84. Maciek Szczesniak︱Unleashing SMB Growth Through Trust

Episode Transcript
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Maciek (00:00):
A large corporation will have someone who is really
focused on understanding thistechnology.
They have nothing else to do.
They don't need to sell, theydon't need to do finance, they
don't need to do HR, they don'tneed to do anything else.
They are the guy responsiblefor figuring out the technology,
be it the CIO or director ofthe data center or whoever CIO

(00:24):
or director of the data centeror whoever.
So the sales process will bevery much focused on the
technology itself.
There will be discussions aboutthe gigabytes and terabytes and
throughputs and the performancemeasurement of the technology
itself.
What I like about SMB is andseveral times I've tried that
and I failed miserably to go andtalk about gigabytes and

(00:47):
megabytes and this kind of stuff.
To the small and mediumbusinesses, the conversation is
a pure business conversation.
They don't care if the box isblack or white.
They care what this box isgoing to do for me.
How is it going to improve mybusiness?
It has to either lower my cost,make me more efficient or drive
additional revenue, or pleasemy customers or please my

(01:09):
employees.
Okay, so it's a completelydifferent conversation.
I cannot tell you how manytimes I had internally with an
HBA, a conversation with aproduct marketing organization
when they would come and presentthe new product that they are
going to sell to SMB, trying totell me, well, but this product
holds four hard drives and sixmemory modules, and I was like I

(01:31):
don't give a damn.
You know, being the voice ofthe SMB customer, I want to know
is it quiet, is it lowmaintenance?
Can it be remotely serviced,and what is it going to do for
me?

Klara (01:42):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the
Grand Slam Journey podcast,where we discuss topics related
to sports, business technology,underlined by leadership.
My today's guest is , aka Magic.
Magic is an experienced generalmanager, channel sales
executive and go-to-marketleader with a career at the

(02:05):
intersection of business andtechnology and deep expertise in
helping brands unleash growthin the small to medium-sized
segment.
We cover it all music, sports,business technology, career
progressions and leadership tips.
I launched this conversation invideo format last September on

(02:26):
YouTube, but I'm just nowgetting to release it in audio
format.
I apologize for the delay toyou, my listeners and my guest
Magic.
A lot has happened in the pastyear and I'm finding my creative
podcasting rhythm and cadenceagain.
I may have a new, moresustainable plan, but I may have
to test out how executable itis.

(02:47):
If you enjoyed this episode,please consider subscribing to
the podcast, dedicating oneminute of your time to provide
an official review, or perhapsyou may decide to share this
conversation with someone youbelieve may enjoy it as well as
always.
Conversation with someone youbelieve may enjoy it as well as

(03:08):
always.
Thank you for tuning in andenjoy the listen.
Hello Magic, happy Thursday andthis afternoon for you.
Welcome to the Grand SlamJourney podcast.
How is Poland?

Maciek (03:16):
It's fantastic.
Talking about Grand Slam, youknow Iga Świątek made it to the
semifinals on Roland Garros inthe Olympics, which we Polish
are extremely proud of.
She's going like a champthrough all the games and we
obviously support her.
Today she's going to playanother game and then I think I
hope that during the weekendwe're going to see her in the

(03:37):
finals.
So keep your fingers crossedfor Iga.

Klara (03:41):
She's been fantastic fun to watch.
I guess a little bit of badluck on the Wimbledon, but good
luck for us Czechs.
So that was awesome for me towatch the finals.
She's definitely in her realmand playing fantastically the
past, I guess, this year or evenlast year.
It's always fun to watch herand it's awesome to have a

(04:02):
fellow neighbor.
I haven't had anyone fromPoland on the podcast yet, so
it's a fun fact for anyone whomay or know, Czech Republic and
Poland are neighboring countries.
I think people may know whereto place Poland but given Czech
is so small, they never trulyknow where in Europe Czech
Republic is.

Maciek (04:20):
Poland is typically mixed up with Holland.
When I say I'm from Poland,they say like Amsterdam, oh,
great, great man.
That's right.
But that's not the case.
Czechia has a beautiful city ofPrague, obviously, and is very
well known for that.
I've been to Prague severaltimes and I mean congratulations
.
It's such a wonderful city,great to go to, so I'm sure

(04:41):
you're inviting all your friendsto go and visit your country.
I Great to go to, so I'm sureyou're inviting all your friends
to go and visit your country.

Klara (04:45):
I've had a lot of touring , especially in college, because
when you're an internationalstudent I studied in the US we
would trade the countriesbecause you end up being friends
with mostly the internationalstudents, so I visit them, then
they visit us.
So I was a Prague tour guide,for sure, for many years while I
was in college and some of myfellow international friends

(05:07):
were visiting me, and I want todive into your Grand Slam
journey of a fantastic career.
You have been building, I know,your focus for many years and
now going forward will be alsosmall, medium-sized businesses,
which is something I'mpassionate about.
My parents started businessright after Revolution.
They auctioned a store and itwas something that changed the

(05:30):
trajectory of our family andsort of the opportunities that
even I and my sister had goingforward the ability for me to
play tennis and travel and theneventually inspired my passion
to study business, and so I wantto learn a little bit more
about your journey, but alsoyour upbringing.
So we'll dive into that, butfirst I want to give you an

(05:51):
opportunity to introduceyourself.
I know we had a conversation.
For anybody who's confused, weagree to call you Magic.
I think it's a fantastic name,but I don't want to butcher your
Polish real name, so pleasetake it forward.

Maciek (06:04):
Yeah, my real name is Maciek Szczesniak, which is a
complete tongue twister.
That's why, for the last 25years, everybody was telling me
I've been known as Magic, thekind of a kid with wands and
spells.
That's me.
It's been a magical journeyover so many years I've been.

(06:24):
For 25 years I've been workingfor Copac, hp and HPE, but my
journey with technology startedeven beforehand.
There are more similarities thatyou and I have, because I
understand from your webpagethat you've been playing piano.
Well, I finished a musicalschool.

(06:45):
So when you've been playingpiano and then playing tennis
and then perfecting your game, Istarted as a musician and the
dream of my parents was that Ibecome a musician, I play in the
orchestra, I travel the worldwith the orchestra and then,
like for you, my parents, afterthe changes that happened in the

(07:08):
Eastern Europe after thecommunist fall, they also opened
a private business.
My father opened a company, asmall company, and that has
changed completely the way mylife has shaped, because being a
musician was no longer such abig story in Poland and I
decided to go into business andI wasn't a great musician, by

(07:28):
the way.
So it's for the goodness ofeverybody that they don't need
to listen to me playing, eventhough I still, you know, from
time to time take a guitar andplay for my three daughters, and
they like it a lot.

Klara (07:42):
That's fantastic.
I wish I hear you play one dayMagic, it's just to insert.
My piano finished almost on theverge as my tennis was starting
, because my piano teacher saidyour hands and fingers get too
tight, so somehow the holdingthe racket and then playing a
piano didn't fully go hand inhand, so unfortunately I had to

(08:05):
stop that, but I still love it.
It's my favorite instrument and, yeah, that's the one if I
actually had time.
I've been contemplating shouldI go play some piano, take some
more lessons, because it's sorelaxing.
You just focus on the music andit's a great way to disconnect
from the busy world.

Maciek (08:23):
It is a great opportunity.
I played piano, oboe and violinat school.

Klara (08:27):
Wow.

