November 7, 2024 • 42 mins
Zen Master and movement leader Norma Wong returns to share her profound insights on tenacity and transformation, illuminating the intricate dance between persistence and stubbornness. And, she shares insights from her new book, When No Thing Works.
We pull the dandelion card, representing tenacity, and explore the art of nurturing curiosity and playfulness amidst adversity, much like how dandelions spread their seeds across vast distances. Norma's reflections on her extensive travels (including more than 3 million airline miles) offer a rich tapestry of lessons that parallel the resilience and adaptability of these unassuming flowers, emphasizing the cyclical nature of growth and personal evolution.
Tune in to discover how valuing the process over outcomes can lead to thriving practices, both personally and communally. Our conversation centers on the courage it takes to release creative work into the world, trusting it will land where it's meant to grow. We delve into the transformative power of intentional practice, elevating routine into ritual, and the importance of choosing practices that truly serve us.
As we navigate life's transitions, the metaphor of autumn invites reflection and renewal, encouraging us to let go of what no longer serves us while embracing the unpredictability of new beginnings. Join us in a conversation that intertwines the beauty of nature with the journey of human growth and connection.
“This is deep, no-nonsense grounding, taught lightly, with invitation and humor and curiosity. Profound and embodied in each line... I know I will return to this text over and over.”
—adrienne maree brown, author of Emergent Strategy (and previous Gratitude Blooming podcast guest)
ABOUT THE BOOK
Talking story, weaving poetry, and offering wisdom at the intersections of strategy, politics, and spiritual activism, When No Thing Works is a visionary guide to co-creating new worlds from one in crisis. It asks into the ways we can live well and
maintain our wholeness in an era of collective acceleration: the swiftly moving current, fed and shaped by human actions, that sweeps us toward ever uncertain futures. Grounded in Zen Buddhism, interconnection, and decades of community
activism, When No Thing Works explores questions like:
● As we stand at a threshold of collective change, what leaps must we make?
● How can we push through discord and polarization and meet these critical changepoints collectively?
● What practices, strategies, and spiritualities can align to vision a sustainable future for our communities and descendents?
● How can we step out of urgency to tend to our crises with wisdom, intention, and care?
ABOUT NORMA
Norma Wong, a life-long resident of Hawaiʻi, is a descendant of Native Hawaiians and Hakka Chinese immigrants. She has decades of experience in organizing, poli
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Create an intentional practice with your own Gratitude Blooming card deck, notecards, candle and much much more at our shop at www.gratitudeblooming.com.
Learn more about our co-hosts and special guest for Season 4:
Co-host Belinda Liu | Hestia Retreat Centers
Co-host Omar Brownson | Trickster's Guide to Immortality on Substack
Special Guest Dr. Paul Wang | The Dao Center
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave us a 5-star rating and review. Your feedback is valuable to us and helps us grow.
Share your thoughts and comments by emailing us at hello@gratitudeblooming.com. We love hearing from our
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Omar Brownson (00:04):
Hello Belinda.
Belinda Liu (00:06):
Hey, omar, so lovely for us to be back
together again.
Omar Brownson (00:12):
And today we are joined by former Gratitude
Blooming guest, but always ZenMaster and movement leader,
norma Wong.
We're delighted to have youback, and even more so since our
last guest was Adrienne MarieBrown, who was sharing her new
(00:32):
book, and so we invite ourlisteners if you haven't heard
that episode Adrienne MarieBrown's incredible movement
leader, poet, activist, mysticin lots of ways.
And so to have you, norma, whoI know she also counts as a
friend join us today, and Ican't wait to hear a little bit
(00:53):
more about your new book.
When no Thing Works, which dropson election day, but before
that, with all our guests, welove to pull a gratitude
blooming card, and when weinvite folks to do that, with
all our guests, we love to pulla gratitude blooming card.
And when we invite folks to dothat, we really invite you to
also just pause and reflectverbally if there's a question
(01:19):
or intention that you're holding.
We like to think of almost thegratitude blooming cards as a
way to ask Pachamama, motherNature, the plant world a
question and how we might thinkabout that question or intention
through those eyes.
Norma Wong (01:37):
Well, thank you, omar.
Thank you so very much forhaving me back.
I actually thought that thispodcast is a one and done right.
Once having come, well, one isdone.
But I guess not.
So here I am back again.
Omar Brownson (01:52):
No, we are in a constant state of emergence here
, and so it is what is beingcalled to us.
I don't know what would youcall it, belinda?
Belinda Liu (02:02):
Well, I love that we're getting to see the spiral
of the conversation so that wecan really build on some themes
that were alive from the pastand also hear from you, norma,
what is most present for you inthis moment, in your life and in
the work that you do.
So, yeah, if there was onecentral question or focus that
(02:25):
you have right now, today, inthis moment, what would that be?
Norma Wong (02:31):
Let's see what the card emerges.
Omar Brownson (02:42):
All right, we have seven rows, six columns.
I'll scroll and you can justtell me when to pause okay, so
third roll, third card all right, let's see uh, card number six,
represented by the dandelionand the theme of tenacity.
Can you appreciate the time andeffort required to nurture the
(03:05):
things you truly love?
And when you look at the art orthis particular plant, the
dandelion or the theme oftenacity, what comes up for you
in this moment in time?
Norma Wong (03:17):
What comes up to me is where does tenacity begin and
stubbornness end?
So, and you know, dandelion.
To me, it's the perfect flowerfor this, which is to say that
(03:37):
its persistence is not alwayswelcome, but it is so.
And if one took the time to eatdandelions, they're actually
quite delicious.
So a perfect flower for thissentiment.
Omar Brownson (04:12):
That is a great question.
Where does tenacity and andstubbornness begin?
Belinda, you've been persistent, with gratitude blooming.
Belinda Liu (04:15):
I don't know what comes up for you in this card
yeah, every time I see this card, I feel like it's's a big stop
sign on the road You're havinggone on this long journey.
Maybe it's a marathon, and thenyou get the chance to really
pause and reflect on the journeyof what has been and also
(04:37):
contemplate, well, what is nextfor this commitment, for this
thing that I truly love, and Ilove the invitation to
contemplate the shadow oftenacity which is stubbornness.
Sometimes it's time to let goand let things take a pause to
(04:57):
see what else wants to emergeand, with gratitude blooming,
what's been beautiful is.
This card continues to show upevery time.
We've had this question of arewe complete yet?
