74. James de Lacey︱Strength Training for Sports Performance, Injury Prevention and Longevity

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
James (00:00):
consistency wins over anything else.
There's so much shit going onpeople trying to optimize this,
that morning routines like no,like.
All that matters is consistency.
That's the only thing thatmatters.
With anything it can be dietingfor building muscle or losing
fat, it could be training forany of those, you can't have the
perfect training session.
You can't have the perfect diet.
You can't have the perfectanything.

(00:20):
You just have to do it over andover and over and over and over
again.
It's just the idea that you haveto do things for a long time
and learn as you go and iterate,instead of trying to search for
the perfect thing.
Do it for typically a week andthen be like, oh, this isn't
working, I don't like this, andtry to fit something into your
lifestyle that doesn't fit.
I mean, you see all the timewith crazy diets, now carnivore.

(00:40):
Uh, what else is going on ifyou're eating sticks of butter
and shit like that's crazy.
Stop doing that.
If you're doing that, peopleoverhauling their entire
lifestyles like could youimagine with the family and
you're like, okay, now I'm goingto start doing intermittent
fasting.
So I'm only eating, let's say,six, eight hours of the day, but
my family eats breakfasttogether, but I don't eat
breakfast in the morning.
Now what do I do?

(01:01):
Oh, but now I'm only eatingmeat, but my family's still
eating everything else.
So, like, how do you fit thatinto your lifestyle?
You can't, it's impossible andyou're going to literally just
fall off the bandwagon in a week.
So everything congregates in themiddle.
You have carnival one side,vegan one side.
You have high-tension trainingone side, zone two the other
side.
Everything is in the middle andit's just about being
consistent with whatever'shappening in there and you'll

(01:23):
get to where you're going.
You have to jump in and dothings wrong to start doing
things right.
You cannot do things right fromthe beginning.
Anyone who runs their ownbusiness knows right.
You can't just like do a courseand it's like I know exactly
what I'm going to do with thisbusiness.
I do shit wrong every damn day.
I'm like trying to learn thingsright now.
I don't think I'm spendingmoney.
I'm like is this even going towork?
But you have to do it and youhave to take that action.

Klara (01:43):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the
Grand Slam Journey podcast,where we discuss various topics
related to the Grand Slamjourney of our lives Sports,
life after sports, and lessonswe learn from sports and how
we're applying them in the nextchapter of our lives.
My today's discussion is withJames de Lacey.

(02:04):
James has a master's degree insports and exercise science.
Since graduation, he has workedwith professional, elite and
international athletes in threedifferent countries.
He's a strength andconditioning coach by trade,
writer, author and educator bynight.
James has competed in Olympicweightlifting at the national

(02:28):
level and loves passing oneverything he has learned to get
strong and jacked.
He has assembled, and continuesassembling, a team of his most
trusted friends and colleagueswithin the strength sports and
strength and conditioning spaceto give you the no-bullshit
information the internetdesperately needs, and this

(02:49):
conversation is just about that.
James and I dive into all sortsof things related to tips for
strength building, conditioning.
We debunk many myths anddiscuss the importance of
strength and power within allsports, prevention of injuries
and general longevity.

(03:10):
If you enjoyed thisconversation, please share it
with someone you believe mayenjoy it as well.
Consider leaving a review onApple Podcasts or Spotify, and
don't forget to subscribe so youdon't miss the next episode.
This conversation is alsoavailable in video on the
YouTube Grand Slam Journeychannel.
This is your host, KlaraGoshova.

(03:31):
Thank you for tuning in, andnow I bring you James de Lacey.
Hello James, Welcome to theGrand Slam Journey podcast.

James (03:40):
Thanks for having me, klara, appreciate it.

Klara (03:42):
Of course, Great to have you.
I just recently recorded aconversation with your amazing
wife.

James (03:48):
Mona.

Klara (03:49):
So it's great to have a power couple on the podcast,
talk about strength, mentaltoughness and many other topics
that I'm sure we will dive intowith you.
But before we do, just a quickintro.
I know you've been working inthe realm of strength for a
really long time variousdifferent sports through your

(04:10):
upbringing that led you tocoaching and really focusing on
being a strength training coach.
You're also the owner of LiftBig, eat Big, which I love the
name, so we will dive into manyof these topics related to your
Grand Slam journey of sportinglife coaching and strength

(04:30):
building.
But before we do, I want toalso give you an opportunity to
introduce yourself Anything youwant to add, James.

James (04:37):
Yeah sure, James DeLacy, I didn't tell you when we talked
previously.
Tennis was actually my mainsport.

Klara (04:43):
Really.

James (04:43):
Yeah, that was my first ever job was coaching tennis as
well, so I thought I'd springthat up on the podcast.
Tennis was my main sportgrowing up.
It started when I was like fiveyears old, played competitively
probably not to that level likewhat reserve grade club in new
zealand which is it's not bad,but it's not like amazing.
It was in the tennis academy atschool.
So I was was all tennis.

(05:04):
All I cared about was playingtennis.
And I started coaching at 13years old and coaching's been
pretty much my only job reallythroughout my life and then it
turned into a career in strengthand conditioning.
But yeah, so tennis was a bigpart of that.
So I actually fell into thisworld because I was doing so
much sport during my teenageyears tennis, soccer, whatever

(05:24):
else that I ended up having asmall knee injury.
I had to get some meniscussurgery for that at 16 years old
.
I couldn't do anything else.
So I ended up in the gym andthen from there I just set my
new path, basically my life downthat way, and then from that I
actually wanted to be aphysiotherapist.
I'm glad I did not become aphysiotherapist that would be
horrible.
So my grades were good enoughto get into physiotherapy.

(05:47):
So I was doing, I guess, thesimilar realm at university.
We had our professor of sportand recreation come into one of
the lectures and gave apresentation on exercise science
.
Me and my friend looked at eachother and we're like, okay,
that's actually what we wantedto do.
Switched from that, then therest is history Went on to do my
master's, worked inprofessional rugby Romania, usa,

(06:07):
new Zealand as well asinternational rugby as well on
top of that.
So, yeah, it's been really,really cool.
Jumped into all the differentbits and pieces around that yeah
, thank you for describing that.

Klara (06:18):
I have so many questions related to that.
But going back to being 16years old and going through
surgery and recovering, and itseems like you actually found
strength, which is fantastic,but I would argue I don't know
at which point of your life thatwas.
I don't know if surgeons wererecommending you go to the gym
and start squatting.

(06:38):
It seems like sometimes thosetwo don't go hand in hand, I
think nowadays they do, butmaybe back what 10, 20 years ago
?
that wasn't potentially the norm.
So what was that journey?
Like I know, you've been biginto Olympic lifting, and so is
obviously Mona.
But what was your journey?
What led you to startingworking on strength at that

(07:01):
point in time?

James (07:03):
So at that point it was was like I just basically had to
sit on the bike for my knee.
I wasn't a, I wasn't like oneof those hardcore knee surgeries
.
It's just stitching up themeniscus, so the recovery time
is longer than an older personwho just gets it cut out and
you're kind of like good to go.
Since I was younger, obviously,the stitching made kind of
sense, so I was just sitting onthe bike 20-30 minutes a day,
but then upper body weights iswhat I started there.
We had the personal trainer atour school gym had a couple of

(07:25):
programs and literally just likeI don't know if I was in there,
I don't know how many times aweek, just lifting weights and
obviously at that stage, likeyou just make gains like crazy.
So I was just getting in there,I was going with a friend at
like before school, at like 6 amand things like that, just
fully dedicated reading.
Back in the day, when thereused to be like fitness bloggers

(07:46):
.
I don't know if you used tohave like an rss feed and you'd
have like all the blogs thatcame up and people you followed.
I'm just like reading thatstuff all day.
That was basically me, eventhrough university, just reading
all that stuff.
And at that point as well,especially through university,
when you're training and thingsokay, you have studies and stuff
, but it's not anything likeyou're working full time.
So it was just me and a crew offriends that all we did was

(08:07):
wanted to go train, try thingsout, do stupid stuff.
I think that was the big thingis making sure we did as much
stupid stuff, I guess, aspossible, because eventually you
learn from doing all thatdifferent stuff and just
training and playing sport.
And that was all through thatjourney.

Klara (08:21):
And this switched from soccer and tennis, because
that's more of endurance andrunning type of sport right To
really focusing more on strengthtraining.
Is there something that you canpoint out that stood out to you,
because that seemed pretty muchnight and day, and I would
maybe even love to dive intoyour view of tennis players and

(08:42):
how they strength train orperhaps not strength train
because I have my own experience.
So now that you've been througha whole bunch of sports and
focused on building strength andmuscle for variety of athletes,
I would be curious to dive intothat at some point of this
conversation.
How did you see that transitionfor yourself?

James (09:01):
yeah, like I've been through quite a few sports
competitively tennis, soccer atthe same time, rugby at one
point, olympic weightliftingcompetitively, now jiu-jitsu for
a while now too, so it's a lotof different, a lot of different
sports, but the it was thepoint where I was at school I
was lifting weights.
It definitely helped my tennis.
People noticed to help my tennisI could definitely hit harder
from that, and then it was at apoint where you realize like

(09:25):
shit, there's no way I'm goingto be able to go pro.
There's levels, so, likeeverything, most people realize
at some point they go, okay,there are definitely levels to
this, especially when you comeout of small countries like New
Zealand.
The competition infrastructureis not like it is in the US or
Europe and things like that too.
You just got to be playing allthe time and playing high level
competition and I was playinglike national competitions in

(09:46):
new zealand, you know.
So it's kind of like, okay, I'mnot gonna go, I'm not gonna
make it in this soccer was.
I liked it, but it wasn'tsomething that I was like
passionate about and I wasn'texactly like that good at it
either.
So it's kind of like I enjoyedlifting and you know you see
results from lifting.
That was fun.
I really liked olympicweightlifting.
Being exposed to it within theuniversity gym.

