81. Dre Baldwin︱Unlocking Success through Communication, Content Creation, and Marketing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dre (00:00):
Force multipliers are skills and abilities and
outcomes that, when they happen,they make everything else that
you have better.
They basically multiply allyour abilities.
So we talked earlier aboutcommunication, conversational
skills, conversational skills,are a force multiplier because
if you get better atcommunicating, it makes
everything else you do better.

(00:20):
There's no downside to gettingbetter at communicating.
Building relationships is aforce multiplier.
If you know more people who areabout something and they like
you, it only makes everythingelse you do better.
There's no downside to it.
And just having energy,confidence those are force
multipliers.
Your ability to sell is a forcemultiplier.
What I would tell people isthink about that doing the thing

(00:41):
versus selling the thing.
And it's really important,especially as you get into the
professional world where moneyis being exchanged, that your
ability to sell the thing ismore important than your ability
to do the thing, because we'veall seen people who might not
even be that good at doing, butthey're good at selling, so they
get opportunity.
So learning how to sell yourstuff and sell yourself is a
force multiplier skill that canhelp you move forward a lot

(01:03):
faster than just getting betterat doing it.

Klara (01:06):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the
Grand Slam Journey podcast,where we discuss the Grand Slam
journey of our lives sports,life after sports, and growing
our skills and leadership inwhatever we decide to put our
minds into For me personally,areas of business and technology
, and for my guest today, dreBaldwin entrepreneurship,

(01:28):
coaching and speaking.
Dre Baldwin had spent nineyears as a professional
basketball player.
He's the author of 31 books.
He had pioneered athleteworkout videos in 2006 when
YouTube started.
He's also a four-time TEDxspeaker.
I had to take a little bit ofbreak from podcasting because I

(01:49):
had started a new role, and newbeginnings typically require
much more time, effort and focus, and I'm restarting where I
finished.
This conversation is acontinuation of my previous
episode.
Dre and I dive deeper intoperfectionism, the art of
content creation, and we discussthe secret sauce behind podcast

(02:11):
fame.
We debunk some myths, such asshorter videos are always better
, arguing that gripping contenttramps length every time.
We discuss behind the scenes ofediting, interview styles and
the magic of strategic marketing.
Dre shares some more insightsfrom Division III basketball

(02:32):
player to professional baller tobecoming a thriving
entrepreneur.
We talk about the importance ofconfidence, seizing
opportunities and standing outin a crowded field.
I hope you enjoy the lesson.
If you do, please considerleaving a review on Apple
Podcasts, spotify or any otherpodcasting platform.

(02:54):
This conversation is alsoavailable in video on the Grand
Slam Journey YouTube channel.
This is your host, klaraYegoshova.
Thank you for tuning in and nowI bring you Dre Baldwin.
Hello Dre, welcome to the GrandSlam Journey podcast for our
conversation number two, andhappy July 5th.
How was your 4th of July?

Dre (03:15):
Hey, clara, thank you for having me on again Excited for
this conversation.
4th of July was great.
I was in South Florida, so itwas hot and humid and sunny as
usual.
Sometimes it rains, but itdidn't rain yesterday and same
thing today, so I like it.

Klara (03:29):
I guess steady forecast for the summer doesn't vary that
much.
We get it for about nine months, not just the summer, that's
true, and the winter in Florida,I think, is the best time in
Florida.
I always enjoy traveling there.
December, january, I think, isthe most time in Florida.
I always enjoy traveling there.
December, january I think it'sthe most popular months for
people to come in warm up fromthe winter.

Dre (03:51):
Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit cooler, but still sunny,
still warm.
That's why I'm here.

Klara (03:56):
Nice, and so we're building up on our previous
conversation.
Thank you for cleaning time.
I had a lot of fun talking toyou about your nine-year
basketball professional career,being author of 31 books and
pioneer of athlete workouts.
You started in 2006 on YouTube,so we talked just about that as

(04:18):
well.
As four-time TEDx speaker, I'mcurious where this conversation
takes us.
We could build on collapsingtime frame, which is something
we have ended with during lastconversation.
I keep pondering about andovercoming perfectionism.
It's still something Ipersonally struggle with, and I
think a lot of people do, butlet's see where it goes and,

(04:39):
before we dive in, anything elseyou want to add to the intro,
dre, that we haven't mentionedin the previous conversation, or
I didn't mention now.

Dre (04:47):
No, it sounds good.
Hopefully I can live up to it.
Hopefully I did the first timearound.

Klara (04:51):
I'm sure.
Yeah, it will be fun.
It was for me, so hopefully ittranslates to the listeners.
So curious collapsingtimeframes is something we ended
up with during our lastconversation ended up with
during our last conversation.
I've been personally thinkingabout it quite a bit and it

(05:12):
relates a lot to my podcast, asnow I started a new job which
requires much more time andeffort, especially at the
beginning, and one of the thingspersonally I'm going to share
that I haven't gotten over isediting, which I became better
at.
But I have this focus Irealized of perfectionism, where
I have to listen to everysingle conversation and kind of
go through before I launch it.
And I know you produce a lot ofcontent, so I'm even curious,

(05:35):
if you had this at the beginning, how you overcame it and how do
you approach it now with evenyour huge amount of content
creation.

Dre (05:43):
Good question.
So a couple of things.
We have different types ofcontent.
So my show is a solo show.
Like I'm looking at my, I'mgoing to record something today.
So I know when I'm recordingthat there's not that much that
needs to be edited because I'mthe one who did all the talking.
But you don't have control overwhat I do on your show, so you

(06:03):
don't have control over if Isneeze or I say something and
say, hey, I want to go back overthat, or I don't like the
answer I gave, or something thatyou want to edit out.
You don't control the otherperson and every time you bring
another person into any system,you add another variable which
leads to more work.
This is just acid complexity ofany system when you add people.
So for your show it's a littlebit different.

(06:24):
Ideally, of course, you willjust be able to record it all
the way through and just put itout as it is, and hopefully, if
your guests are polished and youas well, then you don't have to
do too much editing.
So a couple of things you coulddo is you could just say, hey,
I'm just going to put it out asit is and we'll just put it out
as it goes.
Hopefully there's no.
If there's a big like screw upsomewhere, then you can go and

(06:45):
edit that out.
You can just take a mark likehey, 24 minutes, we got to fix
that.
But other than that you canjust put it out like that.
Other thing you can do is havesomebody else do it.
You don't have to do theediting yourself, like I
personally.
Even if I had an interview showlet's say I was doing
interviews every day and Iwanted to put it out every day I
would not do the editing myself, because editing is just not in

(07:07):
my zone of genius.
I would focus on doing what Ido best, which would be the
conversation, and then I wouldhand that task off to something
or someone else.
I'm sure the next couple ofyears there'll probably be some
artificial intelligence softwarethat can edit conversations for
us just as well as a human does.
I don't think it's quite thereyet, but I think it's coming.
So that's what I would do if Iwas in your situation, doing

(07:29):
your type of show, and overall,even if I did interview a person
like a long form interview, forthe most part I'm just going to
put it out as it happened.
I don't want to have to maketoo many edits to a conversation
because that again is averyconsuming task.

Klara (07:46):
And you touched base on something I've been pondering
about.
We talked a little bit aboutthe differences of men and women
even during our lastconversation, and my view and
observation is that, on average,men are actually much better in
this more spontaneousconversation and launching

(08:07):
things, as is, I find, morewomen, even podcasters and the
podcasters I listen to have atendency to more over edit and
sound way too polished, whichI've been struggling with myself
from the beginning.
I've gotten better.
I'm a work in progress, likeeverybody else is a work in
progress, but what's your viewon it?

(08:30):
Are you seeing it as well inyour profession or when you're
coaching businesses on growthand some of the differences
between the on averageperfectionism for men versus
women?

Dre (08:43):
Interesting question.
I have found it actually apretty even split between both
when it comes to theperfectionism, if you want to
call it that, or just makingsure that it looks or feels a
certain way.
I see with.
I find that with podcasters,for example, I do a good amount
of media appearances that bothmen and women will have their,

(09:06):
their.
Many of them will have theirwhole process of they want to
have a conversation before werecord and then, when it's
recording, they have this wholething and they tell me all the
ways that they like to do it andhow they start and stop, and
I'm going to do the introbeforehand and I'm men do it
just as much as women do it, butI don't find that it's
predominantly women doing onething and predominantly men

(09:27):
doing another thing.
I think, specifically because ofthe podcasting space, which is
getting bigger and bigger andthere are more people consuming
podcasts, more people are justputting more thought into how
they're doing it, how they'resetting it up, what it's
sounding like if they're doingvideo, what it looks like,
making sure it gets to the rightaudience, et cetera.

(09:47):
I think people are just puttingmore, I guess to say, thoughts
and more resources into tryingto make the best show that they
can possibly make, although,despite all of that, I think the
bottom line for any type ofcontent out there is, as has
always been, the quality of thecontent is the king.
So you can have the bestproduction in the world and come
up with this system and processthat you got from some

(10:10):
conference that you went to.
If your content sucks and itdoesn't matter, and the quality
of the content is always goingto be the main thing, and that's
something that I'm known fromthe very beginning.
When I first started puttingout content, I didn't have
anyone editing on my behalf andI knew that my recording and
editing skills were very average.
They were less than average, butI still had a significant

(10:31):
audience, significant sizeaudience, because of the quality
of what I was doing and who Iwas giving it to.
They wanted it and I was givingthem exactly what they needed.
So my stuff didn't have to beperfectly polished and it wasn't
but I knew what I was talkingabout.
When I started talking orstarted demonstrating, like on
basketball, for example, Ireally knew my stuff and when
people saw that that was allthey needed, how did you uncover

(10:52):
?

Klara (10:52):
because right now when I look at podcasters, they always
coach.
Well, you got to find youraudience or really any
influencers.
You're going to find yourtopics that you're expert in and
you sort of end up serving thatmessage to that audience too,
so they know what they listen to, what to go for guidance to you
for.
Did you have that clarity fromthe beginning when you started

(11:15):
your YouTube channel, or was ita little bit of serendipity,
maybe luck, that you said youknow, I'm doing this, I'm going
to record it?
As you mentioned in theprevious conversation, the
YouTube was just starting, somaybe there wasn't as much
competition back as you caughtit quite early on and it seemed
like you were able to hit asuccess from the beginning, or

(11:36):
how much refinement you had todo to the message at the
beginning.

Dre (11:40):
Combination of both.
So when I first got on YouTube,clara, of course YouTube was
pretty new, so it wasn't thatmany people publishing and also
weren't that many peoplewatching at first, because not
many people were going to theInternet to get material.
That was a newer thing.
But I was putting material outbecause I only had one angle.
So it's not like I was thinkingOK, here are 27 different

(12:01):
things I can do, let's find theone that works.
It was I'm playing basketballevery day.
I go to the gym every day.
I put a video up there.
Really, as I think we talkedabout this in the first
conversation, it was just avideo that I had.
I just put it on YouTube justso it could be online, not
because I thought a bunch ofpeople would come watch it,
because nobody knew who I wasanyway.
But once I saw people werewatching it, I realized well, I

(12:21):
go to the gym every day anyway.
Why don't I just take the stuffthat I do in the gym and put it
on YouTube?
I can get a little bit ofattention from it.
We all have egos, so let me geta little bit of attention.
I wasn't thinking business, Iwasn't thinking being a brand, I
wasn't thinking influencer, weweren't even using those phrases
back then so I was just puttingthe material out and then, once
I saw that the players liked itand they were getting a benefit

(12:43):
from it, that's why I keptdoing it.
And as far as the things that Italk about, once I started doing
more like talking videos andtalking about mindset and my
approach and things that mighthave some people agree or
disagree, more polarizingmaterial.
I wasn't doing it because I waslooking for an audience.
I was just putting out what Iwas putting out.
I wasn't doing it as a.

(13:05):
It was not like I was an onlinepersona.
So the stuff that I say online,anybody who looks up my stuff or
reads any of my stuff, that'sthe same thing I would say to
you if there were no cameras.
Like, I'm not doing it for theinternet.
This is just the way I am, justthe way I talk and the things
that I think, whatever I believeor whatever perspective that I
had.
And I do it the opposite way,clara, from kind of how you were

(13:26):
framing it there is that I'mgoing to put my message out as
it is and I want the people whoresonate with the message to
find me, rather than me puttingthe messages out, trying to find
the people who agree with it.
I'm going to put it out and thepeople who agree, they come
over to my world.
So that's my approach, andstill is my approach to this day
.

