89. Jurgen Arts︱From Court to CFO: Adaptability, AI & the Future of Telco Networks

Episode Transcript
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Jurgen Arts (00:00):
AI is definitely a big thing happening, right?
Not only in telecom, I think inthe world.
I'm trying to spend quite a bitof time understanding AI,
playing around with it, tryingto make use of AI as much as I
can in whatever is on my agenda.
And then maybe a bit totelecom, as you know, and in
Ericsson we're making a big nowinto enterprise, but also into

(00:20):
this network platform where uhall the great functionality of
5G can actually be consumed inthe form of APIs.
That's why we acquired Volch aswell, where we created Taduna.
And I think that's superimportant, not only for us in
Ericsson, but for the telecomindustry as a whole.
Something has been standing outin telecom, it's the flat

(00:41):
revenue line, right?
All the companies, us asproviders like Ericsson and uh
ears, but also the operatorslike AT&T and others in all
these years, in the last two orthree decades, we haven't seen
our revenues grow in spite ofall this great technology with
4G, 5G in the future 6G that weare bringing to the market,
where revenues have beenfledged, and we've seen the

(01:04):
value being generated in stockprice and earnings by um
over-the-top players, retailers.
So that is the game that we, atleast in our side, together
with our operator customers,would like to change, right?
And getting away from this thekind of monthly billing in the
consumer space, but also anenterprise is still a an

(01:26):
industry that's based on amonthly bill, get much more pay
per use.
So changing that way thattelecom is consumed and paid
for.
That's a big bad now fromEricsson, but it goes way beyond
Ericsson, right?
It goes for the industry.

Klara Jagosova (01:43):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to
the Grand Slam Journey podcast,where we explore the
intersection of sports,business, technology, and
leadership.
My guest today is Jurgen Arts,Vice President and CFO for
Market Area Europe and LatinAmerica at Ericsson.
Over nearly three decades withEricsson, Jürgen has held senior

(02:06):
global finance leadershiproles, including VP integration
for the Varnage and Cradle Pointacquisitions, and CFO for North
America and Latin America.
We talk about leading throughchange, building global teams,
and how sports shaped resilienceand adaptability in business.
Originally from theNetherlands, Jürgen's journey

(02:30):
from the tennis court to thecorporate boardroom is truly
inspiring.
And he's even passed thatpassion for tennis onto his two
sons.
This podcast is fullyself-produced.
So if you enjoyed thisconversation, please subscribe,
leave a review, or share withsomeone you believe may enjoy it
as well.
This episode is also availablein video version on the Grand

(02:53):
Slam Journey YouTube channel.
This is your host,Klara Jagosova.
Thank you for tuning in andenjoy the listen.
Hello, you're again.
Welcome to the Grand SlamJourney Podcast.
So great to have you.

Hey Clara, well, great honor to be here on your
uh Grand Slam Journey.
Thanks for having me.

Of course, you are actually the perfect guest
for my podcast when I have beencreating this mission, it seems
now a few years back, maybe fouror five years ago.
It was with few goals.
One, obviously, talk toimpressive athletes, and you
have been one, you play tennis,that have since then created an
amazing journey for you,corporate America, being the VP

(03:36):
and CFO in many differentmarkets, currently the market
area, Europe, Middle East, andAfrica.
So I'm sure there's a lot ofdynamic, even just in that role.
I'm curious to dive into that.
And number two, I want to startstraight up with I always
wanted to shine a light onpeople who had positive
influence on me personally andmy current trajectory.

(03:58):
And uh I do still remember whenI had an interview with you for
one of the leadership advisoryroles that I've been privileged
to land with a talented group offour other individuals that
became my close friends actuallyever since.

Yeah.

I'm quite confident you said yes to me.
So thank you for that supportand actually believing me and
helping me be part of the team.
And so with that, I'm justgonna pause.
And I know you have had againexcellent career through many
different ups and downs as thetelecom industry has gone
through overall.

(04:35):
But um, I want to give you anopportunity to introduce
yourself.
Anything else you would likelisteners to know about you and
your background before we diveinto all of that.

Whoa, uh, that was a pretty broad introduction
already, but let me get there.
But I still I still, since youstarted with your uh your
journey and how you started thisuh Grand Slam uh podcast, I uh
I still remember that moment,and I remember myself thinking
like, whoa, Clara, that's an uhcourageous move.
And uh I can only congratulateyou.

(05:06):
I mean, I've been digging alittle bit into the past
versions.
I've followed you uh along thewhat is it, four or five years
that you've been doing this.
I think you have made atremendous uh success out of
that.
I like courageousness, right?
Maybe maybe we come to that aswell.
I always encourage people to becourageous and maybe do some
things that you're not socomfortable with, but at the

(05:27):
end, uh take you very far.
So uh super happy to be hereand uh congratulations to you as
well for your little bityounger career, but also great
things on that uh timelinealready, Glad.

Thank you.

But let me get to the introduction.
You said a lot already.
I'm I'm Jürgen, I'm I'm Dutch,born uh 56 years ago in the
Netherlands, then uh moved to uhto Spain for for work where I
met my wife.
So uh my wife Anna from Madrid,a beautiful Spanish wife, got
married in Madrid, where twosons were both born in Madrid.
But then we started to uh movearound quite a bit.

(06:01):
We left Madrid for Chile, fiveyears in Chile for work, and
then after five years in Chile,nine years in the US, and now
since two years back in Madrid.
And um have been uh most of mycareer at Ericsson, as you know,
29 years right now, mostly infinance roles, so regional CFO
roles.
I've been lucky, I think, to uhbe at a great company, meet

(06:24):
great people, and have had theopportunity to know three
different continents, fourdifferent countries to live in.
So very uh blessed, I feel, bythe experience I've had.
I think let's leave it there asan introduction and then we can
deep dive in any of those uhexperiences or uh cultures or
countries.

Love that.
And definitely want to diveinto the intercultural and kind
of world perspective that youbring in, and not just being uh
from Netherlands, but also asyou moved around and obviously
the nature of Ericsson's globalbusiness as well.
And before we dive there, justcurious what was your upbringing
like?
I am always curious to hearabout my guests, what led them

(07:06):
to some of the initial passionsin their upbringing.
I know it started with sportsfor you, tennis.
And then anything else that yousee influenced you towards the
business, technology, perhapsCFO?
Was there an influence early onin your life that you see
pulled you towards those kind ofroles later on?

Yeah, maybe.
Uh my upbring was uh well I wasborn in in Nijmegen, a town in
the east of the Netherlands.
The Netherlands is a very smallcountry, so east-west, it's
anyway uh close by.
But um small town, uh smallfamily.
I'm I'm only child, so I don'thave siblings, so it's just my
parents and and myself, and myparents ran an uh a family

(07:49):
business uh next door a house,actually.
So I think we've had greatyears business-wise, uh less
great years.
I think already very young Ilearned to be to be very rich in
the good years, but also to bevery modest and poor in the
worst years, and that alwaysstick with me, right?
You need to know to adapt tothe circumstances, and uh life
life goes with that as well.

(08:10):
Got into uh sports tennis.
My parents were tennis playersin the Netherlands.
You have this club tennis, somy parents very much in the
weekends went uh to play tenniswith friends, and then I started
on this uh tennis walls thatyou had on the clubs, just you
playing, then my parentssupported me to classes, got
into tennis, tried some othersports as well.

(08:33):
I was probably lucky in thateastern part of the Netherlands.
We had some hills.
My parents also went skiingevery now and then.
I was for Dutch meanings, I wasactually better in skiing than
tennis, I think, at those years.
So we uh made it to the theDutch national team of my age
skiing, and then uh just to giveyou an idea, it's it's nothing

(08:54):
compared to the biggercountries, right?
Like Germany or Switzerland orAustria.
We had our uh Dutchchampionships, we went once a
year, we went to Austria at ournational championships after a
local team had finished theirlocal competition, and then
probably all winners ended some10-20 seconds slower than the

(09:14):
winner of the local teams.
But then the Netherlands theythey wanted to catch up with
that huge gap they had of leveland uh started in um a school in
Austria at that time.
So I was invited to move there,but the price tag was just
super, super high.
So my uh my parents reminded methat I I love tennis as well.
So it was tennis from thatmoment onwards that uh got my

(09:36):
passion and probably a lot ofdedication.
And yeah, I've played tennisfor uh many, many years when I
was young.
First club tennis, I got into atennis academy as well in the
Netherlands, and then you have anice group of friends and peers
you train with.
So you go to those ages of Idon't know what it was, maybe
14, 15, where you really take ita bit more serious and you

(09:59):
notice that the more you putinto it, the better your
results.
So but since my parents werekind of running their business,
it was not like today, right?
Where I always remind my sonsabout how lucky and luxurious it
is these days with your parentsuh driving or flying you to uh
classes and tournaments and uhsleeping in hotels.
I had to do it all by myself.

