make sure
that they are built in the mostrobust way, to make sure that
they are explainable, they canbe traced, and all of that.
There is also accountabilityand responsibility in the user
side.
Don't take the outcome forgranted.
(58:42):
Make sure that you test theresult, you benchmark the result
, and also there isaccountability at the governance
side, so governments and otherinstitutions need to create the
(59:04):
right processes, the rightguidelines, so that we can all
use this technology in the mostsecure and private way.
Obviously, here in the US, weare in an election year, so I'm
concerned that there are a lotof systems that can be
(59:26):
vulnerable to adversarialattacks.
There are malicious groups thatwill manipulate the information
to deceive everyone.
So definitely investing insecurity, in privacy, in
creating the right guardrailsand introducing regulation that
(59:49):
will enable the responsible useof AI.
Klara (59:55):
Going back to the big trend 2024, as you mentioned.
What's going on?
Election year?
We have AI that people can usein the positive but not so
positive way.
We have March, theInternational Women's Day,
coming up.
Really, you can take this fromany angle you want.
What would you want to inspirepeople to be doing more of or
(01:00:18):
less of in?
Eve (01:00:18):
2024?
I love this question.
I would say there are threethings for me.
One I would say is cultivatingpositive gratitude.
I'm a big believer and I wasn'tin the beginning, so it kind of
developed over time.
I believe in empathy andkindness.
Small acts of kindness can getyou a long way Help someone,
(01:00:44):
support someone, mentor someone,sponsor someone, even if you
don't know what you're gettingout of it immediately.
I think creating that kind ofsystem of gratitude in terms of
individuals, experiences andreally integrating it as an
(01:01:05):
aspect of your life creates apositive mindset.
I think it makes you feel goodand I believe in karma.
So if you help someone and ifyou're kind to someone or a
situation, it will come back inthe most positive way for you.
The other thing that I'm a firm,firm believer is continuous
(01:01:30):
learning.
There are a lot of things thatare rapidly changing around us.
What we learned at school, whatwe learned at university, what
we did 10 years ago, is probablyalready obsolete.
So exploring new skills,staying up to date with the new
trends and new opportunities,will create a lot of net, new
(01:01:53):
professional and personal growth.
The third piece is alsoconnected with the fast and I
find it again, this is somethingthat it grew on me over time is
making sure that you getinvolved in your community.
Yes, we are all strong andgreat individuals, but we're
(01:02:15):
part of a whole.
I find acts like volunteeringin your community center,
delivering meals on wheels,doing whatever fits your skill
set, your interest and your soul, creates a sense of connection
and it makes you feel good andit helps kind of the environment
(01:02:36):
that you live in.
Klara (01:02:38):
I love all of those three Eve, maybe just to practice
them and put them into realwords now.
I'm incredibly grateful foractually again meeting you, and
if there's something I wouldlike to do in my career, the
highlight of actually knowingyou personally it's been
fantastic and I conquer yourkindness has been always one of
(01:02:59):
the things that stood out to me,and I've called you several
times about guidance on my nextsteps, and so thank you for your
mentorship as well, so thatspeaks volume also about I
consider being part of my kindof support system and a strong
leader that I look up to you,and so anybody who wants to
reach out, follow you based onthe conversation they've heard,
(01:03:21):
or maybe think about how to bestuse the new and upcoming AI
tools and platforms for theircompany and partnerships.
What's the best way to standout?
Eve (01:03:32):
First of all, I want to thank you for your time, the
conversation.
I think all your questions werevery thought provoking.
It made me think myself.
Also, I want to commend youbecause you know, I know we
worked and known each other forseveral years and I've always
been impressed with your drive,with your creativity, with your
also your agility and youropenness to change and evolve.
(01:03:55):
And you know, it was always apleasure talking to you, working
with you, and also I was alwaysa little bit starstruck because
being a professional athletetakes a lot of discipline and
you know, being able to switchentirely, like you know, from a
professional athlete career intoa business career takes a lot
(01:04:17):
of guts, so you should giveyourself a lot of credit.
I'm delighted that we had thistime to talk about different
things that might or might notbe interesting to people and,
once again, question people canfind me on LinkedIn, at if Salty
, on Twitter or ex at if Saltyand yeah, I'd like to hear from
(01:04:40):
you, know them and if you knowif this was any helpful, if they
have similar experiences and gofrom there Excellent.
Klara (01:04:47):
I'll make sure to add it to the episode notes as well.
So people again is like enjoythis episode.
I want to ask you to please dotwo things that would help me
greatly.
One please consider leaving areview on Apple Podcasts,
spotify or any other podcastingplatform that you use to listen
to this episode.
Two, please share this podcastwith a friend who you believe
(01:05:10):
might enjoy it as well.
It is a great way to remindsomeone you care about them by
sharing a conversation theymight be interested in.
Thank you for listening.
We have to break a couple of molds to make sure that we
bring women at the same level ofopportunities as other groups.
A lot of times I see women thatthey're not advocating for
themselves and I think probablywe demonstrated it even in the
call, where we wereself-doubting or we were double
guessing.
(00:20):
I think we have to feelcomfortable to communicate and
celebrate our skills, ourachievements.
I know it might feel like chestthumping, but I think it's
essential.
You have to communicate yourown words and you have to let
others know.
The other thing that I feellike we don't do a lot or we
(00:42):
don't do it in the right way isnetworking and relationship
building.
Networking is key, but I feellike a lot of times women
confuse networking for creatingfriendships and affiliations and
I think there is a bigdifference.
Networking is very crucial foradvancing your career, advancing
(01:04):
your personal brand.
It's almost like a full-timething that you need to be
committed and you need to have agoal.
Networking is not leading tofriendship, or it can, but
that's not the goal.
You should be very intentionalabout who you network, why you
network with them, where you'retrying to get out of it and
(01:25):
really lead the engagement andthe other thing that I'm guilty
myself to be honest isconfidence and assertiveness.
We need to make sure that weare asserting ourselves in a
certain way, and this meansusing a certain language.
Klara (01:42):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the
Grand Slam Journey podcast,where we discuss various topics
related to the Grand SlamJourney of our lives, finding
our passion and purpose,realizing our potential and
growing our skills andleadership, and whatever we
decide to put our minds into.
For my guest today, Eve Psalti, areas of business and
(02:05):
technology.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, please share with
someone who you believe mayenjoy it as well.
Consider leaving a review onApple Podcasts, Spotify or any
other podcasting platform whereyou listen to the episode.
