August 20, 2024 • 37 mins
This week, we are joined by beloved movement creatrix adrienne maree brown in a conversation about talking with trees, finding your murmuration, and holding complexity (and each other). With wisdom from Gratitude Blooming’s rose card representing choice, the celebrated author of Emergent Strategy joins co-hosts Belinda Liu and Omar Brownson for an insightful conversation on building right relationships, the power of proximity and her new book Loving Corrections.
We unravel the threads of how capitalism and colonization pull us away from our local communities and the urgent need for spiritual technologies to navigate global crises. Listen in as adrienne shares her wisdom on staying present and connected with our surroundings and the people closest to us, drawing from personal experiences and collective actions like passing a ceasefire resolution with her community in Durham, NC.
How does a budding spring rosebud symbolize the myriad of decisions we face in life?
In an illustration rich with metaphor, we explore the intricate paths of personal growth and choices, inspired by the branching paths of a rose drawing. From enchanting writing retreats in Ireland to the meditative act of planting rose bushes, we reflect on the lessons nature teaches us about balance, protection, and growth. Each choice, whether familiar or uncharted, blossoms with its own potential and beauty, mirroring our life's journey.
Art and activism intertwine beautifully as we celebrate the power of creativity in times of political and emotional upheaval. Drawing from a spring equinox excerpt from her new book, adrienne maree brown shares how poetry, song, and spells can transform overwhelming emotions into life-affirming art.
By turning chaos into creative expressions, we find ways to embrace joy, authenticity, and a positive outlook. We hope the heartfelt stories and actionable insights shared in this episode inspire you to turn tough emotions into meaningful actions and cultivate beauty and resilience even in the most challenging times.
Deepen your exploration of Gratitude Blooming's Card #3 CHOICE / SPRING ROSE by tuning into our song and other episodes on choice here:
https://www.gratitudeblooming.com/choice
Explore adrienne's work here:
adrienne maree brown is growing a garden of healing ideas through her multi-genre writing, her collaborations and her podcasts. Informed by 25 years of movement facilitation, somatics, Octavia E Butler scholarship and her work as a doula, adrienne has nurtured Emergent Strategy, Pleasure Activism, Radical Imagination and Transformative Justice as ideas and practices for transformation. She is the author/editor of several published
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Create an intentional practice with your own Gratitude Blooming card deck, notecards, candle and much much more at our shop at www.gratitudeblooming.com.
Learn more about our co-hosts and special guest for Season 4:
Co-host Belinda Liu | Hestia Retreat Centers
Co-host Omar Brownson | Trickster's Guide to Immortality on Substack
Special Guest Dr. Paul Wang | The Dao Center
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave us a 5-star rating and review. Your feedback is valuable to us and helps us grow.
Share your thoughts and comments by emailing us at hello@gratitudeblooming.com. We love hearing from
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Omar Brownson (00:06):
Hello Belinda.
adrienne maree brown (00:09):
Hey Omar.
Omar Brownson (00:11):
So excited that we get to have the Adrienne
Marie Brown on the podcast today.
I read your book, emergentStrategy in 2020.
I was feeling a very parallelmoment, wherever, somewhere, you
were writing it and my dearfriend taj his name, was all
(00:35):
over the book.
Uh, he and I go back to collegedays.
Um, we cut our teeth onenvironmental justice organizing
and we were young people and atthat time, young people
organizing on environmentaljustice was like all three rails
that philanthropy wouldn'ttouch and that's what we were
(00:59):
doing.
We hadn't talked in forever.
Then I was on maui and I was,um, going on the road to hana.
We were listening to this uh,audio sort of tour and the guide
was like take a turn here andtake a look at these rainbow
eucalyptus trees.
And I was like, oh, okay.
And I was like, oh, these arebeautiful, colorful.
(01:21):
And then my youngest daughterwhen we got back to the place,
she was like Dad, look, there'sa rainbow eucalyptus tree in
front of the place.
We're staying.
I was like oh, that's amazing.
And then Taj posts on Facebookan article about rainbow
eucalyptus trees literally thenext day.
I hadn't talked to him in 20years.
I was like man, I should reallyreach out to him.
A couple days later we're backin LA.
(01:44):
I get an email Monday morning.
New balance drops a rainboweucalyptus edition.
I was like one.
I got a bid on the shoes.
I didn't win the bid, but I didsort of take the opportunity to
reach back to Taj, and we havebeen rolling deep ever since on
Full Spectrum Capital and so,all to say, feel deep in
(02:08):
community.
I do a lot of work with NormaWong and Collective Acceleration
.
She's been a guest on ourpodcast and part of our podcast
with Belinda, and I started wasright around.
I had just finished readingEmergent Strategy and you were
talking about right relationshipand murmuration and that was
(02:31):
really the inspiration of a lotof our podcasts, and there was
something specific that you saidabout right relationship that
really helped bring it home,which was about proximity what's
the distance and how are weaware of that distance and so I
would love for you, just as anopening frame, to just talk a
(02:57):
little bit about proximity andthen we'll go ahead and pull a
card and sort of jump into therest of the conversation
beautiful.
Belinda Liu (03:05):
Well, first I just had to go immediately go look at
rainbow eucalyptus and I waslike, ah, I'm so glad you
introduced me to this beautifultree.
Oh, I hope everyone goes andlooks at it.
I'm always just stunned by whatwe could be doing with our time
, which is running around theentire world looking at all the
pretty trees.
I am in close proximity to atree, a red maple, that is in my
(03:30):
backyard at Durham, northCarolina, which has been
teaching me a ton aboutrelationship and what it means
to be in right relationship witha place, like a place, a
location that isn't changing allthe time.
And it has me thinking abouthow often in my life I have been
(03:51):
overwhelmed by things that werebeyond my proximity, that were
beyond my reach, that werebeyond my community's reach, and
I think there's a way thatcapitalism and colonization and
all these major systems veryintentionally pull our attention
away from the places where weare and we live and we can make
(04:12):
a difference.
So one of the best ways I thinkthat we can return to right
relationship with ourselves andwith our communities and with
the earth is by bringingourselves back into right
relationship with what's aroundus, and I think a lot about that
.
It's like who can I drive towithout GPS?
(04:32):
Who do I have over to my homeregularly?
Who are the people who are intime proximity if that makes
sense Like the people that Iwould talk to daily?
So there hasn't been muchdistance between the last time
we spoke and the time that we'respeaking again and there's
almost a sense of livingconcurrently, being wrapped up
(04:52):
in each other's lives.
It's a smaller circle than Ihad earlier in my life and it's
a deeper circle where I canreally feel myself changing and
I can feel myself changing inrelationship to other people
changing, and you know, there'sso much change happening in the
world right now and it'sactually quite overwhelming.
And I keep thinking about how Iremember Angel Keota Williams
(05:17):
saying this years ago ReverendAngel, talking about how we have
all this technology that allowsus to know what's happening
with each other, but we have notdeveloped the spiritual
technology to actually handleall of that incoming data and
incoming trauma and incomingcrisis, and that's really stuck
(05:38):
with me.
That I'm really like okay.
So I think part of my job is todevelop that spiritual
technology and it has to stillstart small.
When I receive new news I haveto come back into myself.
How do I feel, what do I think,what do I understand, what do I
know, what do I believe aboutwhat I've just taken in?
(05:59):
And then how does it impact theworld around me, the people I
love, the people I care about,and how does it impact the earth
itself?
And you know, the place wherewe are interconnected to
everything is the earth itself.
So there's nothing happening onearth that is not my business,
because it is happening to thisplanet and on this planet.
(06:22):
That is my home, and so I holdit all that way.
And then I'm like, okay, I'mstill in a little murmuration,
I'm still in a little flock here, so my little murmuration is
going to take this and do thiswith it.
