75. Paul F. Austin︱Navigating the Journey of Psychedelics: Intention, Integration & Safe Exploration

Embark on a journey with us as we unravel the mysteries of psychedelics with the inimitable Paul F. Austin, founder of Third Wave. From the shackles of guilt and shame to a world of liberation and insight, Paul shares his extraordinary path, guiding us through the wilderness where ancient wisdom meets scientific inquiry. Together, we traverse the landscape of personal transformation, where psychedelics illuminate the canvas of our deepest selves, enabling us to sculpt the life we've always imagined.

This episode is a mosaic of shared experiences and sage advice, depicting the careful orchestration required for guided psychedelic journeys. Paul reveals the emotional pilgrimage of accompanying his father on a psilocybin trip, shedding light on the crucial elements of trust, preparation, and integration. In our conversation, Paul and I dissect the intricate dance between the individual's history and the mystique of psychedelics, offering a lens through which to view these powerful experiences. We navigate this space by understanding the variables at play, from the importance of intention to the profound impact of a guide's presence.

In the confluence of psychedelics and mind-body practices, we delve into how MDMA and ketamine are breaking new ground in mental health treatment, while traditional psychedelics offer gateways to profound healing. We explore how consistent practices like meditation and yoga can be interwoven with psychedelic experiences for enduring personal growth. As we close this chapter, we stress the significance of education in the realm of responsible psychedelic use, ensuring that each step taken is both informed and mindful. Join us for an episode that promises insights and a transformational shift in perspective.

Watch it on YouTube:  https://youtu.be/w-L2MRb3CrE

Connect with and follow Paul:
https://www.paulaustin.co
https://www.instagram.com/paulaustin3w/
https://twitter.com/PaulAustin3w
https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-f-austin/
https://thethirdwave.co
https://www.instagram.com/thirdwaveishere/
https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/

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Follow @GrandSlamJourney on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and join the
thousands of years.
The second wave is thecounterculture, and so the third
wave is how do we take the bestof both worlds?
How do we take the best of theindigenous and ancient ritual

(01:29):
and ceremony and sort of animistworldview and how do we
integrate that with science,precision, safety, ethics,
efficacy.
And that has been sort of mymission for the last almost nine
years now.

Klara (01:42):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the
Grand Slam Journey podcast,where we discuss various things
related to sports, life aftersports and transitioning from
our athletic endeavors to thenext chapter of our lives,
growing our skills andleadership in whatever we decide
to put our minds into For mepersonally areas of business and

(02:04):
technology.
In a nutshell, we talk aboutthe Grand Slam journey of our
lives.
Today's episode is slightlydifferent than some of my
previous ones.
I have been contemplating aboutthe power of psychedelics, as I
have been listening to manyfamous podcasters talking about
this topic and wanted to learnmore about it, and so I invited

(02:28):
Paul Austin to have aconversation around his journey
to psychedelics.
Paul is among the leadingvoices on the use of
psychedelics for personal growth, creative insights and
professional transformation.
He is an entrepreneur, authorand coach who sees psychedelic
use as a skill cultivatedthrough clear intention,

(02:50):
supportive mentorship andcourageous exploration.
His book Mastering Microdosingis an all-inclusive guide to the
practice of microdosing,including protocols, benefits,
potential drawbacks and sourcing.
We cover many topics on thispodcast related to psychedelics,
things to consider andeducation tips that Paul also

(03:12):
shares on his podcast, thePsychedelic Podcast, and his
educational platform, Third Wave.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, please share it
with someone you believe mayenjoy it as well.
Consider leaving a review onApple Podcasts, Spotify, and
don't forget to subscribe so youdon't miss the next episode.
This conversation is alsoavailable on the YouTube Grand

(03:35):
Slam Journey channel.
This is your host, KlaraYagoshova.
Thank you for tuning in, andnow I bring you Paul Austin.
Hello, Paul, Welcome to GrandSlam Journey Podcast.
I'm so thrilled to have you onand talk about your journey to
psychedelics and tripping, soit's journeys aligned in many
ways, but thank you for yourtime.

(03:56):
Happy Friday.

Paul (03:57):
Thank you for having me on .
You know it's regardless of theparticular topic of the podcast
.
It's always fun to look at howpsychedelics weave into even
things like sports andperformance and mindset.
I'm excited to dive in with youtoday.

Klara (04:11):
Yeah, and maybe just to clarify, the Grand Slam journey
is obviously named after mytennis journey.
That's why the Grand Slam.
But I very much am curiousabout the journeys of our lives.
I think our life is a journeyon its own and it actually
aligns a lot with yourexperiences, psychedelic
journeys and something I've beendiving into Obviously not as

(04:35):
deep as you are.
That's why you're on thepodcast and I'm curious to hear
your opinions.
But really the mental aspect ofhow we perceive things.
Mindfulness I know there's alot about breathwork meditation,
but psychedelics is just awhole nother world.
So I want to give you anopportunity to introduce

(04:56):
yourself to the listeners beforewe dive into many topics and
questions I have outlined herefor you.

