78. Nicole Wieberneit︱Skiing to Success: Lessons from the German Alps to Microsoft Leadership 🇺🇸

Episode Transcript
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Nicole (00:00):
The visionary leadership , or called the leadership
upfront, is really driving thatvision and then putting it into
building blocks.
What does that mean?
So that is then breaking itdown and then getting them to
work towards that and measuringtowards.
And I think the KPIs need to beoften in place for them,
because a lot of people actuallyneed structure.

(00:22):
And the second is, for me, thatmore coaching style.
So how do I ask the rightquestion to help them solve a
problem?
And the third thing is, which Ithink is super, super important
we're not doing enough.
We don't celebrate successbecause we constantly talk about
the problem and the negativeand this is not working, that is

(00:42):
not working.
We forget actually what weachieved.
So, looking back andcelebrating success to really
help the team to create thatkind of positive energy, and
looking how much did you achieve?
Because it's nothingoperational.
It's not a task list.
Yes, the task list is nice.
I really like them sometimes,but it's not with that higher
kind of goal and mission thatyou would like to achieve.

(01:04):
Where I think a lot of thesales strategist is because
we're working in a very complexmatrix organization.
You need to have marketing, youhave product group, you have
customer success.
You have the field, you havefinance and you need to bring
your ideas through, so thatleadership from the side, or
driving influence withoutauthority, is a huge, a huge

(01:28):
aspect and I think that is oneof the things which I constantly
work with the team on which Ithink is super important to be
successful, but it's super hard.
The last thing is really youneed to be in the values.

Klara (01:43):
Hello ladies, gentlemen, and welcome to the Grand Slam
Journey podcast, where wediscuss various topics related
to the Grand Slam journey of ourlives Sports lessons we have
learned from our athleticendeavors and how we are
applying them in the nextchapter of our lives, growing
our skills and leadership inwhatever we decide to put our

(02:04):
minds into.
For my guest today, Dr.
Nicole Wieberneit, areas ofbusiness and technology In
today's conversation we coverNicole's Grand Slam journey from
being a competitive skier,grown up in German Alps, to
being the leader at Microsoft.
Nicole is an award-winningglobal sales and strategy

(02:25):
executive with over 20 years ofinternational experience and
proven track record of leadingworldwide revenue growth,
incubating products in highlycomplex matrix organizations
like Microsoft and SAP.
At Microsoft, she's beenspearheading the growth of
various emerging solutions,implementing innovative

(02:47):
go-to-market strategies, leapingrevenues from $2 to $50 million
, mixed reality to $20 millionand scaling low-code to $800
million.
She directed a transformativefield sales experiment, pivoting
from product-focused toAI-centered solution selling,
which significantly contributedto 150 million revenue increase.

(03:11):
She has won several awards,such as Hall of Fame award
People and Collaboration, bypartnering with and influencing
leaders from other divisions todesign and execute several
cross-sell programs.
If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with someone
you believe may enjoy it as well.
Consider leaving a review onApple Podcasts or Spotify, and

(03:36):
don't forget to subscribe so youdon't miss the next episode.
This conversation is alsoavailable in video on the
YouTube Grand Slam Journeychannel.
This is your host, klaraEgoshava.
Thank you for tuning in, andnow I bring you Dr Nicole
Wieberneit.
Hello Nicole, welcome to theGrand Slam Journey podcast.

(03:57):
So great to have you.
How are you doing today?

Nicole (04:00):
Thank you, Klara, for having me here.
I'm doing well.
How about you?

Klara (04:04):
All good here, enjoying the weather.
It's been great in Texas,although we did have some storms
earlier this week.
But that's not what we're goingto talk about.
I know we're here mostly totalk about your Grand Slam
journey of life.
You're currently sales leaderat Microsoft, enabling
go-to-market strategies andleading high-performance team to

(04:25):
accelerate growth, with focuson software as a service and
platform as a service globalsolutions.
But you also have beautifulmulticultural background.
You've moved to severaldifferent countries and in
childhood you were a competitiveskier.
I love skiing, so actually I'msuper excited to dive into that.

(04:45):
I wish I had more time to ski,still in the winter.
It's one of the sports that Istill enjoy the most nowadays.
So that's a quick intro for me,but I want to hand it to you.
What would you want listenersto know about you?
What would you want to add?

Nicole (04:59):
Thank, you Clara?
Yeah, so I'm Dr NicoleWiebernit, currently live with
my family in Greater Seattle.
Besides working in go-to-marketand sales strategy, I wear
different hats.
I'm a mother of three teenagegirls, so that's the reason why
I need to work, to have somekind of clear mind.

(05:19):
My dog Loki another female inour family, so that keeps me
insane, because I actually walkand need to get out there, I
would say, as personally, Ireally have a passion for
experiences.
So from cooking to traveling tosport, but also when I look at
my work, I really like to drivegreat employee and customer

(05:44):
experiences, and so, from a workperspective, I'm looking after
a team of sales or go-to-marketstrategists and I'm currently
running an experiment atMicrosoft on how can we sell
better across our portfolio andreally how can we have the
customer in mind, getting morecustomer-centric, and how can I

(06:05):
design impactful customer andemployee experiences to grow our
sales revenue.
So that's a little bit about mybackground.

Klara (06:12):
I love that Starting from the experience and diving right
into it, and obviouslyMicrosoft is a great and big
company who understands it.
There's many other companieswho kind of live and breathe
this, but the obsession withexperience it always drives more
sales right.
How do you employees andcustomers feel if it's done in

(06:33):
the right way will then triggerto obviously more sales, brand
loyalty, retention, low churnand many other great metrics
that business leader look after.
But maybe going all the way tothe start in your upbringing,
I'm always curious how my guestsgrow up and where they grow up.
I have many internationalguests.

(06:54):
You're also from Germany, somaybe, if you take us back to
your childhood, what was yourupbringing like?
And I've hinted you were acompetitive skier.
So what led you to?

Nicole (07:06):
your sport.
I was born in the German Alpsand about 1000 meters above zero
no idea what that is in feet.
So and maybe people canremember with listeners here, on
the castle Neuschwanstein,disney has mirrored that castle,
so that's where I basicallygrew up, in a small village
there, with that castle.
So that's where I basicallygrew up in a small village there

(07:28):
.
My family was very well knownand my granddad was the founder
of the ski club and he helpedfundraise and built like a ski
jumping facility.
So he was really obsessed withskiing and he drove with his
motorbike, having the skis onthe back up to Oberstdorf, where
the big jumping competitionsare still there, and to live his

(07:48):
life of skiing.
So I would say I got skis putinto my crib and when I was born
and started with about twoyears on to really got put onto
ski, my mom was the one who hadthe passion, so she took me out
at a very young age.
We had our own lift in thevillage to go there or even

(08:10):
going into other areas.
With about four or five Ijoined the ski club.
Now you need to understand theGerman school system.
In Germany school ends atlunchtime, so you actually have
a lot of time in the afternoonand we had that small lift in
our village.
So I went home, had lunch, Iput my skis on and skied down.

(08:35):
I could just ski down a hilland I was there at the lift.
And so we were always a bunchof kids and used that ski lift
and we built our own jumps, wewent through the woods, we tried
different tricks and for me itwas all about the camaraderie
and playing outside together.
Basically, the races were on,and for me I especially love the

(09:07):
speed disciplines and thethrill which comes with going
down, and until today I get themost joy when I think about
doing first tracks in a fresh,prepared, hard run and speeding
down and with as little curvesas you can do, and that gives me
a lot of pleasure.
I feel like I'm free, I'mflying a little bit like that.