You know, normal, like you said, I thought this was done at
this episode, you know, but nowhere's another episode with you,
and so I would love to hearfrom you just what is the thing
(05:21):
that you're cultivating rightnow and nurturing in your life
that you're like yes, I lovethis thing and I want to keep
tending to it because it feelsso right you know I well.
Norma Wong (05:34):
First of all, I am a monkey.
You know I am a monkey that hasmade their way around the
universe in five cycles.
So, from the Asian perspective,that, having made its way
around five cycles now, eightyears ago, that I'm invited to
(05:57):
hold the curiosity andplayfulness of childhood once
again, that's the culturalpermission that is given to us
and that seems like anindulgence in this particular
fraught moment on Mother Earth.
And yet I'm trying to hold itin that way, which is to say, if
(06:22):
we're not curious and playfulabout what we think about our
next chapter as human beings,then the wormhole is pretty
complete.
It's pretty complete.
And so to hold this time withthe tenacity that it needs, but
(06:46):
also not only buried in theroots of the dandelions, but in
the flowers as well, I thinkit's an important reminder.
Omar Brownson (07:01):
When I look at the dandelion, what I appreciate
and it's not captured here inthis image is when it turns from
this like yellow flower andthen it closes in on itself and
then it reopens as this, likewhite ball with like a thousand
seeds, and to me that's like oneof the most powerful
(07:24):
transformation.
It's not like a butterfly, it'swhere it's one-to-one, like one
caterpillar creates onebutterfly.
This dandelion goes from oneflower to then a thousand seeds.
And so in this moment I knowyou said you're in a particular
cycle and in this cycle I thinkyou've just hit 3 million miles.
(07:46):
Am I remembering?
There are 2 million miles, alarge amount of miles on flying
across time and space, and somaybe, just from that sort of
lens of flying and I'm imaginingyou flying like the seeds of
the dandelion across time andspace what has been some of the
(08:09):
things that you've been able tokind of see that is important
for this moment that we're in.
Norma Wong (08:18):
I, indeed I just passed three million miles on
one of our national carriers,whom I declined to promote, even
though they've been very goodto me with respect to this
particular mileage moment, andwhat it means is that I've spent
over 240 days in an airplaneover the course of time since
(08:45):
1986.
And it was a startling number tome, but what I realized is that
, for someone like myself, thatjust means more meditation time,
and so not just where I havegone and people that I have met
(09:05):
and spoken to and worked with,but also the ways in which it is
necessary to reflect upon thatwhich has just happened and to
reflect upon that which is goingto occur, upon that which is
going to occur.
And having to travel in thatway, in the technology that we
(09:29):
have not yet, at the speed oflight or a Scotty beam me up, is
actually a blessing, because aslong as it takes us time to get
(09:50):
somewhere and time to come back, then we have time to resettle
into understanding what may beimportant and to set aside that
which is not, and so I see thisparticular moment as requiring
that, and I try to do that, evenif I'm not on a plane every
other week, but I call it theblessing of having spent that
(10:12):
much time in a chair.
Belinda Liu (10:15):
I love that you focused on the process versus
the milestones of these 3million miles we often, I think,
in our modern life, look at,well, what was the outcome of
this thing, what was even thebig lesson learned of these
travels?
And you honed in on the processof the journey, which I so
(10:38):
appreciate, because even thejourney that Omar and I've been
on of co-creating with GratitudeBlooming and the spirit of
nature has very much been aboutthat.
It's been about the processmore than what's going to happen
as a result of this process, asa result of our love and our
effort to nurture GratitudeBlooming.
(11:00):
And you're making me remember,too, one of the things I love
about the dandelion which Ilearned only in the period of
producing the podcast is howthose beautiful yellow flowers
that grow like on sidewalks andeverywhere, how they close at
night and open up again, andopen up again, and this period
(11:30):
of rest and pause that is neededto be able to keep moving
forward, and so I love that.
That's a bit of what you'retalking about, as well as just
taking the time to be in theliminal spaces as you are
transitioning.
And we'd love to hear how thebook idea came to you and why
now?
Why, in this moment, are youinspired to share this story?
Norma Wong (11:57):
So a truth telling among friends, as we are here,
that this book is a book that istraditionally published, which
is to say that although I havewritten things papers, even
volumes in the past, thatthey've just been things that
have been printed and then givento people that are my students
(12:24):
or acquaintances or for whom Iwish to share something or
another, but never traditionallypublished.
And traditionally publishedmeans that it will come into the
hands of people that I havenever met and will never meet,
and that is essentially both thereason I wrote it and also the
(12:45):
reason why I hesitate.
And so this book was written asa culmination of two years of
effort by Todd James and I'mjust going to name him and you
can publicize that and that'sfine with me and Todd literally
spent two years encouraging meto this endeavor.
(13:08):
He actually did not necessarilyhave any notion in mind on what
the book would be about.
He just pursued the notion ofsending whatever may be potent
out into the world to people forwhom neither he nor I will have
(13:32):
ever met.
And finally, that actuallybecame the reason, which is to
say that if we are going aboutthe work of helping to bring
along human evolution to theextent that we may be moving
(13:54):
into more thriving than collapse, then can we do that fast
enough with just putting peoplein front of us or having people
find their way to us, or do weneed to take measures that just
take the chance that, whateverit is that is being offered
(14:20):
humbly, with care, with anunderstanding that not
everything will be understood Ifwe take the chance and we just
send it out?
You know, like the dandeliondoes, dandelion doesn't know if
its seeds are going to meetasphalt and not the place in the
(14:45):
asphalt where there is going tobe a bit of water or a little
bit of dirt to be in.
It doesn't know whether it'sgoing to meet that or whether
it's going to meet you know, awell-groomed yard for which the
dandelion will find nurturingground, but the owner might not.
(15:07):
You know, it doesn't know, itjust goes, it just goes, it just
goes, and so this is a bit ofthat kind of thing.
It's a bit of that kind ofthing.
Omar Brownson (15:23):
I'm hearing a radical act of trust in sort of
you know the seed going out andfinding the place it's meant to
land.
As someone who now spends a lotof time focused on gardening,
you know there's this paradoxyou spend a lot of time
nurturing something and it mayor may not survive, and I don't
(15:45):
have to look far to my owngarden plot to see success and
failure.
And then this dandelion, whichno one is cultivating and yet is
thriving, and so there'ssomething interesting about this
idea of like what wants to liveright, and I think the way you
sort of described it is just nowis this idea of thriving versus
(16:06):
collapse.
And I appreciate you invokingTaj's name.
He is, in some ways, how I gotto connect with Adrienne Murray
Brown, reading her book EmergentStrategies and being inspired
by Rainbow Eucalyptus Trees toreach out to Taj, which is how I
know you, and so it's just afun.
