"The Russian Bear" Ivan Koloff - A Shamefull Hall Of Fame Snub - Grappling With Canada

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
the

(00:06):
call off hammering away on the
midsection of Bruno Sammartino
kicking him into the midsection
now
call off pulls him out has him in
the cover one two and Sammartino

(00:30):
is still able to kick out now
call off going for the slam
again and again just a count of
two Sammartino with Ivan Coelhoff
up in the air and that made he
really slammed him again has him

(00:51):
up there could be over count of
two again.
That went up all the way however
Ivan Coelhoff rolled off the
apron of the ring and is now as
you see on the outside of the
ring apparently trying to catch
him.
Oh now it's Sammartino who will
not let Ivan Coelhoff in

(01:22):
again Sammartino comes over.
So Bruno Sammartino giving Ivan
Coelhoff a little.
Wait a minute.
They're both out there.
Ivan Coelhoff picked up a chair
on the outside of the ring and
leveled Bruno Sammartino.

(02:09):
Hello everyone and welcome to
season four of Grappling with
Canada.
As usual I'm your host the
Taxman.
I hope that everybody had a very
safe but more importantly a very
fun holiday season and I'm
looking forward to a tremendous
fourth season of the Grappling

(02:30):
with Canada podcast.
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(02:51):
In the aforementioned back
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(03:11):
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(03:32):
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(03:53):
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information in the link tree
link in today's show notes.
Now the reason we're all here
today we're going to be having a
tremendous conversation
regarding somebody who in my
opinion it's an absolute shame

(04:13):
and travesty for them not to be
included in WWE's Hall of Fame
and yes we will be getting on to
the validity of said Hall of
Fame but that's the topic for a
little bit later in tonight's
conversation.
But somebody who should be in
there nonetheless for a
plethora of reasons is the
incredible Ivan Koloff.

(04:34):
Tonight I'm very pleased to be
joined by two amazing guests
who are really going to set this
stage not just for Ivan Koloff
the wrestler but Ivan Koloff the
person and how he really shaped
people's we'll say feelings
towards professional wrestling.

(04:55):
We're going to get to a lot that
later with my two tremendous
guests.
We have Benny Scala you may have
heard of him from a plethora of
podcasts that he's been on as
well as his tremendous articles
in prowrestlingstories.com.
Also joining the program is
long time friend and good friend

(05:16):
of the show reoccurring guest
Evan Ginsberg.
Now these two gentlemen are
going to be providing tremendous
insight not only into what Ivan
Koloff meant to the WWF but also
wrestling in general and just the
absolute cultural icon that he
was during his major runs and

(05:39):
also some let's say lesser known
runs that are equally as
impressive.
I'm really looking forward to
getting into that in just a few
minutes.
But I think the best way to do
Plymouth Canada is to kick this
this as we normally do on
program off with some classic
wrestling audio.
So please enjoy the abusive

(06:03):
stylings if you will.
Ivan Koloff getting into a
little bit of trouble with Pat
Patterson.
Please enjoy.

(06:39):
I think you're being summoned if
you would.
Well he must have something very
important to say.
All right.
We'll go now if we can set up an
interview.
On his way down now to see what
Ivan Koloff is has on his mind.
All right let's go now to Pat
Patterson.
Obviously you have something

(07:00):
very important to say.
Why don't you say what you have
to say.
Because every time I have
statements about you I have film
on you about saying things about
Koloff that are all lies.
And I don't like this one bit.
You accused Koloff of breaking
rules using poor logic and rings

(07:20):
to gain victory.
You are degrading Koloff all the
time.
I don't like this.
I think you are nothing
Patterson but a dirty slimy
filthy American prejudiced pig.
You understand.
Listen to me Koloff.
When I commentate on your mask I
don't lie I tell the truth.
I've always said I've always
praised you that you're a great

(07:41):
wrestler.
You're a former world champion
but all you do is degrade the
American wrestler.
I think American wrestlers just
as great as you are.
I tell you what Patterson I am
not a liar and the American
people know who the liar is.
You got to get over here.

(08:15):
After Koloff Patterson ran in
rain.
My goodness.
Koloff gave him a shot.
Unbelievable.
Unbelievable.
Pat Patterson.
Well his commentary and he is
serious.

(08:47):
If you're familiar with previous
episodes of Grappling with Canada
you'll note that during the start
of every episode I normally go
into a deep dive into the
individual's personal and private
background to give more context
for later conversations in that
episode.
I'm thinking specifically you

(09:08):
know episodes such as Chief Don
Eagle where his background story
is let's just say not very
accurate in most media or
somebody like Jack Taylor whose
background story was essentially
lost to time until uncovered by
some tremendous research.

(09:28):
But this episode is a little bit
different.
The background information on
Ivan Koloff actually comes up
just in casual conversation with
my two guests that you're going
to hear in just a little bit
Evan Ginsburg and Benny Scala.
So not that it's not important
to cover the background of Ivan
Koloff.
Trust me it is and it's very

(09:50):
impressive as you're going to
find out very shortly.
But not only does it come up in
conversation with both of them
but it's also covered extensively
by Ivan Koloff himself with the
two books that he wrote on him
or I guess co-wrote on himself
is that wrestling fake The
Bare Facts as well as Life in

(10:12):
the Trenches where he was in
both of them very straightforward
with his personal life his life
before wrestling but more
importantly his life after
wrestling.
And that's something that we're
going to really be spending quite
a bit of time on in the context
of this episode because as much
as I want fans who maybe are

(10:35):
unfamiliar with Ivan Koloff to
research and respect the wrestler
I also want people to respect the
man and I think you will at the
end of the conversations that
you're going to hear today.
Now without further ado we're
going to be jumping right into my
conversation with Benny Scala.

(10:57):
Now I have to apologize.
You're going to hear some
interesting audio in that episode
mostly from me.
Unfortunately during the course
of recording that episode or that
portion of the program I should
say I had a terrible case of
bronchitis so the cough button

(11:17):
was activated many many many
many many times but Benny was a
great guest he was a real treat
to have of the program and again
we had just such a great free
flowing conversation that really
encapsulates the story of Ivan
Koloff not just from a fan's

(11:38):
perspective but also somebody
who's looking at things from a
historical mind and somebody
who's looking at things as a
nowadays fan if you will I think
that's probably the best way to
say it.
So before we get to that I will
play some more classic audio and

(11:58):
on the other side my conversation
with Benny Scala.
Please enjoy.
Just a moment we will see Nikita
Koloff in the ring and Ivan is
with us here at ringside to talk
about that match Nikita Koloff
he is an awesome force but we're
talking about the world heavyweight
champions the best in all the
world.
Well you are going to see in a
few seconds here why Rick Flair

(12:20):
has been avoiding Nikita Koloff
why Rick Flair every time he
hears the name Nikita Koloff he
gets chilled all over why Rick
Flair is very reluctant to sign
any contract whenever Nick
Nikita Koloff's name is mentioned
why because he knows Nikita
Koloff has more power than he has

(12:40):
more wrestling ability than this
Rick Flair and he knows Rick Flair
is just a matter of time before
Nikita Koloff would destroy him
and take world title away from
him.
Let's go to the ring.
And there he goes.
You see Nikita he doesn't waste
any time.
He just goes after his opponent

(13:01):
demolish him.
You see Nick Flair you don't have
a chance.
You better go stay back in the
shadow.
That's accurate.
Rick Flair is here.
I'm going downstairs and I'm sick
and tired of you running your
mouth.
Come here Koloff.
I'm telling you right now get
out of the way Tony.
I'm sick and tired of you running
your mouth.
Nikita Koloff don't mean nothing

(13:23):
to me.
You don't mean nothing.
This is America.
We do what we want to do.
We want to get dressed up pretty.
We get dressed up pretty.
We want to wear blue jeans.
We wear blue jeans.
We want to go out and go look at
women.
We go out and go look at women.
This is America.
We're men of the year.
Nick Flair.
We're not afraid of you.
You're going to find out that

(13:45):
you're not fair enough for
Nikita Koloff by looking.
You know I made that comment a
couple of weeks ago that I just
might make him my personal
gardener.
I'm looking for a chauffeur.
And if you want a job driving my
car around you are hired right
now.
Don't you insult me Nick Flair.
Don't you insult the name of

(14:07):
the name of the right now.
You got a problem.
You want to get this resolved.
Why don't you and I come over
here right now.
You want to get results.
Come on.
You want to get results.
Come on.
Come on.
Come on.
Come on.
Come on.
My goodness.
Nikita Koloff from behind David.

(14:28):
He got the champion from behind
and now he is ripping off his.
He's ripping off that suit of
his.
his and now he's ripping off
that suit of his and now he's
ripping off his.
his and now he's ripping off
that suit of his and now he's

(14:51):
ripping off that suit of his.
All right so Benny Scala I'm 68
years old became a fan.
So it's kind of a little bit of
a long story but I remember was
either 1966 or 1967.
on, which was never on in my house. But at that precise moment, serendipity, Ray Morgan
was interviewing Bruno San Martino. And so I just got transfixed. Like, who is this guy?

(15:17):
I mean, Bruno looked like a Superman to me. I mean, I'm 11, 12 years old. And, you know,
at the end of every interview, Ray Morgan would always ask Bruno, Bruno, how about saying a word
for, you know, for your Italian fans. And of course, both of my parents spoke fluent Italian.
My mom happened, my mom was old, she was always in the kitchen. That's what Italian mothers did,

(15:37):
you know, 24 seven. I said, Mom, Mom, come here. And she actually translated what Bruno said. And
she says, Man, that guy is very classy, because he was just thanking his fans for all the support,
you know, typical Bruno stuff. And so I really didn't give it a second thought. But the Christmas
of 1967, because I was a huge sports fan, I watched me in baseball, basketball, football, I mean,

(16:01):
I was a four for a sport guy, you know, and I would hog the family TV set. And I guess my parents got
tired of that. And I got a 12 inch high Tachi TV black and white for my for Christmas 1967.
So I brought it up to my room, they figured I got rid of got rid of this kid, please, like 21.
So I vividly remember on a Saturday night, you know, fooling around the TV, you know, like I

(16:27):
discovered the sheet, the UHF dial, messing with that, get the channel 47, which was from Newark,
New Jersey. And it just happened to be right at the moment that wrestling and I just see this
thing says lucha libre. And I thought, you know, I knew that the station was Spanish, well, maybe I
can at least watch and you know, maybe just watch the action. As it turned out, it was a capital

(16:52):
wrestling from the National Arena, Washington, DC, it was Ray Morgan, same guy. And it was but it
was all in English. And you know, now, now, now I'm really hooked. Right. And so now this is early 68.
A couple of months later, they happen to be appearing at the island garden. So it was like
kind of a spot show. And I asked my dad, my dad wasn't a wrestling fan, but he knew how much you

(17:18):
know, he knew that I was becoming a huge wrestling fan. And so he took me I bet he paid like six bucks
for two tickets. But I remember the main event was Bruno versus Toro Tanaka. And I was smokes.
Yep. And so at the end, they both start running the ropes. And when they collided, I swear to
God, I still remember it. I mean, the sound that it made. It felt like an earthquake when they

(17:42):
collided. And you know, I'm thinking like, Bruno, is Bruno going to get up? I mean, I have my heart
my throat. Finally, you know, Bruno gets up right at the count of nine, you know, 10, I can stay
down. Bruno wins the match. And you know, I do remember there was a six man I got to walk up to
Edward Carpentier. Oh, the five freshmen. Oh, yeah. And you know, he was I forgot who his two

(18:04):
partners were. It was a best three out of five, six man match. It shook his hand. You could do
that back then. But and then a couple of months later, that was next month, May of 1968, my best
friend who lived next door was it was his birthday. And my mom let me cut school so I could go with him
to the the Hull Huntington Mall on Long Island. And I brought some money with me. Very first,

(18:30):
you walk into the mall is a bookstore. And I used to like Mad Magazine's back in the day,
they'd be doing like 30 cents. And I thought maybe pick up a Mad Magazine. You know, lo and
behold, the first thing I see is wrestling world. And then I see wrestling review. Then I see the
ring wrestling, you know, so PS like five minutes after I walked into the mall, I was broke. Yeah.