(09:27):
So that was my kind of dailyroutine, and even you know, when
you're going higher in school,you still have your afternoons
free.
When I was then 17, the headcoach offered me to pay for a
coaching license.
So I thought to myself hey,that is.
First of all, I can givesomething back to younger girls,

(09:49):
because I was the only girl inthe ski club and I can bring
them in because I was focusingon younger kids under 10.
But it's also a good way, whenyou think about going into
college and university, to earnsome money in the evening.
So I took that on and thenstarted my coaching life.

(10:09):
Unfortunately, nowadays I'monly a few days up in the
mountains.
So, clara, I have exactly thesame problem and I actually have
a mountain here in Seattle justbehind me, but I did ski the
Rockies.
I skied all over Europe.
I skied in New Zealand where Ileft.
Japan is still on my bucketlist and definitely some of the

(10:33):
other places like Aspen.
So nowadays, but having threekids and skiing is an expensive
sport, unfortunately, and thetime is not there.
But that's a little bit aboutmy skiing journey and my life
and how I did get there.

Klara (10:48):
Love it.
I have several questions I wantto dive into, but maybe the
first one do you have a favoritemountain when you think back, a
favorite one you like to go toor used to enjoy skiing?

Nicole (10:59):
on.
My biggest memory and when I gois Schladming in Austria.
That's when I did a lot ofskiing holidays with my parents.
They took out one week toreally go away and ski and for

(11:21):
me Austria has something withthe atmosphere of the huts and
the village and the field.
Plus there were, like it's, Ithink, four connected mountains,
so you actually have quite awide variety of runs that you
can go down to.
So that's for me from anatmosphere, field perspective, I
think from the best runs wasFrance I have been in Tignes and
the long runs and the amount oflike kilometers you can go and

(11:44):
the changes, it's massive butthere was a lot of concrete in
the mountains etc.
From the skiing itself, I thinkthe best experience I ever had
was heli skiing in Canada in theRockies.
There Before we had kids, myhusband and I we flew two weeks
to Canada to ski Lake Louise,sunshine Village and we did a

(12:06):
day of heli-skiing.

Klara (12:07):
Wow, that's impressive.
I just recently actually seesome of my friends doing
helicopter skiing out of Alaska,and it seems like as well
everyone who has a dream oftrying it out.
When they do, everyone saysit's actually exactly what they
imagine, or more, it's one ofthe best experiences of their
lives they have had.
I haven't done it yet, so maybeI need to put it on your list.

(12:30):
Yeah, that sounds impressiveand you have to send me your
list.
Sorry, austria, did you saySchlamming or Schlamming?

Nicole (12:37):
yes, schlamming in the Steiermark, which have also very
good food.
Back to my experience I lovefood.

Klara (12:44):
Well, when you go on vacation, it seems like it's
just the perfect pairing.
And I agree Austria with kindof the villages and the mountain
.
It has this beautifulenvironment.
It all comes together for thatwhat you mentioned, experience
actually that we started withyeah, and it's actually when you
think about that, even Italy,you know no-transcript.

(13:27):
That's been our place, Actuallymore my mom and my sister.
They've been going there.
It was their 20-yearanniversary.
Actually they haven't beenthere every year, but they've
been going there now for almost20 years in a row and it was
just so disappointing.
It was the first year ever.
It was the first year ever itwas raining and so it was just

(13:49):
one of the worst weatherexperiences we have had.
But I love Kronplatz for kind ofthe reasons you had mentioned.
They have long runs, wideslopes so you can go fast around
people, you don't have to kindof be behind anyone and they
groom all night and so when yougo in the morning I love the
feeling of the fresh grooms.
You can still see the linesunder your skis and that first

(14:11):
lift up at like 8 30 is justfantastic.
So I love going in early andexperiencing pretty much exactly
what you had said on the skis.
It reminds me, maybe just toshare there's one black diamond.
It actually is on the side, butbecause it's on the side there's
not many people in the morningand we used to stay in a cottage

(14:32):
right by it and it part of itis like super steep.
Anybody who's watching is likethis type of angle like part of
the slope, but when you go inthe morning not many people are
there and you have control.
Because it's freshly groomed,you can go really fast.
And it reminds me almost beinglike a dragon from Avatar.
You know, like the biggestdragon says that they're flying.

(14:54):
I was like I have that feeling.
It's like the biggest dragon inAvatar and you're just flying
down the hill and nobody cancatch you.
I love it.

Nicole (15:02):
But that is exactly the feeling I have when I'm on ski,
so I compare it like a bird thatcan fly, but it feels like I
can do everything and I'm free.
It's a very emotional state andit's really what I think drives
a lot of my passion.

Klara (15:20):
I love that and I can imagine when you grew up feeling
it.
I guess what do you replace itwith?
So maybe we'll come back to it.
But I also want to touch on youmentioned you were the only
girl in your ski club, which isinteresting because, given you
come from a countryside, itseems like there's really just
hills and that's the only thingyou all did in the afternoon.

(15:42):
I would have thought therewould be more girls kind of
joining the fun.
So if you reflect back, wasthere something different?
Was it because your family wasso much into skiing that led you
to the sport, perhaps more thanothers, and it's not as typical
for girls, because I thinkskiing is still not completely a
guy's sport.

(16:03):
I would have thought therewould be more boys and girls
sort of mix.

Nicole (16:07):
It's actually a really good question and I was just
reflecting back because evenwhen I think about so not only
the ski club itself, but beingin the afternoon out there it
was mainly boys and it wasreally very little females that
did it.
And I can remember that evenyou know, we built these charms.

(16:31):
I never went over them, but Iwas the one who said it's
cleared to go, but no, I thinkit had to do a lot.
Why I joined was because of myupbringing and my family, with
my grandfather being one of thefounders and the head of the ski
club.
And it's not only that.

(16:51):
I was doing downhill skiing, Iwas also at the beginning, doing
cross-country skiing.
I had female friends, don't getme wrong, but they were not out
there.
I don't know why.
I hope it's changing and youdefinitely see that.
And when I look at my girls,they all ski and they all had to
learn ski because it's apassion of mine and it's still a

(17:13):
family kind of sport and wegoing up there together and it's
something we actually can dotogether.
But if you look at, like, theparks itself, etc.
They're mainly boys.

Klara (17:26):
I think it's probably that risk taking and showing
these things, but I have no ideamaybe the parks I sort of get,
because my partner always tellsme is like first, men never grow
up and even if we pretend thatwe do, we always stuck at the 15
years of age and the thingsthat we do when we're teenagers.
It's actually impressive thatmore of us don't die because we

(17:49):
just do crazy stuff just becausewe're boys and we think it'll
be cool.
So I think there's somethingespecially in kind of the
teenage years growing up and thecombination of aggressivity and
like the positive, playful sidebut the playfulness with it and
trying to see who can do thecrazy thing can still stay alive
.
I think is something that isjust born in on average in the

(18:13):
male category.

Nicole (18:14):
But I think, even when I think back on racing, it's
probably we had three times moreboys racing than females over
all the clubs within the regions.

Klara (18:24):
Yeah, definitely far more boys and you recently went to
whistler.
I'm curious how was that?

Nicole (18:30):
oh, we had awesome awesome, awesome snow and
weather.
It was basically you had allthe seasons, from spring skiing,
you know, slushy, warm,especially in the afternoon, to
hard runs, sunshine, freshpowder, so you really could go
into deep powder skiing andespecially during the week there

(18:52):
was not that many people around, so it was great.
And then trying out some runs.
And then you, you have my kids,so, like I said, it's really
teenage girls, so get get themspeaking.
So like driving in a car,sitting there next to you.
It's the same.
On going up to life, you learna lot about what's going on in
their life.