Klara (13:42):
And you produce a big amount of content.
Some of the videos that I'vebeen following you for a while
it's even you take every singleminute of the day and try to see
how you can add someeffectiveness and efficiency.
I know it seems like you'redriving, maybe from the office
to home and you're in a car andjust talking out loud, so you
can take that time to get yourmind out to people as you're

(14:07):
driving, with some ideas.
Is that totally spontaneous orhow much do you plan on which
days you record what or how doesthat message sound?
Obviously, you've been doing itfor several years, so I'm sure
you get practice and you getmuch better from, let's say, day
one when you started to now.
But what does that process looklike for you currently?

Dre (14:29):
When I first started putting material out, say for
basketball, I would just go tothe gym and just try to think of
something.
And then when I got the ideaprobably around so I first
started about 2005, about 2009,which is when I finally got or I
first got monetization onYouTube.
That was right.
When YouTube first startedletting you make ad revenue from
videos, I decided I was goingto put a video out every day.

(14:53):
The challenge was I knew Icouldn't just come up with a new
idea every time I came to thegym.
So I said let me start doingthe work ahead of time, let me
do my homework and start writingdown all my ideas so when I get
to the gym I can just look atmy list and I can just pick
something.
That's when I startedstrategizing for it.
And what I came up with as abasketball player and you
probably could, probably youcould probably do this in tennis

(15:14):
, as you play tennis is I cameup with kind of like a content
tree.
So anytime I came up with anidea, I could plug that idea
into my tree of drills.
That would produce 30 differentdrills.
So one idea put into my treewould produce 30 pieces of
content.
So I started doing that inbasketball.

(15:35):
That's the reason why I wasable to make thousands and
thousands of videos, because Ionly had to come up with one
idea in order to produce 30pieces of content.
So that's what I started doingwith basketball.
So I figured I don't knowtennis enough to even give you
an example.
But let's just say I'm playingbasketball and I decide I'm
going to do a, I'm going tocross the ball over in front of
me and then I'm going to take astep backwards.
Now that's the idea Crossover,step back.

(15:58):
Now I can do that crossover,step back.
Drop to the basket, shoot theball with your left hand, then
I'll do the same thing with myright hand.
Then I'll do that move crossover, step backwards, shoot a jump
shot going to the left, thenI'll do the same thing.
Shoot a jump shot going to theright, then I'll do a crossover.
Step back, crossover, shoot ajump shot.
Crossover.
Shoot a jump shot the other way.
Lay up this way, lay up thatway.

(16:20):
So you how this can build, andI built it out to this 30
different moves.
Any idea can plug into each oneof these 30 moves.
And that's how we'll come upwith the concept.
So that's how I was able tomake so many there.
Then, as far as the mindsettalking business material that I
do these days, like my soloshow, is, I keep a document.

(16:40):
I have three Google Docs that Ikeep open on my desktop, open
on my Chrome browser all thetime.
So I have one which is a listof every topic I've ever done.
So I have them all listed outso I know what number is each
episode.
Then I have a list of contentthat I want to record but I
haven't recorded yet.
So I'm always adding to thatlist because I'm always.
Every time I record something,I take something off.

(17:01):
So you always want to keep thatlist full, so you always have
new material.
And then I have a list ofeverything that I've already
done, so I make sure I don't dothe same thing twice, and then I
can just go back through thosenotes and I can use that for
other materials.
So I have those three documentsnow, so I plan that stuff out
and I always want to have acertain amount planned before
the week, so I know I can havethe material to report, because
I don't want to get to a pointwhere, let's say, after we get

(17:23):
done talking, today, let's say Iwant to start recording and I
go to my document and it's empty.
I don't have any content.
So now I've got to come up withthe content before I can start
recording.
So I want to.
I call that doing your homework.
So I want to do my homework andhave the material ready.
So if and when I decide tostart recording and say I want
to record three episodes today,I got to have at least three

(17:45):
episodes in that document readyto go.
So that's my process to thisday.
Now the other thing that youmentioned is the spontaneous
stuff.
Let's say I'm in a car driving,I'll just record a video.
Those I don't plan.
I don't plan those becauseusually those videos are not
that long.
It'll be anywhere from five tomaybe 15 minutes.
So it could be something I justthought of in the moment.

(18:09):
It could be an extension ofsomething that I've talked about
in another place, becauseanother thing people have to
understand about content is thatmost of your audience isn't
seeing most of the stuff thatyou publish.
So even though I publish a lotof content, most people don't
see most of the stuff that I putout so they see some of it and
they may see bits and pieces ofsome of it.
And even if they see the samething, let's say I record one
right here at my desk and then Itake that same topic and talk

(18:30):
about it while I'm driving inthe car.
Most people will not noticethat it's the exact same topic,
because people are getting hitwith so many messages over the
course of a day that they don'teven realize that they're
getting the same message morethan once if you do it in a
different way.
So someone told me this amarketing guy said this that the
same material packaged in adifferent way has a different
value.

(18:51):
So, for example, if and I'm surewe're going to talk about this
if you write a book right about,if you wrote a book, clara,
what would you write a bookabout?

Klara (19:01):
It actually would be probably about my podcast.
I've been thinking about numberone.
I really love my guests, Iself-select my guests and so I
think they share a lot of wisdomfrom their sport or business
and technology, and the bookwould probably be along the ways
of again the athletic mindsetand the lessons me and my guests

(19:25):
have learned from the athleticjourney and how they take them
and apply them in the nextchapter of their lives.

Dre (19:31):
Yeah, so well, it's perfect what you just said, though.
So let's say the athleticmindset and how you can take
that and apply it outside ofsports, right?
Yes, so let's say you wrote abook about that and you called
it Grand Slam Journey.
Let's say that's what youcalled it.
Ok, so let's say you wrote abook about that and you called
it Grand Slam Journey.
Let's say that's what youcalled it.
So the book is.
Let's say your book will bepriced at 20 bucks or 25 dollars
, 30 dollars, whatever that'show much a book is.

(19:52):
That's the general expectationwe have the cost of a book.
Now if you took that samematerial from that book and you
turned it into a keynote speech,you could charge ten thousand
dollars to give the speech, eventhough the content is exactly
the same.
Or you could take that samematerial from the book and you
can make it into an eight weekmastermind and bring a certain

(20:16):
type of person into yourmastermind group and say, hey,
I'm only accepting eight peoplein this group and charge them
$20,000 a piece to come intoyour program and you're teaching
the same material that'salready in the book, the point
being that it's the exact samematerial but depending on the
way you package it and the wayyou position it, the value of it
is completely different,because it's based on people's

(20:38):
expectations of what they wantto get.
So the point is, when I recordthose videos in a car, it's not
like I'm just randomly coming upwith an idea out of nowhere.
I've created 30,000 pieces ofcontent in the last 20 years.
So all I do is just think ofsomething that just happens to
be fresh on my mind at themoment and I'll record a video
about that.
And I know that if I made allmy content sitting right here at

(21:02):
the desk, eventually it wouldget boring.
You go to my Instagram and allyou see is me you see all the
boxes.
Is me sitting here like this islike I don't want to see this,
but when you see me sitting here, you see me at the pool, you
see me in a car, you see metalking to you.
There's a split screen.
I'm talking to you.
Now.
It's like interesting.
I can be saying the exact samething in each one of those
videos videos but it's moreinteresting because you're

(21:23):
seeing it from a differentperspective.
So that's one of the thingsabout creating content, and even
myself I've created a lot ofunique pieces of content.
But I also will talk about someof the same concepts over and
over again, not because I'mrunning out of ideas or I'm
trying to cheat my audience, butbecause, also, people need to

(21:43):
hear things more than oncebefore they get it.
How many times have we had tohear something before we
actually do something with it?
We got to hear things over andover and over again.
Human beings are hardheaded andI tell people you know when you
were in kindergarten how manytimes you say to ABCs like you
said it a million times, right,and now we understand words that
we can speak, because we had togo over it over and over and
over again and then we finallydid something with the material.

(22:05):
So the real key for people likeus, clara, in the information
business, is that's really whatwe're doing.
We're taking intellectualproperty and making material out
of it is.
We had to come up with new andunique ways to give people the
same information.
Yeah, somebody might get itthis way, but then other people

(22:26):
only get it when you say it thisway.
So we had to find differentways to get the message through.

Klara (22:31):
I agree, Also from athletics.
Obviously any athlete wouldunderstand it.
If you just look at yourathletic career, you may have
the best coach ever, but ifthey're communicating in a way
that you can't get, you will notimprove.
So usually the key of creatinga great pairing between an

(22:51):
athlete and a coach, at leastfor me, has been the stress and
ability to get the message thatthe coach is coaching you and
giving you a guidance in aspecific way that you can
actually perceive, understandand implement.
And I think that's why alsopeople look for maybe now we can
translate it to business coachor whatever else books, right,
People write in a specific wayor talk about things in a

(23:13):
specific way, and so wetypically cling on to those
people who we can resonate withthe message or understand the
message and the way theycommunicate in our own way,
which to me has been alwaysinteresting.
It makes sense, I understand it,but it's still puzzling.
It's like how can someone saythe same thing in a way that one

(23:35):
penetrates to you more and youunderstand deeply than somebody
else saying it in slightlydifferent words and we just
don't get or don't resonate withAny thoughts or opinion on that
.
Dre, Absolutely all saying itin slightly different words and
we just don't get or don'tresonate with any thoughts or
opinion on that train absolutely, and it's exactly.

Dre (23:50):
What you just said is exactly the point.
But I don't know how manydifferent coaches you work with
as a tennis player, but somecoaches you may have had a good
vibe with them, and othercoaches you were just not
feeling them, even though theywere both trying to teach you
the same tools.
They were teaching you the sameskills.
So it's the same thing inbasketball.
It's the same thing in business.
So I go to conferencessometimes and it's funny because

(24:12):
I'll go to conferences as anattendee.
I still go and sit in theaudience and I'll hear somebody
on the stage talking aboutsomething that is similar to
something that I talk about, andI'll be listening to the talk
and I'm like this guy's garbage.
My material is way better thanthis guy.
How did he get on the stage?
And I'm sitting here in theaudience?
Or they'll say something that Isay all the time and the people

(24:33):
in the audience will be likewow, blown away, and I'm like
man.
I said that three years ago onmy YouTube channel and the
people are like as if they neverheard it before.
So it just depends.
People have to hear things acertain way, in a certain place
at a certain time.
And also, you got to rememberpeople have to be in the right
season.
Somebody has to be in the rightseason to hear it.
So if I, you could postsomething and I see it on your

(24:54):
Instagram today and it meansnothing to me.
It goes in one ear and out theother, but then, three years
from now, somebody else says thesame thing and I'm ready to
hear it, and now I get themessage.
I'm like man, I wish somebodyhad told me that a long time ago
, but I wasn't ready to hear itwhen you said it.
I was ready to hear it whenthey said it.
So some of that is that kind ofrandomness and is also the
packaging you also have to beable to be mindful of the

(25:15):
packaging.
So, for example, I go to eventsoften and there'll be somebody
who's they're known like a namebrand person and I consider
myself to be name brand, butthere are people whose name is
bigger than mine, right, theyhave more followers and they're
more known, they've been on morestages, et cetera.
So when they say something,people are more open to hearing
what they said because of whothey are, not because of what

(25:37):
they said.
You can take some nobody personwho has no followers and no
platform.
They can take the exact samestuff that I say and nobody will
listen to them, because they'relooking at the person like who
are you?
You're nobody.
But then when someone withtheir name in lights says it,
you're listening to everythingthey say because of who they are
.
So look at this person theyhave all these followers and
they have this nice suit on andthey have that great intro video

(26:01):
.
They must be smart, so let melisten to everything that they
said.
So this is just human nature.
It defies logic.
I think we're trying to makelogic out of this, but you can't
.
Some of it is logic, but muchof it is not.