(10:06):
There were people aroundstrongman style training.
I have a friend who competedtwice the world's strongest man.
I'm good friends fromuniversity and a whole bunch of
people from there and just beingaround all those people, I
think just seeing it all beinglike I really love the sport and
just getting into it, becauseoriginally it was just kind of
training to get big and strong,I'm gonna say for sport, but
kind of not really at that age.

(10:27):
You're kind of just getting bigand strong, just to get big,
because you're big and strong,yeah.
And then in terms of how tennisplayers generally train, I'm
sure we've all seen the clips ofthe various things like random
bandit stuff, agility ladders,replicating the swing with
cables and things like that.
It's funny because it'sprevalent in every sport, right,
every sport has the same issuesof someone trying to take the

(10:50):
sport itself, throw in the gymand make it look like you're
doing the sport in the gym.
I mean, golf is a prime example, pretty much exactly the same
as tennis, with the same thingsgoing on there.
Even boxing mma to some extenthas these same problems where
people are punching with bandsand doing all sorts of different
stuff.
And unfortunately it negatesthe principles of training for

(11:11):
sport, because the principles oftraining for sport are
universal for all sports.
You just might make some smallmodifications in terms of what
you're trying to prioritize,maybe the kind of modes of
exercise you're doing, but theprinciples remain the same and
when you're going down theseroads of clinical, trying to be
very specific, with doing bandedforehands and backhands and
whatever else you're doing,you're not providing enough

(11:32):
stress to actually transfer towhat you're trying to do.

Klara (11:35):
I'm curious about that.
So I've used quite a bit of thebanded stuff.
I do have to say, though, now Iuse it more for activation, so
I do it before I get on thecourt, to warm up some of the
specific muscles and get alittle bit more activation.

James (11:48):
You're talking about like more like band hip stuff right
and walking and things like that.
What are you talking about likebanded swings?

Klara (11:53):
yeah, because that's what I've been taught.
Like imitating forehands,backhands, you do kind of the
surf overhead, so I have thissort of light band that I try to
go really fast to get my heartrate up but also get a little
bit of resistance for my arm.
But that's what I mostly dobefore I get on the court now

(12:13):
and I have about.
It used to be a half an hourroutine or longer.
Now it's like 10 or 15 minutes,because that's all I can do.
Half an hour gets me actuallyto a point where I'm tired.
So obviously as I age I had toadapt my warm-up routine for
tennis.
But I also have recognized theimportance of strength training
for tennis.

(12:34):
I do see some of theprofessional athletes now
working more on the strengthtraining, but I remember back in
the day, for whatever reason.
It's funny when I talk to someof my other friends, athletes
who play different sports, theyalways laugh at us tennis
players when we would come tothe college gym and do strength

(12:54):
training.
People say oh, you tennisplayers, you do like these five
pounds, like wrist curls andstuff, because tennis players
used to hate lifting.
Because tennis players used tohate lifting and I was actually
one of those that luckily cameacross a strength training coach
in college who taught me someof the early Olympic lifts that
actually really helped mystrength and stamina on the

(13:16):
court, because you need strengthin order to sustain speed and
endurance, which totally makessense, but back at that time I
don't think people thought aboutit that way, so let me stop
there.
I think it's kind of along-winded way, but what's your
view now, kind of knowing whatyou know, when you think about
building strength, maybespecifically for tennis players,

(13:38):
what might be helpful?

James (13:40):
I treat it similar to how I'd almost train most endurance
athletes.
So I've had a few enduranceathletes when I had a small
academy back home ultraendurance, marathoners,
triathletes and things like thatwhere training volumes are high
, like you're on the court.
You're basically doingmarathons or endurance sessions
on the court when you'retraining and you're doing it
multiple times a week.
And same thing with enduranceathletes that are logging miles

(14:01):
every day and you get to thepoint where you can't spend
hours in the gym or multipledays in the gym and doing a lot
of volume, to the point whereyou're going to have your
technical training suffer.
Same in pretty much most sportsin that philosophy where the
gym should complement whateveryou're doing on the court or
whatever you're doing for yoursport, and that means that
typically you're doing lowervolumes and higher intensity,

(14:23):
which sounds counterintuitive tomost people.
They're like wait, if I liftheavy weights, am I not going to
be sore and tired and broken?
But it's like no, the sore,tired, broken comes from when
you're doing four or five setsof 10 of whatever it is you're
doing over multiple exercisesthree days a week.
That's when you're going to runinto problems and volume is the
killer.
Volume is the killer that willcrush your well, since you make

(14:46):
you fatigued, crush yourtraining effect and you're not
going to get out of it what youwant.
Because the idea within trainingfor a sport like tennis one is
you're reducing the risk ofinjury right from abuse injuries
.
So typically strong athletesare less likely to get injured.
There's some good review paperson that.
It doesn't mean that becoming apowerlifter means you're not
going to get injured.
It just means that just havinggeneral strength is good and

(15:07):
then, on top of that, you'retrying to improve qualities that
are going to help you withtennis.
Typically that's going to bespeed, power, strength etc.
And if you're just doingvolumes of work, like I think
most people go and thinking, hey, if I just do 20 sets of lunges
and I go do some push-ups andthings like that, yeah, okay,
you're building maybe a generalbase level of strength there,

(15:29):
but at some point you need toattack those qualities of speed,
power, strength etc.
And that requires typicallyintent, which most people don't
have in their training sessions,and intent is a huge one, like
you see it all the time.
If you're watching, if you everwatch an athlete's training
video, especially some of thetop.
I'm not doing tennis inparticular, but top pros.
I'm on one of my youtubechannels on sweet times of
fighting.
I break down a lot of profighters training footage that

(15:51):
just gets put up on youtube andyou see it all the time and
there's just no intent behindwhat they're doing.
They're doing jumps withdumbbells, but it's kind of like
just getting off the ground andthen maybe doing something else
and it's just like jumping orthrowing something, but there's
no intent behind it.
And they had for you toactually make the adaptation,
that the stress has to bepowerful enough for your body to
adapt.
And that means having theintent behind whatever you're

(16:13):
doing to essentially spur theadaptation, especially when
you're looking at speed andpower.
Right, because you can'tdevelop speed and power without
actually using speed and powerin training.
I mean, that's why, witholympic lifts as well as
mentioned as well helping you toget the bar overhead, you can't
do it slowly, you've got to doit pretty quickly.
Now, that's not to say thatOlympic lifts are the panacea of
, or strength and power training, because even moving barbells

(16:35):
to your shoulder overhead isstill much, much slower than a
sporty movement, and it's alsomuch, much slower than jumping,
plyometrics, throwing, et cetera, sprinting.
So that's just most of that ina nutshell.

Klara (16:46):
And you talked about intent.
Can you actually explain alittle bit more what you mean by
that?

James (16:51):
Yeah, think of it as effort.
Think of it as effort.
So, if I'm trying to jump withdumbbells, I'm trying to jump as
high as I can, every single rep, every single rep should be
your limit.
Obviously there's differentthings, like if you're doing
some maximal jumping orextensive jump plyometric
circuits because you'repreparing yourself to do those
later.
That's a different story.
But if you're looking todevelop speed and power and that
is your main focus of thatsession or that exercise, then

(17:13):
every effort needs to be maximaland that means you also need
long enough rest between yoursets and not do too many reps
where you incur so much fatiguebecause you want every set to
have that maximal.

Klara (17:23):
Yeah, do too many reps where you incur so much fatigue
because you want every set tohave that maximum.
Yeah, and I do have to say frommy experience I've had many
great coaches and there was onething that actually they've
always paid attention to, I'dsay not in college but in my
academy when you're preparingfor tennis or even doing the
conditioning.
We used to rather like shortertype of conditioning workouts

(17:44):
that may have been anywherebetween even 15 to 30 minutes
and they could have been spreadthroughout the day to maximize
our readiness for that andreally maximize that intent.
And every single one needed tobe always sort of a maximum
effort, because that'seventually what a rally on the
court is.
So you're trying to replicateevery single ball.

(18:06):
It's not really just themindset, practicing the mindset,
because every single point youhave to play with the mindset
like it's your last one to putyour best effort in, but also
obviously the sprint, becausethat action, reaction,
especially in tennis, it's soimportant.
The first two steps will reallydictate whether you get to the

(18:26):
ball, because those are the mostimportant one for acceleration,
because it's such a dynamicsport and there's so much change
in direction, like it'sprobably the same in rugby,
soccer, right, many other sportsyou have specific things.
Well, maybe in soccer you kindof run more, but once you get
into the ball and need tonavigate around players and

(18:47):
there's probably a lot of thatagility and sprint, which
actually, funny enough, goingback, we used to play soccer
quite a bit back and like forfun, because they said it's a
really good way to get a littlebit of the footwork, even for
tennis and footing anything from

James (19:02):
your experience, jim youim there's a few different
things I can dive into there.
What do you want me to start?
I can start with the fallacy ofagility training.
I could also go down the roadof conditioning in terms of what
people are trying to achieveand the general idea that pretty
much all sports are the abilityto repeat high intensity
efforts over and over and overagain, obviously to a different

(19:23):
extent.
Right, tennis is more ofendurance based, repeating
probably not maximal efforts,versus sports like boxing, mma
or repeating very high intensityif it's over and over over a
short time frame.
But I'll start with the agilitystuff.
So do stuff always interesting.
It's funny because anythingthat involves changing direction
gets kind of lumped in withthis word agility.