(19:13):
They're making these selfiesand wherever they pose, but it's
a good connection that you canhave with the family and time
out there and then enjoytogether.
And then I have one who likesgoing through the jumps, the
other one likes to speed, thethird one really likes to go off
piste Nice.

Klara (19:32):
So you have a whole mix.
You got to vote and decidewhich slope or which terrain
you're going to do.
When that's good Variety.

Nicole (19:41):
We also split up, or the one goes later or one stops
earlier.
So we do that.
So you always have someone youcan ski with because they're now
old enough and they go the samespeed.
It's not like you need to wait,like when they were young, and
especially my youngest one shecould drive me nuts because she
was very headstrong.
So she started skiing when shewas two and she wanted to go up

(20:04):
the pass and I'm like you can'tdo that and I was scared you
know her in the chairlift thatshe falls out and like she
wasn't allowed to move becauseI'm actually afraid of heights.
So my passion for skiing pushesme to use the chairlift.

Klara (20:18):
That's a good combination because some of the chairlifts
they have a really good height.
So if you look down I can seehow that could be a good
combination of overcoming yourfear and then having the joy of
going down the hill fast andbeing free.
I love that.
So, building on that and maybealong the line of experiences,

(20:38):
you have had many internationaland multicultural experiences.
Obviously you've shared aboutyour upbringing in Germany, but
then you also lived in Canada,new Zealand, then you moved back
to Germany and now you're inthe US in the Seattle area.
So I'm curious about themulticultural upbringing and

(20:59):
maybe what drove some of thosechanges for you.
And even if there's a specificcountry or city you enjoyed
living in the most, what?

Nicole (21:08):
always drove me.
I wanted to travel a lot.
My mom is actually.
She loves to travel, so she wasalready in about more than 100
countries.
So when I was young we traveleda lot.
I was six years old, I was inSenegal, africa.
So that's kind of you know seethe world and you see a lot.

(21:28):
I was six years old, I was inSenegal, africa.
So that's kind of you know seethe world and you see a
difference.
And then I found that whilegrowing up in the mountains and
having that close, tight knit, Ifelt like I was in a cage.
So I just couldn't wait, once Ifinished high school to go away
.
I moved into another city andthen, during university itself,

(21:49):
I studied for a year in the UKand went there.
So that kind of learning to seeand exploring different
cultures is probably a big drivewhy I moved a lot around.
When you have that kind ofglobal setting and you had the
first taste and you're comingback, I can remember when I

(22:09):
studied in the UK for a year andcome back, you see the world in
a different way and actuallyyou see things which you have
done before you don't like thatmuch.
A lot of people say it's harderto come back than to actually go
away, and so that seeing newthings, learning new things, and

(22:30):
it's still that kind ofinterest in innovation and that
interest to do something new,combined with that traveling, is
which really drives to go afternew kind of positions.
And we always moved because ofjob.
It was not because we said, hey, we would like to go there.
No, it's like we moved fromCunard to New Zealand.

(22:52):
We have never been to NewZealand before and we agreed to
go there and it was like, okay,what is the worst that could
happen?
We don't like it?
Then we move on and go to thenext one.
Now I forgot the other question.

Klara (23:05):
Did you have a favorite place you lived in or a city,
definitely?

Nicole (23:09):
It's New Zealand.
It's for me from an upbringingperspective from kids.
The work-life balance isamazing and we talked about from
the skiing in the mountainsthere you have basically all the
climate zones from glaciers todeserts, so you're always very
close to the water, and familyand private time is very

(23:33):
important.
When I think back, I'm aconsultant in Germany.
You're still on client side at7 pm, 8 pm.
There are people who leave theoffice by 4.30.
You're the only one in theoffice Doesn't mean these people
don't work hard or come back,but it is like, hey, you go,
it's family time and I thinkthat kind of lifestyle is what

(23:59):
really drawed me into and gaveme that kind of pleasure, and so
I have New Zealand citizennowadays and I think that is
where we will retire.
On the other side, the negativeimpact is because it's so far
away from everything, there areno jobs.
There is no manufacturingindustry there, so you basically

(24:19):
have tourism and thengovernment and a little bit of
construction etc.
So the type of jobs that areavailable are very, very limited
.
So if you want to make a careerand you want to go to the next
step or you want to learn more,there is limited options and I
run my own consulting company atthat time and we were focusing

(24:44):
on SAP CRM and the productecosystem, so really consulting
from strategic IT consulting toimplementation.
But SAP changed their strategy.
Salesforce came very heavily inand grew in the cloud space as
well as like Microsoft wasputting on the cloud.
So we basically started to seewe are losing our kind of

(25:07):
livelihood because somebody elsechanged the strategy.
So we had to look at what areour options and, like I said
before, we always move becauseof jobs and we have one rule in
our family we optimize for ourfamily career.
We opted to have kids, so wedecided to move again and it

(25:30):
went to Germany at that point intime.

Klara (25:32):
And that's also smart.
I think some people don'trealize having kids come with
obligation and you need toprioritize, you need to kind of
adjust your life based on theseasons, right, then, what's
most important for you?
And so I love that youmentioned it, because sometimes
I come across people that hadkids or have kids.
It's like, oh, now I have to dothis and this and this.
I'm like, yeah, that's whathaving kids mean.

(25:54):
That's why you kind of have tobuild your life around them to
help support their becoming agreat human and productive human
in society, whatever that meansfor them.

Nicole (26:06):
I think also, it's important to not forget yourself
.
So you need to have a balance,because I also seen the other
ones where you have really greattrained, educated women who
have done a career and then theystay at home moms and it's like
is that all that you wanted?

(26:26):
Because when I look at, thinkabout how fast we both work in
the technology sector, fiveyears is like a lifetime.
Your knowledge is old and soyou're taking so much time out.
You basically have to startfrom scratch and not only is
your career in hold, you'rebasically not growing, and that

(26:47):
has a huge impact because yourkids at one point will leave.
Yes, they need you and you needto be there for them.
Yeah, and I'm not saying youshould abandon and travel all
the time, but how can you make abalance for both?
And I think for myself and a lotof time that was finding
balance.
Now I can.
At the moment they're ateenager.

(27:08):
I can say now I can grow and Ican impact further, but I stayed
and grew at the same time, andI think for your own self and
for own confidence and your ownvalues, think about what is the
right path for you and I cannotsay my path is the right one for
everyone, for God's sake.
Probably people think I amcrazy.

(27:28):
I think you need to find yourown one, because your kids will
leave your husband.
Who knows what happens to them?
I had friends where they diedvery early on and then you're
standing there with a mound ofdebts which you need to go after
.

Klara (27:43):
I also think, being from Europe, it's more of the common
structure, because the socialsetting is different than here
in the US.
Schools here for kids in the USare much more expensive.
Obviously, depending on the job, you may or may not make more
money.
But, for example, I havefriends who are teachers which

(28:03):
you don't make very much moneybeing a teacher and so
eventually what that means ispretty much your whole salary
goes towards somebody elsewatching your kids.
So I think in those examples,like I sort of understand well,
do you rather want to be thereand raise your kids or do you
want to teach other kids, andpretty much whatever you earn
goes towards somebody elsetaking care of your kids.

(28:25):
So those are definitely some ofthe things and priorities
people have to make and thedecisions they have to make for
themselves.

Nicole (28:33):
You said it.
They need to make the decisionfor themselves and think about
it.
And I get it.
You know, at the beginning wespent a lot of money.
I mean we still do.
I'm currently selectingcolleges in the US.

