December 18, 2023 • 33 mins
As we journey through life, we often find ourselves confronting the paradox of ambition and rest. Come with us, be part of our personal reflections on recent travels, and you might just hear the whisper of your own inner compass urging you to make necessary changes. Let's walk together as we share our tales of self-discovery, pondering the effects of modernity, particularly within the fast-paced tech and startup culture.
Have you ever considered the effects of ancestral trauma on your wellbeing? Join as we traverse this path, considering how we can find healing and transformation, even amidst the pressures of the modern world. We'll share our stories of confronting core wounds and navigating the cultural intersections of our lives, inviting you to embark on your own journey of self-discovery.
But, it's not all serious introspection. We'll also be shedding light on the joy of cross-cultural dancing, the power of presence and the beauty of transcending metaphors that no longer serve us. Join us as we celebrate our collective role in co-creating the world we want to live in, embracing the joy and inspiration that comes from meaningful connections and shared stories.
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Create an intentional practice with your own Gratitude Blooming card deck, notecards, candle and much much more at our shop at www.gratitudeblooming.com.
Learn more about our co-hosts and special guest for Season 4:
Co-host Belinda Liu | Hestia Retreat Centers
Co-host Omar Brownson | Trickster's Guide to Immortality on Substack
Special Guest Dr. Paul Wang | The Dao Center
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave us a 5-star rating and review. Your feedback is valuable to us and helps us grow.
Share your thoughts and comments by emailing us at hello@gratitudeblooming.com. We love hearing from our listeners!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Omar Brownson (00:11):
Hello Belinda.
Belinda Liu (00:13):
Hey, elmar.
Omar Brownson (00:15):
Can't believe.
The year is wrapping up andjust so much has unfolded in
2023.
Belinda Liu (00:24):
Where did the year go?
I feel like this year movedfaster than previous years and
definitely it's getting me intoa cozy up, bundle up and reflect
kind of mode.
Omar Brownson (00:38):
Do you have snow yet in Chasta?
Belinda Liu (00:40):
We just got our first snow, december 1st, and it
was this beautiful light dustof one inch, which was perfect.
The trees looked amazing, wegot that winter vibe and then it
melted.
Omar Brownson (00:54):
I'm sure you're happy for that.
You've been traveling a lot.
Where have you been?
Belinda Liu (01:01):
Yeah well, it's been an interesting time this
fall of journeying and learningfrom different community
projects.
I've been feeling this urge todo some visioning of the land
and the community that we'rebuilding through the lens of
communities that have been builtover 40 to 50 years.
(01:24):
So I got to visit a communityin Northern Italy and another
one in Finhorn, scotland, and itwas really cool to ask
questions of the people thathave been part of these two
projects for years and imaginemyself what do I want to see 40
to 50 years from now?
And it's interesting.
(01:46):
It feels like we've been takinga longer pause to really
reflect on these questions, andyou too have been traveling, so
it's interesting that we're kindof in the same flow of kind of
adding new elements to look atand reflect on in our lives.
Omar Brownson (02:04):
It's a lot to travel Just came back from Peru
and participating in sort of anindigenous ceremony, heading off
to Mexico.
Those are my and Ria Vieira.
I'm actually going to beofficiating a friend's wedding,
which I'm very excited about.
He's Sri Lankan, and so one dayis sort of more of a Sri Lankan
(02:27):
based ceremony and the next oneis more of a traditional one.
So, yeah, I feel like there'sreally reimagining ritual and
community and what are theselike practices that we hold in
our lives, and I think our themefor today is really around
walking down mountains, and Ithink so much of our culture,
(02:51):
modern life, technology, sort ofachievement orientation, is
like climbing mountains.
And I feel like you and I haveboth really intentionally
explored valleys.
Like what does it look like tonot reach peaks but really find
the fertile land right?
Like farmland is found invalleys, that's where the rich
(03:15):
soil is, and so, yeah, I'mexcited to sort of explore what
that looks like today.
Belinda Liu (03:23):
Yeah, and it's interesting how hard it is
sometimes to give ourselvespermission to stop and then walk
down because there's so much ofthe world I mean, I feel this
tension really present right nowso much of the land in nature,
and this hemisphere is gettingquiet, is getting ready for rest
(03:47):
, is shedding, and then there'sthis internal pressure that I
feel to finish all of theseto-do lists and look back on
goals that were not achieved,and it feels like such an
extreme paradox and that's a bitalso, I think, of this metaphor
of in your life, like, when doyou know that it's time to stop
(04:09):
and pause and you're not on theright mountain?
And I feel, like Omar, you'vetalked about this a lot in your
life of intentionally having todo that and because of your
values.
Some people do it becausethey've had a major health
crisis, but in your case, youwere very aware of, okay, this
is not aligned anymore, and soI'd love for you to share with
(04:31):
our listeners, who are kind ofgoing through that in big and
small ways, of how did you evenknow, like, hey, this is a
moment now to stop and go down.
Omar Brownson (04:43):
I spent 20 years in finance and real estate and
it was really driven by thismantra of building the world I
want to live in.
And that was born out of, insome ways, the ashes of the 1992
civil unrest here in LosAngeles, where my political
awareness was awakened and justrealizing that democracy and
(05:04):
cities are a lot more fragilethan we realize.
And so building the world I wantto live in was sort of this
idea of like I've seen thingsfall apart and one thing led to
another but ended up buildingboth real estate like affordable
housing, mixed use development,then on the finance side and
investing in projects to thenreally culminating and bridging
(05:27):
sort of my passion around natureand culture and people in place
and the LA River was thismanifestation of that at 51
miles and then build a companyor an organization, a nonprofit,
to really lead that sort ofeffort to then getting to
collaborate with Frank Gehry,one of the most famous
architects in the world, andgetting to really reimagine the
(05:52):
future of Los Angeles for thenext 20 to 30 years.