(19:43):
But agility isn't the abilityto change direction or to react
to someone.
You know, like people dropballs and stuff and then you
have to like you know, react andget those.
You know?
Yes, because that's not.
That's not agility, even thoughpeople would call that stuff
agility.
You can call it reactiveagility, but reactive becomes
redundant when you define whatagility is and that is a
reaction or a change in velocity.

(20:04):
So movement of the body inreaction to a sport, specific
stimulus, and that is a reactionor change in velocity.
So movement of the body inreaction to a sport, specific
stimulus and that's where mostpeople get this idea wrong is
the sport specific stimulus isthe most important part of it.
And if you look up warren youngagility or if any of the
listeners are interested I don'tknow if any of them are about
going this deep but warren youngagility, he's like the agility
guru, I guess you could say, ofresearch and I had the pleasure

(20:27):
of actually listening to himduring one of his talks back in
new zealand and he has somegreat papers on the side.
I'm not on the idea, I'm stuffthat researched on agility.
So typically you have change ofdirection, speed, and then you
have agility which is reactingto the stimulus.
Attention to speed tennis,right, hitting the wide forehand
, stopping coming back, thatwould be like.
So change of direction, speed,tennis, right, hitting the wide
forehand, stopping coming back.
That would be like a change ofdirection.

(20:48):
Speed.
If you put elite and sub-eliteathletes, this is usually the
best way to decipher whether aquality is important to the
sport or not.
If an elite athlete is muchbetter than a sub-elite athlete
at a certain quality, thisprobably means it's important
for success.
If elite athletes are betterthan elite athletes and their
quality is probably not asimportant for six in that sport.
So you take them, you do achange of speed test, you

(21:10):
basically run five meters to theline and run back.
Sub elite athletes tend toperform just as well, if not
better, than elite athletes whenyou add the sport specific
stimulus to react to.
So in these examples that we'redoing, like aussie rules
football, so you know someonebasically stepping one way or
the other and you're having toreact to which way they're going
the elite athletes faroutperform the sub-elite
athletes in these studies.

(21:31):
And then when they correlatethese two change direction.
Speed and agility togetherthere's only about a 30%
correlation.
So basically they're sayingthat both qualities are
independent of each other.
So I can be really good atrunning to the line and back and
faster than anyone else.
But then when I'm playingtennis and I can't recognize
that that toss is going to meanit's a kick serve coming to my

(21:52):
backhand, then it doesn't matterhow fast I am right, because I
can't read where that ball'sgoing and what's going to happen
with the spin of that ball.
So those are those ideas aroundagility where you can
potentially train the footworkand things in isolation.
But when it comes to the actualsport itself, you need to be
able to recognize the patternsthat your opponent is showing
you and be able to anticipatewhat's happening.

(22:13):
I think because tennis players,you spend so much time on the
court playing with differentpeople with different games,
like it almost becomes innatewithin tennis training itself.
Like there's no other agilitywork you can really do.
You're playing games all thetime, like some of my favorite
games always like one person onthe baseline, two players on uh
at the net playing, playing.
They're trying to pass.
You know whatever's going onthere.

(22:34):
So all these different thingsare all giving you different
looks of what's going on, andthat is what agility really is.
It's within the technical sporttraining itself, versus trying
to, you know, catch balls andand do other different random
things.
Uh, so that's the other side.
I don't know if you want tojump in there before I ramble on
some more different things itmakes sense.

Klara (22:55):
I guess just how I would explain it from a bringing have
been trained.
Tennis has so many differentcomponents that in order to
really gain the agility, asyou're correctly defining it
being able to move within thecourt and react and read the
game there's also ways to bemore effective with that
movement and that's what wewould almost.

(23:17):
You think about it, a componentof it, and you would train what
are the steps and footing toeffectively then get from the
forehand side to, let's say,back to the center and backhand.
So there's like these specificsteps that first is like
crossover step and then sidestepand how long or short they need
to be, and then you practicedose in isolation, let's say in

(23:41):
the conditioning that is morestatic.
In isolation, let's say in theconditioning that is more static
.
There are some reactions youcan actually replicate, like
people throwing the ball, evenby hand or with the racket.
That is still a little bitimitating.
But then you take that topractice off the court, then on
the court, and yeah, we used tospend hours doing that,

(24:02):
obviously on the court, andcoaches would then kind of try
to piece it together.
So you first, I guess, make itsimpler for the body to
understand and remember thosesteps and then you try to
implement that in the tennisgame overall, yeah, for sure For
sure that's definitely a solidway of doing it In terms of the
things I'm referring to.

James (24:22):
I'm referring more to, I guess you could say, people
trying to just get faster atchanging direction a solid way
of doing it in terms of thethings I'm referring to.
I'm referring more to, I guessyou could say, people trying to
just get faster at changingdirection or faster at, say,
reacting to something.
That's where it's kind of likeis the transfer ready there,
versus when you're learning thatfootwork?
Yeah, that crossover isimportant because that's getting
you faster back into the courtand then when you're able to
figure out what the hell's goingon in the game, yeah, you can

(24:44):
use that for sure one additionalthing, though, that this makes
me also think about is themindset.

Klara (24:52):
So you're saying, well, is this or isn't this relevant?
But then I'm also wondering,how much is it training your own
mind and almost like confidencein the belief system?
Because if you're doing thesedrills, uh, off the court and
let's say a coach is tossing youa ball, you gotta feel like we
we used to do the happy feet andthen try to think about, like,

(25:16):
try to run as quick as you can,either forward or different
directions, or sometimesmultiple balls, to react sort of
to the back and forth, thatfeel of the movement and getting
that movement of the tenniscourt.
I think alone just thatpractice builds a little bit
more confidence perhaps inourselves and just that fluidity

(25:39):
and comfort of being able tothen implement it on the tennis
court when you have the ball andracket and strategy and stress
and all of these othercomponents.

James (25:50):
So, but that's part of the physical training, right,
that's like that's the strength,that's part of your strength
training, or strength andconditioning.
Yes, in terms of what you'retrying to achieve there, because
it's off the court, the qualityyou're you're doing is almost
um quickness.
You're looking at deceleration,change of direction, all all of
that.
So that just ends up being partof that strength conditioning,
improving that physical qualitythat you can then take into your

(26:12):
more technical stuff on thecourt.

Klara (26:15):
And I do want to go back.
You mentioned there'sprinciples that are the same
across the sport.
And you have seen and didpersonally and have coached
various different athletes indifferent sports.
So I'm curious what have youobserved from there?
If you put sports in generalinto, let's say, one big bucket,
what are some of the principlesthat you find are universal?

James (26:38):
yeah, well, outside of endurance based sports, because
that's a bit different.
But like repeating I mentionedabout repeating high intensity
efforts is typically underpinsmost intermittent sports.
So sports that have stop starts, um, obviously endurance sports
are a completely differentbeast, but in terms of, uh, I
guess sports principle, trainingprinciples that reign across
all of them, it's it's the samething.
Right, you're still trying todevelop strength, speed, power,

(27:01):
um, muscle mass to self-extendpotentially, and then then
conditioning on top of that, andhow you're developing that kind
of depends on the sport.
But all those things are thesame for every single sport.
And repeating high-intensityefforts it's a funny one because
there's a few different trainsof thought of doing it.
There's a few old-school waysthat are still being done.

(27:22):
The thing with conditioning youcan kind of get good at it just
from playing the sport and alot of the times a lot of the
top athletes may not have thebest conditioning, and when I'm
talking conditioning, let's justlabel it fitness for everyone.
So it's a little easier tounderstand, but the top athletes
may not have the best fitness,but they know the game so well
that they're in position already, or they know where the ball's

(27:44):
going to be, etc.
So they don't expend as muchenergy.
And you see that within, forexample, team sport, soccer,
rugby, etc.
You'll play small-sided gamesoften and you'll play, for
example, 5x5, whatever biggergrids, because everything's
tracked with GPS.
Your best players don'ttypically have the highest
workloads because they knowwhere they need to be and what
they need to do.
They know when they need toexpend energy and when not to.

(28:04):
For anyone who practicesmartial arts or grappling,
you'll know that If you're awhite belt and you go against a
black belt, the black belt isbarely even breathing.
The white belt is dead becausethey know when they need to work
and when not to.
So there's obviously that inplay there.
But regarding repeatedhigh-intensity efforts so often

(28:26):
it's labeled as well as likerepeated sprint ability.
It's big, and especially big insoccer because it's such a big
component, and tennis, obviouslyyou have a little bit of that
as well, but that's typicallyunderpinned by how fast you are,
so how fast your first sprintis.
Obviously you can have a biggerdecrement and fatigue or slower
sprint times as you go through,say, a test like that, and it's
typically underpinned.
The recovery is typicallyunderpinned by what they call

(28:48):
aerobic or oxidative processes.
So think about I thinkeveryone's talking about zone
two now is you know you have todo these?

Klara (28:55):
long, long, this long that right.