Klara (26:15):
I agree the emotional attachment.
I don't know if you've read thebook Thinking Fast and Slow by
Panaman.
I'm still actually readingthrough it.
I think I'm almost at the endby Panaman.
I'm still actually readingthrough it.
I think I'm almost at the end,but it's such a thick book it's
almost a textbook.
If there was one book that Iwould like to print in my brain
word by word, it would be thisbook, because it has so much
wisdom about how we think andhow we lack strategic thinking

(26:39):
as humans overall.
We just can of thingsstatistically.
Everything is emotionallydriven and most of the time
motivating and so aligning thatmessage again, the timing that
you mentioned, how it resonateswith that person but the mindset
of that person at the time, andbeing able to adjust your

(27:00):
message to what you want thatperson to hear instead of what
you're saying.
I think it's very relevant inthis type of business, but also
in business overall.
Being a business leader in anyorganization, that took me quite
a bit of time to understandthat.
I would say, oh, I need tochange, and it's like, no, you
don't need to change, but I needto adapt the message to how you

(27:23):
need that person to see, youperceive you, or that specific
program that you'recommunicating around, that they
actually get it in the way youwant them to understand it, and
there's lots of art in that, andI know that's an art that
somebody can really ever masterother than continue to practice
things there.

Dre (27:43):
Things there is.
Number one get the audio book.
You can read the book a lotfaster than audio.
You can listen to it whileyou're driving, working out
stuff like that.
And secondly, this is thereason why businesses will.
I mean, they have a leaderwho's very capable and a good
speaker, and all that, butthey'll still hire some outside
speaker to come and give amessage, because sometimes
people just need to hear thesame thing from a different

(28:04):
person.

Klara (28:05):
Yeah, I agree, and I've tried the audio book.
I actually have a few differentopinions.
Some books are good with audio,but if I'm trying to understand
and memorize really deep,insightful information kind of
information especially DanielKahneman he has so much things
in it that I have to break itdown because I feel like if I

(28:26):
read too many pages or chaptersit blends everything together
and I forget it and so Iliterally have to read like
maybe 10 pages and then I let itsit in and think about it and
ponder about it and internalizeit and then I got gotta break it
down in these pieces.
That's why I've been reading itfor so long.
Somehow audiobooks don't alwaysgo very deep for me.

(28:50):
They're good for some stuff,but if I need like deep
digestion of the information, Istill prefer reading it.
I don't know if you have thesame.

Dre (29:01):
I understand where you're coming from.
I probably can absorb booksbetter when I'm looking somehow
at the page than just hearing it.
But because of my schedule andlife I've picked up more audio
books.
I used to think an audio bookdidn't even count as reading,
but now I have to have it countas reading because I get a lot
of my books through audio andwhat I'll do is I'll listen to

(29:21):
the book over and over and overagain.
So I've read many audio books,read many audio books like four
or five times.

Klara (29:31):
I'll even listen to the same book back to back.
Yeah, I've done that too, Iagree.
So I've been going kind of backand forth.
First, when audiobook started,I was like this is awesome, I'm
gonna only order audiobooks.
Why would anybody get a paperbook?
Then I went to the books onyour mobile, like kindle or
stuff that you can download, andnow I'm back to like paper
books, actually the books that Ireally enjoy.
I just love having the oldpaper version and reading

(29:55):
through it, and sometimes I'msorry that this bugs people, but
I like highlighting things thedeepest learning is when you are
physically testing the book.
I believe yeah, something aboutthe physical that you mentioned
perception of like holding it inyour hands.
I don't know, it gives it adeeper context and meaning.

Dre (30:13):
There's some kind of science behind it.
Actually I can explain it, butI've heard many people say it.

Klara (30:17):
Yeah, you did touch on a little bit on the famous people,
and not that I'm trying to befamous.
Actually, maybe the reason whyI started my podcast, I
literally was struggling with myown thing, trying to find my
next ride through and I figuredwell, why don't I just talk to
smarter people than me andinterviewing them and see how
they took the skills thatthey've had and what they did

(30:41):
with them and how theytransition it?
Actually, at the beginning,when I started, I was hoping
nobody will listen to my podcast.
I just didn't want to letanybody know it exists.
But it is interesting to me how,even in the podcasting world
let's say Joe Rogan, andrewHuberman, peter Attia they've

(31:02):
just become such big personasand I've used to listen to their
podcast Joe, I still listen to,probably quite a bit, not so
much Andrew and Peter, because Ifeel like they overplayed, at
least for me.
How do you look at the peoplethat become famous Joe, peter
Attia, huberman versus kind of,let's say, nobody's like me, and

(31:24):
how do you compare?
Or how do you even see if youcompare yourself to kind of
somebody who is well known, asyou mentioned before, like
person was on a stage and youdidn't find their content
relevant, but people were justlistening to them because they
had a name.
What do you think is thedifference of building up to
that?
They had a name.

(31:45):
What do you think is thedifference of building up to
that scale and growth, to whereyour message, if you find it
valuable resonates with morepeople?

Dre (31:51):
Great question.
The answer is the difference ismarketing with an asterisk
Marketing with?

Klara (31:56):
an asterisk.

Dre (31:57):
So it becomes marketing and I'll use myself as an example.
I have spoken on big stages,but not a ton of big stages.
My name is known but it's notthat known.
So if you had Joe Rogan on yourshow, everybody would know who
Joe Rogan is.
If you said you had Dre Baldwinon the show, most of your
audience would say who?
They don't know me.

(32:17):
But I'm in between, I'm like inbetween, Right.
So the difference for me, if Ihad the, if I got the audience
that Joe Rogan has for a week, Ithink I could maintain a good
amount of that audience to stickaround and stay with me,
because my material and mydelivery and what I'm doing I

(32:46):
know exactly what I'm doing it'sif more people saw me.
I'm ready for that exposure.
I have everything in place toleverage that exposure, Whereas
someone else and you can answerfor yourself may not be in
position where they're ready toget that exposure because maybe
they haven't put all theirpieces in place yet.
I feel like I have all my piecesin place.
The biggest challenge that wehave over here in our space is
marketing, and the marketing ishow you make the money move.

(33:06):
That's how you get the eyeballsin, you get the eyeballs, you
got the right material, you makemoney.
So I don't need to do any morework on my topics or my speech
or how I deliver or any of thatstuff.
I already got all that stuff inplace.
I just need to find ways todraw more eyeballs to what I'm
doing, Whereas someone who mightnot be at that level yet they

(33:27):
still need to continue todevelop their skills, develop
their topics, develop theirapproach.
What's your presentation goingto be?
How do you want to positionyourself in the marketplace?
These are all things that needto be figured out.
And there are people who, in ourprograms, we work with people
who are at this level.
We also work with people whoare at the established level,
but people who are just gettingit figured out.
They got to get these pieces inplace first.

(33:48):
You don't want a million peopleto come to your website right
now because your website is notready for those people.
People who are ready, they justneed more people to come to
their site and see what it isthat they're doing Now.
The other piece to that is youlook at someone like Rogan and
he's a little bit difficult tocompare because he does
interviews.
It's not like he's just on heretalking and many podcast shows

(34:14):
or interview shows like this one, my show is just me talking, so
all the material has to comefrom me, so it's not like I'm
getting it from guests, butpeople let's say someone at my
level of exposure, my level ofnotoriety.
You have to do things to getyourself found, because there
are people who, let's say, anepisode that I put out 10 days
ago would really benefit from it, but because they never heard
of me, they won't get it,they'll never see it.

(34:36):
And that's the urgency that wehave to have to make sure that
more people know about me sothey don't keep missing the
stuff that I'm putting out,cause I know my stuff is good.
We just got to get it heard bymore people.
Whereas, excuse me, the knownindividual, someone like Joe
Rogan I consume Rogan stuff thatdoesn't seem like he's changed
that much.
It doesn't seem like he's madethat much of a change to his

(34:58):
approach since he got known.
I didn't like when he there wasa period, maybe a couple of
years ago, when he wasapologizing because he had
people on his show who disagreedwith the COVID stuff, and he
was.
he was apologizing.
I didn't like that.
I didn't like that.
But overall he's stillmaintaining the same thing.
He'll still have all differenttypes of people, different
backgrounds, on the show and Ilike the conversations.

(35:20):
I don't listen to every episode, but when I see someone who
looks interesting I'll listen tothat episode.
So that's what I think aboutthat.
Hopefully I answered yourquestion.

Klara (35:28):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I'm writing a few things downbecause I want to dive into it.
Hopefully I won't forget it.
You touched on Joe.
The second question I wanted toask is I like Joe because he has
this kind of wide view ofconversations.
He doesn't get just this narrowminded.
And there's something I'mpondering about as you read even
podcasting and content and alot of the coaching that

(35:50):
probably say you've got todefine your niche and that
message and you just serve thatmessage over and over.
And number one, I'm thinkingwell, that's really boring.
I can't imagine just servingthat message because it seems
like you're just repeating thesame thing over and over, which
now becomes like Huberman andPeter Attia, because after you
listen to X amount of thoseconversations, sure they have

(36:12):
more guests, but it just allbecomes sort of the same.
So I literally quit listeningto them.
So what is your view?
I guess, taking that lens, itseems like you resonate with the
wider view as well that JoeRogan has.
What is your perception andview for content creation and do
you prefer the wider, truly, orthe narrower, or a mix of both?

(36:33):
How do you mix that blendtogether?

Dre (36:37):
It depends on the type of person you are and who you're
serving and how you positionyourself.
So Joe Rogan has positionedhimself as a guy who just seems
to be genuinely curious.
So bring people on his show andhe just has conversations with
them and just talks to them.
It's the kind of conversationyou could imagine him having if
there weren't any cameras.
You notice by the show it's notvery highly produced, it's just

(36:59):
cuts back and forth between twopeople talking.
If I started doing and I do planon doing an interview show
sometime in the future, I'llinterview people and when I
interview people it's going tobe the similarity to Rogan is
that it's going to be deep dives.
I don't like short interviews.
I like long conversations wherewe can really get into the
depths with people, and I justwant to talk to people about

(37:19):
their backgrounds and how theydo what they do and ask
questions that most people don'task.
And one thing I noticed inlistening to interview shows a
lot of interview shows becausethey are so short, everything is
on the surface and you neverreally get into the depths with
their guests because there's notenough time, so they're only
hitting these high level points.
And people like myself, who doa lot of media.

(37:41):
We have the same points, we hadthe same talking points, so I
can just get the same talkingpoints on 10 different
interviews because they're all30, 45 minutes long.
So the more in-depth you go, thedeeper we can get to where you
can ask me some second and thirdand fourth level questions.
That's when you really get tothe stuff that you don't hear me
say in other places and that'swhat Rogan is able to do.
Tim Ferriss is another one whoI like, who's in that direction,

(38:04):
and I don't listen to that manyinterview shows but those.
Those are two that I think hitthat.
The challenge for a lot ofpeople these days I'm talking
hosts who have interview basedplatforms is that and I hear
many of them say this I've donea good amount of interviews.
Many of them seem to be verywary of having an interview go
too long because their audiencewon't listen to it.

(38:26):
They'll say well, we like tokeep this about 30 minutes.
We found if we go longer, theaudience stops listening and
they're not sticking around.
I'm like have you seen JoeRogan?
Do you know who he is?
Have you seen Tim Ferriss?
The guy's been viewed, listenedto 70 billion or billion times.
Joe Rogan is the biggestpodcaster out there.
They both talk to people forthree hours, but you're trying

(38:46):
to have a 30-minute show becauseyou think people won't pay
attention.
Well, those are the wrongpeople.
I even say that to my ownaudience, because I have people
in my audience who want to havetheir own podcast.
I say to them listen, it's notabout the attention span of the
audience.
A person's attention span is aslong as it's short, as it needs
to be.
Anybody ever sat through athree-hour movie?
Of course you have.
And have you ever sat through amovie and 30 minutes in?

(39:07):
You're like this movie sucksand you leave yes, so what
matters is the content.
It's not the length of thecontent, it's the quality of it.
So if you're giving peoplesomething that they want, they
will sit there all day andlisten to it, and if you're
giving them something that theydon't want, it can be 15 minutes
and they won't even make itthrough the first five.
So it's not about the attentionspan of your audience.

(39:27):
It's a myth that people haveshorter attention spans overall
these days.
The general attention span yes,because we have no TikTok and
scrolling and feeds.
Yes, people are just goingthrough things quicker, but if
they find something good,they'll stay there and watch.