Klara (28:45):
So maybe going back to your career in business and
technology, you mentioned youhad a consulting firm and worked
with CRM and SAP and it seemslike you've really built your
career on CRMs customerrelationship management systems.
It seems to be one of yourbread and butter, kind of

(29:05):
looking at your LinkedIn profilethat you have started with.
Back in the day before maybepeople completely knew what CRM
was.
So I'm curious if you couldtell us a little bit about that
beginning, or even maybe go onestep further.
What led you towards businessand technology?
Was there any trend from yourbackground and upbringing that

(29:25):
made you be curious about thatintersection of those two?

Nicole (29:29):
I like to be standout.
I think that was one of thethings which drove me, also why
I went into skiing, but when Iwas at actually high school and
sort of what I want to study,and until then I always knew
what I wanted to do and I wentfor mathematics and economics
with a minor in computer scienceand I had that idea I go into

(29:53):
strategic consulting and BostonConsulting Groups, mckinsey's of
this world.
However, at that point in timeHowever, at that point in time,
sap had the big kind of growthtime you know, going from SAP R2
to 3.
And it was a hot name in theGerman market.
Think about, you know, first,kind of normally, you had IBMs

(30:16):
or HP was the name of the house,and there was that company in
the middle of Germany whoscrewed.
So I decided to apply and I gotselected and what was
interesting for me, it includeda five-month training period at
the beginning, whereas when youwould go to an Accenture at that
point in time, or Deloitte, itwas like basically immediately

(30:40):
going on to the job.
And I was like I'm not sure youknow, we talked about women and
imposter syndrome.
I want to learn first and beprepared.
So I went into IT consulting andI actually really loved it.
I didn't have a clear picturewhere I wanted to go, but I
could travel a lot.
I was together with otherpeople and at the same time I

(31:04):
grew, I learned and my first bigimplementation project was
actually with Maxim AB, adistributor of alcoholic
beverages out of Amsterdam,where I was responsible for the
marketing and sales processintegration and this got me
really hooked into the topic ofcustomer experience and CRM and

(31:28):
having that end-to-end kind ofview, that more holistic view,
because it wasn't only the CRM,but when you set up a promotion,
how do you do accruals andfinance, how do you think about
the supply chains?
So that was the starting pointand then throughout the next 16
years I've really stayed intothat SAP ecosystem and built my

(31:49):
CRM consulting career up,including running my own company
, and what I've done all thetime was I always wanted to
learn more, I always thoughtbigger.
So when you're coming in and Ithink there's a big difference
and we call it an all ITconsultant, but I think there

(32:10):
were some are consultants, someare configurators, and if you
can stand up and really beingthat kind of translator from
business requirement and canspeak that business language and
get that into IT and how to setit up, and then you see how
that lands when you're goinglive.

(32:30):
They can work that new systemand it's easier for them.
Sync user interfaces and havingeasy to use back to that
employee experience is soimportant more important than
having some automation to reallyget the user bringing in and
you can see that you have thatvision than how it should look

(32:50):
like, whereas often when youtalk to the current employees
who are running that in thatdepartment, they're often stuck
in that process.
But if you can help them toachieve that next step, I think
that's very satisfying.
So when SAP basically gotthemselves a little bit out of
the market after 16 years,microsoft actually knocked on my

(33:11):
door and asked me if I want tojoin.
So it was for me a big, bigleap and I was ready.
Having done 16 years fromstrategy consulting so business
case with L'Oreal Canada, havingdone the first kind of
implementation of loyaltymanagement in Asia, one of the
first kind of trade promotionmanagement, so a lot of that

(33:33):
early innovation incubationproject, plus that kind of
end-to-end view, I was like,okay, it's time I need to learn
something new.
You can only go so much.
So I went from the SAPecosystem and jumped into
Microsoft.
So from delivery to sales.
Why, when you're doing deliveryand you have your own company,
you're doing sales, but it'sdifferent because you're getting

(33:55):
far more structured and thenyou're having a bag that you
need to carry and you need toclose.
But then it was like, oh my God, I don't know the customers, I
don't know the partner ecosystembecause it's so different.
And then you think, oh my God,I need to learn a new kind of
software system.
By the way, it's not that hard,it's all just the same

(34:15):
processes, but it really got meout of my comfort zone and that
was a really, really big growthtime in my life and the learning
that you can actually take allthat implementation.
I show up as a trusted advisorto the customers because I speak
the language back, I cantranslate and it doesn't matter.

(34:38):
They actually don't care whatkind of software system in the
end it needs to reflect theirgoals and what they want to
achieve and their processes.
That started to get me thecrowd.
And when within Microsoft, wehave this kind of expert selling
teams, especially when youthink about new incubation
products and we had therelationship or partnership with

(35:02):
Adobe, with Microsoft, and theywere looking for someone to be
that kind of expert seller inthat customer experience or
MarTech piece or MarTech piece.
That was the move from NewZealand to Germany where I was
the CTO of that partnership, andthen going into sales
management and then salesstrategy and it was a really

(35:23):
great time actually one of mybest times working with that
kind of global team.
We were six people all acrossthe world coming together and we
did strategy, we did testing,we executed, we won, you know,
new customers, we went to eventslike Adobe Summit Speaker, and
that was then the stepping stonefor where I am at now at

(35:46):
Microsoft.

Klara (35:47):
I love your description of kind of the end-to-end career
.
It seems like you really hadalmost every single role when it
comes to CRM management.
You've kind of seen it fromimplementation to delivery, to
obviously having your ownconsulting firm, to jumping into
sales.
So I appreciate you kind ofmentioning even that fear you

(36:08):
mentioned you have done some ofsales, but to like pure sales
roles, from my experience Ialways thought delivery people
are fantastic sales.
It just requires just a smallpivot.
But because you already knowall the things that go into
implementing, you understand thewhole process.
Really jumping into sales isjust 5%, 10% reframing towards

(36:28):
the customer, how you ask themthe question, which you already
typically know from experience,what the pain points are and
what you need to ask them.
So I love what you mentionedabout that progression.
When you look back, youhighlighted a few roles that you
seem very passionate about, butanything else you want to
specifically point to that wereeither roles or experiences that

(36:52):
helped you sharpen some of theskills, and they may have been
either things that you have wonand were great, or sometimes I
think it's the hard times andsome of the failures or mistakes
that refine our skills evenmore, some of the things that
perhaps come a bit harder to us,that we had to learn through

(37:13):
some of the tougher experiences.

Nicole (37:15):
When I look at my good times and a really great project
was actually that project inAmsterdam which you know.
It was my first reallyimplementation project and I was
given at the beginning thatconfigurator role.
But they could see the talentwhen I can talk.
So within four months Ibasically got to be that lead

(37:35):
consultant.
Immense of growth.
I think when you're younger youtake these risks easier, yeah,
and you just go where else.
Nowadays you think, oh my God,all went wrong.
But when I look back, that wasamazing, because it's not only
that.
We worked hard, we played hard.

(37:56):
Think back, that was when?
Was it 2001?
Money was not an object.
We had Greenfield Project,which costs millions of dollars.
If you think about an interface, we built that interface.
If you need something, you'regoing.
So that type of project beingpart of that, that was pure

(38:17):
international project, not onlyfrom the consultants but from
the customer.
The person who was responsiblefor supply chain management came
up with Australia, the one forCRM, for marketing, was in the
Netherlands, the one for saleswas out of the UK.
So getting knowing that andseeing that kind of experience
and your growth and what you canachieve and that somebody is

(38:40):
really believing in you, I foundthat was really good.
The other one was for L'OrealCanada.
I was already the expert fortrade promotion management and
there was hardly anyone aroundthe world which had a lot of
that knowledge and they lookedfor someone doing a business
case and I actually did that asa contractor, the site while I

(39:02):
was finishing my PhD and havingkids, by the way.
So think about you know what doyou get out of?
What's the priority?
But being there, knowing thatyou're a real expert and
believing in you, and that isactually that expertise and that
reputation opens up doors foryou.
And I know there was inleadership principles.