(10:19):
So I had my bike, which uh gotme to the training sites, and
even if it rained, I just uh puton rain clothes and got to my
training and had to find my waysto get to my tournaments and
then get back as well, sleepingover at families uh in the towns
where the tournaments happened.
I think that's a good uhlearning for the younger players
these days.
A lot of things are kind ofvery nicely organized for them.

(10:43):
But sometimes I look back on uhin our generation, how we had
to uh get to or tennis, right?
In all the different ways.
And it also creates a bit ofcharacter, I think.
So with a big smile, I remindsometimes my sons about uh the
good old days where it all was alittle bit less uh resourceful

(11:03):
than than today.
So that was uh how I got intotennis.
Then I uh yeah, I started tostudy.
My my parents always remindedme I could play tennis uh as
much as I wanted, but afterschool was kind of finished,
right?
I had to do my homework first.
My grades at school had to begood enough, and then I was
allowed to play tennis andprobably wasn't good enough

(11:24):
anyway to become professional.
So I uh yeah, when I startedstudying I tried one year really
hard to get up with thenational ranking as much as I
could, but just draw theconclusion that my career had to
be in uh in business and not somuch in tennis anymore.
I've been a recreational playersince then, probably until the
age that you just have to trainvery hard to keep your level,

(11:47):
right?
It was still remember when Iwas 35, 37.
Then you uh you reach thatpoint where you you you don't
get better, right?
You just have to train veryhard to maintain.
So then I got a bit frustratedwith myself and probably changed
a lot of tennis for uh otherthings in Spain.
Pedal is a great sport as well.
It's easier than tennis.

(12:08):
So a lot of tennis started toplay golf as well, but still
play every now and then tennis,more golf and pedal these days.
I started running as well, justto stay in shape and go to the
gym.
But tennis has always been uhthere for me, and today still
for kids who are still uhfanatic tennis players.
And uh my wife and I we movedback to Madrid as well, two

(12:30):
years ago.
The kids are still studying inthe US, so we have this uh
beautiful Atlantic Ocean inbetween right now, but we cross
it every now and then, so westill try to meet as a family as
as much as we can.

Yeah, love that, and so many awesome things to
dive into.
I love the combination of theskiing passion and fun fact, I
actually have the same.
Was probably a better skier aswell before I started to play
tennis and my parents managed methat direction.
Also, skiing is very expensive.
I don't know if people realizebecause most of the time you
have to travel, especially ifyou're from countries like ours

(13:05):
that don't have high mountains,you have to pretty much live
abroad most of the year orespecially in the winter.
But I also want to touch on theadaptability and it seems like
flexibility that tennisupbringing gave you as uh you
shared nowadays.
Nobody would do that.
Well, America is very largetoo, so you won't get on a bike

(13:27):
very far.
Yeah and so that's maybe theadvantage of living in
Netherlands, but just that will,I guess, or naturally you had
that drive was like, oh, I'mjust gonna bike here and play
tournaments and figure out whereto stay and who's to stay with,
you know, I'll just solve it.
How do you see that influencedyou for later on?

(13:49):
Just that mindset?
Yeah, it seems like it wouldallow you to I'll figure out
things one way or another.

Yeah, I think it has influenced me uh quite quite
a bit.
You don't realize it probablyat the moment, but I mean you
you have to come over a lot ofthings, right?
I I always say, and believe itor not, but I'm pretty introvert
from nature, especially inthose days when you're 15, 16,
and you have to kind of knock ondoors of a tournament uh desk

(14:17):
and see if there's any place tostay, right?
You have to do it.
There was no alternative.
I mean, it was either you do itthat way or there was no
tournament for me.
So but I think it it helped mequite a bit to develop, right?
And expose yourself to tosituations that are not always
comfortable.
But I mean, you you learn andyou know how to how to get

(14:37):
through it and how to besuccessful.
So as I said, you don't realizeit those days, but uh I I think
it goes very far later on inlife, in professional careers as
well, right?
I don't know about your ownexperience, Clara.
You've gone through the thevery same.
So is that the same for you orwas it very different for you?

100% it's been the same.
And my theory is I'm stilltesting it through this podcast,
but I do think that mostintroverts cling to individual
sports, because we're totallyfine on being by ourselves,
right?
In individual sports, you spenda lot of time alone.
So if you're an extrovert, Ithink it's really hard to be an
individual sports player.

(15:16):
So I was totally introverted.
I was totally fine just goingbetween the tennis courts and my
flat, actually, I had back inthe day.
And my mom always thought, ohmy god, this girl, she's not
even gonna be usable in the realworld.
Because I was totally contentjust being alone.
And then when you starttraveling the same, especially

(15:37):
when I started flying to the USfor tennis tournaments, because
in check it wasn't very commonwhere we would be able to stay
with friends or family.
But I do know it was somethingthat US opened eyes to me, and
it's probably was one of thereasons why I ended up coming
here because I saw the warmthand how nice people were

(15:59):
welcoming me into their homes,just opening their door to me
and they've never met me andwere willing to drive me
actually from their house to thetennis court where the
tournament was.
And I literally feel likethat's a lot of what carried on
now and helped me becomeextroverted.
Because then I realized, well,if I open up and I ask the right

(16:20):
questions, you actually makesome amazing friends.
So it pulled me from the strictintroverted person to the
extroversion, although therecomes quite a bit of tiredness
with it.
Depends how you do it at atournament.
If you're really focusing on aspecific game and you want to
play well, you have to balancehow much you use that practice

(16:43):
to not drain yourself out, Iguess so to say.
But I to this day say it wasthe best lesson for being able
to eventually talk to almostanyone.

Absolutely.

And then pedaling golf, that sounds
fantastic.
I wish we had more pedal here.
We have the pick-able in theUS, but one of my former college
friends and players, he was onthe men's team.
Actually, he's the number one,I think, pedal coach and
influencer.
So I should connect the two ofyou at some point.
He's in Spain often.
It's a fun sport.

(17:16):
I do have one questionpersonal, because I struggle
with this.
Transitioning from the tennisand admitting to yourself that
it's time for a next sport andhobby.
I feel I'm sort of therebecause every time I go back on
the tennis court, I have aninjury that sets me back like a
half a year or a year.
My body, there are specificbody parts that are just abused

(17:39):
from the repetition.
And I do know that some of theother sports will be better at
it, but my mind is still stuckon, oh no, you're a tennis
player, hold on.
I think that can be really hardfor people to navigate.
How have you navigated that?

I think it's as you say.
I mean, the sport can becomevery frustrating.
That happens with tennis.
The same happens with me withskiing as well, right?
If if you you used to docertain things or or ski or play
tennis at a certain level, thatthat's still in your mind, but
you reach a point where the mindstill wants to do things, but

(18:14):
the body cannot, right?
Or you get injured.
I've been at those points aswell, and I just had it, right?
Probably the last years I stillplayed tournaments.
It was just painful, right?
Not not only the the longmatches in the weekend, but I
was three, four days during theweek after.
I I barely couldn't walk,right?
So it was just my body is justnot made for this anymore.

(18:37):
That's in fact what got me tofocus on other things, right?
And it depends a lot.
I still have a group offriends, and many of them still
play everyday tennis, but I'm Iwas getting more interested in
other things where I still couldcould kind of learn and
improve.
And I've always kind of beenlooking for things to to learn,
to get better on.

(18:58):
And so it wasn't that hard forme to kind of uh scale down what
I had done for so many years,so many hours, and and just
focus on something else, right?
I I still enjoy the sport.
I think that love for fortennis will will always be
there.
But uh I rather spend my timeon other activities now, not to

(19:18):
get myself into just painfulinjuries or moment of recovery
or whatever.

Yeah.
Is that how you keep yourselfgrounded?
What's your outlet keeping thepressure away from now what you
have?
Um seems like would be for surea stressful job with a lot of
things going on.
Is pedal golf your outlet thatkeeps the business thinking a
little bit away and gives you aspace to step away for something

(19:43):
more fun?

Yeah, sports definitely is.
I uh more running than tennisor pedal.
You always have to getorganized to play, and and
running is for me running or thegym, right?
I always want to travel, andyou can find me in the gym of
the hotel.
I like to get up early and gofor a run in the morning just to
be fresh and uh keep you inshape.
So sports has always beenthere, and then after the work

(20:08):
and in the weekends, I also likecooking, and believe it or not,
that's for me probably the bestway to just set aside all the
stress and topics from work andjust go either with my wife or
myself, go to do some greatshopping and spend the night or
spend the weekend in in thekitchen at home.
I really enjoy that part aswell to get rid of stress and

(20:30):
anything that uh that's relatedto work.