Klara (39:42):
I agree with it, but I would say I'm biased because I
tend to lean towards longer formand I've gotten that same
message too from some of myaudience.
Well, you should shorten it to30 and 40 minutes.
I was like, how can I get anygood context and deeper
information?
I think even typically I have60 to 90 minute conversations.

(40:02):
Even that seems to be quiteshort, like in order to really
go to depth and have engagingand kind of background, what you
mentioned.
It would be easy to go to twoand a half three hours which,
yeah, joe or Lex Friedman dothose but I do find that
sometimes it's difficult for meto digest that too and then
producing that amount of content.
I think again from early on Ithink the most difficult part is

(40:25):
the editing.
So if I get rid of the editingI can actually do two to three
hour conversation, but then ifyou have to post process after,
that adds the most amount oftime.
So I think that's why peoplemostly try to hit the 30, 40
minutes, because the editingprocess and launching it after
is very time consuming andgetting it out.

Dre (40:46):
A couple of things on that.
I think you're right.
That is one of theconsiderations, because if you
have a team editing, and they'reediting a three-hour
conversation.
Well, that's a lot of time.
They can't spend doing somethingelse if they are responsible
for other jobs or if you'reoutsourcing it, you probably
have to spend more money, right?
If they had the editedthree-hour conversation as

(41:07):
opposed to a 30-minuteconversation.
So I think people are making adecision based on that, which I
understand.
I don't recommend it, but Iunderstand it.
I understand why people woulddo that because, I mean, bills
are bills, right, you got to paypeople.
The thing is.
And Friedman, I've heard acouple of his conversations, not
a ton, but I liked the couplethat I've heard.
I can't remember who he had onthere.
I think it was Kanye West.
Did he have Kanye West on theshow?

Klara (41:30):
He may have.
He has a mix of variety ofpeople as well.

Dre (41:34):
Yeah, he has a variety of people, and here's what I wanted
category.
But people like Friedman isthat they tend to.
Because they're so big andbecause of the size of their
platforms, they tend to talk topeople who are similar level
platform.
They might not have a podcast,but they're a known person, so

(41:57):
Kanye West or I don't know whoelse would even.

Klara (42:00):
Jeff Bezos, elon right, he picks quite a bit of tech
entrepreneurs too, but we'retalking to these people who are
so known.

Dre (42:07):
The thing is, these people do interviews all the time.
So at some point you're like Iheard everything this guy has to
say because he's gettinginterviewed by 30 different
people.
Like so, elon Musk isinterviewed.
I don't know if I'm even goingto watch it, because I already
heard everything he has to say.
I've heard all his points.
I've heard've heard all hispositions.
So if he goes on somebody'sshow, that's cool for the host.
Hey, I got to interview him.

(42:28):
I must.
If I was the host, I wouldinterview him too, even though
I've heard him 30 times already,because putting his name on my
show is going to draw a wholebunch of audience.
But as a listener I'm like I'veheard this guy already.
So what I would do?
And when I had my interviewbase show, I'm not going to be
going after the whales, I'm notgoing to be going after just big
name people.
Let me call Tim Ferriss or JoeRogan and get them on my show.

(42:49):
Not that I don't find theminteresting, but I'm going to
find people who are interestingbut they might not be that known
, even people who don't even getinterviewed.
Because if you find the rightperson who doesn't really get
interviewed that much, butthey're interesting and you ask
the right questions, because Ialways believe that Actually, I
do not believe this is just truethe quality of the conversation

(43:11):
is based on the quality of thequestions.

Klara (43:13):
So you ask good questions .

Dre (43:14):
You could make a great conversation with anybody and a
good interviewer can get a goodconversation out of anyone
asking the right questions ifthey've done their homework and
they know what they need to askand they ask good follow-ups
because somebody might saysomething that takes you in a
whole different direction in theconversation.
So I've interviewed people andmade great conversations out of
it.
I remember I interviewed mysister, for example.
She's a college professor.

(43:35):
She doesn't do interviews,she's not known, she's not a
brand.
I interviewed her on my showlike seven years ago and people
really liked the conversationbecause of the stuff that we
talked about.
First of all, she's my sister,so it's interesting on that
angle.
But then just talking about howshe moved up in her career as a
professor and talking about shetalked about mental health,
because she had some issues withmental health, and talking

(43:55):
about building her family andhow she went through job
interviews and we talked about alot of things.
Because I mean to toot my ownhorn, I'm a good interviewer, I
know how to ask the rightquestions and I can pull on a
thread, so I'll ask somebody aquestion about this and they say
something.
I say, well, what's going thatdirection.
Let's talk about that and thatis what makes a good interview,

(44:17):
and I think Rogan is very goodat that, I think Tim Ferriss is
very good at that and, again, Idon't really watch a whole lot
of other interview shows besidesthose two guys, but I think
they're really good at that andthat's the key thing.
So when I start doing interviewshows, I'm going to reach out
to people who I find interestingand, honestly, anyone who's
achieved anything is interesting.
As long as you do the homework,find out who they are, what

(44:38):
they're about, what they've done, and you ask the right
questions, you can make anyconversation interesting.

Klara (44:43):
Yeah, I agree, and I've had some of the most surprising
guests that I've found, veryserendipitously, that I've
shared so much wisdom andinspiration.
And I also find there is aninteresting bond when you find
the people you know well becauseyou know them so good and you
can make it really engaging andpersonal and, to your point, ask

(45:04):
those questions that peoplehaven't asked, the second or
third order of consequencequestions that people don't go
deep because you don't know howthat person works or operate or
don't have that context, and Ialways get insights from my
listeners of how personal thatwas and that you can see that
person in a very different lightthan if they're just on a show

(45:27):
that nobody really nobody elseknows about them.
So, on that note, dre, you hadmentioned you like deep second,
third, fourth order consequencequestions.
I'm curious are there anyspecific questions you would
like to be asked more?
When you get on podcasts?
That comes to your mind?
What are the deep things thatyou would like to share with the

(45:49):
world and audience?

Dre (45:52):
It's a good question.
Every once in a while a hostwill ask me something like that
or something that I didn't ask,that I should have asked.
I don't have a specific answerbecause if I gave that answer
then I probably use it over andover again.
Then it would cease to be theanswer because I've already been
asked.
So what I like is, even if I'minterviewing somebody, I'm

(46:15):
having a conversation withsomeone and I plan on asking
them question one, two, three,and then they say something and
answer the question number three.
That takes me off the path ofwhat was next.
I will just follow that path.
So I just like when the hostwill just, I like when someone
will take something that I'vesaid and answer that they
weren't expecting, and we justgo in that direction and then we

(46:36):
can come back to whatever theiragenda was.
But this is only possible whenthe conversation is more at
length because a lot ofinterviews that I do again
they're trying to keep it 30minutes, 40 minutes, 60 minutes
and they can't let it go on toomany tangents because they'll
never get through all theirquestions.
This is not an interrogation.

(46:57):
In an interrogation or a jobinterview, you got to ask your
questions, but in a conversationand a lot of people say they
want their podcast to be aconversation.
Then have a conversation,because if you're at dinner with
somebody you're not, you don'thave a list of questions, you
just talk to them and whateverthey say, you go in that
direction.
If that's where it goes, itgoes.
And if you don't get to allyour questions, well, we'll get

(47:17):
to it next conversation.
So that's the way that when Iinterview people, that's the way
that I do it and I have anagenda.
But if I don't get to all that,that's fine.
But I tell people up front likeplan three hours here, because
that's how much time we're goingto take for this conversation
and wherever it goes, it goes.

Klara (47:35):
It seems like you have a very similar approach, that even
when I started, I like toprepare and get questions on the
list, to prepare and getquestions on the list and I
think, like in any sport in life, you've got to prepare and plan
.
But I always say be able toabandon the plan for a higher

(47:56):
serendipitous answer orencounter.
And so if the conversation goesin a different way, you just
follow that path and,surprisingly, if I do that,
instead of just follow a script,it becomes way more fun,
typically for me, for the guests, for the listeners, instead of
just following A to Z.
And I actually think it worksthe same way in business.

(48:18):
If you present I don't knowactually, maybe we can get to
your speeches and how youprepare for speeches, maybe on
the stage by yourself, sothere's not that much
interaction.
But if I'm presenting toC-level executives and I have a
pitch and slides and a veryrefined story, but then one
third through, they ask me aquestion and I want to go a
different direction, how do youfollow that thread and adjust

(48:41):
instead of saying, well, I'llpark this and let me tell you my
story that they may not beinterested in hearing the
reminder two thirds of it.
But I find many people makethat mistake and then they
ponder why their business pitchor something had failed because
they didn't recognize thatmoment.
They could have taken a verydifferent direction, didn't?

Dre (49:04):
recognize that moment, they could have taken a very
different direction.
So my answer to that onespecific to, let's say, a sales
presentation, is that I don'twant anybody to ask me a
question while I'm giving mypresentation, so I will frame it
as this is what I'm going to do.
I'm going to do this, then thisand any questions you have,
write them down or hold them tothe end.
I'll answer all your questionswhen I'm done, because I don't
want them to throw me off with aquestion because in a sales

(49:25):
presentation specifically, theperson who's asking the
questions is controlling theconversation.
So if I allow the people I'mpitching to to start asking me
questions, they take control,they hijack my sales
presentation.

Klara (49:35):
So I don't want them to hijack me.

Dre (49:37):
So and I remember I was in network marketing and that
happened and it wasn't.
It didn't happen to me, but ithappened to my partner.
So we were both given thepresentation.
So they would do the first half, I would do the second half,
and they didn't frame itproperly and they let people in
the audience start asking themquestions while they were given
the presentation and it threwthem completely off and they
lost the respect of the audience.
And then when it was my turn tocome up in the second half, I

(49:59):
had to kind of reel the audienceback in because they lost the
frame.
So we call that framing andI've talked about that with my
audience.
Framing is very important inthe conversation because whoever
controls the frame basicallycan direct the conversation
wherever they want it to go.
So for me, in a salespresentation I don't do those
kind of presentations likeyou're describing anyway, but
when I have a sales conversationwith someone, let's say well

(50:22):
call and my goal is to get youinto our program.
I have a framework of questionsthat I'm going to ask.
I have no idea how you're goingto answer them, but I know
after question two, I'm movingto question three.
No matter how much time youtake answering question two, we
will answer.
We will get to question three.
I just know my frame and whichdirection I wanted to go.

(50:42):
But I'm asking questions.
You're doing most of thetalking and I'm just moving you
along where I want you to go,and you don't even realize that
I'm doing it.
And that's what a good salesconversation should sound like.
Now, if you're in a C-suite, inan office building, in a
conference room giving apresentation, that's completely
different than what I did, so wecan't really compare it in that
way.
But what I would do, justthinking from the outside,

(51:04):
looking in, I haven't been inyour shoes.
So take this for what it'sworth.
I would frame it that they canhold their questions to the end,
because if you're dealing withC-level people, especially very
professional and experiencedpeople, they'll just hijack the
whole conversation if you letthem.

Klara (51:20):
Well, I think sometimes yes and no I would push back.
It depends how you answer andwhich one you choose to answer,
because it's still on you to saywhether you want to follow that
threat or whether you want topark it.
And there are some importantthings about pulling in the
audience early because I thinkagain, a lot of C-level

(51:41):
executives are skilled,experienced people, hopefully
showing them some thought,leadership and something they
haven't thought about.
But they always come from itfrom their perspective and
experience, and so getting theminside and you still need to
pull them out of their shellEven C-level executives can be
shy sometimes.
So the more kind ofrelationship and trust you can

(52:05):
establish, that they can ask youquestions, whether they're
relevant, and then you're stillin the position of power to
decide do I want to take thisquestion or do I already have it
?
I haven't gotten to there andyou can always say I have an
answer and we'll talk about itin five minutes.
But if there's something thatyou're not covering and it's
very relevant and you haven'tconsidered, then that might be

(52:26):
worth time spending five to sixminutes conversation to kind of
diverge, go deeper, so youaddress it and they feel like
they're part of that solutionbecause they are part of that
solution.
Going into, you never know ahundred percent about their
business, so it's typicallyquite insightful.
I think there's a little bit ofart of when and how you maneuver

(52:47):
it and which one you takeversus which one you park, and I
do agree you can't allow yourguests or audience to fully kind
of divert you from that path.
If that happened and that'stypically not success either I'm
trying to think about what aresome of the things I noted down
here that I wanted to go back.