(18:53):
Yeah. But when I got home, now the thing was, I opened I think the first article I saw was about
the Inferno's with J.C. Dykes. They wrestle, I guess, in the Carolinas, maybe. And I think like,
I don't know who these guys are. In my mind, all you know, all of wrestling was what I saw on

(19:15):
Saturday night. You know, Bruno and you know, Tanaka and Earl Maynard and Victor Rivera and
Hans Mortier and those guys, all of a sudden, it's like, wow, there's other wrestling. And I mean,
after that, I was completely hooked. Hook, line and sinker. I mean, every spare penny for the next
probably five years went towards the, you know, the purchase of wrestling magazines. And you know,

(19:36):
here we are, what, 55 years later, still talking about it.
Which is just goes to show you the real grip that, you know, those of us who find it,
it almost doesn't matter how you find it, you still get that, the claws in you. And like,
some of us go in and out and some of us are gone for a while, like myself, and come back in.
Well, I mean, I've taken some hiatuses, but you know, and the funny thing was back then,

(19:59):
in 67, 68, it was not fashionable for a 12, 13 year old kid to be a wrestling fan. You saw,
you found that, which of your fellow schoolmates were wrestling fans?
And then you'd walk over to them, like when nobody was around, hey, did you watch
Smash or Sloan on Saturday night? You know, then one of the jocks would start walking towards you

(20:20):
and you have to change the conversation. Hey, how about that fillet of haddock in the cafeteria?
Wasn't that great? So yeah, I mean, you know, it wasn't fashionable. I mean, well, that didn't
happen for years, but I mean, it didn't matter. I was completely hooked.
Which kind of brings us to today, where now, you know, you write articles, you're a podcast host

(20:41):
as well. We'll get into that in a little bit. And the reason you're on tonight is this tremendous
article that you wrote on the subject of this episode, Ivan Koloff. Now we were talking off
air to let the people listening at home know I actually had this episode all buttoned up,
ready to go for January 1st. And then I saw your article and I'm like, is this, is this what they

(21:06):
call serendipity? I don't know. This is very strange, right? So I start reading it. I'm like,
holy smokes like this. First of all, kind of covered it almost better than I would have
or did I should say in my introduction to Ivan Koloff. But more than that, it was such a great
insight from somebody who's, you know, you were in that market, right? You were in that fever.

(21:30):
So I want to first off just ask, what was it about Ivan Koloff that made you want to write this
episode? And was it specifically because you were kind of in, right in that timeframe of where Ivan
Koloff comes in and obviously the, the unthinkable happens. It's just been like this long continuous

(21:51):
journey with the guy. I mean, obviously, so I'm literally 15 and a half years old on January 18th,
1971. I think I read about it if I remember right. And there's, there's an article online from the
New York Times, but I remember reading in the New York daily news, which was delivered to us every
morning. And I, I, there was a, in the sports section, Koloff defeats Bruno for the title.

(22:16):
And I mean, if there was like, you know, a headline that said earthquake kills a hundred thousand,
I think I would have still been sadder for the, for the, you know, the, the Ivan beats Bruno.
I mean, not really, but I mean, it was, it was just like my whole world. Like Bruno was my hero.
Like that was just absolutely devastating. And it was, I mean, this, it goes to show though,

(22:41):
how seriously wrestling was taken back then that it was even covered in the Times. And I think at
the time it set a record for attendance at the garden for like 21,000. And it said, the funny
thing is it said a record date of like 85,000 something like some quick math. Yeah, I'm an
accountant. I mean, it was like $4 and 10 cents average per ticket. So it means like, you know,

(23:03):
there were some five bucks seats and there's some three bucks seats, but now imagine going,
seeing something like that and paying, you know, even then like, yeah, I mean, five bucks is maybe
like what 30, 40 bucks, but still like to see something that historic. So I mean, yeah, of
course, like I hated the guy. I mean, just like Jimmy Vane, who's one of my closest friends in the
world right now, I hated his guts when he turned on a chief Jay Strongbow right around the same time.

(23:29):
You know, he was, he was a baby face came in as a handsome Jimmy or gentlemen, Jimmy Valiant turns
on Strongbow. Now he's handsome. Jimmy Valiant managed by the grand wizard. Like I hated him
too, but you know, then, then he left, you know, Cole applause. He dropped the belt, went, you know,
he wrestled all over the place. I mean, what a career the guy had, I mean, for years and years
and years and always a heel, uh, but always on top, you know, always a main event or always winning

(23:54):
some kind of belt. And, you know, and the story of how later in life he became a, a, a born again
Christian. Uh, he, you know, he actually became a minister. I'm friends with his wife on Facebook.
I thought like, this is like one hell of a life. And I just wanted to, you know, just give my, my
take on it. But, you know, and, and one of the things that, I mean, maybe like it was already

(24:17):
covered by you, but the fact that this man is not in the WWE hall of fame, when he were coming
to the world, the, the first time he was there, he was the most important, the most important
wrestler in the history of professional wrestling. And he, he was, he was the first time he was
ever recorded. What in my opinion is probably the most significant victory in the history of

(24:40):
professional wrestling. You, you, you just thrown the man who was a champion for seven years and
eight months. If that's not historic, I mean, what is seeing that's kind of a, if, if listeners at
the hall of fame actually means what we think it means, the reality is the WWE has a reach of
billions of people across the world. So, I mean, if you, if you're going to induct somebody like

(25:05):
Ivan Kouloff, you know, in the posthumous category, you are now exposing him to literally
billions of people who weren't even alive when he was, when he was on, and like you said,
I think you said it perfectly there. Here's a guy who was always a heel, always on top,

(25:27):
and people hated him and they paid to go see him. And it's wild, you know, you, you mentioned
what tickets would have been back then. And, you know, you hear a, a gate of 80,000,
oh, that doesn't sound like very much, but when you adjust for inflation and you adjust for
what that would mean in today's dollars, like, I mean, we're talking about 80, 80,000 in,

(25:47):
in early 70, that would be off the top of my head, almost five times, you know, that's,
that's a half million dollar house essentially. Yeah. And that, that, and that's before,
you know, this is before the advent of merchandising and this is before the advent of all of these
ancillary things that now are so commonplace in wrestling, but it's just fascinating to me that,

(26:10):
you know, there's this story and like you said, it's a fascinating story. And we're going to get
into it a lot more detail just a minute, but from the wrestling side to the personal side,
his journey is pretty incredible. And again, regardless of what anybody actually thinks
about the validity of the WWE hall of fame, just the simple fact of somebody like that going in

(26:36):
automatically means that he's going to be that much more accessible to that many more people.
And I think that's kind of the bigger picture here that we need to focus on.
Absolutely. And, and Ivan Kooff or Ariel Paris, the man is another story in itself. And just the,
you know, in the course of doing my article, I actually chatted on the phone with Davey O'Hannon,

(27:01):
who was one of my favorite wrestlers back in the, you know, late seventies, early eighties,
when I used to watch on Saturday afternoon and he called him red, even though I mean,
I read McNulty lasted, I think for a couple of years in the mid sixties, but that was his nickname
with the guys was, you know, red. And he said that he was just the most incredible human being.

(27:22):
And Davey would actually drive him around a lot and Davey never charged him for trans.
And I even actually made them stop. And he said, I have to go into the, it was like a souvenir
store, like, I guess like a Cracker Barrel. And he comes out with a gift and he goes,
this is for your father. Cause I guess Davey had mentioned that his father was, was a fan of Ivan.
He goes, what's that for? He goes, you never charged me for trans. He goes,

(27:46):
this is the least I can do for you. Just Davey went on and on about what a great guy. And I mean,
for me, it was a surreal moment. Number one, I'm talking to somebody that I used to do the crap out
of when I was a 20 year old guy, you know, and I like, now I'm talking to him. Now I can say,
I mean, Davey's a good guy. Davey's a friend. And we're talking about another guy that I absolutely
despised as a 15 year old. And we're talking about what a great guy he is. And I'm thinking like,

(28:11):
wrestling is, is there's so much more professional wrestling than what you see on TV. And that's,
that's what I really love about it. And that's what I love to write about.
See, and that kind of leads me to another question that I kind of was, was thinking about is,
cause with yourself and the Dan and Benny show, I think you guys are, you're over what, 140 episodes?

(28:33):
We're over, I think, 150, 157, I think we just did. Okay. So many episodes, many different topics
covered, but how many of these people would have had a connection with Koloff as well? Right? Like
if you look at it that way, you're also, you not only are you, and I'm not saying that your episodes,
you know, were on Koloff for those, that's not what I'm saying, but what I am saying is he probably

(28:53):
would have been a topic of conversation at some point in one of those 157 episodes. So you kind of
factor that into your past with him, then the story you just told, and this kind of all builds into
where you kind of go with the article. Right. That's the correct. And it's, again, we're talking
about, you know, these guys who, you know, you boo and you hate them and you want to throw things

(29:18):
at them. You probably don't want to meet them in person, but then you hear about what a nice guy
they are after it, after it's all said and done. I want to get into that, but I think, you know,
I want to get into that, but, you know, one of the, one of the lines that you had in your article was
just kind of referencing how difficult it is sometimes picking up the pieces of somebody's

(29:39):
life professionally speaking, when they go through many name changes and, you know, you just mentioned
the Red McNulty name. When you were researching the article, how, how did you find going through
the archives of the many names of Ivan Koloff? Well, you know, he kind of kept it simple because
he started out, I think, and here's the problem with being, you know, the, the major league baseball,

(30:06):
I'm a huge baseball fan. I can look up any player who, you know, Cap Anson who played for the, you
know, the Chicago Cubs in the 1890s. And I can, you know, I can tell you in three seconds, how many
hits he got or how many, you know, how many RBIs or how many home runs. You can't really do that with
professional wrestling. The record keeping was very faulty. So there's one database that has an Ivan

(30:27):
Zhukov wrestling Bruno, I think in 1963, but then on another database, you don't see it. I try to
use wrestlingdata.com. They show his first match in 1965, I think November as Oriol Paris, which is
a real name, against Bruno in Pittsburgh. And then in January of 66, he wrestled Smasher Sloan, the

(30:53):
brook from Butte, on, on watching DC TV, you know, from WWF, as Red McNulty. And then that was his
one and only appearance there. And then he migrated to Western Canada. And for the next, I guess,
maybe two years wrestled as McNulty, kind of, you know, mid Carter did, you know, experience a mild

(31:18):
success, nothing special. But it's when he, in January of 68, he showed up in Montreal as the
International Wrestling Association, Johnny Rougeau's promotion. And that's when he first showed up as
Ivan Koloff. And that was the name that he kept for the rest of his career. And, you know, we talked
about him being, you know, even though he was only a three week champion, which I think was a shame

(31:40):
in the WWF, I think they could have gotten a lot more out of him. You know, they could have given
him a superstar gram kind of run before they, you know, they transitioned to Pedro. I don't think it
would have done them any harm. I think actually would have done them a lot of good, but little
known fact though, he, he appeared in the IWA in January on August the 12th, he beat some guy named

(32:02):
Mad Dog Gresham, who was another legend. Yeah, some guy. Some guy, some Gironi. For the, their
international heavyweight championship, the IWA, which was considered at that time, you know, a
world championship. So now he's, you know, WWF champion, IWA champion. And here's like another
one in, on June 18th, 1977. So he's wrestling in Florida, the Eddie Graham CWF Championship,

(32:28):
wrestling in Florida. He defeats, he goes out to Indianapolis, defeats Dick De Bruyzer, another
minor legend, right? And wins the WWA World Heavyweight Championship, which he wrestles in
Florida, but once a month for the next five months, he makes the trip to Indianapolis

(32:50):
to defend the championship. And then also once a month goes to the, earlier in the month goes to
the Keel Auditorium and wrestles their monthly cards. So this guy is working a heavy duty
territory in Florida because in Florida they wrestle seven nights a week, but he made those
shots every month. I think like, man, this guy is in demand. And I, I have another stat. I can read

(33:11):
it later on. I mean, the guy was routinely wrestling between 250 and 290 matches a year.
But I mean, so now unbelievable considering what they do nowadays, right? I think Roman Reigns has
wrestled 11 times this year. You know, Koaw did that in two weeks, but I mean, so now you have,

(33:34):
the guy has won three different world championships. And then he won the WWC,
the Puerto Rican Championship in 1989 when he was 47. And I mean, at the time that was also
considered a world. So here's a guy who's won the equivalent of four different world championships
and you're not in the hall of fame. That's crazy. Well, not only that, you know, just strictly

(33:59):
speaking, championships, but you look at some of the names that he wrestled over that period of
time, right? You're talking to like, you know, you've mentioned several, whether it's, you know,
the Vichans or Carpagnes had some wars with him. Dick the Bruiser had matches with him.
Wipper Billy Watson, another Canadian legend had a ton of matches with him. Then you look at the
Rouge Eaux out East, you know, it's incredible. And then we're not even talking about, you know,

(34:26):
down in the States, you know, obviously Bruteau, Pedro matches like that, but it's wild to me that,
you know, the career portfolio isn't just about championships. It's not also just about high
profile matches. And how many sellouts he had, I can't remember if in your article it had how

(34:48):
many sellouts that he had in Madison Square gardens or not. I don't know if you have that figure
off the top. I think that was actually in, cause Evan, Evan Ginsburg did an article about him.
I think he said like, he sold out like all 13 times he made a vented. That's right. So, you know,
and said the all time gate record, which eventually was broken. Every record is meant to be broken,

(35:10):
obviously, but I mean, you're looking at a record that stood for, what was it, about 20 years before
they finally broke that record. So, you know, you add all this up and then not only the places he
was, not only the championships he won, but the longevity of his career. And I mean, here's a guy
who wrestled for, for God's sakes, he wrestled in ECW as well. Like think about that one for a second.