(39:24):
There was someone who saideither you're an expert in
reputation or you're goingreally general management kind
of thing.
But people need to decide atone point.
And I think, going back toreflecting on my career, I need
that kind of being an expert andimmerse myself in it, because
that opens my door.

(39:45):
I need that grounding formyself to be confident and
really be able to drive that andthat I can run this kind of
strategic process.
So that was the second bigthing, I think, from an
experience perspective andlearning is you learn from

(40:05):
failures and where things arenot going that well I would say,
especially when I moved fromSAP into the Microsoft ecosystem
and you come into a role I wasthe only one in New Zealand the
first one who had that role.
So you then need to connectthat to other people.

(40:25):
You don't have that role modeland then you're doing a lot of
things not right.
So you think, like doing sales,oh my God, the customer is
selling and you're forecastingit that it's closing and they're
like far away because youdidn't ask you have budget, what
is your timeline?
Who's your executive sponsorfor that?
So these things which you thenlearn in the hardcore, because

(40:48):
it's like the sales managementcomes down on you and saying,
hey, where are you and what youcan do.
The last recent kind of changeand I think a lot of us in
technology went through it atthe moment that's this kind of
restructuring that's happening,where a lot of investments in

(41:08):
tech companies shift, so you getactually restructured.
Shift so you get actuallyrestructured.
In my mind, I was responsiblein business application for
low-code martech technology,fraud and mixed reality and they
were like no, you're going anddoing cross-solutions, so how do
you take that on Now?

(41:29):
We talked about having thatexpertise.
Now you should be looking afterthe whole kind of end-to-end
solution.
How do you deal with that?
It's not that they don't lookfor you for this expertise, but
the go-to-market expertise.
And how do you deal with I don'tknow what's coming.
You have these layoffs.

(41:50):
Are you the next one?
And how do you deal with that?
Internally, to focus on whatyou can do, what is what you can
influence, driving basicallytowards somebody else's vision.
Before I, because of beingexpert, I had my vision and I
could then tell that to mypeople down into Raleigh.
And now you're there Okay, whatis the vision?

(42:12):
And you look up and you wait tocome and it's like don't wait,
build it out yourself, becausethat is really what is a leader
about that you create thatvision, that you create that
clarity, that you're goingthrough ambiguous situation and
create energy, positive energyfor your people, and to learn

(42:33):
that.
Yeah, so that was quite a biglearning from my side recently.

Klara (42:39):
I love especially the last one you mentioned, Nicole,
because I think there's manypeople nowadays going through
the same the uncertainty andambiguity, whether it is
actually across the world, likethe macroeconomic, the wars that
are going on, the economicinstability, the headwinds and

(42:59):
tailwinds that people see indifferent industries, the
turbulence within.
I feel there's a lot of peoplethat I see posts even online.
There's just so much going onand it's hard to distill or
filter through what their ownfocus should be, which is very
similar to what you haddescribed in the last role.

(43:21):
So can you drill down a littlebit more into that, Some of the
learnings you have from thatspecifically, or what things you
have implemented to thrive inthat role?

Nicole (43:31):
The first thing I think you need to ask what is the
vision of your higher people?
In my sense, the VP and we werea completely newly founded
department.
Yeah, with a VP leader fromoutside coming into Microsoft
and then some strong underneathpeople supporting that.

(43:52):
So the GM level, I had newpeople.
So learning, first of all, whatare they thinking, where they
want to go, a lot of talk andintegration, understanding where
they're coming from, because Ithink a lot of issues we are
having is because ofcommunication gaps, and it's not
because you said something andI did.

(44:14):
It's just both worlds, bothsides, can actually be true.
Yeah, because of that kind ofupbringing.
So how do you get thatcommunication going?
How do you then, not only withyour upper level management, but
also with your team, how do youbring them along?
And for me, things was likebringing them together on site.

(44:36):
Unfortunately, we couldn't dothat.
So how can you, where actuallyin-person relationships are so
important, how can you stillcreate a sense of belonging when
you're getting put together?
So how do you build team morale?
How do you bring them with you?
So having workshops together,just thinking about trying to
solve a problem.
So our first problem was whatare the motions we should go

(45:00):
after Microsoft, my God, theproduct palette is so wide.
But what should we do?
And we all had some kind ofreport history and where we
worked into backward debt.
So how can we bring thattogether?
So it was brainstorming session, but then you need to look at
it from a non-biased viewpoint,from a company perspective.

(45:20):
What is the best impact?
So what are the criteria you'resetting?
So you're building the planewhile flying and trying to bring
the people along with you.
So it's a lot, a lot ofcommunication, being very open.
And I found it interestingbecause we were basically two
parallel teams and I was veryopen.

(45:40):
I said look, you came out froma product perspective X, y, z,
we will not focus on yourproduct.
Do you want to be part of thatgreat Microsoft investment, I
think, the future and how we'redoing, and you have great
go-to-market expertise.
But if that's not what you want, I help you getting another job

(46:01):
.
So driving clarity.
It sounds hard at that momentin time, but it gives them at
least an option to say where dothey want to go or not, instead
of trying to soften thatlanguage.
Oh yeah, let's see.
It's actually, in myperspective, not necessarily
good in the long run.
So I think that driving claritybeing not harsh, but clarity is

(46:27):
really being friendly andemployee friendly and then being
there and help them.
So for me, being authentic,saying, look, I'm here as well.
I don't know yet what ourmission will be, but we can
drive it together.
And then taking time foryourself.
You often so many meetings,stop that noise.

(46:49):
Take that out, because you, asa leader, need to have a vision
where you need to go.
So take that time now.
So what is it really what youwant to go after?
And then, what does it mean forthe team to put that in place?
And how should I run and itstarted in?
How do I build the team?

(47:09):
How should I get someonefocused on what?
What is our measurements?
What are the operationalstructures I need to have in
place?
While I might not need that muchkind of structure because I can
live with ambiguity, otherpeople are not, and that is
another question.
It's like, can you live in thatkind of ambiguous environment

(47:30):
which is like doing strategy forincubation products or go to
market Because, to be honest, ifthe company decides to
de-invest in it, you're gone?
So it's, how can you deal withrisk.
It has nothing to do withknowledge, it's character.
It's really how much can youdeal with it and how much can
you say okay, if that's not,then it's the next product or

(47:53):
the next thing, and I think thata lot of questions came around
that.
I think it comes down to reallythe values that you have, your
own values and if that fits withthe department or company value
.
And if you have that, Irecently learned about that
leadership within, because thenyou can water a lot of different

(48:17):
kind of situations.