James (28:57):
So typically those processes are what underpins
that recovery between sprints.
When you start adding otherthings, it becomes a little more
different, but there's thatkind of model of conditioning.
I'm still processing, I guess,this new model of conditioning
in my head, so I'm going to tryto explain it if it's going to
help me anyway.
So typically we look at it aslike energy systems, right.
People are like, okay, I needto do aerobic conditioning, I

(29:20):
need to do anaerobic, lacticconditioning, I need to do
alactic conditioning.
Now the problem with going downthis model of energy systems is
you can't isolate an energysystem.
All energy systems worktogether all the time and I
think most people might befamiliar with the graphs that
show 0 to 10 seconds is allalactic, 0 to 30 seconds is all
anaerobic, lactic, and thenforever on is all aerobic energy

(29:42):
system right.
But then when you actually lookat the data presented at the
research, you see someone do a30 second sprint.
You see 30 to 40 percent ofthat is through aerobic
processes, using oxygen.
Then you, you basically see allthree energy systems used.
If you, if you attach a uh amonitor on someone's muscle,
that message measures muscleoxygen saturation.
So how much oxygen that muscleis using you do a 30-second

(30:04):
sprint or a 10-second sprint,you see oxygen plummet.
Basically, the muscle is usingoxygen, but it's supposed to be
anaerobic quote-unquote withoutoxygen doing that exercise.
So we're in this point now wherethings are starting to shift,
where these energy system modelsmay not be as accurate as we
once thought and perhaps it'smore about trying to target

(30:28):
adaptations within the muscle oradaptations within the heart,
because these are our two,typically our two main limiting
factors within conditioningright, how much, how much blood
can we pump from the heart orhow much oxygen can we deliver
essentially?
And then how well can ourmuscles use that oxygen for
energy?
And those are our two limiting,typically our two limiting

(30:50):
factors.
You can go down, uh, like lungsin terms of breathing.
That's typically not much of alimiting factor from my
understanding.
Um, so these two are the mainones, and thinking of it that
way seems to be a little moreclear, at least in my head, in
terms of trying to structureconditioning for athletes,
because, instead of being like,we're going to do anaerobic

(31:12):
conditioning, but you know, like, just because I went three or
four seconds over what isprescribed as not anaerobic
anymore, like you know, theseguidelines are they that
stripped?
So, yeah, so that's kind of whatI'm thinking now and then, uh,
I guess within that you cancover, like I'm not going to say
, probably most tennis playersprobably wouldn't be limited by

(31:36):
heart function or by by beingable to deliver oxygen, just
because of the amount of volumethey're doing, of just lower
intensity work, or just theamount of time you spend on the
court right, you spend so muchtime on your feet training.
It may come down more towards Ithink most sports tend to fall
into this where it becomes downto quote-unquote muscular
endurance, which is theirability to use the oxygen and

(31:56):
recover between efforts and not,uh, at least within.
I think it translates well.
There's good research, newresearch within professional
boxing, showing that thesefighters, they're not able to
recover between rounds, notbecause of the heart, but
because their muscles aren'table to recover between rounds.
Not because of the heart, butbecause their muscles aren't

(32:17):
able to essentially use andrefill the oxygen well enough
between the rounds and becausetennis, obviously you're playing
points, points, points, pointsyou need to be able to recover
between each point, each point,each point, switching ends, et
cetera, sets.
You've got longer time to rest,but you need to be able to
recover the oxygen betweenrallies to be able to maintain
the oxygen between rallies, tobe able to maintain that
performance throughout the wholething.
And that's where it comes downto repeating those efforts.

(32:37):
It's hey, are we going toprioritize improving these
adaptations muscularly or we'regoing to prioritize essentially?
Now there's different way, morescientific things that you can
do to potentially look at thatover my head in terms of
actually testing it.
But there are some generalguidelines, like, for example,
if you get tired, uh, this isactually from, if anyone's

(32:59):
interested, evan pike on.
If you search him on instagram,he's got some really good stuff
but uh, if you're very tired,uh, quickly, like you're more of
a strength, power style athlete, I think typically you're more
centrally limited.
And then the other way ifyou're more endurance based,
you're typically moreperipherally or muscular limited
.
I think that's what hementioned.

Klara (33:17):
Hopefully I got that right and based on just my
experience and observations,actually what you have mentioned
, because we tennis playersspend so much time running on
the court I would add that theendurance type of the adaptation
with the heart that youmentioned wouldn't be such a big

(33:38):
problem.
I think it's more of therecovery and how you train your
muscles to use the oxygen moreeffectively and recover faster,
because over period of the yearsthat you train you kind of
develop that endurance on thecourt quite well.
So that actually continues toprove my theory.

(33:59):
Just reflecting my own tenniscareer, I always say if I did
strength training moreaccurately or added more to my
routine, I would say if I wasstronger I could have been a
better athlete.
Because also building some ofthe specific muscle groups help
you one no, just preventinjuries and there's plenty of

(34:21):
movement and rotation and injust tennis overall, being such
a one-sided sport, developcertain parts of your body very
differently.
Anybody Anybody can maybepicture Nadal, right, or Federer
.
They always look like one oftheir arms is so much bigger
than the other and like it goesto pretty much your whole half
of the body.

(34:42):
So when I was a kid I would goto a normal doctor.
They would like be looking atme like if I'm normal.
So I always had to go to sportsdoctors because they didn't
understand how the back andobviously the one side of your
body develops differently torecover faster and then be able

(35:17):
to sustain and sprint to theballs quicker as you continue
going on through how that matchright.
That can go anywhere from maybeone hour if it's quake to
several hours if it's the fivesetter.
Some of the men play on thegrand slams.

James (35:29):
So yeah, like uh, was it john, is the nicholas ma 70-68
for like the fifth set or somestupid thing like that.
Crazy, but it's like with thestrength training, it will make
efforts easier.
Right, the relative effortswill be easier in what you're
doing.
For the actual peripheraladaptations, it's typically done
.
It's not a hard or fast one,but it's typically done through

(35:49):
sprint interval training.
So things like getting on aspin bike could even be running
sprints, but it's something likesix to 10 second efforts and or
even up to 30 secondspotentially, and then you're
resting like 10 to 60 seconds.
You're maybe doing 10 rounds ofthat.
It's it sucks, it is so shit.
It is like, seriously, we, Iwas doing it.
One of the one of the mainresearchers doing this now is I

(36:11):
was trialing out some of hisstuff just so I could send him
some data.
We were at the 24-hour gym andI was upstairs on the spin bike
and I did four rounds or 30seconds max effort with 60
seconds rest.
My cords were so pumped Icouldn't even walk down the
stairs afterward, like you, likethat.
But that's that's intent, right, that's the intent you have to
have when doing this stuff.
To get those adaptations, youhave to push to the point where

(36:37):
it's uncomfortable and it sucks,and that's just kind of what
you have to do to really pushthose adaptations.
Now I will say that it's notjust those intervals that are
going to catch there.
You kind of got to go over thespectrum.
For example, while it mighthelp in terms of mitochondrial
function, our aerobicpowerhouses to use their energy

(36:57):
might not help in terms of bloodvessels, in terms of growing
your blood vessels, etc.
So that's typically potentiallydone.
Well, they don't know, butthey're correlated, like the.
The most blood vessels permuscle fiber ratios are in elite
endurance athletes.
So okay, they do high volumesof endurance training.
Potentially there's somethingthere.

(37:18):
So you know, there's alwaysgive and take with everything.
That's why you can't just domaximal heavy powerlifting
training or you can't just doOlympic weightlifting or you
can't just do bodyweighttraining, you can't just do
sprint interval training.
You kind of got to mix andmatch depending on where you are
in your training career, whereyou are in the training season,
etc.

Klara (37:35):
Etc yeah, and just what you mentioned, to add my own
experience I've been doing.
Now I can't do much endurancestuff, although that's always
the easier because from tennisyou're so trained.
So going for a run, or thechippers, let's say, in crossfit
.
Then people may know that thoseare my favorite.

(37:56):
I'm pretty good in sufferingthrough 30, 40 minutes and
sustaining the same amount ofenergy, because that's a lot of
what tennis is like.
So I really had to reframe howI train and gotten more into
strength training, mainly alsobecause I have some things that
are abused from tennis andrunning.

(38:16):
Actually, feet is one thingthat I'm protecting.
So I do most of my cardio nowon a rower or the assault bike,
and one of the best things I'vebeen doing, which I hated
CrossFitters.
Do you know the assault bike?
I think if you want to just havesome torture machine in your
garage that if you do like fourminutes a day, you're going to
be a better human.
Those are like the also bikesprings that you can either,

(38:39):
like Tabata, 20 second sprint,10 second rest or even vice
versa, which is almost harder,the 10 second sprint, because
you really go all out in 20second rest.
But I noticed when I do squatso I've been adding much more
powerlifting and strengthtraining it's so directly
correlates that amount of powerI can push on the bike.

(39:01):
So when I'm not doingtraditional powerlifting
squatting, I've been on asquatting program every other
day for several years with somebreaks.
Day for several years with somebreaks.
But it is so nice to see howthat strength that you built of

(39:21):
the bike kind of translates tothe power output that I'm able
to move through in the Ozzledbike to where now I stand.
The Ozzled bike it's never myfavorite.
In one day it's a torturemachine.
But yeah, anything you want toadd, james, from again your
experience, because I've seenthat on myself, obviously, and
so you've probably seen it onmany, many, uh, more other
athletes in sports.