Maciek (08:29):
And at a certain point in time on my journey through
the world, when I moved fromWarsaw, I started with Compaq in
1998, and very quickly I wasproposed to move to Germany, to
Munich, where we had theEuropean headquarters.
So I moved from Poland to theEuropean headquarters Because at

(08:51):
the same time I was doing anMBA study and working in a new
country in a new environment.
Having something to take yourmind off was super important for
me.
So guess what?
Before I bought any furniturefor my apartment, I bought a
piano.
And my way of disconnecting andstopping all the craziness of
the day between new job and theschool was to just sit down and

(09:16):
just practice a little bit andplay piano a little bit.
And I still enjoy it from timeto time when there's really kind
of a crazy situation, eventhough my way of dealing with
stress and focusing on somethingelse is to go and do rock
climbing.
So for the last 10 years Istarted doing the rock climbing.
Generally speaking, I'm a crazysports guy, not a professional

(09:40):
like you were, but I just liketo do a lot of sports.
I've been running marathons,I've been hiking marathons.
I've been hiking, riding bikes,windsurfing, I play bridge very
regularly and my latest lovefor the last, I think, 10 years
is bouldering and rock climbing.
I do it two, three times a weekand I really, really, really

(10:03):
enjoy it, because when you areon the wall you know you're kind
of climbing up.
You have to think about thisparticular thing, you know if
you start thinking about the job, you typically fall off.

Klara (10:16):
I love that connection of the mind and body and needed to
be focused.
Maybe I should start rockclimbing.
Obviously, tennis was thatoutlet for me, because when
you're on the court there's somany things and if you don't
have your mind on the ball youjust don't play well.
For many reasons, includingjust I've played tennis way too
much.
So for professional athletes, Iwould say, with general health

(10:37):
and fitness you get healthierand have better life, but with
professional athletes you getcloser to retirement and so
especially the sport that I'veplayed the most is actually the
one that hurts me the most.
So this last injury I had reallyput me on a bench for about
five months and I'm still notpatient with injuries even in
this day and age.
So I'm looking for a new thingthat I can actually do and have

(11:00):
that mind connection, because Ido work out, go for a run, but
when you're running your mind isstill going.
Even in the workouts in the gymit's like different.
So I need something to fullyfocus on.
So I'm contemplating aboutpickleball.
Just yesterday I was textingsome of my girlfriends.
Although I hated the sport atthe beginning, I was like is
this really what I have totransition to?

Maciek (11:20):
So maybe bouldering and rock climbing might be better
Psychologically transition to.
So maybe bouldering and ropeclimbing might be better.
It's psychologically is greatbecause you always go up.
Okay it's, it's a total body,you know, kind of a development
right, because you need to use alot of muscles.
And it's also about stretchingbecause you need to reach far

(11:41):
and twist yourself and move.
The more mobility and the morepower you get, the better you
are.
And, believe me, it's not onlyabout kind of a shifting
yourself on your hands, it'salso twisting your body and
adjusting.
And I have been kind of apromoting bouldering to a lot of

(12:01):
people recently and they comeand start and they are much more
powerful than I am, like moreathletic and everything.
But because I have thistechnique now and I move and I
have the balance and I have theattitude and the technique, I
just do it much better than them, even though they are much
stronger than I am franklysaying, clara.
So give it a try.

(12:22):
It's extremely, extremely goodwhen you are traveling a lot,
like I used to travel a lot withCompact HP and HP and I
continue to travel a lot.
It's also a very good sportbecause you can do it almost
anywhere.
So most of the main cities have, you know, a climbing wall
where you can go and for a smallfee you know, kind of take an

(12:44):
hour or two off of climbing, andall you need to take with
yourself, you know, on thetravel it's some kind of a pair
of sports pants or kind ofclothing which you normally take
anyway, and a special shoes.
Everything else you can rent.
You don't need to drag anythingwith you.
So there's no you know kind ofa complicated equipment or

(13:06):
whatever.
I also like the rock climbingand bouldering community because
people are extremely friendly,because, especially when you go
and do elite climbing, you needsomeone to belay you, which
means you will have to get toknow a person and trust the
person to not let go.

(13:27):
So it typically involves alittle bit of a conversation and
a discussion and a kind ofexchange of ideas.
So it's a mind opening, youknow kind of a collaboration,
you know kind of incentivizingand very good for your body.
Sport, and I think it's gettingmore and more attention.

(13:48):
If you're watching the Olympics, the sport I think for the
first or for the second time, isfully in the Olympics.
Next week there will bebouldering and leap climbing and
speed climbing.
We'll be there to watch.
So something really, reallyfantastic.

Klara (14:02):
We'll give it a try.
I put it here Look up ropeclimbing, bouldering gyms in
Austin, and I love what youmentioned, even building the
trust Somebody you don't know,because I did it only once with
my sister she had a rockclimbing wall at her university
and so that's sort of natural.
You know, siblings, we trusteach other in many ways by
default, just the bond of thefamily.

(14:23):
But I haven't considered thetravel aspect and the shoes are
actually very packable becausethey're so thin so it's easy to
take on the road and I like thatcomponent of creating new
relationships with people, newcities, and kind of created that
trust bond while you'reclimbing up a rock.
So yeah, that's a great idea.

Maciek (14:43):
It's a very, very, very positive uh, community.
I must say, you know, I've been, you know, kind of a training,
a lot of a lot of sports and, uh, generally, I like everything
that is connect, anything thatis connected with mountains.
So I also like hiking.
Um, I'm gonna be hiking inbulgaria in a week from now and
in Slovenia in about two weeks.

(15:04):
I've been hiking in the US, inacross Europe, in Japan as well.
You know anything with mountainskiing.
I'm a crazy skier, I love it.
I absolutely, I'm absolutelycrazy.
You know, it's like when theyopen at 8 30, I'm there and when
they finish, you know the day,at 4 30, they kick me out,
typically as the last personfrom the slot.

(15:26):
That's me, I love it.
That's one of my passions in myprivate life.
Obviously, in my professionallife, my passion was always
technology.
I mentioned to you that Iworked for Compaq, hp and HP.
But I should tell you, clara,when I was kind of preparing for
this conversation, I cast mymind back and, honestly,

(15:50):
technology started before Istarted to work for Compaq.
It was when I left, when Istopped being a musician, I mean
when I finished musical schooland I went to the business
school.
My father who opened hisbusiness.
He bought a computer for me andhe said well, I'm buying you a
computer, but not for you toplay games.

(16:12):
But I want you to figure outhow we can use the computer for
my business.
So you go and test it out.
Obviously I was a little bithelping him and a little bit
installing some stupid games andplaying them, but I very
quickly figured out that it wasvery quickly becoming outdated.
I wanted a faster computer thana better, so I started to

(16:34):
replace certain components inthe computer and before I knew
it I started to build computersfor myself, then for my family,
then for the entire network offriends and family and everybody
else.
And this is how I went intobecoming a guy who was selling
computers at the university.
And after the university Istarted to look for options to

(16:57):
grow my career and Compaq wasthe natural fit.
It was a great company.
I was super happy that I gotaccepted to Compact.
So my technology journey isprobably more than 25 years old.

Klara (17:12):
Yeah, and how fantastic.
It seems like you replaced onepassion for another and then
created that Compact journey.
So tell me more about thatjourney and you kind of
highlighted what led you to it.
It seems like your parents inmany ways inspired the
transition to technology for youto help them with the business,

(17:32):
and then you uncovered yourpassion.
But what else do you want toadd to it?

Maciek (17:37):
Magic.
My passion was also, veryquickly, you know, it was not
assembly of the computers whichwas interesting, but it was the
interaction with others.
I think you know one of thethings I really enjoyed is, you
know, kind of getting out thereand speaking with people and
kind of being the evangelist forthe technology.
When I started at Compaq I wasthe first product manager for

(17:58):
Compaq Notebooks in Poland ever.
You know, like they created theposition, I took it and very
quickly I ended up kind ofthrowing a couple of notebooks
into the back of my car anddriving around Poland and
meeting the channel partners andhaving a conversation with them
and building this channelnetwork in Poland.
That was extremely successful.

(18:19):
That's why I was supposed tomove to Munich, to the European
headquarters.
And I think the next reallygreat thing that I gained
through Compaq and then HP andHP is this international
experience.
I learned so much about thedifferent cultures and living in
another country.
You know you experienced thatyourself living in the US.