(35:35):
Right. It's absolutely incredible. And, you know, it's a real shame that people nowadays, if they
don't even know him for the San Martino streak or the end of the streak, then, you know, like I'm

(35:55):
almost speechless at this point. It's like, what more do you want to like kind of vault somebody
into that position? And one of my measures of how great somebody is, is how much in demand they are.
And I mean, I'll read this. Yes, very true. So from 1977 to 1987, I'm going to read you how many,
and this is from the wrestlingdata.com. And even I, I suspect that these totals are actually

(36:21):
understated because, you know, record keeping wasn't a fine science yet, but it's 77. He wrestled
that 252 times 78, 283, 79, 280, 1980, 275, 1981, 285, 1982, 264, 1983, 282, and then you got 269,

(36:47):
287, 236, and in 1987, he wrestled 220 times. So, I mean, you're, you know, from 84 through 87,
you talk about a guy who's in his, you know, early to mid forties, and he's, he's, I mean,
he's still in huge demand. Well, not only demand too, but he's, he's making stars because you got

(37:10):
to figure that's like, he makes Nikita right then too. So it's wild, like in the twilight of his
career, you know, I've put that in quotation marks, but you, it's wild to me, right? And here's a guy
just, you know, from a small town in Canada, and then here you go, right? He's just off to the races

(37:31):
and yeah, it's wild. It's absolutely incredible. As I said, my article, he went from red as a
McNulty to red as, you know, an evil Russian. And he just, I mean, the guy, I mean, I'll go back to
my days as a WWF fan. You had guys like Baron Secluna, you had Dominic D'Nucci, guys like that,

(37:53):
who homesteaded, I'll call it, where they didn't really bounce around. And late in their career,
in the late seventies and early eighties, they became more of an enhancement talent. You know,
at that point, they were putting everybody over. And I mean, you know, again, they're in early
fifties or passing the torch. That all makes sense. But Koloff never really, he never really,

(38:13):
I mean, maybe he slid down on the court a little bit, but he still was a main eventer even in his
mid forties. He was significant. He was winning, you know, six man titles. He's winning, you know,
the NWA title with Cronodal and, you know, and the six man with Khrushchev, I guess,
Khrushchev, D'Arceau, Barry D'Arceau. I mean, he's still winning significant titles.

(38:39):
Just, and if you watch his work, you know, with Jim Crockett in the mid to late eighties,
I didn't slow down a beat. I mean, he still was, you know, in superb shape and such a great worker.
Wait, and again, that kind of feeds into this whole, I don't know if we're building a case or

(39:00):
what we're doing here. Maybe we're building a case for, you know, inclusion in the Hall of Fame, but
more so a case for people to, you know, kind of take notice of his career. And, you know, we've
been talking a lot about, and actually I should stop and go back to something you just said, is
that, you know, you look at a lot of these guys who were homesteaders, which not always a bad

(39:22):
thing either, right? But here's a guy, Ivan, who was all over the map and again, was the main event
star everywhere he went. And the numbers of matches that you just illustrated is pretty
remarkable, especially when you're getting into the 1980s and he's still doing 200 plus matches
a year. It's pretty incredible. One thing that, you know, I keep coming back to, and it's hard not to,

(39:49):
is just, it's that, I guess maybe it's the aura of the Madison Square Gardens and what he meant to
that era of those shows in the Madison Square Gardens. Can you take me back? I know we're kind
of backtracking a little bit, but I really want to give people like a real tangible taste of it,

(40:09):
if you will. What was it like energy-wise? What was it like anticipation-wise? What was it like
being a fan at the gardens, going to those shows from, you know, let's say the late 60s into the
mid to late 70s? It's the polar opposite. And I, because I do a lot of podcasts and I try to keep

(40:32):
up with the current product and, you know, for an old timer like me and growing up with the wrestling
that I grew up with, sometimes it's painful. And I feel like, you know, and Seth Rollins is a very
talented guy, but when he, you know, the way he dresses like Liberace and, you know, the whole
crowd cheering along and, I mean, they're all having a great time. And I think like, you know,

(40:53):
they are being entertained. And, you know, I guess that's great if that's what you want, but, you
know, when you went to a wrestling card at Madison Square Garden, you didn't have that. You were
nervous because especially if you were a Bruno fan and he was wrestling, I don't know, let's say
George Steele, for example, who was in his nemesis for years, you went there legitimately

(41:15):
thinking that, oh my God, like, can Bruno defeat this guy? I mean, he's done so many bad things.
And I mean, it's amazing how, I mean, the old Vince Senior, the old WWWF, they had this formula.
They brought in a heel from a different territory. You know, they, a lot of times like they brought
in Bob Orton Senior, they renamed him Rocky Fitzpatrick. And because, you know, there's no

(41:38):
social media, nobody knows, right? And so he starts beating up the, you know, having the squash
matches. Then he'll beat like, usually the litmus test was Arnold Scolin because he was Bruno's
manager. So he had to like either attack Scolin or beat like Antonio Pugliese, who was Bruno's

(41:58):
quote unquote cousin. And once he did that, now you're ready for Bruno. And the buildup was
absolutely incredible. You know, it took a couple of months. You know, now you have a match at the
Garden with Bruno, which by now has had so much hype that, you know, it's a sellout. And a lot of
these challengers were so formidable, like a Tanaka, to me was, Tanaka was scary. You know,

(42:21):
Killer Kowalski was scary. And you know, you went to these matches, you weren't going to be
entertained. Nobody sang. You know, there was no, there was no entrance music. All of a sudden,
you were sitting down and you heard, you know, you heard murmuring. And then it got louder and
louder. And it was Bruno, you know, walking down the aisle. And it just got, I mean, to the point

(42:46):
where, you know, I thought the, you know, the only louder pop I ever heard was, I mean, I'll relate
how old I am. So Thanksgiving day in 1974, I went to see Elton John play at Madison Square Garden.
Holy moly. Okay. But it gets better. So the, the, the host, the MC was a guy named Murray Kaufman,

(43:08):
who was a disc jockey in New York. His name was Murray the K. So Murray the K says, well, we have
a special surprise guest. And they go, ah, who could that be? You know, maybe somebody. And
it was John Lennon. And I thought the place was going to explode. And I mean, they sang,

(43:35):
the thing was the Preston neighbor did it, whatever gets you through the night. Wow. Which
became a huge number one hit. But I mean, that was the only thing that I can compare. Like when,
when, you know, the crowd saw Bruno was that, that one, that one night at Madison Square Garden. But,
but people were going to see Bruno was Bruno wasn't just like, I mean, people go to see Seth
Rollins. They like Seth Rollins, you know, people want to see Bruno because they loved Bruno. They

(44:00):
adored Bruno. They had pictures of Bruno, you know, on there, you know, you're talking about a
largely Italian population in New York in the, you know, in the sixties. You know, people joke that
they had pictures of the Pope, Jesus Christ and Bruno San Martino about their fireplace. No, but
it's serious. I mean, that's how serious it was. And, you know, Bruno, he made the remark many,

(44:25):
many times that after, after Koloff pinned him, that he thought he, he thought he had sustained
hearing damage because he couldn't, it was so quiet. The crowd was so quiet. They were shocked.
They were absolutely shocked that Bruno had lost it. That no, I couldn't have seen that. And then

(44:45):
Bruno said after a while, he heard people crying. And I mean, like, and then as he left, people were
saying, we love you, Bruno. So it was just, I mean, the, the whole makeup of the crowd and the, and
the whole gamut of emotions back then was the polar opposite. But, you know, unfortunately

(45:06):
wrestling has become a very, I call it an, you know, impersonal sport because, you know, I live in
Tampa. I live outside of Tampa. If I'm lucky, the WW comes here maybe twice a year, but, you know,
as a fan growing up in the seventies, once I got my driver's license, you know, I lived about 15
minutes from the Nashville Coliseum. They had a card every month. I can go to the garden every
month. They had, you know, a spot show. So, I mean, I could go to see wrestling 30, 40 times a year.

(45:32):
Now I can maybe see it twice. And it's, it's just not the same. I think the fact that you could go
so often, you know, you felt like you were part of it and you don't feel that way anymore.
Well, not only that, but that, and this is kind of an interesting side note, I guess,
but it almost seems like nowadays it's the WWE is built around the WWE. It's not built around a

(45:55):
Bruno or it's not built around a Hulk Hogan or it's not built like there's, there's really no star
that transcends the company. Like it used to be back then, like a Piper or anybody, right.
We've seemed to have lost that over the, over the years, you know, even, even in the nineties,
you had the, you know, the rock or Austin or whoever. We really, we don't have that,

(46:17):
that person anymore. Maybe it is because you don't get the 40 dates anymore. So it's hard to kind of
build that connection. And then, you know, you don't run into the wrestlers at the bar anymore.
You don't run into the wrestlers at the mall anymore. You know, they're, they're in your town
and then they're gone. You know, you can't wait until, you know, you could actually wait until
Bruno left the garden and he would sign autographs. That's what I mean. You know, he didn't set up a

(46:42):
table and say, okay, we're going to do a quick meet and greet. No, you know, everybody's going
to pay 20 bucks. I mean, he just signed for everybody. Yeah. Also leave your credit card
because he had a little imprint there in his, in his briefcase, you know.
Yeah. So I think that that, that might be a big part of it too is just, it's that,
that connectivity. Right. So when you re and you, you big, you see it big time when you look at the

(47:08):
old tapes, right. Of just, you know, people use the term over, but it's not, there was a level of
connection that fans had with the wrestlers back in that day with the ones they loved and sure with
the ones they hated because, you know, for as much as people would go to pay to see someone like,

(47:28):
like a brutal, or they would pay to see someone like a Pedro or pay to see someone like Hogan,
they were also paid to see that heel get his ass kicked. You know what I mean?
And I'm glad you said it because I know Evan's going to be a part of the show, but the movie
350 days, which I've seen a couple of times, there's a gentleman, not very well known. His

(47:50):
name is Howard Jerome. And I think he wrestled actually as a German heel, but he said something
that has, that has resonated with me that I'll never forget. He said, there's a fundamental
longing in the human heart to see good triumph over evil. And I think, I mean, and that was the
premise of professional wrestling for years and years and years that, you know, you know, the

(48:14):
baby face gets attacked and, you know, or Bruno got attacked and he, you know, they go to the garden
and maybe Bruno loses by DQ. So they're going to, you know, they're going to do it again next month
and that's another sellout. And maybe if it's really good, at least to a third match, now you
have three sellouts at Madison Square Garden and you move to the next heel. But it was always that

(48:34):
ultimate, you know, good versus evil and eventually good one, even though it might've taken a little
bit of time, but nowadays those lines are completely blurred.
Yeah, which again, it's, that's a big thing that we've lost over the years. You know, everybody
loves their realism, I guess, but there's, there's still a way to do it and have those lines.

(48:58):
In my opinion, the formula is not, it's not that complicated if you really boil it down, but you
need to have people who, who need the perspicacity to actually pull it off, right? You need somebody
who wants to be like, I'm not saying be like Bruno, but have to carry themselves like Bruno.

(49:18):
And we really don't have a whole lot of people like that nowadays. I know we're going on a whole
tension about new stuff. Maybe we'll get back to, to Koloff, but you know, that kind of feeds into
it too, because without a heel like Koloff and somebody who takes themselves seriously as a heel,
you can't have that all star baby face. So, I mean, no, I mean, that's the, he's the protagonist,

(49:41):
you know, I mean, or the antagonist rather. I mean, Bruno doesn't sell out the garden unless
he has a Koloff or a Tanaka or a monsoon back in the day, you know, to, to, you know, have,
have the match with. So yeah, I mean, it was very important. I mean, who played it better than Koloff?
And he, he, he never, you know, he never faltered just consistently for, you know, two decades

(50:05):
playing evil, evil Russian heel. So as we step out of your fandom side and into the,
we'll say the writing side, the, the historical side, were you surprised at all to learn just how
nice of a guy Koloff was outside the ring? Yeah, you always, that's to me the most satisfying part

(50:29):
of writing a story. And I'll give another example. I had Mike Secluna, the son of the great Baron
Mikhail Secluna on the podcast, because I did want to write a story about his dad. And he was
one of my, he was one of the few heels that I actually liked, you know, back in the day.
Just, there was just something so intriguing about him, just the way he carried himself with that,

(50:50):
that robe with the Maltese cross and he was so big and had that scowl and, you know, just,
you know, always had the roll of quarters in his pocket or dimes. I always justified it. I said,
well, you know, that's in case some, one of the fans after the matches need to do their laundry
or make a phone call. He just has a handicap. He's a good guy, you know, but to hear his son

(51:15):
talk about this man that, a side of him that we never saw, that, you know, that he was a good dad,
that he would always try to be there, that he was on there. I mean, back then those guys,
I mean, they were on the road, you know, 300 days a year, but that when he was home,
he was completely devoted to his family. And, you know, those guys had a very hard life back then,

(51:36):
but, you know, and the same thing, you know, Davey O'Hannon, I talked to him about that,
Baron Secluna, and he said, he used to babysit Davey's kids. I mean, like, this is the guy who
was choking people out and, you know, hitting them with can openers and stuff like that. But,
you know, he's like playing in the backyard with his three little kids.
Probably not, but babysitting your kids. Right. But he said, like, he thought the absolute world

(52:01):
of, you know, he called him Mike. And he got him, Davey was in the union, I guess, with the
newspapers, and he got a lot of those guys. He got Johnny Rods, S.D. Jones, Secluna, Danucci,
got them all jobs with the, I guess, with the New York Times, where they made some decent money.
It's very alarming that back then, those guys did not make a lot of money. The ones before,