James (39:40):
Let me try to make it a more practical at least what I
was saying before, morepractical for the listener.
I like to think of it as it'skind of how I did a lot of my
conditioning programming for thesports that I work with, and
it's basically a funnel system.
So most sports, at leastintermittent sports, you operate
kind of in this middle area,this middle grey area of

(40:02):
intensity.
So when you're on the court youdon't like, for example, if you
went for a slow, easy run.
Tennis is a little bit harderthan than that, but it's easier
than your assault bike sprints,right, yes, so that's where most
sports kind of sit and yourgoal of conditioning is to kind
of get what you're not gettingso you can spur on these
adaptations that you want.
So typically you train, uh,under what you're doing with the

(40:22):
sport and then over what you dothe sport.
So you're basically raising theceiling, like you mentioned
with your squat.
Squats can be part of that.
You're improving that poweroutput and the bottom.
You're kind of just buildingthat base and that's kind of how
I'm still currently at least.
I think that's most practicalfor most people Because
obviously you can talk aboutcentral proof of adaptations and
this and that, but for someonewho doesn't have equipment,

(40:44):
knowledge, sports scientists togo into, yeah, that can be a
bitch to try and do.
So this way tends to I mean,it's worked in my experience.
So you'll do maybe one day aweek.
You might do hard sprints.
It could be running tennisplayers can sprint.
It could be bike sprints.
Uh row is typically harderbecause of the cadence, isn't
there like it is with uh bikingand sprinting.

(41:06):
But you're doing essentiallysix to ten ish second efforts,
but you're doing max like fullrecovery between each round.
So you're doing 16 seconds.
You're resting like two tothree minutes between each one.
So slightly longer session.
You can also do this afterstrength training.
Depending on your time, itcould be a standalone session
and your goal would be, if youdo have power output on the
thing would be to maintain poweroutput for as many reps as

(41:28):
possible.
So basically you can use like a10 drop off.
So if you say let's just take400 watts and then you hit under
360, then you're terminated.
You'll be done, because afterthat you don't get any
annotations you want anymorebecause you're not having that
high intent.
So that would be, uh, one wayyou could do that kind of
conditioning.
If you don't have like, forexample, if you're sprinting,

(41:49):
you could time yourself, or youcan just go by feel, or you can
just go by arbitrary numbers, sotypically like five to six reps
in a set would be, and then youmight take a longer rest, like
five to 10 minutes, and you maydo another series of that as an
example.
So that would be like the topend and the bottom end would be
like your low end aerobic work.
So it could be going for a slow, easy run.

(42:10):
It could be going for a slow,easy run.
It could be going for a slow,easy bike row, whatever it is,
um 30 to 60 minutes as anexample.
You can also potentially put inthere more like long high
intensity intervals.
I don't know if, um theaudience would be familiar with
maximal aerobic speed or masstraining.
I think it's probably one ofthe more practical ways to

(42:31):
individualize your train.
That becomes a little easier.
Essentially, you're doing likea time trial, like a five or six
minute time trial, or it couldeven be a 1200 or 1600 meter
time trial.
So if you go to a track and yourun four laps, three or four
laps, and you time it.
That'll give you, essentiallyyou take your distance that you
ran in meters.
So let's just say you ran fourlaps, 1600 meters, and you

(42:53):
divide that by the time you ranin seconds, and that'll give you
a number, and that numbertypically ranges between three
and five.
So let's just say you did that,you get.
Let's just say four is yournumber, that's four.
I'm gonna try to make this notcomplicated.
Four meters per second is thatnumber, that's your score, four.
And so you're going to takethat number and now you can
design your intervals based onthat, so that four is your

(43:16):
maximum aerobic speed.
It's the speed, the velocitythat corresponds with your
maximum oxygen, let's just sayaerobic capacity, to make it
easier.
So you take that number and youcan design intervals based on
that speed.
So typically, if you're lookingat the lower end, you're maybe
looking anywhere from 90% to 100percent of your maximum speed
of that four.
And then obviously, if you'regoing to high intensity

(43:37):
intervals, you can go above that.
But for this example we'relooking at that kind of lower
end.
Let's just say you take 90 ofthat, which is 3.6 meters per
second, and you're going to dotwo minute intervals, right?
So that's 120 secondsmultiplied by your 3.6, which I
don't know.
So let's just use 4.
120 seconds times 4 is 480meters.

(43:59):
That's how far you're going torun or bike or whatever it is.
You did for your test for thosetwo minutes, and then you're
going to rest one to two minutes.
If then repeat, that would belike long, high intensity
interval training that would beindividualized to you because
it's paced to your speed, versusjust going out and be like I'm
going to run this interval asfast as I can, but now you're

(44:22):
just going back into that middleintensity that you're already
doing in training, right?
so that's just one way of doingit.
And then obviously you've gotabove and below.
Then as you get closer to, Imean mean, tennis tennis you're
playing every damn week most ofthe time, so it's a little
different.
But say, if you were goingthrough a preseason and you're
getting closer to a competitiveseason, then everything kind of

(44:43):
converges together.
Now you're doing your sprintintervals with far less rest.
Like we talked about the sprintinterval training, so say that
10-second sprint with like 20seconds rest of that.
And then we talked about thesprint interval training.
So say that 10 second sprintwith like 20 seconds rest of
that.
And then on the lower end youmight be doing honestly, you
might honestly just doing thesame thing.
It just might be a couple ofsessions of that, or you might
have one that's slightly longer30 seconds as an example to
essentially just bring in thevery long, slow stuff and do

(45:07):
shorter stuff, more intensestuff and the very high
intensity work with lots of restwith less rest.
That's just a simple way oflooking at conditioning for for
most sports yeah, I agree, wealways used to have a season.

Klara (45:21):
there's like the post and pre-season, and for tennis it's
typically in the fall,depending how many tournaments.
When you finish your yearsometimes, sometimes typically
September or October then youget a few weeks break where you
don't touch a racket and youjust de-stress and go to school
or spend time with friends for afew weeks, two, three, four

(45:46):
weeks and then that's when wewould start doing some of the
heavier, what we would sayconditioning kind of what you
had described Even more strength, a roll, kind of heavier lifts,
go to the mountains, do some ofthe sprint training that you've
mentioned and try to get alittle bit more volume.
So it was actually that's wherethey would say you're trying to

(46:07):
bulk up for the season liftheavier, sprint faster, longer
and also continue to add some ofthe endurance and, sporadically
, to build up a little bit offitness.
We did, but not very much.
It was usually some kind oflighter weight training.
So that's back in the day.

(46:27):
I think strength trainingwasn't as big, or as important
as it is now.
I have to say again, I added abit more training and lifting in
college Maybe my freshman yearalready and I actually did see
the correlation of me being ableto recover faster and also have
more power on the court,because some people if you don't

(46:50):
know tennis people think it's alot of upper body and the upper
body needs to be completelyloose.
Right the hand is, the arm isfree, so you have to have
emotion, but really all thepower you get in tennis is from
your legs.
It's like the rotation, and soyou get the power from your legs
.
So I think that really helpedme being able to, as I mentioned

(47:12):
before, continue to run fast Ifyou had that period of that
match and don't have thisdeclined, no matter how long the
match is, which is really kindof the point you want to
continue to have the speed atthe middle or end of the matches
when you started.

James (47:31):
That's probably the big, probably bigger mistake, and I
mean not just tennis.
In most sports people willtrain through pre-seasons and
then in the season comes, oh,I'm not, I'm not hitting in the
gym anymore because I'm playinga lot and training a lot, so I'm
not going to do that.
And then, yeah, that's when youstart racking up injuries again
.
You fade away through theseason.
You aren't able to maintainthat level of play and intensity
throughout the season and justfor you to listen, like real

(47:54):
practical tips that you can doin those times again, it's you
gotta, you gotta completely killthe volume that you're doing.
It's you can get in and do twoor three lifts and be done.
And I'm talking like, let'sjust say, let's just say you're
doing trap bar deadlift with thehigh handles to reduce range of
motion.
You'll have like no soreness,nothing like you could.
You could max out on that,probably still pretty good.

(48:14):
So let's just say trap bardeadlift and let's say dumbbell,
bench press, and it's actuallyjust as an example, you could
literally do three sets of threetrap bar deadlift.
If you know your um max, youcould do like 80 to 85%, one rm
and 90%.
One rm would typically be likeyour three rep max.
So you're quite below that.
When you're doing three repsyou've got a lot in the tank.

(48:35):
So 80-85% one-a-ram three setsof three done by bench press.
Let's just say you're doingthree sets of six and you're
stopping two or three short offailure on those, so that
relatively hard sets but you'renot pushing it to failure.
Then maybe doing chin-ups andlet's just say you can do
weighted chin-ups, maybe you'renot pushing it to failure.
Then maybe doing chin-ups,let's just say you can do
weighted chin-ups.
Maybe you're doing five to sixreps and that's like two or

(48:58):
three short of failure.
You could literally do that.
Boom, done.
You're not going to be sore.
You're getting the strengthstimulus because you're still
lifting heavy and you've reducedthe range of motion of some
exercises to the point whereyou're not going to have that
soreness carry over.
Now would I recommend thatwould be like your program every
week and that's what you do.
No, because there's otherthings you probably want to

(49:18):
address, but just as an examplelike that would take you 20, 20,
25 minutes and you're done andyou're able to maintain that
strength throughout the season.
Doing something as simple asthat.
You know it's you, it can bedone, it's just got to be done.
Smart, where most people willbe like okay, I have, uh, I have
legs today, so let's go.
Now.
I found this one on instagram,so I'm gonna go squat and then

(49:40):
I'm gonna go leg press, then I'mgonna hip thrust, then I'm
gonna romanian deadlift, andthen it's like by then you've
done 20 sets of legs, and thenyou're wondering why you can't
train for the rest of the week,and then your legs are still
sore when you're about to playcompounding and I would say also
the progressive overload.

