71. Jeanette Irekvist︱President Ericsson Canada on Leading Through Change and Future of Telecom and AI

Episode Transcript
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Jeanette (00:00):
There's something about fairness of how you treat
people Always treat people inthe same way, whoever they are
in the company, whatever rolethey're doing.
Their contributions just asimportant.
So you're always having thatfairness around people and
that's maybe the equality wetalked a little bit before.
Good people always come back toyou.

(00:20):
Here we are sitting, you triedto move as far away as possible
and, you know, still here youare.
Good people come back to you,but people in general.
So treat people with respect.
There's something around karma.
I'm not a Buddhist, etc.
But there's something aroundkarma.
So you do treat people in acertain way and I expect
everybody around me to beextremely respectful to each

(00:42):
other, even when they disagree.
That's okay.
They can disagree all day long,but they are respectful and
they are going to beprofessional to each other and I
expect everyone to be that inwhatever circumstances.
That is and simply also comingback to that, you know we all
carry our own history and career, all different backgrounds,
especially here in Canada wherewe have extreme diversity.

(01:03):
You need to make sure that youreally are taking care of that
and being that person.
Totally a little bit aboutdiscipline when it comes to
respect.
It's also about beingrespectful of doing what is
expected from you and doing itin time and quality, because
others are dependent on you.
So how do you ensure that youactually help others and allow
others to be in collaboration?
Because in the end, it's a team.

(01:24):
So if I'm not doing my part,then quickly start spalling
apart on the weakest link in thechain.
And there's a lot to be said.
I think about that.
It depends on context.
I probably highlight differentthings.

Klara (01:40):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Grand
Slam Journey podcast, where wediscuss various topics related
to the Grand Slam Journey ofour lives Sports, business and
technology, and growing ourskills and leadership in
whatever we decide to put ourminds into.
For my guest today, areas ofbusiness and technology.

(02:04):
I know Jeanette from my days atEricsson.
I've had the privilege to learnfrom and be mentored by
Jeanette on several occasionsand I've decided to keep her in
my life, even after I haveembarked on a new career journey
.
I think about my time atEricsson very fondly and meeting

(02:24):
Jeanette has been definitelyone of the best experiences.
During this episode, we talkabout her journey from small
town in Sweden all the way tonow becoming the president of
Ericsson Canada.
We talk about Jeanette'sleadership and her principles.
I highlight several qualitiesthat I have personally observed

(02:45):
and learned from Jeanette, aswell as her view on
telecommunications, the outlookon the industry, artificial
intelligence and convergence ofthe two.
If you enjoyed this listen,please share it with someone you
believe may enjoy it as well.
Consider leaving a review onApple Podcasts or Spotify, and

(03:07):
don't forget to subscribe so youdon't miss the next episode.
Note this episode is alsoavailable in video on YouTube
Grand Slam Journey Channel Thisis your host Klara Jagosova .
Thank you for tuning in, andnow I bring you Jeanette
Irekvist.
Hello, Jeanette, welcome to theGrand Slam Journey Podcast.

(03:28):
So great to have you.

Jeanette (03:31):
Thank you, clara, for having me.
It's fantastic to see you andget to talk to you.
Thank you for inviting me.
Oh, thank you.

Klara (03:40):
I've been so privileged to have you as an amazing leader
and mentor in my life.
There's many things, as Ireflect on my Erkson career,
that I am very grateful for andthink very highly about, and
actually having the chance tomeet you and learn from you is
definitely one of the top, andso I'm so thrilled to talk about

(04:03):
your Grand Slam Journey of lifefrom Sweden To now being the
president of Erkson in Canada.
I know you're also an athleteyou do running, skiing and many
of the things that you haveexperienced who have your
tremendous career.
So I'm curious where thisconversation takes us, but I

(04:24):
want to give you an opportunityto introduce yourself to the
listeners, anything you want toadd and you'd like people to
know about you.
Thank you for that introduction.

Jeanette (04:34):
I feel it adds to the pressure of this conversation,
but I'll just maybe just do kindof a checkpoint in time where
I'm at now, because I thinkwe'll talk a lot about why and
where and how it took me here.
But so today, as you said, I'mleading ourselves and business
and operations here in Erkson inCanada, been doing so for a

(04:56):
couple of years and also in mypresidential I get the privilege
to work with our R&D, so ourresearch and development sites
here in Canada, which are twoamazing sites with an Ottawa,
montreal, who are really helpingErkson stay in the forefront of
technology.
So that's really my role as itis today and it's been a long
and a winding road and I am nothere to give any career advice

(05:18):
because I've never really hadany good career planning myself,
so I can just start with that.
But really been doing all thethings that you actually more or
less can see in the company andbeen around, and I think that's
maybe what took me to thisplace, but we'll talk more about
that.
But that's where today I'mliving outside Toronto and I've

(05:40):
been in North America for thepast 10 years, after having been
at Erkson for over 20 years.
The last 20 years has been inthe US and Canada, so it's been
a very privileged and blessedjourney.

Klara (05:50):
I love diving into all of that and I would say you're
underplaying your skill set.
I do actually have somesurprise quotes.
Yes, I'm still connected tosome of your teams and I was
asking them what should I bringup?
What should I ask Jeanette,how's her leadership?
And so I'm going to try tobring some of those up because
later on in the conversation,because they're just fantastic

(06:13):
and I think they deserve to beheard from across the world.
But I do want to go back.
Maybe I want to start back inSweden.
I love knowing where my guestscome from.
I have international guests andso it's always interesting to
hear about their upbringing intheir country, where they're
from.
So you're obviously from Sweden, but if you take us back a

(06:37):
little bit to your upbringing,did you play sports?
And even what may haveinfluenced you on this path of
business and technology?

Jeanette (06:45):
I guess that's a long dinner conversation to how you
know who are you.
Where did you come from?
I'm a small town girl from asmall town and outside a small
town in Sweden, so really out inthe small suburban areas, and I
am a child of an immigrantmother and a Swedish father.
So I grew up, I guess,multicultural my whole life.

(07:08):
I love Sweden and all thebeauty of it as a country but as
a people, the openness andwillingness to always see new
things, but also simplicity andequality.
That goes across as kind of ared thread throughout our
culture and who we are.
So loving that part, but alsothen having a mother who is from

(07:30):
Croatia, I got all the suddenMediterranean blood and habits,
family culture with big dinnersand I guess you see the hand
gestures already coming here.
It's not just Italians who havethem, the rest of us from down
there have them as well.
Usually my husband would tellme, like you know, you're a
pretty calm person in general,but your Mediterranean blood you

(07:52):
can really show it when you,when you drive.
So that's seemingly the biggest.
You know, that's where I havemy biggest up.
I like to drive as a one of asudden Mediterranean person, I
guess that's kind of my family.
So I'm used to kind of spendingmy summers down in Croatia and
Sweden.
So I'm used to thatmulticultural conference, which
I think has absolutely affectedme in my work choices, and

(08:13):
wanting to work in a globalcompany where you have kind of
the whole world as you work infield and you get to meet people
from all the cultures whocontinuously exposed from all
that beauty and all the you know, intelligence and all those
insights that you get from thewhole world, and I just love
that part.
The other thing is that whenyou grow up like me, I wasn't
out on a country farm so itwasn't that bad but really when

(08:36):
you're in a small place like me,in a small village, there isn't
too much to do.
So you kind of have to kind ofgrab on to the things that are
there to do.
So we talked about sports.
I have played soccer and pingpong.
I've tried almost any sportthere is because I just kind of
tried it out, because you knowjust to have something to do and
keep myself busy, and I veryquickly concluded that my feet

(08:59):
are there to run with.
They should not do a ball whilethey're on.
That's not my thing, absolutely.
I'm not even close to it.
So what I've done, I did a lotof swimming in my young up to
kind of high schools, which Ithink I learned a lot around
discipline and, you know,pushing through and kind of
consistency.