But in the course of that sortof realizing like, oh, but I'm
not the human being I want to be, like I'm very impatient, like
everything is like now andurgent, and I had no sort of
energy left for my family and mykids, my wife, and so I was
(06:13):
like, well, this is the top ofthe mountain, not sure, this is
where I want to be and that'sreally where.
Then I don't know if I foundgratitude or gratitude found me.
Belinda Liu (06:24):
I would love to just emphasize what you said,
which is it was a feeling thatit wasn't right, quite right,
and I can really resonate withthat too.
There have been moments in mylife where, externally, things
looked great, but then I didn'tfeel good or I wasn't my best
self, and I feel like that wasyour compass, was OK.
If this is just going to be mylife, that's not going to be OK,
(06:46):
and how you showed up foryourself and the people in your
life.
Omar Brownson (06:52):
And it was really then, after COVID and really
seeing things fall apart evenfurther was like I don't
actually want to go chaseventure capital and like that
energy of achievement.
And this is where the new and Istarted really sort of
collaborating and holding spacesin ways that were meeting
(07:14):
people where they were sufferingright.
Where there?
Was difficulty, like I rememberpeople calling in from like
hospice and like calling becausethere was nowhere else to go in
some ways, and so holding spacefor that energy.
Belinda Liu (07:29):
While I was traveling, I was around in a
circle with a hundred otherpeople and we were all kind of
introducing ourselves.
And I remember this one woman,who probably was in her 60s,
said you know, my mission inlife right now is to die well.
And I remember that we alwayshear about how we wanna live
(07:49):
well.
We don't ever talk about how wewanna die well.
And in many ways, this metaphorof the mountain navigating
these cycles of life, it's likeit is ultimately about that at
the end, like all this practicethat we're getting.
And I remember, omar, when wewere talking about this episode
(08:10):
and this theme, you had saidthat you came across another
metaphor of four mountains andfor me that really stuck in my
mind, because how do we thinkabout these stages of our lives
and what we're actuallypreparing ourselves for,
especially at the very end,right?
Omar Brownson (08:28):
Yeah, so I'm reading right now hospicing
modernity, which I highly,highly recommend, and it's
really about reimagining modernlife and maybe the end of modern
life If some people have talkedabout late stage capitalism and
the author, she really invitesus to not just sort of jump to
(08:49):
like what's the next thing, likeI did, like I jumped from one,
I was trying to jump from onepeak to the next, I was trying
to skip the valley, and so shereally invites and she shares a
story from the Cree tribe andthey teach and the elders gave
permission to share this story,which is there's four mountains.
(09:11):
The first mountain is like thebaby mountain.
You're just sort of likelearning to walk, right, it's
that crawling to walking stageof life.
And then the next mountain isthe warrior mountain, right, and
that's when we're filled withlike fire and brimstone and we
just passion and you just likeseize the mountain, right, like
it's got that sort of almostmarine kind of mindset of like
(09:32):
let's take the mountain.
But then she invites two othermountains.
The next is really the hunterprovider, right, like how do we
actually get to a space of?
It's not just about us and ourown personal sort of ego or
energy or of idea of things.
And then the final is the eldermountain, which in some ways
(09:56):
brings us full circle back tothe baby mountain and like how
are we really holding space ofthat sort of birth and death and
the renewal?
And the author really talksabout how, in some ways, modern
life is really just focused onthe warrior mountain.
We're stuck in the warriormountain.
We just constantly want to keeptaking mountains and that energy
(10:21):
of just like move fast, breakthings right, like that mindset
technology, I think inparticular sort of shows that
like performance metrics, we canjust optimize everything right
and maybe and this is the ironyof sometimes, like when
(10:41):
technology is not working,what's the best thing to do is
to unplug it and plug it back inand like reboot.
But in our sort of optimizingeverything mindset right, like I
even remember talking to afriend recently who's like deep
into spiritual practices incorporate environments but she
(11:01):
was concerned because like lastthing she wants to do is like
optimize spirituality right.
And that's, I think, the othersort of element is the
transition that we're making isfrom mastery to depth.
Mastery is achievement, it'saccomplishing that, that goal,
but depth is then found in thevalleys.
Right.
(11:21):
Like, where do we find andwe've had guests on our show,
I'm thinking of thepsychologists who talked about
the shadow work and and andwhere do we really sort of make
room for all of these mountainsin our lives and to recognize,
like, when do you need to walkdown a mountain to really then
climb the next?
Belinda Liu (11:40):
Mm, hmm.
I think culturally we'relooking for a new paradigm that
is moving into wisdom andelderships.
So many people I know in ourcommunity who are in their
sixties are like how do Iprepare to be an elder, to then
eventually be an ancestor?
It's not a given just becauseyou lived a long life that you
get that, that wisdom title andand so much of it is this
(12:04):
practice, and I feel like that'swhat we also are holding space
for with gratitude blooming ishow do we create a different
kind of culture around even howdo we hold space?
Omar Brownson (12:15):
Well, how about you, belinda?
I feel like part of hospicingmodernity, and a lot of the
practices that I've beenexploring have been grounded in
nature, and nature not just issomething that we observe as out
there, but something within us,and in some ways, there's no
separation.
What have you learned aboutliving at the foothills of a
(12:39):
large mountain, being nestledinto a canyon?
How have these practices helpedyou walk down mountains, and
what mountains have you walkeddown?
Wow?
Belinda Liu (12:51):
Well, I think, to decide to be self employed since
2009,.
It's, I think I.
One thing I realized was thecurrent modern, the structure of
modernity around how I want tolive and make a living, which
just wasn't working.
And, and since then I've kindof been looking for ways, models
(13:15):
to have that way of life thatreally matches what I want to
create in the world and also how, how I want to do it.
And I dabbled with startupcultures, creating one, looking
at Silicon Valley as a model,and it really was exhausting to
constantly be trying to proveyourself and for me.
(13:36):
I remember going to these techconferences and I'd be like one
of the few women and, beingAsian too, I just constantly
felt out of place, like itwasn't really for me.
The coming down of the mountainwas acknowledging like it's
okay to say that it's not foryou and to and to walk away from
(13:57):
that because you like it wasn'tever.