That's awesome.
What's your favorite thing tocook?

I have a lot of favorite things.
People that know me would saypaelias.
I've been making some paelliasat work and for friends, even if
I'm uh I'm Dutch, I'm not fromSpain, but we have a big
community of Spanish friends,and we uh we always are inviting
each other to houses and make apaella for friends.

(20:56):
I enjoy that part.
I always like to pick up, likeI picked up paella in Spain, I
probably picked up the barbecuein in Texas, also like to uh
make a brisket on the slowcooking brisket here on the
smoker at home, and so notreally one favorite dish, but uh
always been interested forlocal uh cuisines and uh trying
to uh master some of the recipesmyself as well.

(21:18):
Big fan of the Peruvian uhkitchen.
I don't know if you have Latinlisteners here, but uh
especially the years in LatinAmerica.
We lived in Chile, but close toPeru.
And uh I've always said sincethose years that the Peruvian
kitchen, right?
The causas and the tiraditosand the ceviches, that's
probably one of the kitchensthat are still to see their

(21:40):
biggest days in the world.
It's uh when we left for LatinAmerica, I think there was one
or two Peruan restaurants herein Madrid nowadays.
It's 50, 60, or even 100.
Definitely uh the world'skitchen that's still to be
explored for many, many peoplearound the world.

Yeah, I love Peru.
Yeah.
In fact, I may have talkedabout it on one other podcast,
but I think Lima is consideredthe culinary capital of the
world.
One of our earlier hikes wehave done was actually in Peru.
Yeah.
And the food was so delicious.
I totally undervalued how goodthe food is because they just
cook it when you're camping,right?

(22:18):
Just on the steel plate, and ittastes so good.
And it really spoiled me forthe next adventures or hiking
adventures.
Because any other trip I didafter, I was like, the food is
so bad.
I always just end up eating myprotein bars.
That's safer.
But yeah, the food in Peru isdelicious.
And I'm gonna invite myself,Jurgen, next time you're

(22:39):
cooking, you gotta let me know.
And I'm inviting myself to oneof your um dinners.
I'll bring the wine orwhatever.

Whenever you're in Madrid or close to Madrid, let
me know.
And then we uh we get it on theagendas.
Absolutely.

Love that.
So back to your career.
It seems like you mentioned yourealized at some point that
tennis wasn't the thing, and soyou started focusing on school
and being steered towardsbusiness.
I'm guessing your family'sinfluence growing up around
business.
Actually, what kind of businessdid they have, your parents?

They had a car furniture kind of business,
which was in in those days agood business to run because
cars were not the complexelectronic computer-driven
vehicles that we have today.
My dad was basically justrefurbishing uh cars, boats,
other kinds of things, uhcustomer circle kind of

(23:35):
build-ups.
So it was a good business to bein.
I never was kind of tainted totake that over.
My dad and my mom had anaccountant that came every week
just to do the books for thethat part uh probably interested
me more.
I was uh at school alreadypretty much interested in
violence, and bookkeeping waspart of it.
I looked at the business morefrom the finance side already

(23:57):
when my uh when I was living athome with my parents, and that
that also became at school lateron my focus, right?
I uh started to study uhinformation management and uh
economics as well.
So that became uh where Ifocused and and specialized
later on in my career.

Yeah, that's a beautiful journey, actually.
And so did you start inEricsson early on in your
career?

In the Netherlands, when we finished studies, we
still had to do militaryservice.
That's what I had to do firstafter uh finishing my university
uh grade.
And then I started actually uhthe first three years in a
chemical company, DSM, uh thatthey were uh implementing SAP.
SAP was not as known andwidespread as it's today, but

(24:42):
they had uh a managementdevelopment program which was
attractive and for me the reasonto join them and I was putting
kind of on an SAP implementationtrack in '94 when the the
current SAP system wasn't evenuh GA yet.
It wasn't ready, it was onlyavailable in German.
We lived very close to Germany.
The company was on the borderof Germany as well.

(25:04):
So uh I spent a lot of time onkind of the factory where the
system was to be implemented,but also went a lot to Germany,
to the head office of SAP, closeto Frankfurt.
Very lucky those days as well,I think, because SAP later on
became a big boom.
And when three years laterEricsson decided to implement

(25:25):
SAP as well, I got a call froman old colleague that was a
consultant at my former companyand I joined Ericsson, and he
had convinced uh Ericssonmanagement in those days that
they had to uh give me a call,ask me to join, and that's how I
joined Ericsson uh three yearsinto my career.

And uh what a ride it has been.
So I'm checking your LinkedIn alittle bit and the years
trajectory.
So it seems like from SAPproject manager all the way to
pretty much top VP and CFOroles, including, I know you've
been very close to some of thestrategic MAs, mergers and
acquisitions that are alwayshard, at least from my view, or

(26:08):
probably everybody's view intelecom.
Maybe we can dive into that andthe lens of evaluating, because
I think every telco, whetherit's OEM or carriers, struggle
with that.
How do you choose what companyto buy and how do you let it or
not let it integrate for it tocontinue to thrive?
But reflecting back on yourimpressive journey again,

(26:33):
starting from project managementall the way to the pinnacle of
corporate world.
What are some of the keylearnings or roles that you
believe really shaped you, orperhaps leaders alongside that
influence you to build thistrajectory?

So it was not that I had a very clear career plan
in mind.
It just career just happened tome for some reason.
I've I've never been that typeof person that kind of knows
what I wanted to do 10 yearsfrom now, where I wanted to go.
I've probably come much furtherthan I thought in the beginning
I would come.
I've always kind of embracedthe the challenge at hand and

(27:13):
yeah, try to be committed firstof all to what you do and uh and
make the best out of that.
I think my experience has beenthat that delivers results.
If you deliver results in whatyou currently do, that will get
you into your next role.
And then either you findyourself the moment that you are
done and and ready forsomething next, or you get a

(27:33):
call even earlier than that, oruh that that that it's time to
move on and you're asked to dosomething else.
And I've been lucky, I think,in Ericsson.
You you've been at Ericsson aswell.
There's it's just such a bigcompany, there's always
something else to do, some otherplaces to go.
If you are a bit flexible andand and have the right kind of
mindset and and and deliverresults, I think there's a lot

(27:58):
of opportunities down the road.
And um it's also good in thatsense.
I've I coach some people and Ialways encourage them to be
open, right?
Don't don't fix yourself toomuch on that what you want,
because there might be theremight be trains leaving in a
different direction, right?
That are great trains and agreat opportunity as well.
And if you just focus on thatone narrow thing that you want

(28:21):
to do five or ten years fromnow, you you might limit
yourself, right, to not not notsee a kind of other
opportunities that are there onthe road.
So I've I've been in my careera little bit from from left to
right, most mostly in financeroles, but I've been in in
shared service center roles.
I've implemented Soros Oxleymany years ago.

(28:43):
That kind of experience iswhere you are down to the
basics, right?
To basic accounting.
Maybe it's not as attractive,but it's it just enriches you.
Also, the the switch to MAmaybe was at a moment of my
career.
I wasn't thinking of MA, butthen Ericsson acquired first
cradle point and then Voltage.

(29:03):
Since I was there in the US andready for next role, I was kind
of asked to to take a look atit, right?
And then you get into it andactually discover that it's it's
a great experience as well.
So I think that openness andjust do a good job on what you
do today and then be open onwhat's next.
Career isn't always playing outjust as you plan it, but

(29:26):
sometimes you have to make asidestep or or go somewhere
where the company really needsyou, even if you if you would
like to do something else.
I mean, in the long run it uhit pays off and it takes you
pretty far.
And then as always, you need alittle bit of luck as well,
right?
I think we we for some reasonalso have have been lucky in in

(29:48):
many things we have tried andapproached and and accomplished
as well.

Yeah.
And I think that luck sometimespairs with mentors and leaders
that influence us in a positiveway and kind of You and give you
confidence.
Yeah, maybe you can do it.
Like look at it this way.
Were there any specific thatstand out to you, Jorgen, that
helped you have that view as youwere going through the career

(30:12):
and building that trajectory?

Mentorship and coaching, yes, I think it's it's
important.
Maybe another thing, and maybeyou recognize that as well,
right?
It's tennis.
If you have played tennis,you've had a lot of coaches and
trainers and then people thatwell that that challenge you.
And um I think that's superimportant as well, right?
Sometimes you have it already,but it's always good to look for

(30:36):
the people that that kind ofchallenge you, right?
I think the the worst thing fora profession and a leader is
not to be challenged, not to bequestioned.
So yes, I've always I've beenvery lucky, I think, with the
bosses I've had, but also somesome of them I still am in
contact with.
And if you you get intosituations where you you need a

(30:57):
kind of an another opinion,right?
Things that you can't easilytalk about in in your current
work environment, I always knockon their doors and always get a
kind of a healthy challenge orhealthy opinion or healthy
advice.
And uh super important that uhthat part of the journey as
well.
Do you recognize that?