(18:41):
I lived in Germany for sevenyears.
And Germany and Poland thereare a lot of differences in the
mindset, in how people approachdaily routine.
Even the language is different.
The Polish language is allchaotic and the grammar is not
very structured.
As opposed to Germany andGerman, everything is extremely

(19:03):
well structured, well thoughtthrough, maybe a little bit
slower, but extremely efficientas well.
So I lived in Germany and whatI discovered is, through this
technology, I could connect withmore and more people with
different culture.
I moved from the Europeanheadquarters to the global
headquarters and I worked withemerging countries like Colombia

(19:28):
, philippines and Saudi Arabia.
I've been in Ukraine.
I've been in many, many smallercountries, driving marketing
activities in those placesbusiness development.
So I spent six months in Chinaworking on a project for HP.
So what was really great aboutthis is the technology.

(19:51):
The passion for technologyenabled the passion for
international communities andinternational collaboration.
And then, when I started tothink about my place in the
organization, it was always thechannel, and the channel is
always about collaboration withthe small and medium businesses,

(20:13):
because there's 350 millionsmall and medium businesses
around the world.
There is no single companytoday that can build a sales
force that will cover such avast amount of businesses.
So typically, the best way forthe technology companies to

(20:33):
reach to the small and mediumbusiness was to build a very,
very solid channel, which meanseven more people reaching to
even more people.
And SMB.
I need to tell you, clara, thatSMB has one massive advantage
from the business perspectivebecause there are so many small

(20:53):
and medium businesses around theworld and they are so diverse
and they are so much leaning ontrust when making their business
decisions.
It's a perfect spot for me.
First of all, it's much lessabout being it is competitive,
but it's competitive in apositive way because there's so

(21:15):
much opportunity.
The competition is slightlydifferent.
It's not kind of a punchingthrough.
It's more collaboration andexplanation and building a trust
.
It's way more than in theenterprise business.
That's why I like it okay,because I prefer to have a trust
relationship and a goodrelationship and a positive
relationship than a cutthroatcompetition.

(21:37):
And again, you know small andmedium businesses, the selling
process is completely differentthan enterprise and I prefer the
selling process because theselling process in the small and
medium business is aboutgaining a trust and explaining
and getting the understandingfrom the decision makers rather
than, you know, kind of a nittygritty discussion.

(21:59):
And then when the small andmedium businesses make the
decision about the purchase,they typically move very quickly
into the execution.
There's no processes andticking the boxes and RFQs and
endless conversations and younever know what's the hidden
agenda and this kind of stuff.
It's very straightforward andbeing Eastern European you

(22:22):
understand.
We Eastern Europeans aretypically very straightforward,
to the point.
You know heart on the plate andthat's why I'm a great fit for
the SMB side.

Klara (22:36):
I love what you had mentioned, the trust and
collaboration and I see thisthrough line even where we
opened with your bouldering andsome of your activities that
seem like it's a personalitymatch all along.
And actually recognizing thatand describing the differences
in the selling process that havebeen diving deeper into the SMB

(22:56):
space.
How have you uncovered that SMBearly on early on, it seems
like the way you describe it.
You had fallen into it.
Or did you seek out thatopportunity early on?
Was it just where the marketwas opening up and you saw that
this is maybe the right way forsome of the rising upcoming
companies, to serve them, tocreate the change, perhaps even

(23:20):
for your upbringing and youseeing that difference early on?
As you mentioned, your parentshad a SMB and you saw what
computers did for them.
Or was there something else toit?

Maciek (23:30):
It's a combination of things.
As I mentioned when I startedto work a lot with a channel,
with a channel partners.
This is where they thrive andprovide support for the vendor.
So when I was working for thevendor, when I was working with
the channel partners, the mainvalue that the vendor would
bring would be the big contractsfor the channel partners.

(23:51):
The main value that the channelpartners would bring to the
vendor, especially smallerchannel partners, was the
connection locally to the localcommunities and the local small
businesses.
So, naturally, traveling inPoland to those different cities
and connecting with the channelpartners, I got invited to
meetings and discussions withthe local hero, to the local

(24:12):
businesses, you know, to have aconversation and understand
what's going on.
So that became a natural story.
And then you know myspecialization.
The way I work with people is tobuilding trust through
programmatic approach, throughcollaboration, through kind of a
volume impact, if you will,impacting the larger communities

(24:33):
.
I mean it comes from the musicwhen I had to go on the stage
and play something.
I still like it, I still liketo go on stage and say something
.
So I still do a lot ofpresentations and speeches and
keynotes and that's the impacton a larger group of people and
again, you know when I thinkabout small and medium

(24:54):
businesses, they like to listenabout the technology because
they see technology as anopportunity you know they can
use to improve their corebusiness.
So I think one thing led to theother and I think the last
element that was reallyinteresting with a corporation
like HPHPE because I started towork in a server division the

(25:20):
small and medium businesssegment from the server point of
view was a place that had waymore freedom for the executive
to make decisions.
Again, because it's a very openand transparent space.
I found that I could, being thevoice of SMBs inside HP and HPE,

(25:44):
I could convince a lot ofpeople for the ideas that I had.
So there were a lot of expertsin the enterprise business.
There were relatively muchfewer experts within the large
organization about the small andmedium business and that's a
very typical situation for a lotof large organizations.
That I figured out Now that I'mpart of the B2SMB Institute and

(26:10):
I spoke with a lot of largecorporations.
They all have very similarchallenges Enterprise, fortune
500 companies everybody runsafter those logos and there are
relatively fewer people withinthe large organizations
interested and specializing inthe small and medium business.
They seem to have very similarchallenges but also similar

(26:34):
opportunities of being able tomaybe do something better and
faster than their kind of alarge corporations-focused
brethren.

Klara (26:44):
Do you find that there's difference between the people
who are attracted more to thisSMB space versus the people who
work with a larger enterprise?
And again, I say from yourexperience, you've been kind of
looking overall from a businessperspective but you saw that
your passion and the way yourcharacter is built matches more

(27:08):
with the SMB.
What I'm hearing also, you hada little bit more autonomy in
creating and building thatbusiness and probably with that
little bit of creativity, howyou want to approach it and go
after it.
And I 100% agree it's reallyhard for enterprises to scale
that and build that and servethem because there is much more
variety.

(27:28):
Some of the numbers I have seenis there's actually 99.9% of
businesses fall into the SMBright.
The large enterprise fall under.
It's just very small percentage, but those are the ones that is
easier to serve because you canassign people to these large
enterprises and then SMBs driveroughly 50% of global GDP.

(27:50):
So just such an importantpillar.

Maciek (27:54):
Depends on the country.
You know there are countrieswhere, like, if you go to Kenya
okay, to the emerging countriesyou will find that 90% of the
workforce work for the small andmedium business.
The US is a little bit of anexception.
It's like 50-50 or 60-40 maybeof the workforce and the GDP as

(28:15):
well.
You know, like 50-50.
But in many companies you go tosuper S&P countries like Italy,
for example, spain or Asiancountries, you will find that
the S&Ps are responsible for70-plus percent of the GDP.
So it's a massive market andvery diverse, very hungry for

(28:37):
business and very collaborative,and that's the good thing to
mention here.
Here is the difference, clara.
Imagine a super large company.
When we are talking about, again, technology and I'm not an
expert in other types ofbusiness technology specifically
a large corporation will havesomeone who is really focused on

(29:02):
understanding this technology.
They have nothing else to do.
They don't need to sell, theydon't need to do finance, they
don't need to do HR, they don'tneed to do anything else.
They are the guy responsiblefor figuring out the technology,
be it the CIO or director ofthe data center or whoever.

(29:22):
So the sales process will bevery much focused on the
technology itself.
There will be discussions aboutthe gigabytes and megabytes and
terabytes and throughputs andthe performance measurement of
the technology itself.
What I like about SMB is, ifyou admit it and several times

(29:45):
I've tried that and I failedmiserably to go and talk about
gigabytes and megabytes and thiskind of stuff to the small and
medium businesses.
The conversation is a businessconversation.
It's a pure businessconversation.
They don't care if the box isblack or white, they care what
this box is going to do for me.