Paul (05:02):
Fantastic.
So I started my path withpsychedelics at the age of 19.
So I grew up in a prettytraditional Midwestern family in
a place called Grand Rapids,and as part of that upbringing I
was raised in a fairlyChristian religious environment,

(05:23):
and so drugs like marijuana,lsd, mushrooms were not a
particularly welcome, let's say,distraction or substance to be
using.
And so at the age of 16, just afew years prior to my own
psychedelic work, I discoveredcannabis and my parents found

(05:46):
out that I had been smoking alittle bit of weed and they sat
me down one Sunday after churchand my dad looked at me and my
dad's a very sweet, kind, humanperson and we have a great
relationship but he looked overat me I'm 16 at the time and
he's like you know.
I haven't been thisdisappointed since my brother

(06:07):
passed away in a car accident 35years ago, right.
And so there was clearly alevel of conditioning in that
lens and that perspective thatmarijuana was this terrible or
this bad, you know.
And yet the experience I hadwith it was interesting, it was
fun, I laughed a lot, I was ableto address some issues with

(06:32):
social anxiety that I had atthat point in time, and so there
was a clear sort of differenceand distinction between my
personal experience and what myparents, let's say, say believed
to be true.
But the takeaway from that was,you know, there was a part of
myself that I had to be ashamedof or feel guilty of.
And so, at the age of 19, Istarted working with

(06:53):
psychedelics.
First psilocybin mushrooms atabout two grams or so, so a high
enough dose to definitely havean experience.
This was not a microdose, butit wasn't like a profound and
illuminating experience.
But a few months after that Idid a higher dose of LSD and
that was a really profound,moving experience.
And the sort of core insidertakeaway from that experience

(07:15):
was one, how important it isthat we have a deep relationship
to nature, to the environment,to the world around us right,
when we work with psychedelics.
It really opens up thatawareness.
And then, two, that I reallyhad nothing to be ashamed of.
So back to that story with mydad.
It's like LSD, psilocybinreally helped me to heal from

(07:37):
the sort of shame and guilt ofbeing raised in an overly
religious and Christianenvironment and allow me to
really kind of step out of thenormal day-to-day and dream
about what it is that I wantedto create with my life, and so
those early psychedelicexperiences then were very
influential in what I did.
At the age of 20, 21, 22, whichwas more or less I traveled, I

(07:58):
became an entrepreneur and Istarted to take a particular
focus on psychedelics.
In 2015, I was living inBudapest and was there with a
couple of friends and we weretalking about oh like,
psychedelics are becoming morecommonly discussed on well-known
podcasts, more research iscoming out about them and
cannabis is being reevaluated asa substance.

(08:19):
So the conclusion we came to ishow helpful it might be to
start like an educationalplatform about psychedelics,
which ended up becoming ThirdWave.
And the idea with Third Wave isthat the first wave is the
indigenous and ancient use ofpsychedelics, that we've had a
relationship with thesesubstances for thousands of
years.
When LSD was invented andreintroduced into Western

(08:48):
culture, A lot of clinicalresearch was carried out on LSD.
There was a lot of interest,but it became tied up in the
anti-war movement and wasprohibited, I believe, in like
1968.
And so the third wave is how dowe take the best of both worlds
?
How do we take the best of theindigenous and ancient ritual
and ceremony and sort of animistworldview and how do we
integrate that with science,precision, safety, ethics,

(09:12):
efficacy?
And that has been sort of mymission for the last eight,
almost nine years now, as I'vebeen building in the psychedelic
space and sort of to bring thisstory full circle.
A few years ago I went back hometo Michigan where I grew up and
spent some time with my family,and previously to that trip I

(09:32):
had sent my dad a book calledhow to Change your Mind, which
is by Michael Pollan, and it's apretty well-known book.
It was a major inflection pointfor the acceptance of
psychedelics and so my dad readthat book and he's never
obviously smoked weed, he'snever really been drunk in his
life, he's a very sort of pious,well-to-do man.
But after reading that book hebecame curious and open to

(09:54):
working with psychedelics and sothe sort of closing of the
story is the sort of experiencethat I had at 16 was transformed
, because about 14 years afterthat I actually guided my dad
through a high-dose psilocybinexperience and he was able to
sort of get it and go throughthat experience and have a
really beautiful, moving journeyin many ways, and so I think

(10:18):
that for me has been then to seehow much public perception has
changed on psychedelics just inthe last five, six years, how
open people are becoming to it.
It's like exponential in termsof the acceptance that we've
seen, and so I'm very hopefulthat we'll continue to see a
growth of interest in thesesubstances and medicines.

Klara (10:37):
Thank you for sharing that story, though I also love
how you kind of went full circleand kudos to your dad for
changing his mind.
I think sometimes we as humansget stuck in our own thinking.
So the fact that he actuallychanged his perspective and you
were able to guide him throughthe psychedelic experience, I

(10:58):
can only imagine how much thatmeant probably to you and to him
as well.
Anything you can share fromthat I'm curious because it's
something to guide somebodythrough it and other thing to
experience it.
Obviously you probably have toexperience it in order to know
how to guide them.
But just to touch on thatbefore we dive deeper, even into

(11:19):
the types of psychedelicsubstances, what would you want
to share?

Paul (11:23):
So, post COVID right 2021, especially there was a huge
spike of interest inpsychedelics, and I was
observing everything that wasgoing on at the time and noticed
that now might be a great timeto launch a training program for
practitioners and coaches andother people who want to enter

(11:44):
this space.
And so, in 2021, we launchedour practitioner training
program, where we trainexecutive coaches, health and
wellness coaches, life andrelationship coaches, some
clinicians and how to work withpsychedelics.
The five key things that wefocus on are what I call the
five key elements assessment,preparation, facilitation,
integration and microdosing.