(31:18):
Has that been the same for you,Clara?
Uh tennis coaches, formerbosses, are they still uh part
of your active life and thencoaching circle?

Yes, 100%.
Um so resonating.
Actually, almost have agoosebumps about the
similarities because literallyjust recently joining this new
world that I'm in, it oftenallows you to reflect on the
past and reconnect with wherethe mentors, managers, and all
the whole scale of peopleallowed you to get to next.

(31:48):
And I was just going through myLinkedIn and somewhat
serendipitously.
I was like, oh, I wonder whatLee or Michael or Corey is
doing.
So it allows me to reconnectand it's so refreshing.
Actually, I just realized thatpretty much every single
manager, whether it was director skip manager, I still go to

(32:08):
them in some ways for guidance.
And I've had a really positiverelationship with them.
So it's kind of refreshingkeeping that up because they get
to know you in a specific timeof your life or a role, but then
as we continue to evolve, it'sstill nice to keep in touch and
just get their perspective.

(32:29):
So yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so when I tie into the multicultural
aspect as well, as youmentioned, starting in the
Netherlands, worked in Chile,which is very different market.
I'm assuming you were in Spainactually before that, I believe
you mentioned, assuming you'refluent in Spanish, although I
find the Chilean Spanish is verydifferent.

(32:52):
Fun fact, I actually came to USto play college because of a
Chilean coach.
And uh one of my teammates wasalso from Chile.
And especially the more southyou go, I feel like the Spanish
is very, very different.
And that's probably true forcertain parts of Spain,
actually, too.
So curious about that languageas well and how that shaped you

(33:15):
being able to understandmulticultural aspects and even
the differences on the globalbusiness scale that Ericsson
actually has, right?
They work with every singleoperator pretty much in every
single country in the worldthere is.
So, how do you look at that andhow would you suggest to
leverage it for growth from yourexperience?

Culture is a big part, right?
Of business and strategy aswell.
There's this saying of cultureeat strategy for breakfast, and
that's very true as well.
And uh language is just onepart of it.
I think it's it's also lucky,right?
If you're born in a smallercountry, um, I remember the
Netherlands, well, we didn'thave movies or books translated
in Dutch, right?

(33:57):
So we saw movies in theiroriginal language.
We had French, English, Germanon school, so you you grow up
quite with some skills inlanguage, just because you're
born in a small country.
Spanish as well.
Spanish is a big language.
I was lucky enough to learnthat when I moved to Spain, and
and then you moved to LatinAmerica, as you say, where you I

(34:18):
thought I spoke Spanish, butthen I landed in Chile, and it
was quite a hard experience,right?
So and when people explain yousomething in Spanish and you
you're standing there and youjust don't get it, right?
You ask them to repeat, andthey repeat up to three times,
and you still don't get it.
That's Chile, South America,they're all well, apart from
Brazil, all the other countriesspeak Spanish, but it's as you

(34:40):
say, it's a different Spanish inevery country, right?
So you get you have to get usedto the Argentinian Spanish, the
Chilenian Spanish, theColombian Spanish, the
Venezuelan Spanish, the MexicanSpanish, so all different
influences, and uh although theyhave a lot in common, there's
of course this Latin culture isis in common, but the countries

(35:01):
are very different.
I mean, Chile and Argentina aretwo countries very, very
different, right?
But the same habits in Europe.
I think we speak about Europeas one continent as well.
But I mean Latin uh cultures inthe Mediterranean country of
Portugal, Spain, and and Italyand Greece are very different

(35:22):
from Denmark, Sweden, Finland,and Norway, right?
So huge differences, althoughwe we we many times kind of talk
about a continent as one.
And uh it's important.
I think if if you move around alot, uh it's important to deal
with those cultural differences.
Cultures are different for areason.
So I spent quite a lot of timeto to really not only observe

(35:46):
the differences, but also try toget a bit of understanding why
are people kind of behaving howthey are, right?
Why why are they putting somuch importance on certain
things and and not at all onothers?
And uh you learn to deal withthat.
And if you move around, I thinka mis mistake that I made maybe
initially, and I see a lot ofpeople making as well, is that

(36:09):
you you you join a new country,you join a new culture, and you
observe a kind of thosedifferences, but then you you
tend to approach things yourway, right?
So you you come in and you say,now I know how this works and I
know how to improve this, soyou start to kind of pull the
people over to your site, right?

(36:31):
And that that many timesdoesn't work.
It's really if you join a newculture, a new organization, new
team, you really have to makean effort to become part of that
team, right?
Part of that culture.
So it's it's not them that haveto change initially, it's it's
you that have to adapt.
So you join them in theirculture and their ways of seeing

(36:54):
things and doing things, andthen you can start to change
from there, right?
So rather than pull them overto your side, you have to go to
the other side, and then you canstart kind of building on the
improvements or the changes fromthere, right?
Together with them.
That is something I think youyou learn.
And um, at least I learned thatin Europe and Latin America,

(37:14):
and then if you if you join theUnited States, and uh now I have
to be careful, there areprobably a lot of US listeners
here on the call.
But then you join you join whatwhat many people see as the
world's best country, right?
So then then all of a suddenyou're not kind of the the hero
that comes from Europe to LatinAmerica, then it's really your

(37:38):
kind of the guest there, right?
And and in the US we know howto do things we have probably
for good reasons, right?
And it's all true.
We have been super successful.
So this guy from theNetherlands, from Europe, comes
here to tell us what to do.
We know perfectly what to do.
So you have to get used to thatuh a bit as well.
And uh I think um justexperience, right?

(38:01):
And uh we we all make mistakes.
So if if you make thosemistakes initially when you join
a country, just uh learn fromit.
The mistake is is many times agreat opportunity to learn,
right?
And approach things a littlebit different.
So that that's definitelyrequired if you change
countries, change cultures, andyou'll find your way how to be

(38:22):
uh successful.
Now it's time for you, Clara.
Tell me a little bit about yourexperience that coming from
Europe into uh other countriesin the US as well.

Well, I haven't personally lived in as many as
you, so I love that aspect youshared, and I 100% love that
adaptability.
And I'm immigrant by now, I'mCzech American.
I never will be American andI'm not fully Czech anymore
because I lived half of my lifein different countries, although

(38:52):
I've always felt like I neverfit in anywhere.
So this just kind of confirms,you know, Claris n equals one,
which takes a while to navigatethrough life.
But that adaptability, I think,is so important.
And I see many people who evencome here in some cultures, I
think do this more than others.
I think, granted, because I'mCzech and I'm from such a small

(39:15):
country similar to theNetherlands, you realize early
on how in ways insignificant weare when it comes to the size,
right?
And like not being able, evenwith just the amount of people
that live there, we can never bethe world power in economy.
So I think that gives you alittle bit different mindset and
being adaptable and moldable,as well as for sure just my

(39:37):
tennis career taught me.
And it's like to you as well.
If I just go to your beginning,I think there was a prime
example of adaptability andflexibility.
You picking up your bike andgoing to tennis tournaments and
just starting from there, whosecouch you can sleep on to play
the next match.
So I think that definitelyallows us to adapt and adjust.

(40:00):
And even as I move around inthe US, obviously America is so
big.
So as I moved around, everypart of the country has slightly
different culture, and you haveto figure out what the nuances.
Let's say the Jersey people aremuch more straightforward.
And so don't take itpersonally, they're just the way
they are.
It's actually somewhatrefreshing in many ways to the

(40:23):
European, especially now.
I work with a company that'svery central and southeast
Europe focused.
And I actually like it becauseI'm drawing on a book of how I
used to be.
What happens in those parts,we're really bad in talking
about ourselves and sharing whatwe have done well, but they're
extremely good with ownershipand delivery.

(40:45):
So, me in a businessdevelopment, I was like, I love
it.
I just have to say the awesomethings that we do, and the team
will deliver.
So there's like these coolnuances as I think we grow
through life, figuring out whereyou fit in and what value you
can provide to your team or therole based on your experiences
to complement your teams andstrengths and still kind of fit

(41:09):
in and adjust, as you mentioned.
I think it's key to success.

Yeah, I think that the more variety, the more
diversity you can bringtogether, the better the
results, right?
Many times it's it's a littlebit harder to manage, but if if
you find the trick to get it allworking together, it's
definitely uh delivering muchbetter results than people that
all from one kind, right?
Or one culture or one side ofthe country.