It never felt right.
But there was a I think therewas an ego part of me that
wanted to be a part of that club, because I felt excluded and I
wanted to say, hey, look, I'mdoing this thing and everyone
can't you see how great it is,and I really had to let go of
external validation for a longperiod of time.
(14:20):
I just really had to surrenderthat, whatever I was doing, the
things that have depth, like youcan't see them right away, and
so it takes this cultivation ofgoing more inward and trusting
that and, I think, being withthe cycles of nature over years
now we're now on our ninth yearof stewarding the land in Mount
(14:43):
Shasta and I remember that beingthe medicine that every year
I'd have to learn, and fallwould always be the hardest time
, because I was holding onto somany things and wanting to see
everything that I had wanted tocreate come into reality.
And then I would see how thetrees were just letting go of
their leaves and there wasn'tthat resistance of trying to do
(15:06):
more and more and more, just tolike get the most out of the
year.
That internal recalibrationthat nature supported me with is
what gives me the anchor andthe conviction internally to
keep doing what I'm doing in theway that I feel like is the
(15:28):
most honest for me.
Omar Brownson (15:33):
So I want you to unpack medicines a little bit
more, because I feel, like inthe sort of modern life we've
conflated degrees with medicine,achievements with healing, and
we both went to Harvard.
We both played the game andthen walked away from the game.
(15:54):
But what is medicine?
What does that even really mean?
What's the difference betweencuring versus healing?
Belinda Liu (16:06):
Yeah, I think immediately, for me, medicine in
the way that I feel it and it'skind of channeling Arlene a bit
too, and how she sees her artis, is this energy of healing
and this energy oftransformation and transmutation
.
You have to be super engagedwith that internally and
(16:26):
externally, and oftentimes weare meant to receive the
medicine of our lives so that wecan then give it into the world
.
So in many ways it is thehealing journey Like what is it
that we need to deeply healwithin ourselves that then
affects how we show up in theworld.
And for me, I think my corewound if I were to be totally
(16:48):
honest, is this sense of notbeing worthy, not being enough.
Maybe there was something as animmigrant showing up immediately
in first grade, not belonging,not feeling like I knew what I
was doing because I didn't knowthe language.
Or maybe there was somethingwith my relationship with my
(17:09):
mother, the way that I saw thatshe didn't feel fully worthy and
I took that on and so then itaffected everything that I did
till I really wanted to facethat, and I think that's the
deep spiritual medicine, right.
It's like when you're willingto look at all the aspects of
(17:30):
your life where that showed upand it wasn't music, music,
music, music, music, music,serving.
I think that, for me, is whatwhat that means, and I'm curious
for you how do you reflect onthis now, in this phase of your
life?
Omar Brownson (17:47):
Just want to acknowledge a couple things you
shared.
First, which is just what I'mhearing, is the healing versus
curing is like transformationversus fixing.
Yeah, like, how do we not justlike, because you can't ever go
back to something, and so partof it is like it's a false idea,
(18:09):
right, it's a false promise.
And so how do you actuallytransform, which is evolve?
And then the evolution thatyou're talking about is like
Over generations right, likesome of these traumas or
challenges are ancestral and andthe healing is not just within
(18:30):
your own lifetime, but you know,and it and science backs us up,
like the, the epidemiological,like changes like Show up.
Right, like if your ancestors,two generations ago, did not
have enough food, that will showup in your genes.
And like how you approacheating.
And so, like the fixingmentality of dieting right, like
(18:52):
, oh, I need to lose weight,achieve some Sort of idea of
what health looks like, but ifyou don't understand that maybe
two generations ago there wasnot enough food in your family
and so your, your DNA Is wiredin a particular way, there's no
fixing that right now there's, Idon't even know.
There's like some new drugthat's supposed to help you with
(19:12):
your diet and appetite, andit's just like Modern sort of
life, once you just take a pill,right and as opposed to like
what are those systemic or Lifethings that are happening around
you and support health in avery different way, right like,
and I feel like that sort of thetransformation.
(19:34):
Yeah, the three medicines thatI've been sort of playing with
really recently is this ideathat gratitude, stories and
plans Are my three medicines.
And, and really this most recenttrip to Peru where I did a lot
of singing and dancing, Irealized I've been holding on to
(19:57):
this metaphor of a bridge for avery long time, right, growing
up with Chinese American familyon my mom's side, white family
on my dad's side, but whoconverted Islam, hence Omar, and
so I've always felt like thisbridge right, like trying to
connect across cultures.
And as I was dancing, Irealized that like a bridge is
(20:22):
too static, a bridge is toobinary, right, like it's just
connecting two sides and it selfdoesn't actually get to
transform.
It's like just getting riddenacross in some ways.
And so I was like, well, I'mactually a dancer, like I dance
across cultures and I moveacross cultures, and then I
(20:43):
think the things that I've beenmoving with, particularly the
last few years, is gratitude,stories and plans and really
like how do I listen togratitude as a place of being
able to connect deep into myemotions and feelings and these
very sometimes irrational things, right, as opposed to like, oh,
(21:06):
this is the logic, linear sortof thinking that is right.
Like no, what are these wildemotions and how do I be present
to them?
And then also realizing I don'thave to become all of them
right, like I can sort of seethe highs and the lows Without
experiencing necessarily thehighs and lows.
Just be like whoa, look, theseare the peaks and valleys.
(21:27):
And then stories, I think isreally what are the stories that
we are telling ourselves?
What is success?
How do we measure success?
What are the metaphors?
Like if I, am I a bridge or amI a dancer?
Like, how am I orienting in mylife?
I remember two years ago, asevery like, oftentimes folks are
(21:49):
like what's the, what's theintersecting circles?
And you try to find the onething that, like all things
linked to and her career, shefelt more like a braid these
threads.
It wasn't about trying to findthat, one sort of thing that
connected all the dots.