(52:26):
you know, Vince Jr., they didn't make a lot of money. They, you know, they went from, you know,
from town to town. But, I mean, think of the wear and tear. Imagine being away from your family on
Christmas or New Year's or Thanksgiving, you know, or your kid's birthday or, you know,
graduation or whatever. But that's the life that they lived in. And they were, you know,

(52:48):
that's the life that they lived in. I always say that there was no PTO in professional wrestling
back in the 70s. You know, you broke your finger, you know, you could wrestle tomorrow and get paid,
or, you know, don't wrestle and don't get paid. And these guys had bills to pay. It was a very
tough life. But that was, I mean, what I love the most about doing the research and the writing is

(53:11):
learning about the, you know, the behind the real person and a lot of it, like the camaraderie
that these guys had with each other. That it's very, very heartwarming.
Yeah. And again, it's not something that you would know unless you were in the know back in the day.
Right now you can read about it online. And it's, again, we're talking about things that have been

(53:33):
lost, you know, in later generations. But, you know, it is interesting. I know for myself,
personally, when you're researching these individuals and, you know, through the years,
yeah, I kind of heard that cool off, you know, in real life was a good guy, but I didn't realize how
good of a guy he was. Right. And then you start to learn about how he really turned his life around,

(53:56):
you know, got out of the drugs, got into the party and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, he had
his turn to religion after it's all said and done. And then ends up starting a ministry as well,
I believe. Yes. So here's a guy who, again, you wouldn't think that this hated heel who, you know,

(54:21):
broke Madison Square Garden's heart would later in life run a ministry. It's pretty incredible.
Yeah. And, you know, his wife told me that Bruno was actually his hero. And Bruno was instrumental
in bringing him into the WWF. Because I guess, you know, when he first saw, when he first wrestled

(54:41):
Bruno in Pittsburgh, he made enough of an impression. But that's the one thing people
don't know about Bruno. Bruno brought a lot of these guys in. He brought in Tora Tanaka, he saw
him in Hawaii. He brought in George Steele. He brought in, you know, he brought all these guys in.
He brought in Koloff. And Renee, his wife, Koloff's, Ivan's widow, said that when he would

(55:04):
talk on the phone with Bruno, he behaved like a 12 year old child. And it's funny when she told me
that because I remember that when I, you know, I spoke to Bruno on the phone for the first time,
I had a, I wrote a tribute about Bruno on Facebook. And one of my good friends, his name is Mike
Miggott, actually lives in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, and did some printing work for Bruno, and became

(55:29):
good friends with Bruno as a result of it. And he wrote, he goes, I'm taking Bruno out to dinner
for his birthday tomorrow. Would you mind if I read him your tribute? Is it what I mind? Are you
kidding me? And yeah. And then he goes, well, don't be surprised if Bruno calls you. And I said,
yeah, whatever. Right? Like, sure. You know, and I'll probably see Elvis at Burger King tomorrow,

(55:51):
too. And sure enough, and I worked at a car dealership at the time, you know, as a finance
manager, and you can get like crazy busy in that kind of job. As luck would have it, six o'clock,
which I'm normally, I would normally be swamped. Phone rings. My friend, Mike, he goes, there's
somebody that wants to talk to you. And I'm thinking like, this is going to be a rib. There's going
to be somebody who sounds like Bruno. And, but it was, I mean, Bruno's voice was unmistakable. And

(56:16):
he, the, what he said to me was, Benny, where did you learn to write those beautiful words?
Wow. And I said, Bruno, I said, when you write from the heart, it's easy. And I mean, I became
a 12 year old. It was 1968 all over again for me. And this was like 2016, 2017. And, you know,

(56:37):
and I chatted with him for about 10 minutes. And about a week later, Mike called me and said,
you know, Bruno's planning a big get together, Christmas week at his Rico's, which was a
restaurant in Pittsburgh. And he said, he wants to know if you'd like to attend. It's like,
would I like to attend? Like, are you kidding me? Yeah. Within a half an hour, I had my plane ticket

(57:01):
bought. I had my hotel room reserved. I had a rent, no, I didn't rent the car. I had an Uber,
but I, I, and I arranged for the PTO at work. And I mean, it was one of the best nights in my entire
life. That's absolutely incredible. Like, what do you say to that? Right. Would you like to go?
Yeah. Well, let me, let me think about that for a minute. Yeah. Okay. Let me, let me just clear my

(57:23):
calendar real quickly here. But I'm sitting, I mean, this is a man that I idolized growing up
and here I am. I guess I would have been at the time, 61, 62, talking to Bruno about each of our
moms and like what they're, you know, what Italian dish they cook the best. This is what we're,

(57:43):
we're not talking about Toro Tanaka and Kowalski. Hey, Bruno, did your mom make Braggiole? Oh yeah.
But she really made, you know, the boy, her ziti was good. This is the conversation we're having.
Wow. Well, that's, that's incredible. I couldn't even put myself in those shoes.
I know it was, I had to pinch myself a hundred times over.

(58:03):
Which is, and again, like how, how wild is it that, you know, you go, you have that experience
with Bruno, you know, like you said, your Facebook friends with, with, with Kuloff's widow, like
what a small world this whole wrestling thing is sometimes, eh? And the funny thing is now as a

(58:24):
result of that, you know, I, I, about six months later, I wrote the story about it, about my
experience with Bruno. They had called it Bruno's Last Christmas. And that was my first story for
pro wrestling stories. And no way I didn't realize that. Yes. Yes. And I mean, I think I was, was my,
I think my 34th, but yeah. But as a result of that, I got invited to be on a podcast,

(58:53):
you know, it was called wrestling with the future. And as a result of my appearance,
I guess they liked me enough. Would you like to be a semi-regular? I said, I mean, you know,
I get to talk about wrestling once a week. Yeah. Count me in. And so I did that for a bit. And then
Dan Sebastiano, who was also on the show and I, because the, the host of the show wanted to get

(59:13):
more into non-wrestling stuff. Yeah. Conspiracy theory, things like that. And we thought, you know
what? We're, we're wrestling guys. So we decided to spin off on our own and, you know, that's what
we've done for the last three years, but it was all because of that night at Rico's restaurant.
If I didn't, if I didn't have that night, I don't think any of this ever would have happened.
That's unbelievable. Unbelievable. We're just one, one simple thing like that just changes

(59:38):
an entire trajectory. Because I posted a tribute to Bruno on Facebook. Yeah.
Wow. That's, you blew my mind. What can I say? That's unbelievable. Wow.
What do you say to that? I mean, the, and I'm thinking like, geez, like,
I mean, all of this has happened and Bruno passed away in 2018. 2018. Yeah. So I mean, all of this

(01:00:08):
has happened in the last five years. I've been on like probably a total of 200 podcasts, you know,
counting, you know, besides mine, well, about another 50, not counting mine. You know, I've
written 34 stories and I've made like, if you look at my cell phone, I mean, I have like all these
wrestler's numbers in there and I can actually call these guys and it'll talk to me. Like, you

(01:00:29):
know, they won't tell me to piss off. It's like, Hey, Benny, how you doing? And, you know, I can
even text Ken Patera about hookers and how great is that? But I mean, it's just, I tell people,
like, you know, if I wasn't so old, I keep pinching myself. Nowadays, like a risk of clotting. So I
don't do that very often, but it's just, I mean, my sister, she goes, the way you loved wrestling

(01:00:55):
and what's happening to you now is like, it's like a dream come true. Yeah. It's just, it's wild.
The doors that get open sometimes just doing a simple story, not a simple story, but you know
what I mean, right? You do a little bit of leg work and all of a sudden you, you're introduced
to this person and now you're following this story and now you're formulating, now you're 34

(01:01:17):
articles in, like he said, and 250, well, that'd be 251 podcast episodes, I suppose by the time
this one comes out, but yeah, just what a wild ride, hey? Oh yeah. And I mean, another example,
Jimmy Valiant. So, I mean, again, I hated Jimmy Valiant and I had him on the, we've had him on
the podcast a couple of times, but I, you know, I made the trip to his camp, BWC, Boogie's Camp,

(01:01:41):
his camp, BWC, Boogie's Wrestling Camp, which I am the commissioner now, but you know, very first
thing, you know, I shook his hand, hey Jimmy, we had already done the podcast, so he knew who I was.
I said, you know, hey Jimmy, I'm Benny. I said, you know, by the way, I really hated you when I
was a kid. It was the first thing I said to him and he laughed. I said, when you turn on Strongwell,

(01:02:03):
I hated you. I called you every name in the book and for once, like I didn't get in trouble because
my mom wasn't in the kitchen, like nearby, you know, I got away with it. And I'm like, he just
started laughing, but you know, like I have that kind of, it's just, and all of these people are
just the salt of the earth. They're just people and they're so grateful that people still remember

(01:02:24):
them. And that's, you know, that's what we're really trying to do here too, right, is to
remember their stories properly and put it in the proper context and really, you know, give fans a
chance to one, rediscover the individual, but to learn about them in a new light, you know, presented

(01:02:45):
factually, presented properly without a bunch of, you know, innuendo, if you will. And that's really,
you know, right. That's always been my approach with this program. And it really helps when,
you know, I could talk to people like yourself who, like again, that the article that you wrote on
Koloff is just unbelievable. And there is going to be a link to that article in today's show notes.

(01:03:06):
So when you listen to this episode, folks, very simply, you check in the show notes, there's going
to be a link to the article as well as a link to the Dan and Benny show as well. So I can't thank
you enough for ruining my podcast schedule, but more than that, I'm so glad that you put this thing
out and I was actually able to have this conversation with you to get this out there. Because this,

(01:03:30):
like I said, what a serendipitous thing this all was. Yeah, no, it's been a pleasure. And
it's, I mean, we, I think until my dying breath, I will never stop enjoying chatting about wrestling
with anybody. It's just, you know, it's just such a pleasurable thing, especially, you know,
the wrestling that I grew up loving. Now, before, because I don't want to take up too much of your

(01:03:54):
time tonight. Before I let you go, is there anything that we didn't cover about Koloff that
you want to get into before I let you go? No, I mean, just, I really wanted, I had written it down
that, you know, the fact that he was working in Florida, but then he's the reigning WWA champion,
which is a whole, whole different territory. You know, Florida's Graham, WWA in India is bruiser,

(01:04:16):
and then he's wrestling for much Nick Sam much Nick once, once a month. You could do that back
then. I mean, we, we had Ken Patera on the podcast and one of Patera's claims to fame was in the span
of four days, he won the intercontinental championship from Pat Patterson. And then within
four days, he beats, I think it was Kevin Von Erich for the NWA Missouri heavyweight championship.

(01:04:40):
I mean, both of those titles back then, I mean, I see titles of prop now, but back then, you know,
and you know, at that time, it was a legitimate title was really like the, you know, the precursor
to the world heavyweight championship. And the NWA Missouri title was same thing. I mean, if you look
at the, you know, the men who won that title, it's a hall of fame right there. And you got

(01:05:01):
Harley race, you got Von Erich. I mean, you got backland, you got Patera Briscoe, anybody who was
anybody won that championship. So I mean, this guy is winning titles in two different promotions,
four days apart. It'd be like MJ, MJF, like traveling to going on Smackdown and like,
you know, winning the US championship. It's like, you're not going to see that.

(01:05:26):
I think some of us would have maybe rather see him on that show, but I think that be, it might
be a whole different conversation. What kind of ratings would they get if something like that
happened? And that's a whole other, I mean, that's a whole different podcast is, you know,
the ratings, you know, the ratings now versus the ratings, you know, 25 years ago, and then the

(01:05:48):
ratings made like 50 years ago. Oh, absolutely. That's why I, this is a tangent again, but you
know, I always get a chuckle when you see on, you know, the whatever Facebook group nowadays, oh,
oh, the, the we're at, we're in another wrestling boom. It's like, you guys don't know what you're
talking about. You don't, you have no idea. No, no. I mean, and I don't think anybody's done

(01:06:10):
the analysis. I wonder if Jim Cornette would do it, but if you took, you know, back in the day when
it's 25, 30 territories, I mean, you think each one of them had their own TV show, right? Because
that's how you, you know, that was the formula you did. You know, you did your interviews and
your squash matches on TV and that built up to whatever show you had. But I mean, if you took

(01:06:32):
30 of these shows around the country every week, I guarantee you like the combined viewership
was like multiple times more than are watching on a Monday or a Friday night.
I think they might've got that in, in Memphis alone, to be honest with you.
So, I mean, like, I almost want to do a story is like, where did all the wrestling fans go? I mean,

(01:06:53):
even now, I mean, if, if smackdown is getting 2.2 million and raw is getting like a million and a
half, well, you, you know, that the same million and a two point million and a half that watch raw
on Monday night are probably watching smackdown. So, I mean, they're not, you know, it's not
unduplicated. So, I mean, let's just say maybe two and a half million they have. Well, I mean,

(01:07:14):
what, like, what were the, the, the, the, the ratings for a Saturday night live back in the
eighties with Hulk and I will have 15 million people. Maybe for the, for the main offense.
Yeah. It's about that. And I think that one, the one with Andre, was it not 20? I want to say,
I mean, where did those millions? I mean, even the Monday night wars, you know, when, when like,

(01:07:36):
maybe raw was, you know, 7 million and, and Monday night trail was another 6 million. Yeah. Like
between 10 and 15 million people watching wrestling on a Monday night. Where did they all go?
Yeah. AEW has like that little niche, but like, you know, maybe, you know, three quarters of a
million. So maybe combined, you have 3 million people watching wrestling as opposed to, you know,

(01:08:00):
13, 14 million in the late nineties. Like where, where does people go? They moved on. It's sad.
Well, it is. And it's, you know, we joke that it's not like it used to be, but it's not like
it used to be not even close. And that, and like, even friends, you know, my friends, we will talk
about it. Like, you know, how it used to be that you would anticipate, you know, watching, like a

(01:08:26):
Monday night raw, or you'd anticipate watching the pay per view because you wanted to see,
not even the show, but you wanted to see one person or you want to see one match specifically
or, you know, there was something you had to see. Now it's like, yeah, I remember watching like when
originally did the crow gimmick and they didn't speak for about a year.