(30:05):
How is it going to improve mybusiness?
It has to either lower my cost,make me more efficient or drive
additional revenue, or pleasemy customers or please my
employees, okay.
So it's a completely differentconversation.
I cannot tell you how manytimes I had internally with an
HBA, a conversation with aproduct marketing organization,

(30:27):
when they would come and presentthe new product that they are
going to sell to SMB, trying totell me well, but this product
holds four hard drives and sixmemory modules, and I was like I
don't give a damn.
You know, being the voice ofthe SMB customer, I want to know
is it quiet, Is it lowmaintenance, is it going to
break down, can it be remotelyserviced and what is it going to

(30:50):
do for me?
You know, like I'm an SMBcustomer, what is it going to do
for me?
And the challenge that manycompanies are facing when we are
starting to have this kind of aconversation is many companies,
when they are startups and theyare the SMB themselves, they
grow because they come up with areally nice technology.

(31:13):
The greatest companies of todaythat are so hot and cold, like
Databricks or Snowflake or, youknow, weeds there are those
names they typically come up tothe market with a super cool
technology and they go to thoseFortune 500 companies and they

(31:33):
find those technology lovers onthe other side of the
conversation, on the other sideof the table, and they say I
have a cool technology.
And the other technology guysays, well, I love your
technology.
And then they start selling andthen they go to the next and
the next and then they reach the500 companies in the Fortune
500 list and the growth isfantastic.

(31:54):
Every year they grow 30%, 50%,year over year.
It's so great and they sellthemselves, they go IPO, they
have stakeholders, stockholders,whatever.
At a certain point in time thelist of 500 companies is
exhausted and suddenly thosecompanies, a lot of technology

(32:15):
companies have this problem.
At a certain point in time,they will have to go to the
501st company or 521st companyand at a certain point in time,
there will be no technologylover sitting on the other side
of the table.
There will be the owner, thebusiness person.
The further down the market yougo, the more person.

(32:38):
The further down market you go,the more likely you're going to
encounter a businessman, a realentrepreneur, making the
decision about the purchase ofyour technology.
And this is where you need tocompletely change your narrative
.
You need to start talking aboutthe business outcomes.
You need to talk about not theperformance of your technology,
but the performance of thebusiness of this guy that you

(32:59):
are collaborating or conversingor negotiating with, and a lot
of technology companies struggleto do that.
And I think this is where B2SMBInstitute is helping, my
expertise is helping and mypassion is helping.

Klara (33:16):
I love that.
Thanks for describing and Iwant to dive into the B2SMB
Institute and some of yourvision and what you see for SMBs
going forward.
We talked on a last call and Ithought it's really interesting,
but before we go there I wantto go a little bit deeper into
some of the internationalcomponents that you had
mentioned.
You work with many differentcountries.

(33:37):
I've been privileged to get toknow people from many different
countries early on throughtennis because I traveled around
the world, and so I think thatreally helped me.
Tournaments being in the centerand people from all different
countries gather to playinspired the passion of
individualization.
We all are unique and have ourown background, and it's still

(33:58):
one of my core strengths nowactually in business that I use
kind of looking at that specificperson and the skills and
strength they bring, given theirupbringing and culture
background they come from.
But I've also, even at Apple inmy last role, I worked with
many different countries andmany different companies in
different continents and it wasreally interesting.
You start seeing this trendbetween how the culture shapes

(34:22):
them and maybe it's due to thelanguage and the customs etc.
But anything you want tohighlight let's say, companies
or countries you really enjoyedworking with and maybe some that
you didn't.
If there's something like thatexists, but you would want to
highlight this culture wasreally difficult for me to work
with for this or that reason.

Maciek (34:42):
I look at this slightly from a different angle, clara.
Okay, so I'm a, I'm a, I'm anexecutive, okay, and and I
worked with large organizationsand I managed large organization
and I think, as a manager, Iwas told, uh, I was told there
was a manager.
His name was Chuck Smith.
He was my boss 10 years ago,maybe 15.

(35:03):
And he told me Magic.
Your role as a manager is tounderstand for every person what
is their best contribution tothe organization.
You need to understand it.
That's your most important job.
Understand each and everyperson in your organization or

(35:24):
manager in your leadership team.
What are the advantages orqualities or capabilities that
they bring?
You need to maximize thosecapabilities for the benefit of
the organization and then, ifthey do a good job, you need to
go and tell them that they aredoing a good job.

(35:44):
This is what you need to doRecognize who does something
really good, let them do that,or deploy them to do that, and
then tell them about it.
Recognize that, okay, ideally,publicly and then tell them
about it.
Recognize that, okay, ideally,publicly.
And I think this is one of thebest advices that I got in my
leadership development, and Iapply exactly the same rule to

(36:09):
the cultures and nations.
There are nations Germans areextremely well-structured.
So what you need to do is, whenyou have a project, you want to
go to the German team and youwant to work with them on how to
structure this project so it'sexecuted extremely well.

(36:29):
By the way, similar qualitiesJapanese organization possesses,
the Japanese team has alwaysbeen at the forefront of how do
I plan the project so thisproject can be executed with a
super precision and superquality.

(36:50):
However I'm sorry, my Germanfriends, india team will be both
Germans and Japanese, or Indiaor Italy, you know, for example,
will beat the Germans and theJapanese on creativity.
I loved brainstorming with theIndia team, or with the Italian

(37:11):
team, you know, or with theLatin America teams, like Mexico
, for example.
Go and put the idea on thetable and ask the question is it
a good idea?
And you know, if you do that inJapan, they'll ask you 1,500
questions and at the end of theday, they will tell you whether
the idea is good or bad.
If you go to India and you say,is it a good idea?

(37:32):
They'll start brainstormingwith you and come up with 10
other ideas.
You know you might not end uphaving a judgment on your idea,
but you will find like 1500other possibilities and
opportunities.
So I think this is exactly thesame like with you know
individuals, the countries orthe cultures.
Obviously I don't want togeneralize it you know there are

(37:53):
Indian people that areextremely well-structured and
there are German people that areextremely creative,
okayructured, and there areGerman people that are extremely
creative.
So generalizations are nevergood.
But I had to know where to goand ask for help and for
connections and collaborationand I knew that certain teams

(38:13):
will jump on it.
If I had an idea, I knew thatthere are certain countries that
I can go to and present it tothem and they will kind of jump
with me on this and try to putthis together and execute.
And typically the more creativewould require a little bit more
hand-holding in the execution,which I'm good because I'm crazy

(38:35):
Polish who lived in Germany, soI have both qualities a little
bit more hand-holding in theexecution, which I'm good
because I'm crazy Polish wholived in Germany, so I have both
qualities a little bit.
Then, when you've kind of honedyour idea and you pilot it in
one country and then go, let'ssay, to Japan, and you have this
conversation and the Japaneseteam would commit to me that
they are going to execute.

(38:56):
I just could go back home andjust ring back in three months
and ask them how they are doingand they would just tell me we
are 60% done.
No need for control andmilestones and checking, because
they were so good on theexecution that they would
deliver.
I knew they don't need anyhandholding, they just need the
freedom to act.

(39:16):
And they were obviously alwaysextremely good.
And I have tons of examples andthe situations when I was taken
completely, you know, bysurprise by the super quality of
execution in Japan andcompletely blown away by ideas
that would come from Spain,italy, you know, kind of India

(39:38):
or Mexico, okay, so I cannottell you that there would be a
country that I liked more orliked less.
I knew that there are countrieswith certain qualities that I
wanted to use to the benefit,for the benefit of the
organization, and that's how Idid approach my job.

Klara (39:59):
I love you highlighting that and actually looking at the
aspects differently.