You know, we've got thegenocide unfolding in Gaza and
in my little murmuration, inDurham we passed a ceasefire
(06:43):
resolution, right, and we have acommunity of people that are
coming together to support eachother, support the Palestinian
folks in our community, andcontinue to push.
And it's a way that we can bein right relationship, while
still being in relationship tothose who we are in proximity
with.
Because it's like, okay, both,how do we stop genocide there?
And also what are the things wecan bring home and apply and
(07:06):
learn here.
Omar Brownson (07:07):
So I love um, reverend angel kira williams.
Like my favorite line, um isthat no change is possible
without inner change.
No change matters withoutcollective change.
And again, it's just that,weaving between the inner and
the collective.
And one practice that youshared I love is just where can
(07:31):
you go without your GPS?
And we've become so reliant onthis little thing to tell us how
to navigate and where to go tonavigate and where to go.
Belinda Liu (07:43):
I love how you're bringing the personal into the
work that you do and it's veryinterconnected.
And I'm curious, in thisparticular moment in your day
and this time, what is thequestion or an intention that's
really like alive for you?
You know, in this space we getan opportunity to like kind of
(08:06):
go into your world, like be inyour room with you in Durham,
which I grew up in NorthCarolina, so very familiar with
that area.
Yes, I love that you're there.
Yeah, so, in everything that'shappening right now and I know
you hold a lot of space forpeople to be with the chaos and
(08:28):
also still find freedom andgrounding in that and in this
very moment, what is reallypresent for you right now, and
we're going to call, in thespirit of gratitude blooming, to
see what wants to emerge aroundthat question as a practice and
weave the conversation fromthere.
(08:51):
One of the biggest questions Ifeel like I've been sitting with
is, I think it's how to hold onto our complexity and hold on
to each other when there's a lotof different perspectives and a
lot of different strategies,and a lot of different
strategies and a lot ofdifferent ways we could go.
How do we hold on to each other,hold on to each other's dignity
(09:12):
as we find our way forward?
A lot of what I experienced iswe really internalized you know,
we've lived in such a conflictzone for such a long time and
we've internalized that so often, whenever there's even the
slightest difference, we leapall the way into conflict
(09:37):
without seeking understanding,without seeking conflict
resolution, without seekingmediation, without curiosity,
seeking conflict resolutionwithout seeking mediation,
without curiosity.
Um, and I feel that in ourpolitical and social realm right
now that, like we have a lot todo and we have a long way to go
and we need a lot of differentways of getting there, but I
(09:59):
don't know, I don't know how wehold it all and hold each other
to achieve the scale you knowthat we actually need in order
to make some of these changes.
Omar Brownson (10:10):
So I'm going to share my screen and gratitude
blooming cards created by theartist Arlene Kim Suda and her
hundred days of blooming lovepractice, where the plants spoke
a word to her.
So the art that you will see isher art and the word that the
(10:31):
plant spoke to her.
And so, in some ways, thequestion that you asked, we like
to almost think of that you'regetting to ask the plant world,
uh, this question like how do wehold on to, uh, complexity in
the face of conflict?
And you know partly why.
You're looking at the backs ofthe cards, and this comes from
(10:52):
Norma Wong's practice too, whichis, like practice is anything
that disrupts habit, andrandomness is a great way to
practice our habit of wanting toknow everything right and to
already have sort of an answerbefore we even sort of let the
question sit for a second.
So there's seven rows and sixcolumns.
(11:14):
We've now done this withthousands of people in hundreds
of gratitude circles, hundredsof gratitude circles, and so,
holding on to complexity in theface of conflict.
Seven rows, six columns.
I'll scroll and you just tell mewhen to stop this row.
(11:36):
Okay.
Belinda Liu (11:38):
And then one through six.
Omar Brownson (11:38):
This card, this number here, yeah, okay, let's
see what Mama Earth wants totell us.
Ooh.
So this is card number three therose representing the theme of
choice.
So this is the word that cameto Arlene when she illustrated
this rose.
(11:58):
The prompt is are you facing adecision right now?
Try to be grateful for thechoices available to you.
What does your heart want tochoose?
So one of the things that weinvite folks to do is to first
focus on the art and just sortof describe what you see and
just is there anything in theart that speaks to the question
that you asked?
Belinda Liu (12:21):
Well, before I even get into the art, I have to say
I'm really moved by this.
I just did a writing retreat inireland with a bunch of young
writers queer bipoc writers andthe theme of the entire week was
roses.
Like, no matter where we turned, no matter which way we looked,
everything was a rose.
The random harpist who came wasnamed roysin, which is rose,
(12:46):
and the oil that we all weregiven to take away was rose oil.
So rose is like I want to beteaching you adrian um and what
I see.
The drawing, you know it's abeautiful, looks like a pencil
line drawing of um, a rose, butjust a singular branch coming up
that then splits into multiplebranches, which I love, because
(13:07):
that automatically speaks to thething I'm I'm seeking, which is
like how do we remember that wehave one root, that we're one
singular branch going in allthese different directions?
And then for the majority ofthe branches that are splitting
off, for the um, yeah, the, the,is it branches?
They're splitting off, wouldyou?
Stems, I guess, like the stemsare coming up and splitting,
(13:29):
yeah.
So for the majority of those,what we see is just the leaves
of the rosebush, and thenthere's one at the very, very
tip top.
It's got the tiniest little bud.
Something is beginning there atthe very top, and then there's
one rose that's like, bloomed,you know, sort of opened and, um
, not fully wide but like on itsway.
(13:51):
So that really resonates to metoo, the idea that, like, we're
on many paths and each one isactually in a different place in
its development.
Um, and letting that be humbling, like it's like, oh, we're not
all even in the same stage ofwhat we're developing, what
we're trying to grow, and so,even though we're connected the
(14:12):
root, we're actually alllearning at different paces and
in different directions.
Um, and the healthy rosebushlooks like that kind of
cacophony of growth and stagesall happening at the same time.
I just had rose bushes put intomy backyard as well, and you
know, just, this process of budto bloom, bud to bloom is
(14:34):
amazing and yeah, it's a stonebeautiful process.
I'm like, oh, I can see thebeauty of that growth and that
development all the way out tothe petals falling to the ground
, and I bring that into thechoices that are available to us
now, where there's some thingsthat are just blooming, some
things we're just learning howto do, some things we're pretty
(14:55):
good at, and all of it's goingto fall down, and there's beauty
in all of that.
Omar Brownson (15:03):
I just planted six rose bushes myself, and I
have been you know, after itblooms, you prune it right, and
then what I've also been doingis been drying the rose petals
and creating all these likepotpourri um moments throughout
the house and you know, justgoing back to your question
(15:26):
around complexity in the face ofconflict, I can't help also to
think about the thorns on a roseand this sort of balance
between what are we protecting,you know, and what are we
letting kind of bloom and whendo we need to prune.
So I don't know if any of thosesort of elements.
Belinda Liu (15:45):
I love this because I didn't even see the thorns.
I was like, yeah, no thorns,but that's a very Adrienne
worldview.
Yeah, I think the thorns are soimportant, like being able to
protect something beautiful andalive is so crucial.
I also really love this ideathat you know each rosebush is a
(16:06):
little different, evenrosebushes that come like where
everything is the same and itshould grow exactly the same,
but each one's going to grow alittle bit differently.
There's always complexity inthe garden, so, yeah, that that
feels like good and I reallylike this idea of being grateful
for the choices available.
Like on this picture there'sone of the stems that kind of
(16:31):
branches off that has no thornson it and it's got.
You got a rose, bush, that'salready kind of you know a rose
that's already bloomed.