(01:08:48):
You know, I would watch every, you know, every Monday night just to see what he would do.
Cause they kind of built upon it. That was the thing you built upon. You built your storylines
where now, you know, somebody fights at, you know, eight 15, and then they have their blow up match
at 10 30. Like the entire story storyline was consummated in two and a half hours. There's no

(01:09:12):
bill to it. Yes. Yeah. And now it's, yeah, it's definitely not like that. Now it's more of a
talking. Now it's just, now it's a single long and it's an entertainment. Yeah. It's the single
longest app description. Yeah. All right. So before I let you go for the night, just real quick,

(01:09:36):
do you want to let everybody know where they can find you? Your social media and all that kind of
stuff? Yeah. I'm just, I'm just Benny Scala, the player on a long story behind that on Facebook,
but I write for pro wrestling stories. Dan and Benny in the ring is found on the Monty and the
Faro YouTube channel. It's also on any audio podcast platform, but I recently branched out

(01:10:00):
a little bit. So now I've, I've done about five episodes of a true crime podcast,
which I'm a huge fan of true crime. Oh, very cool. Yeah. I've done episodes on Charles Manson,
Albert DeSalvo, the guy, Ronald DeFeo, remember the Amityville Harz by way before your time, but

(01:10:20):
guy went home from a night of drinking and killed his whole family of six. And then somebody bought
the house and supposedly there's like eerie goings on after that. But yeah. And then the last,
actually my last episode was on Tammy Sitch, Sonny. Oh yes. There's a wrestling tie. She's a
criminal in her own right now. So yeah, absolutely. And then my next one's going to be on Whitey

(01:10:43):
Bolger, who, you know, was the mob boss in Boston, the Irish, you know, the Irish organized crime for
many, many years. So got that. And then recently started a baseball podcast called the Wine Dry
Baseball Podcast. And then we do a show called, this is the one I really, really enjoy. It's called
The 30 on Thursday nights live on the Monty and the Faro channel. Mike Monty is the moderator.

(01:11:06):
I'm one of four panelists and he'll throw out like a random current wrestling topic.
And we have 90 seconds to give our take and then we get, you know, he's the judge. So we get points
on our takes and we have no idea what's coming. And I mean, it's not easy to just like, you know,
all of a sudden, geez, I gotta, I gotta go for 90 minutes, 90 seconds on this. It's not an easy

(01:11:29):
thing to do, but I really love it. I'm, I'm the current reigning champion. I've won, I've won four
out of 12 shows. So so far so good. But yeah, that's, that's pretty much it. So I'm a busy guy. I
I like being busy. Apparently so. And like I said earlier in the episode, all the links to,
all the places where you can find Betty will be available in the show notes of today's episode.

(01:11:51):
Betty, I can't thank you enough for your time tonight, man. This, this was a real treat for me.
Oh, it's been my pleasure. It's very, very enjoyable.
Before we get into the next segment of the program, my incredible interview and discussion with Evan
Ginsburg, I'm going to play some more classic Ivan Koloff audio. Now during the course of my
conversation with Benny, and you're in here a little bit more of it during my conversation with

(01:12:15):
Evan, we discuss the, we'll say legitimacy of the conversation with Benny. And I'm going to
discuss the, we'll say legitimacy of the WWE hall of fame and our thoughts on that subject
matter in particular. But I found some interesting audio of what Ivan Koloff thought about

(01:12:41):
what he wanted in terms of being included in the WWE hall of fame. So I'm going to play this classic
audio because I think it's really going to dovetail nicely into my conversation with Evan
Ginsburg. And on the other side of that incredible Ivan Koloff audio, good friend of the show,

(01:13:01):
Evan Ginsburg.
Kidding, Larry. I was going to say that,
that the beach is probably a failure or a challenge even more, you know. But I think probably he's
holding out for another time, but maybe where the situation may be where I wrestled more,

(01:13:28):
you know, California, I wrestled a bit out there, but not a lot. So maybe he's waiting for
a different location or something. So if it happens after, I guess the legs got to go on. So
I don't, I'm not going to cry over anything like that. Just, it was a little disappointing
because after wrestling over 50 years and still being part of being around it, I end up, you know,

(01:13:53):
really love to have a little bit of the, you know, rarities that may be involved and maybe
the autograph sessions would be involved with WWE. And, but if that's not to be at this time,
the fans are still going to get some shots anyway. So, but maybe later on, I hope it'll work out.

(01:14:17):
You would think that they would want the most legendary villain possibly in their history,
the guy who beat Bruno San Martino after seven years in the Hall of Fame, right?
Well, you'd think so. Yeah. I think that, that's what was, yeah. Look, would you look at it that
way? Like I was actually the third person to ever have the belt, you know, to get it from someone

(01:14:40):
like a legend like Bruno. Yeah. The significance of it to me is real, you know, to the people that
they would think that, man, what's this guy even alive today? He must be, you know, this is not
committed route, just Bruno, myself and a few others that still alive from that era, you know.

(01:15:01):
So, but hopefully it'll happen one day here and not too long in the future. Cause, you know,
I would like to be still in good enough health to be able to participate, doing some things after.
But I'm going to keep my fingers crossed here and I know just go on with life and

(01:15:24):
probably Hollywood's going to call me anyway any minute now or I'll win a big sweet stare or something,
you know. Okay. Thanks for having me on. Yours truly was the associate producer of the wrestler
with Mickey Rourke. I appeared in the film and acted with him briefly as well. Also the associate
producer on 350 days starring Brett Hart, Greg Valentine, Tito Santana, Three Dozen Legends.

(01:15:51):
The producer of wrestling then and now, which is also available and stars Killer Kowalski,
Don Dacron, Death Arnold, Nikolai Bolkov and many others. The senior editor of Pro Wrestling Stories
and I have been following wrestling for 50 plus years, attending wrestling pretty much the same

(01:16:15):
amount of time. And Ivan Koloff is one of my heroes and I am glad to be able to
speak on and honor him on this show because he did a great job with this program and
happy to be back on. So I guess before we get into the meat and potatoes, if you will,

(01:16:39):
I got to ask why Ivan Koloff? Because to me, you know, there are so many big stars that came out
of that New York territory. I mean, you had San Martino's obviously a god, but you had
you had the Morales's, you had like every you name the star. They've been through there, right? It
doesn't matter what decade it is, what era was, whether it's the silver, the gold, the attitude,

(01:17:03):
you've had everything there. What is it about Ivan Koloff before we get into the actual story of him
that drew you to him and why were you so fascinated by him? Well, let me put you in the mindset of a
1970s wrestling fan. For the most part, we were blue collar marks and Ivan Koloff had held the

(01:17:28):
WWF championship, having beaten Bruno San Martino at Madison Square Garden. And Bruno had been
champion for over eight years and was practically a saint in that market, a hero. And Ivan Koloff

(01:17:51):
beating him, even though he held the title very briefly, had so much credibility back then that
he was a perennial headliner. He headlined Madison Square Garden 13 times, 13 times. Wrap your head

(01:18:11):
around that. That's a huge number for a heel opponent. And he headlined against Bruno, Pedro,
and Backlund. He was always brought back as a main event star because that title win meant so
much. And let me put an asterisk next to that. Stan Stasiak, who held the title even shorter,

(01:18:42):
same thing, because he was a world champion back then and it meant so much. He would perennially
be brought back as a main event star against Bruno and work the entire circuit on top. So,
so back then the world championship, whether it was the NWA, AWA, WWF, it just meant so much more

(01:19:08):
than today where they'll pop a TV rating and change a title on a whim. And John Cena's 16
time world champion, Randy Orton Scott knows how many times he's championed. And it doesn't mean
anything. You don't even remember who they won the belt from or lost it back to. It's just popping

(01:19:29):
ratings. So Ivan Koloff had this unbelievable credibility, but also he was arguably the greatest
foreign heel of all time. You could say Iron Sheik, you could say Nikolai Volkov, but in any
discussion Ivan Koloff would be one, if not the greatest foreign heel gimmick of all time and a

(01:19:59):
tremendous, tremendous performer. Okay. You know, it's not just that he held the belt, you know,
he was a wrestling machine. He was a powerhouse. They'd hurl them through the air like a
projectile, you know, which wasn't always the case back then with massive guys like him, 275 pounds

(01:20:24):
or 290 pounds, depending on the era or whatnot. I mean, Ivan was a great, great wrestler, great,
great gimmick, great draw. And when you saw Ivan Koloff against Bruno Sammartino live at Madison

(01:20:46):
Square Garden, there was this gravitas. There was like this awe and wonder. We were marks. He had
beaten Bruno on any given night. You're thinking he could beat Bruno again. And they had the very
first steel cage match at the Garden, Bruno and Ivan also in 75. So, you know, when you,

(01:21:10):
let me say something else. There was no entrance music. There was no pyro. There was no special
effects. Bruno came out in a pair of tights. Ivan came out in a pair of tights. They walked down the
aisle and the building shook. The building shook. And I'm not exaggerating. I'm not being melodramatic.

(01:21:34):
The charisma that both these guys had. And when these guys just looked at each other across the
ring and locked up, it was like a gasp. Like, you know, the fans were riveted. You know, these were
Marvel superhero and supervillain come to life. And Ivan was tremendous, tremendous. And

(01:22:06):
I would personally rank him in my top 10 easily in a top 20 of all time. And certainly top five
far and heel gimmick, as I said earlier. So there's something you mentioned I thought was very
fascinating. I want to circle back to before we get into the actual story of Ivan Koloff is, is how

(01:22:30):
many times he made have entered at Madison Square Garden's because again, we're talking to areas
where the lists of names were plentiful of stars that would come in, you know, assuming that Bruno
was a champ or even if Pedro was a champ. You know, the stars would come in, they'd work a match.

(01:22:50):
And many of them was only once or twice, right? You go down the list of challengers for the title.
Dusty Rhodes, for example, here's one right? Not certainly not 13 times like Koloff, I'm certain.
Dusty Rhodes wrestled Billy Graham twice on top for the title when Graham was champ twice.

(01:23:12):
And that's what I mean, right? You look at the list of names throughout history. And the fact
that this one name Ivan Koloff keeps coming up, and that he was, as you said, just a consistently
dominant force in that market and just drew the fans with that magnetism, if you will. To me,

(01:23:34):
that speaks more about how he was able to connect with the fans as a as a foreign heel. This guy
that every you were you were paying to see him for one of two reasons. Either you were a sadist of
some kind or some kind of a masochist, or you were seeing or you were paying to see your hero

(01:23:59):
beat the wheels off him. And to think that fans would come out and droves 13 separate times
to see this at that venue, the historic Madison Square Garden's that in itself is quite the feat.
I think that's something that needs to be, you know, we need to go a little bit more to that as
well. Well, let me let me just add something. Back in the day, a sellout at Madison Square Garden was

(01:24:27):
listed as 22,092. You know, whether that's exaggerated, whether there were comps involved,
I mean, it's still 22,092 is an enormous number. So and when they had the steel cage match,
they opened up the felt forum, the adjoining venue, which held several thousand. Oh, that's right.

(01:24:55):
Close to our TV clothes like they used to do with Ali and Larry Holmes and, you know,
Duran and Leonard, et cetera, close circuit. So you're talking an easy 25 or so thousand people.
So when Triple H says, you know, Vince took wrestling out of bingo, bingo halls and VFW halls,

(01:25:20):
you know, he's rewriting history. You know, the WWWF, Vince McMahon Seniors territory,
what huge arenas for them. I mean, there were smaller venues as well. But, you know,
Madison Square Garden was not a bingo hall. It was quote unquote, the Mecca of professional wrestling

(01:25:44):
and Ivan Koloff headlined at time and time again, because he was an amazing talent and an amazing
draw with unbelievable credibility. And let me add this, Ivan Koloff and Billy Graham formed a tag
team. And this is interesting, because people probably don't remember this or just weren't there.