(53:07):
Maybe marketing.
You did talk about marketing.
I'm curious, even for myselfpersonally, and probably a lot
of podcasters or contentcreators.
Even business executives thinkabout marketing and how to get
the right message out.
Anything specific that workedfor you best, trey, that you had
to find a hard way of gettingyour name more known and getting

(53:30):
on.
You mentioned you've been onsome of the big stages not all,
but what has worked well thatelevated you into that direction
.

Dre (53:39):
That's a big question.
We could give a wholeconversation just on that alone.
So, when it comes to marketing,you mean for a specific thing,
you mean as an individual, youwant to mean as a speaker, as a
guest, any direction inparticular, whichever direction
you prefer because you're asuccessful athlete, entrepreneur
, content creator, author,speaker.

Klara (54:10):
Yeah, you seem like you have multi-dimensional personas,
so whichever one you want tochoose, go with.

Dre (54:13):
Thank you, that sounds good .
So let's talk about it fromeach angle.
So I'll do it quickly.
So in basketball, for example,when I wanted to start playing
pro now I think you know from myfirst conversation I played
Division III college.
You know the sports world inamerica.
You play division three sports.
You're probably not gonna gopro, that's not.
You don't go pro from d3.
So I knew that getting out ofmy school I was gonna have to

(54:34):
market myself in order to get achance, because my playing
performance up to that pointwould not be sufficient.
So I knew I needed to first ofall get some footage of myself
playing against pro guys,because the guys I played
against in college weren't goodenough.
So I had to go to an exposurecamp.
That was my first marketinginvestment was going to an
exposure camp.
I played pretty well, I got thefootage and then what I did
marketing myself.

(54:55):
I started cold callingbasketball agents.
That's how I got my agent.
My agent got me my firstcontract, so the marketing part
was cold calling agents andgoing to that exposure camp.
The key here was I had to playwell with that exposure camp.
If I hadn't played well, thenthe footage wouldn't matter and
the agents wouldn't talk to me.
So that was the key there.
Then, when it came to thecontent, well, one of the things
that benefited me was I waspretty early to the game.

(55:16):
There wasn't a lot ofcompetition in putting content
out at that time as opposed totoday.
At the same time, once Irealized that there was an
opportunity, I had to take theopportunity, because I wasn't
the only person who looked atYouTube in 2006, 2007, but I was
the one who decided I'm goingto take my camera to the gym
every day and put this footageon YouTube.
I wasn't the only one who knewabout it.

(55:38):
I just took advantage of theopportunity and I jumped on it.
And, mind you, you couldn'tmake money putting videos on
YouTube, so I didn't make anymoney from just from the videos
themselves until 2010.
So this is the reason why manypeople didn't take advantage of
it, because what do you get?
What's the benefit?
There was none, so I just hadto keep putting myself out there
and that's how I built the.
In any type of sales, peopletalk about the know like and

(56:01):
trust factors, factors.
So people knew me they liked meand they trusted me Because for
five years, I was puttingcontent out for free and asking
for nothing in exchange, becauseI literally had nothing to sell
.
I couldn't have sold themanything if I wanted to.
I didn't have anything.
I was just playing basketballand putting videos on YouTube,
so that no like and trust factor.
That foundation was built overfive years and it still matters

(56:21):
to this very day.
When it came to the content,when it came to the books that
started with, actually, thebasketball players, a lot of
athletes I can say this a lot ofathletes don't read, especially
basketball players.
They don't read, they watchYouTube.
They don't read books.
But because they connected withme and I was writing a book,
they read my book and then theyread my next book and my next

(56:42):
book and they got me to readbooks because I would mention
books and I would mention howthis thing that I do on the
court I learned this because Iread this book by this guy and
they would say, okay, well, Inormally wouldn't read any books
, but because you mentioned itand you mentioned how it helped
you in basketball, I'm going togo read that book.
I'm going to go read NapoleonHill, I'll go listen to Earl
Nightingale because you you playball and that connection.

(57:03):
I was the bridge between thebooks and the basketball because
I've always been into books andof course I was writing them.
So that was one of the thingsthat helped me get started with
that.
But that was more the marketingside, just through my audience,
that know like and trust factoras far as selling books to
people who didn't know me, thatwas just simply advertising.
I just learned how to run adsand hopefully they'll break even
at least on the ads that I wasrunning so I can acquire a

(57:26):
customer.
That stuff I learned from thisguy named Russell Brunson.
Have you heard of him?
Clickfunnels guy?

Klara (57:32):
Yeah, I've heard of the name.

Dre (57:33):
He's the first one explaining to me which was the
concept of breaking even on youradvertising.
So you can spend $1,000 on adsand you make $1,000 back, but
you didn't make any money.
Is that good or bad?
He said that's good because nowyou have $1,000 worth of
customers who you don't have tospend money to get their
attention again.
So now you just, let's say,sell a $10 product, you make 100

(57:54):
sales.
You've got 100 new customers,but you made zero money.
That's good, because now youhave 100 customers who have
spent money with you.
Your customers who have spentmoney with you Assuming your
product is good, now they'llspend money with you the second
time.
You don't have to spend to getmoney from them the next time
you have to run ads to themtwice.
You only got to run ads once,so you're acquiring customers
for free is literally how hedescribed it.
So that is what helped meunderstand that when it came to

(58:16):
the marketing, the books, whenit came to speaking, that was
just getting on the phone.
I still do that to this day.
I still, to this day, the crmwe have.
We probably got 3 000 contactsin our crm.
Uh, people were just emailing,calling, following up and some
of them tell us no, actually weget told no a lot and they say,

(58:37):
no, we're not interested, or wealready got our speakers or we
wouldn't hire somebody like you,we don't bring in speakers from
outside the industry, or wedon't pay our speakers.
We get this stuff kind ofresponses all the time, so we
might have to go through 30leads to find one possible
possible opportunity, and that'sjust being willing to get out
there and be active.
So I still do that to this day.

(58:57):
And, as far as my overall brand,the content is a big part of
that.
Putting content out,collaborations like this
conversation right here.
So there are people in youraudience who have never heard of
me, but because they're here inthis conversation, they'll take
an interest and they'll cometake a look at what I'm doing.
Maybe some of them will add meto their list of who they listen
to.
And then, of course, you stillhave the advertising that you

(59:23):
can do, where you use money toget attention.
So these are all things thatare part of the marketing mix,
and the reason why this mattersso much is because marketing is
business.
That's business.
If you know how to market, thenyou can always have an
opportunity to make money, andif you know how to market, it
doesn't matter what industryyou're working in.
You can help others make money.
So I have a lot of clients, alot of members in our university

(59:44):
who are not in my same industry.
We have people in finance peoplewith brick and mortar
businesses, people in theclothing industry, people in the
food industry, people comingout of government, and I have
never worked in any of theseindustries.
But they work with me because Iknow how to market and
marketing.
Principles are universal.
It doesn't matter where youapply them, they always work.

Klara (01:00:04):
Yeah, I'm curious.
You described beautifully someof the pillars of your persona
now and how marketing sort ofhelped you elevate some of that
success or hustle.
I guess I would call it stillin many ways and persistence and
consistency that listeners canagain even go listen to our
first conversation.

(01:00:25):
I think it's a great example ofthat.
What aspects of your businessdo you like the most?
I'm curious because you havejust so much.
Is there a favorite one thatyou like investing your time and
effort into?
Because, running a business Ihave to say even podcasting I
was terrified of conversationsfirst.
At first it was something I waswas afraid of and I took it as

(01:00:45):
a learning lesson to get betterat and it gave me almost like
this championship feeling likewhen you go to the most
important game you're neverstressed, and I enjoyed it in a
way because I missed thatfeeling from tennis when you go
play the most important matchthat you know really matters.
I've gotten to a stage where Ilook forward to those.

(01:01:06):
This is my most favorite partof the podcast thing and others
are just do, let's say, likesocial media, obviously, like I
hate everything around it, likedoing the mini videos.
I've created a process how I doit, but I hate everything about
social media.
So curious about you when doyou enjoy spending your time
most on?
Versus the things, even if youwant to share, that you really

(01:01:29):
don't enjoy and you just dobecause it's part of that
business?

Dre (01:01:32):
Yeah.
So first let me ask you Englishis your what?
Second, third, fourth language?

Klara (01:01:38):
Actually it was my third, but now it's almost better than
my Czech.
But I would say it will neverbe perfect because I learned it
quite late in my life.

Dre (01:01:47):
What's your first language?

Klara (01:01:48):
Czech.

Dre (01:01:49):
Czech.
Okay, so well, the first thingfor you, it's a great
accomplishment because Englishis not your first language and
here you are having a podcast,talking to people in English,
people who are native speakers,like myself.
I don't speak any otherlanguage.
I mean, I can know a couple ofwords, but I can't speak another

(01:02:10):
language definitely notconversationally.
So kudos to you for even beingable to do that.
And as far as me, to answeryour question, the favorite part
of my business is when I canlook at the merchant processor
dashboard and I can see themoney went up.
That's my favorite part.
I'm in a conversation withsomeone and they say, hey, we're
going to join, and I give thema link and I sit there and watch
and they say it's done and Isee the bar go up.

(01:02:30):
That's the favorite part.
So, as far as overall, though,in the business, marketing is
the best part.
I like the marketing.
Marketing is just about therelationship that you build and
nurture with your audience therelationship that you build and
nurture with your audience.
So, as opposite to you, I likesocial media.
I actually like using it.
I like using it when I'mengaging with people.
So one thing about social mediamy discipline is that I do not

(01:02:58):
scroll on social media.
So when I get on Instagram,anybody who I'm following, like
I'm following you on Instagram,you never see me liking your
pictures because I don't seethem, because I don't scroll.
so I open instagram, I post andI get off of it.
So I don't look at otherpeople's stuff because it can be
distracting and the algorithmis designed to distract you and
I don't want to get distractedand I know what I get distracted
by, so I don't put myself in aposition to get distracted, so I

(01:03:18):
don't look and I only look atstuff that.
Let's say, somebody leaves acomment on my post, I'll engage
with that, but I don't commenton other people's stuff.
I don't like other people'sstuff.
I don't want to know what'shappening.
I don't do that.
The only social media app that Iengage with is X, formerly
known as Twitter.
That's like the, that's likethe market, is like the open
town square where people arejust talking about current

(01:03:40):
events and stuff that happensthere.
I will school, I will comment,I will comment on other people's
stuff.
I'll engage with people who Idon't even know.
I'll argue with people.
I do all kinds of stuff on thatapp.
That one, that's fun for me.
I enjoy doing that kind of stuffbecause I know that my approach
and my way of thinking and myability to articulate it, clara,
is what differentiates me fromother people.

(01:04:02):
So when I engage on an app likeX and people who don't know me
see it.
They're like okay, the way thathe said that is interesting is
different and I like it.
And those people now come intomy world.
So I'm doing it strategically.
I'm not doing it as a it's notlike some jerk off, I'm doing a
waste of time.
I'm doing it strategicallybecause I know it works.
I know that works for me when Ijump into a conversation of

(01:04:24):
some random person who doesn'tknow me I don't know them I
disagree with them and tell themwhy they're wrong, and then
people start following mebecause they like the way I said
it.
I do it on purpose.

Klara (01:04:34):
I wonder if X is like the right platform, especially for
disagreeable people, becauseit's almost created to have this
like disagreement andconversations right kind of
conversations you would have inthe crowd in the street.
So maybe people who aredisagreeable that again we
talked about it in our firstconversation enjoy that.

Dre (01:04:55):
Yeah I'm disagreeable, so, and I don't mind disagreeing
with people out, well and.
But I'm not disagreeable in anegative way, if people
understand it.
If I disagree with somebody,I'm not goingable in a negative
way, if people understand that.
If I disagree with somebody,I'm not going to be
disrespectful of you.
I'm going to disagree with yourpoint and I will beat your
point up, but I'm not going tosay anything personal about you.
That's the line, and a lot ofpeople don't have that ability

(01:05:18):
and I find myself a lot of timesI'll disagree with a person who
I don't know and their responseis to say something about me
because they can't handle it.
I disagree with them and theycan't say anything about my
point.
So they got to say somethingabout me and I'll even call them
out on that and again, so Ijust have that ability.
But I know myself.
The key is for anyone out thereyou have to know yourself and

(01:05:39):
what works best for you.
So some people they do best andthey don't say anything.
They just post pictures ofthemselves, and that works.
That gets them a bunch ofattention.
Or they just post videos, andthat works for them, and I wish
I could just post pictures ofmyself and get all the followers
, but it doesn't work.