(16:28):
Maybe that is this pollinatingeffect that is happening from
reading a book to reconnectingto a friend, to now being I
think it's probably two or threeyears in a series of practices
with you.
That's one of my favoritethings that you sort of teach is
this idea that practice isanything that disrupts habit and
(16:52):
you know, belinda picked up onyour three million miles and
what you focused on she calledprocess or practice, like the
practice of meditating and beingpresent for those 246 days.
What practices do you think maybe inspired by this book?
And, if I may be so sort ofpushing the envelope a little
(17:16):
bit, we've been talking, atgratitude blooming, about how do
we move from habit to practiceto ritual right and really
recognize that in some ways,practice isn't just like this
biohacking shortcut you you know, optimization of life.
It's something maybe a littlebit more speaking to something,
(17:36):
an ideal, that how we want toactually live, not just by
ourselves but together.
Norma Wong (17:42):
Yeah, so you know, practice is an intention to
interrupt habit.
But there are so many things wecould practice and I think
right now we're actually calledto practice that which can
practically serve us.
Now don't just pick thatpractices to practice practice,
(18:06):
but to do the things that willfeed us, that will clean up
after us, that will createthings that are needed, that
will tenderly take down thethings that no longer serve us,
to thank them, whatever it isthat we put our efforts into but
(18:30):
no longer serve us, and findgood homes so that we can move
on and that we're not justcreating additional rubbish by
leaving them behind, leavingthose things behind, leaving
those artifacts behind.
And so I practice flower.
I've done this since the year2000, so it's now coming in 25
(18:58):
years, next year, and a shockingthing for people when they
observe us practice flower isthat we don't leave it up, we
take it down.
If we have it in it up, we takeit down.
If we have it in our house, wecertainly take it down before
it's lost its dignity, beforeit's showing its wear and tear,
(19:22):
and that it cannot take itselfdown.
And so we take it down andperhaps it has another life,
perhaps it may be compost, buteven if that is not the case, to
leave it just deteriorating isa reminder of how we move on
(19:45):
without closing things properly,as if we just discard them.
So there are these multiplepractices, I believe, that are
available to us, and reallyimportantly is to orient
ourselves into the horizon ofour imagination.
(20:09):
That is, a place that isthriving and is interdependent.
There is little usefulness forus to practice treading water,
and there's little usefulness topractice taking revenge upon
people because of the thingsthat they have done to us, and
(20:34):
there is little to be gained bypracticing survival for our own
sake, knowing that others willfall and may even be taken out
by our actions in order to justsurvive.
I think there's very little tobe gained by those things, and
(20:58):
so the practice of thrivingtakes a good amount of
discipline to keep doing that,day in, day out, when things are
not going well, and there's somuch for us to be reactive to.
As any gardener knows, the fiveminutes that you spend pulling
(21:22):
weeds will make a hugedifference.
If you do that every day, whatyou have in mind is not the
weeds that you're pulling out,but the room that you are
creating for life to be abundant.
Life wants to be abundant.
It wants to, but it needs airright, it needs a bit of water,
(21:47):
it needs to be able to have sun,but not too much.
It needs soil that is as richas you can make it.
So it needs these elements andthe practice of life, I believe,
is to be observant and inpractice of the actual creation
(22:12):
and cultivation of life.
Belinda Liu (22:15):
That resonates so much for me.
As a land steward I'm.
You know from big to smallthings.
You know I've been getting intothe habit of arranging flowers
for people you know in theirspace and it's so interesting to
watch how quickly differentkinds of flowers, especially in
this new environment of the bigisland.
(22:37):
You know what's the life cycleand it's really interesting when
you think about, when you gointo a space, you can see like,
how well has it been tended to,based on what feels alive and
what is deteriorating and isstill there.
Why is it still there, honor,that it has completed its cycle?
(22:58):
And I'm really curious fromthis perspective of choosing
when is it time to fertilizemore to give it more opportunity
for growth and life, and whenis it time to allow it to
compost and die with dignity.
Because I think we're living inthese times where it's very
(23:21):
confusing and I think you evensaid that in the word of
stubbornness.
I think the shadow side ofresilience is that we stay in
that situation that's nothelping us or serving us for too
long, and then we really paythe price, you know, in a
sickness or in a toxic culture,you know, just letting it
(23:42):
continue.
So I'm really curious for youas an individual.
How do you make those choicesin your life of should I stay,
should I go, should I continueto fertilize or let's start
something new?
You know?
Norma Wong (23:57):
You know I have a reputation for moving along
faster than people may think of.
You know, like when is the timeto go, but what I know is that,
from a personal perspective, Iprobably stayed too long in
(24:18):
terms of the hope of somethingbeing able to happen.
Right, you know that's a humanthing.
I believe and you know it'salso ego that you have something
to contribute, and you know.
And then there are all kinds ofways that people may play with
(24:40):
your ego and to entice you tostay.
Yes, certainly this has happened, and I know that it is
sometimes something of a shockwhen I move on to the people who
are still there, and that'sbecause my practice is to have
(25:03):
as little drama around departingas I can.
So I try to tend to thingsgracefully but have as little
drama around it, and so,therefore, people will
essentially say to me oh, Ididn't know that you were having
a problem and things like that,and so I am needing to care to
(25:30):
other people's desires in termsof what the stability look like.
And it's an interesting thingbecause even in spaces where
change is on your agenda, youstill want stability in terms of
(25:52):
how you operate, and it's justa human construct thing, and the
complication is that we're in atime in which, if you are truly
dedicated to change, then youyourself cannot be wedded to
(26:14):
stability.
You have to be able to livewith a certain amount of
instability, but to have yourgyroscope working in that
instability.
And so there are these ways inwhich we are being called to be
more complex beings than perhapswe have become accustomed to
(26:38):
with modern life, which is tosay, I think that most of our
post-industrial ancestors wouldkind of laugh at the fragility
of what humans have become Withall of these modern constructs
around us.
We have an expectation, forexample, that it doesn't matter
(27:03):
what the weather is, we will beable to be comfortable, for
example, whereas they hadabsolutely no notion that that
was going to be the case, and so, therefore, they had to be
ahead of the curve with respectto the weather in preparation
(27:24):
for it, and then, if it got muchcolder or much hotter, they
would have to take immediatemeasures for that, for which the
whole village would have had tohave prepared, for if you're
going to have people on theother side of the season, those
are just things that they haveto do, and we've become soft
(27:47):
around those things and beingsoft and sort of pampered does
not discount the fact that theseare very, very difficult times
right now for the earth itselfand for all the humans that are
(28:08):
on it.