(01:26:09):
Ivan Koloff and Billy Graham would team. Also, they headlined the garden. One night it was Bruno
and Tony Parisi against Ivan Koloff and Superstar. And what would inevitably happen when they would
wrestle is they would start arguing and Billy Graham and Ivan Koloff would start pushing each other.
And they would start, they would start like just about going at each other. And the fans were 100%

(01:26:37):
with Billy. So when Billy said Vince should have turned me, turned me face, he was absolutely
correct. Because the fans would have loved him. He would have been Hulk Hogan 10 years earlier,
you know, eight to 10 years earlier. And it's a shame because he would have been a great face

(01:27:00):
champion, Billy Graham and Ivan Koloff would have been an ideal opponent. Ideal, Billy Graham versus
Ivan Koloff would have been huge. And but Ivan Koloff had incredible eel eat at the time.
Let me add something else because you know, I'm 103 years old and so many other young people

(01:27:20):
won't know this. Think about every James Bond movie from the 60s and 70s. They were fighting
the Russians. We were in the middle of the Cold War, the Cold War. So guys like Ivan Koloff and
Nikolai Bolkov were perfect heels as Russians. And as kids when we were in school, we would have

(01:27:48):
drills where we would literally hide under these ancient wooden desks. But when the Russians nuked
us, the wooden desks from 1937 would protect us from the nuclear bombs that would rain on us from

(01:28:10):
Russia. So see, I figured it would have been all the lead paint on this school. Yeah, that too.
But Ivan Koloff and Nikolai Bolkov were perfect heels for that era. Ditto, ditto, the Nazi heels,

(01:28:30):
Baron von Raske, Waldo von Erich, Hans Schroeder, Kurt von Hess, Carl von Ess, etc. My father sat
there. My father was a World War II veteran. So you're in the 1970s, World War II veteran.
World War II was only 30 years behind. So again, these were not internet savvy, smartened up fans,

(01:29:00):
sheet reading fans. These were blue collar guys who this was their escape. And for the most part,
not 100% but for the most part, we believed, we believed that Ivan Koloff was a legitimate threat
to Bruno, to Pedro, to Backlund, etc. So on. And add to the fact that the guy was a great wrestler,

(01:29:31):
a great brawler, a great bleeder. Again, he even did high spots when he's flying through the air.
The guy could do it all. He was, you know, I've seen thousands and thousands of wrestling matches,
wrestlers literally around the world. And Ivan Koloff was as great as virtually anyone.

(01:29:57):
So it's interesting because, you know, as you've said, you've watched thousands of matches
throughout, whether it's, I'm sure even if you don't, if you discount the live ones, whether it's,
you know, on video or whatever. That's what I'm talking about, right? I started attending in 1974.

(01:30:19):
So you're looking at going up 50 years. So when you're talking about somebody who's as prolific
as Koloff was, not even just in his prime, I'm talking like throughout his entire career,
because he was a guy, as you stated earlier, right? Weight fluctuated. Most guys do that's,
you know, with age and time, whatever. But he was a guy in my opinion, who adapted to his or I

(01:30:48):
shouldn't say adaptive, but he changed his style throughout the years to incorporate different
things, whether it was more brawling, whether it was more high spots, whether it was more of the
blood, guts score, whatever you want to call it nowadays. Nowadays, they practically shoot each
other in the ring, but we're not going to get into that. I don't think right now, but he's one of
those, he was way, way, way before his time in terms of reinventing himself in the ring. I'm not

(01:31:13):
talking about in terms of a new character or a new way of presenting himself. I'm talking about the
work in the ring, what he was able to bring to the ring. Is that something that you caught a glimpse
of early on? Was that something that you were able to follow as his career progressed, especially in
the New York market? Ivan was a machine, much like Killa Kowalski, you know, great cardio,

(01:31:40):
the guy could just go 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 minutes, easy, easy. You know, the guy was a tremendous
athlete, athlete, you know. Later in his career, as your body starts to break down a bit, he was

(01:32:01):
smart enough to reinvent himself as a tag team wrestler. The Russians, I saw him monthly with
the NWA in Philly in the mid to late 80s. And he was still on top, still on top, you know, and still great.
Ivan in the Kiva, Ivan in the Krusha Khrushchev, you know, the Russians. And it was basically the same

(01:32:28):
spiel, you know, those no good Americans, we're going to get those no good Americans. It still worked in the mid to late 80s.
And I would see him on the NWA cards, and I tell people to this day, Crockett's NWA, mid to late 80s,

(01:32:50):
was the greatest wrestling I ever saw live. I would travel New York to Philly virtually every month.
You'd have Flair on top, the Horseman, Ivan in the Russians, Midnight Express, Rock and Roll Express,
Rick Roode and Manny Fernandez lower in the card, Jimmy Valiant and Billy Graham will headline The God

(01:33:11):
a zillion times, lower to mid card. Okay, it was the most stacked shows you could ever imagine.
Better than a monthly card in Philly, NWA, that era, was better than any WrestleMania lineup, any
WrestleMania, believe me. And they would pack, you know, it was like a 10,000-associated arena.

(01:33:38):
And Ivan was always on top or near the top. I mean, the Russians gimmick was huge. Nikita eventually
branched out more solo. You know, you had Nikita and Magnum doing the four out of seven series, and
Nikita eventually turned face. But the Russians were always, you know, big, big stars in the NWA

(01:34:03):
as well. He was never one of those guys who, you know, got old and, you know, lost it all and was
jobbed out. It never came down to that. He was a star. I mean, you know, from the late 60s to the

(01:34:23):
late 80s. And I'm glad he never went through, you know, that decline that so many have, where
to this day, I just cringe when somebody will say Baron Sokloon, you know, Jerry Valiant,

(01:34:45):
Butcher Paul Vashon, etc. were just quote unquote jobbers, which is, you know, a derogatory term.
They didn't, they don't know that these guys were champions, main eventers. And I'm glad that Ivan
never went through that, you know, where he was always a star and, you know, he went out on top.

(01:35:09):
He was never like he was the guy fed to the, you know, younger guys on TV. So I have nothing but
great memories of him. And, you know, just basically for 15 years from 1975 to the late 80s,

(01:35:32):
I saw him regularly and he was always on top and always great, always great.
Right. So that's something that you just brought up a point and I want to circle back to quick
before you kind of progress any further is the fact that he never was used as that, you know,
the washed up wrestler status, right? You know, we've seen it. I'm not going to list the names.

(01:35:55):
We've seen, you know, the guys even in recent years, right? They go from,
you know, I'm going to date myself too, right? You see the guys go from the WWF to like TNA.
And then they're, you know, they're the washed up guys and they're just there for a paycheck.
You saw this, you know, from, from the sixties onward, there's all, there's

(01:36:15):
many names you could name and I'm not going to right now because it's not really
the time or place to do it. But what I will say is that Koloff was never one of those guys who
had the knock on him for being there for the paycheck, right? He, he wasn't, he wasn't there
to show up and do 10 minutes of stand up in the ring and hit the showers, right? He was,

(01:36:37):
he was there to, he was there to work and he was there to, but not only work, but he was there to
draw as well. And I'm glad you brought that aspect up because you know, you look at NWA in, in the,
even when he was there in the seventies, nevermind, but also in the eighties as well, right? He's
still drawing. People are going to see him. He is the reason it doesn't matter that it's,

(01:37:00):
it maybe it's not 22,000 like MSG, but show me somebody today, anybody today, just about
who could draw 10,000 people with that person himself in a match against the
name of the opponent. But with that person himself and an opponent draw 10,000 in arena today,

(01:37:22):
probably not, but Koloff was, and this is, you know, almost what 25 years into his career at
that point. It's, it's unbelievable.
Yeah. Yeah. He, another thing that I neglected to mention was Bruno himself. You know, he had power
as a champion for over eight years. He said, Ivan's the guy I want to beat me. Bruno's body was broken

(01:37:49):
down. Bruno was exhausted. Bruno wasn't a kid anymore. So he saw this unbelievable athlete who was
credible and it wasn't embarrassing to him to lose to an Ivan Koloff. He had nothing but respect for

(01:38:10):
him. And if you look at Bruno's history, some of his, you know, most prolific opponents who we
wrestled hundreds of times was Killer Kowalski, Waldo Van Aerk. These were great, great wrestlers.
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the Waldo Van Aerk was fierce and he was a big guy. Vince McMahon,

(01:38:36):
senior built the promotion around super heavyweights because Bruno bench pressed, I believe it was 565
pounds or something. He was a powerhouse. So you had to have somebody who was big and mean and
powerful and legit to be a credible opponent against Bruno and even backland because backland was

(01:39:02):
like a machine, physically an amazing athlete. So Vince McMahon, senior built it on these big,
powerful, credible guys and Ivan Koloff. This guy was 275 pounds and he could move. He was fast.

(01:39:24):
Absolutely. Yeah, he could do it all. So, you know, don't headline the God in 13 times if,
you know, if you're some slug.
It is interesting and I'll do a little bit of a sidebar here before you get on track,

(01:39:44):
but it is interesting that two of the most well-respected champions in history,
Bruno Sanmartino and Lou Thesz, handpicked Canadians to usurp them as champions.
Obviously, the Koloff issue with Sanmartino paid off in spades. Lou Thesz originally picked

(01:40:06):
George Gordienko from Winnipeg, but with the immigration issues that obviously fell apart.
If anybody's interested in that story, they can listen in season two. We have a big deep
dive in George Gordienko, but it is interesting that it would be two Canadian heavyweights or
should have been two Canadian heavyweights to dethrone two of the longest-reigning champions

(01:40:28):
of their eras holding their prestigious titles. I just think it's an interesting
little side note, a little footnote in history.
Well, you also have to remember in the 1960s, it was not an open business with
hundreds of schools and everybody and his mother's a coach, trainer. Even Harley Race

(01:40:51):
initially was kind of like held the veterans bags and carried the bags around and had to pay his
dues before he was trained. I think he had to do a little bit of, he had to do
hygiene work for, I can't remember the rest of his day, was that Haystack Calhoun?

(01:41:11):
I believe. Yeah. Yeah, that's right too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, yeah.
We will get into that right now. Yeah, that's a whole different story. But my point being,
Harley Race, who's also one of the top 10 greatest of all time, he had just strolled through the

(01:41:34):
door. So a guy like Ivan Kolov paid his dues and really learned his crap before going out into the
ring and building his reputation and finding the right gimmick. And when Bruno quote unquote,
chose him and the promoters agreed on him, Ivan Kolov as the interim champion, it really meant

(01:41:59):
something back then. Again, Bruno was champion eight and a half or so years. So when somebody
won the belt from him, I'll tell you a funny story. I just read Bill Afta's book and I reviewed it
to Pro Wrestling Stories. It's a very good book. Bill Afta was covering the 1971 title change at

(01:42:26):
the Garden, which was a little before my time. And so Stanley Weston, who ran the magazines that Bill
Afta worked for, said, Bill, you can't tell anybody. This is a big deal. Bruno's losing the
belt type and you're going to take the photos there. You can't tell anybody. So Bill Afta

(01:42:52):
couldn't, smart enough as dad, he couldn't tell his dad. Okay. It was so top secret. It was a
different business. It's like now if a title is going to change, everybody knows it, weeks in
advance. I mean, Bruno losing to Ivan was a huge, huge deal. It's a different world. You can't

(01:43:17):
grasp the mindset of 50 years ago unless you were around during that period. And even Billy Graham
beating Bruno was a tremendous big deal. And that was only a three and a half or so year reign.
But a title change back then meant everything, everything. Now it's, this is his 12th reign,

(01:43:42):
his 13th. Charlotte Flats, number seven, number eight, number nine. It's like meaningless.
Well, and it's, you know, that's, it's the hot potato mentality. Unfortunately, we saw a lot of
that starting the Attitude Era. So, and it's kind of progressed from there. You know, good, bad,
or indifferent, it's here to stay. Unfortunately, you know, maybe they're going to reverse a little

(01:44:05):
bit with Roman Reigns. I think he's had it for, what is it, three years or four years? But.
Well, it's a very, very different business.
Oh, absolutely. 100% it is. Yeah. Roman Reigns will come in and wrestle some big pay-per-view
in a new market, you know, in Wales or whatever against McIntyre. And it becomes, you know,

(01:44:29):
a big money event with big money packages. You know, back then the champion defended every month
in the same arenas around the circuit and they were expected to draw every month. So, you know,
again, Ivan winning was, was a huge, huge story back then.

(01:44:52):
So here's something that's often not discussed. You know, I would like to get your perspective
on it. So, you know, obviously, Koldof ends the vaunted reign of Brutus San Martino, you know,
just about eight years long, right? It's like seven. It's like as close as like seven and five,

(01:45:12):
six or seven and three or whatever, right? Yeah, absolutely. So he ends the reign.
He holds the title for, I believe it was 21 days, then he loses the title to Pedro Morales. But
at the time, and you know, a few years after that, were people looking at Koldof like he was,

(01:45:37):
he was one and done or did people think that he was actually going to come back and challenge
and get back into the title picture for the, for winning it again? Well, that was my point. When
he came back in 1975 against Bruno, it was a huge deal that they sold out Madison Square Garden three
months in a row, three months in a row. Okay, you know, you're talking $100,000 gates back then,

(01:46:05):
which was, you know, a lot of money for that era. And he, and like I said, the first steel cage match
at the garden. And after he lost, it wasn't like he was diminished. You know, he was still on top
tagging with Billy Graham and you know, what they would do, well, what they would do back then is

(01:46:29):
go to a different territory at some point and come back hot again. So in 78 or not 78, he came back
to Russell Backlund, you know, and he was on top again. So the guy who always had that credibility
where he could main event. Yeah, which is so just in our quick inflation calculator, if you will.