I think that's important right,like when I think about the
folks who are like I'm gonna godown the path that we've already
walked many times, wherethere's already something at the
end and that is familiar to me.
So I think it'd be like totalprocess or something like that,
(16:52):
where it's like we're just gonnago this way, it's relatively
smooth, we kind of know whatwe're gonna get.
Um, and then the other stem iscontinuing upward and that's
where the thorns begin and it'slike, oh, what would it take to
actually get to the top, wherethere's just something blooming.
We don't even know what it'sgoing to be yet, and I think
that's actually the way.
Um, my heart wants to move.
(17:13):
You know, is is constantlytowards that.
Well, what?
adrienne maree brown (17:17):
this way seems harder, but it's the way
of possibility versus the way ofthe known, and there have to be
people who are holding down theway of the known and there have
to be people who are holdingdown the way of possibility
(17:42):
cards and they representdifferent seasons, and I
remember when arlene and I wereum sifting through her hundreds,
her literally hundredillustrations and trying to
prioritize, you know, the setthat would go with the theme of
gratitude, we were like, well,is it too, you know, monotonous
to have three cards of the roseand, and what was interesting
was, each one represents adifferent season of the rose,
(18:04):
and this one for choice isactually the spring rose, where
it's just starting to come, andI'm hearing what you're saying.
It's reminding me, too, of ourrelationship with time In modern
culture.
We've really lost that patienceand that awareness of the
change that is always happening,that nature is always trying to
(18:26):
remind us of constantly,especially when you live in
places that have seasons.
You know, I know, durhamdefinitely has some distinct
seasons.
We got the humidity there inthe summer.
Yeah, we've got storm season inthe summer, that storm season.
So I'm curious for youpersonally as a sacred activist,
as someone who is a creator youhad, you created your own deck
(18:48):
as well, you know and as someonethat like has written, like
several books, what is yourrelationship like with seasons
and time and in the way that youcultivate that in all these
different layers of who you are?
Belinda Liu (19:02):
It's interesting.
I just am doing the final editson the final novella in this
trilogy I've been working on.
The final novella is calledAncestors.
The trilogy is the Grieverstrilogy, and I decided to
structure the entire thingaround seasons and I'd always
had a suspicion that that's howthis was supposed to be held or
(19:25):
how it's supposed to be seen,and it's because so much of my
life has, like seasons havebecome so important to me.
I lived briefly in Californiaand I actually had to leave
because the seasons didn't feeldistinct enough for me and I
went to Detroit and I was like,hey, these seasons are too
distinct for me, I needsomething in between.
And so Durham feels like rightnow, the kind of perfect in
(19:47):
between, where things don't gettoo extreme but there's a ton of
beauty and my work happensdifferently in different seasons
.
But I want to share that inthis.
I talk about summer is theseason to keep turning, fall is
the season to compost, winter isthe season to connect
underground, and then spring isthe season to create and like,
(20:13):
if you follow that, you know,then I'm like oh, we're humans,
are always in our own seasonstoo.
And there's, you know, I've beeninterviewing all these people
about what time is it on theclock of the world, which is a
question that my mentor, graceLee Boggs, used to ask us, and
she was a Chinese, americanactivist who threw down with the
(20:33):
black labor movement in Detroitand a lot of people are saying
it's a time of endings.
You know it's a time of lettinggo, know it's a time of letting
go, it's a time of change, andso how do you hold on to spring
in those moments and I thinkthat's part of the work we're in
right now is, like you know,fall heading into winter.
You're throwing down seeds,you're putting bulbs into the
(20:55):
dirt and you are kind of prayingthat, like on the other side of
winter, after everything,everything is doing its work
underground, that the springwill come and things that you
seeded, things that youcomposted, things you released,
things that you prayed over,will come into bloom in the
spring.
And in some ways, the wholecycle is orienting around like
(21:17):
okay, like if we let go, we getspring, if we don't let go.
you know we might not getseasons anymore.
You know, the climatecatastrophes that are coming our
way right now indicate thatwe're not going to have seasons
we can count on.
In the same way, and because wehave created such chaos in the
climate and I feel myself bothgrieving that and also really
(21:41):
curious about how I, how I willadapt right, what will be the
new seasons?
How will I be a part of shapingthat?
How will the poets make newsense of the seasons?
And yeah, it's a lot for me.
And you know, then, I have thisbook coming in August, loving
Corrections.
It's coming out and I keepthinking about that.
(22:03):
There's also a seasonal aspectto that text and there's a set
of poems or spells that arearound the equinox and the
solstices that I included inthat text because it feels like
one of the grandest lovingcorrections of the structure of
humanity on earth is that welive inside of a seasonal world
(22:25):
and so, even when things seemthe most bleak and the most
hopeless, even when we can't seeour way out, even when it seems
like the ice is never going tothaw, spring is coming.
Spring is still on its way andit's, it's what we're planting
now, um, and that always helpsme.
It really helps me when we'rein moments where I'm like, oh,
(22:48):
sometimes it's generational.
You know, I come from a peoplethat were enslaved.
Our winter lasted a long time.
Our spring has been fiery, youknow, um it explosive, um, and
it's still unfolding, but right,so you can start to see.
So, for me, I see time that way.
(23:08):
But I'm like if there wasn't acycle, I don't know how I would
maintain my forward motion, butthe fact that I know that
there's a cycle keeps me movingforward keeps me moving forward.
adrienne maree brown (23:26):
How did you unfurl in this collection of
this work, like in this currentiteration, like what was that
process?
Like?
I feel like sometimes we onlysee the beauty of the finished
product and I just want to hearabout the journey of that
unfolding, because I thinkthat's so inspiring in the way
of like how you lived themedicine of that book.
Belinda Liu (23:44):
It's so interesting .
For years I was a facilitator.
My work was facilitatingmovement spaces and that's I was
traveling around the country.
I worked with black organizing,I worked with climate justice
organizers, I worked withreproductive justice organizers,
indigenous organizers, directaction folks you know all these
different communities and Ithink a lot of the essays are
(24:07):
rooted in moments inside of thatfacilitation when, as a
facilitator, I'm holding thespace and seeing the patterns
and trying to help thiscommunity move through the eye
of a needle over and over again,it's like there's only there's
something that you know that'sone of the big quotes from Taj
James in the book is there's aconversation that only these
(24:29):
people in this moment could havefind it.
And that's so much of how Iworked as a facilitator.
But there's also part of mymind that was like what would I
call this pattern?
And if I was trying to correctit on a larger level, what would
I call this pattern?
How would I speak about it?
So a lot of the essays come fromthat place of being like I
really see this pattern amongstwhite people.
(24:50):
I'm going to write a word forwhite people.
I really see this patternamongst men, both in the
organizing world and the menthat so many of the women I love
are partnered with, and I wantto talk about relinquishing the
patriarchy.
They come from very personallived experiences.
I can trace back to thememories.
I can trace back to placeswhere I felt a lot of anger or
(25:11):
discontent or frustration.
So the first part of our book Icall ruminations, because it's
really like digging into theseplaces that can be felt as
negative and discomfort andfinding the wisdom in them,
finding the thing we alreadyknow about them and trying to
find the most loving way tocommunicate that.
Because I also think that theearth is an abundant place that
(25:33):
is trying to love us in amillion ways every day and I
think that the way we changetogether is with love.
I don't think that peoplechange that much through shame
and through bullying or throughbeing torn apart publicly.
If any of those things workedto yield justice, I might have a
different perspective, butthat's not what I see emerge
(25:54):
from those behaviors.
What I do see happen is thatwhen people are in a community
and when there's space wherepeople will be honest with them
and where we can have honestconversations about how these
systems live inside of each ofus, then more becomes possible.