Omar Brownson (28:09):
One of the practices that I've been
appreciating and this camethrough the Dao De Ching series
and just my own continuedexploration of Daoism in
particular is just everything isin cycles and seasons, and I
guess my question for you is atthe sort of scale of humanity,
(28:33):
what season do you feel like weare in?
Norma Wong (28:40):
Oh, that's a very interesting question.
So I would say that we'reentering the autumn period, with
respect to humanity, and we'remeeting the potential of a long
winter.
So we're in that and the reasonwe're filled with dread is
(29:06):
because we forget, actually,that nature moves from season to
season and comes back uponitself again.
If we internalize that,understood that, then we
wouldn't say, well, if we're inthe fall and there may be a long
winter, then there's actuallynothing to do.
(29:29):
There's actually a lot to bedone.
There's a lot.
There are all kinds of waysthat we can actually make it
possible for our descendants tolook back and say, oh, you know
(29:54):
those ancestors.
They're pretty weird but, yeah,they had good hearts and they
had the discipline of work thatwould allow us to benefit from
the hardship that they saw, andwe're thankful for that.
(30:19):
We're thankful for that.
So, when you're in the autumnperiod of your own life or in
the life of a species, that'sthe, I believe, one of the most
fruitful times.
It is when harvests are made,it's when striving is no longer
(30:43):
the driver of things, and sothere's that part of it that's
going through Now.
Humans in this time areobviously at all different
cycles, and so for the youngpeople who are resentful that
(31:06):
humankind would be at this placeand they're young people and
they don't deserve that I wouldsay we could not engineer that.
We would be the people whowould be alive, who would make
such a difference in terms ofwhat will happen next.
(31:27):
You know, we're the people thatmeet the moment, that meet this
moment, and so, whether you'rea young person, or you know, or
you're Jimmy Carter who justvoted from his hospice bed, that
(31:47):
notion of humanity.
Meeting this moment feels to melike a awesome thing.
It's just awesome, one thatwill fill our descendants with
(32:09):
wonder one that will fill ourdescendants with wonder.
Belinda Liu (32:17):
I love how you are alchemizing the polarities of
play and hard work.
I feel that in my body as youspeak, norma of yeah, this is
why we're here right now, and Ilove this metaphor of the fall
season.
This is the time of year where,yeah, we're looking at the trees
that have died from the summerand, you know, honorably asking
(32:44):
them if they wouldn't mind beingfirewood for a year from now
and making sure that we can staywarm with the amount of wood
that we have, you know, anddrying that.
And so I feel that kind ofseasonal shift as you were
speaking, and it is such abeautiful way for us to not feel
(33:04):
lost in despair or hopeless inthis time collectively.
And I am curious how you arepreparing and harvesting this
fall, whether it be a veryphysical act of getting ready
(33:25):
for a winter.
Even though in Hawaii it's hardto imagine, I do notice the
light is going faster and faster.
So I'd love to hear how you'reholding this on the many levels
that you hold for yourself andthen for the book that is being
out in the world soon.
(33:46):
How are you holding and beingwith that and when you think
about preparation?
Norma Wong (33:53):
For me to step into this moment as fully as possible
and to take the care of each24-hour cycle, to understand
that that is the only way thatwe can be in the longest of
marches is if we take to each24-hour cycle to renew that that
(34:19):
is the gift that nature hasgiven us.
It is as forcibly as possibletelling us that when the sun is
no longer in view that it istime to rest, and so that when
the sun is barely above thehorizon and coming back into our
(34:43):
view, that we would be wideawake and ready to go.
So these simple things that,from a human perspective, we
frequently say that well, I'lljust let my will, the
stubbornness part of thedandelion, just pull us through.
(35:06):
I have not found that to bevery useful at this time.
Perhaps it's also because of myage.
A younger person, a youngerNorma, might be able to work
through the night, a Norma thathas gone five cycles through as
a monkey not so much.
But I'm also mindful that thebook, for example, is coming
(35:34):
into the stream of things from aWestern distribution
perspective, which means thatit's moving out with people and
structures that I gave approvalto but I actually don't have
(35:55):
daily control over and they willmove out and it will get into
hands and into people and itwill be read and all this type
of stuff, and we cannotnecessarily measure what the
impact will be.
Moving forward and also movingbackwards into where I am or
(36:18):
where the people are, who I amin proximity with or practicing
in proximity with, omar.
You've been in these spaceswith me and so you're seeing
like how growth has occurred inthose spaces and that is by
relationship.
(36:38):
We bring people in byrelationship and now we will
have the possibility that peoplewill come into space where the
only relationship they wouldhave is through the written word
, through having read thewritten word and for it to have
(37:00):
reached a place in themselvesthat asks them to come forward
and to be a part of communitythat is engaged.
And if you prepare for what youask for, will it be too many
zucchinis Is what a gardenerasks at the beginning of her
(37:25):
season, and the answer is alwaysyes, there will be too many
zucchini, because that's thenature of what zucchinis are.
It is their nature to provideso much abundance at a
particular moment that nogardener will know what to do
(37:45):
with too many zucchinis and theonly thing you can do is to do
all the things to cook and roastand pickle, and to do all the
things and to not worry too muchabout the fact that you had no
(38:06):
control over the zucchinis.
The notion that you thought youhad is a delusion in many cases
.
So I'm trying to interrupt asmany delusions as I might have
about things and to be a goodstrategist, but not to be
(38:28):
someone who is caught in anexpectation around things.
The future will unfold quicklyenough, and so all I could do is
to prepare to meet that momentof too many zucchinis.
Omar Brownson (38:46):
I won't say how many zucchinis I did not grow
this season, but as we weretalking about flower, the
practice of flower, flowerarranging, we have a bouquet on
our dining room table from thisyoung 14-year-old boy who asked
my youngest daughter out forhomecoming this past week and
(39:11):
you know we talked about, well,what do we, you know, discard
and what do we keep.
And my daughter last night islike dad, can we take the roses
out and can you show me how tohang them upside down so we can
preserve them?
And so I just, you know thatvery practical of imagination,
of we'll just call this I don'teven puppy joy, we'll call this
(39:33):
moment with them.
But yeah, as you look at thissort of, you know a little bit
of what I heard you it's theWayne Gretzky like how are you
successful?
He said I don't go where thepuck is, I go where it's going.
Right, what would you tell my14-year-old daughter with?
Where the future is going, howto prepare.