(12:04):
And so a lot of people hearabout psychedelics right, they
hear about guiding a journey,for example, and they think
about just guiding.
The actual experience, and themetaphor that I like to compare
it to is like surfing, where,when we go out and surf, a lot
of people see surfing as ridingthe wave, but what they don't
realize is there's a lot ofeffort and energy that goes into

(12:25):
how you paddle out, how youchoose the wave, how you get up
on the board.
There's a ton of things thatlead up to that moment where you
finally pop up and you'reriding the wave, and I think a
psychedelic experience is verysimilar, that there's a lot that
leads up to the experienceitself.
And the more attention one paysto the assessment process, to

(12:47):
how we prepare ourselves beforeit, to the set and setting that
we choose to go into, theenvironment in which we're doing
the experience, the provider orthe facilitator or guide or the
medicine that we choose, all ofthese make a big difference.
And then even more so after theexperience right, how do we
help people integrate from thatexperience?
What's the role, potentially,of microdosing for that?
And so with the journey with mydad, it was quite informal

(13:11):
because we know each other sowell and there's already such a
deep bond of trust and love.
I knew him in and out.
I didn't necessarily have tobring him through a deep
assessment.
We definitely talked prior to itjust to prepare him for how to
navigate it and what might comeup and how to breathe through
some things.
And then a lot of the experiencewas simply him laying down with
an eye mask and a playlist, andhe took about the equivalent of

(13:35):
three grams of psilocybinmushrooms, which is a solid dose
, and then just sort of wasguided through this playlist for
about three or four hours andthen, towards the tail end of it
we went for a walk outsidethrough the neighborhood just to
sort of start to unpack somethings that he observed and that
he noticed, and then in thedays following we had some

(13:56):
thoughts and conversation aroundwhat he noticed and what he
observed and how all that went.
So I think, for anyone who'slistening to this just to zoom
out a little bit, if they'reinterested in working with
psychedelics or maybe some ofyour listeners are somewhat
experienced in psychedelics andthey're interested in becoming a
practitioner or helping otherpeople really honing in on those
five elements assessment,preparation, facilitation,

(14:19):
integration and microdosingthose, I think, are the key
aspects to pay attention to ifwe want to have a really
effective, safe andtransformative experience with
psychedelics.

Klara (14:29):
And I want to dive a little bit deeper into kind of
what your dad or what younoticed I don't know if you want
to share it from yourexperience creating these sort
of guided psychedelic journeysfor people and process, how to
do it.
Is there generally takeawaythat you see is common for

(14:50):
everyone or is it still verypersonalized, based on the
person's again, experiencesetting mindset?
Obviously what I have goingthrough life.
I'm just curious how that isfrom kind of your perspective
and being around it.
I'm sure you hear a lot ofpeople's feedback.

Paul (15:06):
So the subjective experience of someone who works
with psychedelics depends on anumber of factors, right, and
I'll do my best to list them out.
One it's going to depend on alot of like whether or not they
have any practice with deep,inner contemplative work.
Have they meditated before?
Have they done things likebreath work, yoga, float tanks,

(15:29):
cold plunging?
Are they more spiritually ormystically inclined to some
degree, or is this literally thefirst time that they've really
taken the space and time to goinwards and explore the inner
workings of their consciousnessand their psyche?
Right, that's one factor.
Another factor is do theystruggle with any clinical
symptoms?
Or are they on any psychiatricmedications like SSRIs, ADHD

(15:53):
medication, benzodiazepinesright, Because there can be
contraindications with thesemedications.
They do impact or affect thesubjective experience that
someone has when they work withpsychedelics.
If someone does have quite abit of trauma, if they are
clinically depressed or strugglewith addiction or anxiety,

(16:14):
their initial experiences withpsychedelics are going to be
different than someone who maybehas a little bit of a cleaner
slate to go off of when they'restarting to work with
psychedelics.
So that can be a really bigfactor.
And then I would say the othercore factor is what substance
they're using.
There's a pretty substantialdifference between ketamine,

(16:34):
which is currently medicallyavailable to everyone, let's say
, in the United States and.
MDMA and MDMA will be medicallyavailable, likely approved by
the FDA this year to treat PTSD,and there's a difference
between those two in mushroomsand LSD and ayahuasca.
So a big part of this as wellis which substance are we
working with, right?

(16:55):
How much of that substance arewe working with?
There's a substantialdifference in the subjective
experience between taking amicrodose and taking a very high
dose as well, and all of thisis sort of what I call the skill
of psychedelics, and so how wenavigate the psychedelic
landscape, how we cultivate anddevelop that skill set, that

(17:15):
depends on what medicine are wechoosing.
How much of that medicine arewe choosing, how often are we
doing it and what's theintention and that's often what
I come back to is intention isvery central to how the
experience plays out, becausewhen we're in that, let's say,

(17:36):
more vulnerable state, moresuggestible state with
psychedelics, when we open upour subconscious and our
unconscious, it can go in anynumber of directions.
This is where having a guide ora facilitator or sitter who is
there, who is present with you,a lot of it is how do we both
surrender to the emotions thatwant to be felt?

(17:57):
Typically, with higher doses ofpsychedelics, there's a lot of
emotions that are coming up.
There's a lot of anger orsadness, or grief, or even bliss
, joy, awe that is felt.
So part of it is how do I justallow myself to feel all the
feelings?
And then part of it as well ishow do I maintain sort of an

(18:19):
anchoring in my breath, rightthat sometimes in very intense
experiences our nervous systembecomes dysregulated, we become
overwhelmed, we may start tofeel anxious or paranoid, and so
just remembering to anchor inthe breath, to continue to sort

(18:39):
of take it one moment, oneemotion, one experience at a
time.
Then most commonly, particularlywith high doses of psychedelics
, if there's a great setting, ifit's well-facilitated, if the
dosage is pretty on point,people have beautiful, mystical,

(18:59):
transformative experiences.
And that doesn't mean thatthere aren't difficult or
challenging aspects of thatexperience.
Sometimes confronting trauma ordoing shadow work or looking at
our demons can be quite ahandful and the outcome tends to
be positive and beneficial.

(19:20):
Like I said, as long as there'san assessment process, there's
preparation right, this settingis safe, people can really let
themselves go, all these aspectsare really critical.
It's much different just to goto a music festival and take a
bunch of acid after you've beendrinking right, and so I think
the caveat with psychedelicsalways is to do them

(19:41):
intentionally, to have a safesetting and to ideally have a
friend, a guide, a coach, atherapist, a practitioner who
can help you navigate the space,especially if you're working
with high doses.