So the first section is likeruminating, trying to take these
things that seem negative andturn them into wisdom.
The second half is memorations,which is really a study, like a
(26:18):
murmuration, on accountability,Like what would it look like to
get in a formation ofaccountability?
It was a pleasure to write thesethings and to feel like there's
something that I know.
There's a lot that I don't know, but there's something that I
know and I think it's collective.
There's some things that weactually do know.
I'm really grateful for thetiming, because the political
(26:40):
landscape inside the U?
S right now is so fraught andchaotic and I didn't know that
the book was going to come inthis moment when I was writing
it.
You know, you never quite knowlike, okay, I'm going to finish
this book and we'll see whenit's going to come out.
But I'm really grateful it'scoming out now because,
regardless of what happens inthis election, there's things
that we know and we're not goingto backslide on and there's
(27:02):
things that we're going to keepmoving forward, and I'm a big
believer that the elections arenot the centerpiece of our
political organizing and theelectoral process is not a
political home.
So I'm really grateful to offerto people like here's some
things we actually know andwe're going to keep knowing them
next year and the year afterand for the duration of our
lives.
Omar Brownson (27:22):
Let's jump off from this place do you have the
book with you?
If there was a spell that youwanted to read in this moment
that is maybe taking inspirationfrom the rose or the theme of
choice, and I love that springkind of entered into this
(27:43):
conversation as well.
It just feels, and I just now Ialso have just this mental
image of you being that top budthat's just at the edges and
pushing possibility forward.
Belinda Liu (27:59):
I got a spell for the spring equinox which might
be the right one for this moment.
adrienne maree brown (28:05):
So why?
Belinda Liu (28:05):
don't.
We try it and we'll see whatcomes.
Let us remind the world howmany shades of green there are,
how together we look like lifeitself.
How tender the dirt gets in thespring.
How tender the dirt gets in thespring.
(28:28):
Let us burst open onemultitudinous bud unfurled by
that internal pressure of petal,right, yes, and soft, you will
learn to inhale us.
Let us punch out from the eartha lava bright and abundant
dreams of tomorrow flowing,molten and free, turning
ignorance to ash.
Let us act like we've got someroots, know that we are held
(28:50):
deeply Even as we dance towardthe golden breast of the sun.
Life delectable again.
Let us remind ourselves thatlife moves ever towards life.
This is the season of ournectar Beloveds.
This is the season worth thesting.
Omar Brownson (29:17):
Thank you, I love the.
You talked about the green inthe beginning and I think the
human eye can distinguish morecolors of green than any other
color.
And then how that life sort ofseeks life.
I just feel like that'slife-seeking life when we can
(29:37):
look at what is green in all ofits sort of gradient.
That was beautiful.
Belinda Liu (29:41):
Thank you, and apparently like we have nothing
on turtles.
Turtles can see like so manymore distinct variations of
green, which I also love, like.
I love the idea that like oh,we, we see the world this way.
I just saw something the otherday that was like here's how a
sparrow looks to us and here'show a sparrow looks to a sparrow
(30:02):
and to a sparrow they all looklike those rainbow eucalyptus.
They're just a wide array ofmagic but we don't know how to
see their magic.
But hopefully we can hone ourability to see our own.
adrienne maree brown (30:17):
Well, I have one inquiry for you.
Around, as people listen tothis conversation and they feel
you and your journey and whatyou're sharing from this place
of like wisdom and deepexperience like what's, what do
you feel like is one thing thathas really helped you stay
(30:39):
grounded in the chaos.
I feel like you've kind ofgiven a few like breadcrumbs for
us, and I'd just love to hearif there's anything else,
because I feel like that'sreally what people need right
now is that reminder of notgoing into despair, that there
is still agency, there's freedom, there's love, there's beauty,
(31:01):
there's all the things.
And so what's your personalpractice that has really helped
you be with the chaos and stillbe centered?
Belinda Liu (31:13):
I really love this question.
Lately I've been singing a lotand writing a lot of poems and I
find the creative process forme is how I compost the
overwhelm and the grief and thedespair and the fight, like all
those intense emotions, thedesire to have everyone be
(31:35):
different.
Already I can process thatthrough myself as a song.
It's like I take in all of itand it's moving through me and
if I give myself the time andspace to feel it, what comes
forth is a song, or what comesforward as a poem or what comes
forward as a spell, and it'slike, in that way I know I have
fully felt this thing, I fullylet myself be with, um,
(31:59):
something that's true, somethingthat's actually true.
I'm always trying to figure outhow to let my art bring me as
close to the truth as possible.
Like I feel like, if I'm avisionary, I want to be a
visionary of like what is, youknow, like I feel like what will
be emerges from what is andwhat.
I'm willing to practice, and soI'm always practicing like I'm,
(32:19):
like I can feel this because itis real, it is true, so I can
handle it.
And and then, once I feel it,what?
What can I make from this?
What can I?
What changes in me, um, andbecause I'm an artist, what
changes in me is usuallysomething gets created, um, but
I highly recommend it to peopleto have some way that you're
(32:39):
think of yourself as a compostbin.
It's like my job is to take allof this and make something of
it, and then what I make mightbe a poem, it might be a direct
action, it might be a sign, itmight be a book, it might be a
child.
A lot of things get compostedinto this world and become life
(33:00):
again.
So, yeah, I think that's thepractice I want to offer today.
Omar Brownson (33:05):
Yeah, I love the idea that it's creativity, it's
the choice, right, going back tothe card to create in the face
of complexity, in the face ofpain, in the face of what might
feel easier right, the path thatdoesn't have any thorns might
(33:26):
feel easier.
Right, the the path thatdoesn't have any thorns.
But like, recognizing that like, and that not making a choice
is a choice, right, like I thinkalways people remind, like, oh,
I don't have a choice.
Like, no, no, that is a choice.
Um, and and and you know, andwith the practice of gratitude,
we always say that it reallybegins by giving, not by
receiving, and so choice is thatthing that we give ourselves to
(33:49):
sort of say, like, how do wewant to wake up today?
Well, if there's anything elseyou would love to share about
your new book, congratulations.
Belinda Liu (33:57):
We can't wait to read it, digest it it comes out
August 20th, I will be doing aSouthern driving tour and I'll
be doing a few virtual eventsfor it as well, so people can
dive into it with me.
I'm really looking forward tothat.
And you know, the biggest,biggest gratitude I think of my
(34:18):
life is that I get to be awriter in this life, so I'm
really grateful that y'all hadme on here to talk about that.
I get to be a writer in thislife, so I'm really grateful
that y'all had me on here totalk about what I get to do.
I'm grateful.
adrienne maree brown (34:30):
I'm guessing we can all find the
links to the events and the bookand on your website,
adriamariebrowncom.
Belinda Liu (34:38):
Yeah, so adriamariebrowncom, and then on
my Instagram.
Those are the best places tokind of figure out what's
happening with me.
Omar Brownson (34:46):
Your Instagram has the best meme game out there
.
Thank you I definitely repostas frequently as I can, and so
if you are into memes, if you'reinto beauty and spirit and
spells and wisdom, yes, andthere's nothing like a good meme
(35:09):
.
It's just really Well that too,is a composting act.
Belinda Liu (35:13):
Right Like I'm?
Like I'm feeling so much rightnow, what can I do with it?
And then I make these littlecarousels that feel kind of like
meme poems or something, andthen I feel better afterwards, I
feel more connected and I love.
I love as people react to themand are just like oh my God, you
know they get it.
It makes you feel less alone,you know.
So I'm trying to figure outways to use the internet that
(35:34):
don't detract or suck away lifefrom me, and I find that having
really good filters you know,training my algorithm to show me
magic, wonder, beauty and loveand justice and solution, and
then putting these memes out hasme I feel like I've gained the
system a little bit.