Klara (49:56):
Right, there's something that I've been kind of trying to
understand now throughpowerlifting and I've been on
this program I believe I sharedwith you.
It's more five by five, supersimple.
I like it because I exactlyknow what I'm doing and really
the goal is continue to increasethe weight every single time as
much as you can to sort ofclear it, and when you can't, to

(50:18):
a certain point you sort ofdeload.
Now I started adding a littlebit of the, I'd say, squats with
the pause, because you'retrying to strengthen the bottom
position, position um.
but it was a learning and alsosomething when I were going
through it, because I alwaysbeen such a high volume

(50:39):
endurance athlete to actuallyrewire my brain I've always
thought, oh, if I'm not runningor chasing myself literally even
after maybe two, three yearsago to zone four and five every
day for like an hour an hour anda half I'm gonna be fat and
gain weight, like that was mythought.
And so when I totally switchedand decreased the volume to

(51:01):
where I even had days off, right, so I just lifted every other
day to get adapted to thestrength training, which was
very different effort my mindwasn't like comprehending,
because, again, I'm endurancemore of train up towards the
volume and that's the easierworkout for me.
It was a whole learning.

(51:21):
And then I found, you know, itjust makes so much sense like if
you build muscle your body'sgonna be like I always think of
the lean, mean machine it'sactually gonna burn more even
when you're not working out,like during the day, and you're
going to use your body moreeffectively, and then you're
going to have stronger positionsand kind of whatever else.

(51:43):
They will carry over to evenyour day, how you carry yourself
, how you walk around, to anyother areas of your life.
So I've gotten such a big fanof strength training.
It's taken me several yearsbecause I really had a hate.
Like I, I've recognized whatpeople say working out there's a

(52:04):
lot of effort.
So I've gone through oh my gosh, I would way rather go run a
marathon than do a heavy squatday, but it's been so beneficial
.
So maybe that's a sequence,james, to even your area, any
sort of myths that you're seeingthrough the sports that you've
been part of or, if you want toadd, variations of, like what

(52:24):
you've seen with men versuswomen, because I think, like we
women still had a lot of thatstigma when we started lifting
we're going to get big, likethere's been things that's been
talked to us from, you know,generations and people like
forever, which, like buildingmuscle, takes a lot of time and
effort, and like it's not thatyou're going to start lifting

(52:45):
and suddenly going to be huge.
Right, there's just a wholeregimen.

James (52:49):
There's a lot of effort that actually goes into being
able to lift heavy, but, um,take it wherever you want, james
I know I will say you prettymuch you pretty much touched on
three uh myths already thatyou've already gone through
right, having to always haveyour heart rate up.
I mean, people measure, liketrack, the heart rate in the gym
when they're strength training.
It makes no sense.
You don't, don't stop doingthat, whoever's doing that, you

(53:11):
don't need to do that.
So I will say that everythingI've said before caveat this
only really applies if the sportyou're doing is your number one
priority, right?
If tennis or your sport is yourpriority, then everything I
said kind of makes sense.
If you're just kind of doingyour sport not say maybe just
like recreationally,competitively, and you're doing
other stuff because you want tolook good and get strong, then

(53:31):
you can pretty well ignore mostof what I said, because
obviously things are a bitdifferent there.
You're not being fatigued foryour sport.
Who cares?
I'm just trying to get massivefor the beach.
That's a different story.
But in terms of men and women,yeah, I was training our New
Zealand Women's Rugby Leagueteam.
We had, if you have anylisteners around that side of
the world, basically NRL Nines,which is a relatively big

(53:52):
competition before the rugbyleague season, and then we had
the ANZAC test matches.
That's not professional.
There is a professionalcompetition for women, rugby
league, which startedsemi-recently at that time in
2016.
It was I think it was thefastest growing sport in
Australia at that time.
So it was getting there.
But we had obviously all thekiwi girls there.

(54:13):
None of them really had astrength training background.
The first thing I did was getthem into the gym and twice a
week to start training.
Now, in terms of it, isn't justdifferences in training.
Girls go hard like there's.
There's either we're going thisintensity or nothing.
And it's funny because you willbe playing warm-up games and it

(54:36):
will just be like, uh, ifanyone's familiar with with
rugby league, like typicallywe're playing, say, warm-up,
touch right, so it's just touch,play the ball, etc.
You know, after five minutesyou suppose they're fucking
hitting each other in a warm-upgame and he's like god damn,
like yeah, it's pretty nuts, sothat's a big one.
Um, I won't say.
I think maybe in rugby it mightbe a little different, because

(54:58):
you kind of see it all the time.
People in the gym, even thewoman, uh, so I wouldn't say
they were adverse to it.
I think it was definitely alearning experience for a lot of
them learning just basics likehow to squat, how to over
impress, all that kind of stuff.
But they tend to like lowerbody progresses so damn fast
with females in terms ofstrength.

(55:20):
I see over and over againfemales that start squatting and
they can their numbers justblow up and I think that there's
confidence that comes with thatright as well, as you see those
numbers go up and you can feelthat difference.
Especially in collision sportswhere you're running into other
people, it obviously helps atsome point.
So, yeah, those are the maindifferences.

(55:41):
Dudes yeah, I mean most of them,all of them can be lazy, even
the professional ones.
There's a lot of really goodteam sport athletes or a lot of
really good athletes like youwere saying.
They just don't like the gym,they want to just play the sport
.
They don't care about liftingweights, they don't care about
doing the other stuff, they justwant to be out on the field or
the court or whatever and beplaying.
But you know, I think theyunderstand why they should be

(56:01):
doing it.
It doesn't mean that everythingthey do is laser focused and
tent what they do in the gym,but at some point you just gotta
kind of let let them do thework how they do it, and at
least they're getting somethingdone versus doing nothing.
You can't kind of controleveryone, at least in those
environments.
You can't kind of controleveryone.

Klara (56:20):
I mean, maybe just going back to the squatting you
mentioned and I've shared howmuch I hated squatting.
I think now I just stand it, butI do find it very beneficial,
including what you mentioned,like the confidence.
I get a whole bunch of weight.
That is, at least for me, acomparison to Olympic lifters,
probably on powerlifters or evenCrossFitters.

(56:42):
I'm awful squatter like, justto put it out there.
I don't lift much weight andstill I'm trying to learn the
proper technique and I find,even from my own experience,
learning how to squat properlywas I practiced.
It took me a long time toactually learn how to squat and
I've been lucky to be part ofsome amazing's such a, it seems

(57:05):
like a dynamic lift and requiresa lot of muscles and something.

(57:30):
As I think about aging, it willprobably serve me when I think
about if I'm 80 years old, if Iever lived that long, just being
able to get up from the couch.
That's my goal.

James (57:41):
And.

Klara (57:41):
I think just the squat has a lot of things to it For
general fitness or people whoare training for that.
What would you recommend them,james?
Or maybe just to switch it togeneral population.
What are some of the basicthings people can do to build
strength and think aboutstrength in relation to
longevity?

James (58:01):
Yeah, obviously the training is different because
your goal isn't sportsperformance, but that doesn't
mean that you don't do some ofthe things.
I think where a lot of peopledo is, as I mentioned, you can't
just for sports performance,right.
You can't just do powerliftingstyle training.
You can't just do bodybuilding,et cetera.
And I think the same thingcomes to longevity right, you
can't just go and you can't justbe a powerlifter.

(58:21):
I think people, people knowthat the top level of every
sport is not healthy.
That's just a reality.
And I think, even if you'rejust training that one thing,
yeah, it's better than doingnothing, but there's better than
just doing that and I think,covering the spectrum of what
you're trying to do.
So, when you're talking aboutaging as well, right, you have
sarcopenia, which is basicallyprotein resistance.

(58:42):
Weight training obviously helpswith that.
Being able to maintain musclemass and to be able to use the
protein that you're eating.
On top of that, speed and poweris one of the first things to
go as you age.
How many people do you knowthat can sprint right now
without killing themselves, orjump onto something or jump off
something, even even at like intheir 30s, right?

(59:03):
So those things need to stillbe addressed within your train.
If you're not playing a sportlike those, things need to be
addressed in your training asmuch as, uh, we'd love to just
be able to chess monday backtuesday, whatever it is and bro
split and just get massive.
If we're talking longevity, youstill need to be able to do
some of these things, and havingthese things in your training

(59:23):
is just as important as doingthe other stuff.
So that means there's a coupleof ways to to do it.
So if we're talking like I wantto be, uh, I want to train more
like an athlete and become moreathletic, and you have no
niggles, aches and pains, noreal mileage on your body.
Your training structure willtypically go from faster
movements to slower movements.

(59:43):
That's the structure of asession.
So this is how most athleteswill train as well, unless
you're doing something a littlemore advanced, just some
different things you can do.
So you'll be starting with youdo your typical warm-up, then
you might do some kind of jump,plyometric, or throw or three or
whatever it is within yourtraining.
So, or throw or three orwhatever it is within your
training.
So jumps would be things likebox jumps, broad jumps, single

(01:00:03):
leg jumps, whatever Throws wouldbe, with the medicine, ball,
scoop tosses, rotational throws,chest passes and plyometrics
would be things with very shortground contacts.
It could be like jumping ropeor skipping, it could be like
jumping over hurdles et cetera,like that.
Then you'll go into somethingthat's more of a loaded or full
body power exercise.
So this could be olympic lifts,power snatch, power clean.

(01:00:24):
It could be loaded jumps,anything like that.
You can kind of.
You can kind of skip that onepotentially, if those things
maybe aggravate something or aretoo hard to do because you're
kind of getting the other stuffdone anyway.
Then you go into your heavylifting, so it might be like a
heavy squat and you might dosome kind of push and pull and
then, if you have time, youmight do some accessory stuff,
you know abs, arms, whatever itis.