If you are someone who enjoysfollowing video, feel free to
find this episode on YouTube.
(02:26):
At Grandslamjourney, this isyour Kl ara Jagosova.
Thank you for tuning in, andnow I bring you, Eve Psalti.
Hello, yves, happy Friday.
Welcome to the Grinslam Journeypodcast.
Hi, Klara, good to see youagain.
Thanks for having me.
Oh, thank you.
I'm so looking forward totalking to you about all things
(02:48):
related to your career,obviously AI, which you're on
the forefront of scaling andcreating with Microsoft and many
other partners, and many othertopics, obviously related to
women in tech.
I know it's a cause you're veryinterested in and you're
supporting, and so I'm curiouswhere this conversation takes us
(03:11):
, because I have many things Iwanted to ask you, but maybe
first I'll read a quick intro.
Ev e Psalti has has 20 yeartech and business leadership
experience, currently the seniordirector at Microsoft Azure AI
engineering organization,responsible for scaling and
commercializing artificialintelligence solutions.
(03:31):
You're previously the head ofstrategic platforms and Google
Cloud, where you and I have met,so I'm privileged through my
career, to have met leaders likeyou, where you worked with
Fortune 500 companies, helpingthem grow their businesses
through digital transformationinitiatives.
Prior to Google, you havehelped business development,
(03:55):
sales, and marketing leadershippositions at Microsoft and
startups across the US andEurope, leading over 200 people
teams and $600 millionbusinesses.
In native of Greece, which Ilove the country, I hope we're
going to dive into it a littlebit more too.
You hold a master's degree inseveral technology and business
(04:18):
certifications from LondonBusiness School and the
University of Washington.
You cruelly serve on the boardof we Global Studios, a full
stack startup innovation studiosupporting female entrepreneurs.
Please handing it over to you.
Anything you want to add?
I forgot.
Eve (04:38):
Well, thank you so much for the kind introduction.
It's almost embarrassing andyou know you're old when your
intro takes more than fourminutes.
No, I think you've covered.
That was a good summary of thekind of things that I've done.
To be honest, at heart Iconsider myself an immigrant who
is always curious, alwaysdriven.
I want to learn and do newthings and, yeah, I think my
(05:03):
searlessness and my ambitionprobably led me to do the things
that I've done and I keep doing.
Klara (05:11):
I love that addition and that's definitely a value I have
always seen in you since wehave met and obviously being
privileged to have met you whenwe were together when you were
at Google, I was at Ericsson andkind of seeing how you creating
your career and finding waysthat support your mission and
(05:31):
you really believe it becomes sointended.
But stretching yourself to whatis the next thing you're
curious and passionate about isdefinitely something that I am
looking up to and is like, oh,what would you do?
So I have many questionsrelated to your career journey,
but I typically want to start mypodcast understanding a little
(05:53):
bit about your abroad and, ifyou look back, greece is an
amazing country.
Obviously it's been the cradleof western civilization in many
ways, from philosophy toeducation to democracy.
So I'm actually curious how youare bringing.
(06:13):
Growing up in Greece shaped youand some of the values I know
you've always been passionateabout education and many of
these programs and how you foundpassion in business and
technology.
Eve (06:25):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Definitely because I spent thefirst 22 years of my life in
Greece.
It definitely shaped me in aspecific way and I think a
couple of characteristics isthat my mother was an educator,
so we grew up appreciating howeducation gives you
(06:47):
opportunities, how it opensdoors and it shapes you as an
individual.
That definitely connected a lotof dots for me down the line.
Also, I think coming from asmall country, from a smaller
economy, makes you a little bitmore scrappy.
You find kind of like trying tocreate opportunities for
(07:08):
yourself in an environment whereresources and opportunities are
scarce.
So I think these are the twoelements that I can point from
my childhood.
That kind of like created a lotof the right conditions for
what I did down the line.
Klara (07:25):
Anything specific about technology, because you've
always kept in the center how touse technology for, obviously,
business, innovation andadvancing the human cause in
education or other areas.
Eve (07:39):
Yeah, I mean that's a good point, because back then
technology looked much moredifferent than it is now and I
was always very curious.
I think that was kind of likethe element there.
So I was experimenting with newtools, new gadgets, things that
are in the market.
(07:59):
I went to school and startedprogramming with languages that
no longer really exist, althoughone, cobalt, is still in wide
use.
So I always, kind of like, wasinterested not only in the
novelty that technology brings,but also in the efficiency that
(08:21):
it brings.
And also, you know, when youstudy software and engineering,
you kind of figure out a way ofthinking that helps you make
decisions and structure thingsin other areas too.
Klara (08:35):
Was that common in Greece to be part of this technology
interest, or anybody whoinfluenced you towards it?
How did you uncover thatpassion early on?
Eve (08:45):
I think I was just curious myself.
Like I come from a householdyou know nobody had any
background in technology.
My father was a medical doctor,my mother was an educator.
I think both my brother and Ikind of like, grew up being very
curious and trying toexperiment with different things
and although it was a veryconservative environment, it was
(09:09):
also encouraged.
So yeah, I can't pinpoint aparticular individual or a
particular kind of likesituation outside of the fact
that you know we grew up in ahousehold where we were
encouraged to experiment and trynew things.
Klara (09:25):
So I guess, on the note of experimenting, trying new
things and following yourcuriosity, I'm actually curious
how did you get from Greece topursue education?
Eve (09:37):
in the US, I think how it came about.
I mean, I always wanted tostudy business and technology
but the options back then inGreece were quite limited, so I
started taking advantage.
Actually, before I came to theUS I took advantage of a program
(09:57):
that was sponsored by theEuropean Union which was
targeted for young workers.
So I did a year in theNetherlands which opened a lot
of options for me.
It was great to kind of likelive Greece and see how you can
(10:17):
live and be independent and, youknow, try things in a different
country.
That was kind of culturallydiametrically different than
Greece, and also it provided anoption for me to continue on
that journey.
That was not really clearbefore.
So after coming back from theNetherlands, I had the bug.
(10:41):
So I had to kind of like figureout what the next thing was.
So I started researchingdifferent universities in the US
where I could study businesstechnology also in kind of like,
you know, in a cost effectiveway.
So I changed a couple ofuniversities actually and
(11:04):
because I was taking advantageof the different scholarships
and that's kind of like how, Iended up in North Carolina.
I started in the University ofCharlotte in North Carolina, so
UNCC, and then I graduated fromQuinn College and, yeah, I mean
it was a great experience.