Omar Brownson (35:54):
I love the idea of training the algorithms you
know oh yeah, I'm like, this ismy world.
adrienne maree brown (35:59):
Exactly, and I do have to say the way
that you bring joy andauthenticity has affected a lot
of people in my world Exactly,and I do have to say the way
that you bring joy andauthenticity has affected a lot
of people in my life, like Iremember at our retreat center
in Mount Shasta, california, acouple community members like
bringing the book and reading iton our land pleasure activism
(36:19):
and they were like, oh my God,this is such a reframe from like
how hard it feels and how tiredI am, and so it's just amazing
that, um, yeah, how manypeople's lives you've changed
with that reframe you know likewe can look at this differently.
Belinda Liu (36:39):
You know, we can approach it feels like that was
what was in the car too, likecan you be grateful for the
choice.
You know, even sometimes I'llfeel that in my heartbreak I'm
like, oh, I have a heart, howwonderful you know I have.
I'm still, I'm not numb to this, I'm still alive, feeling it,
and oh, how good that is.
What a what a joy it is toactually get to be alive, to
(37:00):
feel grief, right.
Omar Brownson (37:02):
Super honored to have you join us.
Wish you blessings and freedomand security and joy and all the
abundance as you continue toshare your spirit to the world.
So thank you.
Belinda Liu (37:19):
Thank you both so much.
I look forward to more and more.
Hello Belinda.
adrienne maree brown (00:09):
Hey Omar.
Omar Brownson (00:11):
So excited that we get to have the Adrienne
Marie Brown on the podcast today.
I read your book, emergentStrategy in 2020.
I was feeling a very parallelmoment, wherever, somewhere, you
were writing it and my dearfriend taj his name, was all
(00:35):
over the book.
Uh, he and I go back to collegedays.
Um, we cut our teeth onenvironmental justice organizing
and we were young people and atthat time, young people
organizing on environmentaljustice was like all three rails
that philanthropy wouldn'ttouch and that's what we were
(00:59):
doing.
We hadn't talked in forever.
Then I was on maui and I was,um, going on the road to hana.
We were listening to this uh,audio sort of tour and the guide
was like take a turn here andtake a look at these rainbow
eucalyptus trees.
And I was like, oh, okay.
And I was like, oh, these arebeautiful, colorful.
(01:21):
And then my youngest daughterwhen we got back to the place,
she was like Dad, look, there'sa rainbow eucalyptus tree in
front of the place.
We're staying.
I was like oh, that's amazing.
And then Taj posts on Facebookan article about rainbow
eucalyptus trees literally thenext day.
I hadn't talked to him in 20years.
I was like man, I should reallyreach out to him.
A couple days later we're backin LA.
(01:44):
I get an email Monday morning.
New balance drops a rainboweucalyptus edition.
I was like one.
I got a bid on the shoes.
I didn't win the bid, but I didsort of take the opportunity to
reach back to Taj, and we havebeen rolling deep ever since on
Full Spectrum Capital and so,all to say, feel deep in
(02:08):
community.
I do a lot of work with NormaWong and Collective Acceleration
.
She's been a guest on ourpodcast and part of our podcast
with Belinda, and I started wasright around.
I had just finished readingEmergent Strategy and you were
talking about right relationshipand murmuration and that was
(02:31):
really the inspiration of a lotof our podcasts, and there was
something specific that you saidabout right relationship that
really helped bring it home,which was about proximity what's
the distance and how are weaware of that distance and so I
would love for you, just as anopening frame, to just talk a
(02:57):
little bit about proximity andthen we'll go ahead and pull a
card and sort of jump into therest of the conversation
beautiful.
Belinda Liu (03:05):
Well, first I just had to go immediately go look at
rainbow eucalyptus and I waslike, ah, I'm so glad you
introduced me to this beautifultree.
Oh, I hope everyone goes andlooks at it.
I'm always just stunned by whatwe could be doing with our time
, which is running around theentire world looking at all the
pretty trees.
I am in close proximity to atree, a red maple, that is in my
(03:30):
backyard at Durham, northCarolina, which has been
teaching me a ton aboutrelationship and what it means
to be in right relationship witha place, like a place, a
location that isn't changing allthe time.
And it has me thinking abouthow often in my life I have been
(03:51):
overwhelmed by things that werebeyond my proximity, that were
beyond my reach, that werebeyond my community's reach, and
I think there's a way thatcapitalism and colonization and
all these major systems veryintentionally pull our attention
away from the places where weare and we live and we can make
(04:12):
a difference.
So one of the best ways I thinkthat we can return to right
relationship with ourselves andwith our communities and with
the earth is by bringingourselves back into right
relationship with what's aroundus, and I think a lot about that
.
It's like who can I drive towithout GPS?
(04:32):
Who do I have over to my homeregularly?
Who are the people who are intime proximity if that makes
sense Like the people that Iwould talk to daily?
So there hasn't been muchdistance between the last time
we spoke and the time that we'respeaking again and there's
almost a sense of livingconcurrently, being wrapped up
(04:52):
in each other's lives.
It's a smaller circle than Ihad earlier in my life and it's
a deeper circle where I canreally feel myself changing and
I can feel myself changing inrelationship to other people
changing, and you know, there'sso much change happening in the
world right now and it'sactually quite overwhelming.
And I keep thinking about how Iremember Angel Keota Williams
(05:17):
saying this years ago ReverendAngel, talking about how we have
all this technology that allowsus to know what's happening
with each other, but we have notdeveloped the spiritual
technology to actually handleall of that incoming data and
incoming trauma and incomingcrisis, and that's really stuck
(05:38):
with me.
That I'm really like okay.
So I think part of my job is todevelop that spiritual
technology and it has to stillstart small.
When I receive new news I haveto come back into myself.
How do I feel, what do I think,what do I understand, what do I
know, what do I believe aboutwhat I've just taken in?
(05:59):
And then how does it impact theworld around me, the people I
love, the people I care about,and how does it impact the earth
itself?
And you know, the place wherewe are interconnected to
everything is the earth itself.
So there's nothing happening onearth that is not my business,
because it is happening to thisplanet and on this planet.
(06:22):
That is my home, and so I holdit all that way.
And then I'm like, okay, I'mstill in a little murmuration,
I'm still in a little flock here, so my little murmuration is
going to take this and do thiswith it.
You know, we've got thegenocide unfolding in Gaza and
in my little murmuration, inDurham we passed a ceasefire
(06:43):
resolution, right, and we have acommunity of people that are
coming together to support eachother, support the Palestinian
folks in our community, andcontinue to push.
And it's a way that we can bein right relationship, while
still being in relationship tothose who we are in proximity
with.
Because it's like, okay, both,how do we stop genocide there?
And also what are the things wecan bring home and apply and
(07:06):
learn here.
Omar Brownson (07:07):
So I love um, reverend angel kira williams.
Like my favorite line, um isthat no change is possible
without inner change.
No change matters withoutcollective change.
And again, it's just that,weaving between the inner and
the collective.
And one practice that youshared I love is just where can
(07:31):
you go without your GPS?
And we've become so reliant onthis little thing to tell us how
to navigate and where to go tonavigate and where to go.
Belinda Liu (07:43):
I love how you're bringing the personal into the
work that you do and it's veryinterconnected.
And I'm curious, in thisparticular moment in your day
and this time, what is thequestion or an intention that's
really like alive for you?
You know, in this space we getan opportunity to like kind of
(08:06):
go into your world, like be inyour room with you in Durham,
which I grew up in NorthCarolina, so very familiar with
that area.
Yes, I love that you're there.