Norma Wong (39:59):
Okay, let's see.
I would say there are ways inwhich we can prepare for
whatever the future may bring,and among those would be can we
(40:19):
keep singing?
Can we give comfort and joy tosomeone who is in need of
comfort and joy?
Can we receive love and have noexpectation that love will come
(40:43):
out in a particular way, butthat it will always be there?
Do we know how to prepare ourown food, make delicious food
out of simple things for thepeoples that we love and for the
people that we see who may needfood?
Omar Brownson (41:06):
Wonderful pieces of practical advice.
Well, we appreciate you joiningus a second time.
We're very delighted andexcited for your book.
I know I've bought severalcopies already and they will be
my gifts for the holiday.
Any closing reflections,questions?
Belinda Norma.
Belinda Liu (41:26):
Well, very important one is how do we get
our hands on this preciouswisdom to have some hope for
these times?
How do people find the bookNorma?
Norma Wong (41:36):
Well, you know it's your independent bookseller will
probably have it.
I do have an author's website.
It's normawongcom website.
It's normawongcom, which Iallow the people who love me to
use, even though I had to closemy eyes and take a big gulp when
(41:59):
that occurred and you can go tothat website and there's some
information there and you canclick through and order your
book there and you can clickthrough and order your book.
Omar Brownson (42:13):
Wonderful Well.
Thank you again for joining us.
We appreciate your joy, yourmonkey spirit and all the wisdom
.
So thank you.
Norma Wong (42:19):
Thank you.
Hello Belinda.
Belinda Liu (00:06):
Hey, omar, so lovely for us to be back
together again.
Omar Brownson (00:12):
And today we are joined by former Gratitude
Blooming guest, but always ZenMaster and movement leader,
norma Wong.
We're delighted to have youback, and even more so since our
last guest was Adrienne MarieBrown, who was sharing her new
(00:32):
book, and so we invite ourlisteners if you haven't heard
that episode Adrienne MarieBrown's incredible movement
leader, poet, activist, mysticin lots of ways.
And so to have you, norma, whoI know she also counts as a
friend join us today, and Ican't wait to hear a little bit
(00:53):
more about your new book.
When no Thing Works, which dropson election day, but before
that, with all our guests, welove to pull a gratitude
blooming card, and when weinvite folks to do that, with
all our guests, we love to pulla gratitude blooming card.
And when we invite folks to dothat, we really invite you to
also just pause and reflectverbally if there's a question
(01:19):
or intention that you're holding.
We like to think of almost thegratitude blooming cards as a
way to ask Pachamama, motherNature, the plant world a
question and how we might thinkabout that question or intention
through those eyes.
Norma Wong (01:37):
Well, thank you, omar.
Thank you so very much forhaving me back.
I actually thought that thispodcast is a one and done right.
Once having come, well, one isdone.
But I guess not.
So here I am back again.
Omar Brownson (01:52):
No, we are in a constant state of emergence here
, and so it is what is beingcalled to us.
I don't know what would youcall it, belinda?
Belinda Liu (02:02):
Well, I love that we're getting to see the spiral
of the conversation so that wecan really build on some themes
that were alive from the pastand also hear from you, norma,
what is most present for you inthis moment, in your life and in
the work that you do.
So, yeah, if there was onecentral question or focus that
(02:25):
you have right now, today, inthis moment, what would that be?
Norma Wong (02:31):
Let's see what the card emerges.
Omar Brownson (02:42):
All right, we have seven rows, six columns.
I'll scroll and you can justtell me when to pause okay, so
third roll, third card all right, let's see uh, card number six,
represented by the dandelionand the theme of tenacity.
Can you appreciate the time andeffort required to nurture the
(03:05):
things you truly love?
And when you look at the art orthis particular plant, the
dandelion or the theme oftenacity, what comes up for you
in this moment in time?
Norma Wong (03:17):
What comes up to me is where does tenacity begin and
stubbornness end?
So, and you know, dandelion.
To me, it's the perfect flowerfor this, which is to say that
(03:37):
its persistence is not alwayswelcome, but it is so.
And if one took the time to eatdandelions, they're actually
quite delicious.
So a perfect flower for thissentiment.
Omar Brownson (04:12):
That is a great question.
Where does tenacity and andstubbornness begin?
Belinda, you've been persistent, with gratitude blooming.
Belinda Liu (04:15):
I don't know what comes up for you in this card
yeah, every time I see this card, I feel like it's's a big stop
sign on the road You're havinggone on this long journey.
Maybe it's a marathon, and thenyou get the chance to really
pause and reflect on the journeyof what has been and also
(04:37):
contemplate, well, what is nextfor this commitment, for this
thing that I truly love, and Ilove the invitation to
contemplate the shadow oftenacity which is stubbornness.
Sometimes it's time to let goand let things take a pause to
(04:57):
see what else wants to emergeand, with gratitude blooming,
what's been beautiful is.
This card continues to show upevery time.
We've had this question of arewe complete yet?
You know, normal, like you said, I thought this was done at
this episode, you know, but nowhere's another episode with you,
and so I would love to hearfrom you just what is the thing
(05:21):
that you're cultivating rightnow and nurturing in your life
that you're like yes, I lovethis thing and I want to keep
tending to it because it feelsso right you know I well.
Norma Wong (05:34):
First of all, I am a monkey.
You know I am a monkey that hasmade their way around the
universe in five cycles.
So, from the Asian perspective,that, having made its way
around five cycles now, eightyears ago, that I'm invited to
(05:57):
hold the curiosity andplayfulness of childhood once
again, that's the culturalpermission that is given to us
and that seems like anindulgence in this particular
fraught moment on Mother Earth.
And yet I'm trying to hold itin that way, which is to say, if
(06:22):
we're not curious and playfulabout what we think about our
next chapter as human beings,then the wormhole is pretty
complete.
It's pretty complete.
And so to hold this time withthe tenacity that it needs, but
(06:46):
also not only buried in theroots of the dandelions, but in
the flowers as well, I thinkit's an important reminder.
Omar Brownson (07:01):
When I look at the dandelion, what I appreciate
and it's not captured here inthis image is when it turns from
this like yellow flower andthen it closes in on itself and
then it reopens as this, likewhite ball with like a thousand
seeds, and to me that's like oneof the most powerful
(07:24):
transformation.
It's not like a butterfly, it'swhere it's one-to-one, like one
caterpillar creates onebutterfly.
This dandelion goes from oneflower to then a thousand seeds.
And so in this moment I knowyou said you're in a particular
cycle and in this cycle I thinkyou've just hit 3 million miles.