Maciek (40:03):
Because I've heard so many times from my colleagues
you know like I cannot work withthis and this nation.
I cannot work with them and Ialways said like, take a step
back.
They cannot work with you.
You are behaving like you know.
They don't like to be treatedlike that.
You need to have respect.

(40:23):
You're asking them forsomething they don't like to do
and they are not capable ofdoing.
They need to convince them andinspire them by letting them do
what they love to do.
I mean, none of us likes to dothe stuff that we don't like to
do.
There are people that like to Idon't know paint beautiful
pictures.

(40:44):
If you ask them to sit down inan Excel spreadsheet, you're not
going to like it.
You know there are some peoplethat love Excel spreadsheets,
but if you would ask them to goon stage and present something,
they would just run away.
And you just need to balancethat across the organization.
Only then the organization canreally thrive and drive the
growth and expansion.

Klara (41:05):
Yeah, I love again highlighting the recognition.
And then, do you had or createdthat skill?
Is there anything particularlyyou can pinpoint magic to the
skill that it helped you uncoverand recognize?
Because, as you mentioned,there's people who get it, some
people that don't.
Do you practice it?

(41:26):
Are you born with it?
Or maybe a little bit in themiddle?

Maciek (41:29):
Leadership can be learned.
I mean, yes, there are somepeople that are very charismatic
from the start and you know,and they are natural, etc.
But 99% of the leaders theyneed to show the willingness to
improve and to learn and tounderstand.
When I started, I was aterrible employee.

(41:52):
I was really not paying muchattention.
I was just focused on, you know, certain aspects of my job, but
not on other aspects of it, andI really respect my bosses for
not kicking me out of theorganization back then.
But throughout my career I hadgood moments and not such a good

(42:12):
moment.
I remember one particular jobwhen I was not a good boss.
I remember that now reflectingback.
There was a job when I was notpaying enough attention to the
structure of my organization andunderstanding how I need to be
the good boss for that.
But I've learned from this.
I learned to listen more and toput more understanding and

(42:36):
appreciation of people and whatI told you about Chuck.
Chuck told me, hey, this is howyou do it.
And that just opened this kindof a place in my mind when I
said, okay, now I get it and Istarted to practice this.
And recognition is extremelyimportant, bara, and I think one
of the things that people justpeople think that you only have

(43:03):
the recognition is money.
Okay, that you have I don'tknow so many thousands of
dollars and if you give themaway you're out Okay, so there's
only so much recognition thatyou can give.
No Recognition is anever-ending pot.
You just need to give it awayin the right way and it will

(43:25):
just come back to you in theability for you to recognize
even more.
When you recognize people,first of all do it publicly.
The more audience you willgather to make a recognition for
someone, you're gaining twomassive advantages.

(43:45):
First of all, you gain ahappiness of a person that you
are recognizing.
I mean, they feel appreciatedand this is many times worth
more than money and the salaryincrease, frankly saying Not
that you shouldn't do salaryincreases, but it is worth tons.
Okay for people that are beingrecognized publicly.

(44:06):
But what is even more important, frankly saying, is for you as
a leader of the largeorganization, is everybody else
sees what is being recognized bythe boss.
So if you recognize someone fordoing I don't know, preparing an
extremely good analysis andthen you name specifically what

(44:29):
you like and this is anotherkind of a secret here that I'm
letting you know.
You need to be precise andspecific about what the
recognition is all about.
If you just say, like thisperson is really really nice,
you're not really telling whatis the essence of the

(44:51):
recognition.
You need to be very specific.
I like that this person hasspent time to run the analysis
and found certain trends andanomalies in the numbers that
are telling us something superinteresting about our business.
That's a proper recognition forthe business analyst.

(45:11):
And then all the businessanalysts that are on the call
are listening and they aresaying, oh, so Magic wants us to
do trend analysis and find someanomalies and some business
insights.
Aha, and suddenly you know, byrecognizing one person,
everybody else got the message.

(45:32):
And if you recognize at thenext conference call another
analyst and another analyst,very quickly those that haven't
been recognized yet will knowabout it.
That's why I was more in favorof recognizing people than
bashing them, because the factthat you are not recognizing

(45:54):
them, I think it's enough of theproblem for them, because they
understand that they need toramp up their efforts to become
recognized as well.
So there is a never-ending potof recognition points that you
can give away.
It's always great and youshould do it as often as
possible and you should do itpublicly and you should be

(46:17):
precise about what you arespecifically recognizing.
Ideally you connect it back tothe business goals of the
organization that you arerunning, because then it's
obviously the best.
That's why salespeople are soeasy to, in a way, easy to
recognize because you say, likethis guy sold five million
dollars deal to this customer.

(46:38):
It's super precise, it connectswith the goals of the
organization.
You know, when you recognize,try to recognize finance people.
It's way more difficult andrequires way more skills from
the, from the, from the leader.
Uh, pricing I've been in apricing organization.
Pricing is super difficult torecognize why when the pricing

(46:59):
is right, nobody's complainingbut nobody's happy, either
because you pay too much, butwhen the pricing is wrong,
there's a gazillion of peoplethat are upset.
The salespeople are upsetbecause the pricing is too high
or they're not getting thepricing response fast enough, or
I mean one of the mostdifficult jobs in the world.

(47:22):
And try to recognize thepricing analyst about the good
job that he has done in a waythat everybody understands and
findings finds it meaningful.
Sorry, recognition is somethingthat I really believe in, so
you just stroke a nerve, yeah,yeah.

Klara (47:38):
I love you highlighting it and I'm internally thinking
where to take this next, becauseI want to challenge you on one
thing about tying it toleadership.
I agree, I think what you'vegiven is a fantastic example
that I wish every leader waslike that and at the same time,
I know and have worked for somany leaders that don't have

(47:59):
that skill set or the practiceof recognizing or I don't know
if they never have been you knowmentioned this coaching tip
that you have and haven't takenit in, or they just aren't able
to see the differences.
What do you think has helpedyou recognize this skill and
really take it in and practiceit?
Is there something specific orhow do you see that good job

(48:23):
done and take the pause tomention the specific and precise
items that the team or personhave done in an excellent way?

Maciek (48:32):
I have mentored many employees.
I always volunteered my skillsfor younger employees you know
less senior employees andparticipated in a lot of
mentorship programs, neverrefused a mentorship request
from managers, and if anybody islistening to us and wants to
reach out to me, do it throughLinkedIn, and if I can help you,

(48:54):
I will.
There is a little tiny buttonthat you can press and book a
short appointment with me, andit's free of charge.
I'm not going to charge you,but we can have a conversation.
I can help you in whatevercapacity I have.
This is a super common problem,clara, in a lot of organizations
, and I came across this withboth my subordinates, my direct

(49:18):
reports, but also with my bosses.
Funny enough, people in thecorporations are being promoted
for the quality of job that theydo.
So the best salesman isbecoming a sales manager.
Right, the best engineer isbecoming the manager of

(49:42):
engineers.
He's not becoming a manager ofengineers because he's a good
manager.
He's becoming a manager ofengineers because he's a good
engineer, and that was a typicaladvice from me when I was
coaching or mentoring peoplethat would just become a manager
.
The first thing I would tellthem let it go, you're the best

(50:02):
engineer, or let's say, you arethe best salesperson.
You become a sales manager ofyour peers.
Problem number one you now needto become the boss of the
friends that you've been havingparties with.
But this can be overcome.
Now, what is your best toolthat you have?
Where do you excel?

(50:23):
You are the best sales guy.
So the natural thing is you gothrough the panel of your former
peers and you see that youwould do it better.
So the natural thing is youstart correcting them.
And how do we call it in themanagement?
We call it a micromanager.

(50:43):
You become a micromanager,which ends up being you are
overworked and there are so manymanagers I've heard you know
like I have no time.
I have no time, I have no time.
Why?
Because they micromanage.
And what happens to theiremployees?
Well, they have nothing to do.
Because suddenly the boss issticking his nose into

(51:04):
everything that I do and theytell me I will do this better,
this better, better that better,that better, do it like this,
do it like this.
So you take away the freedom ofaction and freedom of execution
.
And I've seen it at any levelof the organization.
Honestly, I've seen my bossesat the vice president, senior
vice president level that weremicromanagement freaks.