Yes.
The differences always add upto a bigger value at the end.
I strongly believe in that andhave experienced that myself.
So speaking about differencesand experiences, I'm curious
about your perspective from thefinance side, because I I've
never been in CFO or financialroles.

(41:53):
Obviously, business is somewhatconnected because you always
counting the dollars.
You gotta know your profit,where your business is driving.
But being a controller and kindof overseeing the full
financial responsibility issomething completely different.
And I do want to draw intypically I prep for my guests.
So some of my friends were kindenough to share some insights,

(42:14):
even working with you.
And even from my observation,you were always very good at
holistic assessment andfinancial situation.
So my friends are asking if youlook at your business and even
from just numbers perspective.
I don't know if there is a wayyou actually add this nuance or
culture differences, because tome, numbers are numbers, they're

(42:36):
very black and white.
There's not much tomisinterpret one way or another.
How do you look at thesituation for what you look at
first, what's next?
How do you get a good sense ofwhat that accurate view is and
the plan that you may need tocreate?
Because throughout your again,career 30 years, the telecom

(42:59):
industry as well, Ericssontogether with it, has gone
through the ups and downs.
You've seen the evolution ofthe whole telco infrastructure
from probably 0G to now 6G thatis uh being promoted as the next
technology, whichever angle youwant to take it from.
I know it's a broad question,so I'll let you lead in however

(43:19):
you find it's a best to beexplained.

Maybe starting with the numbers part.
I've never been a CFO that thatfell in love with the numbers,
right?
The booking numbers or thereporting numbers, because those
are financials and they giveyou a picture but never tell the
story, right?
So I think whatever you join anew company or join a new region
or join a project, I've alwaystried to look beyond the

(43:45):
numbers, right?
And understand a little bitmore of the context.
So understand not only yourproject or your business, but
understand the market, what'shappening in the market, how are
we kind of behaving in thatenvironment and what results is
that kind of yielding, and uhmake it all relative to the
bigger picture.
And then don't don't just stickwith the financial numbers,

(44:08):
right?
There's a commercial andoperational reality behind those
numbers, and and rather thantrying to make the numbers look
better, you you have to makethose commercial contracts and
operations better, right?
That's the only way to make thenumbers also better in a
sustainable way.
So I've always kind of tried toinvest time and efforts in

(44:31):
understanding that reality.
I've always kind of doubleddown on the interactions and
involvement in operationalaspects of the company or the
project or commercial aspects.
Trying to find leadingindicators as well, or financial
numbers especially are reportedevery quarter in arrears.
So they're very lagging andprobably give you a good picture

(44:56):
about what happened yesterday,but not necessarily our good
guidance for what will happentomorrow.
So try to find leadingindicators in those kind of
operational, commercial, marketrealities that really give you a
good insight in what to expectnext, right?
Where where are we today?

(45:17):
Where is this going?
And and how are we gonna look?
Let's say a year from now, fiveyears from now, ten years from
now.
That has always given me theright guidance, I think, and
probably has been a good recipefor me to be successful of
leading certain parts of thebusiness right in in the right
way.

How do you know how to break it down?
Is it just a practice?
Because you kind of get intothese financial roles, like to a
point you said you have to lookat the past, how far to the
past you go, and how much do yourely on the past to figure it
out with some sort of predictionwhat the future may hold as

(46:00):
well as some of the trends inthe market.
What is that mix of youranalysis?
Any insights, lessons, keys tosuccess that you believe made
this view for you quiteaccurate?

It depends a bit.
Every every business, everymarket is is different in that
sense.
It depends a bit if you're newto it or if you are kind of more
experienced.
Uh the more experienced youare, the more you can rely on
your own judgment.
If you join a new region or anew business or a new project,
then you have to talk, right?
So the starting point is alwaystalk, talk to a lot of people,

(46:35):
listen really well to whatpeople are telling you, and and
they will guide you as well,right?
What the problems are, and havethey been there for a long
time?
Are they recently?
Have there been changes instrategy or in the team?
And sometimes you have to goreally far back, sometimes it
just happened, right?
Or hasn't even happened yet.
So it depends a bit, but Ithink that that um really

(46:58):
connect.
Uh so don't try to find it outor solve all on yourself, right?
You need to connect to find thepeople that that can help you
on finding the pain points,right?
And and not only the painpoints, but also kind of the the
solutions many times.
I've worked with a lot of teamsthat that probably had it all

(47:19):
in their own heads and in theirown hands as well, but but but
maybe couldn't find the dynamicsto get it all together, right?
And and and get out of theirkind of situation or find the
way to success.
Very different, uh, Clara,depending on uh yeah, situation,
background, kind of ofchallenges the the team or the

(47:42):
organization or the company orthe business is facing.

I'll share one thing, and I'm curious what your
view is.
This is one of my biggestlearnings, and I know you have,
again, built an amazing careerat Ericsson, so you move through
different roles every so often,which is actually part of that
growth within Ericsson too.
You get to view a differentlens.
But one of the biggest thingsI've learned when I get to a new
role is always do a duediligence and open your cards

(48:08):
and let everybody see whatyou're taking over.
And that can actually be oftenvery hard because sometimes
people don't like to see or haveyou go dig in and see the
numbers or the views because umwho knows what, our egos or
protectionism or whatever thatmight be, that is personal
responsibility.
But that's been the toughestand most valuable lesson.

(48:32):
It's not just your manager whoyou have to show, because you
never know.
You have to actually call out ameeting and sit down,
everybody, and show them all thecards and realities of what
you've taken over.
And if you just start withthat, you're gonna be in a much
better step from anything elsegoing forward.
I don't know if you resonatewith that because again, you

(48:54):
started many of these, what Iconsider, you know, financial
heavy, which you always need tounderstand your numbers roles,
but anything else you would wantto share to complement that
learning, or have you had thesame one, perhaps in the past?

Yeah, very much the same.
I think part of it maybe goeswith being Dutch, right?
I think as the Dutch, we have alittle bit of a fame of being
very direct and uh and and nononsense, right?
We put everything on the tablethat sometimes you have to be
careful with that to do it inthe right pace and the right
manners.
But um I think at the end it'sa strength, right?

(49:28):
But I think you have to bereally honest.
First of all, honest withyourself.
So really make up your mind,right?
What am I gonna do?
I'm not gonna play around, notwith myself, not with other
people.
Be very honest with yourselfabout what you want to do, what
you're gonna do, and then alsobe very transparent, right?
If you join a new team, a newcompany, an MA, if you join that

(49:51):
company that is being takenover, right?
And maybe they hold their cardsreally close to their chest.
Try to create that thatenvironment of of trust as as
soon as you can, right?
Just to be very honest, veryopen, and also be very honest
and very open about what isgonna happen, right?
Not only about what who you areand and why you're there and

(50:14):
what you're there for, but tryto construct like a very good
picture about what what's gonnahappen, what are we gonna do
here together, right?
And then there are there arekind of always people that love
it and people that that are kindof in the middle, and people
that that are scared of it,right?
Or don't like it at all.
So I'm I think that's alsoimportant to go through, right?

(50:36):
Don't sugarcoat it, don't don'tsell it any better than it will
be, because it's it's superimportant in those initial
stages that people reallyunderstand what's gonna happen
here, and everyone can make uphis or her mind, right?
About do I want to be part ofthat or or not?
Because you you better findthat out early than finding it

(50:59):
out along the way, right?
Where people really start tobehave in a suspicious way,
maybe you're not ascollaborative as they should be.
So that clarity, that thatputting the cards on the table
as you name it, is super, superimportant.
I think if you if you don't dothat with the right transparency
and quick enough in a newjourney, it would always hit

(51:23):
back against you, right?
Along along the road.
Super important to do that, anduh it's not not always easy,
but but it's giving the bestresults, right?
And that along time.
Not not only for the company,not only for yourself.
But I think even people that inthose moments suffer most, and
many times people leave, right?
Either for their own or youhave to let them go.

(51:44):
I think it's still the bestoutcome, right?
Because just keeping everythingas is or taking everyone
through the the same journey,even if they don't like it, is
is never gonna give a goodresult, right?
Not for them, not for thecompany, not for yourself.
That openness, thattransparency is super, super key
in anything we we do.

I conquer with it.
I always ponder if I was shapedthat way because of tennis.
I would say in sports, you haveto be 100% honest and real with
yourself or with the team asyou're playing the game.
Because if you're sugarcoatinga situation where you're trying
to talk to yourself that you'renot losing, but you are, there's
like a different game andstrategy you have to play

(52:27):
throughout different parts ofthe game, right?
As you progress.
Yeah.
In fact, I was just yesterdayon Instagram watching Serena and
Venus Williams having aconversation, and Venus was
sharing the same.
Like as an athlete, you have tobe brutally honest with
yourself and especiallyindividual athlete, again, from
that perspective, because you'rethere alone.