(07:46):
Am I remembering?
There are 2 million miles, alarge amount of miles on flying
across time and space, and somaybe, just from that sort of
lens of flying and I'm imaginingyou flying like the seeds of
the dandelion across time andspace what has been some of the
(08:09):
things that you've been able tokind of see that is important
for this moment that we're in.
Norma Wong (08:18):
I, indeed I just passed three million miles on
one of our national carriers,whom I declined to promote, even
though they've been very goodto me with respect to this
particular mileage moment, andwhat it means is that I've spent
over 240 days in an airplaneover the course of time since
(08:45):
1986.
And it was a startling number tome, but what I realized is that
, for someone like myself, thatjust means more meditation time,
and so not just where I havegone and people that I have met
(09:05):
and spoken to and worked with,but also the ways in which it is
necessary to reflect upon thatwhich has just happened and to
reflect upon that which is goingto occur, upon that which is
going to occur.
And having to travel in thatway, in the technology that we
(09:29):
have not yet, at the speed oflight or a Scotty beam me up, is
actually a blessing, because aslong as it takes us time to get
(09:50):
somewhere and time to come back, then we have time to resettle
into understanding what may beimportant and to set aside that
which is not, and so I see thisparticular moment as requiring
that, and I try to do that, evenif I'm not on a plane every
other week, but I call it theblessing of having spent that
(10:12):
much time in a chair.
Belinda Liu (10:15):
I love that you focused on the process versus
the milestones of these 3million miles we often, I think,
in our modern life, look at,well, what was the outcome of
this thing, what was even thebig lesson learned of these
travels?
And you honed in on the processof the journey, which I so
(10:38):
appreciate, because even thejourney that Omar and I've been
on of co-creating with GratitudeBlooming and the spirit of
nature has very much been aboutthat.
It's been about the processmore than what's going to happen
as a result of this process, asa result of our love and our
effort to nurture GratitudeBlooming.
(11:00):
And you're making me remember,too, one of the things I love
about the dandelion which Ilearned only in the period of
producing the podcast is howthose beautiful yellow flowers
that grow like on sidewalks andeverywhere, how they close at
night and open up again, andopen up again, and this period
(11:30):
of rest and pause that is neededto be able to keep moving
forward, and so I love that.
That's a bit of what you'retalking about, as well as just
taking the time to be in theliminal spaces as you are
transitioning.
And we'd love to hear how thebook idea came to you and why
now?
Why, in this moment, are youinspired to share this story?
Norma Wong (11:57):
So a truth telling among friends, as we are here,
that this book is a book that istraditionally published, which
is to say that although I havewritten things papers, even
volumes in the past, thatthey've just been things that
have been printed and then givento people that are my students
(12:24):
or acquaintances or for whom Iwish to share something or
another, but never traditionallypublished.
And traditionally publishedmeans that it will come into the
hands of people that I havenever met and will never meet,
and that is essentially both thereason I wrote it and also the
(12:45):
reason why I hesitate.
And so this book was written asa culmination of two years of
effort by Todd James and I'mjust going to name him and you
can publicize that and that'sfine with me and Todd literally
spent two years encouraging meto this endeavor.
(13:08):
He actually did not necessarilyhave any notion in mind on what
the book would be about.
He just pursued the notion ofsending whatever may be potent
out into the world to people forwhom neither he nor I will have
(13:32):
ever met.
And finally, that actuallybecame the reason, which is to
say that if we are going aboutthe work of helping to bring
along human evolution to theextent that we may be moving
(13:54):
into more thriving than collapse, then can we do that fast
enough with just putting peoplein front of us or having people
find their way to us, or do weneed to take measures that just
take the chance that, whateverit is that is being offered
(14:20):
humbly, with care, with anunderstanding that not
everything will be understood Ifwe take the chance and we just
send it out?
You know, like the dandeliondoes, dandelion doesn't know if
its seeds are going to meetasphalt and not the place in the
(14:45):
asphalt where there is going tobe a bit of water or a little
bit of dirt to be in.
It doesn't know whether it'sgoing to meet that or whether
it's going to meet you know, awell-groomed yard for which the
dandelion will find nurturingground, but the owner might not.
(15:07):
You know, it doesn't know, itjust goes, it just goes, it just
goes, and so this is a bit ofthat kind of thing.
It's a bit of that kind ofthing.
Omar Brownson (15:23):
I'm hearing a radical act of trust in sort of
you know the seed going out andfinding the place it's meant to
land.
As someone who now spends a lotof time focused on gardening,
you know there's this paradoxyou spend a lot of time
nurturing something and it mayor may not survive, and I don't
(15:45):
have to look far to my owngarden plot to see success and
failure.
And then this dandelion, whichno one is cultivating and yet is
thriving, and so there'ssomething interesting about this
idea of like what wants to liveright, and I think the way you
sort of described it is just nowis this idea of thriving versus
(16:06):
collapse.
And I appreciate you invokingTaj's name.
He is, in some ways, how I gotto connect with Adrienne Murray
Brown, reading her book EmergentStrategies and being inspired
by Rainbow Eucalyptus Trees toreach out to Taj, which is how I
know you, and so it's just afun.
(16:28):
Maybe that is this pollinatingeffect that is happening from
reading a book to reconnectingto a friend, to now being I
think it's probably two or threeyears in a series of practices
with you.
That's one of my favoritethings that you sort of teach is
this idea that practice isanything that disrupts habit and
(16:52):
you know, belinda picked up onyour three million miles and
what you focused on she calledprocess or practice, like the
practice of meditating and beingpresent for those 246 days.
What practices do you think maybe inspired by this book?
And, if I may be so sort ofpushing the envelope a little
(17:16):
bit, we've been talking, atgratitude blooming, about how do
we move from habit to practiceto ritual right and really
recognize that in some ways,practice isn't just like this
biohacking shortcut you you know, optimization of life.
It's something maybe a littlebit more speaking to something,
(17:36):
an ideal, that how we want toactually live, not just by
ourselves but together.
Norma Wong (17:42):
Yeah, so you know, practice is an intention to
interrupt habit.
But there are so many things wecould practice and I think
right now we're actually calledto practice that which can
practically serve us.
Now don't just pick thatpractices to practice practice,
(18:06):
but to do the things that willfeed us, that will clean up
after us, that will createthings that are needed, that
will tenderly take down thethings that no longer serve us,
to thank them, whatever it isthat we put our efforts into but
(18:30):
no longer serve us, and findgood homes so that we can move
on and that we're not justcreating additional rubbish by
leaving them behind, leavingthose things behind, leaving
those artifacts behind.