Klara (01:05:54):
Have you tried to drink?

Dre (01:05:56):
I have tried, maybe you haven't tried enough.
It doesn't work for men, it onlyworks for people eligible for
that.
Unless you're marketing to gayguys, I guess.
What do you think about that?
So for me, I have to use mywords.
That's what works for me.
I can use my language and usemy brain, so that's what.
X is the app where I can dothat.
Instagram is good becausepeople can.

(01:06:18):
They will listen to the littleclips and they'll say, okay, let
me, let me go a little bitdeeper with this guy, let me go
get the book, et cetera, etcetera.
In a perfect world, ifeverything was just based on
logic and intellect and peoplejust all the money just flow
based on that, then I'd be JoeRogan.
But it doesn't look like that.

(01:06:39):
So you got to mix with someentertainment and for some
people that kind of intellectualjousting is entertainment.
So I know that I'm not eligibleto reach everybody, because not
everybody's looking for that.
Some people just want to beentertained.
That's all they want.
They just want entertainment.
They want something funny.
They want something that theywant the visual version of junk

(01:07:02):
food.
I'm just not that person.
I don't have that ability.
I can't make myself do that.
So I know that I'm not talkingto everybody when I put my
messages out there and I acceptthat Everybody has a different
approach and everybody has adifferent destiny for where
their stuff's going to go and adifferent potential based on who
you are.
So I know what mine is and Iknow exactly who I'm trying to
reach.

Klara (01:07:23):
I like you talking about finding your strength, and you
know clearly what your strengthis.
I think it's important as anathlete to know what are the
shots or positions in place thatyou want to lean into, and it
seems like you found yours inbusiness.
Was it natural to you, did youdiscover it early on, or did it

(01:07:43):
take you some time to figure out?
Oh, I'm actually pretty good atthis.
Let me lean on the strength andpolish it more and lead with it
.

Dre (01:07:52):
You mean in the business direction.

Klara (01:07:54):
Yes.

Dre (01:07:55):
Man, it was something that well.
There's a couple of answers tothat, clara.
Number one is that I've alwaysbeen a business person.
I've always had a businessmindset, even when I was playing
sports.
I can't remember who I wastalking to.
I was just telling somebodythis other day that I'm a
business person who happened tohave basketball as his business
for 10 years, and so I'm not abasketball player.
I'm a businessman who happenedto play basketball and I just

(01:08:18):
got into basketball.
I did that as a business for adecade.
When I was done with it, Istopped playing basketball and I
moved on to doing whatever wecall what I do now thought,
leadership, books and coachingand speaking, et cetera, et
cetera.
So I was thinking business evenback when I was in, let's say,
in college.
I graduated college exactly 20years ago, so in college I was

(01:08:40):
looking around at my classmates.
Does that have a degree?
You went to college in the USA.

Klara (01:08:45):
Yes.

Dre (01:08:46):
Okay.
So I graduated with a businessdegree four-year business degree
from Pennsylvania StateUniversity and I remember
looking around at my classmatesbecause the last couple of years
you're taking all your classesfor your degree.
So it was like the same peoplein all the classes, same people.
Like the same people in all theclasses, same people.
And I was looking around atthese people and I'm like I'm
different from them.
I knew I was different fromthese people.
They were very diligent indoing the homework and being

(01:09:09):
prepared for the quizzes and thetests.
I didn't do any of that stuff.
They took notes in class.
I would fall asleep in class.
I remember the professor oncecalled me out for falling asleep
and I talked like honestly Iwasn't sleeping but he saw me.
I was a very average student.
I was intelligent enough to geta degree but I wasn't diligent
enough to be a good student.

(01:09:31):
If that makes sense Like if Ihad applied myself I would have
been a good student.
I didn't apply myself, I didjust enough to get by.
So I knew I already understoodwhat the system was in America
and the education system in theUnited States is designed to put
people into back in theindustrial revolution, was
designed to create factoryworkers.
That's what it was.
Now, these days we don't sendmost people to our factories.
Most of the work these days isintellectual, but the

(01:09:55):
educational system is stilldesigned to produce the same
type of thing, just for adifferent reason Intellect work
instead of backbreaking physicallabor, manual labor.
So I knew I didn't want to gointo that space.
I knew I wanted to play sportsfirst of all, but I knew after
sports it has to be somethingelse, because sports doesn't
last forever and remember comingout of a Division III college.
No guarantee I was going to geteven one shot at sports, let

(01:10:16):
alone 10 years.
So I was already thinking, allright, how can I get into the
business space?
I got introduced to networkmarketing when I was still in
college and that experience toldme that, ok, there's a whole
other realm of people out theremaking money in a completely
different way.
And I said I'm going to go inthat direction.

(01:10:36):
Because I read Robert KiyosakiRich Dad, poor Dad when I was in
college and that told me, ok,there's a whole other way to
have a full time work, full timecareer.
That's not what college ispreparing me for.
Because I look at my classmatesand I say all these people it'd
be about 40 of us in thesebusiness classes.
I said they're all going to bevery good employees at
somebody's company.

(01:10:57):
I knew they would because theyshowed up to class every day.
They did all their work, theywere prepared for the test.
They the teachers.
Every day they did all theirwork, they were prepared for the
test, the teachers liked them.
I said the only differencesbetween this and work is that
here they're a student andthat's a teacher.
There you're an employee,they're the boss.
I knew I wouldn't be a good.
I could be a very good employee, but I knew I wouldn't be a
good one long-term because Ihave too much of an independent

(01:11:18):
streak.
I don't always like being partof a group, so much

(01:11:41):
no-transcript.
When the content space camearound and I'm putting this
material out, I'm like, ok, Ican build a name for myself.
Now people know me and theyknow what I'm about and they
like me.
There was no money being made,but there's something here.
I knew there was somethingthere when I was doing YouTube
and blogging in 2008.
And then, when the opportunityto make money from it came, I

(01:12:09):
said, okay, there's somethinghere, but it's not like this is
retirement money.
My first check from YouTube wasfor $110.
All right, so it's not like youcan just stop doing everything
off of that and then, I came upwith.
I found out that you couldcreate products and you could
sell them on the internet.
I said, okay, this is anotherthing.
And then somebody asked me doyou do coaching?
I said, okay, well, that's thething.
Okay, I can do that.
Then the professional speakingand writing books and making

(01:12:29):
courses.
So all this stuff just startedto come.
And the key thing is that and Italked about this earlier is I
had to take advantage of theopportunity.
It's not I didn't create orinvent the opportunity, but once
I noticed it, I had to dosomething with it, and that's
how the entrepreneurship kind ofstarted to build in me.

(01:12:50):
I don't even remember what yourquestion was.
I've gone on so many tangentshere.
What was the original question?

Klara (01:12:54):
No, this is great Just about your strength, like you
talk about your intellect andunderstanding that you can
actually engage with theaudience most when you have sort
of this thought throughleadership.
So have you discovered thatearly on?
It seems like you always knewthere was a path and you were
pulled that direction, even withthe youtube videos, and you

(01:13:16):
just continue to lean on thatstrength and skill more to
practice it and continue torefine it yeah, so the thing is
part of that.

Dre (01:13:24):
Thank you for clarifying.
That is, I always knew, evenback in high school, that I had
a different perspective thanmost people, whether it was my
high school classmates, mysports teammates, even going
into college I knew I had adifferent way of looking at
things and the way that I sawthe way that most people
articulated their thoughts, Ialways knew there were gaps in
their thinking.
I'm like, okay, I get whatyou're saying, but the way that

(01:13:46):
you're explaining that there'ssomething that you're not
getting and I wasn't always ableto explain it to them back in
my high school and college years.
But the better I've gotten atcommunicating and the better my
vocabulary has become, thebetter I get at being able to
knock down people's nonsense.
A lot of people, their thoughtprocesses are based in just
complete fallacies.
They don't even understand whythey believe what they believe,

(01:14:10):
and I know how to knock thatstuff down and that's really
where a lot of sources are outof my content.
Honestly, when I'm doing thatand anybody looks at my stuff,
you'll see that that's oftenwhat I'm doing.
I'm taking things that peoplewidely believe and they think
that they believe it for onereason, but then I break it down
, explain to them why eitherwhat they believe is untrue or
the reason you believe it iswrong, you're basing on a wrong
idea and again, I have theability to do that.

(01:14:32):
So I've always thought likethat.
But there was no outlet fortelling anybody that in 2006.
There was no way you could getthat message out.
But then podcasting came along.
Now you can write your ownbooks, now you can make a
YouTube channel, and now there'sa whole space for someone like
me.
So let's say I had been born 30years earlier.
I was my parents' age.
I would have had to just takeall this, and there was nowhere

(01:14:53):
I could go with it.
Maybe I could write a couple ofbooks.
Maybe, if I was lucky, I couldget a TV show or a radio show.
But how many people get that?
It's like a 1% opportunity.
But now anybody can do it.
But now anybody can do it.
So I happen to come along atthe right time as well.

Klara (01:15:07):
Yeah, that is always very important, like the timing and
the change of era or newopportunities coming up,
obviously this generative AI.
Now we're on the nextintersection, so we will see
what that creates and what's thenext opportunity for having new
jobs, professions and skill set.
We haven't even imagined thatwe could maybe create and make

(01:15:31):
our living out of.
Speaking of that and timing wetalked earlier.
We could probably go for hoursand I don't want to take all of
your Friday, but a few morequestions that I have, maybe one
even specific coaching, becauseyou mentioned you were pulled
into the coaching.
I personally enjoy coaching.
I've tried it for a little bit.

(01:15:52):
I think if you are from theathletic or someone is from the
athletic perspective, weresonate with it because we
understand that you need coachesto become better, that you need
coaches to become better, helpyou see some of your blind spots
and even lean on your strengthslike pinpoint your strengths
and help you guide throughspecific direction.

(01:16:13):
At the same time, I feel likethere was so much of this
coaching.
I'm curious what yourperspective, because it's like
everybody in the world nowadaysis a coach or wants to be coach
and it's getting to a pointwhere sure, some people maybe
should be coaches is great, butit seems literally like every
other person, and there are somany people, especially coaches,

(01:16:34):
they'll have to be on podcasts.
I've almost started saying noto most of them because it seems
to be kind of the same message.
They don't have maybe theathletic background like you do.
It's just very different.
So what's your view on this?

Dre (01:16:53):
And why do you think there's this rise of coaches
suddenly?
Man, there's a lot of juicystuff in that one.
So let me ask you a question.
First, if you don't mind, youget a lot of coaches.
You say you get a lot of peoplewho are coaches reaching out to
you about being on your show.
What's the reason when you sayno?
What's the reason that you sayno?

Klara (01:17:07):
Well, I typically look into their Instagram, their
LinkedIn.
Typically, when I say yes to aperson, I want to do some sort
of deeper diligence whether themessage actually resonates and
do I feel it has good enoughsubstance.
Number one and number two a lotof coaches nowadays play on
this mental actually opposite ofmental toughness.

(01:17:28):
We're trying to make peoplefeel good about themselves,
which I think is actuallyweakening the society, so
especially those that followthat area.
I just started saying no toautomatically because I don't
want to serve that population.
I actually think there's acertain amount of struggle we
humans need in life tounderstand who we are and find

(01:17:49):
out our strengths and refine ourskills, and if we're going to
try to make everybody's livesawesome, happy and easy, I think
it's the wrong way to go todevelop a better society and
population.
Next, so sorry, that's mylonger run to your answer.

Dre (01:18:05):
So I'm going to answer your question, but I will say one
thing to what you just said Ithink you really should look
into leaning into that, what youjust said, because there's a
huge wave right now of peopleare just calling it mental
health or mental wellness.
Let's make people feel good,let's validate, let's affirm.
Let's not say anything thatmight make someone feel hurt or

(01:18:28):
threatened or bad or invalidated, and especially coming from a
female.
It's one thing if I say itbecause they look at me and
maybe expect it, but with yousaying it, I think there's a
huge lane there that I think youcould jump into, because so
many people are going in theopposite direction.
So that's just a side note.
So, for me when it comes to thecoaches.