Klara (48:19):
I love so many things you already mentioned, just trying
to prioritize what I want totouch on.
I love you highlighting clarity.
It reminded me a quote from Ithink it's Brené Brown, who said
clear is kind, unclear isunkind, and I think that's such
a great skill in business.
I personally resonate with ittoo and maybe to some degree I'm

(48:42):
almost too clear for asalesperson because I love to
just understand the reality.
I think if you don't know wherewe stand from reality
perspective, you can draft agood clarity.
So that's one thing I've beenalways pointing out.
Is it because my athleticupbringing because, like in
sports, you always have to know,like, what your plan is, and
skiing is individual sport, it'slike you racing against the

(49:05):
clock so there's some sense ofthis clarity and reality.
You know exactly what you didwrong.
If you don't know, your coacheswill tell you that with a clear
precision of what you have todo.
So I wonder how much of thatmaybe you even personally think
sort of connected to it and alsotying into the risk taking.
So I'm curious now we talkedabout your skiing background and

(49:27):
the playfulness and a lot ofrisk taking there, including
your moves, that you have done.
So how has that shaped you fromrisk taker?
Or, if you want to drill down alittle bit more, how would you
categorize yourself?
Because I also think likestability at least at this point
in my life it's actually not asimportant.
I just love doing like greataudacious things that haven't

(49:49):
been done, and having ambiguityand trying to figure things out
is really thrilling for me and Ijudge based on listening to you
, it's quite the same for you.
That's obviously why you'reprobably in this group and
trying to build all of thisstuff, that innovation and
trying to play with ideas andwhat fits is quite exciting.

Nicole (50:09):
I think actually two things and I would like to take
it in two parts.
So on the clarity andleadership, I think sometimes
it's the culture, because as aGerman, you're very direct.
Yeah, and you know you'redirect.
It's like, if you look at me,if you would have called me on a
phone 15 years ago, or I wouldhave called you, I would have

(50:30):
been.
I wouldn't have said hey, clara, how are you?
Blah, blah, blah.
I would just come to the pointCan you help me on X, y, z?
So that kind of very direct andgiving very direct feedback.
I think it's a culturally thingas well that, compared with
understanding what it takes, andwhile it is, it's actually

(50:50):
uncomfortable for the person whosays it.
I think it's very brown.
Clarity is kind because itmakes you feel uncomfortable and
, yes, maybe the other person atthat point in time is a little
bit shocked.
But my experience of they'recoming back at one point they're
saying, yeah, no, it's good.
And I have a former team memberwhich I had to manage out and I
found him another role and hestill thinks I was his best

(51:12):
manager.
So it's like if I wouldn't havedriven that clarity, it might
be driven further down.
But having these examples infront of you actually helps you,
because people often they knowthese things.
You know in your gut somethingis not right.
Yes.
So it is that how can you builda trusted relationship where

(51:35):
you can build on that trust andyou can be open about that and
being able to take the emotionas much as possible out of the
equation and saying let's talkabout that and going the next
step.
So that's just a little bit forme where I see that clarity and
the upbringing comes a littlebit, and then a lot of learnings
and maybe having good rolemodels who have done that.

(51:58):
Then the other question I thinkthat's actually more DNA
perspective than anything else.
I think when I look at myparents, my mom is the risk
taker, my dad is more like not,and you will not change that.
You have to have someone whopushes it.
And I think I'm, generallyspeaking, a risk taker but I

(52:19):
also like to plan.
So if I take the risk, what isthen the planning around that?
And I like new things, newinnovation which overcomes that
risk, and I think it's that whyyou know that inner, why what
you need to have to besuccessful, and then overcoming
some of the obstacles.

(52:39):
It's like that moment in timeokay, I feel like God, I'm out
of my comfort zone, but I know Ineed to do that to be happy,
because that is my higher grind.
So I think that drives a lotaround that.
That is my higher grind, so Ithink that drives a lot around
that.
But for that you really need toknow yourself and know what are
your values, what you need todrive in life.

(53:01):
Now I think over the time.
So I had two jobs that Iresigned because I was not happy
without having anything else.
So really high risk taking inthat sense.
But I believe something willcome and actually always the
next better thing and actuallythe next drive came.

(53:22):
But now I'm older, I haveteenage girls, they need to go
to university, so you're gettinginto like I'm eight years at
Microsoft.
I've never been that longbeside my own company, along in
a company.
And then you look at, oh my God, the financial, the stock
options that I have.
So it's things starting to blur.

(53:42):
The more you learn and I thinkthe older you get, the less
risks you take.
However, you feel it in yourselfand that's why I think you need
to sometimes go back to yourvalues.
So it's finding what are yourvalues.
And then do I live within thevalues that I need and you can
go left and right a little bit,don't get me wrong and you

(54:04):
always will be.
It's not 100%, but if that'snot, do I need to find another
role or do I need to go and dosomething on the side to get
that going?
That is on how I think aboutthese things, but I think it
changes the older you're getting, because under learnings like
teenagers you said it at thebeginning you know teenagers

(54:27):
doing so much crazy shit.
I missed school a lot.
I forged signatures.
Oh my God.
If I think about that, I wouldnever do that again.

Klara (54:36):
Well, I have a few thoughts actually so many
thoughts on what you said.
One I want to go back to thethrill, because I wonder if this
is the same for you.
I think risk for anyone isn'tpleasant, but what I personally
find is the thrill of chasingand creating something and the
innovation and so the wholemessy process.
It's so fun and messy sometimesand chaotic, but when you see

(55:01):
the result, like the riskconsideration just goes to the
side because you get so focusedon the creation and the fun part
of it that drives joy.
That kind of the risk-taking isthen lower priority.
I wonder if that's a similarfeeling for you.

Nicole (55:18):
Yes, it is, and I think what I'm trying to get back to
more what I enjoyed, I'mcurrently enjoying my path far
more, but it's because I letmyself go path far more, but
it's because I let myself go.
It's like just running towardsthat and not having that kind of

(55:38):
goal.
Because, to be honest, we'vetalked about my career.
None of that was really plannedlike that.
I took an opportunity and tookit on.
The thing was, when it offeredit to me, I went for it.
But I never had, oh, I want tobe this, and that I said at the
beginning I wanted to be thatstrategic consultant.
And now I am basically workingin strategy but it wasn't.

(56:00):
I want to get there.
And then it's these and thesesteps.
That's not me, but letting goand enjoying.
And that's back to theexperiences and what I think you
put it on a point, it's theexperience itself which drives
me.
And when I went into, oh, Ineed to get a VP, I need to get
that, that's actually when Ihardened in self and didn't

(56:21):
enjoy, and I think that was whenI wasn't that successful.
Then when I that playful backlike that child in, I think
that's how I would describe it,but I think it's the same thing.

Klara (56:33):
Yeah, and I love you mentioning it One of the
learnings I take from my tenniscareer.
There's many, but one of thekey ones.
I would say if I didn't careabout tennis as much, I could
have been a better tennis player, which means sometimes you try
so hard to where the trying hardcreates diminishing impact
because you're just pushing upthe hill or you're overtraining

(56:55):
that creates a whole bunch ofinjuries.
And so one of the things andincluding why I have my podcast
there's many reasons, but itcreates this 15 to 30% of a
separate identity for me andjust like playfulness side to
where I'm not just my job, Ihave like something else fun.
So that's like me taking someof the learnings from tennis

(57:16):
Cause I always felt like if Iwanted to play tennis 15 to 20%
less than I wanted to, I couldhave been a better athlete
because I would end up doingless and that doing less allows
you to be more flexible andadaptable.
And I had exactly the samefeelings, feelings when you kind
of said earlier on in my career, or maybe not, that earlier
midway through I was like, oh, Iwant to get this amount of

(57:36):
money, I want to get this job,and I always found a way to get
the title and get the money.
And then I got it and said yeah, I'm not any happier, like it
doesn't drive me satisfaction.
I think it was like importantfor me to get those points
because at that point in time Ifound it important and it was
definitely a goal and obviouslyif I wouldn't have gotten there
maybe I wouldn't have thelearning I would still wanted

(57:58):
those things.
It helped me refine sort of myjourney and how I look at next
opportunities a little bitdifferently.