(22:10):
And so I think the stories thatwe tell, like where this, this
Cree tribe, like there's fourmountains, like and these are
not just metaphors as in stories, but this is actually life,
like we actually live our livesthrough these, not just ideas,
but just ways of moving in theworld.
Then then finally, I think,with plants it's just connecting
back to this thing.
(22:31):
That's much bigger, like thislife.
It's much bigger than we caneven imagine.
So we forget that in our quotesort of civilized lives in our
cities and all these otherthings that try to conform and
fix and structure everything.
Belinda Liu (22:47):
Well, dancing sounds a lot more fun than
trying to be a bridge.
I mean, we got a bridge on ourland, across our creek, and the
bridge when I walk it I hearsometimes the energy of it is
like, oh god, I got to be strong, I got to hold these two sides
together and make sure peoplecan walk across without hurting
(23:07):
themselves.
So I just love that you arereframing that metaphor in a way
that feels fun and dynamic and,yeah, it's bringing all the
things together.
Omar Brownson (23:17):
Even science shows that, like if you just
practice something versus playwith something, you're going to
learn way faster through play.
And so, like I feel like how webreak out of some of these
mechanistic sort of ideas intosort of more of these organic
forms like this, is thistransition that we're sort of on
(23:38):
the front ends of experiencing,and I feel like getting to be
both mirrors and windows forright, like we're getting to
sort of reflect in real time,like that's what the third
season of this podcast is allabout.
Is like this, our audiodocumentary of just like hey,
this is what we're learning,this is the edges of what we're
experiencing from literally nowaround the world, right like you
(23:59):
and I are traveling andlistening to all these different
communities and getting to sortof share, and then that way we
get to be these windows intothese other ways of living.
Belinda Liu (24:10):
Well, with that, I feel like it is now the time to
bring in the plants of gratitudeblooming, and I'm curious if
there's an inquiry we shouldhold for ourselves and our
community, omar, and now we getto add the song to it, so this
is going to be fun.
Omar Brownson (24:28):
Yeah, I'm feeling just this open inquiry is like
how do we help teach people howto walk down mountains?
A lot less fear and like how dowe dance down mountains?
Belinda Liu (24:41):
I like that.
Omar Brownson (24:43):
Since we're talking about valleys, we should
pick from the bottom.
Belinda Liu (24:45):
I'm feeling this one here.
Omar Brownson (24:47):
Number 12, the Indian paintbrush representing
joy and presence.
When you make time forstillness in the moment, what
does joy feel like?
Belinda Liu (25:02):
Nice exhale.
Omar Brownson (25:04):
Yeah, nice exhale .
It feels like a good exhale,right, like that's why the
expression is waiting to exhale.
Like how do we just we're sobusy sometimes just holding our
breath like, oh, just the nextthing and then I can relax, so
the next thing and theneverything will be all right, or
the next thing, and it's justlike no, it's actually joy and
(25:26):
presence, it's, it's right now.
Like what are we present to?
And like how do we experiencethe joy?
And like this is the only cardin the deck with a creature in
it and this beautifulhummingbird that's visited
Arlene and her family, thehummingbird's family that's
visited her.
And it's just how do weexperience in the moment that
(25:49):
infinite possibility, that joythat nature kind of brings, and
and dance with it?
like like, how do we actuallydance with the moment?
Belinda Liu (26:00):
And I love that word present, presence, present.
It feels like a gift, like howdo we give ourselves this gift
just in how we choose to takethat pause, even when it's
things feel really crazy and outof control, especially this
time of year.
And I feel like when I watchthe hummingbirds pollinate, they
do look like they're dancing inair mid-air.
(26:23):
They're just kind of likeplaying.
Omar Brownson (26:27):
I love that you brought in the word pollinate,
because you look at the bird andthe two flowers.
It's an ecosystem, right likejoy and presence is actually
acknowledging the ecosystem thatyou're part of.
Right like a flower cannotpollinate without the birds.
The birds want the nectar ofthe flowers and I feel like
(26:48):
that's also this sort of deepreminder is that we're not alone
.
Right like gratitude is aboutreminding ourselves that we're
part of something bigger and andso how do we pause?
When you make time for stillnessin the moment, what does joy
feel like?
And that just sort of likewaiting to exhale.
(27:08):
And I was actually just readingabout a I think it's a tichnot
Han meditation practice and hesays to start your breath with
an exhale, not an inhale.
And when you start your breathwith an exhale, you start by
(27:32):
giving.
Right.
So instead of beginning likesometimes breathing in and then
breathing out, we start with aninhale.
We're sort of taking.
And so what does it look liketo begin by giving a breath?
And that's really been.
I think I was recently inBolinas for the common wheel
fall gathering and justlistening to this Cambodian
(27:55):
filmmaker I think I shared thisbefore it was just like
breathing with the trees andbeing in relationship that like
I can breathe out and I'm likefeeding the trees and I can
breathe in and the trees arefeeding me and it literally is a
gift that keeps on giving,because if we each feel that joy
in that authentic way that thehummingbird does, or the, or the
(28:17):
paintbrush plant, I mean thataffects everyone else around us,
right?
Belinda Liu (28:22):
it's like just this gift that keeps on giving, and
so I love now that we have ourritual for season three of just
the songs of the gratitudeblooming plants.
So Omar is going to pull up thesong and and let's practice,
with an exhale first before welisten to the song, to to really
(28:47):
just receive, give back to itand receive it here is joy in
presence.
Omar Brownson (28:56):
Our collaboration with aerial low and window seat
.
Belinda Liu (31:09):
Wow, I feel like I was dancing on air towards the
end of that song and I honestlyI haven't noticed that shift in
that song.
When it starts getting fluttery, I'm curious what joy and
presence felt like for you, Omar.
Omar Brownson (31:25):
I was just thinking about how excited I am
for you and the community thatyou're building, that you're in
year nine, you said, but what'sgoing to unfold in the next 30
to 40 years?
And I know that you're alreadyimagining Hestia across oceans
and inviting differentmyth-makers and storytellers and
(31:51):
practitioners, and so, yeah,I'm just excited for all the
seeds that you're planting.