Again, living from Greece to goto the Netherlands was like a
(11:27):
huge kind of like culture shock.
And then going from theNetherlands to North Carolina,
which is not the most kind oflike progressive part of the
country, necessarily, was also acultural shock.
But again, I think it kind of,like you know, it provided me
the ability to get a collegeeducation, which I always wanted
, and also the ability to travel, to live abroad, to experience
(11:49):
new cultures and new ways ofliving and also challenge myself
.
It wasn't easy to, you know,start brand new in an
environment that was notnecessarily familiar.
And also, you know, I wastrying to, like you know, I was
doing two different jobs.
I was going to school more thanfull time.
I think I graduated in two anda half years with a great point
(12:12):
average of like 3.9 something.
So I was like really in aalmost in a hurry to kind of,
like you know, get this throughand go to the next step.
Klara (12:24):
I'm curious how was your English?
Just now you mentioned youstarted in North Carolina, which
I landed in Texas.
I thought I knew English when Icame to US and I didn't at all.
I felt like I was asking excuseme after every other or second
word, because actually in Europewe also use the British English
and actually studying inEnglish and traveling for tennis
(12:47):
tournaments and just doing theregular business as far as where
can I live and how do you findsome food and tennis courts is
very different.
So I'm curious how your journeywas and even acclimatizing to
the language overall.
Eve (13:01):
Yeah, the good thing, coming from a country that
nobody else speaks the language,is that you get to speak other
languages pretty fast.
So, because nobody speaks Greekand also Greek, greece was
always, like you know, a countrythat lived primarily on tourism
.
We were exposed to Englishspeaking.
(13:22):
You know groups, individuals,probably all of our lives.
So even if you go to Greece now, like you know, you will see
that there is a huge percentageof the pop population that is
very fluent in English or atleast one other language.
So English was never really anissue.
Yes, the accent was alwaysinteresting and, to be honest,
(13:47):
it made me question myself, likeyou know, am I the one or not
using the language right?
Because in the everydayinteractions, as you mentioned,
like you know, people make yourepeat things and says oh, you
know, I didn't catch that.
So it makes you a little bitself conscious, but it opens
another door.
I think it's an opportunity to,kind of like, learn something
new and add a feather to yourcup.
Klara (14:07):
And I think that's also that you mentioned you
transferred a few universitiesto kind of take advantage of the
scholarships, which I thinkit's so courageous.
Just also looking at my ownjourney, I've had several
opportunities to transfer duringmy college years in Texas and I
have to say I never took theopportunity for several reasons,
(14:31):
including one.
I think there was a little bitof fear for me starting over
because it takes so much to getused to the environment.
You're in at least even thefirst year, and you just find
some friends and so you actuallytake in the step and say you
know what, I just need totransfer, and you do continue.
I think that alone speaksvolume about your courage and
(14:56):
just ability to try new things.
Were you second guessing atthat point?
Or where is the mindset?
How were you adjusting todifferent environments?
Eve (15:05):
To be honest, I was never really proud of this choice.
I was more pragmatic thananything else.
I don't recommend it.
I don't think there is a rightor wrong way to do this.
I think it's a personal choice.
I just didn't want to end upwith, like you know, a huge
student loan.
(15:25):
I saw a lot of my peersaccumulating.
So I was trying to be pragmaticand of, like you know, finish
college and not end up with ahuge loan.
So I didn't really evenconsider the cost of starting
over or friendships and all ofthat.
I think it was more driven bygraduating rather than creating
(15:49):
a more relaxed environment forme leaving the college life.
But again, if I were to do itall over again, I don't know if
I would do it the exact same way.
And also it's a personal choice.
I think going to college andexperiencing college life I
think it's a great thing youonly get to experience once.
So again, I don't think thereis a right or wrong way to do
(16:11):
this.
Klara (16:12):
You mentioned.
You don't know if you would doit the same way.
I'm curious if you would backat it, anything you would change
or something that really stoodout to you.
You think, if I just did thisone thing differently, this is
what.
Eve (16:25):
I would do.
Now I don't know.
I don't like to second guessmyself and I kind of own every
decision that I made, whether itwas a good one or a bad one,
because at that point of time,given all the things that I knew
and all the things that werehappening at the same time, I
took the best decision that Ithought it was appropriate.
(16:46):
So if I had to do it all overagain, then it means that all
the other conditions would bedifferent and probably the
decision would be influenced aswell.
Klara (16:58):
Yeah, I love that thinking because I've gone back
and forth.
I have to say in my life Iwould change one thing still
looking bad, but I do know if Iwould change it it would trigger
a whole change of reaction andI don't ever know if I would end
up in a better or worse or thesame situation.
I would have to say which onewould you change?
I would have definitelytransferred.
(17:18):
So after my freshman year I hadseveral opportunities from
universities, including gettersof Pepperdine, ucla, baylor, usf
, so I had a few opportunitiesthat were kind of offering me to
take on scholarship and competein some ways in tennis on a
better level.
Oh wow.
And actually the reason why Ididn't take it was related to
(17:41):
kind of starting over, but alsoI think I was second guessing
whether I actually belong to insome ways, to the higher level
of group or people that Ithought were better off.
And so what I have learned, andI know implement, is that you
always have to make decisionsbased on the opportunity, never
(18:03):
make a based on fear.
If you make a decisions basedon fear, it's kind of the wrong
way to make decisions.
And so every decision eversince, including career decision
, I tried to look at what's theopportunity, and if I'm not
scared enough about the job orthe opportunity, then I feel
like it's not big enoughobstacle for me to move into.
(18:23):
So the more terrified you areabout your future progressions,
I think, the better off you are.
It means you're moving to theright direction, at least for me
personally, I love that.
Eve (18:33):
Yes, it's a very tough decision to make, but I think
it's always yield great resultsof personal growth and I kind of
like the fact that you'resaying that oh, you know, I was
second guessing myself, becauseI think we all did.
I find that women second guessthemselves more often and more
(18:59):
intensely than men or othergroups.
I think we are conditioned tobe more perfect, we're
conditioned to follow a certainpath and we're conditioned to
only speak or make decisions orhave opinions after doing
(19:21):
extensive research, after beingkind of like 150% sure of what
we're saying or what we're doing.
And it's unfair, it's unfair onus and I think it creates more
angst than opportunity for us.
I agree.
Klara (19:40):
I have definitely sensed as well the perfectionism,
including with just my podcast.