Yeah, so, in everything that'shappening right now and I know
you hold a lot of space forpeople to be with the chaos and
(08:28):
also still find freedom andgrounding in that and in this
very moment, what is reallypresent for you right now, and
we're going to call, in thespirit of gratitude blooming, to
see what wants to emerge aroundthat question as a practice and
weave the conversation fromthere.
(08:51):
One of the biggest questions Ifeel like I've been sitting with
is, I think it's how to hold onto our complexity and hold on
to each other when there's a lotof different perspectives and a
lot of different strategies,and a lot of different
strategies and a lot ofdifferent ways we could go.
How do we hold on to each other,hold on to each other's dignity
(09:12):
as we find our way forward?
A lot of what I experienced iswe really internalized you know,
we've lived in such a conflictzone for such a long time and
we've internalized that so often, whenever there's even the
slightest difference, we leapall the way into conflict
(09:37):
without seeking understanding,without seeking conflict
resolution, without seekingmediation, without curiosity,
seeking conflict resolutionwithout seeking mediation,
without curiosity.
Um, and I feel that in ourpolitical and social realm right
now that, like we have a lot todo and we have a long way to go
and we need a lot of differentways of getting there, but I
(09:59):
don't know, I don't know how wehold it all and hold each other
to achieve the scale you knowthat we actually need in order
to make some of these changes.
Omar Brownson (10:10):
So I'm going to share my screen and gratitude
blooming cards created by theartist Arlene Kim Suda and her
hundred days of blooming lovepractice, where the plants spoke
a word to her.
So the art that you will see isher art and the word that the
(10:31):
plant spoke to her.
And so, in some ways, thequestion that you asked, we like
to almost think of that you'regetting to ask the plant world,
uh, this question like how do wehold on to, uh, complexity in
the face of conflict?
And you know partly why.
You're looking at the backs ofthe cards, and this comes from
(10:52):
Norma Wong's practice too, whichis, like practice is anything
that disrupts habit, andrandomness is a great way to
practice our habit of wanting toknow everything right and to
already have sort of an answerbefore we even sort of let the
question sit for a second.
So there's seven rows and sixcolumns.
(11:14):
We've now done this withthousands of people in hundreds
of gratitude circles, hundredsof gratitude circles, and so,
holding on to complexity in theface of conflict.
Seven rows, six columns.
I'll scroll and you just tell mewhen to stop this row.
(11:36):
Okay.
Belinda Liu (11:38):
And then one through six.
Omar Brownson (11:38):
This card, this number here, yeah, okay, let's
see what Mama Earth wants totell us.
Ooh.
So this is card number three therose representing the theme of
choice.
So this is the word that cameto Arlene when she illustrated
this rose.
(11:58):
The prompt is are you facing adecision right now?
Try to be grateful for thechoices available to you.
What does your heart want tochoose?
So one of the things that weinvite folks to do is to first
focus on the art and just sortof describe what you see and
just is there anything in theart that speaks to the question
that you asked?
Belinda Liu (12:21):
Well, before I even get into the art, I have to say
I'm really moved by this.
I just did a writing retreat inireland with a bunch of young
writers queer bipoc writers andthe theme of the entire week was
roses.
Like, no matter where we turned, no matter which way we looked,
everything was a rose.
The random harpist who came wasnamed roysin, which is rose,
(12:46):
and the oil that we all weregiven to take away was rose oil.
So rose is like I want to beteaching you adrian um and what
I see.
The drawing, you know it's abeautiful, looks like a pencil
line drawing of um, a rose, butjust a singular branch coming up
that then splits into multiplebranches, which I love, because
(13:07):
that automatically speaks to thething I'm I'm seeking, which is
like how do we remember that wehave one root, that we're one
singular branch going in allthese different directions?
And then for the majority ofthe branches that are splitting
off, for the um, yeah, the, the,is it branches?
They're splitting off, wouldyou?
Stems, I guess, like the stemsare coming up and splitting,
(13:29):
yeah.
So for the majority of those,what we see is just the leaves
of the rosebush, and thenthere's one at the very, very
tip top.
It's got the tiniest little bud.
Something is beginning there atthe very top, and then there's
one rose that's like, bloomed,you know, sort of opened and, um
, not fully wide but like on itsway.
(13:51):
So that really resonates to metoo, the idea that, like, we're
on many paths and each one isactually in a different place in
its development.
Um, and letting that be humbling, like it's like, oh, we're not
all even in the same stage ofwhat we're developing, what
we're trying to grow, and so,even though we're connected the
(14:12):
root, we're actually alllearning at different paces and
in different directions.
Um, and the healthy rosebushlooks like that kind of
cacophony of growth and stagesall happening at the same time.
I just had rose bushes put intomy backyard as well, and you
know, just, this process of budto bloom, bud to bloom is
(14:34):
amazing and yeah, it's a stonebeautiful process.
I'm like, oh, I can see thebeauty of that growth and that
development all the way out tothe petals falling to the ground
, and I bring that into thechoices that are available to us
now, where there's some thingsthat are just blooming, some
things we're just learning howto do, some things we're pretty
(14:55):
good at, and all of it's goingto fall down, and there's beauty
in all of that.
Omar Brownson (15:03):
I just planted six rose bushes myself, and I
have been you know, after itblooms, you prune it right, and
then what I've also been doingis been drying the rose petals
and creating all these likepotpourri um moments throughout
the house and you know, justgoing back to your question
(15:26):
around complexity in the face ofconflict, I can't help also to
think about the thorns on a roseand this sort of balance
between what are we protecting,you know, and what are we
letting kind of bloom and whendo we need to prune.
So I don't know if any of thosesort of elements.
Belinda Liu (15:45):
I love this because I didn't even see the thorns.
I was like, yeah, no thorns,but that's a very Adrienne
worldview.
Yeah, I think the thorns are soimportant, like being able to
protect something beautiful andalive is so crucial.
I also really love this ideathat you know each rosebush is a
(16:06):
little different, evenrosebushes that come like where
everything is the same and itshould grow exactly the same,
but each one's going to grow alittle bit differently.
There's always complexity inthe garden, so, yeah, that that
feels like good and I reallylike this idea of being grateful
for the choices available.
Like on this picture there'sone of the stems that kind of
(16:31):
branches off that has no thornson it and it's got.
You got a rose, bush, that'salready kind of you know a rose
that's already bloomed.
I think that's important right,like when I think about the
folks who are like I'm gonna godown the path that we've already
walked many times, wherethere's already something at the
end and that is familiar to me.
So I think it'd be like totalprocess or something like that,
(16:52):
where it's like we're just gonnago this way, it's relatively
smooth, we kind of know whatwe're gonna get.
Um, and then the other stem iscontinuing upward and that's
where the thorns begin and it'slike, oh, what would it take to
actually get to the top, wherethere's just something blooming.
We don't even know what it'sgoing to be yet, and I think
that's actually the way.
Um, my heart wants to move.
(17:13):
You know, is is constantlytowards that.
Well, what?
adrienne maree brown (17:17):
this way seems harder, but it's the way
of possibility versus the way ofthe known, and there have to be
people who are holding down theway of the known and there have
to be people who are holdingdown the way of possibility
(17:42):
cards and they representdifferent seasons, and I
remember when arlene and I wereum sifting through her hundreds,
her literally hundredillustrations and trying to
prioritize, you know, the setthat would go with the theme of
gratitude, we were like, well,is it too, you know, monotonous
to have three cards of the roseand, and what was interesting
was, each one represents adifferent season of the rose,
(18:04):
and this one for choice isactually the spring rose, where
it's just starting to come, andI'm hearing what you're saying.
It's reminding me, too, of ourrelationship with time In modern
culture.
We've really lost that patienceand that awareness of the
change that is always happening,that nature is always trying to
(18:26):
remind us of constantly,especially when you live in
places that have seasons.