Klara (19:52):
Thank you for describing that.
It actually made me realize allthe things I did wrong, because
I do want to dive a little bitto also the differences in the
doses.
I personally don't have thatmuch experience.
I've been thinking aboutAyahuasca and San Pedro medicine
.
I know we talked during ourfirst intro conversation so I
would love to dive into that,but I guess where I was even
going with the question.

(20:12):
Just to explain, I tookmushrooms once.
I don't know which ones theywere, they just showed up in my
house.
It was about three grams and soit was this colorful
experiences.
I also ate Thai food so I sawlike scorpions swimming in my
food, but it wasn't liketripping me.
You know, for the first timeever taken a three gram.

(20:33):
Some people say it's like outof the world.
For me was just like warm,colorful experience.
I'm not really sure how long itlasted.
I don't think it lasted eventhree hours, and so that's why
I'm also wondering, aftereverything you described, the
biological differences, becausewe know that any developed drug

(20:53):
potentially has different impactand effects on people.
Maybe I'm like overly sensitive.
I took CBD just to fall asleepand I was so exhausted the next
morning that I just can't takeit.
I just have just to fall asleepand I was so exhausted the next
morning that I just can't takeit.
I just have these kind of weirddifferent experiences, and so I
feel like the concept ofpsychedelics and you beautifully
describe it it's so wide and itdepends on so many other

(21:16):
factors.
So I don't know where you wantto start, paul, but I would love
to get sort of description fromyou.
I know you mentioned LSD.
Obviously there's the ayahuasca.
I know we talked last time thatketamine treatment is something
that's becoming very populardue to, I think, a lot of the
distress and anxiety and kind ofdepression that's being

(21:38):
diagnosed now across the world.
So give us maybe a little bitof overview or wherever you want
to start.

Paul (21:43):
I'll start with a metaphor here, because it'll help the
listeners to really anchor intosome of the distinctions and
differences between all thepsychedelics, Because when most
of us hear about psychedelics wesort of clump them all together
.
Right, there's psychedelics,and I sense there's enough
nuance in education now thatpeople realize that psychedelics
are different.
I sense there's enough nuancein education now that people
realize that psychedelics aredifferent than cocaine and

(22:05):
heroin and methamphetamines andamphetamines.
Right, and the core differenceis, of course, psychedelics are
anti-addictive.
In fact, psychedelics help usheal from addiction, whereas
some of these other amphetamines, methamphetamines, cocaine,
heroin these are highlyaddictive substances and the
core reason for that is becausepsychedelics are more

(22:26):
serotonergic agonists.
So serotonin and stimulants andeven things like opiates are
much more around dopamine.
So I think just setting thatdistinction is a good starting
point.
And then, when we talk about thedifferent psychedelics, there
are at this point hundreds ofdifferent psychedelics, but the
most common ones are ketamine,which is actually one of, if not

(22:49):
the most commonly used drug inthe world.
It's most commonly used as ananesthetic in emergency rooms.
It's incredibly safe.
But about 25 years ago theystarted to kind of figure out
that, oh, I'm giving someoneketamine in the emergency room
and they went into maybe thesurgery quite depressed and they
came out quite happy.
So maybe there's more than justthe anesthetic property, Maybe

(23:11):
there's antidepressantproperties to ketamine, and so
ketamine is now approved by theFDA for depression through a
patented form of ketamine calledSpravato that was developed by
Johnson and Johnson.
Generic ketamine is availableeverywhere.
It's quite easy and accessible.
The downside with ketamine isthat it is slightly more
addictive than the classicpsychedelics, so people have to

(23:33):
be sure not to abuse it.
That's really important.
The second one is MDMA, alsocommonly known as ecstasy, was
first invented in 1912 by Merck,the German pharmaceutical
company, and then reinvented inthe 70s by a chemist named
Sascha Schalgen, who was thisreally brilliant guy who was a
professor at Berkeley andinvented hundreds of
psychedelics himself, and hismost famous one is MDMA.

(23:54):
Mdma was legal until 1985, andthen it started to sort of get
widely used in the rave scene,and so the DEA made it a
Schedule 1 substance in 1985.
And so for the last 30 yearsalmost 40 years now this
nonprofit MAPS, theMultidisciplinary Association
for Psychedelic Studies, hasbeen focused on getting MDMA

(24:15):
through clinical trials phasethree clinical trials for PTSD,
and that's on the verge of beingapproved by the FDA.
So MDMA and ketamine are bothgreat introductory, what we
could call introductorypsychedelics.
In this lotus flower metaphor.
When we're planting this newseed of self, when we're
nourishing a new sense of selfto allow for this full

(24:37):
blossoming and enlightenment,MDMA and ketamine really help us
to till the soil and think oftilling the soil as trauma work.
It's a great opener and accesspoint to really ensure that we
have a healthy, nourished soilto plant that new seed of self
into.
Now, planting that new seed ofself is really this death and
rebirth process, the sort ofclassic ego-dissolving nature of

(24:58):
psychedelics.
Lsd and psilocybin arefantastic for that.
If you do a high dose of LSD ora high dose of psilocybin, you
will most likely have anego-dissolving experience where
you'll sort of see beyond theveil of the individual self,
You'll see how connected you areto everything around you, and
that is sort of planting thisnew seed of self.

(25:19):
And then, after these high-dosepsychedelic experiences with
LSD or psilocybin, then we haveto integrate.
So integration is really thenourishment of that new seed,
right it's.
How are we watering that seed,how are we providing sunlight
for that seed?
And so integration practicesare things like meditation,
breath work, yoga, movement, howwe eat, how we sleep.