(09:19):
And then it worked on withEuropean handball.
A lot of Americans wouldn'tknow but you know the European
handball way through somethingand I really enjoyed getting to
love that.
I think it was really the teamsport.
You know part of it andeverybody finding their role and
their strength in the team andhow you play together and kind
of leading that and through thatalso being engaged in anything
from scouting to everything thatwas really in our little

(09:42):
village to do.
I've been trying it all.
But so I think that's myupbringing and then as I grew up
, moving to the university asmore or less the far away I
could from me on my small townjust to see, kind of start
seeing the world and I guess therest is history.

Klara (09:57):
I love the variety in sports too, so it seems like
running was one that you enjoyedquite a bit when you were young
, and I know even actually whenwe met and you lived in Jersey,
you were running some 10K andeven perhaps training for half a
marathon.

Jeanette (10:12):
Yes, I didn't get further in that, I'm not crazy
enough for that, but I got tothe half marathon.

Klara (10:18):
I didn't even do the half marathon, I stopped.
Actually, I say my feet are nowworn out, so I saved them for
once.
A week running on the court.
That's about all they canhandle.
I actually got one of the coldplunges that you guys have
naturally in Sweden and it'smore common that people do.
The sun and cold plunge Worksactually fantastic for my feet

(10:39):
and recovering my feet, yeah.
But I'm not much of a runneranymore.
I used to be, yeah, and I giveskiing, so you ski, you're an
avid skier.

Jeanette (10:48):
I'm skiing, but I think then again, coming back to
kind of map bringing, I'm anoutdoorsy person.
It might be Swedish and you'refar out in the woods, so for me,
the natural environment whereyou go and you don't decompress
or get strength, for me it's thewoods.
I would walk in, out in thewoods or even in other lakes.
It's always about beingoutdoors and the finding sports

(11:10):
where you get that opportunityto go outdoors is a must for me
because I need to get thatdisconnect, that freshness,
fresh air or whatever.
That is where you just let yourthoughts roam and just be out.
So after the winter it isdownhill skiing as something I
really do love, which has beenthis appointment in the Toronto

(11:34):
winter this year we have hadvery warm winter, so has been
less of that running, simplybecause not so much because I
really enjoy it, if I admit it,but because it may not it does
help me and you can do itanywhere.
So when you're traveling,everyone has to find their
outlet and whatever works withyour life, take that and then
I'm not as strong as you are,but I do go to the gym because I

(11:56):
do believe that there's thisstrength and heart.
You need to do both kind ofmuscles and cardio.
Let's just put it that way.
I don't lift as much as you do,but I do a little bit.

Klara (12:07):
Well, I started lifting more because I couldn't run as
much, so I had to find a newhobby.
I always say injuries make youuncover new sports, because
suddenly you realize, oh I can'treally do this and what do I
fill up my day with and feellike I can progress, and
actually that's good in liftingbecause I second lifting tennis
players are some of the worstlifters ever, so I had to learn

(12:30):
from the ground up of how tolift heavyweight.
So it's something I'm stillstuck at.
When you look at actually myframe and my body weight and
don't lift much weight, it justlooks better on videos than the
weight probably is, but it'sheavy enough for me, and so I
always find it's important tocreate variety and have change

(12:50):
in life, especially as weuncover injuries.
So I just want to commend youon adding lifting, because I
think that's something thatespecially women underestimate
quite a bit and because of theaging not that you would age,
you look amazing.

Jeanette (13:04):
No, but it is with aging.
I mean I don't take it like,don't worry, I'm fully embracing
where I am in life, with allthe challenges that might be,
and it's absolutely with my agelike it becomes more important.
But that's I mean we all needto recognize who we are and
where we are in life and helpyourself the best you can.
Appreciate also that you gotthe life with them in there

(13:27):
without even trying to.
When you said, like if I'mhaving an injury, I actually try
to do something new.
So you know, when the doorcloses, another one opens and I
mean and really see that way notjust that you're losing
something, but you actually arediscovering something new that
you might not have otherwisehave tried.
So you know, I agree with you,that's a very good way of seeing
it.

Klara (13:47):
Thank you.
Well, it's haven't come withouta lot of resistance to injuries
and suddenly I realized, youknow, beating my head over the
wall doesn't really help.
I might as well try to create anew door.
Oh, that's good, yeah.
And so going more into businessand technology.
Obviously, ericsson is anamazing brand, especially in

(14:08):
Sweden.
Actually, I left coming to sortof the mothership.
When you come to the airport italmost seems like your home is
like Ericsson's everywhere.
I guess, from even just brandrecognition, it makes sense that
it will be a fantastic companyto work for.
But what was your journey?
And you have this beautifulconvergence of being a business

(14:30):
minded leader with understandingof technology.
How was that path and journeyfor you?

Jeanette (14:35):
So I don't think that my journey is a typical Swedish
journey into Ericsson, but I'llstart with, probably then,
what's my more of a driver,because most people you will
speak to will say that they comefrom the technology space,
which I did not.
I came from the business spaceand I know already.
When I was a kid my momremembers and she loves to

(14:56):
remind me that that I was kindof picking flowers around in the
gardens and then I went andsold that to my elderly
neighbors as small bouquets.
Now we're talking about fiveyears old, so I guess I grew up
in a way of always wanting to dosomething and getting things
done.
And then, as I grew up, as soonas you could get to work, I've

(15:17):
always had all these odd jobs.
I've been doing this like a7-Eleven.
I've been doing elderly care,I've been cleaning.
I'll be standing insupermarkets, I've been selling
clothes, I've been handing acheese market out on it, like I
mean, like all kind of odd jobsI've.
You know, I've probably namedit and I've probably had it.
So I've always enjoyed workingand also, especially then I

(15:40):
realized working with twodifferent aspects of one is
drive business and drive valuefor whatever customers if they
are coming and trying to find anew suit for their sister's
wedding or if it's you know,something else is driving them.
But that conversation arounddoing business and doing good
business that actually bothparties enjoy, that's I realized

(16:01):
quickly.
I really enjoy that.
And then also there's somethingaround that service, that
people interaction, of findingthat you do something that are
value.
But then I also wanted to gobeyond maybe what we would call
fast moving, consuming goods.
That's kind of that every day,but something that drives a
change, something where you feellike you're influencing where

(16:22):
we're heading or what's going on, or the next generation or
something that's there to me isaround sustainability and how
can we affect the, make, youknow, the world actually better
place.
So you know, of course, entertechnology because if you look
at the tools we have, it's verymuch around the technology space
and that is going to be a primedriver for more or less

(16:43):
everything we do in society.
So when I got the opportunityto join the area, I came from a
business and law.
Those were my degrees and youknow what I brought in and then
I had to model started.
I always cut the thirdeducation.
I had to kind of go on telecoms, one on wow and just start
learning again.
And then I learned technology.

(17:05):
If you look at my peers andcolleagues in the company, we
have so many amazing experts andthis is probably why I'm here.
I wasn't 25 years later.
I just thrive on the smartnessthat I see in the company.
But I brought another aspect andkind of bringing that together
and that's always been my roleand that's really why I enjoy it
.
So when you ask you know whyand why here still after all

(17:27):
these years, it's really thatthat I get to really bring that
together and it's been in somany different parts of our
industry so it's been a typicalnetwork type of business but
also been on the device side Imean more on consumer research.
So there's so many aspects andperspectives on this, how we
drive it, that I've been able toengage in.

(17:48):
So I've always thought I'llhave you know a couple of years
and then I probably move onbecause you know what can I do
after that.
And somehow I just remained.
So that was really not theintention.
If I, you know, put it's ablunt, but here I am and that's
still why I'm here.