You know, I know, durhamdefinitely has some distinct
seasons.
We got the humidity there inthe summer.
Yeah, we've got storm season inthe summer, that storm season.
So I'm curious for youpersonally as a sacred activist,
as someone who is a creator youhad, you created your own deck
(18:48):
as well, you know and as someonethat like has written, like
several books, what is yourrelationship like with seasons
and time and in the way that youcultivate that in all these
different layers of who you are?
Belinda Liu (19:02):
It's interesting.
I just am doing the final editson the final novella in this
trilogy I've been working on.
The final novella is calledAncestors.
The trilogy is the Grieverstrilogy, and I decided to
structure the entire thingaround seasons and I'd always
had a suspicion that that's howthis was supposed to be held or
(19:25):
how it's supposed to be seen,and it's because so much of my
life has, like seasons havebecome so important to me.
I lived briefly in Californiaand I actually had to leave
because the seasons didn't feeldistinct enough for me and I
went to Detroit and I was like,hey, these seasons are too
distinct for me, I needsomething in between.
And so Durham feels like rightnow, the kind of perfect in
(19:47):
between, where things don't gettoo extreme but there's a ton of
beauty and my work happensdifferently in different seasons
.
But I want to share that inthis.
I talk about summer is theseason to keep turning, fall is
the season to compost, winter isthe season to connect
underground, and then spring isthe season to create and like,
(20:13):
if you follow that, you know,then I'm like oh, we're humans,
are always in our own seasonstoo.
And there's, you know, I've beeninterviewing all these people
about what time is it on theclock of the world, which is a
question that my mentor, graceLee Boggs, used to ask us, and
she was a Chinese, americanactivist who threw down with the
(20:33):
black labor movement in Detroitand a lot of people are saying
it's a time of endings.
You know it's a time of lettinggo, know it's a time of letting
go, it's a time of change, andso how do you hold on to spring
in those moments and I thinkthat's part of the work we're in
right now is, like you know,fall heading into winter.
You're throwing down seeds,you're putting bulbs into the
(20:55):
dirt and you are kind of prayingthat, like on the other side of
winter, after everything,everything is doing its work
underground, that the springwill come and things that you
seeded, things that youcomposted, things you released,
things that you prayed over,will come into bloom in the
spring.
And in some ways, the wholecycle is orienting around like
(21:17):
okay, like if we let go, we getspring, if we don't let go.
you know we might not getseasons anymore.
You know, the climatecatastrophes that are coming our
way right now indicate thatwe're not going to have seasons
we can count on.
In the same way, and because wehave created such chaos in the
climate and I feel myself bothgrieving that and also really
(21:41):
curious about how I, how I willadapt right, what will be the
new seasons?
How will I be a part of shapingthat?
How will the poets make newsense of the seasons?
And yeah, it's a lot for me.
And you know, then, I have thisbook coming in August, loving
Corrections.
It's coming out and I keepthinking about that.
(22:03):
There's also a seasonal aspectto that text and there's a set
of poems or spells that arearound the equinox and the
solstices that I included inthat text because it feels like
one of the grandest lovingcorrections of the structure of
humanity on earth is that welive inside of a seasonal world
(22:25):
and so, even when things seemthe most bleak and the most
hopeless, even when we can't seeour way out, even when it seems
like the ice is never going tothaw, spring is coming.
Spring is still on its way andit's, it's what we're planting
now, um, and that always helpsme.
It really helps me when we'rein moments where I'm like, oh,
(22:48):
sometimes it's generational.
You know, I come from a peoplethat were enslaved.
Our winter lasted a long time.
Our spring has been fiery, youknow, um it explosive, um, and
it's still unfolding, but right,so you can start to see.
So, for me, I see time that way.
(23:08):
But I'm like if there wasn't acycle, I don't know how I would
maintain my forward motion, butthe fact that I know that
there's a cycle keeps me movingforward keeps me moving forward.
adrienne maree brown (23:26):
How did you unfurl in this collection of
this work, like in this currentiteration, like what was that
process?
Like?
I feel like sometimes we onlysee the beauty of the finished
product and I just want to hearabout the journey of that
unfolding, because I thinkthat's so inspiring in the way
of like how you lived themedicine of that book.
Belinda Liu (23:44):
It's so interesting .
For years I was a facilitator.
My work was facilitatingmovement spaces and that's I was
traveling around the country.
I worked with black organizing,I worked with climate justice
organizers, I worked withreproductive justice organizers,
indigenous organizers, directaction folks you know all these
different communities and Ithink a lot of the essays are
(24:07):
rooted in moments inside of thatfacilitation when, as a
facilitator, I'm holding thespace and seeing the patterns
and trying to help thiscommunity move through the eye
of a needle over and over again,it's like there's only there's
something that you know that'sone of the big quotes from Taj
James in the book is there's aconversation that only these
(24:29):
people in this moment could havefind it.
And that's so much of how Iworked as a facilitator.
But there's also part of mymind that was like what would I
call this pattern?
And if I was trying to correctit on a larger level, what would
I call this pattern?
How would I speak about it?
So a lot of the essays come fromthat place of being like I
really see this pattern amongstwhite people.
(24:50):
I'm going to write a word forwhite people.
I really see this patternamongst men, both in the
organizing world and the menthat so many of the women I love
are partnered with, and I wantto talk about relinquishing the
patriarchy.
They come from very personallived experiences.
I can trace back to thememories.
I can trace back to placeswhere I felt a lot of anger or
(25:11):
discontent or frustration.
So the first part of our book Icall ruminations, because it's
really like digging into theseplaces that can be felt as
negative and discomfort andfinding the wisdom in them,
finding the thing we alreadyknow about them and trying to
find the most loving way tocommunicate that.
Because I also think that theearth is an abundant place that
(25:33):
is trying to love us in amillion ways every day and I
think that the way we changetogether is with love.
I don't think that peoplechange that much through shame
and through bullying or throughbeing torn apart publicly.
If any of those things workedto yield justice, I might have a
different perspective, butthat's not what I see emerge
(25:54):
from those behaviors.
What I do see happen is thatwhen people are in a community
and when there's space wherepeople will be honest with them
and where we can have honestconversations about how these
systems live inside of each ofus, then more becomes possible.
So the first section is likeruminating, trying to take these
things that seem negative andturn them into wisdom.
The second half is memorations,which is really a study, like a
(26:18):
murmuration, on accountability,Like what would it look like to
get in a formation ofaccountability?
It was a pleasure to write thesethings and to feel like there's
something that I know.
There's a lot that I don't know, but there's something that I
know and I think it's collective.
There's some things that weactually do know.
I'm really grateful for thetiming, because the political
(26:40):
landscape inside the U?
S right now is so fraught andchaotic and I didn't know that
the book was going to come inthis moment when I was writing
it.
You know, you never quite knowlike, okay, I'm going to finish
this book and we'll see whenit's going to come out.
But I'm really grateful it'scoming out now because,
regardless of what happens inthis election, there's things
that we know and we're not goingto backslide on and there's
(27:02):
things that we're going to keepmoving forward, and I'm a big
believer that the elections arenot the centerpiece of our
political organizing and theelectoral process is not a
political home.
So I'm really grateful to offerto people like here's some
things we actually know andwe're going to keep knowing them
next year and the year afterand for the duration of our
lives.
Omar Brownson (27:22):
Let's jump off from this place do you have the
book with you?
If there was a spell that youwanted to read in this moment
that is maybe taking inspirationfrom the rose or the theme of
choice, and I love that springkind of entered into this
(27:43):
conversation as well.
It just feels, and I just now Ialso have just this mental
image of you being that top budthat's just at the edges and
pushing possibility forward.