(25:42):
Microdosing is a greatintegration tool as well to
continue to allow that new senseof self to flourish.
And then, once we're reallylooking at, how do I sort of
access these higher states ofenlightenment blossoming into
this true full self that I knowI can become?
That's when these substanceslike ayahuasca, San Pedro, iboga
, 5-MeO-DMT are all relevant.
So ayahuasca, San Pedro, iboga,5-amio DMT are all relevant.

(26:04):
So ayahuasca.
Just, I'll give a brief littlenote about each one.
Ayahuasca is a tea from theAmazon that has been used for
over a thousand years.
Its active ingredient is NNDMTand it's disgusting to drink,
but it's a transformative andpowerful experience that's
stewarded by a lot of indigenouspeoples in South America.

(26:26):
Iboga is a root from Gabon thatis most commonly used to treat
opiate addiction and it's a veryintense and powerful experience
.
Iboga is.
In fact, out of all thesepsychedelics I just mentioned,
Iboga is the only one that Ihave not personally worked with
because it's that intense.
I'm sure at some point I will,but it's just a lot.
5-meo-dmt is the venom from atoad, so you can literally kind

(26:52):
of milk the Sonaran desert toadand smoke its venom and that
will create this really intenseand blissful experience.
That will create this reallyintense and blissful experience.
And then San Pedro is a cactifrom the Andes and the active
ingredient in San Pedro ismescaline.
It's also in peyote, which isanother cacti from Mexico, and

(27:16):
San Pedro is very similar to LSD.
It's a bit more energizing,uplifting, really great for
movement and exercise andactivity those, I think, eight
or nine substances.
What I usually recommend folksis, if this is your first time,
getting into trauma work, doingdeep inner work kind of like
looking at these differentshadowy or subconscious aspects

(27:37):
of who you are, starting withsomething like MDMA, ketamine,
lower doses of psilocybin can bevery helpful for that.
Don't necessarily feelcompelled to book a trip to
Costa Rica or Peru and drink abunch of ayahuasca as your first
time.
Kind of ease your way in,because the likelihood then of
you really transforming throughthis experience is much higher.

(27:59):
I've seen this happen too muchwhere people go right in and
they smoke the toad venom with5-MeO or they go do ayahuasca
and it ends up actually beingtoo intense for them and too
overwhelming and can sometimesre-traumatize them.
And so it's really good to sortof ease our way in.
I say start low and go slow.
You can always take more youcan't necessarily take less and

(28:21):
have other practices like breathwork and meditation and yoga
and float tanks that help you tobecome more familiar with sort
of this deep inner world,Because we're so conditioned in
modern society to be focused onthe external and the big shift
that often happens when we workwith psychedelics is we turn
that energy inwards and it canbe like I said, it can just be

(28:43):
quite confronting to face everypart of ourselves, especially
parts of ourselves that wehaven't looked at potentially
ever.
That's the continued sort ofoverview of all the different
psychedelics or use cases.
And then, of course, part ofthe reason that these different
psychedelics have differentimpacts is because the way that
they're impacting the brain andthe body is different.
You know what they're doing toour neurochemistry is different,

(29:04):
but that's like going into thatdetail would pretty much be the
rest of the episode.
So I don't want to likecontinue to belabor the details.

Klara (29:16):
So what I've taken away from your description is that
you likely don't suggestsomebody to book ayahuasca trip
and go to, so the amazon forest.
I was actually thinking aboutit.
I was researching the retreats.
I did hear also about the risks.
People say it's super intenseand so it's good to go with
someone you know and youobviously need to research the
shamans and kind of the dosingand how good these retreat

(29:39):
centers are.
So there's lots to justchoosing the trip itself and
where you go.

Paul (29:45):
And part of that as well is if you have a coach and this
is why we do even the trainingprogram that we do because for
you it feels for you, having nowchatted with you a couple of
times, is actually maybe quiteready to go work with ayahuasca,
right, there's probably a levelof inner work that you've
already done, whether it'sthrough psychedelics or outside
of psychedelics, the questionsthat you have.

(30:06):
I could easily recommend you togo.
Okay, check out this specificcenter.
I think it would be a reallygreat opener.
They take really good care ofpeople and for you the chances
of it being a positive andbeneficial experience.
My senses would be quite highand it's always so personal.
So typically what I communicatepublicly on public platforms is

(30:27):
a more conservative approach.
Right, because it's better to,like I said, the sort of start
low and go slow.
But if you have a coach, aprovider, someone who really
knows this space, the nuance ofit, and they can talk with you,
they can assess where you're at,they can get a sense of what
might work for you.
For some people they could endup having one of their first
experiences be ayahuasca or SanPedro.
But I don't necessarilyrecommend that on a broad basis,

(30:50):
simply because I know there area lot of people who are coming
into this space who have a lotof big T trauma in particular,
and if that's just blastedthrough with things like
ayahuasca or 5-MeO, it canactually be highly destabilizing
and quite difficult for someoneto navigate planks, cold
plunges.

Klara (31:08):
I love cold plunging.
I do it mainly for my athleticinjuries, but I do recognize
some of the fun alertness andjust calming effect.
You have to calm your breath tonot panic.

(31:30):
So, especially at the beginning, it was really fun playing with
my mind because it just goesinto this shock oh my gosh, I'm
going to die.
And so it's really fun calmingyou down, know you're safe.
It's fine, like five minutes at40 degrees water.
It's not fun calming you down,know you're safe, it's fine,
like five minutes at 40 degreeswater.
It's not gonna kill you.
But also the yoga andmeditation.
And so how do you see thistrend?
It seems like you see it verycomplimentary.

(31:52):
But how do you see this trendoverall in society?
Because it seems likeeverywhere you turn around,
these four are shown on everycorner of the screen, whether
you're looking at email orwebsites or popping up on
Facebook of these therapies andobviously, the rise of
psychedelics as well.
What's your view on it?