(51:26):
They didn't recognize that Ihad my own way of doing things.
I'm interested in the outcome.
We should agree on the outcome,not on the way.
As a manager, you need toempower people to deliver
outcome.
You need to agree on theoutcome and empower them and
help them and support them toachieve the outcome the way they

(51:48):
want.
Their way of achieving theoutcome could surprise you.
You're not going to see at thebeginning of the journey of the
project how the project is goingto evolve.
I mean, think about this You'restarting and your employee has
an idea how to finish and thisidea could be fantastic, but
it's not the same like yours andyou only see the beginning.

(52:11):
So you don't know how thesituation is evolved.
So, unless you let it go andlet the person do their job and
be there for them, if they makea mistake.
If they make a mistake, thenyou use your expertise because
you are the best salesman in theworld.
So if they are about to lose amistake, then you use your
expertise because you are thebest salesman in the world.
So if they are about to lose aclient, then you can pick up the
phone and call and say you know, dear customer, I'm the sales

(52:34):
manager, I want to apologize forthe mistakes made by my
employee and let's have anotherconversation here, right?
Then you're very importantbecause you're saving your
employees' bottom and thenyou're getting the recognition
from your employees like theyare very happy with you.
But let them do the journey andthen help them throughout the

(52:57):
journey and agree on the outcomeand then celebrate the outcome,
recognize the outcome.
Many managers are not leaders.
That's what we always say.
You know there's a bigdifference between the manager
and the leader.
And if you are not able topivot from manager to leader and
from leader to manager, ifyou're not able to change it

(53:19):
because you have to be managersfrom time to time but we can
it's a long conversation, right?
If you want to be a leader forpeople, you need to let it go
and let them do stuff and youwill be amazed.
You will be amazed, as a leader, what your employees will do
for you if you let them do theirjob and you recognize that.

Klara (53:41):
It's going to be one of the best experiences in your
life love it and thank you forsharing that journey and sort of
that transition.
I have to say I've personallyrecognized it myself and there's
differences, even say my veryfirst job.
I've been green as an apple,coming from college to being put
in a position of managingstores, retail stores, stores,

(54:05):
and probably 60, 70 employeesthat I probably knew less than
them.
It was more of like how do Ienable them Because I had
nothing to give them advice.
They probably knew how to dothe job better than me so I had
to learn a lot from them and Ifirst came with this strict
mindset, you know, like fromtennis and athletics, and you've
got this and this and that, andit was.
They didn't work at all.

(54:26):
So after a few months Irealized quite painfully that I
need to pivot and just how can Ifit into the gap to help them
do their job better?
And I always pointed as one ofthe best experiences I've had
very early on in my career and aposition.
So it was a fail fast and learntip for sure.

Maciek (54:50):
That's why in my own organization, when somebody
would come to me, you know likewe had this kind of annual
reviews and somebody would cometo me and I would always ask how
do you want to grow?
What's your next career step?
What do you want to do?
You know many people come toyou and say like I want to be
the people manager, I want tobecome a manager as my next step
in the career and then mynumber one kind of a
recommendation and the supportfor those people would be
typically to put them on aproject that would require them

(55:14):
to manage people without theformer authority.
So learn how to inspire peopleto follow you, rather than
suddenly in the HR system youhave the lines attaching to you
and you feel like you're theboss.
No, no, no.
First learn how to inspirepeople.
For example, good ideas for ourlisteners if they want to take

(55:37):
advantage of this, is anyapprenticeship program or
internship programs where youtake students and then you put
this kind of aspiring manager incharge of those students.
Okay, and he has to teach themand inspire them and make it
work somehow.

(55:58):
The impact on the businesstypically is not that crazy.
The impact on the organizationcould be profound because this
person will very quickly learnthat kind of getting students to
do something for you andteaching them and then you can
do a little bit of your kind ofa micromanagement, but very

(56:20):
quickly you will have to moveout because otherwise you will
not be able to do your own jobright, because you're not
excused from delivering your ownjob.
So I think this kind of a freetest to become a people manager
many times caused people to saylike no, maybe I don't want to
be a people manager, and someothers had a kind of a training

(56:41):
before they assume a peoplemanagement job later on in their
career and I think many peoplewere very thankful for this
experience.

Klara (56:49):
I want to dive maybe on that note a little bit more into
your career and then transitionto SMB.
I know we're running out oftime it seems like the two of us
could talk forever and I wantto respect the time we have
allotted, if we can still fitthis conversation within that.
But you have built a fantasticcareer in technology again, from
Compaq to HP to HPE, mostrecently Global Vice President

(57:13):
and General Manager of the SMBand mid market, and, as you
mentioned, you're transitioningto now lead the B2SMB Institute.
So I want to talk a little bitabout what's going to be ahead.

Maciek (57:24):
I'm not going to lead the B2SMB Institute.
I'm going to be the chiefgrowth and strategy officer.
I don't want to take Dave's jobyet.

Klara (57:30):
Thanks for the clarification.
Looking at that career andtrajectory, you've outlined some
of your leadership skills.
But as we look back andsummarize, and before we dive to
the next chapter, anything elseyou would want to highlight are
some of the key moments orskills that came to you either
naturally or you have learnedpersonally kind of the hard way.

(57:51):
I was like, oh I wish I knewthis 15, 20 years ago when I
started my career.
Or if I internalized it earlyon, building my career would be
much easier.

Maciek (58:02):
Many people, from the very start, have told me that
the best way to make a career isyou need to follow a certain
path.
And you know the famousquestion who do you want to be
in the next five years?
You know, like I'm the salesguy, I want to be the sales
manager, the sales director ofsales, vps, you know, chief

(58:22):
sales officer and and I agreethat some people might find this
path compelling Okay, they wantto specialize in one thing and
build their career around thisparticular capability.
I took a different route and,within Compact, hp and HP, I
took different jobs based on mydesire to have fun, because I

(58:47):
started as a product managerwith a big component of channel
and sales management, because Iwas the only person responsible
for notebooks in Poland, soobviously I had to do everything
Former title product managerand I went to work for the
European headquarters as aproduct manager.
Then I took a pricing job inthe finance organization and

(59:08):
then I took a marketing job.
And I've been to many differentplaces around the company,
always trying to find somethinginteresting within Compact, hp
and HPE and changing my career.
And I want to say to everybodythat has done it that is
currently at the beginning oftheir career.

(59:28):
It is not true that you have tochoose your path today, and I
think there was one sentencethat you wrote in your blog that
if you love something,eventually it becomes your job.
I think if you want to continueloving things, then you might
take yourself out of the comfortzone and move from tennis to

(59:50):
telco, to health you know, appleHealth and then Accenture and I
think that you will find yourcareer.
Maybe you're not going tobecome a CEO Okay, but maybe you
don't need to be a CEO Okay,but maybe you don't need to be a
CEO.
Maybe you just need to have funand love of your job.

(01:00:11):
Every time, every year, every10 years, looking back, you will
say like maybe I didn't takethe top job.
I mean, there'll be some peoplethat will take the top job, but
maybe on the way I've learnedso many different things and
I've met so many interestingpeople and now I'm a more of an
all-rounder than veryspecialized sales guy.

(01:00:33):
This is not a bad career.
This is not a bad decision andcould be more interesting for
you to jump around and takeopportunities.
Move to a different country, forsure, okay, uh, I think staying
in a different country versus,uh, traveling to different
countries.

(01:00:53):
A completely different story.
So many people tell me hi, I'vebeen to us.
I've been to us 15 000 timesand and I've been to the US
15,000 times.
For the first time I went tothe US for vacation as opposed
to for a business trip.
Completely different feeling,completely different story.