(01:18:50):
Yes, a lot of people arestepping into the coaching space
.
One reason is because you don'tneed anything to be a coach.
You don't need a storefront,you barely need a website.
But you just got to have peopleknow you and get them to trust
you and like you and put theprice tag on and you can boom
you're a coach.
So I think it's because of theease of entering the industry.
That's why so many people arepositioning themselves as

(01:19:11):
coaches.
Also, because, again, you don'thave to have anything to say
that you're a coach.
Like if you say you were anathlete, people are going to say
, okay, what'd you play?
Where'd you play, who'd youplay against, who'd you beat?
They want to know what you did.
They want to know your resumeand you have to show one.
I say I play basketball.
I got to tell you I played here, here, here, I did these things
.
You got to show something tosay that you're a coach.

(01:19:31):
What do you have to have done?
Nothing.
You don't have to go to schoolyou, because coaching can be a
high ticket offering that youcan charge 20, 30, a hundred
thousand dollars for coachingand you don't have to give

(01:19:53):
people anything tangibly.
You can just talk to them, betheir friend, be nice to them,
make them feel good.
You hold them accountable.
That is coaching.
Technically, that's coaching.
They're not wrong, and ifsomeone was willing to pay for
it, you might as well take themoney.
So, yes, that's why a reason alot of people do step into the
coaching space and there arepeople out there who value the
coaching at the same time is noteverybody.

(01:20:14):
There's only a small percentageof the population as a whole
who is even eligible to receivecoaching, meaning that they
understand that they couldbenefit from having someone
outside of themselves talk tothem, hold them accountable,
tell them things they don't know, help them see perspectives
that they don't see, and they'rewilling to pay that person
money in order to do it.

(01:20:34):
How many people qualified evenbe willing to do that?
Not many, not a lot.
I say about 2% of the populationis open to it.
2% doesn't sound like a lot ofpeople, but amongst 8 billion is
a lot of people.
So that's the reason why a lotof people are stepping into the
coaching space, and it makesperfect sense to me that you get
a lot of people reaching out toyou because you have an

(01:20:55):
interview-based show and they'retrying to piss themselves.
And it's funny because I don'teven interview people, I don't
have guests on my show, but Iget some of those emails from
coaches and authors.
Coaches, authors and speakersUsually they're all three right
and they have a PR person reachout and they have this long
email with all these links andall the things they could talk
about, and I'm like.

(01:21:18):
these people have no idea whatthey're doing.
They're paying PR people.
They're getting ripped offbecause they don't even know how
to market themselves.
That's the problem.
It's not that they're bad.
Some of them might actually begood quality people, but if you
don't present yourself the rightway, nobody will ever know.
And that's the challenge, andthat's where a lot of people
miss it, and this is what wetalked about earlier.
So when I go to a conferenceand I see somebody on the stage

(01:21:39):
and I'm like my material isbetter than theirs, well, well,
they did something that I didn'tdo that got them on that stage.
And that's the next thought thatI have.
I'm like all right, my materialis better than this guy, so I
know my material doesn't need toget better.
What did they do to get them onthe stage that I'm in the
audience?

Klara (01:21:55):
and they're up there.

Dre (01:22:01):
I got to figure that out, I got to crack that code and
that's the marketing and that'sthe job.
That's literally what I'm doingall day is trying to crack that
code, because once that codegets cracked, I know if you put
me up on stage with the samebilling and the same status as
some of these other people, I'llbeat them.
But right now they're beatingme because they have the billing
and the status that I don'thave.
So I have to close that gap.

Klara (01:22:18):
I love it.
What it makes me think aboutactually confidence too, and
going back to our previousepisode, we talked about gaining
confidence in basketball and insport.
Even for me in tennis, becauseI started late, it took me a lot
of time If I actually you couldsay ever if I ever was
confident enough about my game.
But I laugh now with theconfidence with which you had

(01:22:40):
spoken.
Obviously, you have produced alot of content and have watched
and are following a lot ofthought leaders in the
confidence that you have aboutbeing on the same stage and
building up and fine tuning themarketing and also what
clarified for me same thing inprobably basketball and
specifically in tennis, when Iplayed, you may have had a

(01:23:01):
better game, but you lost thatmatch and it might have been
because of one specific thing,and so you always go to what was
I worse in, or why did thatperson beat me in that specific
day and time, and what do I needto practice Like?
There's always a reason why youlost a match or a game and so I
laugh.
Actually, you're looking at itfrom the same lens.

(01:23:24):
What is that person doingbetter than me?
I may be better in one context,but what other pillars of my
business or entrepreneurshiptype of journey that I'm lacking
or I need to build up to thenreach, kind of the next level,
which it makes me think moresimplistically about what even

(01:23:46):
me personally can I get betterat if I want my audience to grow
and I want more people tolisten to these conversations
Because, again, I get a lot ofinsights from my guests and
thank you for being on the showbut, yeah, how can I get it
scaled to more people so morepeople get the wisdom too?

Dre (01:24:04):
That's right, and a couple of things here.
So, since you play tennis, itreminded me of something when
you mentioned confidence.
Once I was watching this tennismatch this was years ago Serena
Williams was playing and theyhad this graphic that came up on
the screen and it said theyasked the other players what's
the number one key to beatingSerena in a match?
Do you know what the answer was?

Klara (01:24:25):
Confidence.

Dre (01:24:25):
Confidence yeah, it was like overwhelmingly.
It was like four choices, itwas like serving returns the
ground game and confidence.
Confidence was like 70% of theanswer and I took a screenshot
of it and I posted it onInstagram.
This was years ago, probably2017, something like that, but
really that is the key in sports, especially at the highest

(01:24:46):
level.
You get to play in college oryou play in pro.
Everybody's good.
So the difference is how muchdo you believe in yourself,
Because that determines how muchof your skills you bring to the
table when it matters,especially against somebody else
who's good.
You're playing against somebodywho could beat you.
What's the difference?
How much do you believe in yourgame versus how much they
believe in theirs?
So it just made me think aboutthat.

(01:25:06):
And the other thing to answerthe rest of your question there
is the marketing is thedifference and what I tell my
audiences and also remind myselfof and I've alluded to it
several times here is thedifference between doing the
thing and selling the thing.
Once you get to a certain levelof ability, when it comes to

(01:25:27):
doing the thing, getting betterat doing the thing doesn't make
that much of a difference.
So as a speaker, for example,or an author or a coach, I and
again I say this humbly I don'tneed to get better, I don't need
to get better at those things.
I need to get better at sellingit.
I just need to get better atpeople knowing my name, knowing
what I'm about and believingthat I am worth what I'm asking
for.
That's the selling thing.

(01:25:48):
Selling thing is 90 percent ofthe job.
Once you get good enough,there's a baseline.
So I want to make sure peopleunderstand that.
So don't misconstrue this.
People are listening Once youget to a certain level and I
even say this, and you couldprobably equate this to tennis I
definitely say it in basketball.
As I told you and people know Icame out of a Division three

(01:26:10):
college there's a certainbaseline level of ability you
have to have to be eligible toplay professional sports.
So once you're at that baselineas long as you're at that level
or above the difference is nowconfidence, marketing, selling
yourself.
Who's your agent?
How do people know you?
Are you getting seen?
Are you playing at the rightevents?
That's the only thing thatmakes a difference at that point

(01:26:30):
, once you're above the line.
If you're below the line itdoesn't matter what you do
because you're just not goodenough.
But if you're good enough, thenall the rest of it is marketing
.
And in the business world,which is extremely subjective,
the sports world is moreobjective.
Because in sports there's atennis match.
You won two sets, they won oneset, you won.
That's how it goes.
Period Basketball I had 100points, you had 90 points, I won

(01:26:51):
.
It's objective.
The scoreboard determines.
In business there's noscoreboard.
There is a scoreboard but noteverybody's playing by the same
rules.
In business everything issubjective.
So if I'm trying to land akeynote and they come down to,
all right, we might take Clarafor the keynote, we might take
Dre how do they decide.
There's no objective measurebetween me and you.

(01:27:12):
It's just who they like.
That's what it comes down to.
Who they like better, who theythink better, resonates with the
audience.
Well, we got a bunch of womenin our audience, so let's hire a
woman.
We had a bunch of white peopleevery year, so let's hire a
black guy.
That's how they decide.
That's how they make theirdecisions.
You don't control it, so it'sextremely subjective.
So in the business world, it'sall about marketing.
It's not about being good,because you'd be really good and

(01:27:35):
nobody and not making any money.
So you have to really figureout the marketing piece and when
you really start focusing onthe marketing and you get good
at it and I'm working on gettingbetter at it I feel I'm far
from mastering the marketingspace.
I'm good but I haven't masteredit.
When you get good at it, that'swhen your goodness at doing the
thing.
Now everybody starts to seelike damn, and all of a sudden

(01:27:57):
you're a superstar.
And you're like, yeah, I'vebeen this good for 10 years, but
you just found out Now,everybody just found out last
month, right, that I'm goodbecause now everybody knows me.
You know what I'm saying.

Klara (01:28:07):
Yeah, and one thing that came to mind as you were saying
that also problem of gettinggood at something is you still
know how many areas of that areayou don't know.
So the deeper you go into asubject, you may be good
relevant to the rest, let's say,but because you know it so well
, you relevant to the rest,let's say, but because you know

(01:28:28):
it so well, you uncover all ofthese other things that you can
be better at.
So how do you recognize?
All right, maybe these otherthings are not worth my time,
because if I continue to investthe time in improving just this
little bit, it's going torequire much more time, focus,
effort and attention.
Maybe I need to strengthenthese other areas that would
then allow me to attention.
Maybe I need to strengthenthese other areas that would
then allow me to grow.

(01:28:49):
And I say it even from anathlete like there's some things
, weaknesses, that drive youdown.
You've got to make sure,especially in individual sport
like tennis, you have to bewell-rounded enough that you
don't have one stroke thatstands out.
Let's say, like Coco, she's afantastic tennis player and her
forehand breaks down all thetime under pressure, so

(01:29:09):
everybody knows when there'spressure points.
She's been working on it andimproving a lot, but when you
continue in important pointshitting to her forehand, that's
her weakness.
So how do you cover up toelevate that game so you don't
lose that match because of that?
But then also lean on yourstrengths, whatever that
strength stroke is, or inbusiness specific area, because

(01:29:30):
that's always the way thatyou're going to create your game
as an athlete, but also createyour business as an as an
entrepreneur.
Now, I don't know where I wasgoing all.

Dre (01:29:39):
So we talked about collapsing timeframes and we
want to talk.
80-20 rule have you read 10x iseasier than 2x by Ben Hardy?
Have you read that book?

Klara (01:29:51):
I haven't read it no.

Dre (01:29:53):
Ben Hardy is a speaker who I didn't listen to him and say
I'm better than him.
I did not.
I said this guy because he hasa unique approach.
He's not.
We're not in the same lane.
And when I heard him speak, Iremember I was at this marketing
conference.
He was speaking.
It was actually RussellBrunson's conference,
clickfunnels conference and BenHardy is not a he's not a hype
speaker, he's not a motivationalspeaker, he's an author and he

(01:30:16):
just said up there, he justtalked, and he talks is really
conversational tone, very lowtone.
He's not jumping up and down,he's not doing any of that, he's
just going through his thighs.
He was probably the and I don'tsay this, I say this
respectfully he's probably thelowest energy speaker who stood
on the stage that whole week andit was probably 20 speakers,
but he was the best to mebecause of what he was talking

(01:30:37):
about and the things that he wastalking about.
He was basically giving you a,basically a synopsis of his book
and I went and bought that bookaudio version.
I just did an audio book aboutfive times back to back in a row
because I needed that messageright then at that time.
I need to listen to it again asa matter of fact.
I'm bringing that up to say thatyou're familiar with the 80-20
concept.