Nicole (58:04):
Oh, absolutely and I think age changes as well what
you want to go after thatlearning.
So definitely.
On that I would say I'm typicalin the midlife, maybe crisis,
yeah, but my why?
It's like 10 years ago I didn'tthink about retirement.
Now I think how do I get there?
I have like 15, 17 years left.
But at one point I would liketo hone into, I think when

(58:28):
you're so stuck and so focused,I think you lose a little bit
the listening to learn.
You go to listen to argue.
I know it, I need to showcasethat and that is that what I
think, what you described andtrain, I want to get that and
you lose that playfulness andthat learning and listening from
others.
I think that's what I would sayhappened to me at that point in

(58:52):
time.

Klara (58:52):
You talked heavily about leadership.
We talked about the severaljobs you have had, the
multicultural aspect, theclarity, importance of
communication, taking risks.
But when you look at yourleadership specifically, are
there specific instances thatreally helped you refine that

(59:13):
leadership, maybe in the stageof where you're at now, or
leaders you have had, or evenleadership principles that you
have found these work reallywell for me, if I have a team,
this is what I share with theteams as far as how I operate.

Nicole (59:27):
The two main kind of leadership styles I have.
Just naturally I think we haveall within to be successful, but
the two which I have mostly isthe visionary leadership, or the
leadership upfront is reallydriving that vision and then
telling that and put your teamalong to that.
And I think it's also down toinspiring them to get to where

(59:51):
it goes and then putting it intobuilding blocks so that they
can actually what does that mean?
Because if I say Microsoftmission is helping everybody to
have a better work and place, etcetera, what does that mean?
So that is then breaking itdown and then getting them to
work towards that and measuringtowards.
And I think the KPIs need to beoften in place for them,

(01:00:16):
because a lot of people actuallyneed structure.
And the second is, for me, thatmore coaching style, and behind
so I have very senior people.
They're all director level, soI don't need to teach them
something.
Sometimes you need to go backinto the teaching mode, but I
like the coaching side of thehouse.

(01:00:38):
So how do I ask the rightquestion to help them solve a
problem?
To be honest, because we dealwith a lot of problems.
You have been in sales strategyas well.
It's basically, you'reconstantly dealing with problems
.
How do you help them?
Because that is how they learnand come together.
And the third thing is, which Ithink is super, super important

(01:00:59):
we're not doing enough.
We don't celebrate successbecause we constantly talk about
the problem and the negativeand this is not working, that is
not working.
We forget actually what weachieved.
So, looking back andcelebrating success to really
help the team but yourself, tocreate that kind of positive
energy, and looking how much didyou achieve?

(01:01:20):
Because it's nothingoperational, it's not a task
list.
Yes, the task list is nice.
I really like them sometimes,but it's not with that higher
kind of goal and mission thatyou would like to achieve.
So that's the areas where I'mreally good at what I think,
where I need to learn more andwhere I think a lot of the sales
strategists is because we'reworking in a very complex matrix

(01:01:44):
organization and you cannot doit yourself.
You need to have marketing, youhave product group, you have
customer success, you have thefield, you have finance and you
need to bring your ideas through.
So that kind of leadership fromthe side, or driving influence
without authority, is a huge,huge aspect, and I think that is

(01:02:07):
one of the things which Iconstantly work with the team on
which I think is superimportant to be successful.
But it's super hard becauseit's actually not looking at
your own.
What you want to achieve islooking at the other one,
understanding where that is andfinding that common ground and

(01:02:27):
driving that through.
And it's that, I think, is ahard thing.
So that's for me, the area whatI in my roles is super
important, what is, for my team,important.
What I don't like on leadershipis leadership with fear.
That is not where I thrive.
The other one is supermicromanaging and you're just

(01:02:51):
basically getting told what todo.
That is not an area where Ilend well, because I'm quite
strong headed.
And the last thing is really youneed to be in the values.
I'm going back in the valuesbecause that needs to shine
through and when you're in yourvalues, you're being authentic

(01:03:11):
and you can build that trustedrelationship.
If you don't have that, tryingto build that up and it's over
time, it's not a thing thatcomes.
People give you a certain kindof trust, so how do you not blow
that?
So have their back.
Help them.
You know getting up.
Help them with executivepresence.
Everybody wants to grow, butbeing precise, help them, you
know, getting up, help them withexecutive presence.
Everybody wants to grow.

(01:03:32):
But being precise, being short,very hard topic, you know,
because we're working on 10things but we want to say the 10
things, no, what are the three?
So things like that which Ithink makes the difference from
a leadership.

Klara (01:03:45):
I love leading values, something that Tim, actually all
the top leaders always say that.
I hear them talk about it.
If you're true to your corevalues again, you'll be
authentic and people will feelit.
It will come out Celebratingsuccess.
I think it's super important.
I so suck at Nicole.
Do you have any tips?
How do you celebrate success?
I've been trying to establishespecially the mini wins,

(01:04:07):
because I don't celebrateanything big, but I think every
day there should be something weshould celebrate and I was
thinking I'm going to celebratethis or that and I never do.
Do you have any tips for that?

Nicole (01:04:16):
Yep, so I have Friday mornings, I have my team meeting
and we start our team meetingon celebrating success and
giving affirmation on somebodywho has done that good, and then
I ask them to send that tothese people.
That's a nice small tip.

Klara (01:04:31):
It also reminds people to reflect on the collaboration.
So I actually think it probablyhelps with, like this,
impactful leadership and kind ofunderstanding what other people
have goals and need to do,because I think that's a skill
you can perfect forever.
I think we're never perfect.
It's like never endingcontinuum of growth in that but

(01:04:52):
it probably helps with that too.

Nicole (01:04:53):
Yeah, but it also helps with, because we're always
looking at the next problem butsaying, hey, we have finished a
pitch deck, let's celebrate that.
You also let people know onwhat work you have done and you
can do great work.
If nobody knows about it, it'snot impactful.
Very true, can do great work.

Klara (01:05:09):
If nobody knows about it, it's not impactful, very true.
So moving to leadership, maybespecifically to women, I know
Microsoft is actually a greatcompany when it comes to having
many women in leadershippositions, maybe one of the ones
that people look at the most.
When it comes to the diversity,from your vantage point, what

(01:05:30):
are some of the things that wewomen can practice more or be
better at?
Again, you had vast experiencein your own personal consulting,
but also big companies throughvarious different roles and
cultures, so I'm even wonderingfrom this I don't know if I can
say no cultural perspective orkind of all cultures perspective

(01:05:51):
.
Maybe that's what it is thatyou've worked within, anything
you have observed that standsout to you?

Nicole (01:05:57):
Yeah, I think we need role models for other roles in
all kind of leadership roles andeven outside of leadership,
just showing up as potentials.
I give you a good example.
You talked about Microsoft.
When I was at Microsoft NewZealand, we had the head of
Microsoft New Zealand was femaleand she had females in her

(01:06:19):
leadership team.
None of them had kids.
When I look at the other sideat Microsoft US and corporate
and you look there, so, from AmyHood, who has kids, the CFO,
from our chief people officer,who's actually a single mom yeah
, the next level, you have woman, but woman with kids.