(01:01:15):
And now I've been to the US15,000 and 50 times, many times
just for vacation with my family, and I still know it's not the
same as living in this countryand really experiencing the way
people kind of work and live andthe challenges that they are

(01:01:38):
facing in their daily life.
So if you can move to anothercountry, learn more than one
language for sure.
You and I have this kind of aprivilege because we have our
natural language, you know, andthen we learn english and you
probably speak maybe one or twomore languages as well.
Uh, so learning anotherlanguage opens a completely new

(01:02:02):
space in your mind again.
Because I mean, just from thepure, like lame explanation,
this is a phone, right?
Okay, it has a name phone.
It has a different name inpolish, it has a different name
in german and if you take evenmore complex things, suddenly
the same thing at least you areable to name in three different

(01:02:25):
languages.
I mean how much expansion ofyour mindset it is.
And then you know like there areconnections between the words
and between the different thingsin a language that are
different in different languages.
I don't know how to say that,but in many languages there is
one word that has like threemeanings, but if you take it to

(01:02:45):
another language it doesn't havethe same three meanings.
It will have maybe three othermeanings.
In Polish, for example, theword może means the sea, but
also the maybe right.
Okay, in English it's the seaand the maybe.
In Poland it's może and możeright.
It just makes a completelydifferent connections in your

(01:03:07):
mind.
And then when you startcomparing different languages
between each other, it's evenmore funny.
My wife is laughing and all theGerman friends are laughing
when I tell them the story ofWieheister.
Wieheister in German means itmeans who is this?
It's a sentence question who isthis right?

(01:03:29):
And in Polish wie heister, it'sthis thingy, something that you
don't know how to call it.
So the Polish people took aGerman sentence and turned it
into a word.
Wie heister means like thisthing that I cannot name.
Wie heister is like who is thisright?
So when you start making theseconnections, it just again opens

(01:03:51):
another kind of a path in yourbrain and expands your
capability to be more creativeand more capable, I guess.

Klara (01:04:01):
And I love that.
And maybe I'll move us into thenot-so so positive connection
with some of the generative AIand artificial intelligence and
the translation, because this isexactly what I've been
pondering myself.
With all the translators beingmuch simpler, much easier, and
now you have even applicationsthat you can upload audio,

(01:04:24):
translate it for you or livetranslation in time, I've been
always pondering are we going tobecome even more lazy as humans
?
Because I think our defaultmechanism, as not just humans,
but animal kingdom, is to bemore lazy when there is
opportunity to do so.
I sit on my own dog, I study myown dog.

(01:04:45):
I think it's the best.
So when something is comfortable, it's easy.
We sort of default to thateasiness.
I think it takes much moreeffort as humans to continue to
push ourselves to do somethingchallenging because it's just
hard to do.
And so I'm even thinking aboutthis artificial intelligence,

(01:05:05):
and is it gonna make us morelazy?
And what is your view of theartificial intelligence,
generative AI and even towardsthe SMB space, as you're
transitioning into this B2SMBand focusing on the growth for
those SMBs specifically?

Maciek (01:05:24):
If you're asking me this question, you will have to
schedule another podcast.
You realize that Sounds good.
You're just starting anotherlong.
So, first of all, are we goingto become more lazy?
Because there's artificialintelligence?
A good friend of mine, jayMcBain, who is an analyst at
Canalys chief analyst at Canalys.

(01:05:45):
He wrote a really great blogpost, which I completely agree
with, on this topic and thepremise of the post.
You can look it up on LinkedInif you want to.
There is a peanut butter andthere is other food and the
peanut butter is something thatI like to have at home, but I
don't really love it.

(01:06:06):
It's just there always.
So if I could outsource theordering of a peanut butter
every time it just goes there'svery little somebody could
reorder it for me.
I don't want to make anydecisions about the brand.
I know more or less what brandthey like.
I would just put it on theconstant reorder, but only when

(01:06:26):
it just goes to a level when ithas to be reordered, so not
every five months because itmight not be precise.
So if I could outsource that tosomeone, I would have more time
for things that I really likeordering food that I really like
, doing things that I reallylike and I think this is the
essence of the artificialintelligence there are things

(01:06:48):
that are annoying and not reallygreat for people.
So think about, you know,riding a bike.
I love riding a bike aroundWarsaw or in the woods or
somewhere, okay, but if somebodywould ask me to ride a bike
from Warsaw to Barcelona or fromMiami to New York, I am not

(01:07:11):
sure that I'm really up for it.
So I'm really grateful thatsomebody has sometime in the
past invented something calledplane or train where I can jump
on the plane or train and flyover to the other side.
Does it make me more lazy ornot riding a bike?
No, I love riding a bike orwalking around or going for a

(01:07:34):
hike, but there are tools that Iuse where they are most useful
for me, and I think exactly thesame story is with artificial
intelligence and I think exactlythe same story is with
artificial intelligence.
Artificial intelligence todaytakes care of a lot of stuff

(01:07:56):
that I either couldn't dobecause I was not skilled enough
, or I didn't like to do becauseit just took too much time of
me for the very little outcomefrom my business perspective.
So it's the efficiency game andit's the productivity game that
I'm playing here.
I use artificial intelligenceto do things so I can have more

(01:08:17):
time for the things that Ireally believe I can make an
impact on.
And I want to say one more thing, which is super important,
about the artificialintelligence, which I might be I
might be wrong about long term,but short term I'm 100%.
This is true, and when I hadthe lecture for the students at

(01:08:38):
the University of Washington acouple of weeks ago, I told them
exactly this you could useartificial intelligence to write
your essays.
You could, okay, but beware ifsomebody will start poking you
about the essence of your essayand you have no clue what's

(01:08:59):
inside, or you don't even knowwhat this essay is really all
about.
And if you don't learn aboutthe topic that you're going to
be asking the artificialintelligence to write about, you
could end up having an essaythat does not make any sense and

(01:09:20):
you will not be able to judgeit.
So, whether we're going to useartificial intelligence or not
to write our essays or emails orwhatever, we better have the
knowledge and understanding andcomprehension of the topic to be
able to judge the outcome.
I use artificial intelligence towrite a lot of things.
So then I read through that andI judge it and I use my

(01:09:44):
knowledge and understanding andI know what I want.
It's just that me writing itversus the artificial
intelligence writing it.
It's much more efficient forthe, for the artificial
intelligence.
So I think everybody should beusing artificial intelligence, I
think everybody should beunderstanding how it works and I

(01:10:05):
think everybody should betaking the responsibility for
the outcome of what theartificial intelligence delivers
and not let it just run yourlife, especially when we are
talking about the things thatare more important for you, the
things that you care about.
If you want to go ride a bikearound the city, do it yourself.

(01:10:26):
Don't go by car, because it's acompletely different experience
, even though car is many timesmore efficient than bike.

Klara (01:10:32):
It seems like your view is that this would actually
allow us to unlock morepotential, and people will
continue to gravitate to thethings they're passionate about.

Maciek (01:10:42):
Maybe there will be people that will just use
artificial intelligence to belazy all the time.
I'm sorry, clara, but thatmeans that they might not
experience the beauty of puttingsome blood and sweat into
something, and maybe that's thechoice in life.