Klara (18:06):
I love hearing you describing it.
That really comes comes veryauthentic.
And what comes to mind when Ihear you say there's also this
reinvention that stands out tome about you because, as you
mentioned, every role you've hadat Ericsson, it seems like, was
different than the previous one, and so Ericsson is such a huge

(18:27):
company and obviously now we'reEricsson I've still talked
about we.
Okay, I'm not at Ericssonanymore.

Jeanette (18:33):
I think I'll work there for too long.

Klara (18:35):
I appreciate it.
I appreciate it.

Jeanette (18:37):
Thank you.

Klara (18:38):
And Ericsson is not in device anymore.
There was a Sony Ericssonventure right there where
fantastic phones I did have oneof my first ones was the Sony
Ericsson and people stillremember that often but there's
many different groups and itseems like your versatility
through had your career andprobably related to curiosity

(18:59):
and learning, kind of helped youpush yourself out of the
comfort zone and try somethingnew to where you're now at
amazing position.
I do want to highlightPresident Situ, jeanette, if
there is a petition for theEricsson CEO, I'll sign it and I
know many people would as well.
I think your attributes ofleaderships are fantastic, but

(19:23):
it's not supposed to becompliment.
I mean it is, but it's areality.
I don't say things anymore thatI truly don't mean, and so when
you look at your career, maybeeven I'll take you back.
You started at Ericsson as acontract manager for the Nordics
and Baltic regions, which was areally exciting time.
3g and building out 3G networksright, that's where a lot of

(19:46):
growths have happened in telecom.
And you close the first 3G dealin Nordics, building one of
your first 3G networks in all ofSweden, and first on network,
which is very complex, actuallyco-ownership for anybody who
understands Telco, between thetwo competing operators, telya

(20:08):
and Telethu.
And so, if you look at that andtheir reinvention to where you
at now, what are some of the keyaspects you would want to
highlight about your roles thatyou perhaps really found
enjoyable and things that you'velearned oh, this is actually
super fun and maybe even thingsthat didn't come as naturally to

(20:30):
you, that you had to perhapslearn their harder way.

Jeanette (20:33):
Those are so many things at the same time, so you
guide me if I get stuck onsomething, and I would say that
it was early on.
I had leaders that had theconfidence in throwing me into
things that I didn't know, butthey were kind of there to pick
me up if I needed it.
So I think that just knowingthat you had that support and

(20:54):
early on and being unafraid, Imean I still have that.
What is the worst thing?
I mean I know I'm never goingto do something that is
unethical.
So the worst thing that canhappen to me is that I get fired
, and if I get fired I'll find anew job.
It's just what's the worstthings that can happen to you if
you stand up for something youthink is right and you do what
you need to do for whatever thatis.

(21:16):
So sometimes you need to justput things in perspective and
think about that, and I thinkthat there's different ways of
now.
Maybe I'm not answering yourquestion, I'm going sideways
here.
Then you just pull me back.
But there's something about howyou think about a career and
often I struggle with meetingespecially, I think, north
American young people, becausethey're so determined and they

(21:37):
have such ambitions and theyalready can put in words.
There are those ambitions ofwhether they're heading and I
come and you know, I'm like 50years old and I can still not
put it in words and I'm like Ihave no idea how they do it and
I certainly didn't do that there.
It's like how do you, how canyou be so certain of all these
things that you want and whereyou're going?
So I think then it becomesmaybe more easier for me.

(21:59):
It wasn't that way.
I'm more learned where I, whereI enjoyed myself, what I thought
was fun, and that was very muchlike I said creating new
business, driving value, findingwhere I was thinking, okay, I
can make impact, I'll make achange here, I can add something
.
And then I drive and reallylearning new things, which means

(22:19):
that I have always I don't knowif I want to recommend this to
anyone, but I've always taken onjobs where I don't really know
it, like I'm really not certainabout this thing and I am really
uncomfortable, and some jobshave been like really pushing it
.
Getting this job was absolutelypushing it, cause I was like

(22:41):
what do I do now?
And it was in the midst of theCOVID.
I was sitting in Texas and Iwas starting to lead a Canadian
organization which is like howdo you do that?
I had been in sales andmarketing and all these roles
and then a leader entrusted meto take an operational role
which meant that I was going tostart building networks.

(23:01):
I had a part at.
I drive in a car, blue color,people were, you know, at
climbing towers.
I know nothing about it andstill I went out to do it and I
think it's about what drives you.
I really want to understand someas much as possible about what
we do and really know, becausewhen you do, you can show much

(23:24):
higher respect to all of thesedifferent aspects and the trades
that are going on in thecompany and you can be a better
leader.
I don't need to know exactlyhow a certain product is
developed or how somebody'soperating a certain system.
It's okay if I don't, but Iunderstand the complexity of
their world, which means I canhelp them do their jobs,

(23:47):
hopefully, in a better way andcontinue to be better, and we
can all kind of be bettertogether.
So I think it's like thatconstant canyons and being okay
with being fully uncomfortablein something and knowing you are
not the best, probably even theworst in the team on something,
and they have to kind of teachyou and then trust that somebody

(24:09):
will help you and teach you.
So just to prove my point inthis, I felt that in my role now
I'm continuing to try to learnthings, obviously, but often you
know it also becomesintellectual.
So back to what you said aboutsports etc.
So I'm like I really need topush myself in being more
uncomfortable.
So you know between you and mewhat I did I started dancing.

(24:32):
So here I am dancing and I'mtrying to dance like the Buchada
and all these kind of thingsand, like Shania Twain, these
hips are not lying, my arms arenot lying, they will not move,
it is not happening Like.
It's like so uncomfortable forme, but I'm like I need to be
comfortable being uncomfortableand also knowing that so many

(24:53):
people around me, when I'mthrowing out ask or I don't
think people to do things.
We're all kind of in thatenvironment continuous, and
especially in an industry likethis that is changing so fast
and we never really know what'scoming our way then we all we
know is that a year from now ourbusiness looks different.
We just continuously need to becomfortable with that
uncertainty, etc.
So I think that that's maybewhat's been driving me is really

(25:15):
I really love to learningthings and push and be better
and kind of get there.
So I've had the breath.
Others might be going much moreinto depth.
I don't have enough patiencefor that.
That would never work for meand I know that.
So it's depending on who you are, where do you thrive and how do
you learn and what really makesyou tick and drive.

(25:35):
That's the way you look at yourcareer.
But if you ask me, like did Ihave a plan of going for a
certain role?
Like just closing that firstcontract in 3G, you having two
competitors fighting over them,trying negotiate and close a
deal, no, but I realized I lovedit.
I loved the negotiation part.
I thought it was the most funthing ever and, you know,

(25:57):
getting to a final point whereeverybody was happy like that
was, you know, fantastic.
So you need to kind of knowthis but then decide from there
and maybe not make yourdecisions or your plans
according to an organization ora title or I don't know whatever
, because those are justtemporary, always temporary.

(26:18):
But think about what you get todo and what you learn and how
you contribute.
I think that's much moreimportant.

Klara (26:26):
You touched on several things in your description.
Now that I had written down andI actually want to tie them to
some of my secret helpers thatshared amazing tips.
I can totally understandstepping into such a big role.
I mean COVID for anyone wasthreatening enough and now
people are worried across boardfor not even obviously their

(26:50):
jobs, economy and being able tohave their livelihood, but their
health and health of theirloved ones.
And, at least from my view,you've been always very hands-on
or kind of personal leader.
You actually like to what Imean by that.
You like to meet your team andyou like to really get to know
them, who they are, and so oneof my friends you actually may

(27:14):
know she said I can share hername with sell.
So you've been so amazingduring the COVID times,
especially like balancing theCOVID economic shift, remote
teams, which is so hard tocreate this good impact and bond
over virtual calls.
I still love meeting people.