When I started podcasting first, it was the worst thing was to
get to listen to my own voice,and so you have to overcome that
in your own head.
And actually now my nextchapter is now moving to video
podcast, which I love.
I finally overcame my fear andI love that this conversation
(20:03):
will be streamed on YouTube andanyone can follow it video too.
But took me probably a year towork through my own fear of like
, oh my gosh, what will myfacial expressions be?
It's never the guest, it'susually just related to my own
self and how I view myself.
Eve (20:19):
But I love everything you shared and I resonate with it
personally, it's true, I stilldon't like the sound of my own
voice.
I'm trying to come to termswith my never changing accent,
because I've been in the countrysince 95 and the accent is
prominent.
Is there, like you know?
Is it annoying me?
(20:40):
No, do I think about it?
Klara (20:42):
Yes, Am I proud of it?
No, I resonate with you too.
I feel like I'm right in thesort of position where my
English will never be perfectand I'm forgetting slightly my
check.
I mean, I'm good withconversing with my mom and my
sister, but obviously businesscheck doesn't exist, so it's
actually interesting.
I feel like I'm kind of inbetween and belong nowhere, but
(21:06):
I love your accent.
Just to comment, I think it'salways just related to how we
view ourselves versus how welook at others.
Eve (21:13):
You're absolutely right.
I feel exactly the same way.
I think we know we have likeparallel paths in some ways,
because I feel like I'mconsidered a foreigner in a
country that I lived most of mylife In the US, and also a
foreigner when I go back home inGreece, given that, you know, I
(21:34):
haven't lived there since 95.
So it's kind of like a veryinteresting kind of way to be in
this type of limbo where youhave affinity to two different
countries, two differentcultures, but you don't 100%
belong to one.
Klara (21:52):
It also really makes you think about maybe the uniqueness
and in many ways I'm gonna usethe word not fitting in, because
you're kind of in your ownbubble.
How do you think about that if,as you reflect on your past, or
even now, as you're shapingyour career in technology and
(22:15):
especially area of thegenerative AI, or do you
consider that or think about?
Eve (22:19):
it at all.
I'm trying to challenge myselfto kind of like be comfortable
in both worlds.
I mean, obviously, my life andmy job and most of my
interactions are in the US, butI in the past, kind of like you
know, several years I tried toreconnect with you know work
that is being done in Greece.
(22:40):
I feel like I'm interested inconnecting back to a lot of
organizations, a lot of groupsthat are really investing in the
country.
They're investing in the futureof the country, whether it's
independent groups, governmentalgroups, technology associations
.
So this is kind of like aninterest for me and that's kind
(23:01):
of like a way to reconnect witha part of myself, of my personal
and also professional life.
I didn't pay as much attentionin the past 20 years.
Klara (23:12):
I actually had that thought when you were posting at
your future conferences.
I believe there's a conferencein Athens that you're going to
attend and talk about this newtechnology that you're driving
(23:33):
globally with the biggestcompany in the world, microsoft
over, took out of easily.
Ai is the trend and everybodysays it is because of the future
that you're building with allof the technology that it's
unlocking next level ofproductivity, effectiveness,
creativity I'm going to pausethere because you're the expert
(23:53):
on it, but we're going to diveinto next.
But how does it feel to go back?
Eve (23:57):
It's always great and it's amazing to see the new
generation really changing thecountry right.
And what I see, which is like afascinating and I'm really
really glad that this ishappening, is when I left the
country, it was a little bitfrowned upon to kind of leave
right for many reasons, and nowI see individuals kind of like
(24:24):
newer gen generations thateither finishing school and
college in Greece or they'regoing abroad and then coming
back.
So I feel like there's not likethe brain drain that we saw 20
years ago, but now people arecoming back for whatever reason,
right, but they realize thatGreece is kind of like, you know
(24:46):
, is a great place to live.
It's a great place to behealthy and active, you know,
many days of sunshine, beautifuland environment, so it's not
like a bad place to live, butit's also becoming, you know, I
think there are changes in thebusiness side.
(25:07):
That and conditions thatattract these individuals to
come back and start their ownbusinesses in Greece, whether
they are, you know, business inthe cities or even in the
countryside, and it's reallyencouraging.
I hope that the governmentcontinues to support them,
(25:29):
because a lot of timesbureaucracy can get in the way
of doing things right and fastand, you know, and enabling
people to like realize theirdream.
But more and more I see thistrend, which is really
encouraging, and that's why I'maffiliated with a couple of
groups that support this,because eventually this will
(25:50):
help the country grow In theright direction.
And, you know, it's great tosee the Gen Z is returning and
not doing what I'm doing.
Klara (26:07):
Yeah, it's nice that some people actually go back.
I always say if more peoplewere like me, check tradition
would die, because I'm justreally bad and keep that with
any check tradition.
So it's nice and that somepeople still go back or stay in
the country and continue To havethis uniqueness, which I love,
when I travel around the worldto experience the unique
(26:28):
cultures and how people dothings.
Maybe, on that note oftechnology, let's dive a little
bit deeper into what you do now.
I've been very passionaterecently about the large
language models, so thegenerative AI trend.
I've been trying to follow whatyou write on LinkedIn and I
(26:50):
know there's much happening whenit comes to what this could do
for us as a humanity, as well astechnology advancements, and
maybe even in relation to Greeceand the next level of what
Greece economy can achieve.
What are you most optimisticabout and what would you maybe
even everybody to know about it.
Eve (27:10):
Yeah, that's a great question and a big, big topic.
Generative AI really explodedin the past couple of years,
right, and this large languagemodels kind of like you know the
notion that you can interactwith an AI system and get a lot
of accurate results back.
It really changed the way thatwe work, that we think, that we
(27:33):
go to school, that we look forinformation.
Of course, there are severalchallenges that we're gonna talk
about, but what I'm mostoptimistic about is like that I
see how this technology isreally improving the way that we
(27:53):
do a lot of things like.
Let's take in that, for example, healthcare.
These AI models are so accurateand so advanced that they can
help improve diagnostics.
It can help with pro providingyou know, personalized medicine.
It can help with providingpersonalized treatment outcomes.
(28:15):
The fact that this machinelearning models can analyze vast
amount of medical informationcan lead to more accurate diet
diagnosis, right, so this islike this is huge.
Then we have in mostly kind oflike the business side.
It can increase the efficiencyof the individual.
(28:36):
So I always see AI as a tool, asa copilot, as we said Microsoft
rather than the end of all.