(52:49):
And so, do you feel thattranslated a little bit to the
finance as well, that mindsetfrom sports, saying that
reality, even when people don'tlike it?

Yeah, I think it it does, especially with tennis,
right?
Where many times it's well,many times it's always just you
out there, right?
In doubles, you have a, ofcourse, a mate to play with, but
in singles, it's you out thereon the court, and it's a big
problem-solving exercise, right?
Because you have matches whereyour own game is a kind of

(53:19):
winning you the match, but thenyou you face a lot of matches
where that's not working out,right?
And you have to you have tofind a way out to how to win
this match, and that's notthat's a kind of not always then
your natural game style, butbut but you have to adapt,
right?
You have to adapt to your ownstrength that daily, you have to
adapt to your opponent, youhave to adapt to the
circumstances, the weather.

(53:40):
So I think that that ability uhto adapt is um is definitely
somehow also staying with me,right?
In in business.
Things don't always go as youplan it, right?
Or you want it to be, and youyou better acknowledge that and
and find your way around it thaninsisting too much on an

(54:00):
unsuccessful strategy, right?
That's never bringing you uhvery far.
So that's my experience, Clark.
Must must resonate with withyou as well, I guess.

100% going back to the adaptability, I think
that carries on througheverything.
There's this equation that I'mtrying to think of it.
I always butcher these when I'mtrying to think of them top of
mind.
Reflection and iterationthrough that innovation and the
growth cycle is reallyimportant.
So you assess the situationwith the reality, create a plan,

(54:30):
start to execute, collect data,and then iterate.
So there's a cycle of thatiterative plan, whether that
initial hypothesis is true, andas you gather more data, you
kind of continue to tweak andmove forward with a flexible
mindset and tennis.
If you start with a specificgame but it's not working, and

(54:50):
you are clearly losing, yougotta think of a different
strategy or lean on a differentstroke.
It's for whatever reason thatthey that stroke that you always
had is just not showing up.
You have to find a creative wayto make another one stand out.
On that note, I do want to taketime, go a little bit more even
into MA because I find thatit's really hard for any

(55:13):
company, Ericsson or telcoacross the board.
Ericsson has been on thisjourney, even for me being
internally on reinventing, andfor that matter, every telco is
trying to figure out what is thenext level of growth.
Yeah.
If you look at the telcomarket, right, the growth is few
percentage year over yearbecause it's established
technology, although we gothrough the G's upgrades.

(55:35):
You did mention Vonage andCradle Point acquisition.
I was privileged to have Georgeon the podcast, who is a
fantastic human.
I still talk to him now andthen.
I love his um stay humble yethungry motto.
But I do want to sharesomething from George that I
think you would enjoy hearingand would love your perspective.

(55:56):
George shared, he has to saythat any success Eriksson has
had with the acquisition ofCradle Point is due in a large
part to you.
You were both the Sherpa andbodyguard of Cradle Point.
You quickly understood thevalue drivers of their business
and how how Ericson may be ableto amplify those.

(56:16):
And importantly, how bigcompanies and the bureaucracies
within the companies could crushmuch smaller companies of their
size and business market.
So George shares, he openlygave me the permission to share
this.
He'll always be grateful to youfor your help and mentorship as
they became part of Ericsson.

(56:36):
And you're super smart from IQto EQ, which I conquer and
everybody I have talked to aswell.
So we have a perfectcombination, pragmatic leader
that provides clarity andkindness throughout the process.
You're the epitome of the verybest of Ericsson.
So George also asked, he's verycurious and interested to hear

(56:57):
about some of your learningsfrom that MA you have had or
challenges, big companiesacquiring smaller companies that
operate in perhaps evendifferent markets with different
viral drivers than Ericssonthat you may want to share with
the audience.

Yeah, I'm not happy to do so, and great to uh hear
about uh George.
He's a great leader, greatperson, as you uh as you say.
Not only George, I reallyenjoyed working with the whole
Cradlepoint team.
Yeah, it's such a great teamrunning in a company from
startup to to reasonable size.
When we acquired them, I thinkthey were about 500 people,
maybe at that point where analmost hundred thousand people

(57:36):
company like Ericsson takes overa 500 people company like
Cradle Point.
There's a lot, there's a lothappening, right?
Definitely uh a greatexperience, great people on both
sides, I must say.
And my role maybe as anintegration lead was very much
making the two worlds connect,right?
Because those big differencesin size, it's not only the size,

(57:59):
it's also maturity or cradlepoint, which was coming from a
startup, successful startup.
There was an a great can-doculture, right?
Experienced leaders like Georgewere very quick in finding a
solution to whatever problemarised.
And if it worked, it was goodenough, right?
And of course, then you becomepart of an Ericsson who has to

(58:21):
comply with global regulationsand cybersecurity, the quarterly
reporting and other rulesabove, right?
It's all a very different,difficult reality to understand
and to live with for thosehundred thousand people at
Ericsson, right?
Where you have a kind of globalprocesses and global systems
and global responsibles foreverything.

(58:44):
So with 500 versus 100,000,there's roughly 200 people at
Ericsson site for everyone inCradle Point, right?
So what you have really toavoid is that those 200 people
jump on that that guy or girl inCradle Point.
So that was a big part of myrole, just to make the two parts

(59:07):
connect in a good way and umand try to understand each
other, right?
I think many many mistakes, andwe we also looked back on
Ericsson, of course, and talkedwith a lot of uh people involved
in earlier M ⁇ As in Ericsson.
I think that the most commonmistake we had made in in
earlier M ⁇ As was was doingthat all too quickly, right?

(59:28):
Take decisions withoutunderstanding, take decisions
without thinking them throughwhat they would kind of generate
and then yield on on the otherside.
So that was a big part of whatwe did in the beginning and big
part of the success as well, Ithink, just to shield Cradle
Point a little bit in thebeginning, try first to get a
good understanding of thatenterprise business, right?

(59:52):
In Ericsson, we are very muchon the on the CSP side.
We work with the big operatorslike the ATTs of the world.
And Cradle Point has enterprisecustomers, right?
Which are very different dealsizes, very different clock
speeds, very different deliverytimes as well, right?
It's 24, 48 hours deliveryversus weeks or months on uh on

(01:00:17):
a core business site inEricsson.
So that was a big part of uh ofmy role, I think, to make those
connections in all thedifferent dimensions, right?
Commercially, supply,operations, legal, finance, you
name it.
Very uh grateful, Jorney.
I think it's still a greatacquisition.
George has uh has left CradlePoint in the in the meantime,

(01:00:39):
but still great to hear fromGeorge.
Very nice words can only echothose very same terms for uh
George and his team.
Uh they're being great in uh inbeing acquired.
It's not always easy to beacquired, a big company where
everything becomes global andwith all the exposure related.
But yeah, we did uh we did agood job all together there.
So looking back with very goodfeelings on that period.

Klara Jagosova (01:01:03):
And I think with every acquisition comes also
change and the fear of change.
I think most of the time, Iprobably often try to lie to
myself that I'm not scared ofchange.
I'm sure there's underlyingadrenaline levels that I go
through as well when I'mchanging.
I'm just trying to reframe themindset from the fear and

(01:01:23):
anxiety to looking forward toit.
It's actually a very smalltwist.
So if you learn how to do thatin life, it's easier.
But I think the vast majorityof us still are afraid of
change.
So to your point, leading amuch smaller company through
this acquisition.
I'm sure a lot of people thatare part of it is like, oh my
God, what does it mean for us?

(01:01:43):
What's gonna change?
Working wise, overallbusiness-wise,
hierarchical-wise, there's a lotof chaos, I'm sure, and just
thoughts that are going onthrough their minds that are
probably mostly kind of changedand by the default lean towards
being fur-driven.

Jurgen Arts (01:02:00):
And I think that change can be great, right?
There's, I still remember withCradle Point, kind of their
technical engineers that they'refor them, change was great,
right?
Because they all of a suddengot direct access to this world
of experience and RD on theEricsson site.
So they have an open for themin that sense, right?
But if you are working in asmaller function in finance or

(01:02:21):
people where it's just a verysmall team, and then all of a
sudden you have to deal withthese big functions in Ericsson,
right?
And there are global systems,then it can can become all a
little bit less attractive.
As I mentioned earlier on, it'ssuper important, I think, just
to be very clear and transparenton that, because then everyone
can make up his or her mind aswell, right?

(01:02:42):
About what do I like this?
Do I want to stay?
Do I want to go full for this?
Or am I kind of coming at apoint where I need to consider
all the other alternatives thatcan be very valid and should be
supported as well.

Before we move from MA, again, that part is
always very complex.
Anything from your experienceor learnings you want to share
with the world how to navigateor not navigate?