Belinda Liu (27:59):
I got a spell for the spring equinox which might
be the right one for this moment.
adrienne maree brown (28:05):
So why?
Belinda Liu (28:05):
don't.
We try it and we'll see whatcomes.
Let us remind the world howmany shades of green there are,
how together we look like lifeitself.
How tender the dirt gets in thespring.
How tender the dirt gets in thespring.
(28:28):
Let us burst open onemultitudinous bud unfurled by
that internal pressure of petal,right, yes, and soft, you will
learn to inhale us.
Let us punch out from the eartha lava bright and abundant
dreams of tomorrow flowing,molten and free, turning
ignorance to ash.
Let us act like we've got someroots, know that we are held
(28:50):
deeply Even as we dance towardthe golden breast of the sun.
Life delectable again.
Let us remind ourselves thatlife moves ever towards life.
This is the season of ournectar Beloveds.
This is the season worth thesting.
Omar Brownson (29:17):
Thank you, I love the.
You talked about the green inthe beginning and I think the
human eye can distinguish morecolors of green than any other
color.
And then how that life sort ofseeks life.
I just feel like that'slife-seeking life when we can
(29:37):
look at what is green in all ofits sort of gradient.
That was beautiful.
Belinda Liu (29:41):
Thank you, and apparently like we have nothing
on turtles.
Turtles can see like so manymore distinct variations of
green, which I also love, like.
I love the idea that like oh,we, we see the world this way.
I just saw something the otherday that was like here's how a
sparrow looks to us and here'show a sparrow looks to a sparrow
(30:02):
and to a sparrow they all looklike those rainbow eucalyptus.
They're just a wide array ofmagic but we don't know how to
see their magic.
But hopefully we can hone ourability to see our own.
adrienne maree brown (30:17):
Well, I have one inquiry for you.
Around, as people listen tothis conversation and they feel
you and your journey and whatyou're sharing from this place
of like wisdom and deepexperience like what's, what do
you feel like is one thing thathas really helped you stay
(30:39):
grounded in the chaos.
I feel like you've kind ofgiven a few like breadcrumbs for
us, and I'd just love to hearif there's anything else,
because I feel like that'sreally what people need right
now is that reminder of notgoing into despair, that there
is still agency, there's freedom, there's love, there's beauty,
(31:01):
there's all the things.
And so what's your personalpractice that has really helped
you be with the chaos and stillbe centered?
Belinda Liu (31:13):
I really love this question.
Lately I've been singing a lotand writing a lot of poems and I
find the creative process forme is how I compost the
overwhelm and the grief and thedespair and the fight, like all
those intense emotions, thedesire to have everyone be
(31:35):
different.
Already I can process thatthrough myself as a song.
It's like I take in all of itand it's moving through me and
if I give myself the time andspace to feel it, what comes
forth is a song, or what comesforward as a poem or what comes
forward as a spell, and it'slike, in that way I know I have
fully felt this thing, I fullylet myself be with, um,
(31:59):
something that's true, somethingthat's actually true.
I'm always trying to figure outhow to let my art bring me as
close to the truth as possible.
Like I feel like, if I'm avisionary, I want to be a
visionary of like what is, youknow, like I feel like what will
be emerges from what is andwhat.
I'm willing to practice, and soI'm always practicing like I'm,
(32:19):
like I can feel this because itis real, it is true, so I can
handle it.
And and then, once I feel it,what?
What can I make from this?
What can I?
What changes in me, um, andbecause I'm an artist, what
changes in me is usuallysomething gets created, um, but
I highly recommend it to peopleto have some way that you're
(32:39):
think of yourself as a compostbin.
It's like my job is to take allof this and make something of
it, and then what I make mightbe a poem, it might be a direct
action, it might be a sign, itmight be a book, it might be a
child.
A lot of things get compostedinto this world and become life
(33:00):
again.
So, yeah, I think that's thepractice I want to offer today.
Omar Brownson (33:05):
Yeah, I love the idea that it's creativity, it's
the choice, right, going back tothe card to create in the face
of complexity, in the face ofpain, in the face of what might
feel easier right, the path thatdoesn't have any thorns might
(33:26):
feel easier.
Right, the the path thatdoesn't have any thorns.
But like, recognizing that like, and that not making a choice
is a choice, right, like I thinkalways people remind, like, oh,
I don't have a choice.
Like, no, no, that is a choice.
Um, and and and you know, andwith the practice of gratitude,
we always say that it reallybegins by giving, not by
receiving, and so choice is thatthing that we give ourselves to
(33:49):
sort of say, like, how do wewant to wake up today?
Well, if there's anything elseyou would love to share about
your new book, congratulations.
Belinda Liu (33:57):
We can't wait to read it, digest it it comes out
August 20th, I will be doing aSouthern driving tour and I'll
be doing a few virtual eventsfor it as well, so people can
dive into it with me.
I'm really looking forward tothat.
And you know, the biggest,biggest gratitude I think of my
(34:18):
life is that I get to be awriter in this life, so I'm
really grateful that y'all hadme on here to talk about that.
I get to be a writer in thislife, so I'm really grateful
that y'all had me on here totalk about what I get to do.
I'm grateful.
adrienne maree brown (34:30):
I'm guessing we can all find the
links to the events and the bookand on your website,
adriamariebrowncom.
Belinda Liu (34:38):
Yeah, so adriamariebrowncom, and then on
my Instagram.
Those are the best places tokind of figure out what's
happening with me.
Omar Brownson (34:46):
Your Instagram has the best meme game out there
.
Thank you I definitely repostas frequently as I can, and so
if you are into memes, if you'reinto beauty and spirit and
spells and wisdom, yes, andthere's nothing like a good meme
(35:09):
.
It's just really Well that too,is a composting act.
Belinda Liu (35:13):
Right Like I'm?
Like I'm feeling so much rightnow, what can I do with it?
And then I make these littlecarousels that feel kind of like
meme poems or something, andthen I feel better afterwards, I
feel more connected and I love.
I love as people react to themand are just like oh my God, you
know they get it.
It makes you feel less alone,you know.
So I'm trying to figure outways to use the internet that
(35:34):
don't detract or suck away lifefrom me, and I find that having
really good filters you know,training my algorithm to show me
magic, wonder, beauty and loveand justice and solution, and
then putting these memes out hasme I feel like I've gained the
system a little bit.
Omar Brownson (35:54):
I love the idea of training the algorithms you
know oh yeah, I'm like, this ismy world.
adrienne maree brown (35:59):
Exactly, and I do have to say the way
that you bring joy andauthenticity has affected a lot
of people in my world Exactly,and I do have to say the way
that you bring joy andauthenticity has affected a lot
of people in my life, like Iremember at our retreat center
in Mount Shasta, california, acouple community members like
bringing the book and reading iton our land pleasure activism
(36:19):
and they were like, oh my God,this is such a reframe from like
how hard it feels and how tiredI am, and so it's just amazing
that, um, yeah, how manypeople's lives you've changed
with that reframe you know likewe can look at this differently.
Belinda Liu (36:39):
You know, we can approach it feels like that was
what was in the car too, likecan you be grateful for the
choice.
You know, even sometimes I'llfeel that in my heartbreak I'm
like, oh, I have a heart, howwonderful you know I have.
I'm still, I'm not numb to this, I'm still alive, feeling it,
and oh, how good that is.
What a what a joy it is toactually get to be alive, to
(37:00):
feel grief, right.
Omar Brownson (37:02):
Super honored to have you join us.
Wish you blessings and freedomand security and joy and all the
abundance as you continue toshare your spirit to the world.
So thank you.
Belinda Liu (37:19):
Thank you both so much.
I look forward to more and more.
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