(01:30:58):
Right, 80% of your results comefrom 20% of your inputs.
So once you get to a certainlevel, if you want to get, let's
say, you're at 80% as anathlete, and this is a good
distinction for people tounderstand when you're an
athlete when you get to, you'reat the 80% level of sports.
So you're better than 80% ofpeople who play tennis and

(01:31:18):
you're a pro.
You need that last 20%.
You have to put in the work todo that last 20%.
That's why you can be a protennis player, but you still
have a trainer, even thoughyou're better than 99% of people
who play tennis, because you'retrying to beat that 1% who
you're not better than.
So you have to do the 80% ofinput to get that last 20% of
results, because that's the onlyway you'll be able to compete

(01:31:38):
at the professional level.
Same thing in basketball.
When I got good enough that Iwas better than 80% of people
who play ball, I still had tokeep training because I'm trying
to compete against the top 20%now.
I'm not trying to competeagainst the bums, I'm trying to
compete against the guys whoplay for money, so you had to
put that vast amount in.
Now in business it flips alittle bit because the business
is not objective, so there's noscoreboard.

(01:32:00):
So let's say, a professionalspeaker or as an author, I'm
better than 80% of people whospeak or write books.
I don't need to work on thisskill anymore.
What I need to work on iswhat's going to give me.
That last bump is the marketingand the sales and getting my
name out there.
That's how people are going tocome to know who I am, and
that's the 10X part is when Imastered the marketing, rather

(01:32:22):
than the 2X part was gettingbetter as a speaker.
It's like if I was to go to aconference and I was to go to a
workshop how to be a goodspeaker on stage.
I don't need that Somebody triedto sell me that a couple of
years ago and there was no way Iwas going to that.
Now, if they, would have sold methe marketing, then I would
have bought it, but they triedto sell me the skill of speaking
.
I don't need the skill ofspeaking and this is one of the
things that I do as a coach isyou need the insight to

(01:32:44):
understand what you need, and alot of people are very bad at
self-diagnosing what they need.
They self-diagnose they need toget better at doing the thing
when they actually need to getbetter at selling it.
So then they focus on thesethings that only produce
marginal results.
I could go to a workshop abouthow to speak on stage and I
would get better.
Assuming the teacher is anygood, I could probably get

(01:33:06):
better, but is that really goingto make a difference in my
business?
No, because if you can't bookthe stage, it doesn't matter how
good you are, because you neverget to get on stage and show
how good you are.
So if you don't book the stage,it doesn't matter.
And this goes to collapsingtimeframes, because we would
talk about this at the beginning.
The best way that someone likemyself let's just say, using
speaking as an example that Icould collapse a time frame is

(01:33:28):
if a speaker's bureau, who has awhole lot of calls coming in
was assigned me and they juststart booking stages for me.
So now I don't have to keepcalling people on the CRM,
they're taking the calls for meand they're booking me on stages
.
Now, every stage that I get ondoes several things.
Number one I get paid and makemoney.
Number two I, my brand growsbecause now I've been on these

(01:33:50):
stages.
So now he's been on that stage,been on that stage and that
stage he must be good.
I haven't gotten any better,but all of a sudden I must be
good because of where I've been,because of the law of
association.
I've been on this stage andthis day I spoke at Google, I
spoke at Microsoft.
I must be great because I'mspeaking at those places.

(01:34:11):
So it must make sense.
And in the business world it'sa bandwagon business.
So as soon as you start bookingone, two, three, now four, five
, six, seven, eight, noweverybody wants to book you.
And that's how it happens, andthat's how it can seem like
there's this big gap betweenthis guy and that guy, when it's
not really that.
It's just one thing, because ifthis guy has that one thing
happen, he'll be right up theretoo.
And the force and I call theseforce multipliers.
Force multipliers are skillsand abilities and outcomes that,

(01:34:34):
when they happen, they makeeverything else that you have
better.
They basically multiply allyour abilities.
skills.
skills.
Conversational skills are aforce multiplier because if you
get better at communicating, itmakes everything else you do
better.
There's no downside to gettingbetter at communicating.

(01:34:55):
Building relationships is aforce multiplier.
If you know more people who areabout something and they like
you, it only makes everythingelse you do better.
There's no downside to it.
What's another one?
And just having energy,confidence, those are force
multipliers.
They make everything better.
Your ability to sell is a forcemultiplier, meaning there's no

(01:35:16):
downside, and the better you getat it, the more it makes
everything else you havemultiply, so I call those force
multipliers.
So when it comes to collapsingtimeframes, speed is a force
multiplier.
Faster you can move with thesame level of skill, it makes
everything else better.
So if I was to get with and I'vetried this still trying trying
to get with bureaus, speakersbureaus Now there are downsides

(01:35:37):
to speakers bureaus and thereare upsides, and I'm just using
this as an example.
Downside is they get a cut ofthe money and also they kind of
get to dictate a little bit toyou how they do things, because
they're the ones taking the call.
They're not calling for you tocall for the bureau, but what
they can do is get me on somestages that I otherwise might
not be able to get on on my own.
So, for example, in speaking,sometimes I call someone and say

(01:35:59):
, hey, I'm a speaker?
I'm interested and I find theright person.
They say well, we do hirespeakers, but we only hire
speakers through a bureau.
We work with this bureau, thatbureau and that bureau.
Have you ever called one ofthem?
Because if you're notrepresented by them, we're not
going to hire you.
So now they tell me to go calla bureau.
I call a bureau, the bureaudoesn't respond and I can't get
through to the bureau and I gosubmit my information to them

(01:36:21):
and nobody calls me back.
So it's kind of like this yougot to get over that hump.
If I can get over that hump now, it opens up a whole new world.
And again I'm just using thisas an example.
So when it comes to collapsingtimeframes, again this is where
insight comes in, and this is mybest skill as a coach is
helping people take theinformation that's out there and
make sense of it and understandwho, what, when, where, why and

(01:36:43):
how to use it, not just whatthe information is.
Information is free, so nobodyhas a problem with information.
People's problem is applicationof information.
So for me, the force multipliersI'm always looking for.
So if I can find something orsomeone that can get my message
out to more people.
Then I can do everything elsebetter and everything else just

(01:37:06):
looks good and all of a sudden Ilook 100 times better than I
look now.
Again, I didn't get better.
I just look better because nowI have these force multipliers
that are all of a sudden justmaking me look bigger than I
actually am.
Now, of course, these are notall outside of my powers.
There are things that I can do.
I can put more money into ads.
I can just take every post I doon Instagram and put money

(01:37:27):
behind it.
There are all different thingsthat I can do and continue to do
, and make more calls and sendout more emails and all these
things.
So you want to basically have acombination of all this stuff
happening at the same time, soyou give yourself the most
opportunities for someserendipity to happen.

Klara (01:37:44):
Yeah, I love that, I agree and just want to touch on
a little bit the confidence.
I think that is important whenyou're talking to these people
to have confidence, come upconfident and know your
credibility.
I do want to share one morestory.
Actually, you mentioned SerenaWilliams, and it is so true
because I have some insightsfrom my tennis friends that

(01:38:04):
actually end up making itprofessional.
But when they played Serena,they already went on the court
with a mindset that they hadlost.
And it's actually everythingaround her.
It's the posture, right.
So knowing what your evenphysical abilities and strengths
are, which I never appreciated,mine like I'm a six foot tall,

(01:38:25):
so I have some pretty good frame.
So if you actually carryyourself with confidence on the
court, like that alone plays onthe mental game of the opponent,
and Serena just has so much ofit.
She has the toughness, she hasthe physical ability, the skill,
the body posture, and so whenmy friends that are maybe one
head shorter and tinier went onthe court, I was like, oh my God

(01:38:46):
, I can never even return thestroke because she has so much
power and just the grit.
And so going on that court,especially in tennis, because
it's the one-on-one game.
So I feel like it's a veryenergy game.
It's like one or the other, andyou can actually sense the
energy of the player being up ordown if you pay enough
attention.
It's quite important having theconfidence.

(01:39:07):
So I just wanted to share thatstory and I know we're way over
time.
And maybe just one thing Icaught on your videos recently
you talking about working out.
I'm sure confidence, at leastfor me, translates a lot from
being active still and doingsome physical activity, because
it helps me with my posture,which is also very important on

(01:39:29):
the stage.
Curious about what your workoutroutine is like or what have
you found out works best for you?
I know you've mentioned youhave some injuries from
basketball too, which everypersonal athlete has somewhere
in there from so much abuseduring the years.
We tried to push our bodies toand past our limits.

(01:39:49):
But what works best for you,dre?

Dre (01:39:51):
So these days workout routine is I like to run three
times a week and I go to boxinggym the other days.
So that's the running is stilla challenge because basketball
is a lot of running.
So you put all that wear andtear on your joints the ankle
joint, the knee and the hipsRunning.
I don't know how much longerI'm going to keep running

(01:40:12):
because I'm right-handed.
In basketball you jump off yourleft foot.
My left Achilles is a littlesore.
Knees get a little sore.
Boxing is fine because eventhough you move your legs in
boxing, it's nothing like themovement that you do in
basketball.
Boxing is more upper body andit's footwork, but it's not
running.
So that's what I doworkout-wise, but still work out

(01:40:33):
every day.
I've always had a personalstandard that I'm going to be in
professional athlete shape,meaning that if somebody asks me
what I do for a living, that'show I'm a professional athlete.
So I can still do that, Even inthe boxing gym.
Sometimes people ask me Ithought you were a pro boxer,
because they see me in there allthe time working out.
And I'm like no, I used to playbasketball.

(01:40:53):
I'm not a boxer.
I wouldn't even try to be aboxer if I was trying to the
point being that's just astandard for me to be in shape,
and it absolutely translatesthat when you're in good
physical shape, it translates toeverything else that you do,
because when people see you walkinto a room I know this is true
for men and I'm sure it's truefor women as well, especially as
you're tall that people viewyou differently when you're in

(01:41:16):
shape than when you're not inshape.
That matters a ton and ittranslates to them thinking that
you may have other abilitiesthat you might not even have,
just because you look goodphysically, and that is a thing.
And again, human nature is notlogical, but it's yeah, nine
percent plus.

Klara (01:41:34):
It's my own brain.
Actually, more than anything, Ihate being out of shape.
I feel crappy about myself andif you feel specific way, I
think it again, the energytranslates and resonates.
So right.
I always say working out is oneof the maybe good addictions
that I've gotten from myathletic years.
There's many that aren't good.
I work out just to feel decentabout being a human, because if

(01:41:57):
I don't, I actually feel awfulabout myself, which, again, is
not the most positive part of me, but I tend to accept it
because it creates the positiveoutcome of me putting in the
work every day and trying tostay in shape.
Yeah, thank you so much, dre,for the fun conversation.
Anything you want to close outwith open mic that you want
people to take away, I will addthe links again from last

(01:42:21):
episode to this one as well, sothey can easily check out all
your Instagram, youtube andbooks and websites.
But anything else you want toget out, Well, I appreciate this
conversation.

Dre (01:42:33):
I had a lot of fun in this question.
What I would tell people isthink about that doing the thing
versus selling the thing andit's really important,
especially as you get into theprofessional world where money
is being exchanged, that yourability to sell the thing is
more important than your abilityto do the thing, because we've
all seen people who might noteven be that good at doing, but
they're good at selling, so theyget opportunity.

(01:42:53):
So learning how to sell yourstuff and sell yourself is a
force multiplier skill that canhelp you move forward a lot
faster than just getting betterat doing it.

Klara (01:43:03):
I love that and we've had several conversations actually
with some of my girlfriends onthe podcast like learning how to
talk about yourself, yourachievements and your wins.
People always say it's reallyhard and it's unnatural, and I
agree.
I think it's unnatural toeveryone other than those small
percentage of people who mightbe naturally born narcissists

(01:43:23):
and if those are, that youprobably don't want to associate
yourselves with those.
But I think it's a skill likeanything else.
You just got to learn how toarticulate your worth, your
strengths and skill, and thatgoes across anything business
being an athlete Actually, youtalked about it as well as if
you're looking for any sort ofjob interviews, et cetera.

(01:43:44):
I think it's very critical andimportant to articulate those,
so I love that.
Closing, thank you so much,trey, and have an awesome
weekend ahead.

Dre (01:43:52):
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me on,Claire.
I had a great time.

Klara (01:43:55):
If you enjoyed this episode, I want to ask you to
please do two things that wouldhelp me greatly.
One, please consider leaving areview on Apple Podcasts,
spotify or any other podcastingplatform that you use to listen
to this episode.
Two, please share this podcastwith a friend who you believe
might enjoy it as well.
It is a great way to remindsomeone you care about them by

(01:44:17):
sharing a conversation theymight be interested in.
Thank you for listening.

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Klara Jagosova

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