Paul (32:12):
You know, when we talk about the skill of psychedelics,
I really look at navigating theskill of psychedelics, as how
do we combine this high-dosekind of catalytic,
transformative, intense workwith microdosing and what I call
non-psychedelic modalitiesbreathwork, yoga, meditation,
cold plunging and that thesubstrate of transformation

(32:34):
right, the sort of metaphor ofthe thing to you know how we
brush our teeth every single day, how we maintain these more
aware, reactive, more centeredstates, is through practices
that don't require us to take asubstance, and I think the
reason these have become and arebecoming more relevant and more

(32:56):
widely used is because for solong we've been stuck in this
model of a separation betweenthe mind and the body.
So if you dig into some of thefoundational science and
research that's informed let'ssay conventional psychiatric,
the use of conventionalpsychiatric medications like
SSRIs a lot of it is rooted in apurely biological framework.

(33:17):
In other words, someone'sserotonin is low.
If they take this drug, it'llfix their serotonin, without
recognizing that actually thebrain is much more complicated
than that and that the sort ofneurochemistry of the brain is
also impacted by what we eat, byhow we sleep, by our emotional
upbringing, by whether or not wehave trauma right, and so I
think what's happening now iswe're starting to realize that

(33:39):
mental health is much morecomplex than we had previously
assumed and that these practiceslike meditation and breath work
and cold plunging and yogaactually help to improve mental
health because of their impacton neuroplasticity.
So if you look at some of theresearch that's been done, for
example, on mindfulnessmeditation, sitting on the

(34:00):
cushion for 20 minutes a day forsix straight weeks shows
measurable changes in brainplasticity.
So there's something calledgray matter in the brain, and
when we meditate consistently,that gray matter actually grows
and develops, and that'sassociated with our ability to
change, that's associated withour ability to make new choices
and make new decisions, and sothe sort of fundamental core of

(34:21):
any growth, kind of path ofgrowth, development, healing,
transformation is the capacityto change.
And so these tools, thesepractices, essentially allow us
to, on an everyday basis,continue to grow and evolve
rather than feeling stuck orstagnant.
And these practices are soimportant because we can't just
take a bunch of mushrooms everyday or we can't day.

(34:44):
I wouldn't even recommendmicrodosing every day
necessarily.
It really has to be anendogenous practice that we root
in, or else we're replicating alot of the same harms of our
current psychiatric system,which is essentially, take this
pill to feel better.
This pill to feel better, right, Rely on something outside of

(35:06):
you, utilize this as a crutch tosort of manage your symptoms,
but it doesn't really ever getto the core of the thing itself.
And so I think, you know, withpsychedelics, with these other
contemplative practices, we canget to the thing, we can get to
the core of the thing itself,which then allows us to be much
more free, to have much morechoice, to be more autonomous,
to be more sovereign.
And that, to me, is the quoteunquote goal of a lot of this

(35:29):
inner work is how can I be freefrom attachment, how can I be
free from reactivity, how can Ibe free from expectation and
just simply exist and create asa human being who is navigating
life and having fun while doing?

Klara (35:45):
it and it makes me think about a lot of things.
I do want to go back even toour first discussion and what
you mentioned on your website.
It really seems like yourbelief is grounded that these
psychedelics exist.
Going back to kind of what wediscussed, combined with the
right practice, right place, ifyou take the right dose seems

(36:05):
like we're able to open up ourdeeper consciousness and then
make decisions on a differentlevel, instead of this kind of
hierarchy, power, greed-drivensociety that we're sometimes in.
I guess to even tie it tobiology, what I'm pondering
about, at which point it sort ofequals out, because our biology

(36:28):
is kind of created to alwaysadjust, like I've been doing
some reading through LorettaBruning, who writes about the
basic four chemicals serotonin,dopamine, oxytocin, endorphins,
and then you have the fifth one,cortisol.
But really those are the onesthat drive our flight, fight or
freeze and very much of kind ofwho we are get wired through our

(36:51):
experiences and upbringing.
But that's what I'm thinking.
Our experiences and the way ourmind works always kind of
readjust to what the newbaseline is.
So how do you see that generalbiology and chemicals working?
You mentioned they're moreperhaps serotonin spiking, but I
feel like wouldn't.
After a while our serotoninlevels sort of adjust and we

(37:15):
would come to the same norm thatwe sort of were before.

Paul (37:19):
It's a good question.
So I think part of this comesdown to how we perceive our
subjective experience.
Are we feeling better?
Do we have a better mood?
Do we have more energy?
Are we more aware?
Are we less reactive?
So part of it is from aqualitative perspective.
How is our life improving?
And what we see time and timeagain with the clinical research

(37:40):
on psychedelics is that ifpsychedelics are done in a safe
and responsible container, thatthey substantially can improve
the quality of life of someone,based on both more, let's say,
psychometric tests and also evenphysiological or biological
tests.
The other aspect of it is ifbiology is entangled with our

(38:05):
psychology and also our socialenvironment, our physical
environment.
So there's the classicdiscussion, nature versus
nurture, genetics versus the waythat I was raised, and I think
what we're learning is it's bothand proposition.
It's not either or.
So the biology matters, butalso, as we've already talked

(38:27):
about, how we have experiencedtrauma or other psychological
challenges.
That matters and has an impactthat we live in and who our
friends are and who our familyis and who we spend time with
and sort of the physicalstructure, everyday reality that
matters as well.
Right, someone who lives inpoverty is much more likely to

(38:48):
be predisposed to mental healthissues versus someone who lives
in a more comfortable middleclass situation.
Right, and so we can track thatfrom a neurochemistry
perspective, partly, but butit's also, I would say, much
more complex than just theneurochemistry.
Now, when it comes to, let'ssay, serotonin levels over the