(27:34):
3d in like the real version.
I don't think anything canreally fully replace it.
Let's see if the ARVR will doits justice with the even Apple
vision for all new glasses andspatial computing.
How do you balance that?
I do see that as your strengthand even tying on your muta
cultural perspective and whatyou have this taking people as

(27:59):
individuals for kind of who theyare and where they come from,
but being able to inspire themto even stretch themselves
beyond their comfort zone.
There was another of your.
Your direct reports shared withme some amazing insights about
your intuitive net.
Has it been something that youhad to train or do you think,

(28:21):
throughout a lot of the culturalupbringing that you have had,
it came quite naturally to you?

Jeanette (28:26):
Firstly, of course, thank you for those kind words.
The way I've been brought up isreally that I'm not limited in
any way.
Maybe in behavior, certain waysyou need to behave, maybe, and
respect others, and all of thosethings which I think are very
sound values.
But there's never been a limitto what I can or cannot do or

(28:48):
what I should or should not dothat would have a content like a
cultural context or a gendercontext or any of that.
I've never had that.
So for me those limits don'texist.
So if I just put that away tobegin with, then when I meet the
person there, you will have afew.
Of course there will beexceptions, but I would say the

(29:10):
majority of people I always meetalways underestimate how much
and what they can do, how goodthey are, what they can achieve,
what they can bring to aconversation, what they just
bring by being themselves.
Almost everyone underestimatesthat and that for me is always
so interesting when I meet them.

(29:31):
So this thing about bringingout what's best in people,
that's, you know, obviously oneof the absolute best part being
a people either.
That's why I mean this is thebest part of my job.
But then I think there'ssomething else.
It's something around, and youknow you brought up with a
golden rule, so always thinkabout how you treat others.

(29:53):
Treat others as you want to betreated yourself, and I fully
subscribe to it.
But I think that there's more tosay to that, and so I think
that I'm applying the goldenrule with a twist, and my twist
is that I believe that you needto treat every person you meet
the way they need to be treated.

(30:13):
And for me, that is when I meetyou, clara, how I know you, so I
kind of know it's easier.
But if I meet somebody else withother needs, depending on where
they are in their lives, we allcome with so much history and
at that specific point in lifeyou're probably having so much
with you.
So it's about how do you takethat person for where they are

(30:34):
right now, with all thechallenges, all the duties and
everything that's in them, andkind of make the best for them.
And it's not about what I wouldhave done, because that does,
at least in general, like well,I would have done and have a
long list of things I could tell.
But that's not the point.
The point is not what I wouldhave done or who I am.
It's like, how do you take thisperson and just let them

(30:56):
elevate when you have thatmeeting with somebody, it's just
that, that opportunity to seethat person flourish and go
somewhere else, that I justthat's for me pure beauty and
love it and you're so good at itI guess even highlight even now
what I have felt.

Klara (31:14):
Your presence and this is another comment that came from
my friends, helpers, sending memany different emails you're so
good as a leader to payingattention to that scenario, team
, individual, kind of, whateversetting you're at, and your
presence is always so strong andso fell that I know actually

(31:34):
many times, when we had evenmentorship meetings, I felt so
bad after because I just keptgoing on and you just kind of
let me keep going.
I think you, you were 30minutes late for just another
meeting and but how do youpractice that?
Or has that been a skill thathas been born in you would say
again, through your upbringing,or you have worked on refining

(31:55):
through?
How do you career?

Jeanette (31:59):
I don't know.
I wish I had a smaller answer.
I really don't know.
I think the pure interest and myabsolutely ground belief is
that people are good and peoplewant to do good and they want to
do better, sometimes to mydetriment.
I come from a place of trust.
If I meet a person, I justassume anyone in my was and
they're here because they'resmart, they are learned a lot,

(32:22):
they have had to provethemselves a lot like there's,
like they have all these things,they're all the qualifications
for everything.
So then it's just like allowingthem to kind of continue that
path.
So I think like that for me iskind of the basics.
That's where I come from.
But then I think that the holderyou get and the more you can
put your ego to the side or youknow, you can let things go, the

(32:46):
easier it is to let others comeforward or help them, etc.
I mean, I've been doing allthese things, I've had this
fantastic experience.
I, you know, now it's for me isto find the next ones that are
coming in.
Those are 20 years young and menow I'm like, guys, now you
need to come and take over, likethat's my job, that's more my

(33:07):
job than anything else.
So I think it's a little bit ofage and experience.
I think you know it gets easier, but I mean from the beginning
it has to be somehow, I guess,an interest and our people and
you know, just as much as I'mcurious in learning for my own
sake, I guess I'm just ascurious about people and that

(33:29):
might come from that I'm alwaysbeen mixing cultures and people
and traveled.
You know I traveled during mywhole my whole the university
years.
My kids always make fun of mebecause I maxed out my years at
university but it was oftenbecause I started double and
then I traveled is it my turn?
And then I started double again, just just to try to get in so

(33:49):
many trips as possible in it,just to go out and you know and
see and experience that.
So I think that's maybe thebasics of it, but then there's
no specific.
I wish I said trick orsomething.
I even thought about that.
I'm doing.
It is that's probably just meit is you.

Klara (34:09):
Actually, I have to say it's from my experience in
working on teams under manydifferent leaders.
This quality is just muchdifferent for you than some of
the other leaders I have workedunder.
Not to be sexist, but I have tobring this up because I do find

(34:30):
that the scale seems to be morecommon for at least some of the
women leaders I have seen or Ihave worked under, and so at
Ericsson there actually haven'tbeen that many, so being
privileged to see and experienceyour leadership meant a lot.
And then I've seen kind of justwhole other variety at Apple.
That looks very different, butI find this more common with

(34:53):
some of the strong women leaderswe're able to step into almost
like more different leadershipstyles and variety of leadership
styles.
Then perhaps some of the manleaders have seen and observe, I
think you're probably right,and I think it's.

Jeanette (35:10):
It's not because women or men are better leaders or
for different reasons, but Ithink there's something to be
said about the context, how wegrow up and I think that is we
are, and at least maybe mygeneration and like we're
brought up in certain type ofcontext, and how the typical
behaviors are and what they are,and it allows us, if we dare to

(35:33):
, as women or as men, like itallows us different spectras,
probably as well, to how we canact.
So as a woman, I can be maybe alot of things that a man is not
typically supposed to be or canallow himself.
So the the the spectrum of howyou can behave or act in your

(35:53):
leadership looks a bit different.
I think.
I think it is changing.
If I look at young internationalas we're coming up, but I think
that as we grew up, that waskind of it.
So a man who is my like, awhite, middle-aged man, you know
, I they probably are, you know,supposed to be in a certain way
, like they feel that there arealso certain expectations, while

(36:15):
I have more freedom in certainaspects, while there are other
limitations I absolutely have.
So I think it's something thereas well, that we could have
many more men that could bethere, but it's not really how
it's been and or even how we'vebeen raised, and I think we'll
probably see maybe a changethere, as we're seeing change in
leadership overall, mm-hmm andjust to tie on one more that I

(36:41):
find you do fantastic, and againit relates to this ability to
stretch, to different types ofleaderships.

Klara (36:48):
Understand, even at Ericsson, and some of the things
I had to learn a lot is how doI become a different type of
leader?
And I know being part of a lotof even just the women group or
really whichever group they are.
Most of these groups we feellike there are some things that
we're not being valued enough orwe want more opportunities for
progress.
So if you look at Echor's theboard, actually the problems are

(37:10):
the same no matter which groupyou're part of.
But one of the things,especially for women and what
seems to be a mob, and even Istruck with it myself is like
there's this type of person andthis is not me which I kind of
disagree.
I think it's a lot of applyingskill set and so sorry that's a

(37:32):
long-winded lead.
But to say, one of the thingsthat I really appreciate about
you that helped me understand isyour calmness under pressure
and never being emotionally sortof out of control.
And so me, being from a familyI'm Czech ever my listeners know
that, but I would say my Czechfamily was almost like Italians.