And so I practice flower.
I've done this since the year2000, so it's now coming in 25
(18:58):
years, next year, and a shockingthing for people when they
observe us practice flower isthat we don't leave it up, we
take it down.
If we have it in it up, we takeit down.
If we have it in our house, wecertainly take it down before
it's lost its dignity, beforeit's showing its wear and tear,
(19:22):
and that it cannot take itselfdown.
And so we take it down andperhaps it has another life,
perhaps it may be compost, buteven if that is not the case, to
leave it just deteriorating isa reminder of how we move on
(19:45):
without closing things properly,as if we just discard them.
So there are these multiplepractices, I believe, that are
available to us, and reallyimportantly is to orient
ourselves into the horizon ofour imagination.
(20:09):
That is, a place that isthriving and is interdependent.
There is little usefulness forus to practice treading water,
and there's little usefulness topractice taking revenge upon
people because of the thingsthat they have done to us, and
(20:34):
there is little to be gained bypracticing survival for our own
sake, knowing that others willfall and may even be taken out
by our actions in order to justsurvive.
I think there's very little tobe gained by those things, and
(20:58):
so the practice of thrivingtakes a good amount of
discipline to keep doing that,day in, day out, when things are
not going well, and there's somuch for us to be reactive to.
As any gardener knows, the fiveminutes that you spend pulling
(21:22):
weeds will make a hugedifference.
If you do that every day, whatyou have in mind is not the
weeds that you're pulling out,but the room that you are
creating for life to be abundant.
Life wants to be abundant.
It wants to, but it needs airright, it needs a bit of water,
(21:47):
it needs to be able to have sun,but not too much.
It needs soil that is as richas you can make it.
So it needs these elements andthe practice of life, I believe,
is to be observant and inpractice of the actual creation
(22:12):
and cultivation of life.
Belinda Liu (22:15):
That resonates so much for me.
As a land steward I'm.
You know from big to smallthings.
You know I've been getting intothe habit of arranging flowers
for people you know in theirspace and it's so interesting to
watch how quickly differentkinds of flowers, especially in
this new environment of the bigisland.
(22:37):
You know what's the life cycleand it's really interesting when
you think about, when you gointo a space, you can see like,
how well has it been tended to,based on what feels alive and
what is deteriorating and isstill there.
Why is it still there, honor,that it has completed its cycle?
(22:58):
And I'm really curious fromthis perspective of choosing
when is it time to fertilizemore to give it more opportunity
for growth and life, and whenis it time to allow it to
compost and die with dignity.
Because I think we're living inthese times where it's very
(23:21):
confusing and I think you evensaid that in the word of
stubbornness.
I think the shadow side ofresilience is that we stay in
that situation that's nothelping us or serving us for too
long, and then we really paythe price, you know, in a
sickness or in a toxic culture,you know, just letting it
(23:42):
continue.
So I'm really curious for youas an individual.
How do you make those choicesin your life of should I stay,
should I go, should I continueto fertilize or let's start
something new?
You know?
Norma Wong (23:57):
You know I have a reputation for moving along
faster than people may think of.
You know, like when is the timeto go, but what I know is that,
from a personal perspective, Iprobably stayed too long in
(24:18):
terms of the hope of somethingbeing able to happen.
Right, you know that's a humanthing.
I believe and you know it'salso ego that you have something
to contribute, and you know.
And then there are all kinds ofways that people may play with
(24:40):
your ego and to entice you tostay.
Yes, certainly this has happened, and I know that it is
sometimes something of a shockwhen I move on to the people who
are still there, and that'sbecause my practice is to have
(25:03):
as little drama around departingas I can.
So I try to tend to thingsgracefully but have as little
drama around it, and so,therefore, people will
essentially say to me oh, Ididn't know that you were having
a problem and things like that,and so I am needing to care to
(25:30):
other people's desires in termsof what the stability look like.
And it's an interesting thingbecause even in spaces where
change is on your agenda, youstill want stability in terms of
(25:52):
how you operate, and it's justa human construct thing, and the
complication is that we're in atime in which, if you are truly
dedicated to change, then youyourself cannot be wedded to
(26:14):
stability.
You have to be able to livewith a certain amount of
instability, but to have yourgyroscope working in that
instability.
And so there are these ways inwhich we are being called to be
more complex beings than perhapswe have become accustomed to
(26:38):
with modern life, which is tosay, I think that most of our
post-industrial ancestors wouldkind of laugh at the fragility
of what humans have become Withall of these modern constructs
around us.
We have an expectation, forexample, that it doesn't matter
(27:03):
what the weather is, we will beable to be comfortable, for
example, whereas they hadabsolutely no notion that that
was going to be the case, and so, therefore, they had to be
ahead of the curve with respectto the weather in preparation
(27:24):
for it, and then, if it got muchcolder or much hotter, they
would have to take immediatemeasures for that, for which the
whole village would have had tohave prepared, for if you're
going to have people on theother side of the season, those
are just things that they haveto do, and we've become soft
(27:47):
around those things and beingsoft and sort of pampered does
not discount the fact that theseare very, very difficult times
right now for the earth itselfand for all the humans that are
(28:08):
on it.
Omar Brownson (28:09):
One of the practices that I've been
appreciating and this camethrough the Dao De Ching series
and just my own continuedexploration of Daoism in
particular is just everything isin cycles and seasons, and I
guess my question for you is atthe sort of scale of humanity,
(28:33):
what season do you feel like weare in?
Norma Wong (28:40):
Oh, that's a very interesting question.
So I would say that we'reentering the autumn period, with
respect to humanity, and we'remeeting the potential of a long
winter.
So we're in that and the reasonwe're filled with dread is
(29:06):
because we forget, actually,that nature moves from season to
season and comes back uponitself again.
If we internalize that,understood that, then we
wouldn't say, well, if we're inthe fall and there may be a long
winter, then there's actuallynothing to do.
(29:29):
There's actually a lot to bedone.
There's a lot.
There are all kinds of waysthat we can actually make it
possible for our descendants tolook back and say, oh, you know
(29:54):
those ancestors.
They're pretty weird but, yeah,they had good hearts and they
had the discipline of work thatwould allow us to benefit from
the hardship that they saw, andwe're thankful for that.
(30:19):
We're thankful for that.
So, when you're in the autumnperiod of your own life or in
the life of a species, that'sthe, I believe, one of the most
fruitful times.
It is when harvests are made,it's when striving is no longer
(30:43):
the driver of things, and sothere's that part of it that's
going through Now.