It might not be a hundredpercent right, but is it a tool
that will save you time?
It will help you automateroutine tasks, it can help you
streamline processes and it willEnhance your personal
efficiency.
Absolutely, and in the largerscheme, if you're a corporation,
(29:00):
it can save money, it canincrease the productivity of
your groups and it can help yoube more competitive in the
marketplace, right?
Also, in areas where we don'tsee, where it's not really that
evident, is education, which hasalways been a very traditional
sector and a little bit, youknow, fearful of new pack.
(29:21):
We see that education is beingtransformed through AI because
it can help with personalizedlearning.
It can really free up theeducator to spend more time in
the classroom with the studentsadapting to their own personal
needs rather than doing kind oflike repetitive tasks.
(29:44):
So there are a lot ofefficiencies that, again, if we
use it and we understand it as atool, it can help with our
everyday tasks and it will helpus free up time to do the more
important things that we humansare great at.
Klara (29:59):
Yeah, I love that.
Just to touch on maybe all ofthe industries or examples
you've shared.
Definitely healthcare I've beenpart of Apple Health and not to
share anything proprietary.
But one thing this has come inknowledge that everybody can
look at just third party dataand research.
There's a huge decline innurses, obviously because of the
(30:25):
shortage and the one out thatwent through COVID, as was
doctors.
There's more and more peopleaging, I believe by 2050.
The amount of population ofpeople who are age 65 and above
will more than double.
And then you have also thisknowledge gap, as was the health
system gap, of who will takecare of this aging population
(30:48):
and how best to take care ofthem.
And so doctors are forced moreand more to be more effective
and more efficient and theydon't have actually even the
time needed to often dedicatethe time that the people would
want to have spent with thedoctor because they're also
pressured for this efficiency.
I believe many listeners havefriends who are doctors.
(31:08):
I hear from my friends who aredoctors that they're so being
driven to this oh, you only havelike 30 minutes with this
person and that's all you canspend, and so if you have that,
how can I use these tools toactually be more accurate and
helps support them.
So I 100% agree and I loveactually seeing that the
healthcare is adopting thistechnology so early on, because
(31:31):
I find they're typically one ofthe more hesitant industries,
which kind of makes sensebecause they're dealing with
health data, but I do loveseeing this trend.
On efficiency, I love actuallyusing many AI tools for my
podcast.
So, from a process perspectiveincluding some titles,
suggestions and summarydescriptions I've actually found
(31:51):
it a huge improvement inaddition to my process.
But actually diving into theeducation, I love what you
mentioned because, especially atthe beginning, I have read a
lot of things about obviously,teachers and professors being
worried that students will usethis for, like cheating and
essay generation, so nobody willwrite anymore essays, and it
(32:13):
seems like you're actuallyseeing different trend and
you've been passionate abouteducation for many, many years.
It's been an area that you havebeen focusing on professionally
.
Share a little bit more aboutthat and how you see the
difference of the fear that I'vebeen reading about and maybe
it's in the market versus whatyou see as the reality of people
actually using this in aproductive way.
Eve (32:35):
Yeah, I mean as I said, like education, has been a very
traditional sector by design,but we see a wide adoption both
in the K through 12 and in thehigher ed area.
Educators, like the healthcareprofessionals is in high risk
(32:55):
right, especially in the US.
They're not very wellcompensated for the work that
they do.
They're very thinly spread,they work with classrooms or
like 40, 45 kids.
And it's very difficult toprovide that personalized
learning experience that everystudent needs.
So, if you have an AI co-pilotto help you grade like all the
(33:21):
different tests that you needand you can free up time to
spend more one-to-one time inthe classroom with your students
, this is great right.
If you can use AI to generateor to get some ideas, like a
brainstorm, around how to builda lesson plan, that's great
(33:42):
right.
You can still create the lessonplan with your trademark on it,
but you don't have to startfrom zero, right.
I think we need to find kind oflike the efficiencies and the
processes.
Now, on the other side, I hearwhat you're saying will a
student go to chat GPT andgenerate an essay and then
submit it and all of that?
The reality is that, yes, theycan do it, but also, as an
(34:06):
educator, you can catch this.
There is software and there are,I think, a couple of
applications that you can use Idon't remember the names, but to
figure out plagiarism, so it'seasy to detect.
And also you can kind of likesee it from the language,
because, yes, these lamps cangenerate text in a very
(34:29):
human-like way.
But A you have to be careful ofthe timestamp, because a lot of
these models their trainingstopped like six months or eight
months or 12 months before.
So if you're writing an essayabout kind of like current
events, it won't really help youand you have to do the research
(34:51):
yourself.
And also there are a lot oftools that can help the
educators catch, you know, thistype of plagiarism.
Again, I think you have to useit as a tool.
It's not gonna replace the workthat you do.
I think there is a lot of fearlike oh you know, is AI
replacing the educator?
No, because what you'reteaching your students is around
(35:12):
this 21st century learningskills, right, which is
creativity, decision-making,critical thinking.
Ai cannot do this.
Klara (35:22):
I do love the example you give, especially about grading.
That's something I haven'tconsidered, but I have read many
studies around, sometimes thebias around grading and the way
our minds work, and I believeeven famous Daniel Kahneman
writes about it in his bookmaybe I've read it in one of his
(35:42):
article or his bookspecifically because if people
grade the way our minds work,you always are biased, based on
the latest report you have read,especially in essay-like
answers, and so I actuallywonder if this accurately
constructed LLM could actuallybe more accurate and less biased
(36:05):
when it comes to grading toactually provide more proper way
of grade papers.
Eve (36:11):
So I love that example, just something that came into
mind, yeah but I mean, youtouched on a good point around
bias and I think there isinherent bias in humans and also
in AI models as well, andthat's one of the concerns that
I think everyone who isdeveloping or using this AI
(36:31):
models is concerned about,because these AI systems can
inherit bias that is present inthe data that is being used to
train them, so it leads, or itcan lead, to bias, prediction,
bias, decision making.
(36:52):
So that's why it's veryimportant A as a user, to
educate yourself how the modelthat you're using, how it has
been trained, and also be verycritical and test the outcomes
and the results that it yields.
(37:13):
If you are creating the models,I think it's important to make
sure that there is kind of likea governance process to
establish explainability,transparency around what type of
data is being used for training, what is the decision making
(37:36):
process, and have this kind oflike what we call responsible AI
guidelines and frameworks forhow we develop and how we deploy
this tools.