(37:53):
It was always just wild, likethere's you know chair being
thrown out of the windows atsome points of my you know live
with that was just totally fine.
So I've always grown up arounda lot of type of drama, sort of
argue, and so if you see thathappening in your upbringing it
wires you a certain way, and soseeing your steady women

(38:17):
leadership that is stillfeminine, but being able to step
into this direct, confident andassertive leader when you have
to you, was so game-changing forme and it's I don't want to say
I have it down, I'm practicingof how to get there and when to
get there.
But how was that skill for you,and is that something that you

(38:42):
had to refine or specificinstances that helped you
understand how and when to stepinto those type of shoes, to be
more direct and assertive inthose conversations and don't
let your emotions escalate whenI was at university.

Jeanette (38:58):
It was a business course and one of the things we
got was to look at commercialsand ads and then we would
supposed to be doing this groupwork around and present.
Was it a good or a bad one, soto say, and why why not?
So we got the one, and pleasedo not laugh now, but we got the

(39:18):
Swedish bikini team in the USabout beer.
So now I'm aging myself, Iguess, because that was the case
and you know we went into thisand we were like looking at it
and we had all our arguments butwhy this was a terrible
commercial and they don't thegoods and the baths, the ethics,
more like all of those thingsand went into presenting this

(39:39):
and had a discussion and we wereabsolutely killed in all our
reasoning, in our ways ofpresenting it, etc.
In our argumentation, and notbecause we were wrong, because
in the end everybody, like oncewe were done like that, like
you're actually right, this isterrible thing and for all the
reasons we had, but the way wewent to it and the way we

(40:00):
approached this was emotionalmm-hmm it was not objectively,
it was not with, you know, somekind of facts and base on what
we were doing and the why, thewrongs or however.
We went into it emotionally andalso assuming that everybody
felt, as we did, kind of motionLee about it, and now in that

(40:22):
room more or less everyone did.
But it doesn't mean thateverybody in the world would do
that, or in the US or whatevermarket I would be or whatever,
because in that culture contextmaybe that would have been okay.
I don't know.
But it was such a pivot topoint in my mind, like, as much
as I believe something is fairor unfair, the way I go about it

(40:43):
and the way I have to presentit has to be an objective truth
for whoever is the reader.
So it's always about youraudience, it's always about what
you want to achieve.
So if I take you back to when Ido at work and if I need to
achieve something, if I'm inthis business presence and I'm
having what I would say someCrazy augmentation back at me or

(41:04):
people are all over the place,I'll just absorb, I'll take it,
but I'm not going to lose focuson what is it that I need to
achieve and where am I going?
And then I take it, absorb itsome of it.
I just like, okay, whatever,and I just leave it.
It doesn't bother me because Iknow where I need to go and I
take, and I just need to takepeople to that place.

(41:26):
So my job as a leader and wehave this brain is psychology
student in Sweden.
Anna Tobelius is great and oneof the things is like you always
have to be the safest person inthe room and I think that's a
fantastic expression and that'smy job.
My job is not just there tohand out money or make decisions

(41:46):
or like all that as well, butit is very much, especially when
it is crisis, when there is alot of emotions or a lot of
uncertainties.
It could be in that at the end,you just pause the conversation
and you leave it and you comeback and you take it again,
because sometimes you just needto get everything to.
You know all the feelings, howto kind of go home, sleep on it,

(42:07):
and then we come back and youknow sometimes that's it and
just make a no decision, but fora good reason.
That's my job is to be thatperson in that room and my job
is to look at.
Where are we having?
Where do we need to go and whatdo we need?
Who are the people I need toget with me?
Who are the people who need tounderstand this?
The whole noise of emotions andall these other things.

(42:27):
I don't have the luxury to carefor that because that's not
going to take us to where wewant.
So I think from that point ofview I guess you know that's
probably perceived calm For me,it's very determined and very
focused for what I want to do,and you also need to have in
mind that when you do this, it'svery easy to leave a lot of

(42:49):
casualties.
So I think that's.
Another part for me is thatwhen you do it this way, you
need to be extremely respectfulof listening to people and I say
you know, thank you, I hear youat this point I will not bring
that in or we will have to leavethis here at the side.
We can revisit it, but you needto respectful as well, because

(43:09):
there are emotions, so you needto kind of bring that in and let
them be there.
Sometimes you just need to havea blowout and people like you,
they just need to get it out ofthe system and that's OK.
Like I totally get it.
Like you know, like I haveteenagers, I know that it's OK
and then you kind of, ok, fairenough, and then you have to
address the situations thatneeds to be handled.
So it's not my intention not toseem like I don't care of

(43:36):
people's emotions or notacknowledging that it's all
there.
But I also understand that itdoesn't help anyone anyone if I
engage in it.
So I simply want and we reallyhad one of our previous job in
the team we had our slogan orlike tagline whenever there were
so much things going on and Ijust like we don't do drama.

(44:00):
So when everything's happenedwe just look at each other and
it's like we don't do drama andit just went away, because
sometimes you don't realize thatyou're getting into it.
So that was maybe a long andwinding answer to your question
and reasoning that I thinkthat's, you know, for me a very

(44:21):
pragmatic way as well ofaddressing everything that's
going on.
That I think it's been mostbeneficial for me and usually
works well for me.

Klara (44:33):
But so many things you have shared, definitely observe
that.
It almost reminds me like whenI think about it during these
conversations or instances belike water, and that's what you
kind of mentioned water, justobserve everything and let it
kind of float with it.
And you have to float outBecause if you start, as you
mentioned, participating indrama, it just always escalate

(44:54):
like there's no other way todeal.
Escalate drama.
I don't like walk away anddon't participate in drama.
So one of the other things thatI always think about panic.
When everybody else ispanicking, the best thing that
we can do is not panic and justbe calm and everybody else will
sort of feel the energy.

(45:15):
Even I guess this relates to meand just to explain from tennis
court how I tied it back Becauseeven in tennis, when there's
two people on the court, evenfor people who are spectators,
you typically sense in the bodylanguage like who's up and
winning.
Even from the screen you canactually see the energy.
It's one of the things that isvery transferable for people and
the human eye sort of catches.

(45:37):
And so that's why sometimeseven people say body language,
like when you're on the courtcompeting, even if you don't
believe in yourself.
Sometimes I have to remindmyself the other person doesn't
know what I'm thinking.
As far as my body language isstill intact and I'm pretending
I'm confident, it's fine.
That's what they think andthat's what I need them to think

(45:57):
.
So that's all that.
I guess how I rewired and triedto think about the aspect that
I need to take into importantmeetings or meetings that I
foresee could be a lot ofconflict, and thank you again
for the inspiration on that,jeanette.

Jeanette (46:12):
Maybe just to I was just going to say it's a little
bit of the strength that you'reshowing there is to take
adversity and just absorb it andlet it go, because every day
there's going to be a thousandthings that doesn't go the way I
wanted it to go, like you justhave to deal with it.
Okay, just take it on, whatdoes that mean?
And then you move on, absorb it, let it go and then you move on

(46:34):
, because there's going tocontinuously be things that
you're not winning that game.
It's going to be something.
You're going to hurt yourself,we're going to step wrong and
that's going to happen.
So still carrying your body isstill feel strong.
That is quite important to ifyou're going to endure any of
these type of jobs, like we have.

Klara (46:52):
Yeah, so tying on your leadership principles, maybe it
could be a good sequence,because you shared one.
We don't do drama.
Do you have any specificleadership principles that you
share with your teams?
Or you have guttered again, asyou shared some of the learnings
and observations you've hadthroughout your career, that you
care with you and you typicallywant your team to know?