(01:00:46):
That would be kind of generalstructure If you're, you know,
niggly knees beat up, et cetera.
I've found that reversing thatorder tends to work better,
because doing jumps, motionthrows when you're a little,
even after a warmup, like itsucks and like I've got my I
mean years of competitiveweightlifting and all the other
sports and whatnot, yeah, my, myknees could take a beating

(01:01:07):
every now and then and I'm likethere's no way I can start a
session doing some of thesethings even after a warm-up.
So typically, if you dosomething like your squats first
and then at the end of thesession you do your jumps, throw
plyometricsometrics and thingslike that yes, it's not quite
optimal, but optimal doesn'tmatter if you can't do the damn
thing anyway.
So you're going to do thosethings at the end and you'll

(01:01:28):
feel way, way better becauseyou've essentially just warmed
yourself up better doing heavylifting.
So that would be in terms oflongevity.
That's where I would look interms of training versus just
trying to stick to one style.

Klara (01:01:41):
Yeah, Anything else that you want to suggest as myths
people have when it comes tobuilding strength that you see
are often misconceptions.
Maybe for just general fitness,health again, longevity there's
a couple.

James (01:01:58):
I'll jump down two roads.
I'll jump down rep ranges, sopeople think of strength
hypertrophy.
I'll jump down two roads.
I'll jump down rep ranges, sopeople think of strength
hypertrophy.
I'll jump down stretchingbecause I think both are pretty
important for generalhypertrophy Rep ranges.
Most people think I'm going tobuild strength, so I'm going to
do one to six reps.
I'm going to build muscle.
I'm going to do eight to 12reps.
I'm going to build muscularendurance.
I'm going to do 15 plus reps.

(01:02:18):
But we know from research nowthe most interesting as a rep
range for a certain quality, allrep ranges build muscle.
Strength is specific to the reprange you're doing.
So if you want to get reallystrong at lifting a heavy weight
, you're going to have to liftheavy weights for low reps
because you can't do high repswith heavy weight.
If you want to build muscle,typically you're better off

(01:02:39):
lifting across the wholespectrum.
But some exercises are betterfor different rep ranges.
So, for example, if I want todo one to five reps of an
exercise, barbell exercises aretypically better than dumbbell,
just from practicality, becausegood luck trying to do three
reps with heavy dumbbells,because one they're going to be
probably too heavy to get intoplace.
Two, you might even might noteven have dumbbells heavy enough

(01:02:59):
to do it.
Three, yeah, and in terms ofrisk of injury, much higher than
using a barbell.
So there are obviously bettertools for different ramp ranges.
So typically over a session youmight do, in my structure that I
mentioned before, you might doyour fast stuff.
Then you might do, say, threeto six reps of a heavy barbell
exercise and then you might do,let's say, six to ten or six to

(01:03:20):
twelve reps of a more accessorystyle exercise, so say dumbbell,
bench, dumbbell presses, rows,whatever.
And then you might do somethinglike 15 to 20 reps and there
might be smaller stuff facepulls, lateral raises, whatever
else.
That kind of gets you acrossthe whole rep range.
If you know, if your goal ismaximizing muscle, even just
general longevity, that'stypically a good way to go just
to get strong across all of them, versus just focusing on one.

(01:03:42):
Uh, in terms of stretching,most people will stretch as a
way to get more flexible ormobile.
But the problem is when we'retalking about static stretching
here, so static stretching, andwhen I'm talking about mobility
flexibility, so flexibility istypically like a passive range
of motion, right?
So people will probably knowyou're lying down on the table.
The physio lifts your leg up,you know that's how far you're,

(01:04:04):
that's how flexible yourhamstrings are, as an example.
So that's like a passive rangeof motion.
Mobility would be like activerange of motion.
Can I control that in range?
Can I hold my leg in thatposition essentially?
uh and move around shoulder,whatever it is people will like
I need, uh, I'm tight, I need tostretch to get more flexible so

(01:04:25):
I can, so I can knock yourengine.
That's already another myth.
All right, stretching does notreduce risk injuries.
Everything else does, funnilyenough.
But um, essentially, stretchingyou don't.
You don't cause any structuralchange within the muscle or
tendon, right?
We want the muscle and tendonto be longer.
That's our goal, so we canproduce more force, or we can

(01:04:46):
produce force at longer rangesof motion.
Stretching only improves rangeof motion through stretch
tolerance, essentially, ourbrain being like I can tolerate
this.
I can go a little further, andthat's been shown over many
interventions.
The way to improve mobility isthrough load and moving through
a full range of motion.
So you squatting full depth andpausing is mobility training or

(01:05:08):
is flexibility training.
Doing a Romanian deadlift andfeeling that stretch to your
hamstrings under load, that ismobility training.
That is what is going to giveyou tangible change long term in
your ability to move throughlarger ranges of motion.
And the reason is becauseyou're actually changing muscle
architecture and if we'retalking, I'm going to try and

(01:05:29):
make it so it's not so damnconfusing.
Let me illustrate it like thisIf your knee is bent at 90
degrees, say, that is where youcan produce the most force.
Now I've lengthened the musclethrough doing romanian deadlifts
, other eccentric style trainingand long, long muscle
isometrics.
I can now produce more force atthis range of motion.
So I've now shifted the abilityto produce peak force to longer

(01:05:53):
muscle lengths.
I've now reduced my risk ofinjury because now, if I get
into these funny positions, Ican actually produce force in
the range of motion.
That's one of the the mainbenefits of doing just full
range of motion strengthtraining.
You're improving that mobility,but then you're also reducing
risk of injury because you canproduce more force at longer
ranges of motion.
So yeah, that would be big, big, I guess.

(01:06:14):
Two random ones more forgeneral population to think
about, maybe within theirtraining.

Klara (01:06:20):
Yeah, I do love that.
I find that it's also somethingI struggled with back in the
day when I started in CrossFitmore than maybe a decade ago at
this point, because I've beentaught oh, you're not supposed
to go back in the day past like90 degrees or parallel.
There were so manymisconceptions and so now, as I

(01:06:42):
started squatting like I findthere's no better way to get
into a proper squat positionthan, like anything else,
continue squatting and as yousquat more, you pay attention to
the bottom position and I seemy form improving, even still
after two years.
I was like, oh, I feel like Ihave a better, more stable

(01:07:02):
position because you strengthenthose muscles, and so often I
find people have this myth as I,if I stretch this or stretch
that like I will be able tofirst get to the position better
.
I was like no, you need to loadthe muscle and start doing some
of the progressive powersessions for the muscle to kind

(01:07:23):
of learn how to adapt and beable to do it with some weight.
And obviously, as you lift more, the muscle will get stronger
and you'll be able to get intomore proper positions.
At least something I have foundhas worked for me and I'll
continue to make, I guess,slight improvement.
They're not huge, but when?

James (01:07:41):
I do get them, I guess slight improvement.

Klara (01:07:42):
They're, no, no huge, but when I do get them I was like,
oh my god, that felt better.
I feel like my squat is moreintact, which I'm actually awful
squatter.
I think my ankles don't movevery well.
I don't have very good anklemobility, so, and you?

James (01:07:54):
wear weightlifting shoes.

Klara (01:07:56):
Uh, I do yeah so that that helps, uh, for the squad
for sure.
And and just going back, as youand Mona obviously come from
the Olympic weightliftingsomething I just love it's so
beautiful to see how this hugeheavy bar seems like it's so
kind of effortless, it justflows through the air when
you're lifting it.

(01:08:17):
How do you think about buildingstrength using some of the
olympic lifts versus maybe someof the traditional powerlifting
and I think I've shared with youmore of like the training I do
is just the general bench squats, barbell, row, deadlifts and
push press or the basic five,five things and that those

(01:08:39):
definitely translate, obviouslyonce you add some of the motion
to olympic weightlifting.
But how would you think aboutbuilding strengths and the
differences between the two todo so?

James (01:08:50):
yeah, there's a couple of different things that that come
to mind.
I'm gonna see if I can make itcoherent for the listeners and
for yourself.
Hey, let me start withsomething controversial.
I don't program deadlifts withany of my athletes.
My athletes don't ever commitconventional.
Now I've done that throughprofessional international rugby
all sorts.
Like most people think, oh, youshould deadlift, squat, etc.

(01:09:12):
We never conventional deadliftand I actually learned that from
the first thing, one of myfirst internships with a
professional team and they justdidn't deadlift and I was like
huh, wondering why then you kindof get into more and more
coaching.
You realize, like man,especially in like road players,
like a lot, probably a lot ofathletes, a lot of back problems
are pretty bad and people likethink, oh, you should just
deadlift then to strengthen yourlower back.
It's like there are other waysto strengthen your lower back.

(01:09:34):
You don't have to do deadlifts.
It was something that canpotentially increase your risk
of injury while doing it.
Plus, people tend to feel soreand stiff afterwards.
Plus, it's probably the mosttaxing lift you can do out of
any of them.
Plus, if I'm going to do aheavy lower body exercise and
I'm picking between squat anddeadlift, I'm always picking the
squat, because the squat hasthe eccentric component on the
way down where the deadliftdoesn't.
That doesn't mean no onedeadlifts.

(01:09:56):
I've had athletes that justcouldn't squat for whatever
reason.
They had to do like trap bardeadlifts, as an example, and a
trap bar would separate from theconventional deadlift, um, and
that's where I really like theolympic lifts.
I think they take the placeokay.
Again, caveat if sportingperformance and tennis or
whatever, is your number onepriority, this applies.
If it doesn't, this does notapply.
Um, but for me, the olympic,olympic weightlifting

(01:10:17):
derivatives if you can't do theuh, I guess the let's just say
power, snatch, power, cleanderivatives like pulls and high
pulls, uh, 10 000 times betterfor than de-lifting, in my
opinion, and I will even say ifyou're trying to build muscle
too, because the clean pull withthe shrug at the end is boss
for I put back, compared todoing some like a de deadlift.