Klara (37:48):
I love that you mentioned it.
It's something I've beenpondering for quite a while.
Maybe, just to give example, Ithink everybody has been using
some sort of this smartassistant.
I always felt especially at thebeginning when I used Alexa and
there's been some of thesearticles that people said I had
to like lower my voice, hey,alexa.
And when I talked to Alexa inthe lower voice, that was more
(38:12):
of like where typically men arepositioned.
It actually heard me betterthan in my high level women
pitch and obviously it's nottrained for understanding Czech
English, but that's one examplethat comes to mind, but you can
translate it to really anythingelse, because these models
really use data that need to belabeled by someone.
(38:32):
I guess now we can use perhapsautomated process for even the
data labeling, which canaccelerate some of the LLM
development.
But that's what I've beenhearing is the importance of
diversity, and I again one lovethat we have a leader like you
pioneering this trend and weneed more women in this
(38:53):
generative AI because it's goingto drive sort of the
advancements of many differentindustries, and so if we don't
have kind of the right diversityset, who is looking at how to
create this right models andlabeling the data, that could
further create a bigger gendergap in many different industries
, but also bias towards likespecific angle based on who's
(39:14):
creating it.
You have mentioned some ofthese things that people may
want to adopt, to eliminate it.
Anything else that's top ofmind.
For I guess, if you think aboutthis technology and even your
passion of creating moreequality for women in leadership
positions, what are you mostconcerned about, if anything, or
(39:35):
what's top of your mind?
Eve (39:36):
Yeah, I mean definitely.
To close the previous topic,you're absolutely right.
Having diversity in the groupsthat develop, review and deploy
this model is absolutely key,not only for gender balance, but
for full representation acrossall different teams and types of
(39:56):
individuals and groups, whetherthey're represented or not,
especially for women, sincewe're going towards the March 8
timeframe where they give us aday, so that's good.
I'm a big advocate aboutcreating kind of equity for
(40:17):
women, especially women inbusiness, women in STEM, women
in leadership roles.
We are again going back to whatwe said in the beginning.
We are conditioned to behave ina different way and I think we
have to break a couple of moldsto make sure that we bring women
at the same level ofopportunities as other groups.
(40:39):
A lot of times I see women thatthey're not advocating for
themselves and I think probablywe demonstrated it even in the
call, where we wereself-doubting or we were double
guessing.
I think we have to feelcomfortable to communicate and
celebrate our skills, ourachievements and our
(41:02):
attributions.
I know it might feel like chestthumping, but I think it's
essential.
You have to communicate yourown words and you have to let
others know, because you lead byexample and also it's good to
celebrate its success.
The other thing that I feellike we don't do a lot or we
(41:22):
don't do it in the right way isnetworking and relationship
building.
Networking is key, but I feellike a lot of times women
confuse networking for creatingfriendships and affiliations.
I think there is a bigdifference.
Networking is very crucial foradvancing your career, advancing
(41:46):
your personal brand.
It's almost like a full-timething that you need to be
committed and you need to have agoal.
Networking is not leading tofriendship, or it can, but
that's not the goal.
You should be very intentionalabout who you network, why you
network with them, where you'retrying to get out of it and
(42:09):
really lead the engagement,whether it's like a mentorship
thing or you want to use that tojoin a professional association
or whatever the goal is.
So I think networking is thesecond thing that I feel, like
women, we need to pay attentionand we need to get a little bit
better on.
(42:29):
And the other thing that I'mguilty myself, to be honest, is
confidence and assertiveness.
We need to make sure that weare asserting ourselves in a
certain way, and this meansusing a certain language, using
certain verbs to make sure thatwe're expressing our ideas in a
(42:57):
strong way we're advocating forourselves, because that's how
you bring equity across all thedifferent groups.
The controversial thing is aboutbuilding a personal brand.
I know this is kind of like avery controversial term, because
really is a personal brand.
Does it make sense to create apersonal brand?
(43:19):
I'm a strong proponent of it.
This might be a controversialstatement for many, but a
well-defined brand can reallycontribute to visibility, to
opportunities.
You have to curate your ownkind of persona, not really go
(43:40):
outside of who you are.
You have to maintain the DNA ofwho you are what makes you tick
, what makes you interesting,what makes you comfortable.
But being very intentionalabout this curated view will
open a lot of doors.
I highly recommend it.
Klara (43:56):
Yes, I love all the tips you've given, eve, and I could
name every single one in thepast, including probably present
, that I can still do better andcontinue to practice.
Just to add totally agree onthe expression and what you
mentioned, even the confidenceand assertiveness One of the
things actually when I starteddoing my podcast and I'm
(44:18):
interviewing, obviously, men andwomen is actually interesting
when I have noticed some of thedifferences in tone and how men
versus women express discomfortwith some questions.
We typically tend to kind ofmake it like a laugh but we make
our voice a bit softer than mentypically do.
(44:41):
Obviously, I curse, serve theboard that I don't have
statistics other than that 68episodes I have released, but in
the context of those, it's beeninteresting of even just my
understanding of the tone we useand how we communicate.
Eve (44:59):
Obviously, networking 100% agree, words matter, yeah
absolutely Sorry, I didn't meanto interrupt, just to add to
this point.
Words really matter and I findthat women use kind of like
these things.
So let me add my two cents,meaning, like you know, my
opinion is not really supercritical, but I'm going to add
(45:19):
on.
No, you're offering a point ofview, it's not two cents, it can
be $100, or they might say, inmy opinion, well, of course, but
I mean don't caveat it Right.
I mean just be very assertiveand use very strong words, use
our statements, which I thinkwill position you in that power
(45:39):
role within the room.
Klara (45:42):
Yes, and having fantastic female leaders as examples
actually do help.
One of the things I do want tomention being an apple, I have
seen way more female leadersthan perhaps at Ericsson, which
has been fantastic and learningfrom them and seeing women
stepping up and leading with theassertiveness and speaking the
(46:03):
mind At least for me it's beenjust so refreshing and so great
to see.
I was like, oh my God, there'sthis woman that's not putting
herself down, but she isconfident and she knows how to
communicate with confidenceabout that specific topic and
she's not afraid to step up andsay no and have a different
(46:23):
opinion, without some of thesekind of words of making herself
look smaller or her opinionlooks smaller.
And you're obviously one ofthose, eva, as well, that I look
up to you and so it's beenreally fantastic to know leader
like you.