(01:11:04):
I respect that.
It's not my choice in life.
I respect that.
It's not my choice in life.
My choice in life is to putblood and sweat into something,
every time something different.
Now you've opened anotherPandora box, which is what is
the advantage of SMBs from theartificial intelligence.
I'm really sorry, but I readgreat research recently from

(01:11:26):
your competitor so I'm not goingto name the name about the
productivity gaps between thesmall and medium business and
the large corporations.
So it's one of the biggestproblems, equal to between 5%
and 10% of GDP.
If we would bring all the SMBsto the productivity levels of

(01:11:52):
the large corporations, our GDPwould jump between 5% to 10%.
The research says and thatmeans this is a real dollar.
I mean we are not talking aboutsome fuzzy stuff.
This is thousands of dollarsper business a month.
You can actually measure it ifyour productivity would grow.
So if the productivity is oneof the biggest challenges for

(01:12:13):
SMBs and AI is the productivitylever.
How can you miss that?
I mean, how can you not deployartificial intelligence?
So you have to.
I mean, as a small and mediumbusiness, you will have to
deploy artificial intelligence.
So you have to.
I mean, as a small and mediumbusiness, you will have to
deploy artificial intelligence.
Just like, during COVID, smbshad to deploy remote working

(01:12:35):
solution, e-commerce solutionsyou know what name you.
So this productivity, you know,this deployment of AI, I believe
, will go in three or fourphases for the small and medium
businesses.
The first, number one will bevery it's already happening okay

(01:12:56):
is Microsoft, google, meta haveembedded AI into their tools
that everybody is using You'reusing.
I don't know if you're usingM365 or Google Workspace, I
don't know Maybe Zoom Workspace,one of those you will see that

(01:13:16):
you have a possibility topurchase a license of Gemini or
Copilot or whatever other AI.
Apple will be introducing openAI into their ecosystem.
So, very quickly, you will findyourself that you actually have
an access to AI and you canstart using it.
And if you've tried itsummarizing the meetings,

(01:13:38):
creating presentations, draftingemails I mean very natural
thing, and I think many peoplealready use that.
Maybe even they don't say that,but they use it a lot.
They don't want to admit thatthey didn't create the
presentation by themselves.
But go to a copilot and saycreate the presentation of
artificial intelligence and youwill be amazed what's going to

(01:13:59):
happen.
Just do that problem.
So there's going to be the kindof a number one stage will be
they will be using tools, othertools, remote work or financial
tools, like accounting,accounting company will embed

(01:14:23):
artificial chatbot into this.
I mean analytics, customersupport, marketing,
communication, whatever they areusing which is non-core
business for them.
They will see their suppliersembedding artificial
intelligence and if they are notembedding artificial
intelligence into those non-corefunctions, then I would go and

(01:14:45):
change the supplier, franklysaying, because, again,
productivity is the name of thegame today.
The phase number two is theywill see that this artificial
intelligence is gaining space.
They will start deploying itinto different places in their
organization, which means thatthey will have more and more
technology.
They will be more and morereliant on the technology and

(01:15:08):
what it means is remember, twoweeks ago, what happened with
CrowdStrike.
Yes, they will realize thatthere is a problem because they
are so reliant on technology andthe cyber criminals are not,
you know, kind of awaiting inthe darkness until you know,
there will be more and moreattacks and they will see those

(01:15:28):
attacks and the phishingattempts and the ransomware
attempts and they will startpaying more and more attention
to the cybersecurity.
So there will be AIcybersecurity employed.
They will be investing incybersecurity and, frankly,
saying banks will force thembecause banks will tell them you
know, I'm not going to give youany money if you're not going
to be cyber, you know kind of asafe, cyber secure.

(01:15:51):
That's wave number two.
Wave number three is, as theyhave more and more technology
and more and more data, they'llstart learning how to use this
data and monetize it through AI.
And the last phase and I hopethey will get there the fastest,
the quickest is going to beusing AI to redesign and

(01:16:16):
redefine their core business.
So if you're a restaurant, youknow it's a different story when
you use AI to write emailsabout your menu.
It's a different thing when youuse your ERP system, ai to
maybe optimize your ingredientsordering.
It's a completely differentstory when you use AI to

(01:16:40):
redefine the recipes that youare serving to the customers to
find new tastes, the recipesthat you are serving to the
customers to find new tastes.
Yeah, you've been having arestaurant, your father and your
grandfather and you've beenhaving this recipe for
generations, and now you'regoing to come and completely
redefine your core business byinventing new recipes using

(01:17:02):
artificial intelligence.
It's a crazy example, but youcan use anything else.
So the moment SMBs will startusing AI to redefine their core
business, the cycle is complete.
Then they are really AI-drivencompanies.

Klara (01:17:18):
Do you think the technology is at the maturity to
where we can use the AI andgenerative AI for the core
business reinvention?
Because, even kind of lookingat it, it's a great tool for, as
you mentioned, I've used it formany of those similar examples
right Summarizing notes,brainstorming, helping to write
cleaner and more succinct emailskind of have a, I guess,

(01:17:43):
administrative assistance or ifpeople call it nowadays.
But then the quality of it?
I think a lot of new thingswill be coming out and I'm
really curious, obviously aboutthe Apple intelligence when that
gets rolled out and with thenext software release.
But how far do you think we arefrom that for the models to
actually be accurate enough andtrusting enough and we have

(01:18:04):
enough confidence to be able toreinvent that SMB core business?

Maciek (01:18:09):
We are still far from it .
Not every business can bereinvented through AI yet I
think Because today, what I findwhen talking to people and
seeing what is possible, notpossible, language it's a large
language model, so anythingconnected with language is great
.
When you start going into thenumbers hallucinations, a small

(01:18:33):
hallucination can completelychange the number game.
So you know kind of a relianceon the analytics.
You need to be a little bitmore careful.

Klara (01:18:43):
I know we're right on time and thank you so much for
the conversation.
It seems like we can for suretalk for hours and schedule next
one, maybe last two quickquestions.
There's a lot of chaos going onin the world nowadays.
I mean, you're in Poland, feelit, perhaps more than some other
countries, being right next toUkraine.
A lot of elections andinstability.

(01:19:03):
Obviously, the Venezuela thingjust came up.
There's this presidentialcampaign in the US that creates
its own chaos.
Given all of that's happening,what would you want to inspire
people to be doing more of orless of?

Maciek (01:19:17):
I think you know, whatever choices we make, stay
true to your core beliefs anddon't be manipulated.
You know, like, take a stepback.
We are not too far from eachother.
We can be Republicans,democrats, whatever, but as
people we are really closetogether.
And you know, when the war inUkraine started, in Poland we

(01:19:39):
have our own kind of left-wing,right-wing, you know, kind of
all those kind of politicaldiscussions.
The moment the war started andthe Ukrainian refugees started
to pour into Poland, there wasno longer a discussion about
your political wing or whatever.
Everybody just started to help.
And that made me extremelyproud of what Poland stands for

(01:20:03):
that when there is a realproblem to solve, we don't look
at the differences.
We look at the solution that weneed to provide to people and
support them.
So look at the possibilitiesfrom the unity point of view,
not from the divisions whichsome people are trying to

(01:20:24):
capitalize on.

Klara (01:20:25):
I love that, and where can people find you?
I'll add your LinkedIn profileto the notes, with your
permission, but what's the bestway to reach out to anyone and
who wants to connect with youabout the conversation?

Maciek (01:20:37):
LinkedIn is the best.
Really, it's the easiest andthe best and I hope most of your
listeners are on LinkedIn.
That's the easiest path to dothat.
I don't use some of the easiestpath to do that.
I don't use some of the othersocial media that much.
Linkedin is my placeprofessional network.
That's what I like to offer myprofessional support and
connection.

Klara (01:20:57):
Excellent.
Same here.
Actually, it's my most usefulreally social media, so I prefer
that over other.
Thank you so much.
I know we're running over time.
I so appreciate over other.
Thank you so much.
I know we ran over time.
I so appreciate thisconversation and, if you're up
for it, happy to schedule roundtwo whenever the time works.

Maciek (01:21:12):
Absolutely, absolutely Grand Slam 2.0.
Magic, grand Slam 2.0.
Let's do it.
Yes, 100% Thank you so much Ifyou enjoyed this episode.

Klara (01:21:21):
I want to ask you to please do two things that would
help me greatly.
One, please consider leaving areview on Apple Podcasts,
spotify or any other podcastingplatform that you use to listen
to this episode.
Two, please share this podcastwith a friend who you believe
might enjoy it as well.
It is a great way to remindsomeone you care about them by

(01:21:42):
sharing a conversation theymight be interested in.
Thank you for listening.

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Klara Jagosova

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