Let me just give a high-level advice.
I think one thing I alreadysaid, so don't take decisions
before you really understand,right, what it means on both
parties.
That's super important.
And uh respect and betransparent, work together.
Every MA is different.
It's good to get thereflections from one example for
another, but at the end, youneed to dig deep.

(01:03:28):
Be with the people, be with theteam on both sides, make the
right connections.
That's probably the best recipeto make an MA successful over
time.

And so switching a little bit more towards the
leadership.
I'm curious if you have anyspecific leadership principles
again, going back on your careerthat you have honed, you want
to share with the world.

I think I mentioned them maybe already, right?
Leadership principles arealways be yourself, be honest,
and create an environment forpeople that they feel good in,
right?
I think we we all spend a lotof time at work, so you better
make it a place where peoplefeel feel good, feel valued,
feel that they reallycontribute.
So that that's a kind of basictable stakes, I think.

(01:04:08):
Be very clear about thechallenge at hand, right?
So, what is it that we're gonnado together?
Make sure that everyone kind ofunderstands, ties into that,
finds a place in that as well,and then execute.
I mean, it's all aboutexecution and make sure you're
you're making progress.
So, course correct down theroad.
The world is not always lookingas we thought it would look a

(01:04:31):
quarter earlier or year earlier.
So you you really have to adaptand follow up, be with the
team, make sure you stayconnected, especially in these
days of remote connectivity,right?
We don't gather together on thesame place anymore.
And it's a hard part many timesin these days of video
conferencing.
You you need to find ways, andand sometimes that requires

(01:04:54):
travel as well, bring peopletogether really to find that
chemistry as well, right?
And really check in that thateveryone is still committed,
everyone is still connected, andand that the team is still uh
giving the best, yeah, the bestresults it it can.
So that is uh a little bit ofhow I've approached always any
challenge.
It's running a business,running a team, running an MA

(01:05:17):
project, or any other kind ofbusiness has always worked out
pretty well for me.
I don't know if that'sleadership principles, but
that's at least how I've alwaysapproached my challenges
professionally.

Yeah, and you mentioned team and building
their team.
That's also very important.
And I even find from my limitedexperience, actually it's from
tennis or the corporate world,the higher up you go, the
lonelier in some ways it mayseem to be.
I don't know if you would agreewith it or not.
And so leaning back on yourteam, and as you even continue

(01:05:52):
to move through the roles,building that team for yourself
and taking them along seems likeyou have done that fantastic
even through some of thoseexamples.
But any other insights of howto do that effectively?
So we as leaders, as wecontinue to grow, don't feel
lonely because you have reallybeen on the pinnacle of the
corporate world.

(01:06:12):
I would compare in the athleticlife for 10, 15 years, which is
amazing longevity.
I mean, that's hard to achievefor anybody below 1% of people
achieve that, right?
So any lessons, again, Keith tosuccess, because I'm imagining
having a team to lean on inthose different roles is a

(01:06:32):
really important part of stayingin those roles.

I think the higher up you get, the more you you
depend on the team, right?
You need to depend on the team.
If you you start your career,you can be the smart girl or the
smart guy of the team.
But the the earlier earlierpromotions or the earlier career
steps, it's really aboutchanging that, right?
You you need to change frombeing that smart person yourself

(01:06:57):
to become a leader of smartpersons, right?
And and then further the nextstep is to become a leader of
smart persons, right?
So you need you need toconnect, but you need also to
take some more distance yourselffrom operational things and and
just make sure you have a greatteam, right?

(01:07:18):
That does that, not for you,but for the organization or for
the the greater good or forthemselves.
That's how I've experienced it.
So I've always been a kind ofin my head, very quick in in
problem solving.
And I was probably in theearlier days of my career always
the first one to raise my handto come up with my idea, and
also there you learn to kind ofjust just hold that back a

(01:07:40):
little bit, right?
Listen, listen a bit better toother ideas, try to work with
what others give you rather thanimposing directly your own idea
or way to solve things.
And uh yeah, that's that's amuch better way.
If you're higher up, then youdefinitely need that, right?
You you cannot be oneverything, you need to rely on

(01:08:00):
a team that comes up with greatideas, and the more advanced we
get in our career and with theyoung next generations with all
their preparations of AI and newtechnologies and digital born,
they actually are much better atsolving certain problems than I
will ever get, right?
So that's that's a learning,that's a journey, I think.

(01:08:22):
And then the other part Imentioned as well, right?
Make sure as a leader also thatyou always have people around
you that challenge you, right?
As I said, the worst, the worstthing that can happen to you as
a leader is that everyoneagrees with you.
Because then no one will warnyou at the moment you're about
to make a mistake.
You need that challengingenvironment around you that can

(01:08:42):
either come from your team, ifyou don't get enough from your
team, then make sure you findother people, right?
Coaches or friends or otherprofessionals in the industry
that can challenge you, thatdare to challenge you, and don't
ever think that you will alwaysbe right in everything you come
up with.
We always make a lot ofmistakes, uh, apart from some

(01:09:02):
good decisions that we mightmake.
You better have people aroundyou that uh kind of alert you
about that and warn you beforeit's too late.
It's not super important, thoseaspects as well.

And I actually have to validate you have been
always very good with that andeven checking in with people at
different levels.
I still remember one event thatyou and I had met, and you
actually created time to come inand ask me and to check in.
I think of anything.
It just speaks about you beingaware and noticing what's going

(01:09:36):
on and creating that space,which I think is really
important for anybody on theteam or beyond, and having that
curiosity to really tap into thevarious levels of the
organization to see if youunderstand or the realities the
right way.

Yeah, I miss those days.
I must say, Clara, that uh nowwith the COVID and this virtual
world, right?
It's not that easy to walkaround.
I've always enjoyed to bearound in the offices where I
was based and just walk around.
My favorite at least once aweek, I was walking around with
the head of HR, the head ofpeople.
I always had a theory thatculture, but also talent is very

(01:10:16):
visible, right?
And that that's what I have ahard time these days with all
these virtual meetings to tomake time for and find.
When you walk around and theevents we had at Ericsson and
where we met are greatlocations, right?
So of course you can meet at abar with with the guys you
already know.
But I always enjoy to goaround, right, and meet meet a
kind of new people.

(01:10:37):
And if I said that talent isvery visible, I always had a
theory that if you walk aroundin your office and just try it,
right?
Invite the people, thelisteners you to do it, just
experiment with it, walk around,go to another floor of another
department and and see whathappens.
And there are a lot of peoplethat that see, oh, one of the
the big the CFO is at our floor,right?

(01:10:59):
So you see you see peopleshying away or just simulate
that they're very busy at thatmoment.
But I've always said the realtalent doesn't let that chance
go by.
So I always enjoyed those twoor three kind of, even if they
were nervous, but that stood upand reached out and shook your

(01:11:19):
hand and presented themselves,and then you you get a nice
conversation out of the nothing.
And I still I still remember,Clara, when when we met, you
were one of those persons,right?
That we met at an event that weyou triggered a conversation,
and then that's how we got toknow each other.
I think that's what talentdoes.
I mean, if you get theopportunity to just meet and be

(01:11:40):
introduced to someone thatreally can can mean something
for you career-wise, or justprofessionally, or amplify your
network with something you youdidn't know yesterday, that's a
great opportunity, right?
So thanks to you, Clara, forreaching out for that moment.
If not, we might not have beenhere today together.

(01:12:00):
But in general, I think it goesfar beyond that, right?
That's really, as I said, whatI miss these days with all these
virtual meetings.
Let's not give on that.
And a big advice to everyonehere in the audience.
Walk around and try to spot thetalent and the culture in your
offices, right?
It's it's there, it's for grab,and it's it's hard to find it

(01:12:22):
that way in these virtualmeeting uh habits that that we
have today.

Yes.
I still don't know what theright balance is, but I agree.
There's just something thatcannot be replaced virtually
when you're in the office andjust bumping into people and
seeing them, I always say in thereal version, not just the 2D
or even if it's 3D, if we'regonna roll out to the AR VR
glasses, I think there's stillmuch more to be sensed and felt

(01:12:49):
and experienced.
So yeah, I I do enjoy thecombination.
But overall telecom industry,maybe looking ahead.
What keeps you curious now?
Any key things, trends thatyou're spotting, following.
If we were to look six, one,two years ahead.
What is your gain fromcuriosity diving into?

(01:13:10):
Because I know you're alwayscurious, so pondering if you
want to share with us and theworld.