I want to dive in into your owncareer as well and just to
(46:44):
reflect anybody who's thinkingoh my God, eva's great Looks at
your LinkedIn.
I would love to have a career,perhaps like Eve and you know
there's, I believe, no linearprogression to a goal but,
reflecting back on many of theroles you have had, I'm actually
even curious what are some ofthe most fun roles and what made
(47:06):
them fun for you.
Eve (47:06):
You've done so many different things.
I think the roles that wereinteresting were a couple of the
product management roles,because I think when you're in a
product management kind of likeenvironment, you have this
duality.
So you care about the product,the technology, creating
(47:29):
something from scratch, but alsoyou care about the user, the
customer, the person on theother side who will really
experience the service, theproduct, the tool.
And I think, having thisduality and going back and forth
, kind of like how do we buildit in the most efficient way?
But also is it the right thingthat we're?
(47:52):
How do we make it easy toconsume, to experience, how do
we delight the user?
But also are we stringliningthe software development part of
it?
So you have to constantly goback and forth, which can be
exhausting, but I find it reallya rewarding way to kind of like
you know, look at both sides ofthe coin and create something.
(48:14):
So it kind of like combines thecreativity and the, you know,
creating something from nothingbut also creating something that
people will want to use andgravitate and even love.
Klara (48:27):
I love that and I think just you mentioning that example
brings me also almost back toyour upbringing and what you had
mentioned, your journey andthat curiosity and creativity of
trying to find your way throughand really following what you
believe was interesting to youand learning from that.
So I can see that connection ofwhat you mentioned even early
(48:49):
on.
Maybe just for everybody, Iwant to quickly summarize you.
You started your career inMicrosoft early on, where you've
been building skills andexperience to hold high profile
roles, including global directorof the public sector, where you
had education programs in 119countries reaching more than 220
(49:10):
million students and 12 millioneducators.
At Google Cloud, you were thehead of strategic platforms,
helping to transform industrieswith Google Clouds, technology
and innovation.
Now, as we mentioned, back atMicrosoft, I'm reaching the next
level of creativity andproductivity for enterprise with
Azure Cloud and the AI platform.
(49:32):
You've shared some tips abouteven women, what we should be
doing better, but I'm curious ifyou look back on your what
sounds impressive career, I amsure there's no career like
yours without some setbacks orhard learnings as well.
So if you had to reflect onthat, what were perhaps some of
(49:55):
the learnings that didn't cometo you.
Naturally, you had to learn thehard way and you would think,
oh, I think this is somethingthat people should keep top of
mind to maybe don't go throughsome of the hard times that I
had gone through.
Eve (50:10):
I would say that earlier in my career I was very hard on
myself when I would fail orsomething.
So I was not really embracingfailure as a learning
opportunity.
I was embracing, as you know,I'm not good enough, I'm not
(50:30):
doing it right, I will never doit right.
So I was very hard on myself.
Being kind to yourself andreally seeing a failure as a way
to learn, as a way to makeadjustments, to understand what
went wrong and really use thisas an experience to improve, is
something that I'm kind of likegetting better and I think I'm
(50:51):
at a point now where it's kindof like water off my back, but
earlier on it really took a hardtoll on me.
Another thing is prioritizingwork-life balance.
I know it sounds very cliche,but for someone who is very
ambitious, who is very driven,who is very energetic, it's very
easy to commit to your work andnot have kind of like a more
(51:17):
balanced approach.
There were times that I was,you know, burning out and this
was really impacting myproductivity.
I was not happy doing what I'mdoing.
I wasn't good at settingboundaries and because, again, I
was very ambitious, I thoughtlike, oh, if I would do this
extra thing, I would like reallygrow in my career, and that's
(51:41):
not the case.
You don't have to kill yourselfto grow your career.
You don't have to work overtime, you don't have to dial in at
five o'clock in the morning and,like you know, 9pm at night.
I had to find this the hard way.
It was very, very hard at times, like my 30s and my 40s.
(52:03):
The other thing is, I would say,what I'm getting better now and
what I wish I was much betterearlier on is really cultivating
that growth mindset.
That was the one that kind ofbrought it as a concept to
Microsoft and it wasgroundbreaking and all of that.
But I mean, the more I thinkabout it, really adopting a
(52:24):
growth mindset where you see achallenge not as something that
is stopping you or aggravatingyou or it's the end of all, but
as an opportunity to learn andimprove and also kind of like
how to be resilient, are reallykind of like things that I had
to learn the hard way.
I was really focusing on thesetbacks and I was seeing them
(52:50):
as my path to failure ratherthan a stepping stone to growth
and success.
And, you know, overallhappiness.
And then the last thing, which,again you know, I think it
serves us well, both in ourpersonal and our business life,
is be clear and communicateclearly what you want.
(53:14):
Be not only articulate in howyou present your ideas and you
know, how you listen activelyand all of that but really be
very concrete in how you want tocommunicate your ideas and how
to present yourself andconviction, because that's a
(53:35):
great trait of a good leader.
A good leader doesn't have tosay a lot of things.
You have to say the rightthings at the right time, with
the right empathy, with a veryactive listening, and these are
things that you know can carryyou in many, many situations
inside and outside of work.
Klara (53:55):
It's been fantastic hearing your tips and your
personal experiences, obviouslyabout career and what we women
could be doing more of toachieve our next curve, whatever
that means for each of us.
I have a few more questionsthat I wanted to ask, obviously
even in relation to your job.
(54:15):
Now, since you're creating thefuture of creativity and
productivity for enterpriseswith the AI platform, what are
you personally most optimisticabout when it comes to this
technology?
Eve (54:28):
We're really at a point where AI models are becoming
very accurate, they're becomingvery powerful and I think they
provide a great tool for us todo our work much easier in a
more efficient way.
So, again, as I said, we haveto really pay attention to not
(54:51):
take everything for granted orjust challenge the outcomes.
I think exercise criticalthinking to make sure that the
systems are not hallucinating orthey're not providing the wrong
information.
But AI, I see it as ahorizontal, as kind of like a
(55:11):
key ingredient of our everydaylife, or getting stuff done
easier and better and freeing uptime for us to do things that
are more important, moreinteresting.
A lot of people talk about jobdisplacement, for example, and
the reality is that, yes, if youare doing a repetitive job, yes
(55:36):
, your role might be at risk,but I think this opens up a lot
of opportunities for new rolesthat will be able to use AI in
order to do certain tasks.