(47:15):
This is how I work, this is howI operate or this is how we
should think about doing things.

Jeanette (47:21):
There's so many different things.
I think there's something aboutfairness how you treat people.
Always treat people in the sameway, like no matter whoever
they are in the company,whatever role they're doing,
their contribution is just asimportant.
So you're always having thatfairness around people and I

(47:41):
guess that's maybe the quality.
We talked a little bit before,like about the quality of people
.
Good people always come back toyou.
Here we are sitting, even ifyou tried to move as far away as
possible, and still here youare.
Good people come back to you,but people in general.
So treat people with respect,because they will certainly.

(48:02):
People are back in life.
There's something around karma.
I'm not a Buddhist, etc.
But there's something aroundkarma.
So you do treat people in acertain way and I expect
everybody around me to beextremely respectful to each
other, even when they disagree.
That's okay, they can disagreeall day long, but they are
respectful and they are going tobe professional to each other

(48:23):
and I expect everyone to be thatin whatever circumstances.
That is, and simply also comingback to that, we all carry our
own history and put our owndifferent backgrounds.
So, especially here in Canada,where we have an extreme
diversity, you need to make surethat you really are taking care
of that and being that person,I have some strong

(48:45):
fundamentalism, a little bitabout discipline.
When it comes to respect, it'salso about being respectful of
doing what is expected from youand doing it in time and quality
, because others are dependenton you.
So how do you ensure that youactually help others and allow
others to be in collaboration?
Because in the end, it's a team, so if I'm not doing my part,
then it quickly starts fallingapart the weakest in the link in

(49:09):
the chain.
There's a lot to be said.
I think about that and dependson context.
I probably highlight differentthings.

Klara (49:16):
Yeah, and I think I can talk about you and leadership
forever and we only have limitedtime, so I do also want to
transfer a little bit more totechnology, because that's
another I sense we'reundermining.
We have strong women in techand sometimes we tend to
marginalize ourselves on justsome portion of how to manage

(49:38):
our career and leadership.
And so you have such an amazingview into Telcom.
The Telcom as an industry hasbeen under tremendous pressure
for solar years, includingobviously because of the
business economic downturnglobally overall, and now
actually there's becoming a 6Ghype.
So I'm actually curious aboutyour view of the industry.

(50:01):
What is the reality you'reseeing?

Jeanette (50:04):
When things are changing and when they change
fast, you know we all get verynervous Because the carousel is
moving faster and faster.
Do I hold on?
Do I get off?
How do I survive this?
You know another ride, but it'sin the DNA of the whole
engineering culture of findingnew problems to solve in new

(50:24):
ways.
You know that's the challengeof it.
So I think that we are in theindustry that is changing very
much, but it's been changing thewhole time.
We always say that the changehas never been as fast as now
and I'm like, yeah, well, we canrepeat that every month because
that's kind of how it feels.
It's not for the faint of heartto work in this industry by all

(50:44):
means.
And I do believe that we willsee a continuous change into if
knowledge will be opening up andmore.
We talk about more of a moreopen type of systems and
architectures.
And, yes, we will absolutelysee.
There we will see newstakeholders and we will see all
ones disappear, as we've beenseeing over and over the years.

(51:06):
I mean, that's how ourcompetitive landscape is
changing and that will continueto be so.
We are seeing new technologiesbeing introduced.
Of course, now the world is allabout AI and how is that going
to change our business and thetechnology and what we do?
And of course it will.
I think it will both go fasterand slower than we expect in

(51:28):
certain ways.
From a bigger sense, maybe gofaster, but in the smaller sense
, like how do we get it and howdo we use it to the benefit of
all that in our products and allour systems?
How do we avoid the biases?
How do we build organizationsto actually understand what
they're doing?
All of that is going to taketime.
At the same time, we will seeall of this, all these things

(51:48):
happening and what you canactually do with it.
Some of these changes were seenand come, but there needs to be
critical mass of competencethat knows what to do with it
before it becomes prevalent, andwe are far away from that.
So I think there will be asmuch as somebody like me are
dabbling with trying to figureout what AI in general is and I

(52:08):
can use.
I mean, it's going to be in thenew generation growing up.
Like you know, talk to my kidsor teenagers.
To them it's natural, it's apart of how they study or how
they do something or how theywork.
It's just there, it's natural.
So we will see that that willalso happen, but it takes some
time.
So I think that's the beauty ofbeing in an industry like ours

(52:33):
that what we do is sofundamental of how we as a
community not like operators andvendors, but as a community how
we function.
Communication is a basic humanneed.
I mean, I know that's anair-sum tag, but for me that's
really how it is.
It is no matter what we say.

(52:53):
And then the way we communicatehas changed over time.
Now we're not using the drumsor don't have smoke signals, but
it's a long way.
But there's continuous changeand that will continue changing.
We will be part of it.
But you continuously need tohave smart people that are in
the fore from driving thattechnology, making use of that
technology, knowing how tooperate it, how to turn it

(53:16):
around into something that wecan use, and I know that's.
You know more where you're atthan kind of that last user
interface in front of thecustomer.
What are the devices, what areall those things?
How do we take it out?
But I see that this industry isprobably going through a change
, but it's somewhat not more norless than all the changes we've

(53:38):
seen so far, but just becausewe're living it right now, it
feels so much bigger and so muchdifferent.
I think that we will.
We have much more to learn andsee before we know what's going
to be there, but I'm reallycurious what we're going to be
in five years If it went as fastor as slow, as you know, as
we're looking at it both at thesame time.
So there are some of the thingsthat are very much affecting us

(54:02):
, but in the end, this issomething that is here to stay,
and then everyone might lookdifferent, with different
stakeholders, absolutely, andthen that will continue to
change.
That's just the businessenvironment.
It's not.
That's business as usual.
But that's the beauty.
Why it's so much fun to be inthis industry is because we know
that we're making a change andyou know, and it's not you know

(54:24):
personally, but also you know,obviously, the society, and then
you know how do we driving, youknow good chains and making you
know the world maybe a betterplace.
Even so, you know it's hard notto be fascinated.
Yeah, on that note, anythingspecifically you want to call
out that you're personallyoptimistic about and this can be
technology or the gen AIconversions of the two or kind

(54:48):
of overall things that you'relooking at personally and you're
playing with I'm trying tolearn a little bit more on the
AI side, simply because my keythings that I'm such a I guess
dinosaur I don't know much aboutit, so you know I'm trying to
understand better there, but putthem particularly in
trade-a-bud is that it's so muchmore about what individuals can

(55:11):
learn and figure out on theirown.
It's like there are more andmore tools for the individual to
find new ways of developing andfinding new areas.
So we talk about open APIs andopening up networks.
You can actually pull out someof the capabilities and then you
will do your thing and you willfind a new use case.

(55:32):
You will find new areas and newways of using this network that
as maybe as a bigger company,as you're working on
infrastructure, you won't beable to see that or find that.
Also, the young generation is somuch more used to just going in
and doing it on their own.
They're not scared that they'regoing to break something.
They're just interested in whatthey will find.

(55:52):
So they will be pushing thelimits and finding all of these
things on their own.
So I believe there's so manythings that will not be driven
by a company as such or acompany in base, but rather it's
going to come from all theusers out there and that is
going to be very interesting tosee.

Klara (56:10):
So it seems like you're putting more and more power to
the user to figure out.
If you had this information,what can you create from it,
which I see the trend.
I still follow Telcom andEricsson, so understand the
bondage and some of theannouncements there, as well as
the cradle point and what youare guys doing actually overall
in the enterprise.

(56:30):
So it makes sense.
On the opposite side you have abig drop, so hopefully you sleep
well, but if there are somethings that are keeping you up
at night again, hopefullythere's not too many of them.
Are there specific things thatyou're most concerned about when
it comes to, again, thisconvergence of future technology
?
There's been a lot of talks ofthis leaving the Gen AI and the

(56:53):
threat of this technology, andthat it will replace and maybe
get rid of humans at some pointon its own, when it become fully
aware of us and want to takeover the world.
What's your vision?