(01:10:38):
So, um, I will typically lookat using hang power cleans, hang
power snatches, hang pulls,hang high pulls, clean pulls
from floor, snatch pulls, snatchhigh pulls probably my favorite
upper back exercise in theworld, but I like them because
one, they are lighter than thedeadlift.
Two, you're moving them fasterthan 10.

(01:10:58):
And if you look at research,with just traditional barbell
exercise lifts, right, you spend40% to 50% of the concentric
phase.
So the upwards lifting phase,the last 40% to 50%, you spend
decelerating.
Now that doesn't mean you okaymost body movements.
You're accelerating through theentire movement, right.
Think of like a serve, tennisserve You're accelerating to the
ball and then you'redecelerating afterwards.

(01:11:21):
But you're accelerating to theball and then you're
decelerating, uh, afterwards,but you're accelerating into
impact, whereas with squatting,de-lifting etc.
You're decelerating into thatlockout position.
It doesn't mean they're useless, it just means that you know
it's one tool for one thing,other tools for other things.
Olympic lifts you don't havethat.
Olympic lifts.
You're accelerating through theentire range of motion, which
makes it more of a ballistic oryou could say like throwing a
projectile style curve ofacceleration.

(01:11:43):
So you don't have thatdeceleration.
That's what I really like.
And then obviously you havethat triple extension hips,
knees, ankles as you come up to.
So for me that's where it takesplace in sports.
Training is using those Olympiclifts over something like a
deadlift.
It also can be your full bodypower style exercise.
I mentioned in my littlehierarchy there of a training
session, your full body powerexercise.
I mentioned in my littlehierarchy there of a transition.
Your full body power size couldbe power snatch, hang, power

(01:12:04):
snatch, whatever it is in there.
Other applications for thosecomplexes are really really nice
for work capacity.
Stuff for sports like tennisprobably wouldn't use them as
much.
I think it's probably bettergeared towards sports that are
more contact collision based.
But things like there's so manydifferent things you can do
with those.
You know you can do like twoplus twos, three plus twos.

(01:12:26):
You can do snatch pulls withpower snatches, power cleans
plus push presses.
You can do longer complexes ifyou like, really trying to build
up different things.
I think there's obviouslybarbell complexes.
I'll probably watch crossfit asno like.
Was it the bear contact orsomething like that yeah, those
are examples of what a complexmight look like, but within
weightlifting it's typicallylike two or three lifts,
something like two power cleans,two front squats, two jerks or

(01:12:48):
something like that.
As an example, there's like sixreps that are damn hard.
So, yeah, that's where otherapplications are with Olympic
weightlifting, but those arebasically the main difference.
Let me see what the power liftsand the Olympic lifts Perfectly
answered that question.

Klara (01:13:01):
We've been actually starting to add pair complexes
into our routine.
So power, clean, front squat,push, press, back squat, push,
press and just type down.
Yeah, I hate them, they're notfun, but they seem to be
effective.
Well, james, I know we're sortof right on time.

(01:13:21):
I really appreciate thisconversation.
It's been fun learning.
I will definitely re-listen toit a few times just to think how
to optimize my routine.
Anything else you want tosuggest people in 2024 to be
doing more of or less of?
I think, again, buildingstrength, at least for me, have
resulted in confidence,obviously under the barbell, but

(01:13:45):
also off the barbell.
I think getting stronger neverhurts, but anything else is.
There's lots going on in theworld.
Um, you want to suggest peopleto focus on in 2024?

James (01:13:57):
I don't want to speak to everyone, but essentially,
consistency wins over anythingelse.
There's so much shit going on.
People are trying to optimizethis, that to best, this to best
that, morning routines.
No, all that matters isconsistency.
That's the only thing thatmatters with anything.
It can be dieting for buildingmuscle or losing fat.

(01:14:19):
It could be training for any ofthose.
You can't have the perfecttraining session.
You can training for any ofthose.
You can't have the perfecttraining session.
You can't have the perfect diet.
You can't have the perfectanything.
You just have to do it over andover and over and over and over
again.
Unfortunately, you can't sellthat.
I wish I could.
Actually, I'm trying to, Iguess, through Lift Big, eat Big
and stuff, trying to sell it,but it's just the idea that you

(01:14:44):
have to do things for a longtime and learn as you go and
iterate, instead of trying tosearch for the perfect thing.
Do it for typically a week andthen be like, oh, this isn't
working, I don't like this, andtry to fit something into your
lifestyle that doesn't fit.
I mean, you see all the timewith all the crazy diets, now
carnivore uh, what else is goingon if you're eating sticks of
butter and shit like that'scrazy, stop doing that.
If you're doing that of butterand shit like that's crazy, stop
doing that.
If you're doing that, peopleoverhauling their entire
lifestyles, like if you have afamily, could you imagine with a

(01:15:07):
family?
And you're like, okay, now I'mgoing to start doing
intermittent fasting, so I'monly eating I don't know, let's
say, six, eight hours of the day, but my family eats breakfast
together, but I don't eatbreakfast in the morning.
So it's like now what do I do?
And then, oh, but now I'm onlyeating meat, but my family's
still eating everything else.
So how do you fit that intoyour lifestyle?
You can't.
It's impossible and you'regoing to literally just fall off

(01:15:30):
the bandwagon in a week.
Everything congregates in themiddle.
You have carnival one side,vegan one side.
You have high-testing trainingone side, zone two the other
side.
Everything is in the middle andit's just about being
consistent with whatever'shappening in there and you'll
get to where you're going.
You have to jump in and dothings wrong to start doing
things right.

(01:15:50):
You cannot do things right fromthe beginning.
Anyone who runs their ownbusiness knows right.
You can't just do a course andsay I know exactly what I'm
going to do with this business.
Like shit, I do shit wrongevery damn day.
I'm like trying to learn thingsright now.
I don't think I'm spendingmoney.
I'm like is this even going towork?
But you have to do it.
So that would be my advice.

Klara (01:16:08):
Yeah, thank you, and I conquer something I've been
pondering myself, and obviously,being an athlete, it teaches
you a lot of that, because to begreat at any sport, you have to
put huge amount of effort,daily, weekly, monthly yearly,
you have to be doing it.
Yes.
And you realize, even after allthose years, there's so many

(01:16:28):
things you can improve.
So I've definitely learned thatfrom my sport.
I also think each of us may beconsistent in one thing, but may
not be consistent in anotherthing.
Maybe consistent in one thingbut may not be consistent in
another thing, and are youapplying the consistency in the
right places to drive success inthe area that you have to drag

(01:16:49):
success in?
And so, yeah, I think again,even applying consistency to
strength and power.

James (01:16:55):
Yep, I've been doing this power training for about two
and a half years.

Klara (01:16:58):
You have to continue to if you want to be strong to live
heavy and compound andprogressive lifts, uh is
definitely a way to get thereand I keep improving just a
smidgen, but that's a long-termgoal, like strength and power,
is not?

James (01:17:14):
built, oh yeah, over the pbc on youtube.
Yeah, the pbc on youtube.
I've been at it for 10 years,10 plus years.
I've been lifting for 15 years15 years of doing this in
coaching for, yeah, a long, longtime.
And yeah, same thing withanything you have to take action
.
You have to take action becausethere's a lot of people that
will sit their models for thisand be like, okay, I'm gonna go
on youtube now, I'm gonna watchsome other people and try figure

(01:17:37):
things out and I'll keepwatching and I'll watch other
people do it.
And it's kind of like, oh, I'llstart once I have this in place
, I'll start once I figure thisout.
And it's like, no, you justhave to.

Klara (01:17:45):
You just have to take action and do it I agree and
continue to practice and learnfrom if we do something wrong,
iterate and pivot.
So definitely something Icontinue to think about and, um,
I don't think I can ever beperfect at it, but again, it's
the process and consistency.
So for anyone who wants to getin touch, follow you, maybe get

(01:18:08):
more tips for getting strongeror anything related to the
conversations we have had what'sthe best way to reach out?

James (01:18:17):
You can go If anyone's interested in combat, sports
training or physical preparation.
It would be sweets offightingcom and that's also on
instagram and stuff for morestrength housed, or I guess more
strength training based stuff.
Uh, lift big, eat bigcom.
We acquired that 2021 from theoriginal owner.
A lot of people who are in thefitness space or been in the
space for a long, long time willprobably recognize the brand.

(01:18:39):
They said started like 2011.
They were one of the biggerones back in the day, so we have
that one too.
We have training programs,information, youtube stuff yeah
all of it.
So check those two out and youcan just contact through any of
those.
I mean, you'll find me oninstagram and things like that
too, from all that stuff super.

Klara (01:18:55):
I'll add those to the episode notes so people can
easily click and connect withyou and thank you so much again
for the conversation.
So great to meet you and yourwife, if you enjoyed this
episode.

James (01:19:06):
I want to ask you to please do two things that would
help me greatly.

Klara (01:19:11):
One please consider leaving a review on apple
podcast, spotify or any otherpodcasting platform that you use
to listen to this episode.
Two, please share this podcastwith a friend who you believe
might enjoy it as well.
It is a great way to remindsomeone you care about them by
sharing a conversation theymight be interested in.
Thank you for listening.

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Klara Jagosova

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