So what I would like to get outof that is to make sure that all
(55:58):
of us get familiar with theadvancements that are happening
in the generative AI space,because in many cases, we'll
need to have that training.
We need to have this additionalawareness and these additional
skills that will help us get abetter role, a more fruitful
(56:22):
career, even if you're not asoftware engineer.
Right, you don't have to be adeveloper in order to be in AI.
If anything, I think we seethings with prompt engineering.
We see kind of like the poolopening and we're democratizing
all the various groups that cancode, especially now with new
(56:47):
models that are using naturallanguage to translate into code.
We are enabling other groups todevelop simple applications
that they can use in theirpersonal and their work life
without having to have extensivesoftware engineer background.
Klara (57:10):
I personally love, actually, the no code potential
and progression.
I know several languages, but Idon't know the coding language
is really one of the things.
When I was at Apple, I realizedhow impactful you can be if you
create an amazing app forpeople, and so I actually hope
to try them out and maybe createmy own application one day,
(57:32):
without knowing how to code, soI'm really excited about that, I
guess.
On the opposite side, there'sbeen a lot of talks about AI.
You mentioned even AI replacingus, obviously, the scary
reality that people have ethicsin AI, vulnerability testing,
getting rid of bias.
(57:53):
We talked about anything elsethat You're personally most
concerned about, if anythingthat you believe this is really
one of the key areas we all,maybe even personally, as you
mentioned we should be keepingan eye on when we're testing
some of these larger languagemodel and playing with this
generative I always say that wealways have a responsibility,
(58:16):
and it's a distributedresponsibility across everyone.
Eve (58:20):
There is responsibility for the teams and organizations
that are developing this largelanguage models to make sure
that they are built in the mostrobust way, to make sure that
they are explainable, they canbe traced, and all of that.
There is also accountabilityand responsibility in the user
side.
Don't take the outcome forgranted.
(58:42):
Make sure that you test theresult, you benchmark the result
, and also there isaccountability at the governance
side, so governments and otherinstitutions need to create the
(59:04):
right processes, the rightguidelines, so that we can all
use this technology in the mostsecure and private way.
Obviously, here in the US, weare in an election year, so I'm
concerned that there are a lotof systems that can be
(59:26):
vulnerable to adversarialattacks.
There are malicious groups thatwill manipulate the information
to deceive everyone.
So definitely investing insecurity, in privacy, in
creating the right guardrailsand introducing regulation that
(59:49):
will enable the responsible useof AI.
Klara (59:55):
Going back to the big trend 2024, as you mentioned.
What's going on?
Election year?
We have AI that people can usein the positive but not so
positive way.
We have March, theInternational Women's Day,
coming up.
Really, you can take this fromany angle you want.
What would you want to inspirepeople to be doing more of or
(01:00:18):
less of in?
Eve (01:00:18):
2024?
I love this question.
I would say there are threethings for me.
One I would say is cultivatingpositive gratitude.
I'm a big believer and I wasn'tin the beginning, so it kind of
developed over time.
I believe in empathy andkindness.
Small acts of kindness can getyou a long way Help someone,
(01:00:44):
support someone, mentor someone,sponsor someone, even if you
don't know what you're gettingout of it immediately.
I think creating that kind ofsystem of gratitude in terms of
individuals, experiences andreally integrating it as an
(01:01:05):
aspect of your life creates apositive mindset.
I think it makes you feel goodand I believe in karma.
So if you help someone and ifyou're kind to someone or a
situation, it will come back inthe most positive way for you.
The other thing that I'm a firm,firm believer is continuous
(01:01:30):
learning.
There are a lot of things thatare rapidly changing around us.
What we learned at school, whatwe learned at university, what
we did 10 years ago, is probablyalready obsolete.
So exploring new skills,staying up to date with the new
trends and new opportunities,will create a lot of net, new
(01:01:53):
professional and personal growth.
The third piece is alsoconnected with the fast and I
find it again, this is somethingthat it grew on me over time is
making sure that you getinvolved in your community.
Yes, we are all strong andgreat individuals, but we're
(01:02:15):
part of a whole.
I find acts like volunteeringin your community center,
delivering meals on wheels,doing whatever fits your skill
set, your interest and your soul, creates a sense of connection
and it makes you feel good andit helps kind of the environment
(01:02:36):
that you live in.
Klara (01:02:38):
I love all of those three Eve, maybe just to practice
them and put them into realwords now.
I'm incredibly grateful foractually again meeting you, and
if there's something I wouldlike to do in my career, the
highlight of actually knowingyou personally it's been
fantastic and I conquer yourkindness has been always one of
(01:02:59):
the things that stood out to me,and I've called you several
times about guidance on my nextsteps, and so thank you for your
mentorship as well, so thatspeaks volume also about I
consider being part of my kindof support system and a strong
leader that I look up to you,and so anybody who wants to
reach out, follow you based onthe conversation they've heard,
(01:03:21):
or maybe think about how to bestuse the new and upcoming AI
tools and platforms for theircompany and partnerships.
What's the best way to standout?
Eve (01:03:32):
First of all, I want to thank you for your time, the
conversation.
I think all your questions werevery thought provoking.
It made me think myself.
Also, I want to commend youbecause you know, I know we
worked and known each other forseveral years and I've always
been impressed with your drive,with your creativity, with your
also your agility and youropenness to change and evolve.
(01:03:55):
And you know, it was always apleasure talking to you, working
with you, and also I was alwaysa little bit starstruck because
being a professional athletetakes a lot of discipline and
you know, being able to switchentirely, like you know, from a
professional athlete career intoa business career takes a lot
(01:04:17):
of guts, so you should giveyourself a lot of credit.
I'm delighted that we had thistime to talk about different
things that might or might notbe interesting to people and,
once again, question people canfind me on LinkedIn, at if Salty
, on Twitter or ex at if Saltyand yeah, I'd like to hear from
(01:04:40):
you, know them and if you knowif this was any helpful, if they
have similar experiences and gofrom there Excellent.
Klara (01:04:47):
I'll make sure to add it to the episode notes as well.
So people again is like enjoythis episode.
I want to ask you to please dotwo things that would help me
greatly.
One please consider leaving areview on Apple Podcasts,
spotify or any other podcastingplatform that you use to listen
to this episode.
Two, please share this podcastwith a friend who you believe
(01:05:10):
might enjoy it as well.
It is a great way to remindsomeone you care about them by
sharing a conversation theymight be interested in.
Thank you for listening.
Host
Klara Jagosova
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