(01:46:56):
So 100, 100 grand back then in 1970 is almost 400,000 now, which is, and you know,
and like you said, the amount of times that that occurred is, it's stunning almost right when you

(01:47:18):
can when you compare it to nowadays. And that's just one venue. That's what I'm talking about.
They go to Boston Gardens and Philadelphia Spectrum and you know, all the major arenas up and down
the East Coast, the WWWF. So Ivan Koloff generated millions and millions of dollars for them as the

(01:47:41):
heel draw on top. So, so 50 years later, how is Ivan Koloff not in the WWE Hall of Fame? He's not
on Vince's good list. Let's, let's look at some of the quote unquote allegations as to why. One,

(01:48:05):
he was part of the concussion lawsuit that many of the wrestlers signed on to. So this of course
would tick off Vince. Two, at one point, Billy Graham, Ivan Koloff and Ernie Ladd
went to Vince senior and said, we want more pay and we want equal pay because all three of us are

(01:48:32):
on top and the draws on your cards. Okay. Even though they were not the champion, the champions
at the time, I'm talking, you know, 75, 1975, 1976, the trio who were the big heels of that day said,

(01:48:53):
we want to be paid more. We want to be paid equally. Whether one's on top and one's in the
co-feature or one's on top and the other two were tag teaming that night, pay us more. Okay.
Okay. Great. But before you get to three, cause I just want to explain, cause we have some listeners
who are newer to getting into the history side of things. So before we get into three, let's sidebar

(01:49:19):
for a second and just explain to everybody how the pay structure would work on a, on a show in the
sixties, seventies, even into the eighties. Well, Bruno, Bruno, Johnny Valiant told me
would get about $8,000 to headline the garden and his opponent would get more, more in the $2,000

(01:49:40):
dollar range, which, you know, again, for the fanboys who do the, they all pissed it away.
Millions of dollars on wine women and song. They have no idea of just how little these guys made.
Many of these guys pre-Holkermania era never broke a hundred grand a year.

(01:50:01):
They never broke a hundred grand a year. So where they're pissing away millions of dollars,
squandering their wealth is beyond me. It's a fanboy myth exaggeration. Yes. Some wrestlers
squandered their money, but again, before Hulkamania mid eighties, they were not making huge money.

(01:50:26):
Okay. So you're on top of Madison square garden, the, the, the heel facing Bruno, you're going to get,
you know, with the exception of Bruno, the biggest payday of the night. So basically it was almost
like a mini union where Ivan Billy Graham and Ernie lad said, look, we're all the draw here.

(01:50:50):
Hey, us more pay us fairly. And interestingly, the very next year, 1976, Stan Hansen and bruiser Brody
come into the territory and nobody knew them. And it was considered, it was considered a big drop off

(01:51:11):
in talent. You know, you're going from Graham Cole to bruiser Brody and Stan Hansen. So it was
just a freak thing that Hansen legitimately hurt Bruno, you know, you know, broke his neck or whatever
the case may be. And, um, it made Hansen a huge star and Hansen and Brody teamed up at the time in

(01:51:37):
the tri WF, but, um, they were not considered, they were kids at the time, quote unquote kids,
and they didn't have that reputation. But again, these were big, huge guys. They were perfect
opponents for Bruno. I saw, I saw Bruno in a Brody in a cage back, back in 76. So, uh, but it didn't

(01:51:58):
have like that grubby past of an Ivan Kouloff or Billy Graham, particularly after, after Graham and
Kouloff won the belts. So let me just say one other thing that's a little, but note in history. Um,
Billy Graham and Bruno with Billy Graham and Ivan would come back time and time again to wrestle

(01:52:21):
Bruno, even when Bruno wasn't champion as the co-feature on Backlund's cards. That's right.
Because it was such a draw and, and up and down the entire tri WF circuit. So, you know,
Ivan, Ivan generated a lot of money for them. So, so, so you, you have a third scenario

(01:52:46):
where Ivan literally left the tri WF and went to Eddie Einhorn's IWA, which had TV across the country
and was considered at the time, some kind of competition or threat. And there's Ivan Kouloff

(01:53:06):
headlining against Milmaskras, who was their champion, and then there's the
headlining against Milmaskras who was their champion. Um, cause he was getting better money
and, uh, this did not endear him to the McMahon family competing against the WWWF. So there were,

(01:53:31):
there were multiple reasons why Ivan is, is not on Vince Jr's good list and is not in the hall of
fame because I can assure you he's more worthy than 90% of the guys and women that are in there

(01:53:52):
at this moment. It's, it's, it's, it's petty. Um, I wrote, I wrote a piece for Pro Wrestling Stories.
Um, I called it WWE's shame Ivan Kouloff, not in the WWE.
Which is a true way to say it. And as, I mean, how, how petty as well that link, uh, to Evan's

(01:54:17):
article will be in the show notes of today's episode. So as you're going through your podcast
player, please click on the link. You can read it. It's right there. There may be your blood pressure
will go up when you read it. Well, so I want to stay on this topic because there is so much
conjecture about why he's not in also, uh, you know, you'll look at the list of names that are

(01:54:43):
in and he's not, which is unbelievable. Three reasons, three very strong reasons. So I'll give
you four and I have a feeling that you personally may have a number five, but I'll see number,
a fourth reason. And one that I always saw was interesting is going back to our discussion about

(01:55:04):
the AWR, sorry, the NWA, his time in the eighties when it was really hot, right? This is a time when
many of the big stars, uh, you had, you had flair, you had roads, you had, uh, the road wars were
massive stars there, right? You, you had, uh, you had the rock and roll there.

(01:55:26):
Just the, the plethora of talent as you illustrated earlier was, was immeasurable,
huge. And the fact that he would quote unquote, leave the WWF and go to the NWA at the time who
were still rivals, you know, there's a big split and we go to the history of all that, uh, it's

(01:55:48):
probably too much to go into right now, but I had always heard and perhaps maybe I'm wrong about
that, but I heard that that was a thorn in the side as well, because why would you leave the
WWF, the WWF and go to the competitor? I'm throwing that in quotations and then be on top, right?
Again, he's made, he wasn't a preliminary guy. He was main eventing. He was top of the marquee. He

(01:56:14):
was drawing the crowds. And I always had heard that that was one of the reasons that his name was kind
of not blacklisted, but maybe we'll say, uh, push down the rungs a little bit in, in terms of
recognition by the WWF and now, now known as the WWE nowadays. It could be a cumulative,

(01:56:37):
a cumulative effect of all of those things. Um, you know, um, it ultimately comes down to money and,
um, Ivan wanted to be paid fairly and he went where the money was. And, um,
when he was sick for several years with cancer, um, sadly, WWE still wasn't gracious enough to

(01:57:06):
put him in the hall of fame and, uh, they had go fund me's and they were walking t-shirts.
How disgraceful, you know, that this guy didn't have a pension or 401k health benefits.
Et cetera. When he spent so much time, so many nights working for, uh, the McMahon family,

(01:57:29):
utterly disgraceful and whatever the reasons may, may have been the guy deserves to be in the hall
of fame. He's not, he wasn't quite the wrestler that Pete Rose was, but
obviously you're talking about your articles is going to make blood pressure. I think you just made
mine. But maybe, maybe at some point when, uh, Vince who controls the WWE hall of fame, good list,

(01:57:59):
the hall of fame is basically the one that's going to be the most successful, uh,
when, uh, Vince who controls the WWE hall of fame, good list, the hall of fame is basically
his good list. Um, maybe at some point they'll put him in or, uh, in that ridiculous, um,

(01:58:24):
what do you call it? Legends wing or whatever. Oh yeah. When they, cause Lord knows they have to
have their quota of, uh, you know, wrestlers who have passed on, which is that's a, that's a whole
other ball of wax. I'm sure when you dump a Ray Stevens without even bringing up his family or,

(01:58:49):
you know, doing it right, it's disgraceful. So, um, you know, maybe at some point they'll do that
for Ivan once Vince is really out of the picture or eventually gone. But, um, when he was sick
and dying and it was known that he was sick and dying, they should have been gracious enough and

(01:59:14):
done the right thing and put them in while he was here to appreciate it. And, um, you know,
the, this is a ruthless corporation. They don't, you know, it's not the way they're wired. So, uh,
thank, thank you to you, to you for doing shows like this and keeping memories of,

(01:59:38):
you know, guys like this and John Tolos and all these great wrestlers, you know,
to devote an hour or two hours to somebody. There are times WWE won't devote 10 seconds
to acknowledging somebody who passed. They didn't mention Lanny Pafo when he died on their TV. This

(02:00:02):
was a dear friend of mine. This man slept on my couch. This was a friend of mine. Okay. To not
mention him because they're pushing some inane, you know, stultifying angle that insults your
intelligence. You can't spare 10 seconds. Okay. They very, very, very briefly put a picture of Ivan

(02:00:28):
up there. If I remember correctly. I think you're correct about that. And that's about it.
That was it. That was it. And, uh, no hall of fame, no video tribute, pretty much, you know,
so what can I say? I don't want to belabor the point, but, uh, you know, thank you for doing

(02:00:52):
shows like this because, um, for those, for his family, for his friends, for his fans,
and for history. Cause, um, okay. You're not in the hall of fame. So a show like this is really
going to chronicle and honor somebody much more. So you're not going to see an Ivan Cole documentary

(02:01:18):
coming from WWE film. No, no, definitely not. Yeah. Which you, you know, and
and I'm not going to get into, you know, the, uh, the documentary aspect of it and what,
what they do and do not do in terms of that. And you know what? I will say, um, I'm thankful

(02:01:40):
that there was no, you know, dark side of the ring episode on the concussion lawsuit. Cause that
would have been just a crock and we all, uh, you personally, you know, my feelings about that whole
series in the way that they portray things. So I'm kind of glad that that hasn't been a thing. And
I'm not trying to give them any ideas in the next few years, but, you know, it's, it's not only, uh,

(02:02:03):
chronicling his, his career and things of that, but it's also trying to get the perspective of
somebody outside of Canada, right? Cause he had, obviously there was a big impact here in Montreal.
He was very, very, very, very well known, even though he was the Russian bear, right?
He, you know, they knew, right. And he, he had my in Maple Leaf, like everywhere else.

(02:02:26):
And he, and, and, and they loved them. They loved to hate them certainly too, but,
but it's, it's interesting to hear your perspective because not only did you,
did you watch him, you grew up watching him, you moved into adolescence, but then you also
went back and you looked into him when you got into the writing side. And that's what I think

(02:02:48):
is fascinating is that this is somebody who's stuck with you through the years, like a John
Toulouse who we've mentioned many times, right? But here's somebody who, who, and it's not just
you personally, but, but that whole area, that era of wrestling fan, here's somebody who, from
a foreign country, because Canada is, it still is a foreign country in terms of America, right?

(02:03:13):
Here's somebody from a foreign country, a French speaking province on top of that, and comes in and
leaves an impact, a lasting impact on an entire generation or generations. And to me that,
that's the story. That's what I wanted to illustrate to people tonight or today or this

(02:03:37):
morning, whenever anybody's listening to this, is this is why he should be discussed and remembered.
Whether or not he's in some fictitious hall of fame is irrelevant. The, the facts speak for the,
for themselves. And that's the real reason about doing this program tonight.
Well, let me, let me add this. Why is somebody like Ivan Koloff so important to me? When you look back

(02:04:09):
at the best nights of your life, you spent it with your late father who took you as a kid or,
or as a teenager or both to the matches, and you're sitting there together enjoying Ivan Koloff.

(02:04:32):
So, so my father died when I was 20. So when I look back at my life, there were many nights
where my father and I saw Bruno versus Ivan Koloff at Madison Square Garden, Nassau Coliseum,
headlining also Nassau Coliseum, major arenas. And these were great, great nights that you spent

(02:04:54):
with your beloved father. And for somebody else, it could be your mother, your uncle, your aunt,
whoever it was that took you as a kid. Let me take it another step as an adult or a quote unquote
wrestling journalist. Sometimes I cringed at that term because a lot of wrestling journalists
can't write. No, no, they also can't do a whole lot of things.