Jeanette (57:06):
as I don't have that dystopian view of life and our
future really at this point, Ihave to say.
But I do understand the peoplewould be fearful on some of
these things, simply becausewhen you let loose some of the
tools in the world and you don'tknow where it can end, it's
scary and we've seen thatthrough history.

(57:26):
Alfred Nobel he invented thedynamite to create tunnels so we
could build betterinfrastructure and in the end,
here we were with bombs and itwas used in the war.
So of course, you can alwaysfind those examples of when
technology is out there to beused, it will always be misused
as well.
So, absolutely so I think thatif there's anything that keeps

(57:49):
me up is that how do weintroduce some of these areas
responsibly and how do we takeresponsibility on how we use
them and how it's done?
I do believe that we do try.
We had some examples here withsome of the bigger players
trying to counteract and workwith biases in the Google IIs

(58:10):
and others, and it didn't reallygo well.
So of course, there will beback classes people saying, well
, now you're trying to take ittoo far.
So I think we have a journey oflearning, of trying to figure
out how we do this in the bestway, and I think we need to
allow ourselves to have thatjourney.
When we introduce these tools,how do we usually do that in a
fair and good way, without thebiases and all the risks there?

(58:32):
So I think that's somethingthat we need to.
But it also be that this isalso the younger generation
that's so important, becausethey come in and they work with
it as a tool of creating goodthings.
If it's in their chemistryclass or they're discussing
biology or if it is somethingaround history and trying to

(58:53):
find the context, and they'reworking on it and they
critically examining whatthey're finding through these
tools.
For them it's different.
They use it as something, asit's not just something you add
on top of and then it becomes athreat that you don't have
control over.
It's something that is in theircontrol and how they use it.
So, as much as it keeps me alittle bit up at night that I'm

(59:16):
concerned that some of thesetools, we don't really know what
we're doing with it, I alsobelieve that there are there's
this what I've been told by thecritical mass of competence
coming as a genre that know, andthey really know how to deal
with it well and they arecomfortable with it.
But absolutely, I think thatthere is word of caution, but we
have gone through the industryone at a, two, three shifts from

(59:41):
machine to a person and we'regoing another shift now.
I'm sure that we as humanitywill survive this as well and
I'm sure we will find good waysof doing it.
And I actually do believe it'sabsolutely needed and we
absolutely need this to come inand help us, because we have a
population that is growing olderand older.

(01:00:03):
We will absolutely need, ifit's robots or any help we can
get in elderly care.
How do we take care of all thepeople that will be older and
they need to be taken care of?
There are just so many areaswhere I think that it's
absolutely necessary to get thisinto our.
You know, inter-assistance, theways of working and everything,
and we won't have enough peopleto do all these things.
So I think there's absolutelygoing to be a shift, or maybe

(01:00:26):
what kind of competences, jobs,all of that that will be
happening, but that's okay.
That's how we do shifts andthat's progression.
Of course, it's going to bepainful points, but it's still
progression and I often thinkabout it, like when I talk to my
kids about jobs that they wantto have.

(01:00:46):
When I grow up, like you know,you could be a lawyer, you could
do business, you could dodoctor, and like it was very
clear, like it was.
You know, this was the manyjobs you could get more, like
more or less.
And then you chose.
And when I talk to my kidstoday about what are they going
to be and what are theeducations, like I mean, it's
just like you know, it's abuffet of all these things and

(01:01:08):
all these things they want to do.
As you know, I have a daughterthat's very artistic.
If you were an artist, likewhen you were a kid, when I was
young, like you were just goingto be a poor artist at the best,
like that was not a pursuit youcould have.
And today, of course, you haveanimation, you have the movies,
you have all these amazingthings.

(01:01:30):
So it's like how can I evenguess what she's going to be?
And it's the same I see nowwhen we see all these other
shifts with all these new tookmodels coming.
It's going to open up so manynew areas of works and roles and
competent, all these thingsthat people can do.
It's going to be painful for usSome of us are a bit older,
that you know, have livedthrough a life with certain

(01:01:52):
competences, and it's a shift,but in the end I think it's
going to work out.
There's always, you know, alittle bit of pain in those
shifts, but you know it's goingto open up so many new things
that I can't even I wouldn'teven try to guess today what
that means.
I think that's why I say Isleep pretty well at night.
Yeah, I think that's good.

Klara (01:02:14):
We need sleep, especially as we grow older.
Not again that you would age Iage for sure.
So I do need to sleep more than, let's say, even in my 20s, or
I recognize that I get morearound.

Jeanette (01:02:27):
Can I push back to you ?
Sorry I'm interrupting you andbut I know that you're going to
soon tell me that we can't talkmore.
So you are a young, very strongfemale leader in everything you
do, even if it's direct orindirect, and you are a
fantastic role model.
I think for people around youthat you are also very daring on

(01:02:50):
taking on your roles and youjump on things and you learn new
.
So all the good things you havesaid to me, I think, during
this conversation, absolutelywant to just give that back to
you, that it is a joy to see youand see how you have flourished
and learned and dare to newthings and nonetheless doing
this, what you're doing rightnow, and going on an adventure

(01:03:12):
and just starting this up.
And now it's the month ofInternational Women's Day, it's
our month, so I'm going to claimus a little bit of a space here
, for you and me.
How do you see your future andours, and what can we do to make
it better for you and yoursalike?

Klara (01:03:32):
Wow, that's a good question.
I actually really believe thatthe biggest problems are always
in our own minds, like as women,we are our worst enemies often
and I speak from experience frommyself and actually even the

(01:03:54):
experience and you've personallyknow many of the experiences
that I've had, and it goes allthe way to my upbringing and
childhood I think the problemthat we have is actually we put
the problem in the context ofkind of what we call it, sex or
gender, and so actually, evenlooking back at my career, I've

(01:04:20):
created this sort of view of itas versus them, sometimes like
it's women versus men.
But then, like, looking back, Iwas absolutely not correct,
because I've had some amazingmen leaders and I've had some
not so great leaders, but it'salso because of, I would say,
statistics.
So if you apply just a fewstatistics, if you're on average

(01:04:42):
in an industry, that is, youwork mostly with men, you
unfortunately going to probablycome up to worse experiences
that really too many, justbecause you meet so many more,
and so this is even somethingthat we all have in our own
minds, and so one of the thingsis really just things I've been
personally practicing, and Iactually want to even suggest

(01:05:05):
listeners to go back to episodewith Eve I think she said it
even better than I would say butbeing confident in what we can
do.
Sometimes it's even just beingpresent.
The Amy Cuddy Ted Talk ifanybody listened to it is still
one of my favorite Ted Talks.
You actually said it in thispodcast not putting our own
boundaries in front of us andwhat we can and cannot achieve,

(01:05:28):
because some of the best resultswere literally things that I
could never think that I can do,including actually this podcast
.
I was terrified when I started,like the first episode took me
five months to lunch and now I'mlike, oh my God, I'm so excited
.
So anything is a skill and yousort of practice.
So try the things that scareyou, things that you have been
practicing actually in yourcareer, jeanette, and practice

(01:05:51):
being your advocate.
And the way to do that isreally be authentic and finding
things that are true to you andif you do it in the right way, I
think a lot of people willrealize that they're authentic
and they're true to you andthey're coming from the right
place and hopefully will thenhelp perhaps even join the

(01:06:11):
movement or be your cheerleadersbehind the closed door, when
nobody's there and you're not inthe room.
I think that's mostly what wewomen can do.
And I actually want to look atit from the other side because,
looking at my own journey, thatgeneration journey coming from a
super small village, just theprogress we women have made is

(01:06:32):
impressive.
My grandma run the whole family.
She was like a master homeeducator.
She raised like seven, eightkids, made sure everybody's fed.
Always people came theregathered.
She had scheduled for everybodyand remembered who has what.
My mom is a small businessowner, one of the most
successful women in the area welive in.