Belinda Liu (32:00):
So you just inspired me to dance a little
bit in my heart.
So I love that we have thisspace to inspire each other and
hopefully transmit some of thatto you all who are listening or
watching.
And yeah, please continue tolisten to the music if it's
healing, or pick your own cardsto inspire you and guide you for
(32:22):
coming down the mountain.
And we have our great holidaydeals this month 20% off
everything in our shop and,honestly, all of the purchases
that come through just help uskeep this podcast going.
So really grateful to see theorders coming through this month
(32:42):
and supporting this no ads.
Listen to our driven podcastthat we're creating together.
Omar Brownson (32:49):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for helpingus to co-create the world we
want to live in.
Cheers churches.
Hello Belinda.
Belinda Liu (00:13):
Hey, elmar.
Omar Brownson (00:15):
Can't believe.
The year is wrapping up andjust so much has unfolded in
2023.
Belinda Liu (00:24):
Where did the year go?
I feel like this year movedfaster than previous years and
definitely it's getting me intoa cozy up, bundle up and reflect
kind of mode.
Omar Brownson (00:38):
Do you have snow yet in Chasta?
Belinda Liu (00:40):
We just got our first snow, december 1st, and it
was this beautiful light dustof one inch, which was perfect.
The trees looked amazing, wegot that winter vibe and then it
melted.
Omar Brownson (00:54):
I'm sure you're happy for that.
You've been traveling a lot.
Where have you been?
Belinda Liu (01:01):
Yeah well, it's been an interesting time this
fall of journeying and learningfrom different community
projects.
I've been feeling this urge todo some visioning of the land
and the community that we'rebuilding through the lens of
communities that have been builtover 40 to 50 years.
(01:24):
So I got to visit a communityin Northern Italy and another
one in Finhorn, scotland, and itwas really cool to ask
questions of the people thathave been part of these two
projects for years and imaginemyself what do I want to see 40
to 50 years from now?
And it's interesting.
(01:46):
It feels like we've been takinga longer pause to really
reflect on these questions, andyou too have been traveling, so
it's interesting that we're kindof in the same flow of kind of
adding new elements to look atand reflect on in our lives.
Omar Brownson (02:04):
It's a lot to travel Just came back from Peru
and participating in sort of anindigenous ceremony, heading off
to Mexico.
Those are my and Ria Vieira.
I'm actually going to beofficiating a friend's wedding,
which I'm very excited about.
He's Sri Lankan, and so one dayis sort of more of a Sri Lankan
(02:27):
based ceremony and the next oneis more of a traditional one.
So, yeah, I feel like there'sreally reimagining ritual and
community and what are theselike practices that we hold in
our lives, and I think our themefor today is really around
walking down mountains, and Ithink so much of our culture,
(02:51):
modern life, technology, sort ofachievement orientation, is
like climbing mountains.
And I feel like you and I haveboth really intentionally
explored valleys.
Like what does it look like tonot reach peaks but really find
the fertile land right?
Like farmland is found invalleys, that's where the rich
(03:15):
soil is, and so, yeah, I'mexcited to sort of explore what
that looks like today.
Belinda Liu (03:23):
Yeah, and it's interesting how hard it is
sometimes to give ourselvespermission to stop and then walk
down because there's so much ofthe world I mean, I feel this
tension really present right nowso much of the land in nature,
and this hemisphere is gettingquiet, is getting ready for rest
(03:47):
, is shedding, and then there'sthis internal pressure that I
feel to finish all of theseto-do lists and look back on
goals that were not achieved,and it feels like such an
extreme paradox and that's a bitalso, I think, of this metaphor
of in your life, like, when doyou know that it's time to stop
(04:09):
and pause and you're not on theright mountain?
And I feel, like Omar, you'vetalked about this a lot in your
life of intentionally having todo that and because of your
values.
Some people do it becausethey've had a major health
crisis, but in your case, youwere very aware of, okay, this
is not aligned anymore, and soI'd love for you to share with
(04:31):
our listeners, who are kind ofgoing through that in big and
small ways, of how did you evenknow, like, hey, this is a
moment now to stop and go down.
Omar Brownson (04:43):
I spent 20 years in finance and real estate and
it was really driven by thismantra of building the world I
want to live in.
And that was born out of, insome ways, the ashes of the 1992
civil unrest here in LosAngeles, where my political
awareness was awakened and justrealizing that democracy and
(05:04):
cities are a lot more fragilethan we realize.
And so building the world I wantto live in was sort of this
idea of like I've seen thingsfall apart and one thing led to
another but ended up buildingboth real estate like affordable
housing, mixed use development,then on the finance side and
investing in projects to thenreally culminating and bridging
(05:27):
sort of my passion around natureand culture and people in place
and the LA River was thismanifestation of that at 51
miles and then build a companyor an organization, a nonprofit,
to really lead that sort ofeffort to then getting to
collaborate with Frank Gehry,one of the most famous
architects in the world, andgetting to really reimagine the
(05:52):
future of Los Angeles for thenext 20 to 30 years.
But in the course of that sortof realizing like, oh, but I'm
not the human being I want to be, like I'm very impatient, like
everything is like now andurgent, and I had no sort of
energy left for my family and mykids, my wife, and so I was
(06:13):
like, well, this is the top ofthe mountain, not sure, this is
where I want to be and that'sreally where.
Then I don't know if I foundgratitude or gratitude found me.
Belinda Liu (06:24):
I would love to just emphasize what you said,
which is it was a feeling thatit wasn't right, quite right,
and I can really resonate withthat too.
There have been moments in mylife where, externally, things
looked great, but then I didn'tfeel good or I wasn't my best
self, and I feel like that wasyour compass, was OK.
If this is just going to be mylife, that's not going to be OK,
(06:46):
and how you showed up foryourself and the people in your
life.
Omar Brownson (06:52):
And it was really then, after COVID and really
seeing things fall apart evenfurther was like I don't
actually want to go chaseventure capital and like that
energy of achievement.