(02:05:22):
You meet an Ivan Koloff and you approach a hero. That guy's nice. The guy's so nice and gracious
and warm and friendly and accommodating. Oh yeah, I'm happy to sign this for you. Nice to meet you,
you know, and you're not disappointed, you know, it's not the undertaker charging $200

(02:05:51):
for an autograph or a photo op. It's a fan meeting a hero and the person lives up to your
expectations of who this person is. And yeah, on so many levels, the guy, he never disappointed you

(02:06:16):
in the ring. And as a person, let me just say this. Okay, I have a love hate relationship with this
business. If you watch 350 days, you're going to see some, you know, it's not all happy. The
documentary that we made, these guys had a tough, tough road. Okay, so you talk to anybody in the

(02:06:44):
wrestling business about Ivan Koloff, and they're going to say he was a great, he was great in ring
and he was a great human being. He was a great person. They're going to say that about Terry
Funk. They're going to say that about Roddy Piper. They're not going to say that about everybody.
Okay, there's a select list of people who are beloved in this industry that did not leave a

(02:07:13):
trail of, you know, angry, disappointed people with this illusion after their encounters with them.
Ivan Koloff was beloved, is, is, years after his death, beloved in this business. And that is not
always the case. Believe me, Nikolai was the same. When Nikolai died, speaking of Russian needles,

(02:07:38):
not to go off on a tangent, but when Nikolai died, Brad Hart wrestled everybody, everybody,
said Nikolai Volkov was the nicest wrestler I ever met in this business. He said that. Yeah,
I'm quoting him. So you will get the very same sort of reactions with legends when they talk

(02:08:01):
about Ivan Koloff. And let me take it to the next step. As a writer who has interviewed many,
many, many legends over the years, inevitably the legends, not the fanboys who go Roman Reigns is
the greatest of all time or whatnot. The legends will tell you the greatest of all time, Buddy

(02:08:24):
Rogers, Luthes, okay. And you'll probably be surprised, Prime Ray Stevens. Those are the guys
the legends, inevitably the older legends cite as the greatest of all time. Right? That same rarefied

(02:08:46):
air, Terry Funk, Ivan Koloff, Bruno, not that he was a great, great wrestler, but because he was
just so respected and beloved, Polly Ray's, Nick Bachwinkle, and a handful of others. But inevitably,

(02:09:09):
whenever a legend talks about Ivan Koloff, it's with reverence, reverence, okay. And I'm just
stating this, not an opinion, that's a fact. I've interviewed hundreds of legends over the years.
Whenever Ivan's name comes up, oh, he was great, guy was great, he was great in the ring, what a

(02:09:33):
nice man, what a great person, you know, that's the reaction. And I don't know, I don't know what,
what else to say, you know, short of rattling off results and statistics, but nothing but respect
and love for this guy. And among my greatest memories of being at wrestling and seeing him on

(02:10:02):
top and he was fierce, like Kowalski, he just kept coming at you, the cardio, you know, the guy, you
know, this, this. And eventually, eventually, sadly, because of all the bumps, because of the

(02:10:23):
thousands and thousands of matches, his body started to break down and he was in a lot of
physical pain and he just couldn't do it anymore. And that was pretty much it. So, you know, your
body gives it, or as the wrestlers like to say, there's only so many bumps in your body.

(02:10:44):
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and he was smart enough not to hang around too long. There were guys,
I'm not going to name names, but there's guys who just hung around too long.
Yeah, we need to get into it. Yeah.
Yeah. And they were a shell of what they were. And people don't even remember how great they
were because they stayed around way too long. And, but Ivan never made that mistake, you know, he,

(02:11:14):
he left an impeccable body of work. And luckily, not all, but a lot of it still exists.
Cause he was still a big star in the eighties and, you know, you could watch a lot of his stuff on
YouTube or Peacock, WWE, whatever the case may be. A guy like John Tolis, who I'm writing a book

(02:11:37):
about, there's not a lot of his footage. There's not a lot of his footage. You know, it was a race,
the Chinse promoters would tape over the TV just to save 25 or 50 bucks on a tape. And so a guy,
a guy like John Tolis is more lost to history. Ivan Koloff, there's plenty you can watch and enjoy.

(02:12:02):
It's a little piece of immortality where you could just go to YouTube and there he is. And I'll tell
you, I haven't, it's almost, it's almost like a melancholy experience. I'll occasionally watch an
old match from the garden and it'll, and there's so much charisma, like a Bruno versus Ivan,

(02:12:24):
there's so much charisma. And then you start to wrap your head around it and you go,
Bruno's gone, Ivan's gone, the referee's gone, the announcers are gone, you know? And, and
and, and it, it hurts. It really hurts. And I could go beyond that. I mean, as somebody who went

(02:12:45):
pretty much every month back then, I'll look in the audience and see people I know and go,
Georgianne Makropoulos, the wrestling writer, she's gone, you know? And, but the beauty of it is,
you know, one day we'll be gone and your show will still be out there and Ivan's matches will

(02:13:07):
still be out there and the movies I make will still be out there or whatnot. And, and, you know,
Ivan has a little piece of immortality. Immortality. Why? Because he was great. Because he was great.
It's not charting out vanilla content like WWE, a zillion hours every week. Ivan was great and it'll

(02:13:33):
and it'll live forever and in his own way, like a movie star from 100 years ago or 50 years ago.
He'll live forever. And it's a, it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing.
I guess before we finish up tonight, is there anything else that we didn't cover that you
think that we should get into? I hope that maybe through fan pressure or whatnot, people will

(02:14:06):
tell WWE, put them in the Hall of Fame, because that would be the final, you know,
cherry on the top or whatever the expression is. He deserves it. I think it will introduce him to
many who were too young to have seen him or really know of him. And I mean, even the NWA stuff from

(02:14:32):
the 80s, that's 40 years ago. If you look at 35, 40 years ago, you know, we're going into 2024
shortly, you know, 1985 to 1990. It's a long time ago, even when he was in the NWA.
Hey, easy now. Some of us were born in 85.

(02:14:54):
Well, well, a lot, a lot younger than me. So I, well, I, you know, every once in a while,
I'll see his widow online and she's very appreciative when the fans speak well of him

(02:15:15):
and speak highly of him. So I know a show like this will mean a lot to her and his family and
you know, but if you're asking me for one last point, I would say, let the fans,
or the WWE Universe, the WWE Universe, let the fans tell them, put this guy in all the things.

(02:15:40):
Finally, it's the right thing to do. He more than deserves it. It's not even debatable.
Does he deserve it or not? It's whether they're willing or not. So, uh, I'd like to see it.
I'll tell you a funny story. I'm a, I grew up in a black neighborhood and I grew up on R&B.
And I said, before I die, I want to see the spinners in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

(02:16:04):
and Ivan Kouloff in the WWE Hall of Fame. They just put the spinners in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
So you got to fulfill my final wish. Yeah, put Ivan in there for WWE. If not, if not my
vacation plans over Christmas, I'm going to go visit the WWE Hall of Fame in parts unknown

(02:16:28):
and spend quality time in the Ivan Kouloff wing. That's what I'm going to do.
Anyway. Oh, that's tremendous. Well, thanks, Evan. This was, this is awesome.
My pleasure. It's from the heart, you know, it's really, uh, the guy was just so great,

(02:16:48):
so great. You know, it's hard to even put it into words. The guy, oh man, I, uh, I hope that
millions more over time will discover him and, um, appreciate him because, uh, you know,

(02:17:10):
there's a zillion wrestlers, but there's few and far between as great as Ivan Kouloff.
Before we wrap up tonight's episode, first off, I want to thank my two tremendous guests tonight,
Benny Scala and Evan Ginsburg. You can find links to their projects in the description of today's
episode, the show notes, if you will. I really hope that you'll take the time not only to read

(02:17:32):
their articles on Ivan Kouloff, but also to check out their other projects. You heard the plethora
of projects that both of them have on the go. And I also hope that you guys check out what they are
up to in the very near future. Evan has something in the works that I'm really excited for personally.
So I hope that you guys will, uh, give those articles a read and give their projects a look-see,

(02:17:57):
if you will. I also want to thank you, the listener. We are in season four because of you.
If you could do me the biggest favor and hit that follow or subscribe button on whatever podcast
platform that you are listening to this program on, it would mean the world to me. As well as,

(02:18:17):
if you are able to leave a five star rating and review, once again, it's one of those feel good
things that I like to get once in a while. So even if you don't, still, thank you very much
for listening and I hope to, uh, I hope to have some great content for you in season four.
As we wrap up this episode, I think the best way to wrap this up is to hear Ivan Koloff in his own

(02:18:43):
words. Now, this audio I pulled from one of his seminars that he had, I believe it was just a
couple of years before he had passed, but I think it's a really great showcase of just what a down
to earth, honest and truly warmhearted individual he really was. And I think that's about the best

(02:19:07):
way to end this episode. So I will sign off as I usually do by asking you to take care of yourselves
and each other. And I really hope that you enjoy this last piece of audio, my friends, Ivan Koloff.
Thank you. I believe that, uh, if I had a chance to say it, every time I have a chance to say it,

(02:19:34):
I do it. I turned my life over to the Lord in 1995 out of necessity. Uh, I was raised in church,
Roman Catholic church. I thought because I went to church and I was a Christian and consequently,
uh, I didn't have all my things in priority, my life priority. I ended up going out there and

(02:19:56):
trying to find happiness through drinking drugs and the wild party life and, uh, thinking that I
was doing the thing with this world, like, you know, like everybody else, there are a lot of other
people I figured were doing it was the thing to do and realize that, uh, in the early 90s,
after I quit the WCW and the same man, I got to get out of these drugs because I got really in
bad shape from marijuana to pills to the cocaine and the drinking. Uh, I was a mess. Uh, should

(02:20:23):
have been killed dozens of times at least, and I came close a couple of times and, uh, I ended up
being approached by my nephew Nikita and, um, on the phone and he says, uh, uh, uncle, he's excited.
I want you to show up at the church, assembly of God church, uh, on Sunday night, uh, Sunday

(02:20:44):
night. Uh, I says, uh, why, why Nikki? He says, well, I think I know what you need in your life.
I said, Nikki, I was raised in church. I know who Jesus is. He says, so does the devil know who Jesus
is, but knowing who he is and accepting him is two different things and never really got my attention.
So I went to the church like he suggests I do. And, uh, so I say now this day, uh, I got Nikita

(02:21:07):
into wrestling, but he got, I got the best of the deal. I got, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
uh, I got the Lord into me because I went to the church that day and I was convicted of what the
preacher was saying and realize that that was the truth that, uh, God made us in his image, that, uh,
I was a sinner and that, uh, the only way I was going to get to heaven was to ask Jesus to come

(02:21:32):
into my heart because, uh, he was the son of God and then he died for my sins and raised from the
dead. And that price that he paid paid for my sins too. All I had to do is accept him and have a
relationship with him. And I did that that day. I ended up asking from my heart and, uh, I had quite
an experience that day because, uh, God touched me in such a way that I couldn't deny that he was for

(02:21:55):
real. And, uh, I'll leave that to your imagination, but, uh, I was really taken back to say the least.
And, uh, I was told to get into the word because the word would renew my mind, would increase my
faith. And, uh, that's what I needed. I needed Jesus in my heart and you, the God's Holy Spirit.
And that's the way you do it by increasing God's truth, his word. I just went on faith and just

(02:22:20):
started reading the Bible, read the Bible. Didn't make a lot of sense to me. Tried to pray, didn't
know a lot about prayer and, uh, uh, struggle a little bit with the drinking and, uh, uh, chewing
tobacco and that, uh, but I couldn't afford the cocaine no more. But, uh, I asked God to clean me
up of all this stuff and, uh, he did. Just a matter of time. Uh, I was, uh, uh, cleaned up from the

(02:22:46):
chewing tobacco and then, uh, the marijuana and then, uh, the drinking. And, uh, so it's not an
issue with me no more. If I take a prescription, I'm conscious of it. But I just went back to the
doctor because I was on for injuries, you know, I was on, uh, uh, some pills. If I could in, uh, my kidney numbers were up.

(02:23:09):
So if I could, it's hard on that. So I went back and got on another one. It wasn't so hard on the kidney.
So you got to watch yourself anyway. You got to, and God tells us that, you know, that, uh, the truth
is that you're free. The truth is God's word. And he says that we need to look after our body. So
not only what we eat, but the way we take care of it by, uh, pills and all this stuff and consuming stuff.

(02:23:30):
But he's good. God's good just to be able to do that. And to me, that's the whole essence of my life today
is to be able to go out there and share that with people. And I try to do it when I'm doing autographs
for Children's Miracle in the last 20 years, uh, uh, in the last 15 years, at least, uh, doing the autographs
since I became a Christian, 17 years now. And, uh, but, uh, I go to churches. I got ordained here seven years ago

(02:23:57):
and perform the ceremonies for, uh, weddings. Uh, and, uh, just, uh, love to go to churches and
brag on the Lord. And, uh, of course, go to the events anytime wrestling like this is really a treat
because I get to see some of my old friends like today here at, uh, Winston Salem. And, uh, and it's great

(02:24:20):
to see the guys like the Rock and Roll Express and Barbarian and guys like that, you know, the Jimmy
Valiant, the boogie wiggy man. And, uh, even though they beat me up and gave me a bloody nose often and
busted my lip and that, it was, it's always good to see because you get to respect guys like that,
you know, good to see them again. But, uh, got a good wife, got a, uh, a couple grand, keeping babies

(02:24:45):
now, daughter who sings gospel, really good. She's got my talent. She's not only got my talent, but my hair.
I claim it. I say I don't have the hair no more and I don't have the singing voice anymore.
She's got it. She's really good. And, uh, um.

(02:25:17):
This has been your episode of Grappling with Canada. This episode was written, researched,
produced and recorded by me, Andy the Taxman. You can find Grappling with Canada on all major
podcasts and platforms. Please make sure to rate and review Five Stars where available.

(02:25:39):
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(02:26:00):
Linktree link in today's show notes. You can also find links to the Grappling with Canada merchandise
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"The Russian Bear" Ivan Koloff - A Shamefull Hall Of Fame Snub

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"The Russian Bear" Ivan Koloff - A Shamefull Hall Of Fame Snub