(01:06:41):
So, something which I foundimportant I always wanted to
make a career and have kids andit's actually not that easy, and
everybody who wants to talkmore about it ping me on
LinkedIn.
I'm happy to share.
But it's like having these rolemodels is, I think, good for me
.
That's the first thing.
Then, being open, and let metell you an example being open

(01:07:03):
and driving girls through doingdifferent things.
When my girls were in school inNew Zealand, they were in a
private progressive school.
Yes, it was private, but theystarted coding in grade two and
they took from the school partin robotics competition and my
oldest actually went twice tothe New Zealand national

(01:07:26):
competition from 10 years on.
We have a Lego robot at home.
We have a 3-3 printer at home.
She built that in the roboticsclub we moved to Germany.
There was a robotics club boysonly she didn't feel included,
probably knew far more about therobots itself, but since then

(01:07:48):
this topic is dead and the robotis in the garage sitting there.
So we need these kinds ofthings.
So there is an interest andthere are people there, but we
need to open it up and I'm not afan of quotas for women in
leadership etc.
But maybe we need it and I wouldencourage every woman who does

(01:08:12):
something.
Don't stay with yourself andsaying I'm good, talk about it,
share it, because I'm prettysure you inspire other women to
follow and think okay, it can bedone and I can have a life that
fulfills me and I can give thatto my further kids and for all
the dads who are listening Ifyou have children and girls,

(01:08:34):
think about what model you wantto have for your girls.
If you want to have these kindof old boys club, which we're
seeing a lot in companies stillthere, but it needs to be
changed, I think, from downthere.

Klara (01:08:46):
I love that you mentioned it.
If I can actually pause anddrill a little bit deeper,
because I have been thinkingabout this for quite a while and
I personally am not finding theanswer to it and I feel the
same way.
I love seeing women thrive andpowerful leaders obviously
having conversations withamazing leaders like you and
many others I have recently hadon the podcast too, and so the

(01:09:09):
more I see women thriving inwhatever they choose to thrive
at, whatever industry orbusiness or profession or sports
, it's just fantastic and Ithink to myself why my brain
just wants to see this, and I'malso tempted always to see how
they're doing things, see what Ican borrow and adapt and how
they're going about things.

(01:09:30):
Do you think men are the same?
Because you obviously have ahousehold of women, or maybe
even from women perspective, whydo you think we're so driven
towards seeing other womenthrive as an inspiration for our
own greatness and next progress?
I think we are different to men.

Nicole (01:09:49):
I believe we are far more emotional.
Now we can argue is it theupbringing or not?
I don't know.

Klara (01:09:57):
But I definitely think or it could be the hormonal cycle
we actually just talked about itwith one of my friends.
I think that goes into it too.
So I think it's both.

Nicole (01:10:05):
But I think there is a difference just really from our
DNA and how we build up, and Ithink we work differently, we
think differently.
Yeah, it's like when I explainwhere you want to go, I talk
more in pictures.
Hey, here at the house, withthe green light, you know, with
that green kind of things,that's where you're not in 200
meters you need to go right.

(01:10:26):
So I think think there wasdifference on how we talk, I
think.
So that's the first thing.
I think we have far more what Iwould call imposter syndrome.
That's maybe more theupbringing.
Yeah, so that when we're seeingother women, we can say, okay,
if they have done it, we can doit as well.
But I read the other day astatistic or someone told me you

(01:10:50):
see, you have female founders,like having a hair salon, having
this, but not big corporations.
So why is that?
I think, from an inspiring andseeing the way somebody has done
it and you could actually couldtalk, I would love for people
coming more to me and ask me,because I definitely am afraid
to ask people for help and Ithink we need to come over as

(01:11:13):
strong being as women and you'regetting drawn that if you want
to have a career and there's somuch more which people can help
you and being that vulnerable, Ifound that so refreshing,
having seen that, and that ishelping a lot as well.
That is helping a lot as wellwhere I think we women actually

(01:11:35):
again since I had women leaderswho were very more like ice cold
, like you would say they tryingto be male leaders and getting
even more male than them, andthen it's really hardcore.

Klara (01:11:44):
That's what I don't like but, I don't have the answer
yeah, the leadership styles aredefinitely just another thing to
get into and I've seen allsides.
I actually think sometimes,because there's so few women,
the higher up you go, the moreyou risk being so perfect and so

(01:12:05):
strict, to where you becomemore sometimes like hardcore, as
you mentioned almost more onthe side than men, just because
I think we put our own standardsand we lose a little bit of
what we talked about earlier,like the playfulness.
So that's what I have seenactually some other leaders like
how do you maintain thisplayfulness and just shake

(01:12:25):
things off easier?
We talked actually about that alittle bit with Eve, my other
guest on the podcast, who alsoworks at Microsoft.
She had some fantastic tips.
So maybe last couple ofquestions to close off with,
2024 is here.
We talked about all theturbulent times actually that
are going on on all fronts,anything you would want to share

(01:12:49):
with listeners, that you wouldwant to inspire them to be doing
more of or less of, even, maybe, things that you're trying out
nowadays and that are workingout for you.

Nicole (01:12:58):
The world is changing so much.
So, being open, listen to learn, and regardless of the
situation you're in, and don'tlisten to argue or think you
know it all.
We are all not perfect perfectand we can improve.
And especially as so many newtechnologies coming in and we
Germans are always no, no, no,no, no, especially there Try to

(01:13:20):
understand the perspective ofthe other person's half and if
they could be learning for youand us, and I think then the
world would be more nice and itactually can shortcut your
career.
But I think also, from where weare with the world, politics,
et cetera, we would have a nicerplace.

Klara (01:13:40):
Excellent and from technology perspective that made
me think about your answertechnology Anything you're
personally excited about, nicole.

Nicole (01:13:48):
I'm thinking a lot about how AI can change and how we
think about go-to-market.
I actually think CRM systemswill probably be disruptive
because actually nothing haschanged.
We have still the same process,but it's not the same linear
process.
Customers go like that and Ithink there we will see
disruption on how AI can changedesign and go to market and how

(01:14:13):
can we listen, use data toactually predict that.

Klara (01:14:17):
I think that's where I'm excited about to learn and I'm
digging into All that and whatyou had mentioned earlier about
CRM, I can see how that wouldpotentially drastically change
the way business is done,strategies created and companies
operate, because that literallylies on the intersection of
data and all of the otherdecisions that the business
needs to make and execute on.

(01:14:40):
Yeah and.

Nicole (01:14:41):
I think also we were.
If you look at that, we werehaving very on-prem.
We went into cloud withsubscription.
I think the world is movingwith AI far more into
consumption, which meanspreviously, if you think of
technology sales cycle, you hada little bit of marketing, heavy
sales and then a little bitcustomer success.
The marketing side goes moreinto sales.

(01:15:02):
Customer success is gettingmore important because you're
only getting paid if theyconsume.
So that will change a lot aswell, I like those predictions.

Klara (01:15:11):
Maybe we need to do a separate podcast on that.
I didn't create enough time.
That sounds super exciting, sowhat's the best way to reach out
to anyone who wants to connect?
Nicole, I'll add your LinkedInprofile to the episode with your
permission, but is there anyother way to follow you or email
you?

Nicole (01:15:29):
the best is really linkedin.
Send me a connect request,mention the podcast and actually
I have my email address and thecontact details is open.
Yes, you can send me an emailthen from there as well, but
start with linkedin.
That's where it's the easiestway to find me excellent.

Klara (01:15:47):
Well, thank you so much for the time and your
conversation, nicole.
It was great learning aboutyour Grand Slam journey from
Germany skiing to being theleader at Microsoft, perhaps
changing the world with AI andCRM and software management
platforms.
So I'm curious what's going tocome out next.

Nicole (01:16:04):
Yeah, thank you, clara, for having me, if you enjoyed
this episode.

Klara (01:16:08):
I want to ask you to please do two things that would
help me greatly.
One, please consider leaving areview on Apple Podcasts,
spotify or any other podcastingplatform that you use to listen
to this episode.
Two, please share this podcastwith a friend who you believe
might enjoy it as well.
It is a great way to remindsomeone you care about them by

(01:16:29):
sharing a conversation theymight be interested in.
Thank you for listening.

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Klara Jagosova

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