And this is where the new and Istarted really sort of
collaborating and holding spacesin ways that were meeting
(07:14):
people where they were sufferingright.
Where there?
Was difficulty, like I rememberpeople calling in from like
hospice and like calling becausethere was nowhere else to go in
some ways, and so holding spacefor that energy.
Belinda Liu (07:29):
While I was traveling, I was around in a
circle with a hundred otherpeople and we were all kind of
introducing ourselves.
And I remember this one woman,who probably was in her 60s,
said you know, my mission inlife right now is to die well.
And I remember that we alwayshear about how we wanna live
(07:49):
well.
We don't ever talk about how wewanna die well.
And in many ways, this metaphorof the mountain navigating
these cycles of life, it's likeit is ultimately about that at
the end, like all this practicethat we're getting.
And I remember, omar, when wewere talking about this episode
(08:10):
and this theme, you had saidthat you came across another
metaphor of four mountains andfor me that really stuck in my
mind, because how do we thinkabout these stages of our lives
and what we're actuallypreparing ourselves for,
especially at the very end,right?
Omar Brownson (08:28):
Yeah, so I'm reading right now hospicing
modernity, which I highly,highly recommend, and it's
really about reimagining modernlife and maybe the end of modern
life If some people have talkedabout late stage capitalism and
the author, she really invitesus to not just sort of jump to
(08:49):
like what's the next thing, likeI did, like I jumped from one,
I was trying to jump from onepeak to the next, I was trying
to skip the valley, and so shereally invites and she shares a
story from the Cree tribe andthey teach and the elders gave
permission to share this story,which is there's four mountains.
(09:11):
The first mountain is like thebaby mountain.
You're just sort of likelearning to walk, right, it's
that crawling to walking stageof life.
And then the next mountain isthe warrior mountain, right, and
that's when we're filled withlike fire and brimstone and we
just passion and you just likeseize the mountain, right, like
it's got that sort of almostmarine kind of mindset of like
(09:32):
let's take the mountain.
But then she invites two othermountains.
The next is really the hunterprovider, right, like how do we
actually get to a space of?
It's not just about us and ourown personal sort of ego or
energy or of idea of things.
And then the final is the eldermountain, which in some ways
(09:56):
brings us full circle back tothe baby mountain and like how
are we really holding space ofthat sort of birth and death and
the renewal?
And the author really talksabout how, in some ways, modern
life is really just focused onthe warrior mountain.
We're stuck in the warriormountain.
We just constantly want to keeptaking mountains and that energy
(10:21):
of just like move fast, breakthings right, like that mindset
technology, I think inparticular sort of shows that
like performance metrics, we canjust optimize everything right
and maybe and this is the ironyof sometimes, like when
(10:41):
technology is not working,what's the best thing to do is
to unplug it and plug it back inand like reboot.
But in our sort of optimizingeverything mindset right, like I
even remember talking to afriend recently who's like deep
into spiritual practices incorporate environments but she
(11:01):
was concerned because like lastthing she wants to do is like
optimize spirituality right.
And that's, I think, the othersort of element is the
transition that we're making isfrom mastery to depth.
Mastery is achievement, it'saccomplishing that, that goal,
but depth is then found in thevalleys.
Right.
(11:21):
Like, where do we find andwe've had guests on our show,
I'm thinking of thepsychologists who talked about
the shadow work and and andwhere do we really sort of make
room for all of these mountainsin our lives and to recognize,
like, when do you need to walkdown a mountain to really then
climb the next?
Belinda Liu (11:40):
Mm, hmm.
I think culturally we'relooking for a new paradigm that
is moving into wisdom andelderships.
So many people I know in ourcommunity who are in their
sixties are like how do Iprepare to be an elder, to then
eventually be an ancestor?
It's not a given just becauseyou lived a long life that you
get that, that wisdom title andand so much of it is this
(12:04):
practice, and I feel like that'swhat we also are holding space
for with gratitude blooming ishow do we create a different
kind of culture around even howdo we hold space?
Omar Brownson (12:15):
Well, how about you, belinda?
I feel like part of hospicingmodernity, and a lot of the
practices that I've beenexploring have been grounded in
nature, and nature not just issomething that we observe as out
there, but something within us,and in some ways, there's no
separation.
What have you learned aboutliving at the foothills of a
(12:39):
large mountain, being nestledinto a canyon?
How have these practices helpedyou walk down mountains, and
what mountains have you walkeddown?
Wow?
Belinda Liu (12:51):
Well, I think, to decide to be self employed since
2009,.
It's, I think I.
One thing I realized was thecurrent modern, the structure of
modernity around how I want tolive and make a living, which
just wasn't working.
And, and since then I've kindof been looking for ways, models
(13:15):
to have that way of life thatreally matches what I want to
create in the world and also how, how I want to do it.
And I dabbled with startupcultures, creating one, looking
at Silicon Valley as a model,and it really was exhausting to
constantly be trying to proveyourself and for me.
(13:36):
I remember going to these techconferences and I'd be like one
of the few women and, beingAsian too, I just constantly
felt out of place, like itwasn't really for me.
The coming down of the mountainwas acknowledging like it's
okay to say that it's not foryou and to and to walk away from
(13:57):
that because you like it wasn'tever.
It never felt right.
But there was a I think therewas an ego part of me that
wanted to be a part of that club, because I felt excluded and I
wanted to say, hey, look, I'mdoing this thing and everyone
can't you see how great it is,and I really had to let go of
external validation for a longperiod of time.
(14:20):
I just really had to surrenderthat, whatever I was doing, the
things that have depth, like youcan't see them right away, and
so it takes this cultivation ofgoing more inward and trusting
that and, I think, being withthe cycles of nature over years
now we're now on our ninth yearof stewarding the land in Mount
(14:43):
Shasta and I remember that beingthe medicine that every year
I'd have to learn, and fallwould always be the hardest time
, because I was holding onto somany things and wanting to see
everything that I had wanted tocreate come into reality.