(39:10):
long term, what I can speak tois that a lot of people who have
clinical depression and workwith psychedelics notice that
they're able to wean off certainpsychiatric medications and
subjectively feel better.
Now, what does that mean forwhere their serotonin system is
at and how it's?
I don't know enough about that,just because I'm not a
neuroscientist, but something isshifting and changing within

(39:34):
that.
You know.
You mentioned oxytocin, right?
So MDMA, utilizing MDMA, it's aheart opener, it's an
empathogen, and so part of themagic of MDMA is a substantial
spike in oxytocin, which is sortof the bonding chemical, the
relational chemical.
So when we are working withMDMA within that four to five to

(39:54):
six hour window, this is wherethe intention of the experience,
the environment of theexperience, how it's facilitated
, really matters.
Because part of the magic ofpsychedelics is how do you
leverage that window ofneuroplasticity, of an oxytocin
dump, of an increase in thedopamine baseline, if you will.
How do you leverage that openwindow to kind of move through

(40:18):
stuck or stagnant energy or torelease?
An even better way to put itwould be to release stuck or
stagnant energy, or to release.
An even better way to put itwould be to release stuck or
stagnant energy, because one ofthe other impacts that
psychedelics have on the brainis they impact the amygdala.
So the amygdala is the tinylittle almond-shaped sized
reptilian brain.
It's super, super deep, it'sthe oldest part of our brain and

(40:39):
it's the fear response.
And so when someone is, forexample, utilizing MDMA within a
therapeutic container to treatPTSD, in their normal waking
consciousness they can'tactually recall the acute trauma
that has created their PTSDbecause it's actually too
overwhelming for their nervoussystem to manage and navigate.
But when they take MDMA, thatfear response gets downregulated

(41:03):
so they can actually talk aboutthe extremely traumatic
experience without becomingoverwhelmed.
And so I think that is reallythe key to pay attention to is,
when we're utilizing these drugs, these medicines, what's
happening to the brain?
Psilocybin is different thanMDMA, which is different than
ketamine.
How are we utilizing that openwindow for certain intentions

(41:25):
and purposes?
And then what impact is thathaving on a go forward basis,
because, as we already talkedabout right part of the magic of
healing and transformation withpsychedelics is what we do in
integration.
It's what we do after theexperience, and so someone who
meditates every day for 30minutes for six weeks after a
psychedelic experience is goingto have a very different

(41:46):
integration process than someonewho just goes back and does
their normal everyday thing.
And so a lot of theneurochemistry, a lot of the
biology then is dictated by thepractices that we do on a
consistent basis and then theway that we leverage this sort
of open window ofneuroplasticity when we're
actually under the influence ofa higher dose of the psychedelic
.
Is that helpful?

(42:07):
I did my best to sort ofaddress or navigate.

Klara (42:09):
Yeah, thank you.
What that makes me think aboutand I did have a question for
you even during our lastconversation is thinking about
everything you were saying,taking it in, and it seems like
it's fairly difficult to add allof the right pieces of a puzzle
, like someone really needs tohave a great depth on

(42:30):
information and understanding ofeach of these drugs and making
assessments of the person, wherethey are, as you mentioned, in
their own personal journey, howtheir life looks like.
Perhaps you mentioned in theirown personal journey how their
life looks like.
Perhaps you mentioned even foodand nutrition, perhaps exercise
, how much they're able tocontrol their own mind and
trauma.
So it makes me think oftechnology and also the fact

(42:52):
Daniel Kahneman writes what yousee is all there is.
So specifically maybe thespatial computing AR VR that
I've experienced some of themeditation on one of the AR VR
devices that is so colorful italmost makes me feel like I'm
transported to a very differentforest, something that I would
imagine.
Perhaps psilocybin can do foryou if you're guided through the

(43:15):
right process and experience.
How do you see that?
Benefiting or maybe notbenefiting?
Because, again, it seems likeyou need to have this really
deep expertise created by peopleand programs to perhaps get the
most out of that psychedelicexperience for that person, to
kind of help them shift to a newtype of thinking and sort of

(43:37):
mindset.

Paul (43:38):
You know there's.
The vast majority of peopledon't want to become masterful
at working with psychedelics,necessarily, right?
Just like the vast majority ofpeople don't necessarily want to
become a five-star chef or thevast majority of people don't
necessarily want to become ablack belt in jujitsu.
So I think there's a there'ssort of a fractal here where
it's like part of the focus ofour training institute is to
train providers and how toreally master the skill of

(44:00):
psychedelics and navigate it.
So that way they are equipped.
So the general population inpublic are curious and
interested but don't necessarilywant to go down the deep rabbit
hole of psychedelics, feel safeand supported with someone who
knows a lot of expertise and canhelp them to navigate it.
So I think part of it isworking with a coach or a
practitioner or a provider whoknows a thing or two about

(44:21):
psychedelics allows you to askthe right questions, go, go
through an assessment processand just be supported in what's
ideal for you, so you don't haveto do all of the upfront work
to figure that out.
I still think it's helpful ifsomeone is going to work with
psychedelics to listen topodcasts.
On Third Way we have a bunch ofguides on the various
psychedelics.
I have my own podcast that I'vebeen publishing for seven years

(44:41):
.
So a ton of free content andeducation.
So again, the metaphor that Iwould use is like everyone knows
how to cook eggs right, and Ithink we should have a similar
sort of literacy withpsychedelics.
Like everyone should know sortof the basic fundamentals of how
we might microdose or how Imight do a high dose or how I
might set that up, but you don'tnecessarily need to go deep,
deep down the rabbit hole.
I think a lot of people canexperience healing and