(01:06:52):
I run business globally and mysister is financing business in
some of the largest companiesthat we can ever dream of.
So if you just look at like thetrajectory of the four
generations of, like my grandma,from communist era to all the
way to my sister, on all thatshe will achieve, it's fantastic
and so maybe it's just morenaive.

(01:07:15):
But I think again it's more ofus throwing our own barriers in
front of ourselves.
But let me stop there, jeanette.
What do we want to add orchange?

I'm listening to you under.
There's so much to be said, sothis should be a separate part
of someone's own, I think.
But there is something I wantto address that maybe that I do
believe that some is overusedand we all often talk about the
imposter syndrome.
So, like I said, you come intothis room and you have this
feeling, oh, I'm probably notgood enough, I don't feel this

(01:07:50):
and we will get this, and Ireally don't believe in it.
I don't believe there is animposter syndrome in that sense,
because I have never met aperson and mostly women, let's
talk about it and I would saythat any underrepresented group

(01:08:13):
that comes into a room with allthese other that is not good
enough, not ready enough, is notbrave enough.
They would be in that roomotherwise, and because I know
it's so much harder for thatperson to be in that room than
for probably for everyone else.
So for me there's thatimposition.
That is something that we havebeen told that we are feeling

(01:08:34):
because we're not fitting in,but then I'm like, no, it's not,
it has nothing to do with thatperson.
It is then a systemic problem.
So then it's a problem ofinclusion.
So, as much as we talk aboutdiversity and that we need to
love everybody in there.
We need to include them.
Everybody needs to be feelincluded at their own merits, at

(01:08:57):
this, as who they are, thefully authentic Clara who's
coming in with all, all thethings she is, and when we do
that, there's really no impostersyndrome why would there be one
?
But it's something that wecontinuously are taught that
that's our problem.
So we need to be a little bitmore of this or that.

(01:09:18):
We need to lean in a little bitmore.
We need to speak up a littlebit more.
We need to.
I don't know whatever it is andI'm like, no, no, I don't think
so.
Well, I mean, each and everyonehas things to work on.
It might be that you need tospeak up a bit more, you need to
sound like everyone else hassomething to work on, but don't
don't be made to believe it'sbecause you don't fit in or you

(01:09:42):
shouldn't be there, or you arenot really there for whatever
reason.
Like that needs to go away,like anyone who feel that
they're in an unrepresentativegroup.
Here is gender.
You are part of it and we needto foster that inclusivity into
it.
We can't just say we're going tohave diversity and then we
don't include people and allowthem to be themselves without

(01:10:04):
them having to prove it, andthen we have to prove them
having to prove themselves in acertain context, in a certain
environment, then we haven'treally made no progress.
So I think it's like when youcome into that room next time
and if somebody said, oh, I'mfeeling very much impulsive
syndrome, which I have usedmyself just to work clear, I'm
going to be like why, why wouldI, why does that make anyone

(01:10:25):
feel like that?
That's one of the things I'mgoing to try to fight is that I
have women that use us, thatthey feel that, and I'm going to
say why.
And if that's the case, andthen if I can affect the
environment, then it's for me,then it's my problem.
It's not this whoever it isjoining the team is problem.

Klara (01:10:45):
That can be a whole other episode for imposter syndrome,
because I have very strongfeelings about it.
I didn't know what impostersyndrome is or was until more of
like the US academia pushed itinto my head and I feel like
it's being pushed on us women inall of the training, leadership
meetings, so much more and to apoint where everybody can

(01:11:06):
probably hear I'm frustratedabout it Because I think
everyone in their life at somepoint men and women included
have felt, have felt, incapableand lacking confidence, and the
reason is it doesn't even why Idon't know if, why even like
matters.
So what Like you feel likeyou're scared.
Just do it anyways.

(01:11:26):
I think that's how, again, youlearn and step into the next
step.
So going back practicing mightnot be emotional Well, I am.
So there's still some thingsthat really make me emotional.
Imposter syndrome is one of thethings that I'm still trying to
find way how to actually be onthe reverse side and don't push
it on women and so I love itTotally with you and actually,

(01:11:52):
on that, one of the things incomments that, again, one of my
helpers shared here is about howgreat you are with inviting
people to speak up and thisinclusiveness again that opening
the room where people arefeeling like they're being

(01:12:12):
accepted and appreciated.
Are there any tips you want toshare that leaders can take on?
A practice that you're awarethat you use, that have worked
the best for you?

Be present when you meet somebody.
I mean I don't fill in my phone.
If I do, I mean then I'm lost.
Like, be present when you havea person and you have them in
front of you and you have theirtime, make the most of it, not
just listening, but hear themand really understand what
you're doing.
I also come from a place ofbelief rather than disbelief.

(01:12:47):
So be kind, be generous to theperson that you meet them.
Just assume the best and allowthem maybe to grow from there,
because if you come from thatplace and people feel like
you're there to that you trustthem and that you're there to
help them and that you'reactually interested in what
they're saying, you will get thebest out of anyone.

(01:13:08):
So for me it's really.
But being just present andallowing that person you have in
front of you to be all that youare now focusing on listening
on, and they are the ones thatare most important for you at
this time.
That makes it so much easier,and that's really true, because
when you are interacting withsomebody, that's how it should

(01:13:31):
be.
If you are somewhere else, thenpolitely say sorry, I need to
do something different.
That's okay.
I mean that happens.
But when you are with somebody,treat them with all respect you
can and just make them be themost important person because
they are in that conversationyou have.

Klara (01:13:49):
I agree On that note.
We have about a minute beforeyou have to leave Anything else.
Jeanette, do you want to leavelisteners with?
I think that alone should be afantastic advice for anybody to
practice in 2024 and skill thatI feel like no matter how good
somebody can get, or even mepersonally, there's always a way
to improve.

(01:14:10):
But anything else you want toleave listeners with and maybe
what's the best way to followyou?
I know you have a LinkedInprofile, so I added your
permission to the episode notes,if that's okay, but anything
else you want to share?

Yes, linkedin is the best way.
I'll just take that one quickly, then you can always reach out.
Linkedin is probably the bestway.
I would just say that I thinkwe live in times that are very
divisive.
We focus a lot on what isdifferent, what is dividing us,
what is keeping us apart, ratherthan asking what is pulling us

(01:14:47):
together, what makes us one,what makes us human.
Solidarity is almost a word thatis hard to use without feeling
a little bit silly, but I thinkthose things are, more than ever
, important right now, with thetimes we're seeing.
We have a lot of election goingaround the world.
We will see a lot of changesand a lot of political

(01:15:09):
instability.
I think for us as people,really caring for each other and
being kind and making sure thatwe try to look at what is
bringing us together andoffering opportunities to bring
us together, I think will bemore important this year than it
ever has, and I think thatanything that you can do as a

(01:15:30):
person, if that's individuallyor for your team or in a bigger
way in your community, I thinkthat's really, if anything,
that's what I hope that peoplewill take the time to do this
year.

Klara (01:15:42):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much foryour time, jeanette, and just
being in touch and allowing meto check in with you.
You've guided me on my careerjourney many times and always
been there to provide yourperspective, which I truly value
and appreciate, and thank youagain for the conversation.

Thank you, Clara, and it is absolutely a privilege and
joy to be around you and followyour journey as well.
So thank you for having me Ilove it and for all of you.
Keep on listening to Clara, I'msure you will learn a lot more.
Take care.

Klara (01:16:42):
Thank you.

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Host

Klara Jagosova

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