Humans in this time areobviously at all different
cycles, and so for the youngpeople who are resentful that
(31:06):
humankind would be at this placeand they're young people and
they don't deserve that I wouldsay we could not engineer that.
We would be the people whowould be alive, who would make
such a difference in terms ofwhat will happen next.
(31:27):
You know, we're the people thatmeet the moment, that meet this
moment, and so, whether you'rea young person, or you know, or
you're Jimmy Carter who justvoted from his hospice bed, that
(31:47):
notion of humanity.
Meeting this moment feels to melike a awesome thing.
It's just awesome, one thatwill fill our descendants with
(32:09):
wonder one that will fill ourdescendants with wonder.
Belinda Liu (32:17):
I love how you are alchemizing the polarities of
play and hard work.
I feel that in my body as youspeak, norma of yeah, this is
why we're here right now, and Ilove this metaphor of the fall
season.
This is the time of year where,yeah, we're looking at the trees
that have died from the summerand, you know, honorably asking
(32:44):
them if they wouldn't mind beingfirewood for a year from now
and making sure that we can staywarm with the amount of wood
that we have, you know, anddrying that.
And so I feel that kind ofseasonal shift as you were
speaking, and it is such abeautiful way for us to not feel
(33:04):
lost in despair or hopeless inthis time collectively.
And I am curious how you arepreparing and harvesting this
fall, whether it be a veryphysical act of getting ready
(33:25):
for a winter.
Even though in Hawaii it's hardto imagine, I do notice the
light is going faster and faster.
So I'd love to hear how you'reholding this on the many levels
that you hold for yourself andthen for the book that is being
out in the world soon.
(33:46):
How are you holding and beingwith that and when you think
about preparation?
Norma Wong (33:53):
For me to step into this moment as fully as possible
and to take the care of each24-hour cycle, to understand
that that is the only way thatwe can be in the longest of
marches is if we take to each24-hour cycle to renew that that
(34:19):
is the gift that nature hasgiven us.
It is as forcibly as possibletelling us that when the sun is
no longer in view that it istime to rest, and so that when
the sun is barely above thehorizon and coming back into our
(34:43):
view, that we would be wideawake and ready to go.
So these simple things that,from a human perspective, we
frequently say that well, I'lljust let my will, the
stubbornness part of thedandelion, just pull us through.
(35:06):
I have not found that to bevery useful at this time.
Perhaps it's also because of myage.
A younger person, a youngerNorma, might be able to work
through the night, a Norma thathas gone five cycles through as
a monkey not so much.
But I'm also mindful that thebook, for example, is coming
(35:34):
into the stream of things from aWestern distribution
perspective, which means thatit's moving out with people and
structures that I gave approvalto but I actually don't have
(35:55):
daily control over and they willmove out and it will get into
hands and into people and itwill be read and all this type
of stuff, and we cannotnecessarily measure what the
impact will be.
Moving forward and also movingbackwards into where I am or
(36:18):
where the people are, who I amin proximity with or practicing
in proximity with, omar.
You've been in these spaceswith me and so you're seeing
like how growth has occurred inthose spaces and that is by
relationship.
(36:38):
We bring people in byrelationship and now we will
have the possibility that peoplewill come into space where the
only relationship they wouldhave is through the written word
, through having read thewritten word and for it to have
(37:00):
reached a place in themselvesthat asks them to come forward
and to be a part of communitythat is engaged.
And if you prepare for what youask for, will it be too many
zucchinis Is what a gardenerasks at the beginning of her
(37:25):
season, and the answer is alwaysyes, there will be too many
zucchini, because that's thenature of what zucchinis are.
It is their nature to provideso much abundance at a
particular moment that nogardener will know what to do
(37:45):
with too many zucchinis and theonly thing you can do is to do
all the things to cook and roastand pickle, and to do all the
things and to not worry too muchabout the fact that you had no
(38:06):
control over the zucchinis.
The notion that you thought youhad is a delusion in many cases
.
So I'm trying to interrupt asmany delusions as I might have
about things and to be a goodstrategist, but not to be
(38:28):
someone who is caught in anexpectation around things.
The future will unfold quicklyenough, and so all I could do is
to prepare to meet that momentof too many zucchinis.
Omar Brownson (38:46):
I won't say how many zucchinis I did not grow
this season, but as we weretalking about flower, the
practice of flower, flowerarranging, we have a bouquet on
our dining room table from thisyoung 14-year-old boy who asked
my youngest daughter out forhomecoming this past week and
(39:11):
you know we talked about, well,what do we, you know, discard
and what do we keep.
And my daughter last night islike dad, can we take the roses
out and can you show me how tohang them upside down so we can
preserve them?
And so I just, you know thatvery practical of imagination,
of we'll just call this I don'teven puppy joy, we'll call this
(39:33):
moment with them.
But yeah, as you look at thissort of, you know a little bit
of what I heard you it's theWayne Gretzky like how are you
successful?
He said I don't go where thepuck is, I go where it's going.
Right, what would you tell my14-year-old daughter with?
Where the future is going, howto prepare.
Norma Wong (39:59):
Okay, let's see.
I would say there are ways inwhich we can prepare for
whatever the future may bring,and among those would be can we
(40:19):
keep singing?
Can we give comfort and joy tosomeone who is in need of
comfort and joy?
Can we receive love and have noexpectation that love will come
(40:43):
out in a particular way, butthat it will always be there?
Do we know how to prepare ourown food, make delicious food
out of simple things for thepeoples that we love and for the
people that we see who may needfood?
Omar Brownson (41:06):
Wonderful pieces of practical advice.
Well, we appreciate you joiningus a second time.
We're very delighted andexcited for your book.
I know I've bought severalcopies already and they will be
my gifts for the holiday.
Any closing reflections,questions?
Belinda Norma.
Belinda Liu (41:26):
Well, very important one is how do we get
our hands on this preciouswisdom to have some hope for
these times?
How do people find the bookNorma?
Norma Wong (41:36):
Well, you know it's your independent bookseller will
probably have it.
I do have an author's website.
It's normawongcom website.
It's normawongcom, which Iallow the people who love me to
use, even though I had to closemy eyes and take a big gulp when
(41:59):
that occurred and you can go tothat website and there's some
information there and you canclick through and order your
book there and you can clickthrough and order your book.
Omar Brownson (42:13):
Wonderful Well.
Thank you again for joining us.
We appreciate your joy, yourmonkey spirit and all the wisdom
.
So thank you.
Norma Wong (42:19):
Thank you.
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