Yeah, curiosity is always part of me.
You're right.
AI is definitely a big thinghappening, right?
Not only in telecom, I think inthe world.
I'm trying to spend uh quite abit of time now just
understanding AI, playing aroundwith it, what can it do for
you, trying to make use of AI asmuch as I can in whatever is on

(01:13:35):
my agenda.
So that's a big part.
And then maybe a bit totelecom.
As you know, and in Ericsson,we're making a big bet now into
enterprise, but also into thisnetwork platform, right?
Where uh all the greatfunctionality of 5G can actually
be consumed in in the form ofAPIs.
That's why we acquired Vollegeas well, where we created Aduna.

(01:13:57):
And I think that's superimportant, not only for us in
Ericsson, but for the telecomindustry as a whole.
I think if if something hasbeen standing out in telecom,
it's the flat revenue line,right?
All the companies, us as kindof equipment providers like
Ericsson and uh Pierce, but alsothe operators like AT ⁇ T and

(01:14:17):
others in all these years, inthe last two or three decades,
we haven't seen our revenuesgrow, right?
In spite of all this greattechnology with 4G, 5G, in the
future 6G that we are bringingto the market, our revenues have
been flettish, and uh and we'veseen the value kind of being
generated in stock price andearnings by um over-the-top

(01:14:40):
players, web scalers.
So that is the game that we uh,at least in our side, together
with our operator customers,would like to change, right?
And getting away from this kindof monthly billing in the
consumer space, but also anenterprise is still an industry
that's based on a monthly bill,get much more pay per use.

(01:15:02):
Maybe you want in in gaming orfor this video conference, you
want a superior performancesecured by network slice, and
then maybe you're willing to payfor that a little bit of money
as well.
So changing that way thattelecom is uh consumed and and
paid for.
That's a big bet now fromEricsson, but it goes way beyond

(01:15:26):
Ericsson, right?
It goes for the industry.

Yes.

And that's hopefully the recipe to uh see
that stability in our stockprice and uh revenues turning
into more growth into the futureas well.

Yeah, I know that's top of mind for everyone
and pretty much every carrier inthe world.
So look forward to continuingwith that and maybe in any ways
help enable it with some of theawesome talent that we have.
AI, I do want to dive in.
Anything fun you're exploring,you mentioned you're playing
with it.
I'm sure like many of us, whatdo you enjoy most about it or

(01:16:00):
any specific application thatreally allowed you to understand
the power of AI?

Oh, it's very uh versatile, right?
It's not only search ortranslating, it's a lot of
knowledge jobs, right?
I think any legal opinion youwant to get on any of the topics
you deal with, it's uh ultraGBT or any of the other AI
engines, it's it's giving yougreat results, right?
That you have fingertips.
So I think I'm just trying touh yeah in my day-to-day life,

(01:16:28):
try to remind about theexistence of AI.
And maybe you you don't fullyrely on it, right?
If it's really a trulyimportant topic, you don't just
rely on the kind of opinion youget from an AI engine and
instead of from your lawyer, butat least you start to compare,
right?
And I think we've already seena huge improvement in the

(01:16:49):
quality and the outcomes ofwhatever you get from AI.
I think that will continue.
I think we can expect AI tobecome more and more powerful in
the future, and it's it's up tous to find ways how to embed
that in our day-to-day lifeprofessionally, but also
personally.
I think else in the in thepersonal uh things, there's a

(01:17:10):
lot of potential in AI, and wedon't know exactly when, and we
don't know exactly how and andwhich companies are to be
successful, but I think AI willhave a big place in our lives
going forward that I'm prettysure about.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I do enjoy actually my podcastas my playground for AI stuff
and tools as well, uh,especially the one we're using
even for recording Riversidethat have quite a few AI
features, and it's impressivehow it can help save time, or
people who aren't skilled invideos like myself, be able to
eventually do it all by myself.

(01:17:45):
It's uh kind of fun and lookforward to seeing where things
go.
Before last two closingquestions, anything that's top
of mind or you want to sharewith the audience, AI, non-AI,
telco, leadership.

Maybe sharing.
I think I told you withoutmaybe openly talking about it.
I'm uh I'm getting at the pointwhere I'm leaving Ericsson
after uh 29 years of career.
So at the end of January, Iwill leave the company I've uh
I've enjoyed working at morethan I ever imagined for 29
years.
So I'm running a kind of uhexercise now, a boot camp about

(01:18:22):
what to do next.
Really uh looking forward to uhyeah, what probably will be the
last phase of my career to makethat a journey as exciting as
as the last 29 years have beenas at this uh fantastic company.
So that's that's where I'm at.
Happy to uh engage on that withuh George or other people
listening to this podcast andwant to uh have a chat about

(01:18:44):
that, or you personally, Clara,then uh feel free to reach out
and uh happy to continue thispodcast in another shape or form
after it's published.

Yeah, and congratulations, that is a big
change, and I have no doubtyou'll take all the amazing
leadership lessons and skills tothe next endeavor.
Seems like you're still veryearly through the process.
Anything you want to share ofwhere your enthusiasm is falling
into or specific areas thateven early on you're being

(01:19:14):
pulled towards to explore?

Not yet.
It's still very early.
I have to uh find that out.
There's a pathway for that tofind it out, and I'm uh I'm just
entering that pathway, I feel.
So probably by the end of theyear or latest in January, I
might have a more concrete ideato uh yeah, to know what what my
next journey will be.
But as I said, anyone thatwants to give input on that or

(01:19:38):
has a great idea about how toapproach that or what that might
be, happy to uh to engage anduh let's see what comes out.
So maybe I follow your steps,Clara.
You took that step four yearsago and it has worked out very
well for you, I understand.
So maybe you can become one ofmy coaches for that uh next few
months in how to approach thatand uh and where it will land.

Anytime.
And I know your level is kindof completely different, but I'm
sure some of the principles dostill apply.
And I think a lot of what wehave discussed, actually in this
podcast, the adaptability andflexibility and open mind, and
um being able to explore whilebeing aware of your strengths
will lead you in the rightdirection.
And it seems like often a messbecause I have no doubt you have

(01:20:25):
a lot of interesting thingscoming your way, which can be
sometimes even hard to distillwhich one is the most exciting
one, because I'm sure there willbe many.
But happy to brainstormanytime.
Maybe we'll manage to meet fora dinner at some point.
It's always a fun conversation.
On that note, and the change.

(01:20:45):
There's lots happening in theworld when it comes to actually
change your world, whether it'sbusiness, economical, or even
still wars and fear of AI.
Anything you would want toinspire people to be doing more
of or less of?

Maybe just a general advice here, the advice
I give a lot to the people Iused to coach is take some
distance every now and then,right?
That's what I'm doing now withmy job.
That's what I've tried to doduring my career as well.
And what I really think that alot of people benefit a lot
from, right?
We are all running around athigh speed, full agenda.

(01:21:20):
So it's hard to take distancefrom what you're doing.
And at the same time, it'ssuper, super important.
So as I said, many times ifpeople come to me and ask for a
bit of advice, I invite themfirst to take a step back,
right?
So not one step back, but takethree step backs and try to get
that more helicopter view,right?
Sometimes you need to walk upthe hill and look at at

(01:21:43):
everything that's happening downthere from above, and then you
you will understand a little bitmore better the dynamics.
Things just look different andmaybe more logical if you take
some more distance from them.
So that has always helped me.
That's what I'm trying to donow as well in this journey
about finding out where to gonext.
And uh yeah, definitely anadvice that I I give a lot of

(01:22:06):
the people I coach, and maybe Ican generalize that you're out.

Love it.
And um seems like it wasactually an open invite for
people to reach you.
I um have your LinkedInprofile, so with your
permission, uh add it to theepisode notes so people can
easily click and connect.
Is there any other best way tofollow you, connect with you,
and what Jurgen is up to asyou're exploring even what's

(01:22:30):
next ahead?

LinkedIn is probably the best way.
I'm uh on that quitefrequently.
And uh I don't know if you getmy email or phone from it, but
if not, then just connect viaLinkedIn and I'll uh react on
that and then we take it fromthere.

Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much,Jurgen, for this time.
I know we went over a bit and Icould talk to you for hours and
look forward to connecting inperson, having some awesome
food.
Whoever will end up cooking,I'm sure you'll better cook than
me, maybe playing some puddleand uh chatting about business
world life, telco and beyond.

Super.
Thanks a lot, Clara.
Thanks a lot for having me.
And uh yeah, let's let's find atime and place to meet.

I look forward to that.
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Clara.
If you enjoyed this episode, Iwant to ask you to please do two
things that would help megreatly.
One, please consider leaving areview on Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, or any other podcastingplatform that you use to listen
to this episode.
Two, please share this podcastwith a friend who you believe

(01:23:33):
might enjoy it as well.
It is a great way to remindsomeone you care about them by
sharing a conversation theymight be interested in.
Thank you for listening.

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Klara Jagosova

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}89. Jurgen Arts︱From Court to CFO: Adaptability, AI & the Future of Telco Networks