And then I would see how thetrees were just letting go of
their leaves and there wasn'tthat resistance of trying to do
(15:06):
more and more and more, just tolike get the most out of the
year.
That internal recalibrationthat nature supported me with is
what gives me the anchor andthe conviction internally to
keep doing what I'm doing in theway that I feel like is the
(15:28):
most honest for me.
Omar Brownson (15:33):
So I want you to unpack medicines a little bit
more, because I feel, like inthe sort of modern life we've
conflated degrees with medicine,achievements with healing, and
we both went to Harvard.
We both played the game andthen walked away from the game.
(15:54):
But what is medicine?
What does that even really mean?
What's the difference betweencuring versus healing?
Belinda Liu (16:06):
Yeah, I think immediately, for me, medicine in
the way that I feel it and it'skind of channeling Arlene a bit
too, and how she sees her artis, is this energy of healing
and this energy oftransformation and transmutation
.
You have to be super engagedwith that internally and
(16:26):
externally, and oftentimes weare meant to receive the
medicine of our lives so that wecan then give it into the world
.
So in many ways it is thehealing journey Like what is it
that we need to deeply healwithin ourselves that then
affects how we show up in theworld.
And for me, I think my corewound if I were to be totally
(16:48):
honest, is this sense of notbeing worthy, not being enough.
Maybe there was something as animmigrant showing up immediately
in first grade, not belonging,not feeling like I knew what I
was doing because I didn't knowthe language.
Or maybe there was somethingwith my relationship with my
(17:09):
mother, the way that I saw thatshe didn't feel fully worthy and
I took that on and so then itaffected everything that I did
till I really wanted to facethat, and I think that's the
deep spiritual medicine, right.
It's like when you're willingto look at all the aspects of
(17:30):
your life where that showed upand it wasn't music, music,
music, music, music, music,serving.
I think that, for me, is whatwhat that means, and I'm curious
for you how do you reflect onthis now, in this phase of your
life?
Omar Brownson (17:47):
Just want to acknowledge a couple things you
shared.
First, which is just what I'mhearing, is the healing versus
curing is like transformationversus fixing.
Yeah, like, how do we not justlike, because you can't ever go
back to something, and so partof it is like it's a false idea,
(18:09):
right, it's a false promise.
And so how do you actuallytransform, which is evolve?
And then the evolution thatyou're talking about is like
Over generations right, likesome of these traumas or
challenges are ancestral and andthe healing is not just within
(18:30):
your own lifetime, but you know,and it and science backs us up,
like the, the epidemiological,like changes like Show up.
Right, like if your ancestors,two generations ago, did not
have enough food, that will showup in your genes.
And like how you approacheating.
And so, like the fixingmentality of dieting right, like
(18:52):
, oh, I need to lose weight,achieve some Sort of idea of
what health looks like, but ifyou don't understand that maybe
two generations ago there wasnot enough food in your family
and so your, your DNA Is wiredin a particular way, there's no
fixing that right now there's, Idon't even know.
There's like some new drugthat's supposed to help you with
(19:12):
your diet and appetite, andit's just like Modern sort of
life, once you just take a pill,right and as opposed to like
what are those systemic or Lifethings that are happening around
you and support health in avery different way, right like,
and I feel like that sort of thetransformation.
(19:34):
Yeah, the three medicines thatI've been sort of playing with
really recently is this ideathat gratitude, stories and
plans Are my three medicines.
And, and really this most recenttrip to Peru where I did a lot
of singing and dancing, Irealized I've been holding on to
(19:57):
this metaphor of a bridge for avery long time, right, growing
up with Chinese American familyon my mom's side, white family
on my dad's side, but whoconverted Islam, hence Omar, and
so I've always felt like thisbridge right, like trying to
connect across cultures.
And as I was dancing, Irealized that like a bridge is
(20:22):
too static, a bridge is toobinary, right, like it's just
connecting two sides and it selfdoesn't actually get to
transform.
It's like just getting riddenacross in some ways.
And so I was like, well, I'mactually a dancer, like I dance
across cultures and I moveacross cultures, and then I
(20:43):
think the things that I've beenmoving with, particularly the
last few years, is gratitude,stories and plans and really
like how do I listen togratitude as a place of being
able to connect deep into myemotions and feelings and these
very sometimes irrational things, right, as opposed to like, oh,
(21:06):
this is the logic, linear sortof thinking that is right.
Like no, what are these wildemotions and how do I be present
to them?
And then also realizing I don'thave to become all of them
right, like I can sort of seethe highs and the lows Without
experiencing necessarily thehighs and lows.
Just be like whoa, look, theseare the peaks and valleys.
(21:27):
And then stories, I think isreally what are the stories that
we are telling ourselves?
What is success?
How do we measure success?
What are the metaphors?
Like if I, am I a bridge or amI a dancer?
Like, how am I orienting in mylife?
I remember two years ago, asevery like, oftentimes folks are
(21:49):
like what's the, what's theintersecting circles?
And you try to find the onething that, like all things
linked to and her career, shefelt more like a braid these
threads.
It wasn't about trying to findthat, one sort of thing that
connected all the dots.
(22:10):
And so I think the stories thatwe tell, like where this, this
Cree tribe, like there's fourmountains, like and these are
not just metaphors as in stories, but this is actually life,
like we actually live our livesthrough these, not just ideas,
but just ways of moving in theworld.
Then then finally, I think,with plants it's just connecting
back to this thing.
(22:31):
That's much bigger, like thislife.
It's much bigger than we caneven imagine.
So we forget that in our quotesort of civilized lives in our
cities and all these otherthings that try to conform and
fix and structure everything.
Belinda Liu (22:47):
Well, dancing sounds a lot more fun than
trying to be a bridge.
I mean, we got a bridge on ourland, across our creek, and the
bridge when I walk it I hearsometimes the energy of it is
like, oh god, I got to be strong, I got to hold these two sides
together and make sure peoplecan walk across without hurting
(23:07):
themselves.