(45:03):
transformation just by startinga microdosing protocol, and I
wrote a book called MasteringMicrodosing.
That's a really quick and easyread where folks can check that
out.
Or maybe it's signing up for aketamine experience.
There are a lot of providersnow that will send ketamine to
your home, so you can work withketamine at your house with the
support of a virtual coach.
So I think there's a lot ofways to dip our toes in, to

(45:25):
experience the benefits ofpsychedelics without feeling
overwhelmed by all theinformation that's out there.
And if someone is like, this isa path I really want to commit
to.
It's a path that I think couldbe life-changing, because my
argument, or my opinion, is thatthere are a lot of modalities
out there.
Some are great, like the oneswe've talked about today cold
plunge, sauna, yoga, breath work, meditation right there are

(45:47):
modalities that show efficacy.
There's also a lot of bullshitout there in training and
personal development and healing.
There's a lot of bullshit, andwhat I've noticed with
psychedelics is, time and timeagain, when they're done in a
safe and responsible setting,the impact that they have on the
lives of people who work withthem is tremendous and

(46:08):
substantial, and so my sort ofperspective is if you are a
seeker, if you are curious, ifyou're committed to your own
sort of path and process ofgrowth and transformation, if
you really want to quote unquotemake the most out of life, I
have found no better tool tohelp with that process than

(46:28):
psychedelic work, and that maymean it might be an experience
or two that you have in yourlifetime.
It could mean that you havethose experiences and you come
to realize that this is a paththat you really want to go
deeper down.
I've been working now withpsychedelics for 15 years and I
would say I've growntremendously from them, and it
is a path I will continue towork with these medicines and

(46:50):
substances, because life isemergent, life shifts and
changes and there's still thingsthat need to be processed or
handled or cleansed or dealtwith, and that won't necessarily
be the case for everyone.
Some folks are just like I'dreally like to have an
experience or two and that's it,and that's also totally
acceptable and fine.
Now, how do we discern thatdifference is probably the next

(47:10):
question, right?
What's the difference betweenuse and abuse is a really
interesting one, and I think itreally comes down to intention.
Are you looking to utilizethese substances to become more
aware, to do shadow work, to beinspired, or are you really
looking to utilize thesesubstances almost as a crutch,

(47:30):
as a way to disassociate, as away to actually avoid doing the
hard inner work of everydaychange with meditation,
breathwork and yoga?
These are great catalysts,they're great openers, but
they're not necessarily the bestthing to become overly attached
to because their downsides.
I think if we become overlyattached to them, if we think

(47:51):
all of our power is coming fromthis external substance, then we
sort of have lost the plot andmore or less our work is
self-defeating in many ways isthere someone you would not
recommend taking thispsychedelic journey or
experience?

Klara (48:06):
So I'm trying to figure out is there like an ideal
person that you think should tryit and someone who, well, if
you have these and theseconditions, it's probably not a
fit for you.
Try to find something elsefirst before you go into it.

Paul (48:21):
So anyone who's predisposed to psychosis or
schizophrenia or has a familyhistory of psychosis or
schizophrenia really should notbe working with psychedelics.
That's the main sort of caveat.
And then if people are oncertain psychiatric medications
SSRIs, antipsychotics,benzodiazepines, even ADHD
medication there are certainpsychedelics that they shouldn't
touch, like ayahuasca and MDMA.

(48:42):
Psilocybin mushrooms are okaywith everything except lithium.
There's really very few, if any, contraindications with
psilocybin mushrooms.
The only one is lithium.
So those mushrooms are againthe safest right.
I would say to anyone listeningthat's just a really safe
substance to work with.
Besides that, people have tocome into this on their own time
.
So allow people to sort of makethat choice and decision.

(49:05):
Providing education, providingcontext, is helpful and
necessary, like we've done inthis conversation, but at the
end of the day, this is a verypersonal choice for someone to
make.
So giving yourself enough timeand space to make that choice
and make that decision isimportant.
I would say.
that's about it no-transcriptfirst sort of psychedelic

(50:10):
medicine will be approved by theFDA MDMA for PTSD by the end of
2024.
I would also expect that thusfar two states have legalized
mushrooms Colorado and Oregonand I would expect California to
legalize plant medicines thisyear as well, and California
legalizing would be huge.
So I think 2024 is really goingto be sort of a banner,
catalytic year, because whenMDMA gets approved by the FDA

(50:32):
and California legalizes thesesubstances, that's going to have
a massive impact on the secondhalf of the decade and so I
think from an immediate basisthere's going to be a lot of
shifts and changes in whathappens with psychedelics and
from there it looks to be may beapproved by the FDA in 2027 or
2028.
Once California legalizes, Ithink we'll see several other

(50:54):
states also look at how they canlegalize and regulate certain
plant medicines.
So I would expect by the end ofthis decade that the majority
of Americans and Europeans andCanadians will have access to
legal psychedelic substanceswithin, I would say, six years,
six, seven years If folks wantto learn more.
Thirdwaveco we have a podcast, anewsletter.

(51:17):
If any folks are interested inthe training program that's at
the psychedeliccoachinginstituteso psychedeliccoachinginstitute
.
And then I'm on Twitter andInstagram at paulaustin3w and I
check DMs and if folks just wantto reach out with any questions
, I'm happy to help.

Klara (51:35):
I'll add those to the episode notes so they can easily
find you.
And thank you so much, Paul.
I know we're right on time.
I appreciate the conversation.

Paul (51:42):
Thank you, this is a ton of fun.
I'm glad we got to drop in fora little bit.

Klara (51:45):
If you enjoyed this episode, I want to ask you to
please do two things that wouldhelp me greatly.
One, please consider leaving areview on Apple Podcasts,
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Two, please share this podcastwith a friend who you believe
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It is a great way to remindsomeone you care about them by

(52:08):
sharing a conversation theymight be interested in.
Thank you for listening.