So I just love that you arereframing that metaphor in a way
that feels fun and dynamic and,yeah, it's bringing all the
things together.
Omar Brownson (23:17):
Even science shows that, like if you just
practice something versus playwith something, you're going to
learn way faster through play.
And so, like I feel like how webreak out of some of these
mechanistic sort of ideas intosort of more of these organic
forms like this, is thistransition that we're sort of on
(23:38):
the front ends of experiencing,and I feel like getting to be
both mirrors and windows forright, like we're getting to
sort of reflect in real time,like that's what the third
season of this podcast is allabout.
Is like this, our audiodocumentary of just like hey,
this is what we're learning,this is the edges of what we're
experiencing from literally nowaround the world, right like you
(23:59):
and I are traveling andlistening to all these different
communities and getting to sortof share, and then that way we
get to be these windows intothese other ways of living.
Belinda Liu (24:10):
Well, with that, I feel like it is now the time to
bring in the plants of gratitudeblooming, and I'm curious if
there's an inquiry we shouldhold for ourselves and our
community, omar, and now we getto add the song to it, so this
is going to be fun.
Omar Brownson (24:28):
Yeah, I'm feeling just this open inquiry is like
how do we help teach people howto walk down mountains?
A lot less fear and like how dowe dance down mountains?
Belinda Liu (24:41):
I like that.
Omar Brownson (24:43):
Since we're talking about valleys, we should
pick from the bottom.
Belinda Liu (24:45):
I'm feeling this one here.
Omar Brownson (24:47):
Number 12, the Indian paintbrush representing
joy and presence.
When you make time forstillness in the moment, what
does joy feel like?
Belinda Liu (25:02):
Nice exhale.
Omar Brownson (25:04):
Yeah, nice exhale .
It feels like a good exhale,right, like that's why the
expression is waiting to exhale.
Like how do we just we're sobusy sometimes just holding our
breath like, oh, just the nextthing and then I can relax, so
the next thing and theneverything will be all right, or
the next thing, and it's justlike no, it's actually joy and
(25:26):
presence, it's, it's right now.
Like what are we present to?
And like how do we experiencethe joy?
And like this is the only cardin the deck with a creature in
it and this beautifulhummingbird that's visited
Arlene and her family, thehummingbird's family that's
visited her.
And it's just how do weexperience in the moment that
(25:49):
infinite possibility, that joythat nature kind of brings, and
and dance with it?
like like, how do we actuallydance with the moment?
Belinda Liu (26:00):
And I love that word present, presence, present.
It feels like a gift, like howdo we give ourselves this gift
just in how we choose to takethat pause, even when it's
things feel really crazy and outof control, especially this
time of year.
And I feel like when I watchthe hummingbirds pollinate, they
do look like they're dancing inair mid-air.
(26:23):
They're just kind of likeplaying.
Omar Brownson (26:27):
I love that you brought in the word pollinate,
because you look at the bird andthe two flowers.
It's an ecosystem, right likejoy and presence is actually
acknowledging the ecosystem thatyou're part of.
Right like a flower cannotpollinate without the birds.
The birds want the nectar ofthe flowers and I feel like
(26:48):
that's also this sort of deepreminder is that we're not alone
.
Right like gratitude is aboutreminding ourselves that we're
part of something bigger and andso how do we pause?
When you make time for stillnessin the moment, what does joy
feel like?
And that just sort of likewaiting to exhale.
(27:08):
And I was actually just readingabout a I think it's a tichnot
Han meditation practice and hesays to start your breath with
an exhale, not an inhale.
And when you start your breathwith an exhale, you start by
(27:32):
giving.
Right.
So instead of beginning likesometimes breathing in and then
breathing out, we start with aninhale.
We're sort of taking.
And so what does it look liketo begin by giving a breath?
And that's really been.
I think I was recently inBolinas for the common wheel
fall gathering and justlistening to this Cambodian
(27:55):
filmmaker I think I shared thisbefore it was just like
breathing with the trees andbeing in relationship that like
I can breathe out and I'm likefeeding the trees and I can
breathe in and the trees arefeeding me and it literally is a
gift that keeps on giving,because if we each feel that joy
in that authentic way that thehummingbird does, or the, or the
(28:17):
paintbrush plant, I mean thataffects everyone else around us,
right?
Belinda Liu (28:22):
it's like just this gift that keeps on giving, and
so I love now that we have ourritual for season three of just
the songs of the gratitudeblooming plants.
So Omar is going to pull up thesong and and let's practice,
with an exhale first before welisten to the song, to to really
(28:47):
just receive, give back to itand receive it here is joy in
presence.
Omar Brownson (28:56):
Our collaboration with aerial low and window seat
.
Belinda Liu (31:09):
Wow, I feel like I was dancing on air towards the
end of that song and I honestlyI haven't noticed that shift in
that song.
When it starts getting fluttery, I'm curious what joy and
presence felt like for you, Omar.
Omar Brownson (31:25):
I was just thinking about how excited I am
for you and the community thatyou're building, that you're in
year nine, you said, but what'sgoing to unfold in the next 30
to 40 years?
And I know that you're alreadyimagining Hestia across oceans
and inviting differentmyth-makers and storytellers and
(31:51):
practitioners, and so, yeah,I'm just excited for all the
seeds that you're planting.
Belinda Liu (32:00):
So you just inspired me to dance a little
bit in my heart.
So I love that we have thisspace to inspire each other and
hopefully transmit some of thatto you all who are listening or
watching.
And yeah, please continue tolisten to the music if it's
healing, or pick your own cardsto inspire you and guide you for
(32:22):
coming down the mountain.
And we have our great holidaydeals this month 20% off
everything in our shop and,honestly, all of the purchases
that come through just help uskeep this podcast going.
So really grateful to see theorders coming through this month
(32:42):
and supporting this no ads.
Listen to our driven podcastthat we're creating together.
Omar Brownson (32:49):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for helpingus to co-create the world we
want to live in.
Cheers churches.
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